← The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
Building the Beast: 2026 NFL Draft order takeaways and Dane Brugler's All-Rookie team
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- [00:00]
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- [02:10]
Dave Hellman
Welcome to another episode of Building the Beast. I am your host Dave Hellman and we have got a loaded show for y' all on the first Wednesday after the end of the NFL regular season. The top of the draft order is officially set. We know who's picking one. We know the entire top 10. So it's starting to feel a little more real. Dane Brugler and myself, we walked through some of the more interesting teams, some of the more interesting scenarios, what might play out and what we might need to watch for at the top of this draft cycle. We also took a quick look at the college football semifinals. Ole Miss is playing Miami and Indiana is playing Oregon. Big week of college football on deck. Dane also wrote his 2025 all rookie team. With the regular season over, we can look back at some of the more fun, more impressive rookies from this season. Really fun, spirited conferen conversation, a loaded show. Let's get into it. All right, Dane. We do a weekly draft podcast, so it's not as if this snuck up on us. We've been anticipating the real start to draft season for a while, but even still, it kind of feels like the bat signal went off. Like when the beginning of the draft order is finalized, when the Raiders secure the number one overall pick and the first 10 to 15 selection in this upcoming draft are now set in stone, it really feels like the start of something new. Like when. When did that signal go off for you? Was it when the Giants beat the Cowboys? Was it later on Sunday? Like, when did you get that? You know, when did your bat phone ring on Sunday?
- [03:45]
Dane Brugler
It was during the Steelers Ravens game when during the NBC telecast they put up a. Because the drafts in Pittsburgh this year, they have a countdown and they showed it and it's like 108 days until the draft and I the level of anxiety that I got was through the roof because it's like, oh my gosh, we're almost under 100 days until the draft's going to be here and just feels like there's so much more work to do even though we've been working on this since June. So yeah, that's when it went off for me. And it's good to have the draft order now like that, at least the first 18 picks instead of just speculating about what the order is going to be. The next domino is going to be the underclassman. That's a pretty big one obviously with, with the, especially with the quarterbacks, Dante Moore especially what will he decide to do for next year? And, and we could be waiting the the deadlines, the 14th or 15th and then it's actually later for the teams that make the national title game. So if Oregon beats Indiana, we'll be waiting even longer to find out what Dante Moore decides to do. And so, yeah, that's. That's the next big domino to fall, and then we can get into All Star season combine and all that. But, yeah, it's upon us.
- [05:03]
Dave Hellman
I feel like we are a team looking for a coach that has to wait for the super bowl run to be over. Like, we're just waiting to find out if Dante Moore is part of this draft class or not and how that's going to affect things. Real, real quick. Before we get into this, we call it building the Beast because we're just trying to ident as many prospects as possible. I don't often ask you about the state of the actual beast, like, how many words are written at this point? Like, where do things stand with the actual book? Because I got to imagine that's what gave you anxiety when you saw that Countdown is like, holy, I got a lot of words to write.
- [05:43]
Dane Brugler
I'm looking at my document right now. Right now it's at 204,875 words. So, you know, we're in a good shape in terms of, like, I. I've been doing this a lot of years, so I know that I'm in good shape. Yet there's still that little bit of panic that. Because there's so much more to do and it's like, you know, and there's not any big surprises at this point in the process. Like, we kind of know who is who, and it's more about just nailing these guys down. Like, I. We have a good idea that this, this player is going to be a second or third round pick. This player is going to be a fourth round pick at. It's about getting some of those details verified, measurements, getting to see these guys up close and personal, getting to talk to. I've talked to probably, I don't know, over half, probably 60, 65% of these prospects that are going to be drafted. So the next two months is all about filling in those gaps. For me, that for. In terms of the Beast and getting that done. So, yeah, there's still a lot of work to be done, but, yeah, I think. I think we're okay with where we're at, but still a lot of work to do.
- [06:50]
Dave Hellman
200,000 words at the, like, outset of the real part of the draft process. That's why you are the best in the business, my friend. All right, so this is. This is how we're going to do the show. Obviously, there are still three big college football games to play this season. The semifinals are at the End of this week and obviously the national championship game, we're going to talk about that a little bit. But for our purposes, we covered a lot of ground in the quarterfinal preview. You know, we're not trying to tell anybody who's going to win these games or what's going to happen on Thursday and Friday night. We know who the principal players are and what to look for. From an NFL perspective, if you want to go re listen to that or if you're new to the show, you can go check that out. If you want to get a better idea of what's coming on Thursday and Friday. But instead of going super deep on those matchups, I do just, I want to take this opportunity. We did this during the season, and it's funny to think about how different it looked back then. Cause even with a month to play in the season, so much has changed in the draft order. Teams got hot at the end of the year. You could argue teams won some games that maybe they shouldn't have tried so hard to win. But that is all water under the bridge at this point because the. Like I said, the first 18 picks in this draft are finalized. So we wanted to just take a look at the overview of the top of this draft now that we really know what to expect. Like I said, Las Vegas has the number one pick in this draft. It didn't even matter what they did against the Kansas City Chiefs because the New York Giants beat Dallas on Sunday afternoon. So you would think that this starts with the Raiders and how much they love Fernando Mendoza. It seems like that's going to be the storyline at the top. Dane, I already, I've already seen the photoshops. I saw. Did you see the video of Raiders fans, like, singing Fernando by ABBA outside of their stadium the other day? Like, that's the thing. It's starting to really build momentum here. So that's going to be the predominant talking point at the very top of this draft and we'll see how the season finishes for Fernando Mendoza. But going down the top of this draft order, I am struck by how this whole thing could hinge on the New York jets, who fall into the number 2 overall pick at 3 and 14 and what. What might be in front of them for a variety of reasons in this draft cycle.
- [09:19]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, it's interesting with, because you mentioned the teams that won and how that kind of changed these little things. And you know, Kevin Stefanski didn't really care about the draft order. He knew he might not have a job the next day. So of Course he's going to try and win in Cleveland. You know, the Giants, those guys don't care. But it is interesting when we look back how those little tweaks could mean the difference between getting player A or player B. And you know, you mentioned the Raiders. Yes, they did win and it didn't matter. But that win over the Chiefs, instead of having the first pick in every round, it means that instead of having that 33rd pick, the first pick on day two, which we know is pretty valuable, they're picking 36. Because the every. If you're tied, if you have the same record with other teams, the order will rotate every single round. And so those little things, you know, we don't.
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Dave Hellman
You're a stickler for the details and I appreciate that. Really.
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Dane Brugler
It's something that will. We can look back at and see if. How much it matters. But it is interesting and I think, you know, obviously the Raiders, it starts there. I don't think it's as simple as saying that the draft starts at number two because we don't. The Raiders, it's not like, you know, Fernando Mendoza is not the Drake May, Caleb Williams, like he's going to go number one, no question about it, type of. Type of prospect. Now, is he the clear favorite? Absolutely.
- [10:41]
Dave Hellman
Okay. I love that you're starting here because we talked about this last week. We, we talked about it last week of whether, like, it's just Mendoza and you don't need to think that much about it. And we both like Fernando Mendoza. But I think. Good of you to remind me that maybe you can't write that off right away. It just, it's hard for me to imagine with where the Raiders have been over the last couple years and the fact that they just did another one and done coach and now Tom Brady's involved. It feels way too plausible that the very energetic, very, you know, happy, go lucky and like charismatic quarterback prospect in Mendoza who has just done all this stuff for Indiana, it feels too plausible that he's the guy.
- [11:26]
Dane Brugler
Just wait till we get the combine. And the, the quotes about him being too robotic and the dynamics of his personality just aren't going to fit an NFL locker room. Just wait, I'm telling you it's coming. I promise you those things will come up during the combine or during parts of this draft process. And look, he's. He's just a very buttoned up, kind of straightforward person. And you know, because of that, I think that there will always be a respect level for him, you know, in an NFL locker room but it's the type of things that when you are under that number one overall pick type of microscope, these are the things that get talked about and Mendoza will not be immune from that.
- [12:06]
Dave Hellman
So I, I love, I love it. And look, I've seen, I've seen Mendoz Rose's post game interviews. He comes across, yeah like robotic and he seems like he's got a script memorized when he talks to the reporter after the game. And I get it if that maybe puts you off a little bit but it's still wild to think that we could be criticizing the guy for being too buttoned up and too professional. Like you're already too, you're too ready for this, for this stage, Fernando. Like that's kind of wild.
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Dane Brugler
Let me clarify. We're not saying this. We just, we're anticipating what the noise is going to be.
- [12:43]
Dave Hellman
People are going to find a reason to pick a guy apart no matter what. For sure.
- [12:46]
Dane Brugler
I do, I do think it's interesting though like you know you compare them to, instead of comparing them to the first three picks two years ago, Caleb, Drake, May, Jaden Daniels instead of doing that because I think that's unfair. I don't think, I don't think anybody would argue that. I mean maybe some would but I don't, I certainly wouldn't that Fernando Mendoza is on that level. But the number one pick last year with Caleb, with, with Cam Ward, two very different styles of quarterback. I wouldn't be surprised if some prefer Mendoza just his style of play while some others might prefer Cam Ward. And you know, Ward is a little more reckless but he's a lot more physically talented and just has a little more to him where Mendoza a little more buttoned up as a, as a quarterback with this process and taking care of the football. And so it's just, it comes down to your coach which we know the Raiders don't have a coach right now and so that, that process will be interesting to see how this goes and, but obviously Mendoza clear favorite to go number one overall at this point. But I mean I think you know, you, you mentioned the jets now at number two. It's just, it's crazy the kind of, you know, the all time, just worst season they had and it's like where do you go from here? You know we, we. I think everyone knows the, the no interceptions for the, that defense and how crazy that is. I was blown away. They didn't have a single player over 400 receiving yards which is in a 17 game schedule. Like that's Bonkers to me. And I get it, the quarterback situation's bad. Garrett Wilson went down with an injury, so the receivers were terrible. But you're telling me even Breece hall getting all those screens or a tight end or like you couldn't get 400 yards. I mean that's to me the worst team that I've ever seen in my, you know, 30 years watching football. The 99 expansion Browns were as bad as it gets and they had three players over 400 receiving yards. So it just, it's, it's amazing to me how bad that of a state that team was in this year. It'll be interesting though because this is not a quarterback or bust type of pick. You know, they have too much draft capital the next two years to settle for someone that they don't love. So if Dante Moore does come out and he's there or say something crazy happens at one, it's not a foregone conclusion that they go quarterback here. And it'll be really interesting especially if Dante Moore does come out because he's not a. This isn't a slam dunk. Quarterbacks go one, two. You know, I like Dante Moore. He's naturally accurate, he's got mobility. But you know, if you watch that Texas Tech game, he gets gun shy at times, especially when he's under pressure. He's a smaller framed quarterback. So you know, he's just, he's an inexperienced player too. He has under 20 starts. So if you. Not everyone's going to be smitten with Dante Moore as a, no doubt about it, top three type of quarterback. So you know, I think that's just important to keep in mind. Now maybe the jets will see him that way, but it's not a foregone conclusion. So if he's still on the board, Dante Moore, could he go three to Arizona? Could we see the Browns make a move? So I think that could get really interesting if Dante Moore does declare. But this is also a draft where there's not that clear non quarterback. You know, the Miles Garrett a Bosa, those types of guys where the jets, if they don't go quarterback, it's naturally, oh well then you know, we've got this guy waiting for us that's vastly going to improve our roster. Number two becomes, I think a real wild card.
- [16:15]
Dave Hellman
Even if Dante Moore is not that guy that everybody's sold, it goes number two overall. Like even if it's not that clear cut, the jets have to be hoping and praying that he declares just a to give them the quarterback to evaluate, because I think it's a very good point by you that Mendoza shouldn't be written in stone. But I will. I will take the easy money and say, I think that's what's going to happen at the end of the day.
- [16:42]
Dane Brugler
Very fair.
- [16:43]
Dave Hellman
And so to have the extra quarterback to give you a shot to draft that guy if you want to, or to just make that pick valuable, because odds are somebody will want Dante more at number two, like some. Some team that really needs one. I like the odds that they would be willing to jump up if he's available. And so at the very least, you either have the choice to draft him if you want to, or try to sell that pick to the highest bidder. And that's what makes this so fun for the four.
- [17:14]
Dane Brugler
He was born in Cleveland. I'm just saying, you never know.
- [17:17]
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- [17:17]
Dave Hellman
We're going to talk about that. So I, I want to hit on a handful of the teams that interest me the most at the top of this draft process, and the Browns are obviously one of them, but, yeah, I mean, you're. Yes, they are one of those teams where it's like, hey, we're at six. If we like this guy this much, is that realistic to think he would be sitting there for us? Or can we do what Jacksonville just did last year and jump up three or four spots and try to get our guy? The jets have to be hoping Dante Moore declares because it just makes that pick so much more valuable, in my opinion.
- [17:48]
Dane Brugler
No, you're a hundred percent right. Because even if the jets aren't sold, just having that position of power where Dante Moore in this draft class does change the equation a little bit, because you would think that the Cardinals will be in play there at number three, potentially. There's a lot that's going to play out in free agency in this off season with the quarterback carousel, but there's just not a lot of options. You know, if you, if you need a quarterback, you know, Malik Willis, Kyler Murray, you know, it's just, there's. There's very few options that you can point to and say, like, yeah, that clearly makes us better. And it's. It's worth what it's going to take, money wise, draft capital wise to go get him. So it's just going to be a weird, weird quarterback off season for the teams that don't have a quarterback. And the Browns are definitely in that. And, you know, with Kevin Stefansi no longer there, obviously who they hire is going to play a big part in that process, if the draft were tomorrow, I think that there's a better chance the Browns are probably looking at addressing a non quarterback. You know, you look at the offensive line, you look at receiver aside from quarterback. Those are clearly the two bleakest positions on the roster. So for the Browns, and you're picking at six, you're crossing your fingers that no offensive linemen and no receivers go in the top five, which is, is possible. So I mean, basically I think you're crossing your fingers that Jordan Tyson and Spencer Fano, Arizona State receiver, offensive tackle From Utah, those two guys are still on the board at 6, or at the very least one of them. So you can address one of those key positions on your roster.
- [19:31]
Dave Hellman
That's the other thing I keep thinking about and it pertains to the jets as well. And we'll see how this all evolves. We don't even know if Dante Moore is going pro. And we also, we, we don't know for sure how the league is going to view him. Maybe, maybe he even declares and he's just not a slam dunk to be a top two or three pick the way that he kind of feels right now because quarterback drives so much of this conversation. I'm dying to know which players NFL teams will view as like, who's that other than quarterback, who's that next guy off the board? Cause we've been talking about it all year. It's hard to identify that guy, like, who would go number one in this draft if it wasn't a quarterback. And the jets and some of these other teams having to make that decision, I think is so interesting because it's, it's just not an easy name to pick in my opinion.
- [20:22]
Dane Brugler
I mean, I, it feels like yesterday when people told me for sure that Justin Fields is going to be a top three pick, you know, like that's it. It's going to happen. Okay, that didn't happen. And you know, you go back even further with Josh Allen or Lamar, like there's plenty of quarterbacks that showed plenty of talent that it wasn't as simple as they went 1, 2, 3, or, you know, it's, it's just this very.
- [20:49]
Dave Hellman
Rarely is like 2024 was so rare where, you know, three badass quarterbacks come out and they go 1, 2, 3.
- [20:56]
Dane Brugler
I mean, the year before when we had Bryce Young and C.J. stroud, they went 1, 2. And so like it's, it's. We've seen both. Like every draft has its own Persona. You know, every draft is different. And so I think the way that this draft is shaped based off of Dante Moore's decision and then based off of some of the dominoes in free agency and some of these other moves, it will be really fascinating to see it play out. This will be one of the more unpredictable top tens that I can remember, just because every draft board is going to look very, very different, you know, in both offense and defense. You know, Jeremiah Love, Kenyon Siddiq. Like, I think those Two guys are two of the top 10 players in this draft. But, you know, we're a running back, tight end. Not every team's going to be on board drafting those positions that high. Arvel Reese, who is very much in the conversation, in my opinion, to be the best player in this draft, he's, you know, he's not a tweener, but he is a hybrid where you can play him off the ball, you can play him as an edge rusher, but, you know, is what's his best position that's going to look a little bit different from team to team, scheme to scheme. So this is a very unpredictable draft because all the varying decisions and opinions of these players from board to board, team to team.
- [22:18]
Dave Hellman
I also want to highlight the other New York team, the Giants officially picking five. I thought it was noteworthy. Obviously, they bring back general manager Joe Shane, which we weren't sure was going to happen for a lot of this year. He'll be leading this draft process, whether you agree with that or not. And what I thought was interesting at his press conference, basically saying that he's coming back, was he was talking about how appealing his job is because of the play of Jackson Dart, which I agree with. I thought the whispers and the chatter about the Giants drafting another quarterback again this year, I never agreed with. I think Jackson Dart has shown you plenty to be worth another year. But I do think it's fun when the general manager says that, where he's like, hey, this. This guy is what makes this job appealing, and we'll see who the Giants hire. But I hear that and. And I'm thinking like, okay, who are you drafting to make Jackson darts life easier in 2026? Obviously, when you finish as poorly as the Giants did, they have needs all over the place. I'm sure they'd love to add to their secondary, but I hear that, and I'm like, okay, receiver, offensive line, Are we doing the Jeremiah Love thing? Like, what are we doing to help Jackson Dart in 2026?
- [23:33]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, and that makes sense that, you know, you do what you can to help Your young quarterback. I to. But I wouldn't be surprised if they went defense either because, you know, like I, you look at these Ohio State guys and Sonny Stiles, Caleb Downs, like what they would bring to that Giants defense would be, you know, an immediate upgrade and just proven football players like those guys, there's no such thing as a sure thing, but those guys feel like they have less risk. Like you just have a good idea of what you're getting with those players. So. And I don't think, you know, this is a organization that looks like they need to make a splash here. They just want to get a proven football player that, that makes sense for this roster that you can build around. And I, I think one of these Ohio State guys would make perfect sense for them. But yeah, to your point, I mean, I mentioned how The Browns at 6 are going to be hoping that a receiver, offensive lineman is still there. The Giants at five, right in front of them could be one of those teams that could snipe a Jordan Tyson or one of these offensive linemen right in front of them. So that the Giants are, I think are a little wide open with the direction they go here.
- [24:37]
Dave Hellman
We already talked about the Browns, but I wanted to follow up with you. You've just, you've been on it from the beginning that they're going to need to be aggressive at the quarterback position. And we can't know that for sure until we know how many quarterbacks we're working with. But where do you stand on that with this current landscape with them playing themselves all the way up to number six in this draft order?
- [25:01]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, you know, it's the reason they traded. They wanted Cam Ward last year that they saw it as a one quarterback draft. If the Browns had a chance to get Cam Ward, they would have. Titans weren't playing. They wanted the quarterback. Totally understand. They traded back and partly because they wanted some draft ammo this year so they could be aggressive to get that quarterback. This quarterback class did not turn out the way any of us thought. And again, that's not media driven and a lot of NFL teams are very excited about the potential of this quarterback class.
- [25:33]
Dave Hellman
Class.
- [25:33]
Dane Brugler
It just didn't come to fruition. So what, what does that leave? Where does that leave the Browns with? Okay, do they take the same approach where, okay, we're not going to get Mendoza if Moore is here, if they like really like Dante Moore, but they're not able to get him because the jets are submitting with him at 2, do they take the same approach where you take the good football player or try to trade back and then look at next year. You know, obviously Shador being on this roster and Andrew Barry was the driving force drafting Shador. Andrew Barry is back as the GM in Cleveland. Do they make another aggressive move for Malik Willis just to bring in? Because I, I should Door is very up and down. More down than up. Like it's watching that game against the Bengals. The Bengals are terrible on defense and aside from that final drive, Shador just had trouble moving the football and the turnover worthy plays just really frustrating to watch. But if you know he's, he's. I'm fine with bringing him back on the roster. You have to at least bring in competition. What does that look like? What is the best avenue to do that? Whether that's a Malik Willis or somebody in this draft that'll be interesting to watch just to see how they attack things.
- [26:50]
Dave Hellman
Well and yeah we, we're repeating ourselves but so, so much changes every year. This. It'll all look different when free agency gets rolling. But specifically so many of these teams that could shape the draf quarter. I expect to change their quarterback situation before we get to the draft. I mean I'd be. I guess you can't rule it out with a coaching change now that Jonathan Gannon is out in Arizona. But I'd still be kind of surprised if Kyler Murray is back in Arizona next year. Obviously the Browns would probably like to cover themselves at quarterback heading into the draft. The Miami Dolphins at number 11 look like a team that could do something major at quarterback after the way it went down with Tua this year. And they're all the way back number 18. But throw in the Vikings as well with probably wanting to cover themselves against J.J. mcCarthy. So that's, that's a lot of quarterback movement and that doesn't even include the Colts and what might be in front of them. Obviously they don't have a first round pick because of the sauce trade but this feels like it could be a very active year of. Of musical chairs for starting quarterbacks and.
- [27:59]
Dane Brugler
Not a very like not a very.
- [28:02]
Dave Hellman
Good pool of options.
- [28:05]
Dane Brugler
I mean it will be interesting but not fun. Like not a lot of great options out there. So yeah it's would not if you're the Patriots. If you're one of these team. Like I know that the season did not go great if you're the commanders. But you can feel good that you have your quarterback. You know like you can have solace in, in that that you're at least you're not One of these teams just searching in the sand for capable quarterback play.
- [28:33]
Dave Hellman
I'm glad you said that because that is one of the most interesting things about the top of this draft to me is every now and then you'll have misfortune, strikes a team, and a team with a franchise quarterback, a team that we expected to see in the playoffs, will have a bad year. That's not that weird, but we got it three times in the top 10 of this draft. The Washington Commanders, the Kansas City Chiefs, the Cincinnati Bengals all entered the season with hopes of winning their division and competing for a Super Bowl. I looked it up before the show. They were all top 10 in preseason odds to win the super bowl before the season started, obviously. Yeah, exactly. And so three teams who we know have franchise quarterbacks are picking in the top 10 of this draft. And that is. It's very fun. It's very exciting to see what they prioritize. I mean, the. For. For teams that we expect so much of the. The list of needs is long, right? Like, it's crazy that the Commanders played in the NFC title game last year, and you go look at it now and you're like, man, they need help at edge. Rusher. They could use some help at corner. They could probably use a safety.
- [29:49]
Dane Brugler
Running back.
- [29:50]
Dave Hellman
Running back room is not as deep as you might want. Receiver behind Terry McLaurin was never deep. There's no shortage of. Of paths they could choose. Obviously, the Bengals have needed everything on defense forever, and Trey Hendrickson is probably out this off season, so that's something else to consider. And then again, the Chiefs, I think. I think they'll be fine in the long run, but I'm sure they would like to retool pieces of their def. They could use a Travis Kelsey replacement. They need running back help. Their receivers kind of underwhelmed this year, so there's no shortage of ways you could do this for all of these teams. But it is fun to see all of them holding such big picks.
- [30:34]
Dane Brugler
Well, that's why I said it's going to be a very unpredictable top 10 when you have the teams at the top that could go quarterback, might not. And these three teams, especially, where they could go in a lot of different directions. When you have a Jeremiah Love out there, when you have a Kenyan Sadiq out there, you know, you could absolutely. The Chiefs can make the case that Sadiq is the best player available on the board. When they're picking at nine, you know, and you know, they don't know how to pick at nine. The Last time they picked at nine or in the top nine picks, Patrick Mahomes was in middle school.
- [31:06]
Dave Hellman
So it was, it was Eric Fisher, wasn't it?
- [31:08]
Dane Brugler
Yeah. 2013, I believe Patrick Mahomes is in 8th grade that year. So it's. Yeah. So old. Very. I think that's, that's the first year we met. I believe it's been, it's been a long, long road.
- [31:22]
Dave Hellman
So wild that like 20, 2013 was like when you and I started working together. And so for a lot of reasons, it feels like it was yesterday, but then you're like, yeah, Patrick Mahomes was in eighth grade. And I'm like, holy.
- [31:35]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, Patrick Mahomes, what, eighth year? Or whatever it is now. So, yeah, they really could go in a lot of different directions because, I mean, I mean, you hit on those surface level needs and those will change, obviously, in free agency and how, you know, there will always be some surprise cuts. And, and I, I, I would also just caution people that so many people just look at the draft in the first round, in the top 10 and say, oh, what's our biggest need? Oh, pass rusher. Boom. Okay, that's, that's what's going to be. It's just not that simple. Every year shows us that teams will think outside the box a little bit. They'll bet on traits at a different position. They'll bet on, you know, they're forecasting to not just next year's roster, but two, three years from now and what's coming down the pike as a going to be a need on this team. So, you know, it's, it's just not that simple. And especially in a draft like this, we, we could definitely see some, some surprise picks when we get to, to that point in the draft.
- [32:30]
Dave Hellman
I'm so glad you said that because I was formulating an early take.
- [32:34]
Dane Brugler
Ooh, bring it.
- [32:36]
Dave Hellman
I think it's easy to look at the Chiefs and say they need a Travis Kelsey replacement. Like, I think a lot of people are going to circle Kenyan Sadiq. I think a lot of people would circle Jeremiah Love. I think, you know, the Chiefs tried that with Clyde Edwards Elair, and Jeremiah Love is obviously a vastly better prospect than Clyde Edwards Elair. Like I said, receiver. I think there's, there's a million things that people would want to mock to the Chiefs. That all sound very exciting. He would be fun almost anywhere, but Kansas City would be like my A1 Caleb Downs Landing spot. Get him in there with spags and the amount of hats that he can wear and the amount of stuff that he can do, I think it would be super exciting. I think. I think it would confuse a lot of people who don't pay closer attention. And I would be like, yes, let's get back to the Chiefs that won Super Bowls with their defense being so badass. I think that would be awesome.
- [33:33]
Dane Brugler
I was thinking the same thing about the Bengals and what Caleb Downs would bring to that.
- [33:37]
Dave Hellman
Like I said, there. There aren't very many teams There aren't very many teams where Caleb Downs wouldn't be a good.
- [33:42]
Dane Brugler
Exactly. Both. I mean, what he brings, like, he'll instantly be one of the leaders on the team and he, he was outstanding against Miami. Like, I. Ohio State offense struggled. The defense played pretty well, especially the studs. The stars of the Ohio State defense played really. Sunny Styles. Sunny Styles missed his first tackle and the whole entire season and it's. He still had a really good game. Caleb Downs was awesome and you know, it. Nothing happened in that game to hurt those guys from being the, the top picks are going to be.
- [34:14]
Dave Hellman
Yeah, again, I mean, Cincinnati could use everything.
- [34:17]
Dane Brugler
So defensive player though, right?
- [34:19]
Dave Hellman
Particularly on the defensive side of the ball.
- [34:20]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, for sure. Right. I mean, it's going to be. It's got to be a defensive player. They, they need so much help on that side of the ball, especially with, like you said, Trey Henderson likely not being back. And there's always turnover. I mean, Joseph ASAI probably not back. Not that he's a difference maker on that team, but there's always turnover on the roster anyways. And so. So the Bengals are going to be in a position where they can draft one of these. You know, Keljk Falk, there's a lot of different ways they could address the defense. But yeah, it will get interesting. And I think, like I said, we could see a few surprises where someone like Mansour Delaine, corner out of lsu who's not super toolsy, he's not going to overwhelm anybody at the combine with. He'll be fine in terms of speed, but he won't be a 43 guy and he'll be fine in terms of size, but he's 511, 190, not very long. But he's just a really good football player. Like, I like him a lot more than Jedi Baron who was drafted 20th last year. And a lot of people thought Jedi Baron was a top 12 pick. And I think Mansour Delane's a better prospect. So, you know, if Delane gets into the top 10, that, to me, that is not A surprise in this draft class that's.
- [35:36]
Dave Hellman
I've brought it up with you a million times because corner is such an important position and this doesn't feel like a year with that. No doubt about it, top 10 type of pick. But you look at Delane, maybe Avion Terrell at Clemson, we've Talked about Jermod.
- [35:52]
Dane Brugler
McCoy, Jamal McCoy is that. That's the one where it's a lot will hinge on the medicals, obviously coming off the acl and what does he run at the combine, assuming he runs. But that 2024 tape is first round top 15 type of tape. So there's always risk involved. But at least that we're a year removed from that injury, we'll have the complete medicals and we'll be able to see a move. And so if Jermod McCoy still ends up going top seven in this draft, to me that should not surprise anybody.
- [36:22]
Dave Hellman
This is a perfect illustration of my point though. The likely top two choices are a guy who didn't play in 2025 and a guy who dominated in the SEC but might not have the, the measurables and the testing that really get you excited and make you feel confident about that. But scarcity is a hell of a thing. And so I like trying to pinpoint where a guy like that would go is very fun because you're looking at it and you're like, oh, I feel better about this at 12 or 13. But if you're convinced that the drop off is severe, then yeah, why would you be surprised to see that guy go 6 or 7?
- [37:01]
Dane Brugler
People need to change your perceptions based. They have to do it every draft class, you know, like just in, in one draft class, Brock Bowers would go top three. In this draft class, Brock Bowers would be a top five pick. But you know, two years ago he was the 13th pick just because of the quarterbacks in that draft and the high end talent in that draft. So you just. Everyone has a change of perception of what a number one overall pick looks like in a guy like Fernando Mendoza, who's not on the level of those guys that we talked about before. But if the Raiders believe he'll be a top 15 quarterback in the league that he has like at some point in the next three years he can get to that level or on that rookie contract, then you pull the trigger. You go that you. That's who you draft at number one overall. And so I think you just based on who the. What the draft gives you every year. Because every draft is different, has its own identity. You have to just alter your perception a little bit in terms of, oh, well, this, in, in most drafts, this player will go, you know, 14th or whatever it ends up being. So this, this draft more than ever, got to change your perception and understand, okay, what is he going to be? Instead of comparing a player to past drafts, compare him to what does he bring to our team? How did. What's the impact that he gives us? And is there anybody else that brings a better impact? If not, then screw it. That should be the player. That should be the pick, because that's going to make the biggest impact for your team.
- [38:26]
Dave Hellman
One more team I wanted to hit on before we move on to the rest of the show. I think it's worth mentioning again. When we did this, however many weeks ago, it looked like the Rams were going to have a top 10 pick, and they do. They still have a pretty good pick by virtue of the trade with Atlanta. Ironically, Atlanta beat them in that fantastic Monday night game. That hurt the Rams pick. So now they, they own Atlanta's pick at 13 overall. Atlanta finished the season really strongly to get to 8 and 9. So you have the 13th pick and, and we'll see what their, their own pick is. It'll be in the 20s or maybe even the 30s. But I'm very intrigued by how the math changes there because the Rams quarterback hunting no longer feels as plausible as it did. Or maybe they're that crazy. I mean, this is one of the most aggressive front offices in the NFL. They have draft capital for the first time in forever. Maybe they try it anyway. But I'm, I'm very interested in how the Rams approach this, where you have a quarterback who's in the twilight of his career. We don't know that Matthew Stafford's done, but you'd be crazy not to be thinking about that. But are you in position to do anything about it? Or do you just try to load up your offensive line or draft an heir to Devonte Adams? I don't know. Like, it's, it's so much murkier now that this is pick 13 instead of like pick 7, right?
- [39:48]
Dane Brugler
And yeah, Stafford, he's gonna be 38 this off season, obviously coming off MVP level year, but, you know, who knows how long he wants to play, so you know that that will play a part in what they do. I'm just, I'm looking forward to them drafting Kenyan Sadiq and just running 14 personnel, you know, next season and just changing, changing the rules. You can't.
- [40:11]
Dave Hellman
You're gonna get another Oregon tight end. Just, just, just put them on a, on a conveyor belt straight to the Rams facility.
- [40:17]
Dane Brugler
I'm, I'm saying that half kidding or mostly kidding, but mostly kidding until they do it.
- [40:23]
Dave Hellman
Yeah, exact.
- [40:23]
Dane Brugler
But that, my point being kind of like you said, like the Rams, they, they kind of think differently and they, they, they in a lot of different ways have been on the forefront of, hey, we think this could work. Let's lean into it. And so seeing the direction they go at 13 will be a lot of fun. And I, I think that, you know, obviously they're a team that is set up to compete for the super bowl, and so there's not a ton of needs, but, you know, could they use an upgrade, a corner? Could they use, like, there's obviously places they could address, but could they make a splash when you're drafting or this high, which they don't expect to be drafting this high. Very, very often. That, that will be fun to watch. You know, and I've mentioned Sadiq a few times. I think one thing to me, he's a top, top 12 level player in this draft, but something that might hurt him is this is a deep tight end class. I think edge rusher, linebacker, tight end. Those three positions, to me, at least with the underclassmen that have declared up to this point, they look like three of the most, or at least the deepest positions that this draft has to offer. So that doesn't stop you from drafting a Sadiq, anyone in the top 15. But I think it may be, if you feel good about this tight end class like I do, you feel good about waiting to the second, third round, fourth round, and getting a plan B and then going a different way in the first round.
- [41:46]
Dave Hellman
There are always teams who feel like they're a piece away. And I know that's a, that's a logical fallacy. You're never one piece away, but there are always a handful of teams where the perception of them is that they're a piece away. And we, we wish cast weapons and, you know, splashy players for those team. It's very funny to think that the Rams are one of those aggressive teams that's down to do something wild, to put themselves over the top. And so having a quarterback who's turning 38, I wonder how they balance that. Whether or not they win the Super Bowl. I wouldn't blame them if that, like, affected their decision making. Like, how close do you come to winning a championship in the next month and how does it affect just how wild you want to get with it in this draft.
- [42:32]
Dane Brugler
Yeah. You feel like you're playing with house money at that point where it's like, you know, we, we, we just won a Super Bowl. We, we feel like we can maybe.
- [42:41]
Dave Hellman
But if they, let's say, let's say they fall painfully short.
- [42:44]
Dane Brugler
Yeah.
- [42:45]
Dave Hellman
Like what do you do? And knowing that you've at best case scenario got like one more year of Stafford, that's, that sounds like a hard place to be. But I, I think if, if anybody was going to be stuck in that position, I think I trust Les need and Sean McVay to figure it out.
- [43:01]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, fair point.
- [43:02]
Dave Hellman
All right, that does it for draft talk for now. I mean, we got so much more coming, but we do want to take a little bit of a look at the college semifinals. We'll do that on the other side of the break.
- [43:14]
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- [46:09]
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- [47:04]
Dave Hellman
All right, Dane, Like I said, we went really in depth with the quarters last week. I think I worry about redundancy if we just run it back. Obviously. It's Miami against Ole Miss on Thursday night. It's Indiana versus Oregon on Friday night. By this point, I feel like we have a really good idea of what to expect and who's playing if, if you're a team, if you're a fan of a team that needs a quarterback, you should watch the Peach bowl on Friday night. Fernando Mendoza is playing Dante Moore. I can't think of a better selling point for that. But I did want to hit on one guy who we've talked about fairly often on this show, and we joked about it last week. It kind of started off as a little bit of a novelty, and there was Trinidad Chambliss just balling out against Georgia in the college football quarterfinals. He's got a chance to get Ole Miss to the national championship game this week. And I did want to revisit that and get your feelings on what this could all mean. Obviously, we don't know right now. Trinidad Chambliss has applied for a waiver for another year of eligibility. He recommitted to Ole Miss so he could be right back there in Oxford next fall, but all of a sudden starting to feel like a much more serious NFL prospect than we were imagining way back in Sept.
- [48:26]
Dane Brugler
Remember? Well, and when we first started talking about him in the fall, like I, I asked scouts, you know, what do you, what do you think about him? And they all said good things, but they weren't really considering him as a serious 2026 prospect because he wanted to go back to school. And Ole Miss was very confident that the waiver would go through. So. And even with the success that he's had here in the playoffs, it still sounds like that's option A for him. You know, he wants that one more year in college. Now, could that change if Ole Miss wins at all, potentially? Right. But I think the main variable here is that waiver. And even if it's denied because just without going too far into it, he had two years that he did not play at Ferris State. One, he redshirted, the other one, that's the one they're trying to get a medical red shirt for. So, you know, they have to show documentation that, hey, this was the injury, this is what, what kept me from playing. And so even if that does get denied, we'll probably see a lawsuit. And, you know, there's, I think there's a better chance that Chambliss is playing in college next year than the NFL, but the door isn't completely closed. And so if he is a part of this class, I don't know, day two certainly feels possible for him. And, you know, all it takes is one team every year. There's a reminder of that. Dylan Gabriel was that guy last year. And Chambliss, I mean, he's got the resume of a full resume of big time throws against SEC competition. He's got the athletic instincts that you want. I think that will really separate him from some other quarterbacks in this class. And he takes care of the football. He has one of the best touchdown interception ratios in the country. So I'm very excited to see him against Miami in this playoff game, especially with, we know that pass rush for the Hurricanes and what, what can can what it can bring, you know, are they going to just let it loose? Are they going to try and play a little more contained with a guy like Chambliss who we know can use his legs, which is different than Julian Saiyan in Ohio State. So this will be a very good test for the quarterback against that Hurricanes defense. And while what happens in the playoffs probably will determine ultimately what he does, it's more about the waiver. And it sounds like that decision could be coming pretty quickly.
- [50:47]
Dave Hellman
That's, it's so interesting to think about.
- [50:51]
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- [50:53]
Dave Hellman
And I mean that's, we've been talking about it all year. That's the new landscape of college football where like I could sit here and say, Trinidad, somebody's going to be willing to make you the 66th overall pick in the NFL draft and think about the money that comes with that. And that mattered six years ago. And right now I don't know the number off the top of my head, but, but you hear the reports about what Brendan Soresby got to go to Texas Tech and what some of these other transfer quarterbacks are getting. I'm sure he will be well compensated to stay in college. Like it's not the risk that it used to be. And so it, it's still as somebody who grew up with the old way and this has been what I'm used to, it's still weird to think about.
- [51:35]
Dane Brugler
But if you don't, you're not the only one. I mean the amount of people on Twitter, the responses I get about, about, oh, Chambers, he has to go now, right? Like, look at his age. Look at that's. You have to change your thinking. Like that's just not how guys and I, this is true regardless of era. But money is not the determining factor for not a lot of these guys. Some of these guys where it's what's going to get me the absolute max out my bank account, you know, because you are well compensated, especially Quarterbacks, especially SEC quarterbacks. And so you are making good money and you just, you can't get that year back in college. And that's how a lot of guys think. They're not in a rush to get to the next level, get to the NFL. Some guys are. Not everyone is. And that might be a lot of people think just in terms of money, in those terms. And I get it. I'm not saying that's wrong in any way, but that's just not how everyone looks at it. Not how everyone feels. And you know, when we look back, in hindsight, could it end up being the wrong decision? Sure. But that's, that's life. We all make our own decisions and some of us might have regrets, some of us might, you know, but you know, that's, that's just something that, especially with this specific player being at an SEC school when you are the quarterback, it's pretty glamorous, right? Like, I mean you're the guy. There's, of course there's pressure, but there's still a, it's, it's got to be a lot of fun for this player. After being a D2 guy for four years, going to the SEC and all of a sudden kind of being at this level and having these types of resources and you're not, in some ways you're, you have to be a pro because that's the way college athletics is moving. But it's still not the NFL where you know, you've got 35 year olds in your locker room relying on you to go make plays. It's still a different dynamic. And so I don't think it's any surprise why him or anybody would want to go back. And this include Dante Moore in this conversation as well. If he goes back to school, cool people will the crying from people about how could you pass up that type of money. Like he's, if he feels like he's going to be a better quarterback in the long run with one more year in college where he's probably going to be making five plus million dollars next year. I, I get it. I mean that's good for him to make that decision.
- [53:52]
Dave Hellman
Let's, let's be blunt about it too. Like, and of course not everybody has the same background or has the same need for the money. But it used to just be a leverage play though where like, even if you don't need the money, if you get a good report from the NF and you're going to be whatever, like a top 50 pick, you look at it and you're like, okay, that's not even that. Like, I'm not even going to go top 10. But how am I supposed to turn down this many million dollars in hand? Like, I'm putting myself at risk for no guarantee of future money and even. Look, let's not be naive. Guys were getting paid under the table all the time in college football before this. But, but six figures and a free dodge charger that showed up in your driveway is not the same thing as signing on the dotted line to go back to school and being confident that you're going to make seven figures, which the quarterback of a football factory is going to make. And so it's just not as scary as it used to be to go back to school.
- [54:51]
Dane Brugler
It's, it's still bizarre seeing these tweets about USC resigning their quarterback. Or, like, just. It's, it's, it's weird, man.
- [54:59]
Dave Hellman
It's, it is a. Like I said, I'm, I'm still adjusting to it. But you're so right. Like, you have to let that model of thinking go where you're just like, oh, well, the, the lure of the money is too great to ignore because you could lose everything. Where it's like, no, you can still make a lot of money and make yourself a more desirable prospect. And if, if Trinidad Chambliss could go in the second or third round today, then that means he's got a shot to improve his stock even more next year. And if it, I mean, and even if it works out disastrously, he's still going to be paid handsomely to do it. I mean, shoot, let's just, let's keep it in the rivalry. Let's bring up our old guy, Garrett Nussmeier. I mean, he, he lost big this year, but he was still well compensated to do it. And at the end of the day, I saw he accepted a Senior bowl invite, so he's going to still, he's going to still go have a chance to prove his bona fides and get drafted into the NFL. So the downside, I just don't. Is anywhere near as scary as it was five, six years ago.
- [55:59]
Dane Brugler
If teams like you, they usually don't sour on you to the point where it's just disastrous. I mean, Garrett Nussm. Yeah, he's not gonna be the first round pick. Like a lot of people thought he could be, but I mean, he could still be a third round pick and teams still really like him. So, you know, I, if teams like Chambliss now, I, I'M sure they'll still like him next year.
- [56:19]
Dave Hellman
Watching him navigate Mazador and Reuben Bane will be incredibly fun and he is well suited to do it. He is. I mean, I liked him the moment I watched him against, I think it was Tulane. But like credit.
- [56:33]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, I liked him on first.
- [56:35]
Dave Hellman
I liked him as like, wouldn't this be cool kind of thing. Like, you know, maybe, maybe somebody likes him in the sixth or seventh round. I did not see it getting to where it is right now. All right, we're going to take another quick break and then we'll be back to look at Dane's all Rookie Team Team.
- [56:53]
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- [57:53]
Dane Brugler
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- [57:56]
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- [57:56]
Dane Brugler
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- [58:03]
Dave Hellman
Oh yeah, huh?
- [58:04]
Dane Brugler
Discover is accepted where I like to shop.
- [58:06]
Dave Hellman
Come on baby.
- [58:07]
Dane Brugler
Get with the time times. Right. So we shouldn't get the parachute pants. These are making a comeback I think.
- [58:16]
Dave Hellman
Discover is accepted at 99 of places.
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Dane Brugler
That take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
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- [58:44]
Dave Hellman
All right, Dane, in the last little bit of the show, I did want to take a look at the all rookie team which you are publishing on the athletic.com this week. I'm not. It's Tuesday. I'm not sure if it's out yet.
- [58:54]
Dane Brugler
Thursday, I believe it's up.
- [58:55]
Dave Hellman
So, so we don't need to run through the entire thing. But I, we checked in about this at like the quarter mark of the season and the halfway point of the season. And it's funny when you and talk we're mainly talking about guys heading into the draft in 2026. We don't, we don't talk as much about what's been playing out over the course of the NFL season. So I'm always curious to pick your brain about this and let's. I'm just going to run through some ones that really interest me and let's start right off the jump. Jackson Dart as your first team all rookie quarterback, which halfway through the year I think we said it like Cam Ward was the guy by default. But Jackson Dart's playing great. But I'm a little curious about the guy that you left off of here.
- [59:41]
Dane Brugler
You talking about our, our guy in New Orleans?
- [59:44]
Dave Hellman
I, I sure am. I'm talking about Tyler Shuck.
- [59:47]
Dane Brugler
Well, part of me wanted to put Tyler Shuck there just because I felt like I was one of the bigger Tyler Shuck defenders throughout the draft process. Like there were people that they just found out his age and they were like, all right, I'm out. I'm not even, not even going to his age.
- [60:02]
Dave Hellman
And, and the fact that he transferred a bunch and like one, one bad throw from the combine line, like that.
- [60:08]
Dane Brugler
Was some, some type of disqualifier why he couldn't be a good player. But no, he was. Chuck was my runner up ahead of Cam Ward. But look, Jackson Dart and these, these awards are mostly stat driven. This isn't like who I would want for the next five years. This is who put up the best stats and the biggest impact over this, this rookie year. And with DART he had 11 starts and only one of those was, was with Malik Neighbors. So I think that's important context. He accounted for 24 touchdowns this year. That was easily the most among all rookie quarterbacks. Seven more than Cam Ward who had 17. And then you look at all the rate stats, it favors Dart and then what he, what he brought with his, with his legs as, as a quarterback, dual threat quarterback. Like he had more rushing yards this year than Alvin Kamara. The only quarterbacks who had more rushing yards were Josh Allen and Justin Herbert. So the impact that he brought and that's not to say that Cam Ward didn't show a lot of promise. And Tyler Shuck didn't have a, a really strong second half like when they benched. Who'd they bench in New Orleans? Spencer Rattler? Yeah. All I heard was, oh my, why are they doing this? I was saying it's about time. Like you need to see what you have with the second, second round pick and credit to Shuck. He was the only quarterback to win over half of his starts, the only rookie quarterback to win over half of his starts this year. Which, you know, he wasn't the only reason there was plenty of, you know, it's a, it's a very much a team game. But Tyler Schuck was a big part of that. Using both his legs and with his arm. You know, he was, I think I, he, he at least played to the level where the Saints can go into next year feeling like they have their quarterback for 2026. Now is he the long term answer? Time will tell, but for 2026, the Saints can feel like they have their quarterback.
- [62:06]
Dave Hellman
I'm mainly busting your chops. Cause I said on a show with Robert and Derek a couple weeks ago, like even after everything Tyler Shuck has done, if I was start, if I was starting a franchise with one of these two guys heading into the next season, I would take Jackson dart because the athleticism and the, the high level talent, I think it's just too much to ig and the stuff you just listed off is very enticing. But just in terms of who played better in 2025, I mean Tyler Schuck was, he was awesome. And maybe some of this is that I, I hate to say I wrote him off personally, I just wrote off the situation. I didn't think that there was going to be any chance that he would be able to show enough to have this job heading into 2026. And I was dead wrong. And I mean the guy had two 300 yard passing games. He was a catalyst in their wins, both of their wins against Carolina. He was a big catalyst in the upset at Tampa Bay that kind of sent Tampa's season spiraling. And he even, he even played well against like really good teams that they played. Like his first start against the Rams was nothing incredible, but he looked miles better than I would expect of a guy making his first NFL start against the super bowl contender. I just thought over the time that he got to play, he played quarterback more consistently well than any other rookie. Even if I would rather have Jackson dart in the long term.
- [63:33]
Dane Brugler
And that's, I think that's fair because I think Tyler Schuck deserves a lot of credit for the way he played down the stretch and in the way that, I don't know, it felt like the, the entire team responded to him. I don't know, it just felt different watching the Saints second half of the year compared to the first half. And so like I said, I, I don't, I don't know if he is really the, the long term answer, but I, you know, the Saints can feel great about going into 2026 feeling like they have a promising quarterback. That could be the long term answer. Might. Maybe he is, maybe he's not, but he could be. And the evidence is is all over the 2025 tape.
- [64:10]
Dave Hellman
I don't think anybody's terribly surprised to hear Travion Henderson as the all rookie running back. Runner up Ashton Genty Tetmillan and A. Mecca Buka are your rookie receivers despite late challenges by Jaden Higgins and Luther Burden. I think that's totally fair. I'm tempted to put Colston Loveland on my team if this is my team. But I, I think it's a good shout by you to have Tyler Warren being one of your tight ends but also Harold Fannin who had a remarkable rookie season on a team that was nowhere near as visible as the Bears. I think that's totally fair there.
- [64:47]
Dane Brugler
Look, look at you just embracing your Chicago.
- [64:51]
Dave Hellman
He's just, he's been awesome, man.
- [64:54]
Dane Brugler
He has been awesome. And, and that was. There were so many victory laps, you know, in September about how I can't believe the Bears took Loveland over Warren and like the overreactions to the first month of the season were kind of hilarious but you know it's I again these stats are mostly stat driven and Tyler Warren and Harold Fannin finished 1 and 2 in rookie tight end catches, receiving yards, receptions of 10 plus yards. And the thing with Fanon that I just, I the fact that he did it with the those quarterbacks in Cleveland and that offense, I love this stat. So two quarter or two, two NFL tight ends, not just rookies. Two NFL tight ends had more than 15 forced missed tackles this year. Trey McBride at 24 and Fannin had 22. Like what he gave to this offense after the catch and moving the chains, it was really made him a difference maker. So to me like that's why I gave him the edge. Even though yeah, if I was building a team tomorrow, give me Colson Loveland all day and you know we saw his impact down the stretch for Chicago and I'M I'm betting we'll see him make some noise in the play playoffs. But for this all rookie team taking the whole season into account, I'm going to give the, the edge to, to Warren and Fannin.
- [66:16]
Dave Hellman
Think about all the ways that Harold Fannin is a unicorn because like you especially at the tight end position, which we famously say is like so hard to transition to the NFL 21 years old. It's like you gotta be an incredible athlete. Well, he's, he's not like this incredible athlete. He falls to the third round of the draft. And I'll just, I'll say it if you're not willing to like if a tight end falls all the way to the third round, I'm not writing him off as a good player, but I'm probably writing him off as like this rookie star, you know, like it's hard to break into the lineup as a tight end if you're not this overwhelming first round pick like a Tyler Warren or a Colston Loveland or, or what have you. Then it's like, okay, well did you at least play at a football factory where you're going against the best of the best? No, he played at Bowling Green. Oh, well, well, is he at least, you know, like Arande Gadsden? Is he at least playing in an offense with an amazing quarterback like Justin Herbert who can get him the ball? Ah, not really.
- [67:12]
Dane Brugler
He's.
- [67:13]
Dave Hellman
These quarterbacks are actually pretty bad.
- [67:15]
Dane Brugler
And despite all was all right.
- [67:18]
Dave Hellman
I'm talking about in the NFL though.
- [67:20]
Dane Brugler
Oh, oh yes, definitely that.
- [67:22]
Dave Hellman
Just the, the guy had nothing working in his favor. That typically works for a guy that breaks out like this. And here he is with 700 yards and six touchdowns as a rookie.
- [67:32]
Dane Brugler
Rookie. I think the thing that really helped him was the, the Brown staff. Stefanski and those guys, Tommy Reese, they really believed in him. I think it was, it was Maze actually who on his training camp tour after he left Cleveland, he texted me and said man, they, the way they feel about Fannin, like he, he could, he could be a dude this year. And that, that type of belief and confidence in a player and giving him those opportunities, we, we saw what it could, what it could mean. It's like when talent meets opportunity. And that's Harold Fannin this year. So with David Njoku, maybe played his last game in Cleveland, Fannin's gonna be the top guy on the depth chart. I mean he was most of this year anyways because Njoku was hurt. But Fannin, he's gonna be the guy who is we'll see what they do at receiver in the off season, but he's gonna go into next year as one of their, their key contributors on offense.
- [68:25]
Dave Hellman
Jones, your offensive tackles. I don't think anybody would be surprised to hear Armand Mimbu is here and you did you listed Will Campbell as a runner up which is totally fair. Phenomenal season on his part. But I was really pumped to see you give Kelvin Banks of the New Orleans Saints some love who get very quietly for even with their late season surge. Not a, not a good team. They're picking in the top 10 of the draft. But, but I thought he was really, really phenomenal without as much visibility as, as a guy like Will Campbell got.
- [68:59]
Dane Brugler
And I think if Will Campbell played the entire year because he did have that four game stretch where he was hurt, he was out because Will Campbell played at an exceptional level all year and I mean who knows if the Patriots win the NFC east without having that left tackle. But Kelvin Banks played, I mean he was on pace to play like almost every snap for the Saints this year until he was an ankle injury in Week 18. But Banks played at a pretty high level himself. There were some hiccups in pass protection like you would expect from a rookie. Gave up more, more pressures than you want to see. But for the most part Kelvin Blanks, Kelvin Banks played pretty well. Memboo to me was a top tackle that I saw this year as well.
- [69:41]
Dave Hellman
That's been your guy this whole time.
- [69:43]
Dane Brugler
21 years old and to play at that level from the start, from the get go, just awesome. Like it's funny how. Not funny, but ironic I guess with the jets the, the question for how long was the offensive line. Now it feels like the offensive line is the only promising part of that team or at least on offense moving forward. And MBU is a big part of that.
- [70:05]
Dave Hellman
Looking through the rest of this again, you can check it out on the Athletic on Thursday. I can't help but notice selfishly The Cowboys first two picks of 2025 major list. Tyler Booker as a first team interior offensive line, Donovan Ezraku as a runner up. But we'll take the silver linings where we can get them.
- [70:26]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, and Ezra Rocku I think was just rock solid all year. He only had two sacks but you know he did a really nice job in the run game. You know he had to get 36 pressures so you know he, he deserves to be talked about. And both Falcons pass rushers, you know they, a lot was made of obviously the, the trade up that they made to go get James Pierce. Not that I will say was worth it because I, I still don't think it was. But Pierce played, I think what you. What they were hoping that he would be in terms of getting to the quarterback. Led all rookies with 10 and a half sacks. The only rookie to have double digit sacks this year. Year. That's that, that's something that at least the, the Falcons can hang on to as they kind of bring in a, a new era next year.
- [71:15]
Dave Hellman
I'm with you. I'm not convinced it was worth it. And you know the metrics say that Pierce was good. Not the, an overwhelming force or anything like that. But giving up that pick with Pierce sitting on ten and a half sacks feels a hell of a lot better than giving up that pick. And he couldn't get on the field or he just wasn't productive. So I will, I will say that.
- [71:38]
Dane Brugler
And Jalen Walker was my other runner up at Edgersher because he was impactful as well he would. There's a stat called splash plays that are Austin Mock, you know keeps really close tabs on that really puts together pressures, negative tackles, third, fourth down stops, just really all the negative plays days for a defensive player. And Jalen Walker had one of the highest splash player rates and his impact I think goes well beyond what just the stat sheet says and the sacks and those numbers. So both Falcons first round picks play pretty well as rookies.
- [72:14]
Dave Hellman
So it kind of goes without saying Abdul Carter was one of your rookie of the year edge or all rookie edge rushers, which makes perfect sense. We haven't talked about this in a minute. Does Carter's late season surge change your stance on defensive rookie of the Year? Cause I kind of, I've felt like it was Carson Swessinger's award to lose for a long time at this point. But we know Carter's got crazy good pressure numbers. He's had good pressure numbers all season. His quick pressure numbers are insane. You add three and a half sacks to that over the last whatever month of the season it was. I, I can, I can see it if you think he should be rookie of the year. For me, I think it's still Swissinger. But what do you think?
- [72:59]
Dane Brugler
I think Schlesinger already has the place on his bookcase picked out for.
- [73:03]
Dave Hellman
I think you're right. I think you're right.
- [73:05]
Dane Brugler
Schwechinger spoiler. But yeah, he's my top linebacker on this all rookie team. I like the stat. So he's the only NFL player this year not rookie just NFL player with over 150 tackles, at least 10 tackles for loss and at least two interceptions. That has it like that's only happened like two or three times the last 12 years. And like Roquan Smith did it a couple years ago, Luke Keakley did it but we're talking about like legit all pro linebacker play and Schwechinger did it banged up by the way. I mean he was talking to some scouts about what he was working through this year year and it's just amazing he played at this level while being that injured and eventually he did have to go on IR didn't play week 18 so he did this all in a 16 game type of season. Schlesinger to me it's and honestly I think it's Schwechinger. I'd probably go Nick Emanwari and then Abdul Carter would be my top three but you know all three had really good years.
- [74:08]
Dave Hellman
Emanwari is a good shout and he is on this list as well which look just looking over your list just what a what a fun year in the back seven for for the NFL really coming Schinger's amazing Jihad Campbell tailed off a little bit but still a very promising look rookie season and then you look through the secondary Nick Em and worry Jacob Parrish and Upton Stout. That's just at nickel. It's just, it's disgusting that there's that much competition for like best nickel of best nickel rookie rookie nickel of the year because all three of those guys had phenomenal seasons. Xavier Watts and Malachi Starks with Jonas Sanker and Craig Woodson as the runners up at safety. Even cornerback Quincy Riley in New Orleans, Will Johnson in Arizona. Like lot of good secondary play from this rookie class now that I'm looking at it all laid out in one place.
- [75:03]
Dane Brugler
Denzel Burke. I mean the Cardinals have to feel good about their cornerback depth chart going into next year with the way Burke played Will Johnson play played Noel Williams for the Chiefs. Way he played over the last month of the season was outstanding. He was a guy that probably had.
- [75:20]
Dave Hellman
Chiefs fans wondering what the hell took so long if I had to guess.
- [75:23]
Dane Brugler
And and he did have you know he was a role player early on. He had his moments but seeing him get his chance and then playing at the level that he did was was awesome. And he was always someone that didn't have the speed. Like he wasn't a big speed guy but he had the competitive toughness, the awareness, the you physicality it all that was off the Charts. It's just. Was he fast enough? I, I don't know. I mean I think going into next year he'll be competing for a starting job and to me he belongs in a starting lineup somewhere. But yeah, he's part of that mix. Yeah you the nickels were crazy this year Em and worry Jacob Parrish, Upton Spout, Upton Stout, all three of those guys got an opportunity and they ran with it.
- [76:05]
Dave Hellman
I'm straight up mad. If you listen to our shows with Robert and Derek, you know, like I'm an upston Upton Stout fan, Stan and I'm like, I'm mad that he's only a runner up but then you look at what immun warrior and Parrish did and you're like yeah, no that's, that's the correct order. But it just speaks to how well.
- [76:23]
Dane Brugler
They played and you can't watch also all three of those, you know, the Seahawks, the Bucks, the 49ers, you can't watch those defenses play without feeling the presence of that nickel position and what those guys brought to the field. Upton Stout, I give him a lot of credit. Like I love liked him in the process but he's 5, 8 and a half, 180 pounds. So like you don't want to be a size this, you don't want to like just write them off. And, and I didn't, I mean I thought he was a fourth, fifth round pick but they, I believe he went a third round and he's making this San Francisco 49ers look absolutely right. Emin worry I was, I'm still shocked that he didn't go in the first round. I mean I think the tape, the traits, it, it, it all said first round, it all said said top 20 and he fell to the, I was like the 35th pick so one of the first picks on day two and it looks like a steal for the Seahawks. I mean he's you, you felt his presence out there with the way he played every level, whether he's close to line of scrimmage, whether he's in the deep half. You felt what Nick Emman, Warri brought to the field and, and my guy, Jacob Parrish, same type of thing.
- [77:27]
Dave Hellman
The lesson I learned from Eminwari and it's not that like I, I mean he's an incredible athlete, fun player, but like, like where you land matters, right? And from here on out when I, when I see Mike McDonald draft a defender with a big time pick, I'm just, I'm going to be way, way more interested because if he's got a vision for you, then I'm, I'm pretty excited to see what it is.
- [77:52]
Dane Brugler
I mean, Byron Murphy 2 years ago in the draft, Byron Murphy's awesome. And then see what they did this past year. I think you're absolutely right.
- [78:01]
Dave Hellman
You know what another lesson I learned just from looking at this, and I think it's, it's prescient given the draft cycle that we're about to head into, but it's, it's easy to, to act like a draft class is, is bad or down or, you know, we don't. Where's the star power in this draft? What's the top 10 going to look like? And all that stupid stuff. And then we get to the end of the 2025 season, which, which people weren't very excited about last year's draft either, and you look at it on paper and you're like, holy shit, there were a lot of good rookies playing good football this year. And it'll be the same case with this one. Might not, might not be the top 10 or it might not be the quarterback position, but we're about to draft a bunch of really fun football players into the league.
- [78:47]
Dane Brugler
There's no doubt about it. And I think that I mentioned linebacker, edge rusher, tight end. Those three positions are, are especially loaded in this class where even if you don't, we're not talking about them first round. I mean the guys second, third, fourth round of those positions will make impacts next year. Xavier Watts was a 96th pick last April and you know, he was second in the league in interceptions with five. So, you know, you think the Falcons feel good about making that pick, which, you know, a surprise. He lasted as long as he did, but it ended up working for, for both sides. And I, I think that's a really good point because the, the star power might be lacking in the 20, 20, 26 class, but there will be plenty of depth at some key positions that will be on the field next year as NFL players and will make an impact.
- [79:33]
Dave Hellman
Looking forward to finding out more about who they are and where they're going to go. We will be doing that all spring. Real quick before we get out of here, though, Dan, you've been doing it to me for the last few weeks, so it's my turn to put you on the spot. We do, we do have two college games to play. Who, what is your national championship matchup? Who's winning these semifinals?
- [79:54]
Dane Brugler
I guess I'm gonna go Indiana Ole Miss. I, I think Indiana went to Austin and beat Oregon. So, you know, we, it's hard to do it twice, be at the same team twice, but I think they can do it. And then I'll just go with the better quarterback. You know, it's Carson Beck hasn't had to win a game for Miami, you know, in the playoffs. It's, it's been, you know, just making the right decisions at the line and taking care of the football, not turning it over. He has not had to make. There is not one throw in against A and M or against Ohio State that made you sit up and say, oh, that's an NFL throw. Now maybe he'll be able to, he'll be forced to do that in this game and we'll see how it goes. But up to this point he hasn't had to do it. So I'll go with the better quarterback even though I don't, I don't feel great about it. But I, I do think that Oregon Indiana game will be, it should be a lot of fun. What about you? What do you, what are to do you going with?
- [80:51]
Dave Hellman
I'm starting to get a team of destiny vibe from Indiana and I, like we've talked about it all year. Alabama is not that Alabama. But to just wipe them off the field the way that they did and just bully them around on both sides of the ball, it spoke volumes to me. And you, you add that like the ability to boss a game like that with a quarterback like Mendoza, I just think that's a tough combination to beat. So I mean.
- [81:21]
Dane Brugler
I was kind of thinking the same thing with Miami, just because of the way that they're clicking at the right time.
- [81:26]
Dave Hellman
I don't completely trust Beck though. Like, I don't trust back as much as I trust Mendoza.
- [81:31]
Dane Brugler
Yeah, but it's the defense that. Cause there were times this year like throw on the SMU tape, throw on the Louisville tape and you don't even notice Reuben Bane out there. You know, like it was a very up and down season for him in terms of his overall impact. Impact. But he's playing, you know, some of his best ball right now. Include Mezador in that conversation as well. So if the defense, and I mean I, I, I express my love for Keonte Scott last podcast and you know, I'll do it again now because that pick six that he had against Ohio State was just unbelievable.
- [82:05]
Dave Hellman
I've never been prouder of us than I was when. I know, and I know, I know it came against the Buckeyes, but I, when he picked that off, I Was like, man, I'm glad we spent five minutes talking about that, because, Guy, there's.
- [82:17]
Dane Brugler
No more disruptive nickel near the line of scrimmage in college football than Keante Scott. So the way that the. I, I agree with you on Beck, but the way the Miami defense has been playing and the way the offensive line has been playing, you know that they're giving back time where he's not forcing things. And Ohio State had. They couldn't get to him. So if the defense and the offensive line plays like that, at that high of a level, level like they did against Ohio State, Miami's gonna be tough to beat.
- [82:47]
Dave Hellman
That's. That's kind of where I landed. So I'll take Indiana as. I mean, I think Indiana's gonna win the national title based on what we've seen over the last few weeks, but I'll take Indiana. And then it's funny, we came, We. We applied different logic to the same thing where I'm like, okay, Ole Miss has the better quarterback. I like everything else about Miami more and that pass rush. Miami's offensive line, I think they win the trenches. And unless Trinidad Chambers just once again plays the game of his life, which he might.
- [83:18]
Dane Brugler
Right.
- [83:19]
Dave Hellman
But I think I'll take Miami to just win the trenches and be the more overwhelming roster. And I'm taking Indiana. Miami.
- [83:29]
Dane Brugler
Part of me just wants to see Lane Kiffin as a living embodiment of the Larry David gif, where just like. Because if Ole Miss wins it all, how he gets what, a million dollars? I mean, as a. As a bonus. But then he'll have to watch his team win without him. It just be a bizarre circumstance that really sums up what college football is right now.
- [83:53]
Dave Hellman
I do my best to be objective, and I'm on the record as a Trinidad fan over the course of the entire season, so you can't take that away from me. But I'd be lying if I said, as an alum of lsu, I just don't. I don't need that in my life. I don't need to watch my school's coach watch his team make a run to the national title game like that sounds.
- [84:16]
Dane Brugler
It'd be bizarre to watch. It'd be just something we've never seen before. And I don't know, it'd be. Not that I'm rooting for it. It'd just be fascinating as hell to watch.
- [84:27]
Dave Hellman
If Ole Miss gets there, it'll be because Trinidad did some awesome stuff. So I'll take solace in that and we'll see what happens happens. Dane, love chatting with you as always man. We'll be back next week. Thanks so much. We'll talk to you soon.
- [84:53]
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- [85:08]
Dane Brugler
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- [86:01]
Dave Hellman
Discover is accepted at 99% of places.
- [86:03]
Dane Brugler
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