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- [00:00]
A
Thy ticket, Lady Jennifer of Coolidge. Well, many thanks, good sir.
- [00:05]
B
Here is my Discover card.
- [00:09]
C
They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs?
- [00:11]
A
Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop.
- [00:15]
C
Get it with the times.
- [00:17]
A
With the times. You're playing the loot. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?
- [00:23]
C
Discover is accepted at 99% of places.
- [00:26]
A
That take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report. Mom, I'd like to propose a dinner optim planned for 2026 soccer practice every week. Get back late and you're stressed out about making something fast but actually nutritious for dinner. When Ashley's mom picked me up, I noticed that she made Blue Apron. It came like a little kit and by the time it was ready, I still had shin guards on and it was real food. Fresh veggies, protein, actual flavor. Take her from the younger generation. We're innovators giving a couple Blue Apron meals around. Not the worst idea. Get $50 off your first two orders.
- [00:56]
B
Plus free shipping with code STIR50.
- [00:57]
A
Terms and conditions apply. Visit blue apron.com terms for more.
- [01:03]
D
This episode is brought to you by Royal Match, the free to play mobile game played by millions of people around the world. Football season is busy and whether you're traveling for the holidays, heading out of town for a game, or just stepping away from the family for a few quiet minutes, Royal Match is a great way to unwind. It's free to play, works without wi fi, and has no ads, so it's perfect for flights, road trips, or relaxing on the couch during a break in the action. Did I mention you can also play it while listening to the Athletic Football show or catching up on the latest NFL storylines? Royal Match is a classic Match three puzzle game with great graphics, tons of creative levels, and fun challenges to keep things fresh. You help King Robert restore and decorate his castle as you progress, and with over 10,000 levels, there's always something new to enjoy. Millions of people are already playing, so join the fun. Download Royal Match for free on the App Store or Google Play today.
- [01:55]
A
Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. The NFC south preview is today. Me, Derek Classen, Dave Hellman. I really enjoyed this conversation. I'm more interested in this division than I thought I would be coming into the off season, but there's a lot to be excited about here. We got some young quarterbacks, we got a team with the Bucks that is just consistently very good, was one of the best offenses in the league last year. We hit all of it in depth, so let's just get to that conversation with me, Dave and Derek right now. It's NFC south day on the Athletic Football show. And, and Derek, I am of the opinion that this division gets too much unnecessary flack. I'm genuinely looking forward to several of the conversations that we're going to have on this show. Are we going to talk about the weird Saints team that's quarterback by some combination of Spencer Rattler and Tyler Schuck? Yes. But other than that, I find the other two, three teams in this division really intriguing and I am genuinely excited about digging into this.
- [02:57]
B
Okay, so that's why I think this is going to be really fun because I think I am of the opinion that I don't really care so much about the other three teams and I am weirdly interested in the Saints. So this is going to be a very bizarre conversation.
- [03:08]
A
You, you have been on one all week. I mean, you picking Josh Connerly to win offensive rookie of the year. Like, I just, I'm really impressed by the weird energy that you brought to this entire process.
- [03:17]
B
If everyone is going to be all in on the Washington narrative, I mean somebody's got to be the beneficiary of that.
- [03:23]
C
Okay, but the Saints, that's disgusting. But we'll get, we'll get to it. It's fine.
- [03:27]
A
Dave, I know that you're like a weird NFC south sicko, so I, I can, I feel like we're kindred spirits here and how we're approaching this show.
- [03:34]
C
This is the division I grew up in. So yeah, I am. And, and I think it's funny because I am. I'm a cynical person in my day to day life. I think most people would say that. But in my football watching life, I want to believe the best about people. I want, I want things to be good. I want to see the best case scenario. I want people to have hope for their team. So I've become a little bit of an NFC south weirdo here over the last three years where I'm like, there's more going on here than the Bucks. And by the way, not enough people like the Bucks either. So I'm happy to wear that mantle. I will ride for this division anytime.
- [04:12]
A
Speaking of the Bucks, here's our Bucks Preview for the 2025 season. They're off season in 60 seconds. Josh Grizzard promoted to offensive coordinator from passing game coordinat. Kept Kevin Carberry their offensive line coach and promoted him to the run game coordinator. Retained Chris Godwin three years $66 million guaranteed Hasid Hasan Redick one year $14 million brought back Ben Bredesen who was on a cheap deal last year. 3 years 22 million, 12 and a half guaranteed. Retained Levante David 1 year 9 million. He's gonna be getting that contract into perpetuity until we're all like 70 years old in the draft. Emeka Buca in the first round, 19th overall cornerback Benjamin Morrison in the second round doubled up on corner with Jacob parish in the third round 84th overall drafted edge David Walker in the fourth round. He is out for the season unfortunately lost Robert Hainsey and Joe Tryon Shanka in free agency. Let's dig into it. Derek what are you excited about watching with the 2025 Tampa Bay Buccaneers?
- [05:08]
B
I, I did, I did some simple math here to pick my answer. The most exciting part about this team in general is the offense and the only really new exciting thing that they did around the offense was drafting a Mecca Ibuka in the first round. So I'm just really excited to see how that turns out. I think I believed that from the moment they drafted him before we knew about like how long is Godwin's timeline going to be? Like is Jalen McMillan going to be banged up all this before we knew any of that? It was fascinating to me that they decided they wanted to get out ahead of having so many of these older receivers and go out and draft the Mecca Ibuka. Maybe it's again maybe it was contingency plan for those guys. Maybe it was them just wanting to stave off some regression with all the change that they were going to have and just load up on as much receivers talent as possible. But he is, I think he was weirdly universally agreed upon as like if any wide receiver just comes in as a rookie and has like 900 very solid yards, it's going to be a Mecca Ibuka and I'm very excited to see how that unfolds for him this year.
- [06:03]
A
What do you think about his ceiling as a player? Because I think his he's been painting as painted as this guy who can walk in from day one and be a useful player in an NFL offense and every single report from Bucks training camp is that this is a 10 year pro who is going to have the exact season that you're talking about. But I wonder is there another gear to this especially if Chris Godwin misses significant time and he's going to be put into a role where he's getting a Chris Godlin esque workload in this offense. I may or may not Be asking you this because I ended up with a Mecca Buca in my rookie draft earlier this week and now I'm trying to figure out how excited I should be about this.
- [06:40]
B
I mean, I tend to think that you should be pretty excited. He's never going to be as explosive as, you know, some of the Brian Thomas juniors that we got last year or Malik neighbors, any of those guys. But like if he, he is, I don't know, the ninth best receiver in the way that like a Monroe St. Brown can be, where he's just incredibly stable, really good blocker, you can move him around a little bit inside and outside, just incredibly tough and reliable. I think that is, that's probably his best outcome. But I again, given that I expect him to at least get whatever his B minus outcome is, I won't be shocked if by year four, year five he looks like that kind of player.
- [07:14]
C
You know why all these people like Igbuka so much, right? I figured this out over the last couple of weeks. It's because, yeah, if you watched the highlights, you probably saw his catch against Pittsburgh, you know what he can do as a receiver, but they trust him to do the dirty work. Like they trusted me. By and large. A rookie receiver is not going to come in and be a guy that you can count on to go, you know, get across the formation and just drive the safety out of the play. Right? But I think they trust him to do that. That's what people talk about when they say he's a high IQ player, he can do all that stuff. He's not just here to catch the. And in my experience that gets coaches very excited.
- [07:55]
A
I'm not sure if I'm being just too reductionist here because they're playing in the same team with the same uniform, but the way that Chris Godwin is a really good receiver in the NFL feels like the way that a Mecca Buka in a lot of different facets can be a really good receiver in the NFL. Maybe that's too simple of an answer, but that's just one of the first guys that comes to mind. It's like Chris Godwin, when healthy in the right situations, has been unbelievably productive. And it feels like a Macabuka can be similar to that archetype of player.
- [08:23]
B
And what's funny is that like with God, I think with Godwin in general, it's like, okay, he's a decent yak player, but he's not super fast. He just has like great vision and he's tough and all this stuff. But like, Igbuka is the same way. I mean, we envisioned. We envisioned Ibuka as like this, oh, slot, you know, he blocks, he catches over the middle, all that stuff. But like all their designer Y shit last year in the Ohio State offense was for him. And, you know, we don't imagine him being that kind of speed guy, but he's just really good with the ball in his hands.
- [08:49]
A
What I'm most excited about watching with the Bucks is that this was the most exciting offense in the league last year. For stretches of last season, when you're removing truly elite quarterback play, like the best quarterbacks in the league, this was probably the offense I enjoyed watching the most last season. There were so many layers to what made this offense great. Whether it was some of the things they schemed up in the passing game, like, go watch, go to YouTube. And if there's like a Jalen McMillan High highlight reel, just. Just go watch that. Because it's really just a Liam Cohen highlight reel. Like, that is a look at the structure of this thing and how easy we're making it on the players. If you look at some of the numbers Baker had on just throws behind the line of scrimmage, I mean, the only team, I think they actually might have been dead last. I think they were dead last in the league. And air yards to the sticks. The Bucks were last year and they were one of the most dynamic offenses in football. And Baker threw 41 touchdowns. This thing. And the levers that they were pulling with Liam Cohen. And that's before you even get to the run game, which was incredibly well designed. Bucky Irving comes in and adds an entire another gear to this thing. Mike Evans is still playing at an incredibly high level. And oh, yeah, this might be one of the best four or five offensive lines in the league with a quarterback that even if he's an imperfect player, he's fun as shit to watch. I mean, what he's bringing every single week, I'm happy to tune in for it. So I know we're going to talk about some of the barriers to them being that sort of offense again, but just in terms of appointment viewing on a Sunday or on a Monday, when I'm turning on an offense that I think probably did something cool last yesterday, this is near the top of the list, and I'm just excited about what the encore presentation looks like.
- [10:27]
C
It would be that much closer to the top of the list if they could stop getting banged up, though.
- [10:31]
A
And that's one of the downsides here.
- [10:34]
C
I was so much more excited. And I still am. I still am excited about the Bucks. But before we started doing previews, like back in June, when I was formulating the stuff I wanted to say on the show, I was ready to say that I thought the Bucks were a slam dunk super bowl contender. Like, I would have. I would have put them at the table. And then Tristan Wurfs needs a knee scope and Chris Godwin, we know isn't going to be back until October. Now Jaylen McMillan has this neck strain where he. They're already saying he's out for half the year. They can overcome that stuff. But it dampens my excitement a little bit. Like, instead of, this is a Super bowl contender and people need to know about it. Now I'm like, I hope they can reach that ceiling.
- [11:17]
A
Let's spin it positively for a second. Like, the best case scenario here, Godwin and Worfs, I believe. I think Godwin got taken off the PUP list and his timeline return to play is potentially like early October. So let's just say Ibuka can hold down that number two receiver role within the offense until Godwin gets back. And you drop Godwin, even as a slightly diminished version of himself, back into this thing in October with Tristan Wurfs at the same time. And Josh Grizzard, who we're going to talk about here in a second, gives you something in the realm of what Liam Cohen did last year. We can get there. Like, it might be a little bit harder, but we can get there. And I'm trying to believe in that version of this thing because I want to watch it again.
- [11:58]
B
Well, and like, for me, it's. I do not think they will be as good as they were last year, even if everything goes right. However, if the passing game is as good as it was in 2023 and then the run game is, like, competent in a way that in 2023 they had none of them. Like, yeah, this is still, I don't know, the 12th best offense in the NFL, which again, is not as exciting as last year, but still pretty dang good.
- [12:20]
A
Let's get to the swing points for the 2025 Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Derek, why don't you kick us off? Where could this year pivot in your mind for the Bucks?
- [12:29]
B
I think it kind of has to be Hasan Reddick. For me, like, this was, I know that this was a boxing where if you look at pressure rates and stuff, they weren't that bad. But that's because Todd Bowles is an insane person and turned up the pressure Dial a lot and they were just throwing a lot of bodies at the problem. But I think when you watched on like a player quality basis, this was just not a team that outside of Yahya Diaby really had guys off the edge who could get to the quarterback. They are making a huge bet on Hassan Redick, who did not play a lot of football last year, to really be like a huge, huge contributor. And there's a chance that he can do it because in the handful of years before last season, he was one of the most like, sure fired, going to get 11 sacks and we don't even have to think about it type of players. It's just that when you take, you know, kind of a year off of football and are, you know, transitioning to another new team, I just wonder what that's, what that's going to look like.
- [13:18]
A
Let's say that doesn't happen. Hassan Radek is going to turn 31amonth from today. So this is age 31 season and he did not play football for the most part last year. If this does not go well, how concerned are you about the current state of the Bucs pass rush on the Bucs front?
- [13:35]
B
Overall, Pretty concerned because they didn't really do any other things. Like I know that they've drafted a couple of other guys but you mentioned.
- [13:43]
A
And they lost Walker for the year.
- [13:44]
B
Right? They already, the guy that they drafted to potentially help them here is already out for the year. And like again, none of the other guys to me on the roster are like big time pass rushers. Like I think Anthony Nelson is a smart player who gives them some stuff in terms of like the drop into coverage flexibility, but he's not a superior pass rusher. And Chris Braswell I think is a really good run defending number two edge. He's not a pass rusher. And so if they're not going to get any of these other guys to contribute the way that they would need them to, they either again really need Redick to be this player or like Kalija can see just becomes Grady Jarrett, which I mean, I guess could happen, but that also doesn't solve the edge issue. So I don't know, it definitely won't be good.
- [14:22]
C
I'm not as concerned as I would be just because of who is coaching the Bucs defense. Derek, I think you and I talked about this a few weeks ago. We talked about Hassan Redick as a potential DNA changer for this team. And the funny thing about the Bucks is even without dominant edge rushers, they're top three in the league in sacks since Bulls got to Tampa Bay.
- [14:43]
A
Just.
- [14:43]
C
And we, and we know he loves to blitz. He loves to bring pressure. They'll get pressure by hook or by crook, they'll do it. But that's why I think it's so important, because it is. It's such a floor raiser if you have that guy who can do it on the edge without needing to send extra people. So I think they can get by, but I think it will make them so much more dangerous and such a better team if Redick is that guy.
- [15:08]
B
Yeah. If all the extra shit that you're doing to get to the quarterback is at the expense of also giving up a bunch of other passes, then it's just. It's ultimately not worth it. And I think that's why they've arrived at taking the swing on a guy like Reddick.
- [15:20]
A
I was, I wanted to look up a number while you guys were talking. I done this earlier today. I was trying to find it. They were bottom eight in the NFL in past defense. Success rate went blitzing last year according to next gen. So they do blitz a lot. It's not necessarily a good thing that they have to blitz that much. They were the only team in the league that blitzed on more than half of the other team's third down drop backs last year. And we'll talk about the secondary in a second. And there's a chance the secondary is better and that makes the formula they're using on defense a little bit easier to live with. But if you're. I just think back to like the 20, 21 version of this team. And I know that that's a long time ago now, but when you have dudes and you're bringing five all that's when things start to feel overwhelming. And that's when you watch this version of the Bucks defense, it feels erratic in what they're having to do, not overwhelming. And I think transitioning back to that is. That's what you're trying to do by bringing in a guy like Hassan Redick and hoping the combination of him, Cancy, Diaby, can all collectively bring this group together in a way that just hasn't over the last couple years.
- [16:25]
C
Totally. And yeah, when we talked about it, they haven't had a reliable guy on the edge since Shaq Barrett was doing his thing back when they were a Super bowl contender. And you're so right. I mean, for as good of a reputation as Todd Bowles has, they wound up in shootouts a lot last year. Like it's definitely it's not a fun way to live. And that's why I do have really high hopes for what Bear Reddick can be because it again, it changes the DNA of that defense if there is somebody that can win without needing to send the extra pressure.
- [16:58]
A
My swing point here is just what Baker Mayfield looks like in high leverage situations because he was incredible in high leverage situations Last year he was second in the NFL and drop back success rate on third down only behind Patrick Mahomes. The Bucks as a team last year, Perchu Media had the 6th best 3rd down conversion rate of the past 25 years. If you look at it and the teams that are on that list, it's like the 2011 Saints, the 2006 Colts, the 2004 Vikings and Dante Culpeppers like MVP esque season with Randy Moss, the 2001, the 2022 Bills. Like for the most part these are historically good offenses or offenses with MVP level quarterback play. So I just wonder if they're they're going to fall off. That's not going to happen again, how much of a fall off is there? And this extends not just to what's happening on third down, but what's happening when things get really dirty and muddy for Baker Mayfield specifically. We talked about this a little bit earlier in the summer, Derek, but if you look at the numbers when he was pressured, the only guys who had a higher drop back success rate when pressured last year than Baker May per next gen were Lamar Jackson, Brock Purdy and Joe Burrow. He was third in the NFL in EPA per drop back behind Lamar and Allen on plays where he was pressured. If you look at the last like five or so years, he was like above average in 2023, but not overwhelmingly good. And he was near the top of the league in EPA per drop back. But in 2022 he was dead last in success rate when pressured and he was bottom four in 2021. So this has been an issue for him. It's just the last couple years have been better and last year was significantly better. So if this goes from like top 3ish rates and all of this stuff that's not always sticky down outside the top 10 again, what does that mean overall for the Bucks offense?
- [18:48]
B
And it's probably not going to be sticky because the guys who end up in the top five or six in a lot of those categories in a given year, you get, you know, the Josh Allens or Patrick Mahomes or Lamar Jackson's guys who over time have proven that they have that sort of skill set. And then you get a handful of guys who just like, kind of had a very fortunate season. And that's more how I feel about Baker Mayfield. And that's not to totally take away from him. Like we've talked about it on different shows. He's a much better scrambler now than I think he was earlier in his career, and that is certainly part of it. And I do think when you watch him, he is a little bit more structured and a little bit more stable and a little bit more settled in the pocket and willing to do some of those throws. Like in, in 2020, even in 2023, I was like, okay, he's doing some good stuff, but he still has a ways to go here. 2024, that really felt like the big move up for him. But again, even with that in mind, he's still not Lamar Jackson, he's still not Josh. Like, he's still not one of those guys. It's a lot more likely that he is in the passing offenses. I don't know, again, 11th, 12th, 13th in a lot of these categories than him repeating top five in a lot of that stuff.
- [19:50]
A
I think this team will be good and I'm excited about it. One of my just kind of lingering doubts and bits of skepticism here is that they just went on like a heater at the craps table for six straight hours last year. Like that's what it feels like.
- [20:03]
B
And Baker's that kind of quarterback, right? He's just going to do shit and when it looks good, it looks good.
- [20:08]
A
And the scramble thing is a great thing to bring up. I mean, he was one of the most efficient scramblers in the league last season. Only Jaden Daniels, Jalen Hurts and Kyler created more EPA on scrambles last year when pressured than Baker Mayfield. So that's kind of what I mean. Like there were elements of luck here and how this went in some of these non sticky areas. You throw the screen game in there too. And how hot they ran on screens last year. So just where does all of this fall to me is one of the areas where this season will pivot for the Bucks. Let's get to what's keeping us up at night about this Tampa Bay team. Dave, why don't you kick us off? What is keeping you up at night about the Buccaneers?
- [20:44]
C
You know, I just gave Todd Bowles a big vote of confidence a minute ago, but I'm looking over this team and if we can separate ourselves from the aura of Levante. David, have you looked at the depth Chart for the rest of the linebackers on this team. Like, other than levante David, who's 35 and he's still playing well, I'm not trying to say that he's completely fallen off a cliff, but it's 35 year old Levante David and then. And then what? Because Anthony Walker is like the other veteran. He hasn't had a training camp. It sounds like he's on his way back, but he's not back right now. Dennis Servoisier is the next name that you probably need to know.
- [21:26]
A
Otherwise, Dennis, I serve surv.
- [21:30]
C
See that? That's the problem right there.
- [21:33]
B
I don't think he's that bad. I think he's kind of like, okay, he's good moving forward, backwards in coverage. We've talked about this coverage unit, but moving forward, he's not that bad.
- [21:41]
A
Is it.
- [21:42]
C
Is it enough to feel like that is like that's your only line of defense from like the back end of your depth chart?
- [21:50]
A
I have to believe that Survacier Dennis could be a good NFL player because I need Survacier Dennis to be a prominent part of my life.
- [21:57]
C
I mean, it is an incredible name. Dion Jones is on this step chart, guys.
- [22:02]
B
Okay, that one I'm not going to defend. It's. That ship has sailed. I'm sorry.
- [22:05]
C
Not in the big 2025, you're not. Yeah. And so it feels like you're asking Levante David to do a lot of heavy lifting at the age of 35, which to this point in his career, he has been capable of that. But devil's advocate, the cliff comes for all even sports hipsters. Favorite linebacker.
- [22:23]
A
I mean, by the way, he still is fine there. There was a play in the Washington game, in the wild card game where Jaden Daniels is scrambling and he chases Jaden Daniels down on a third down and like knocks him out of bounds at the sticks. And I was just like, good Lord. 34 year old Levante David. The. The devil's advocate point here is that the Bucks other linebacker, other than Levante David has been bad for a very long time, like since Devin White had that hot stretch a couple years ago been a concern for this team. And I do think if all the other pieces on the defense, which we'll talk about here in a second, are better than they've been over the last couple of years, they can survive.
- [22:59]
C
Robert, how, like, how much confidence do you have that all of that stuff happens, though?
- [23:04]
A
Well, let's get to that. What I'm watching for the first month of the season here with the Bucks is what is this DB room shakeout like? Because they drafted two guys on day two that I think had a chance to start coming into this season. Jacob Parish, I think is going to be this team's nickel corner from day one. They're moving Tyche Smith, who also had some really impressive moments last year as their nickel. I think he is a good player. He's moving to that other safety spot next to Antoine Whitfield. Jacob Parrish is going to be the nickel here. And then Benjamin Morrison's been banged up a little bit in camp. And so it sounds like they're going to start the season with Jamel Dean at that right cornerback spot. But if Benjamin Morrison can eventually crack the lineup, overtake him. And now we have kind of what amounts to three new starters in the secondary. Woodside McCollum, who's a solemn player, and with Antoine Winfield Jr. And this is a group that goes from shaky and uneven to something that we can really trust and becomes a strength of this defense, then I do think that we can be just talking about a different sort of unit. Like we'll just feel different about the Bucks defense over the course of the year. That's like a pie in the sky version of this. But if that happens, then that's one of the things that I feel like could take this team to a level where we're going into the playoffs thinking about them differently than we have over the last couple of years.
- [24:20]
B
Yeah, I mean, and again, like, I, I struggle, I struggle a little bit to be super optimistic because again, these are second and third, third round picks. You know, Tyche Smith himself, even though he was impressive, is a third round pick from last year who's moving positions. It's a lot of like, this is not like top 10 picks that are going to come change the defense. At the same time, a lot of the guys outside of Zion McCollum and especially when Anton Winfield wasn't playing were just like straight up bad last year. And obviously, you know, Tyche Smith was at the N, but now he's not. So that's a little bit complicated. But if they can just be 10% better than they were last year and Hassan Reddit gives you anything, that at least gets this defense closer to average instead of getting bludgeoned on every single passing down. And I think that that could go a decent way. And like, Benjamin Morrison is a tough case because he had so many injuries in college and he's dealing with some again. And so who knows with that one? But Like, Jacob Parish is a scrappy son of a gunman. I kind of liked him. And Tykee Smith, I think he has enough to him that I think moving to safety is not going to be that crazy for him. So I am, again, I don't know about optimistic, but certainly intrigued.
- [25:19]
C
There's a path.
- [25:20]
A
That's how I see it. There is a path for this secondary to feel very different this year than it did at the end of last year when we had Mike Edwards and I mean, there was just. They were piecing this thing together last season with concerns about the pass rush. And at least there are options this year.
- [25:35]
C
It's worth noting. I'm. If Antwan Winfield's healthy, it just makes me feel better about everything. I mean, it's, it, it's. He played half the season last year and I thought he was the best safety in football in 2023. I really did. I thought he was incredible. And if he's even close to that level, it just lessens my concern about all this stuff back there.
- [25:55]
A
Dave, what are you watching over the first month of the season for the Bucks?
- [25:59]
C
So full transparency. This was going to be the thing that was keeping me awake at night because I am a big law of averages guy. And so for me, I look at Todd Bowles, who is a defensive minded head coach, a conservative head coach, painfully so most of the time. He's not somebody that you think of as like at the forefront of the offensive revolution. So I'm sitting there thinking, what are the odds that Todd Bowles did this again and nailed his OC hire after the last two became head coaches? Like, just what are the odds that it works out that well three times in a row? So I've been worried about that for the entire off season, really from the minute it was obvious that Liam Cohen was going to change his mind and go to Jacksonville. Then you start digging into Josh Grizzard and now I'm like, okay, I have a, I have a firm degree of confidence that Todd Bowles actually did do this again. And I'll get into it. Number one, it's worth pointing out too. Like, again, I don't, I don't think people give Todd the credit that you might give a Sean McVeigh for identifying coaching talent. Dave Canales and Liam Cohen came in from. Not in. Like, he had no prior relationship with those guys. They came in from Seattle and la, respectively. Whether, you know, he got help from his network or whatever, he identified those guys himself. And then last year, when Liam Cohen's here, he Tabs, Josh Grizzard from Miami who is working under Mike McDaniel. And for me, when I hear Mike McDaniel, for all the critiques we might have about the Dolphins, that gets me excited from just a play calling and design standpoint. Guy played at Yale, got his masters at Duke, worked under David Cutcliffe while he was at Duke. He's been with Adam Gase and now Mike McDaniel and the dolphins. He was in Miami for quite a while. And by the way, he crossed paths with Ben Johnson while he was there and they have a relationship as well. Like, the guy's got connections to all the people that you would want your OC to have connections to. And he was here with Liam Cohen last year. Like, it's not like he's coming in blind like Canales and Cohen did. He spent the year in Tampa working with Cohen. Cohen tried to bring him to Jacksonville and the Jags blocked it. So I hear all of that stuff and it's incredibly intriguing. We know the Bucks have good offensive talent. I did a total 1 80. From thinking like, ah, what are the odds that this will be a good hire again to like, I think this was a pretty good hire.
- [28:32]
A
My concern, I think that they'll be fine, right? Like, I have faith in this working. I think retaining Kevin Carberry, their offensive line coach and the run game coordinator, based on how the run game was structured last year, something that you can get excited about. For me, it's just how far do they fall down? Is this going from the fourth best offense in the league to the eighth best offense in the league? Or is this going from the 4th best offense in the league to the 14th best offense in the league? And I just don't know where that's going to land. And that's why I don't know how to feel about what this team is going to be this year.
- [29:01]
C
Is it a guarantee that they fall that far?
- [29:04]
A
Like, I mean, I think they, I do not. I think it's going to be very hard for them to be as good as they were last season. Just for all the reasons I said for, like in those high leverage moments in these things that tend to be volatile. So what is it? Is it again, are they still like a firmly top 10 unit or does this fall they were 20th in a lot of the metrics that you want to look at from 2023 before Liam Cohen got there, the offensive line talent is undeniably better. You drop Graham Barton in, Cody Mock takes a step forward in year two G has really leveled Up Bredesen was a nice little fine. We know what Tristan Worf says. That group is better than it was in 2023. But a lot of the other component parts were similar to what they were under Canalis when they were a slightly below average offense. So between those two polls, what they were with Liam Cohen and what they were with Canales, where do they fall with Grizzard? Because if the defense isn't going to be objectively very good, the offense is going to have to carry this thing. And I wonder how much firepower they're going to have to do that.
- [29:59]
C
I think they can do it. And yeah, I mean, re, like repeating as a top five offense is maybe I'm not willing to be that bold. But like, especially if we're getting a healthy amount of games from Tristan Wurfs, like, I feel pretty good about it.
- [30:15]
A
Just like little things like Grizzard is figuring out whether he still wants to call place from the sideline or the booth, like that's something they're still working through. That doesn't mean anything.
- [30:23]
B
Might be great that they're thinking about that makes me itchy.
- [30:25]
A
I don't know. It's a product and it's just something to keep in mind when you've never done this before. Even if the ideas are good, there is going to be uncertainty with how it's ultimately going to manifest with this offense. And until we know how good the defense is going to be, I think that has to be in front of mind and especially when you consider the goals that this team has this year. So let's talk about that. Dave, in your mind, what does success look like for the 20, 25 bucks?
- [30:52]
C
I mean, I think there's no reason to think if this team is as good as I think they are or as good as they think they are, like they should win the division again, get back to the playoffs and just look like you belong. Whether that means winning a wild card game or just playing a really competitive wild card game, I'd like to see them get back to divisional weekend. And much like two years ago, like, if they get to divisional weekend and they look like they belong in that final eight, that's pretty good. I, you know, I'd love to see them take that next step. Like I said, I'm so tempted to say that I think they're a conference championship game kind of team. But. But there's just enough uncertainty with the personnel, with the injuries and then the new coach on the offensive side. There's enough there where I can't go that far, but divisional weekend would be nice.
- [31:44]
B
I think I've landed on just stave off the Falcons, like whatever that means and whatever that requires. That to me, I think is success.
- [31:52]
A
That's not enough for me. They've done that the last couple years. I want to see some sort of progress. Even if we have all of those concerns and all those questions that Dave talked about, I don't mind asking them to, like, go to the NFC Championship game. All I want that feels different than the last couple years. Can you win a playoff game against a team that is not actively imploding because their playoff win over the last few years was over that 2023 to Eagles team that's actively imploding? So show us that you can win a playoff game against a team that is not collapsing in real time and that with one more year from the young defensive players that you drafted from all the talent that we have on this team when we go into 2026. Dave, are they one of those teams that when we do a seat at the table, we don't even talk about them? It was just like, well, of course, I mean, the Bucks are absolutely a Super bowl contender. That combination of stuff, that's what feels like success to me this year.
- [32:45]
C
And they haven't graduated to that category. To your point, like every year, people aren't sold on the Bucks and they've been defying those expectations to this point. But you got to keep doing it. And on top of that, if they do, if, if they do last season all over again, if, if we argue about how good they are for 18 weeks and then they go one and done in the playoffs, like, that's going to be a tough pill to swallow. So that's, yeah, it's. It's gotta be something more than losing control of a game in the fourth quarter of Wildcard weekend like they did last year.
- [33:16]
A
We're going to take a quick break here and then we're going to get back with our 2025 Atlanta Falcons preview.
- [33:22]
D
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- [34:39]
C
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- [36:14]
A
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D
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C
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D
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- [37:13]
A
As we dig into our Falcons preview here, just a quick heads up. If you're watching this on YouTube, we'd love if you liked and subscribed to the channel. Please let us know your thoughts thoughts below. What you think the Falcons are going to be this year where we think where you think this stuff is right. Where you think it's wrong. We would sincerely appreciate that. Let's get to the Falcons off season in 60 seconds. Hire Jeff Ulbrich as their defensive coordinator. Extended Jake Matthews two years, 45 million $38 million guaranteed signed Leonard Floyd one year 10 million retained Mike Hughes, the cornerback three years, 16 million, nine and a half guaranteed lost Drew Dalman and Grady Jarrett to the Bears in free agency. Notable draft picks Jalen Walker in the first round edge rusher edge rusher James Pierce in the first round as well. Traded up including a 2026 first round pick to get James Pierce. Xavier Watts, the safety in the third round. Billy Bowman who is in the nickel mix for this team in the fourth round out of Oklahoma. Derek what are you excited to watch with the 2025 Atlanta Falcons?
- [38:11]
B
Regardless of whatever, we don't know the quality of play we're going to get from the quarterback yet, but I do know he's going to throw the piss out of the ball and he's going to throw it far down the field and they have one of my favorite receivers for that and we already have proo concept that Michael Penix loves. Drake London like I actually this is something that I think a lot of people have already pointed out but like when you look at the numbers for what Drake London was doing when in the three games that Michael Penix played, Drake London led the NFL in targets in yards and first downs in the final three weeks of the season he had a 39.4% target share which was the highest in the NFL over that span. But also if you had like run that out for the entire season would have also been first just over Pukinakua who was at like 38 and a half half percent. So this was already a team that fed Drake London a lot as they should have and Kirk Cousins was doing that. But now they have a quarterback who you know and I think we said this when they drafted Michael Penix who is the receiver on the Falcons who most resembles what Roman Dunes a was in college. It's Drake London. And we knew that Michael Penix would throw the hell out of the ball to Roman Duzay because he's just going to go find the ball and London obviously gives them to that. So I'm just very excited to see what the basketball offense kind of looks like for those two.
- [39:22]
A
I will say one bit of context. Darnold Mooney was hurt for one of those games where Drake London got like 19 targets. So that's just one thing to keep in mind as you consider what might be driving some of that. But absolutely this thing is going to be built through Drake London. Like we know that he's going to get a shitload of work within this offense. And I'm right with you here. Like I we talked about this on our half bake take show earlier this year. Like I'm pumped about what this offense could potentially look like with Michael Penix. If you look at just some of the underlying numbers from Michael Penix last year he had a 9% big time throw rate in his three starts according to PFF. That would have led the leak. Josh Allen was at 7% for all of last season in his MVP season. You combine that and we know it. I mean I could throw out like 10 incredible throws he had in those three games. Like he has unbelievable like staggering arm talent. You combine that with just not having negative plays. There are accuracy issues but the true like huge downside negative plays get a 1.7% turnover worthy play rate over that same stretch that would have been tied for the league lead. So you'd been tied for the league lead in big time throw rate and turnover worthy throw rate and he had a 12.1% pressure to sacrate in those three starts that would have been behind Only Lamar Jackson last year. So when you combine like the high end stuff with the, with a lack of low end stuff, that's how I can start getting excited about what he can be within an offense that I think has the requisite amount of talent and I think is designed in a way that can get me pretty pumped.
- [41:01]
B
So I understand I'm the Michael Penix skeptic here, but like how much of the numbers like that should we be doing with like 100 pass attempts against three of the worst pass defenses in the entire NFL? That just feels like very fraught to me.
- [41:16]
A
I, that's, I completely understand that. I think from a process perspective though, the, the sack taking I think is just a part of the sack taking a quarterback. So I think that to me is something I will believe in and I think the aggressiveness and the arm talent, it's undeniable. Like, I think he will play this way with this style and those throws are available to him. I'll say this, and I don't want to read too much into the conversations I have at these places and the tones of those conversations. When you go to some of these teams and you're talking about the players and even the quarterback, there are teams that are realistic, right? Like they want the guy to be good, but there's, yeah, you know, we're not exactly sure how this guy is going to be. When you talk to people in the Falcons building and people on that offensive staff, they are true believers. Like in their minds this is a special guy who is going to be a special player. Just some of the elements of what he's doing at training camp and how he's moving people with his eyes and just the awareness that he plays with him, getting to certain checkdowns, like the process within the offense, you combine that with the talent and they're just like fully bought in to him being one of those quarterbacks, like Matthew Stafford's name comes out of their mouth over and over and over again when they talk about this guy. And I don't know if we're ultimately going to get there, but I can tell you that's the level of excitement that exists within that building.
- [42:38]
C
We obviously can't say that he's going to get there, but I disagree for the record, just because I've seen even first round picks, I've seen way too many guys get thrown in and just not look ready for it. And Michael Penix looked so ready. And like what was the story he found out while he was at Costco on like a Tuesday night that it wasn't going to be Kirk anymore. And by Sunday he just, he, he didn't look overwhelmed, that's for damn sure. It was very, very impressive. And it, it registered for me on a level beyond like, oh, well this, you know, the, it's a good situation. No, I thought it was, it was much more than that. Michael Penck was the, he was an end credit scene to a Marvel movie where like the season's winding down. Like it's the, the movie's over.
- [43:27]
B
Generous way to explain the Falcons.
- [43:29]
C
And then it's like a new Avenger is coming in 2026. Like, hang on for the new guy. That's how I felt about Michael Penck.
- [43:36]
A
I completely understand the accuracy worries. There were sprays last year that were tough, tough support. Right. It's tough to like talk those away. But I think some of the things they worked on with him when it comes to his base and staying on top of the ball as a thrower, like these are all things that they're aware of, even some of the touch issues that we've talked about. Derek, like they're working on the right stuff. And I think that extends for me to some of the gaps in the offense. And when you look at what they were offensively last year, they were incredibly explosive when Pennix got in there. But this is still a team that wasn't pulling levers to push the ball down the field. They had a bottom of the league play action rate with Kirk and they continued to do that with Pennx. But I think that's partially a product of changing quarterbacks midstream. Like I feel like one of the areas, a couple areas that I think they've really drilled down on this offseason are what sort of play action concepts down the field can we activate now with this guy as our quarterback so we can continually pump the ball downfield. And the other thing that I was, it was good to hear was how can we be more explosive on the ground. Right. They were incredibly efficient as a run team last year. I think they had the best rushing efficiency rate in the NFL per success rate according to Next Gen. They were not an explosive running team. I want to say Bijan had like four or five runs of 30 plus yards. And one of the things, one of the areas where you can seek out these explosives on the ground is by changing up and having complimentary runs within your offense. This is a zone based team in a way that not that many teams in the NFL are anymore. But I think this is the year where you're going to see them. What are the changeups? What are the things that we can do to haunt out those explosives with a guy who has the talent to do it. We just haven't seen it happen before. So all the ways that they've thought about adding wrinkles and layers to who they're going to be this year based on the talent, which is pretty damn good to start with. I'm just encouraged by the vision for how they want this to go. Let's get to these swing points for the 2025 Falcons. Dave, why don't you kick us off here?
- [45:33]
C
I deeply appreciate how easy the Falcons have made this on us. Like you can dig into minutia if you want to, but I think that's being intellectually dishonest. Cause there's two things we already talked about. Pinnocks. And then on the defensive side, Terry Fontenot was just like, we're gearing up at edge rusher and we're doing it as recklessly as possible, in my opinion. For the record, I, I've said many times I hated what they did in the draft. It just felt unnecessary to move that amount of capital around to get two edge rushers. But if it works, then you can really supercharge this thing. If you're right, if you're right about Jalen Walker, if you're right about James Pierce Jr. Leonard Floyd on the defensive side of the ball was the main addition. And Leonard Floyd can definitely be an exciting piece of your pass rush, especially if one, preferably both of these rookies hit. And you know, I'm sure the Falcons are imagining a Rams like effect where Verse and Fisk just turned that thing into a level beyond what anybody saw coming. Are they going to be right to the degree that they're fine not having a first round pick next year, I would like to see it to believe it. But if it happens, then I think it changes the complexion of, of this whole team.
- [46:53]
B
Really my biggest struggle with all of this is that. So I was a little bit iffy on what Jalen Walker could be coming into the NFL. I just didn't know if he was supposed to be an edge player. Do you make him like Frankie Luvu where he's a little bit of both? Like, do you make him off ball, whatever. The fact that they have purely sold him as an edge player is to me a little bit like it just feels like there would have been. You drafted a player like that to do a lot with him and if they really think that he can Just purely be a special edge player. That's fine. He definitely has the length, the violence, the speed to do it. It's just, it feels like especially in year one, we're asking a lot of, of a player like that.
- [47:29]
A
I think it's the opposite. I think they're seeing it the opposite way where in year one they just want to keep the scope as limited as they can. So he's working on the stuff that he needs the most work on. Like when they're talking about him as an edge rusher and what he needs to develop. We see that all the time though. I mean there, I think there are a lot of defensive coaches when they're talking about young players. Let's keep it as simple and as narrow as we can early in their career and then maybe we start expanding it. This team feels good about their off ball linebacker group. Like they're excited about Cade Nellis. They think that the divine diablo fits what they want to be. They need edge help. You look at the numbers. Last year they had a 32.4% pressure rate when bringing five.
- [48:10]
B
Is amazing.
- [48:12]
A
Specifically that was less than seven teams bringing four. It was 31st in the NFL. They had a they on a fewer than a third of the dropbacks where they blitzed last year. Year they got pressure. This team needs pass rushers. And so just allowing him to be a terror off the edge in year one and allowing him to just focus on that, I can understand it. If you want to start expanding that and using him as more of a Swiss army knife as he gets a little bit deeper in his career, fine. But right now, just saying I want you to go get the quarterback on third and seven. That's what this team needs more than anything else.
- [48:47]
C
And you know what? To be generous to them. Having said that, I don't love what they did. If it works. Like, I found myself kind of nodding my head at what the Falcons have. If we just assume that, that the rookies hit or at least if Jalen Walker hits. Like I went back and watched Arnold Etty last night. I just went and watched highlights of, of his play and I was like, you know, if this guy was your third best pass rusher, I'd feel a hell of a lot better about that. Like he's, he's got good bend and he's just got a high motor. Like a lot of his sack are just pure effort plays. And if that's your third guy, I like that. And if they're really right, if both of these rookies are something Then he's your fourth guy. Like, if you can really count on Pierce and Walker and Ebiketty and Leonard Floyd are 3 and 4 or whatever order you want to put it, it doesn't really matter. Like, if all of those guys are humming, that's pretty fun. I'm dubious about it actually being that clean. I understand the vision. I guess I understand where it could go. I just. I need to see proof of concept before I get too excited about it.
- [49:58]
B
I'll be clear. I'm probably being blinded by selfishness that I just kind of want to see Jalen Walker do all the other stuff. But you make a good point, Robert, that, like, for the interest of the team in year one, when these guys are kind of trying to save their jobs, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense to ask him to do 800 things.
- [50:14]
A
Two things I want to be clear about. One, I do not support the James Pierce decision in any way, shape or form. Trading a future first round pick for James Pierce. James Pierce is not okay. And I think it's another misstep in process and with a regime that we've seen make plenty of them over the last few years. The Jalen Walker part, I think one reason just to kind of tamp down any excitement about this. He's been banged up for a huge portion of training camp. And as somebody that was kind of changing positions coming into the league, they were really encouraged and optimistic about what his development timeline was going to look like just based on how he's wired. Like, the thought was something that refinement that we're talking about as a pass rusher, that might take some guys a long time because they have a white way to go. It wasn't going to take him as long because of what he's like as a person, just a son of a coach, all that stuff, they were very encouraged by that. He's missed over half of their padded practices. So now the guy that you drafted in the top half of the first round that you thought was going to be the dude to supercharge your pass rush has missed a huge chunk of training camp. And James Pierce, while a productive pass rusher in college, I think there was a reason that there were some doubts about what he was going to be in the NFL. So this is another one of those scenarios, Dave, where investments don't necessarily equal results. And if they don't, then we might be in a tough spot with this Falcons defense.
- [51:32]
C
That's. That's what I'm saying is it's easy to sit there and be like, well, the Rams just did this. And I'm here to say that's a rare, rare thing. Like we shouldn't, shouldn't we should think.
- [51:41]
A
Of two more different players than Jared versus and James Pierce.
- [51:44]
B
James Pierce. Yeah, exactly.
- [51:45]
C
Well, I'm not even, I'm not even talking about player types, but yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean, that's completely fair. But just the idea that you're like, yeah, we're going to spend back to back picks on this and they're both highly ranked and they're going to change the whole thing overnight. I just, I don't think it's realistic. And you're 100% right. I mean, Jared Verse is a much more complete player than either one of these guys, in my opinion at least. And so, so it's, it, it's, it's theoretically possible. I can just like, I'm couching my words because I can imagine this rant being on a Falcons hype video in December when these guys are in the rookie of the year chase. I mean, it's, it's theoretically possible, but it's tough for me to believe that it works out that beautifully. And Derek made a point worth mentioning is I think Terry Fontenot needs to show something here if we're going to keep going with this regime, right. Like this is year five and if they don't have a playoff appearance to put behind it. Now you're talking about bringing in a new regime that doesn't have a first round pick. If this doesn't go the way you want it to, it's, and that, to be clear, that won't be Terry Fontenot's problem and that's probably why he did it, or at least part of it. But it makes me nervous. It makes me nervous. I'd rather have Jalen Walker and a second round pick and know that I can keep that powder dry for next year. But if, if it works, then, then more power to them and they can gloat all they want want.
- [53:07]
A
Let's talk about what's worrying us here. You said you're worried about that. Here's what I'm worried about. I'm worried about the fragility of the offense. That's what's keeping me up at night. We have questions about the defense, but I do think the offense is more fragile than we want to believe it is after the flashes we saw from them at the end of last season. Darnell Mooney, who I think stylistically is a Fantastic fit with Michael Penck. Like what Darnell Mooney does on some of those outbreaking vertical routes. He is exactly what you want as like a secondary complimentary piece with Michael Penix. He's hurt. They don't know. He's hopefully going to be back early in the season, but he's missed the majority of training camp. And now Caleb McGarry gets carted off earlier this week. We don't know how much time he's going to miss. Their starting right tackle, their swing tackle, Storm Norton is also hurt and I think is out for the entire season. And why this matters is that going back to the Terry Fonteno point, Dave, this team added no offensive players this offseason season. None. And this is to me the mark of a shortsighted front office. This is where you see teams make mistakes, where they think, okay, all we need to do is fix the problem that was bad for us last year and as long as we do that, everything else is going to be great. And that's just not how any of this works. And so the fact that they built in no redundancies for the offense because they were put converting so many resources to the defense puts you in a spot. Whereas a team that played 86% 11 personnel last year and only has three receivers, if one of those receivers gets hurt and now your offensive line that was shockingly healthy last year except for the center that is no longer here and his backup is now playing. If you miss half the season from one of those guys, you start to chip away at the best version of this offense very, very quickly and to.
- [54:52]
B
The point of like short sighted team building. Think about the team. We just talked about Jason Light and what he did with the Bucks.
- [54:57]
A
They were perfect comparison.
- [54:59]
B
They were like the fifth best offense in the league and said, you know what, we want to get a year ahead of the receiver thing and we're going to go draft the Mecca. Ibuka and the Falcons continually do the exact opposite of that. And that is why there's a number of reasons I feel a little bit icky about this team, but that is certainly one of them. And then again, the Caleb McGarry, Storm Norton thing, when you lose both of your potential right tackles for any team, that's a huge deal. And I know that Michael Penix is better about getting the ball out than most other quarterbacks, but this is his blind side for a guy who is like, it's just, it's a very, it's his blind side for a guy who is going to first time Be like a full time starting quarterback. That's just again, even if we think he's good at getting the ball out, you're just going to get hit more than you would probably like. And that's a little bit scary to me.
- [55:39]
A
And he's a pocket based quarterback. Like that's who he is. He's not going to mitigate. He's not going to deal with like unblocked pressure in a way that some of these other young quarterbacks are. Stylistically, he needs to be kept clean to be the guy that we want him to be. And now you're going into the season season with a massive question mark at one of your tackle spots on top.
- [55:57]
C
Of what it obviously means for Michael Pennix Jr. Do you guys are y' all aware Bijan Robinson took like his set, his carry count, his carry splits, 73.8% of his attempts went outside the tackles. That's like among guys that had a lot of carries that is in a different stratosphere, like offense, Alvin Camara and Devon Hn are the only guys that even come close to how often he was doing it. And per NFL Jesus, they were so much better doing it off of right tackle than left. Like by a lot. Like they were our averaging 4 1/2 5 yards per carry going off the right side. So if your right tackle and your swing tackle are down, that's very scary for both components of your offense. Yeah, that. I mean I was, I very fittingly, I was doing my notes for the Falcons when the Caleb McGarry injury happened and I was like, well, I know the answer to what's keeping me up at night. It's that that's very easy.
- [56:58]
A
The last thing before we transition to some of the defensive talk here that I did not mention when discussing like the structure of the offense. My one of my predictions for this team is they lead the league in pistol snaps, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing because I do think it's a way to combine your quarterback being comfortable in the shotgun. And I think that there are certain things they can activate from a play action pass perspective there. And there are actually elements of their run game that they think work better from the pistol than they do from under center or the gun. So this team leading the league in that and having it be kind of the foundation of their offense in a way that it isn't with a lot of other teams. Just something to keep an eye on as we get into the season. What else we're watching over the first month of the season. Derek, what are you watching for the first four weeks with the Atlanta Falcons.
- [57:42]
B
In terms of, you know, draft picks? The two first round pass rushers are the big one, but they also spent two picks in the secondary and this is a secondary that was very bad last year and didn't really add or retain that many like veteran players. Obviously they brought back Mike Hughes, but I don't think he should be prohibitive to anything, you know, insane going on there. So they drafted a safety, Xavier Watts in the third round who I actually liked a little bit coming out of the draft and you know, maybe he can be a player for them. And then Billy Bowman out of Oklahoma to potentially play the nickel for them. They, they need one of them to be good. This is not a, we hope this works out for us and this can change things for us a little bit. No, like this, they need one of these players to be at least a like C plus level starter. And if they don't, I, I think this defense is just going to get fried again. It's going to be A.J. terrell and Jesse Bates just holding on for their lives.
- [58:30]
A
Yeah, that other outside cornerback spot like Mike Hughes got that contract of, we can live with this, but we probably want to upgrade. It's the exact type of contract Mike Hughes got. It's the same one Mike Jackson got, which we're going to talk about in a second with Carolina. I think Billy Bowman is not necessarily a guarantee to crack the starting lineup solely because D. Alford is a solid player. Like, I think that's the reason that Billy Bowman might not start. If Xavier Watts doesn't start and doesn't have an impact. That's a concern and I think it's probably trending in that direction. I would be surprised if we look at this at the end of the season and Jesse Bates and Xavier Watts aren't the two Falcon safeties that got the most snaps. My what I'm watching over the first month of the season, let's stick with the defense. What does this defense look like with Jeff Ulbrich as the defensive coordinator? I mean this group, it was one of the biggest questions I had when he got hired. The last couple of regimes they've had with Dean Pease and Ryan Nielsen and then into Jimmy Lake. I mean this was a odd front 34 type team that is playing a very different sort of style of defense than what Jeff Ulbricht did when he was with the Jets. And so where do they fall between those two systems with the personnel that they have and I do think that Jeff Ulbricht said something really interesting when he got hired and it was just that he kind of had like an awakening about like how you should be playing defensive football. I think he's been a lot more open minded than some of the stylistic choices the jets would make would lead you to believe. Like the jets were a four down attack front. That's what they had been all the time when Joe Fulbright was the defensive coordinator. I would not be surprised if you saw a little bit of a blend of some of that four down stuff with some of the more odd front stuff that this team has done in the past, partially because of the personnel, but partially because front diversification is a way to kind of keep offenses a little bit off balance compared to what they were doing with the jets, where you're just getting teed off on over and over and over again. And you can do that when you have really, really good players who are fluent in that system. There is none of that here. I do think that some of the younger players they have can take to this attacking style because they're not used to playing any other way. But I would not be surprised if there was a little bit more of a difference between how those guys played and then on the back end. This is just very different stylistically from what the Falcons were doing a year ago. Like the number that jumped out to me, Atlanta's corners last year year played off coverage 71% of the time, which was the highest rate in the league. They had the third most average cushion of any quarterback group in the NFL per Next Gen. The jets were bottom 10. This team is going to play a lot more man. They're going to be a lot more aggressive. And I'm just curious how all of that shakes out when you combine the differences up front and the differences on the back end and whether or not this is a good thing for the Falcons moving forward.
- [61:14]
B
The front is the hardest part of it for me to figure out. Like AJ Terrell taking to more man coverage. Like he's a pretty good.
- [61:20]
A
That'll happen.
- [61:20]
B
Yeah, that's going to be fine.
- [61:22]
A
He's.
- [61:22]
B
He's really good. And like Jesse Bates doing whatever he's going to do if he gets to be maybe in a man coverage world a little bit more of a freelancer at times. I think that could obviously work out for them. It's the front to me and it's not just the, that they have all these different body types and stuff like that and maybe different marriages, but like all of the Guys that they drafted last year, we have no idea if they're any good. Like Ruke Ororo, we have no idea if he's any anything. Brandon Dorlis, we have no idea if he's anything. Braylon Trice I believe missed all of last year. I liked him as a prospect, but if he's a guy who's coming off injury, was kind of drafted for the last system is really more of like a bigger run defender. What is his role in this, all this going to be? So it's just a lot of like they are more than most other units. Like I truly don't know what to think until we get to October and.
- [62:05]
A
We talk about the edge rushers. Which of those interior guys hit. They need one or two of those guys to turn into players. Like they need Dorlis or Rukaro, some of those guys to be impactful for this to all come together. It can't just be one or two of the young edge players because if they combine that with like zero push up front. David Anamada is getting deeper into his 30s. Like they've spent so many resources on the interior defensive line specifically they need one or two of those guys to be significant contributors for this to all work. Let's get into what a successful season looks like for the 2025 Falcons. Dave, what do you got for me?
- [62:45]
C
This is where I'll be the NFC south apologist. Cause I think we need to see playoff success. Not even we need to see them in the playoffs. We need to see Terry Fontenot's vision come to fruition in some way. I don't necessarily think they need to win the division and that's just because if Michael Penix is good then this could be a wild card team. We were talking about this in the pre production meeting. I think people get so locked into their ideas of, of what a division is where it's like, okay, this is, this is going to be the 4 seed and they're going to ho like they're going to have a wild card game and they'll probably lose it. Which is ironic because the Bucks weren't even the four seed last year. But that's how people view this division. And I think if Michael Penck is good, there's no reason that the Bucks and Falcons can't both make the playoffs. Like they could both be, you know, one 11 win, one 10 win team and sneak in there. And so I just, I need the Falcons in the playoffs. It would be more fun for them if they finally took the division from Tampa. But as long as they get there, I don't care if it's another year without the postseason, then I think that's very dicey for Terry Fontenot.
- [63:54]
B
I think more than most other teams they have to make the playoffs. Like I think for a lot of other teams it can be like in this like general range it would be like, okay, it would be nice. You know, we got young quarterback, as long as he looks good, we'll be fine. I just, there's too many other good parts, good skill players on this team for that to be the case. Like you, you kind of have to get 10 wins and in.
- [64:12]
A
It's such a strange marriage of timelines because you have a second year quarterback and you need to make the playoffs. And that's just the nature of what this has looked like and how they've built over the last couple years. Satina signed Kirk Cousins in free agency last year. Like their timeline is much stranger than any of the other teams that have second year quarterbacks.
- [64:28]
C
Real quick, that's a funny point that I was thinking about when you were talking about Jeff Ulbricht because you're like, well some of these guys from previous years don't fit the scheme. That's a weird thing to say when the GM is the same like Terry Fonteno brought these guys in and now they might not fit what the new DC wants to do. That's what happens when the GM survives a coaching change.
- [64:47]
A
I don't necessarily think there are that many guys who aren't fit for this system. Like Arnold Etty body type wise is probably the only one. Like if you look at the other guys, they're just big, strong, athletic defensive linemen. There, there are no players in talking to the defensive staff there where they're like, eh, he's kind of a weird, weird square peg, round hole guy for what we're trying to do. There is none of that. And so I do think they think there can be a smooth transition in part because I don't think there, there will be a wholesale transition from what they were doing last year to the, what the jets were doing. I don't think that's what you're gonna see.
- [65:19]
C
That's probably good process on their part then, which. Yeah, but I, it's. I just think it's. You're in an interesting situation where the GM survived coaching turnover as well as major quarterback decisions which are both things that Terry Fontenot has done in the last year or two.
- [65:37]
A
I'm with you guys. I think they have to make the playoffs for this to be a success. And I also think Michael Pennock carrying over the good elements of what we saw last year, even if, you know, turned down a tiny bit, I don't think he has to lead the league and like the amount of explosive passes this team has. But if Michael Pennockson the decision making, the arm talent, all the things that flashed last year carry over and some of those things that were a little bit more volatile, Derek, we've talked about them like the lack of touch, some of the sprays that can get cleaned up. I do think that that version of him plus a playoff win that is success for this team that took that quarterback eighth overall last year.
- [66:13]
B
Yeah, if he looks like the whole weird taking him at eighth overall when we already have a quarterback thing is no longer a thing that anyone thinks about about that's clearly success.
- [66:22]
A
It's a great way to frame it. Let's get to our next one here, our Preview for the 2025 Carolina Panthers. The Panthers offseason in 60 seconds. Extended JC Horn, four years, $100 million $72 million guaranteed. Good for you. Extended Tommy Tremble, Andy Dalton, Austin Corbett. Brought in Treven Merri in free agency three years, 51 million, 34 and a half guaranteed at safety. Signed to Sean Wharton, Bobby Brown and Patrick Jones up front. All to pretty decent like mid tier free agent deals. Also retained Micha at corner and brought in Rico Dowdle as their number two running back after Jonathan Brooks had that horrendous injury last year, which I'm still bummed about. Lost Xavier woods and Ian Thomas in free agency in the draft. Tedroa McMillan, 8th overall receiver, edge Nick Scorton in the second round, 51st overall. Edge Princely Umanmielen in the third round, 77th overall. Brought in Trevor Etn in the fourth round at running back and then Lathan Ransom, the safety in the fourth round. Dave, what are you excited about with the 2025 Carolina Panthers?
- [67:23]
C
I'm going to lay my cards on the table here and just say that I feel like I have things at stake with the Carolina Panthers because that's.
- [67:32]
B
A bad place to be.
- [67:33]
C
I agree, I agree. Especially after the ride we've been on since 2023. But I, I believed wholeheartedly in Bryce Young. I really did. I had no problem with him being the number one overall pick. I understood the size concerns. But he was just a magical player to watch in college, man. Like his, his understanding of, of spacing and his vision. And it was almost like watching Chris Paul the way that he just like, it's like he saw an extra dimension.
- [68:02]
A
And I like that comparison. I really like that comparison, actually.
- [68:06]
C
He, he was doing shit where you're just like, how did he even see that? And how does it seem like he saw it two seconds before anybody else thought? And I just, I knew. And he did it at Alabama, which carries weight for me when you're doing it in games where there's tons of NFL players on the field. And so even knowing that he was a small guy, I just believed. I knew he was going to be the man. And it shook my faith in who I am as a football fan. When we watched the first year and the first few games of last year, I was like, holy, do I know anything about this sport? And so it was very exciting for me to see him resuscitate and to see him play with confidence and be able to point at the highlights and be like, look. Yeah, that's what I loved. That's what I liked about Bryce Young. And I'm just, I'm so excited to see if he can keep doing it. I feel a little bit vindicated just from last year, but I need it. I need it for a whole year. Like, I mean, I hope the guy can prove, prove that he's a franchise quarterback. He doesn't need to be top 5 or top 10 or any of that crazy shit. I just need him to be somebody worth building a team around. I'm excited to see if he can do it and my self esteem is tied to it a little bit.
- [69:19]
A
I think I don't have that much at stake. But I'm also very excited about watching Bryce Young. I said year two. Bryce Young. This, I'm saying this is year two. Yeah, this is year two, Bryce Young.
- [69:30]
B
I basically did this with Trevor Lawrence so you can have this with Bryce Young where I was like the first year. The Urban Meyer. That's not. No, we're not doing that.
- [69:38]
A
There are undeniable limitations to what Bryce Young is eventually going to be able to become as an NFL quarterback. Like there are areas of the field he's just not going to be able to access because he has a limited arm compared to some of these other guys. And it's kind of funny the comparison I'm about to make, but there is a comparison here. And it's why I, I guess have faith in both of these guys. But also I'm just kind of rooting for them. And it's Michael Panix and Bryce Young and it's because, because the Two things I love most about quarterback play are do you play? And I've said this before about Bryce Young when we were talking about the top 10 offenses show Derek, do you play with anticipation and aggressiveness? If you play with those two things, I'm in. I want to watch that. That is stylistically what I want in a quarterback. And even if Michael Penix has four times the arm that Bryce Young does, both of those guys play with anticipation and aggressiveness. And that was my favorite part about watching Bryce Young last year. And you combine that, that with some of the off schedule stuff outside of the pocket. We saw it in the preseason game. Like I'm just intrigued by this. I don't know what the ceiling of it is, but I know after the back half of last season I want more of it because it wasn't just to me like some feel good story. It was football. I liked watching. And that's why I'm excited to tune into this again.
- [70:53]
B
I really don't want to be the Grinch here. Like I'm really struggling not to be. But he just.
- [70:58]
C
So don't do it. It, don't do it.
- [70:59]
B
I'm going to do it a little bit. Like I just, I, I also generally love and Robert, we've talked about this a little bit. Quarterbacks who can anticipate and can be really aggressive. And I think with Michael Pennock specifically, I'm a little bit more open to what the ceiling might look like because yeah, he can throw the ball through a brick wall like that. It accesses some stuff for that play style that I struggle a little bit to see. With Bryce Young and the tight window stuff, it, it cuts both ways for this. Like I actually looked this up. He, in terms of tight window throws, had seven drops from his receivers. Obviously we all remember the Xavier Leggett one and that was the most in the league. I think the next closest quarterback was like four and it was like Josh Allen. So he did struggle with that. If you anecdotally watch him though, like defenders also dropped a number of interceptions. There were a handful in the Falcons game, in the Saints games. Like he just continually put the ball in harm's way. And I think when you don't have a great arm, you're probably always going to be living in that world and sometimes you can get away with it. Like we've talked about this a little bit before too. Like Brock Purdy kind of gets away with that a little bit. To me the difference is I think Brock Purdy does a better job of Getting a little bit more up and down on the ball than I think Bryce Young does at times. And so that's part of it for me. Brock Purdy is also just bigger and a better athlete. And so I think I'm completely open to the world where Bryce Young is, like, quarterback 18 in the way that, like, Baker Mayfield can be and then can be elevated by other players. I just. There's never been a top 12 quarterback that looks like this, and that's where I struggle with.
- [72:23]
A
I. I just don't think he's that far away from what Brock Purdy is like stylistically, in terms of the skill set he's bringing to the position. And Brock Purdy is definitively better than the 18th best quarterback.
- [72:34]
B
I think Purdy is. Purdy is clearly, objectively a bigger player. I think he's a better and smoother athlete than Bryce Young is. I think, again, his arm, talent and control, I think is a little bit better than Bryce Young's is. Especially to me, throwing outside of the numbers, those are some of pretty special best rows. Whereas I think Young can kind of struggle getting the touch on those that he wants. I just. I don't know.
- [72:55]
A
I. I could not disagree with this more.
- [72:57]
C
Can we acknowledge. Can we acknowledge the irony for these specific two quarterbacks of saying Mr. Relevance, Mr. Irrelevant is a better athlete than the number one overall, he is, though.
- [73:10]
A
Here's the last thing I'll say about this, just in terms of, like, the getting away with it stuff. Bryce Young was 30th among 44 quarterbacks in turnover where they play rate last year. Year. Like, I think if you're comparing what he didn't get away with because his receivers were letting him down to what he did get away with in some of the throws that he was trying to force, one of those things far outweighs the other. But how.
- [73:32]
B
How often does a quarterback with this arm get away with being that aggressive that consistently year over year? How often does that happen?
- [73:40]
A
If you know where the windows are and you play with the right amount of anticipation, I do think that you can consistently get away with it.
- [73:46]
B
So he's got to be Drew Brees.
- [73:47]
A
I'm not.
- [73:48]
B
I'm good on that. I just. I don't know. I can't.
- [73:51]
C
Derek, how much of Brock Purdy's success is just having freaking aliens that snatch the ball? Like, I mean, that.
- [73:58]
B
I mean, that's definitely part of a.
- [73:59]
C
Huge part of it.
- [74:00]
B
Well, yeah, that's why Brock Purdy can.
- [74:02]
A
Produce, like, the four aliens last year, zero aliens Thankfully.
- [74:06]
B
Yeah, but like, but again, yeah, Brock Purdy is a guy who gets to produce above what his level is. But I just, I think even individually Brock Purdy is like a tier above at least what Bryce Young is.
- [74:17]
A
To me, I think that that is some revisionist history based on what Brock Purdy has looked like over the course of his career. I don't, I do not think that.
- [74:23]
B
I just think he's better now. I would not have said that in 2023, but I think he's a better player now.
- [74:28]
A
And why can't Bryce Young become a better player?
- [74:31]
B
He might be, but I was very resistant to Brock Purdy being that guy and so maybe I'll be wrong again, but this is the type of player that I'm fine with holding the line and being wrong on.
- [74:40]
C
I don't want to diminish what Brock Purdy has accomplished. But like, like I, I can't get there with the idea of like, like Bryce Young just can't be on, like can't be a Brock Purdy esque quarterback. You know, like of course Bryce Young can't be Lamar Jackson. He can't be Josh Allen. We know these things to be true. But I think the skill set is similar enough. Even if, even if Brock. Yeah, Brock probably does have a better arm, but even still.
- [75:06]
B
And he's bigger and a better athlete.
- [75:07]
C
Yeah, give me the, give me the damn 20, 20, 23, 49ers. And let's find out just how Bryce Young looks like. I think it would be pretty good.
- [75:16]
A
Let's talk about the one alien that Bryce Young does now have. Derek, you wanted to Talk about Ted McMillan. Ted Roll McMillan when it comes to what you're excited to watch with the Panthers this year.
- [75:24]
B
Yeah, this is how I get back in the good graces of Panthers fans for everything.
- [75:27]
A
I just like you're spelled forever.
- [75:30]
B
I probably am, but I'm going to try. I mean I opened the Falcons segment basically saying everything I love about Drake London and to Tettero and McMillan is an extremely similar player to me. He's a 64 basketball moving slasher type of player who is incredibly good at getting the ball in the air. I think Drake London has a little bit more violence and like real strength to his game in a way that Tetaro and McMillan I think is more just graceful and just finds the ball incredibly well in the air. Yeah, just smooth like It's. He's not A.J. green, but in the way that he goes up and finds the ball and moves, there's like a Little bit of AJ Green to him, which actually, like, I do think in the best case scenario, what you get out of this marriage is like a light version of andy Dalton to A.J. green. And I think that like Tedro McMillan can be that kind of player. I liked him a lot in college and I know it's just preseason, but like he's looked again, there are like a dozen or so rookies who very obviously look like they belong in the preseason. Tettero and McMillan to me is one of those guys.
- [76:26]
A
It's very fun talking about him with the coaches there and early in Cambridge, you know, he's playing against JC Horn all the time. And one of the issues with McMillan's game coming out of colleges, and I've said this, he plays like a volleyball player and weighs both good and bad, right? You see the range, you see the body control, but he's just not an overly physical player even for a bigger receiver. And so J.C. horn is just in his pocket for like the first week of training camp. And it was one of the best things for him because he was looking for flags and no one was bailing him out. And I think that really did help him acclimate to the physicality of the NFL pretty quickly because of what was on the other side. Side. And the smoothness. To me, one coach, the word that they use in talking about him, which I think is really well said and I think really does get to the heart of it, he plays very grounded for a tall receiver and that leads to some of the smoothness. And there was a play in the preseason that. And it was. It's funny because I brought up an out and up from college when we were having this discussion. He ran one against Arizona State where because he's so grounded, you see the smoothness on that route and then the out and up he ran in the preseason, like that's where he is best. Even if he is a tall kind of jump ball receiver, when you look at the profile, his movement on those routes and even with the ball in his hands, he is just so smooth and grounded in the way that he plays. And so I think if he can take to the physicality, he is going to really change the complexion of this offense. Not only because of what he does for Bryce Young, and I think they've even had to teach Bryce Young like some of these other guys, it needs to be a him or nobody. With McMillan, you don't need to do that anymore. And so I think that type of receiver and then allowing everyone else to play Their more natural positions within the offense because you have a true X. He makes everything else make more sense and he gives Bryce Young, if this works, the type of target and the type of player he just could not tap into last season, despite what Derek says, as all of his receivers consistently let him down.
- [78:17]
C
I just think he's such a beautiful stylistic fit with Bryce. Yeah, there was, there was a long ball in the Browns game preseason week one where he just dropped it over his shoulder and you're just like, ah, yes, that was their vision. Like when you can see a team's vision for a player manifest itself on the field and especially that quickly. And I know he, he wasn't ready. He should have had a touchdown on that slant. Like it's not all perfect, but like when you can just see it come together that quickly, you're like, yes, this was the plan and I feel good that it can work out.
- [78:52]
A
Let's get to the swing points for the 2025 Panthers. Dave, why don't you kick us off here? Where could this season pivot for Carolina?
- [79:00]
C
Does any of the shit we just argued about matter if they don't improve their run defense like, or just defense, period. Defense, period. But specifically. Wait, Robert, tell the good listeners the stat you gave us on the pre pro call. Like that's what I'm talking about right.
- [79:14]
A
Here, this front for Carolina. We're talking about historic stuff here. They were the first defense in the next gen era since 2016 to allow a 50% rushing success rate. They also had the second lowest pressure rate of the past five years per next gen. I mean this was historically bad stuff from Carolina up front last season.
- [79:34]
B
Do you remember who was the worst pass rush over that unit? Do you have that pulled? Because that is like how are you worse than that unit? That Panthers stinky.
- [79:43]
A
I believe it was the 2022 Chicago Bears.
- [79:47]
B
Oh, you know what? Okay, I can buy that. That's bad. That's real bad.
- [79:53]
C
I just.
- [79:54]
A
The 2022 Chicago Bears.
- [79:55]
C
When the run numbers are that dismal, like I said, I mean nothing else really matters. You're not going to be competitive in enough games. Bryce Young is not going to be able to throw you into games where you just can't get off the field and you're giving defenses whatever the hell they want. And so clearly they did a lot to fix that. Like a lot of their expend were on the front. You mentioned the two draft picks. Tshon Warden, Bobby Brown, the third, Patrick Jones. Patrick Jones, who I loved as a role player. In Minnesota last year. So I. You can't do it all in one off season, but I have.
- [80:32]
A
They tried. They sure tried.
- [80:34]
B
They're doing as much as you can.
- [80:35]
C
And hey, thanks. Thanks, Patriots, for Milton Williams not being part of this, I guess. But, you know, we'll. We'll see. Can't be worse, right? It definitely can't be worse. Especially with this.
- [80:47]
A
Can't be worse. Truly can't be worse.
- [80:51]
C
Not only can it statistically not be worse, but, like, with this amount of expenditure, even if they're not all good, something's got to go, right. Like, one or two of these guys have to be useful players and make you viable, which it'll go a long way just because you won't be historically bad.
- [81:09]
A
I just love the stylistic differences in some of the guys they added. Like Scorton and Umal Melan are just so different. And I don't think that was intentional maybe a little bit, but I just don't think they thought Princely would be there in the third round. And so their ability to kind of maneuver around and make that happen. I think Scorton is just one of those guys who, I mean, he just eats rocks. Like, I just absolutely love him. Like, that's just the way that he plays. And you combine that with I. When teams are in this position. And I actually really appreciate a lot of the ways that Carolina has built this offseason. They spent a lot of money in free agency, but this is a team that even in a down year for free agents, they're spending on second contract players. These are young players that hopefully are going to be able to be a part of your foundation on defense over the next two or three years as you mold yourself into a contender. Bobby Brown is like 24 years old to Sean Wharton's a second contract player. Trevin Merrig is a second contract player. So sometimes when teams are a little bit aggressive, it doesn't mesh well with the timeline. This reminds me a little bit of what the Broncos did a couple years ago where we didn't really know what they were. They spent a lot of money, but they spent a lot of money on second contract guys that can become a part of the foundation. Foundation. So we'll see how much it actually works and how much of a difference it makes. They weren't playing with NFL players last year. Even if these guys aren't stars, they are NFL players, and I'm at least excited to see what sort of step that can mean for this unit. Overall, my swing point for Carolina, talking about young players is just the second year pass catchers. Like, what is Xavier Leggette in this offense? What is Jalen Coker? What is Jotavian Sanders? I think that Leggett specifically benefits the Most most from McMillan being involved here because now you can use him as a move piece. He can just be a vertical presence within the offense. You don't have to worry about him on the line of scrimmage on releases against number one corners like you did last year. It allows him to come along at the right pace. And Derek, I know you like Jatavian Sanders and I think that they're excited about what he can be as like a pass catching tight end that kind of complements what Tomi Trent, who I believe just came off the PUP list today, can be for them as more of that traditional second tight end that they have.
- [83:15]
B
Yeah, like I'm as excited as anyone about Tedroa McMillan in a vacuum. But he again, moving Xavier Leggett, I know he's big and looks like an X receiver. That's never what he was supposed to be coming out of college. Like he is more like the debo ish type of receiver at times. You can just run him straight down the field if you want to. Like he's a very unique. You kind of just want him running in a straight line one way or the other other type of player. And I think him being on the line as much as he was didn't really help him unlock that. And then yeah, the tight end room, like I'm. I feel like I have a better grasp of how the receiver room is going to shake out in terms of the roles and in terms of who's going to get that many snaps. The tight end room is fascinating to me because you have Tremble, who has been their leading tight end for a couple of years now, but he's coming off of some injuries. Jotavian Sanders, like, I did not like him coming out of college. I just didn't know if he had enough juice. But he looked like he was a little bit more athletic than I gave him credit for as a rookie. And then his ball skills are really, really nice. Like he caught some of those. Like Bryce Young's just going to throw it up near the sideline type of balls. I think that could be really value for them. And then they drafted Mitchell Evans who is another. Like he's not a good athlete, but he is a. He can run to his spot seven yards down the field, turn around and catch anything around him. And I think that again for A guy like Bryce Young, that could be super valuable. So I'm just interested to see how that ties end room shakes out. Cause I think they have like three actually playable guys.
- [84:35]
A
Dave, what is keeping you up at night about the 2025 Panthers?
- [84:40]
C
This is twofold, which we'll get into because they just can't afford the losses in the secondary, I don't think. But I just, I just really want J.C. horn to be healthy enough to have the career that I want him to have. I felt like when he signed his deal in March, it raised a lot of eyebrows and understandably so. The guy's only played in 54% of his games. He's missed 10 plus games in half of his NFL season. So to sign him to a $100 million contract, kudos to to Dan Morgan for having the guts to do that. The trust that he's going to be healthier because it's a huge risk when that type of investment is not on the field. But he's such a fun player. And I went back and I was just watching Panthers defense cut ups last night, which God helped me for doing that. But he's a really fun player. He's long as hell. He's physical. That, I mean that was, you know, coming out of college it was like, is this guy going to grab too much and get flagged too much to play in the NFL? But he's, he straddles that line really well. Like he's able to be physical and just bully guys without getting flagged. You can. He got run past a couple, couple of times last year. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he's not working with a loaded supporting cast, but I think he really is that caliber of cornerback if he can stay healthy. And the only people, the only reason people don't view him that way is we just don't have that many games of a him being healthy. And obviously the Panthers just aren't playing on big stages very often. So I think he's capable of being an all pro core. There's no reason we can't talk about him the way we talk about the Stingleys and the Sauces of the world. Other than he's just gotta be on the field more often. Last year was, was a great step and I'm just very, I'm. I'm anxious that, that he can maintain that.
- [86:39]
A
What becomes really important is that the secondary beyond him, that's the area where you can only do so much in one off season. Like this is a group that still has some holes. Mike Jackson you hopefully can get by with. But they're going to need an upgrade at that other outside corner, corner spot somewhere. They like Corey Thornton who was an undrafted free agent for them, but I think that's more of a long term play than him going to be an impact player this year. And we'll see how the other secondary spots shake out because with Merrick specifically, I think they want him to play a role that's similar to some of these really flexible big nickel players where he's going to be in the slot playing close to the line of scrimmage in some of the looks that they have where they can really weaponize him as the second best player in the secondary. They paid him to do do that. Well, if that happens, then you need two guys to play safety that are not Tron Marek. I think the hope is that Lathan Ransom eventually gets to that place early in the season and then you can use him and Damani Richardson and Nick Scott if you have to get by with Nick Scott. He knows the system. But even that it's like, all right, we're really piecing this thing together. So the secondary to me is still Derek. Probably the area of this roster that has the furthest to go before this team is really actually going to make any sort of, of noise.
- [87:49]
B
I don't know. I think there's a, there's a set of players that play directly in front of them that give me just as much of an.
- [87:55]
A
I know you're going to mention this, those lines, the other spot, corner and off ball linebacker are the two spots that need addressing on this team. It's.
- [88:03]
B
I think if I had to rank the 32 like starting linebacker duos in the NFL, they would be hard pressed to find themselves above like 30. Like this is just a unit that I think is really tough. Like Christian Rose. Boom. I know that he's like had played in a similar system in LA and so that's why they brought him in, but that does not inspire me. And then Trevin Wallace, they drafted last year in the third round but he was very much a coming into the league like straight line runaround guy. And we're going to hope that by year three or year four he's a guy worth paying. I think he has a lot more to prove after his rookie year. And so this is just a unit that I do think that the players in front of them being better and actually giving them a chance is certainly to going, going to help in a way that they, you Know, maybe they were just left out to try last year, but I'm pretty scared of what the middle of this defense looks like.
- [88:48]
A
Dave, what are you watching in the first month of the season with the Carolina Panthers?
- [88:54]
C
I am really intrigued by how the Panthers manage their running back room and I, I, my eyebrow raised a little bit in the spring when obviously Chuba Hubbard had a really nice season for them. They signed him to a nice deal and then they go out and get Rico Dowel who is good player. It felt kind of redundant to me, to be honest. And then if that wasn't weird enough, they drafted Trevor Etienne in the fourth round. And if you're a fourth round pick, I expect something of you right away. I mean, Jalen Wright, Bucky Irving, Ray Davis were fourth round picks last year. Rashawn Johnson was a fourth round pick. Chuba Hubbard himself, himself was a fourth round pick. By the way, like you draft a running back that early, I don't expect him to just play special teams and sit on the bench. So they got three guys who I view as pretty equal and I'm, I'm curious to see how it shakes out. I think Chuba I would guess is the lead guy and Rico undeniable. Do you like you think so?
- [89:56]
A
Yeah, that's undeniable. I think they'll ride with Chuba. I think that Rico Dowdle kind of be the secondary guy and I think they'll slow play the Trevor etn. Think they're excited about Rico Dow. I think they, they like a lot of the things that he can do, but I think Chuba is the dude there.
- [90:10]
C
Why other, other than the money, why.
- [90:12]
A
Do you think that they're, they're just, they love Chuba Hubbard. Like he's just one of those guys that they, they ran to pay Chuba Hubbard based on not only what he produced last year, but I think the, the phrasing was he's everything we want to be as an organization to be their guy.
- [90:28]
B
Look at the guards they paid and then look at the way the ch. Chuba Hubbard runs. That's he fits exactly what they want to be. Stylistically he is.
- [90:36]
A
I think that Rico Dodo could be more a part of this offense than it might seem considering how productive Chuba Hubbard was last year. Okay.
- [90:41]
C
And that's, I don't mean to diminish Chuba Hubbard. I just think Rico Dowdle had a really nice season himself. Do you realize?
- [90:48]
A
And I think that situation.
- [90:50]
C
Chuba. Chuba was a 100 meter sprinter, I believe like in college or before college. Like I think people think of him as this explosive guy and maybe people think of Rico as more of a physical plotter. Rico Dowdle and Chuba Hubbard had the exact same number of explosive runs last year, which I thought was really interesting when I saw it. And also Rico Dowdle I think has the better skill set on third down. Here's a weird stat. Chuba Hubbard was ninth in the league in receptions among running backs with 43. Somehow he didn't crack 200 receiving yards, which sounds really hard to do. How do you catch 43 and finish with like 170 receiving yards? That seems impossible to me, especially because Chuba's got some juice. So I love Chuba Hubbard. That's not the point. The point is really that I think Rico Dowdle is a really good player too. And then when you spend a fourth round pick on a running back, I, I'm just curious to see how it all shakes out. Even if Chuba is the lead guy. I think the way that they deploy all these guys could be, could be interesting.
- [91:57]
A
But I'm watching the first month of the season. Just what sort of wrinkles do we see in year two of this offense? Because I think last year was really the bare of what they want it to be. And you think about even the diversity of the run game. This was mostly a mid zone sort of team, the same way it was with Dave Canalis when he was with Tampa in 2023. They have an offensive line to be better than that. This group was like middle of the pack last year in rushing success rate despite having a pretty simple approach on the ground. And if they can start diversifying that a little bit, I think they have the talent up front, especially as a run blocking unit to take a step step there where if this thing, if we can have a couple more explosives because we have some more complimentary runs, I think they have the pieces to make that happen. Damian Lewis can be a puller in some gap schemes. Robert Haunt is really good on the move. So how they weaponize that group as a run blocking unit this year, I want to see what that next step looks like. And then what's the evolution with the passing game? You know, when you look at the structure of this offense, it really started to change in the back half of the season season when Bryce Young became established and they really understood what he liked. In the back half of last year they were in spread looks 30% of the time which was a top five rate compared to about 24% of the time in the first half of the season because they think he does a lot of good work when you spread things out for him and he can see things before the snap and gain information that way. They were seventh in the NFL out of empty in the back half of the season in EPA play and they were fourth in the amount of empty snaps that they used. So how they married that spread out world with some of the condensed run world that they want to use, it's not easy to do, but I think some of the ways that you can do it is like with quick motions and changing the picture. That's not something you can necessarily tap into with a lot of young guys in year one of a system. But as these guys get into year two of this system, Coker Leggette, Tavian Sanders, can you add some of those layers where you're marrying that condensed run world with the spread passing world that you want to be in? So I just think there are a lot of different layers to consider with this offense that I do think can come together as guys get a little bit more acclimated to what the system is. We just didn't really see that version of it last year.
- [94:06]
B
And I think to that end, they should watch as much Buffalo as they can, because if I think about what the run game can be, especially from maybe if they want to get a little bit more condensed, a little bit more under center, bring in some heavier bodies again, I think Mitchell Evans can be a good blocker, Sanders can, can be a good blocker on the move while also somehow marrying that with like, we want to be an empty a lot, which is something the Bills still can go to a lot because Josh Allen is incredibly comfortable at that. And so obviously some of the talent differences are, you know, wide between these two teams. But like, not every offense has to be like a series offense where we do this to set up this, to set up this. It can be like a we are making you defend two very different styles of offense kind of operation. And I that probably is like the best marriage for, for the Panthers.
- [94:48]
A
The last thing here, they've given Bryce Young a lot of autonomy at the line of scrimmage. Like he's going to have a toolbox to change things to, you know, change certain routes based on certain looks. And so that going from year one to year two of an offense, you can see a jump there. And so him just having a little bit more flexibility in getting those guys into the right plays and trying to account for the way defenses are playing against them with that group in Year two with better receiving talent. I don't know, man. I'm curious to see how it looks. I have some faith about how exciting and how fun this group could be. Dave, what in your mind does success look like for the 2025 Panthers?
- [95:26]
C
It starts and ends with Bryce Young being cemented as. As your guy. He doesn't have to climb into some upper echelon of NFL quarterbacks. Maybe he's. Maybe he's like at the Dalton line, which is fitting because Andy Dalton is his backup quarterback. Still, if he, you know, just be there, be a gu. The organization can be confident that they're going to build around and they don't have to start over. That is a. Okay. And if he does that, I would love to see the Panthers pick outside the top 10 in the draft. For the first time since 2019, they have been. That's crazy.
- [96:01]
A
That's a crazy stat. It's just crazy.
- [96:04]
B
The world was different the last time the Panthers picked outside the top 10.
- [96:08]
C
Be good enough to pick outside the top 10. And if you are, then it probably means Bryce Young was pretty good.
- [96:14]
A
Be a team that I have fun watching every single week offensively, don't be embarrassing defensively. And by the end of the season. Are you on the in the hunt graphic in week 17? That, to me, is success for this team. That is real progress from where they've been. And again, I believe in some of the things they've done in the way that they're trying to build the roster. I think that Dan Morgan and that group since he took over. There are some teams where, like, I'm not trying to pick on anybody. Like last year's Titans come to mind. Where I lock. I watched. I look at the offseason of last year's Titans had. I'm like, explain to me how this makes sense. Like, explain to me how this is in pursuit of you eventually winning a championship as an NFL franchise. I can't say that about the Panthers. I can get on board with most of the process and we'll see how much of that stuff actually falls into place. We're going to take one more quick break, and then we're going to come back with the New Orleans Saints. Oh, could this vintage store be any cuter? Right?
- [97:07]
C
And the best, best part, they accept Discover.
- [97:10]
A
Except Discover in a little place like this. I don't think so, Jennifer. Oh, yeah.
- [97:15]
B
Huh? Discover is accepted where I like to shop.
- [97:17]
A
Come on, baby. Get with the times. Right.
- [97:21]
B
So we shouldn't get the parachute pants.
- [97:23]
A
These are making a comeback.
- [97:26]
C
I think Discover is accepted at 99 of places that take credit cards nationwide.
- [97:32]
A
Based on the February 2025 Nielsen Rule Report. Want to turn your timeline into a fast lane digital?
- [97:39]
C
Twin it to outpace the field with fast and confident decisions.
- [97:45]
A
Transform the everyday with Siemens hey, it's Adam Grant from ted's podcast Work Life, and this episode is brought to you by ServiceNow AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 companies companies use the ServiceNow AI platform while other platforms duct tape tools together. ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people@servicenow.com Foreign. For the 2025 New Orleans Saints, their off season in 60 seconds hired Kellen Moore as their head coach Doug Muse, their offensive coordinator Bran Staley as their defensive coordinator retained Chase Young 3 years 51 million 33 guarantee assigned Justin Reed 3 years 31 million 22 guaranteed Juwan Johnson 3 years 30 million Brandon Cooks 2 years 13 million acquired Devon Godshaw and a trade from the Patriots. Also brought in Isaac Yadam as one the of of their outside corners. Lost Paulson, Adibo, MBS and Will Harrison Free agency Drafted Kelvin Banks, offensive tackle in the first round quarterback Tyler Shuck 40th overall in the second round defensive tackle Vernon Broughton in the third round safety Jonas Senka in the third round linebacker Danny Stutzman in the fourth round cornerback Quincy Riley in the fourth round. It's a little bit disorienting. I'm not used to the Saints having that many picks, but they had a decent amount of them last year. Derek, what are you excited to watch with the 2025 New Orleans Saints?
- [99:27]
B
I am. I said it at the top of the show. I am weirdly intrigued by this team. Not to the end that they will be good, but to the end that I kind of want to watch them for whatever reason. And a lot of that to me comes down to the offensive line. Like, I think it's not just that I kind of like the players. Like I think Fuaga kind of in the way that we've talked about JC Latham moving back to his natural position at the right side. I think that matters for a lot. I think he was thrown into the fire a little bit last year. I love Kelvin Banks and I think he's looked good in the preseason, their first round pick this year. And like Penning, I think you still need a little bit more to see, but like, I think even he's looked decent in the preseason next to Kelvin Banks at guard instead of what he was having to do out at tackle. And then you obviously have two more veteran players next to them and Eric McCoy and Cesar Ruiz. So there to me is a chance that this offensive line is like, kind of good. And like, to what end? Because the quarterback situation, which we'll get to, I don't know know. But I do think that this can be a unit that potentially they are really excited to build around.
- [100:21]
A
Yeah, I'm looking forward to watching that group. And I think this extends to other pieces on the offense for me too, like Rashid Shahid and Chris Olave. Dave are exciting players. Like, you combine those two guys with a young, potentially ascending offensive line. And Alvin Camara, who I think showed you last year still got some juice left in the tank. The supporting cast, from a talent perspective on this Saints core offense, it's going to be watchable if things break right. At the very least.
- [100:49]
C
I think that's what's frustrating about the Saints is, like, it's easy to bag on them because they don't have a quarterback and it's easy to sit here and crack jokes about trying to draft a quarterback and is Archie's grandson going to come out in the draft and save the franchise and all that good stuff. And the bottom line is they got a pretty good team. They just don't have the most important position or at the very least, we don't know. Know what those guys are. If you want to believe in the quarterbacks, that's fine. We don't know. But what we do know is, like, I like the receivers. I'm. I'm excited about the offensive line. I like Alvin Camara. Like, if they had more at quarterback, especially with how long the off season is, you don't think I could talk myself into the Saints winning the division with better quarterback play? I absolutely could, but the quarterback's just not there, as far as I know. And so it's hard. But I, Yeah, I like everything that y' all said. Like, there's talent here. It's not. This is not Carolina last year. Like, this is not a hopeless JV squad.
- [101:48]
B
And like, this team wasn't that bad last year. Like, they were grotesque to watch by the end because of some of the injuries and stuff. But, like, they had the same record as the Panthers. It's just that like things broke differently in terms like we remember the end of the Panther season looking great, whereas for the Saints it was early before a bunch of guys got hurt. But like this roster and team wasn't that bad.
- [102:07]
A
They were absolutely decimated by the end of last year. They had no pass catchers and so we'll see. You know, I, I think with Olave, obviously it's just a different sort of injury concern because we're talking about concussions and so that can happen at any time. And you know, there's more going on there than his football future. And so that's just something to keep in mind when think about what this group could look like. But him and Shahid together, I just think is one of the more dynamic receiver duos in the league. Even if Rashid Shahid is maybe a little bit more limited than other guys we get excited about. I will say about the offensive line to just to throw like a tiny bit of cold water on this. This is still a theory. We're talking about a rookie left tackle. We're talking about a second year guy changing sides. We're talking about Trevor Penning, who has been undeniably bad at tackle. That's why they're moving him inside. This is not a cure all. Like, just taking a bad tackle and making him a guard doesn't make him a functional player. And he's dealing with a turf toe that's going to keep him out for a while. So I think if things go well, there are versions of this offensive line that are good. I'm not treating that as any sort of certainty here. As we're getting toward the season, if.
- [103:14]
B
I dig a little deeper, I know that, right? Like, I can look at the unit and I know that. But there's something about looking at those names on paper and being like they'll hit the 80th percentile and they'll be okay. Like, I can't stop myself from doing it. And I don't know why I'm doing that with the New Orleans Saints, but I am.
- [103:30]
C
I do think Eric McCoy is a criminally underappreciated player and I think his loss specifically was. There were, there were so many reasons why it went off the cliff, cliff last year. But Eric McCoy going out early in the year and not coming back until it was not salvageable. I think that that goes underappreciated in the league landscape.
- [103:52]
A
Let's talk about the swing points potentially for the 2025 New Orleans Saints. What do you got for me, Derek? Where could this year pivot in your mind for the Saints?
- [104:01]
B
For me, it's kind of. It's the secondary because they have a lot of new pieces in here. I mean, they've brought in two new safeties with Justin Reed, which I think at the time we were like, to whatever are they doing this? But like, again, if I don't think this team is going to be an embarrassment, I get why they wanted to do that. They bring in Julian Blackman to, I think help replace Tyron Matthew. Retiring Isaac Yadam is going to be their other corner. They're really asking a lot of Koolaid McKinstry, who they drafted in the second round last year, to step up. Obviously they had traded away Lattimore and stuff like that, so. And then even at the nickel, Alante Taylor is one banged up but has been a player where he's either really good or really bad. And like, it just depending on which way he swings for any given stretch, I think could. Could go a long way. So if, like, I think in the Brandon Staley defense, which we're going to talk about a little bit more in depth later, the safety play really matters. And I do think having a guy like Justin Reed actually could go a long way there. So I just. There's. I can see the world where this goes. Right. But they do need at least like three out of five of these guys to really play closest to their best level stylistically.
- [105:02]
A
I think Justin Reed and Julian Blackman actually do make sense together. I actually think that Justin Reed kind of makes up for a lot of the weaknesses Julian Blackman had. And I think Julian Buck Blackman's tackling issues, some of that has been driven by some of the injuries that he has dealt with. But what Justin Reed is bringing to you as a tackler and just as a physical presence at safety, I think does make up for some of the concerns you might have about Julian Blackman.
- [105:24]
B
Yeah, I couldn't agree. It's like the perfect little. Again, like, it's Julian Blackman. I think we forget that like two years ago a lot of people were excited about him as like, oh man, is he one of those like upand coming and then just injury stuff kind of got it taken away from him.
- [105:38]
C
What do you.
- [105:38]
A
What is your like, confidence level that this can turn into a workable secondary with all of those guys that you just talked about?
- [105:46]
B
I mean, workable, like I would say like 50, 60%. Like I. Again, Alante Taylor, I think at times can be really good. And like, I think McKinstry is, I think in an ideal world, like a higher end, number two corner for you. But like, given where they're at with this unit, I think that can be fine. And then I think Justin Reed is, unless he hits the age cliff this year, still one of the top eight safeties in the NFL probably. Like, I think there's enough here that I can, that I can piece it together.
- [106:13]
A
Dave, what is your swing point for the 2025 Saints?
- [106:18]
C
Maybe it's the New Orleanian in me, but I just, I can't let go of my interest in the holdovers from the Sean Payton era. And there aren't, there aren't as many, but there are surprising numbers still kicking around and if the one ones that were on the roster weren't good enough. I love that a Brandon Cooks reunion is going to be part of this season.
- [106:37]
A
I like that we'll see how much Brandon Cooks plays considering they just traded a fourth round pick for Devon Valley.
- [106:42]
B
Which by the way, that's insane.
- [106:44]
C
Can we talk about that for a minute?
- [106:46]
B
I would like to because Devon Vale, great, he was like, when you find the undrafted 26 year old or whatever he was as the Broncos in Sean Payton's offense, you're like, cool, nice. You don't go trade a fourth round pick for that guy. Like, that's insane.
- [107:02]
A
Especially when you're at this stage when you're the Saints. I think any team that is potentially going to be in the quarterback draft market the following year, you cannot be trading away picks you're probably going to need to give unless you end up with the number one pick and we'll talk about this, or you're in position to draft one. Ammo is very important when you could potentially be in the quarterback market. So if you feel, unless you feel very good about Tyler schuck being your 2026 quarterback, and I'd say, I just don't know how you can say that about A quarterback drafted 40th overall given the hit rate of those guys at the position. You just can't be doing this.
- [107:36]
C
It's such a good trade. If you have ambition for the coming season, right? Like, I love it if you think you're going somewhere and if, if Mickey Loomis believes in his heart of hearts that this team has ambition, be even, like, whatever, maybe they defy all the odds and make the playoffs. Like, for what to what? For to what end? Like Derek said about the Dolphins the other night, like I. And, and he's going to be 28 next year. When you're probably retooling the quarterbacks position. It, it's weird across the board. It doesn't make sense unless you just don't have any self awareness about where you are in your roster.
- [108:14]
A
I mean that's what the New Orleans Saints have been saying five years.
- [108:18]
C
I don't know why I say that with tone of surprise in my voice.
- [108:21]
A
No, people are going to be yelling at their computers being like it's a fourth round pick. Who gives a shit. Yeah, that's probably true, but that's undrained the year before.
- [108:28]
B
Like what are we talking about?
- [108:29]
A
That doesn't mean this is worth doing. Like you still want more fourth round picks. They're going to have a fourth round comp pick next year. It was too much. The idea that they were going to have two fourth round picks after having two fourth round picks this year. Unacceptable to them.
- [108:43]
C
I do think, I do think vale was a 7th P. 7th rounder.
- [108:47]
A
Just he was drafted. Sorry, he was drafted. That's pretty good. Roi for the Broncos.
- [108:51]
B
There we go. There we go.
- [108:52]
C
He's picked 2:35. So it's not as if you're far off.
- [108:55]
B
Derek.
- [108:55]
C
I, I mean I get it. In a vacuum a fourth round pick isn't that big of a deal. But when you are a team, that's pick represents.
- [109:04]
A
David.
- [109:05]
B
Exactly.
- [109:05]
C
Well, not only that, but like they, they are important though. You need bites at the apple. You need the ability to pick players and maybe you will find somebody important with that fourth round pick. I mean the Saints know better than anybody that 2017 draft class was insane. They found difference makers at every, every level of the thing. Like they're like one pick isn't that big of a deal but yeah, it just represents the ability to add talent to your roster. And to think that that's not important where you are right now is, is strange. To get back to my point, like yeah, I don't have high expectations for Brandon Cooks this season. I think we, we can mercifully let go of the idea that Cam Jordan is like a true difference maker at this stage in his career. But there still are some older players. Obviously Demario Davis. I already mentioned Eric McCoy who, who was drafted toward the end of Sean Payton's time, but he was there for the Sean Payton years. Camara, obviously there are some guys, there are some older guys that just could be linchpins here where it's like how much, how much do you have in the tank? How high of a level are you going to play? And you're playing an important enough position where, where if you can dig deep and find good production, it could mean a lot.
- [110:22]
A
What's keeping us up at night about the Saints, I think is the same for all three of us. But Derek, I'm going to let you dig into this. What is keeping you up at night about the 2025 New Orleans Saints?
- [110:30]
B
Yeah, I mean it's the quarterbacks. Like there's no, there's really no dancing around it. And I think that that is actually especially true. I know again it's the preseason, but I think that that is especially true after watching them in the preseason. Like, I think Spencer rattling when the ball comes out is the better player, but his issue is that the ball does not come out often enough. He is very like he has a lot of the same issues that like Caleb Williams has, but he's not nearly as talented of a mover or creator as Caleb Williams has. So you just end up with a guy who takes a million sacks. And I think even in the preseason again we're seeing some of that. And then Tyler Schuck for again, I know it's the preseason and I know that we've seen guys have bad preseasons and then look perfectly fine by the regular season. He has just not impressed me. He just does not yet look like a guy who the speed of the game makes sense to him. He does not look like a guy who comfort in the pocket is very natural to him right now. And so again, maybe by November some of that stuff is sorted out and he feels like he knows how the bullets are flying. But again, for a guy they spent what, the 40th pick on a guy who's older who's like a 25, 26 year old prospect, you kind of want him to be out of the gate pretty good. And I'm just a little bit dubious.
- [111:38]
A
Yeah, I mean 40th overall picks at quarterback and the hit rate in the history of this is not good, period. Let alone a quarterback with Tyler Schuck's, you know, checkered background like this could absolutely work. And I there are some elements about Tyler Chuck as a prospect that were worth getting excited about. But there are plenty of red flags about how this is going to go with a Tyler Shuck Spencer Rattler quarterback room. My assumption is the Rattler will start the season and then we will see Shuck eventually because they need some answers on this. But even in a decent situation, if we're even if we think that the supporting cast, personnel wise is solid, if the offensive line comes together, there is A chance that the Saints just get very, very bad quarterback play for a majority of this year. And that's really hard to overcome even with a spectacular supporting cast, let alone one that's probably going to be middle of the road even in a good situation.
- [112:30]
C
I already mentioned it, so I won't dwell on it long. But I, I lose a lot of sleep thinking, thinking about the idea that Tyler Shuck is the Saints multi year backup after this year because they will draft a quarterback. And I mean you need a backup, that's fine. But if you draft a quarterback in the first round and all you got out of Tyler Shuck was six starts in which you won one game in his rookie year and the rest of it is just a super expensive insurance policy. It's not the end of the world, but I don't think it's good process. Not when you had a pretty good idea of how this season was going to go before you even drafted him.
- [113:13]
A
I'm going to throw two teams out, both in the AFC south that approach this in very different ways. The Texans just rolled with Davis Mills, right? They knew they weren't doing anything, so they just rolled with Davis Mills. They were bad. They got a top five pick. They drafted CJ Stroud the next year. They saved whatever second round pick they would have spent on a quarterback in the previous draft. The Titans did the opposite of this. They drafted Will Levis because in their minds like, well, we need a quarterback, it doesn't matter who the quarterback is, right? Like they were obsessed with CJ Stroud in that draft. They decided we need to come out of this with a quarterback. They traded up for Will Levis, which double made it doubly bad. But they still drafted Will Levis in the second round. Will Levis was bad and the Titans were back in the quarterback market the next year again anyway. And so While spending a 40th overall pick, when you don't have a quarterback on one just to take a chance, it's not the worst thing in the world. The idea of we need to make sure we're trying to find a quarterback this year just isn't true. When you are in the spot that the Saints are in, it's just a need to kind of wave at the idea of competing when it's not overly necessary.
- [114:18]
C
There's some irony there because maybe if Tyler Shuck helps him get the number one pick in the draft the way Will Levitt, I mean we're going to.
- [114:25]
A
Talk about that in a second here. That's not the last Time. I want to make this comparison.
- [114:29]
C
This was Mickey's master plan the entire time.
- [114:31]
B
I don't know if he's got any of those.
- [114:33]
A
Spending a top 40 pick to do that does not feel worth it to me. Derek. What? Excuse me, Dave, what are you watching? In the first month of the season with the 2025 Saints, I have an.
- [114:42]
C
Earnest answer for this, and I'm actually really excited about it. Again, as somebody who was in high school, when Sean Payton got to New Orleans, we knew he was a hot shot offensive mind from the Cowboys. We knew that the Cowboys had a good offense, but as crazy as it seems now, we didn't know Sean Payton the guy. And he was young. I remember when Sean Payton got to New Orleans, like, he wore a visor all the time. I mean, he still does, but like, he looked much younger. He looked like Dennis the Menace. Like, he looked like a cartoon character. And he would, like, know, he would, like, yell on the sideline and get super animated and it was goofy and like, it's, it's funny to think about that now with 20 years of context of what a great coach he is and all that he's accomplished. But when he got there, he was just a young dude with a good track record, but not the cemented status that he has now. And I think Kellen Moore is a very fun parallel because what do we know about Kellen Moore? We know that his offenses are great. He's had success, success pretty much everywhere he's gone. Let's just not talk about the Chargers season. He's had a lot of good offenses. He's helped a lot of good quarterbacks play and score touchdowns. He won a Super Bowl. He's got this great mind for the game. But he's a young dude. He, he looks like your next door neighbor kind of, you know, like, he doesn't look like somebody that's going to get up in front of an NFL locker room and just get everybody to want to run through a brick wall. And I'm, I'm just curious to see Kellen Moore the head coach. Like, not, not how the Saints even play, but, like, what does he do on Sunday? Like, is he barking at the refs? Is he going, is he going over to the refs before the game being like, hey, we noticed this about their coverage. Like, throw a, throw a flag on this shit when they do it, I'm telling you, it's going to happen. Like, is he winning in the margins on special teams? Does he, like, jump into a player's arms when they score a game winning touchdown. I don't know. We don't, we don't know about anything about Kell Moore in this situation. And I, I think it'll be fun to find out.
- [116:41]
A
I, I 100% agree with this. I think so much of like what the Saints have done this offseason is kind of like happened in the darkness of night. Like, we just don't, we haven't talked about it at all. I think part of it is because the Eagles won the super bowl, so they hired Kellen Moore a little bit later. And Kellen Moore is just kind of a forgettable head coaching hire. Like, there's nothing overly exciting about bringing in Kellen Moore to be your head coach. I think he was a solid offensive coordinator over the last few years. He was not the hottest name on the market. And this extends to what they did with the defensive coordinator. Like, I just don't. If you asked 10 random NFL fans who the defensive coordinator is for the New Orleans Saints, do you think half of them would know it's Brandon Staley?
- [117:18]
B
Absolutely not.
- [117:18]
A
There's no, I don't think so. And I'm curious what Brandon Staley in his second go around as a defensive coordinator, how does this look? Because some guys are just better suited to be coordinated. So him, the combination of him and Kellen Moore, I think there are a lot of reasons to be not that enthused about the Saints. I'm at least curious about how this goes.
- [117:38]
B
The Staley thing really fascinates me more because obviously what he did in LA was insanely cool, but also like he was cheating. You have Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey. Like, you have probably like two of the most five, like field tilting players in the league at the time. And so even though he was doing cool stuff, he was getting away with stuff that he wasn't allowed to. When he realized he had to pivot off of some of that as the head coach of the Chargers, just felt like maybe too many things on his plate, you know, trying to, trying to do too many things at one time now that he can be like, okay, how do I call my defense without getting, without having some of those cheat code answers? But also now I don't have to worry about our week to week as a head coach thing. Like, I just, who knows if it's going to work? But it's just, I am at least like pretty excited that we get to see what that might look like like for him.
- [118:26]
A
Let's talk about what success means for the. What success looks like for the 2025 Saints, I'm going to give you guys a very specific answer to this. I kind of, you know, waved at it before. If the Saints have the 2024 Titans season where they have a second round quarterback who is very, very bad, the offensive infrastructure with a play calling head coach who used to be an offensive coordinator looks solid. Right. It's not embarrassing even if this team is shooting itself in the foot over and over and over again because the quarterback play is so problematic. If you have some young pieces along the offensive line, but it doesn't all the way come together and you have a defense where you feel good about the coordinator and you think, all right, if we get better talent in here over the next couple years, can we feel like we can be like a top 10 sort of defense? So can they have the 2024 Tennessee Titans season where they pick number one overall, but we feel good about all of those other things. That to me is success for the Saints. I'm sure Mickey Loomis and Kellen Moore and everyone there wouldn't say that's success. That to me is like the best case scenario for how this can go for New Orleans.
- [119:31]
B
Yeah, like to me it's, it could be landing at the first overall pick. It could be like miraculously waltzing into eight games, you know, eight wins, somehow or another. But to me it's just like if we feel good about Kellen Moore and we feel good about the offensive line, like that's it. And again, it does not matter if they win three games or eight. If we get those two things and then we can insert the quarterback in there. We're, we're chilling.
- [119:51]
A
They shouldn't win eight games. No one that roots for the Saints should be rooting for them to win eight games. The, the only path that is okay if they win eight games is that Tyler Schuck is on his way to being like a top 12 quarterback as part of that calculus to win eight games. If that is not the case, do not want them to win eight games.
- [120:09]
B
I, that is like logically the right thing. But I am a little bit, I have a little bit of Mickey Loomis brain where I kind of respect like always compete.
- [120:16]
C
So you know, okay, that's a lose, that's a perfect. I'm glad you said that, Derek, because it's funny. Two things can be true. And this conversation happens in every bad NFL city every fall where people want the better draft pick so their team tank and they're rooting for losses. And you got to remember there, there there's a difference between the locker room and the front office. Right. Like the coaches and the players are going to always compete because you got to worry about your job the next day. Right. Like we saw it with the Giants beating the Colts last year. All like draft pick be damned. We are professionals and we're going to try our best to win a game. The front office doesn't always have to view it that way. The front office can say hey, if we see some good things from our coach that that make us feel good about that hire. We see some young players take steps and we're competitive but the record is bad. We're not going to say this publicly, but that's a okay. The problem is Mickey Loomis doesn't seem capable of thinking that way and that's why I agree with you, Robert. I think that is a best case scenario for the Saints would be to be the Titans. But I think the organization feels so stubbornly against admitting that type of stuff that this team team by hook or by crook will find a way to not be the number one overall pick. And so I would just say as long as you don't play your way out of range for a quarterback, I can live with that. If you're picking 8th or 10th, preferably higher, but at the bare minimum if you're picking top 10, you can find your way to a quarterback. Especially with the quarterback class looking the way that it does. Now obviously we don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but there are three to five guys that people are really excited about heading into the college season. Shameless plug. You can go hear about it on Building the Beast with me and Dane Brugler if you are a Saints fan. But the class should be good enough that you have a shot. So number one overall pick would be great but just, just don't play your way out of range where drafting a quarterback is a pipe dream instead of a realistic possibility.
- [122:22]
A
They might be within striking distance of a quarterback now, but when they trade a third round pick for Jason 1 Coker next week, that's going to start changing. All right, that's all we got for the 2025 New Orleans Saints and for the NFC south in 2025. We sincerely appreciate you guys tuning in. We will be back with the AFC south on Monday. Very much looking forward to that. Please come tune into that. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Dreaming of getting the all new iPhone.
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