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The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
Building the Beast: Tight end draft class breakdown
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- [00:00]
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Dave Hellman
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Dan Brugler
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Dave Hellman
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Dan Brugler
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Dave Hellman
Welcome to a new episode of Building the Beast. I am your host, Dave Hellman, and this is really what I dreamed about when I knew I was going to be doing a podcast with Dan Brugler. The show's called Building the Beast. Of course we're going to talk about the major prospects and the movement at the top of the NFL draft, but we want to do a podcast for people who want to know about hand sizes for day three tight ends. Like that is who we want to talk to and what we want to talk about. And that's exactly what we did today as we inch closer to the 2026 NFL Draft, as we get closer to the actual release of the Beast. If you're listening to this right now, we are two weeks out from the release of Dane's annual draft guide on April 8th. Keep an eye out for it. And with that approaching, we want to dive into the actual positions. And what better place to start than one of the most loaded tight end classes I can remember. In my time covering the NFL draft, Dana and I had a blast going through as many prospects as we possibly could. We talked about the top guys, you know, the first round picks, the top 50 picks. But we spent a solid chunk of this show working through just, just a log jam of day three tight ends. A really, really fun conversation for our draft Knicks. Let's get right to it. Well, Dan, I got to tell you, I'm really excited for today's episode, man, because we call this building the Beast. And if you've ever looked at the Beast, the digital copy, which is wonderful now I have like 10 of the old paper bound copies still in my files somewhere. They weigh like 30 pounds. Every time I have to move, it's terrible. But the whole point of the Beast is that every prospect is in there. And when, when I knew we were going to do this show, I wanted to make sure that we got real sicko with it and real granular with it. And we don't want to spend every episode just debating the top 50 prospects over and over again. That's, that's fun to do. But we're a month out from the draft. We are, I believe, two weeks away from the release of the Beast. We have a date on that, right?
- [04:04]
Dan Brugler
Yeah. Yeah, you're right. It's two weeks. That's just.
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Dave Hellman
Did I just scare. Did I just give you. Send you into a spiral a little bit.
- [04:10]
Dan Brugler
I mean, there's just a lot to do until then. It's. This is. So many teams wait for this final week of March for pro days, and it just really throws a wrench in things. Like every day this week there's, you know, multiple high level programs going and then Indiana is not until next week. They're the last ones. And then we've got some personal pro days in April. But yeah, these final two weeks are always the, the craziest. Trying to get everything edited, trying to get in these last Bits of information. But the nice thing with it on the site now is, you know, we can update it if there's, you know, a late pro day or something like that. So that. That does help a little bit. But, yeah, it's. We're getting close to that finish line.
- [04:57]
Dave Hellman
I know it doesn't make your life any easier, but it does mimic the actual rhythm of these NFL front offices. I mean, I was just talking to somebody yesterday, like, all. All the staffs, all the front offices are still in the process of zigzagging the country. I mean, you saw how well represented the NFL was at Miami's pro day on Monday afternoon. LSU on if. I think it was Monday morning as well. Like, I mean, teams are still very marathon out gathering data, and I don't think most teams get into the room and really finalize their board until the next. I would say that starts in the next, like, 10 days or so.
- [05:35]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, I. Talking to a guy yesterday, scout, it was at the Miami. He was at FIU in the morning, then goes to Miami for the afternoon. And then today he's somewhere else. I can't remember. But, I mean, it's. It's. It's another. It's. I think Auburn maybe, and then Alabama the next day. Like, it's just one day after another. You're. You're kind of at a different spot. It's a marathon. So, yeah, pro days will finish up next week, and then teams will get together at the facility for final draft meetings, put the final touches on the board, got the medical rechecks coming up. The 30 visits, which. I think the 30 visits are kind of at a point where they're getting overblown. You know, I think people, first of all, can we. Can we stop with the top 30 visit? I think the top 30. When people say top 30, it's really deceiving. It doesn't mean. Mean anything.
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Dave Hellman
It's just a 30.
- [06:28]
Dan Brugler
Just a 30 visit. It's. It's. Teams get 30 of them and that's it. And I think. I think a lot of fans would be surprised about some of these guys that are getting invited to the facility for a 30 visit and then immediately crossed off the list. Like, it's not just an assumption that, oh, he's a 30 visit. They must love him or. No, if they love them, probably not getting a 30 visit because they have all the answers they need. Usually the guys that are going for 30 visits are something where there's still lingering questions or we need to find out more about this guy. And how is he going to fit in our building? And whether it's something medical related or, you know, a personality thing or, you know, there's a lot of different reasons why teams use these 30 visits. And so I, I wouldn't make any sweeping proclamations about anybody going on a 30 visit to a specific team, just a PSA on those.
- [07:21]
Dave Hellman
It's a 30 visit to say, hey, let's get a closer look at this knee. Or hey, yeah, let's make this guy spend 36 hours with us and see if he, if he doesn't drive us crazy.
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Dan Brugler
Yeah, exactly. A lot of it's personality driven. It's. It's crazy how, you know, like we, the interview didn't go great at the combine. We think he's kind of a weird guy. Is he really going to gel within our offensive line room? Like, let's bring him in for a 30 visit and really put him through it and see how he holds up. And yeah, that's that. It's kind of the part of the draft process that doesn't get talked about enough is the mental, mental and personality part. Just to see if these guys fit into the culture and what these teams are going to be asking of these guys.
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Dave Hellman
Well, in this day and age too, like, when I first started covering the draft, it was a slog to get the names and very rarely would you get all 30 of them and you still typically don't, but you could. It was like follow. It felt much more like you were following the breadcrumbs because you had to work really hard to get those names. These days, it's, it's out there all the time. Like most teams have a sizable chunk of their visits list leaked and teams know that at this point. And so I think if you really, really love a guy, you're. You might be trying to keep him out of your facility. So people don't know that.
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Dan Brugler
And most teams don't even use all 30. I mean, that's. Yeah, but I would say this. I some, I do pay attention to the non combine guys that are invited to a 30 or a local because you can't draft a player unless you have full medicals on them. And combine, okay, you've got full medicals on 318 guys. But the non combine players, those 30 visits, that's a, That's a big way, an important step in getting those medicals for the guys that weren't Indianapolis.
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Dave Hellman
One more thing I would just point out and then we can actually do the show. But teams can go to the prospect Whenever and however they choose. You know, there's a million different ways to get eyes on a prospect. That doesn't mean he has to be a 30 visit that comes to your facility. So I do think you're right that we've reached critical mass with the 30 visit stuff, but it is still really fun to see Jeremiah Love post a photo from the Titans facility and have everybody freak out. Like, I, I still enjoy that even if I don't put as much stock in it as I used to.
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Dan Brugler
Yeah, it's. It's part of the. Okay, the draft needs to get here already process.
- [09:51]
Dave Hellman
Yeah, exactly. All right. In. In the spirit of the draft getting here, that's what we want to do today. I, I want to dive into some prospects. I got this idea when I saw you tweet a week or two ago just about how good the tight end class is and how overwhelmed you are trying to sort them out. And so I, I want to talk about it. And we're going to do this a few times in this final month before the draft. Robert and Derek will be part of it as well. But here on Building the Beast, we want to make sure we're diving into a lot of positions with some granularity and getting beyond the top 50 or whatever players. So that's what we're going to do today. And we're going to start with the tight end class, which we've been talking since October about how loaded this thing is. So let's really get into it, man. Let's. Let's just try to talk about as many tight ends as we can. Obviously you could probably do 50. I'll try my best to keep up. I spent the last two days grinding through cutups and familiarizing myself with day three guys. So I.
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Dan Brugler
Lot of good ones.
- [10:52]
Dave Hellman
I am not you, but I feel ready to go. And so let's. Let's just jump right into it. I would rather. I. I want to get through the big guys quickly. Like, I. I don't know. I don't know what we need to say about Kenyan Sadiq on a show called Building the Beast on March 24th. He's the top tight end in this class. He reset what tight ends are capable of doing at the combine last month. He's versatile. He can do a little bit of everything. I guess if we're going to talk about Kenyan Sadiq quickly before we move on, can you. Without. Without trying to kill the guy, can you give me a reason why he like, a. A reason not to draft him as highly as he might be drafted. Like if there is a flaw in Kenyan Sadiq, what do you think it is?
- [11:36]
Dan Brugler
Well, he doesn't have traditional tight end size. He's six three, 240 pounds, 31 and a half inch arms and you know that does show up when you talk about his blocking responsibilities. And he's a really competitive blocker, a split zone, second level lead blocks but in terms of an inline guy or yeah, you know, you don't really want him matched up on a defensive end very often and so. But you know the reason we're talking about him as a first round pick is what he can do as a pass catcher more so than anything else. He did have six drops last year and so just being a little more consistent finishing catches that that's something you want to see. But he's, he made so many just rescue balls where the ball placement was off and he had to go rescue it that I, I don't have major questions about his hands. It's more just being a little more consistent in that area. But yeah, I think you're right. He was tight end one from the start. He was I think 18 overall in my top 50 back in August and he was right around that same place in mid season and even now today it's kind of in that same spot. So he's a, a good player. Not quite on the Brock Bowers level, but he's a good player. He's going to come in, be a starter pretty quickly.
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Dave Hellman
Do you think? And like the, the 4 3, 9, 40 is so enticing and just jumping out of the gym, all the physically freaky stuff that he can do. Do you think we're glossing over the fact that he is a size outlier and a pretty big one? You know, I mean 6, 3, 2, 41 I think was his combine weigh in. It's. You're not talking about a big dude and even if you're not going to put him up on the line of scrimmage for the bulk of his snaps or at least not for every snap that still is, is fairly small by first round tight end standards. Clearly that doesn't worry you based on your evaluation. But is that getting talked about enough?
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Dan Brugler
I mean it should be talked about. It's, it's part of his profile. But I think, you know, you look at Sam Laporta, not the biggest guy. I mean the way that the tight end position is used in today's nf, it's I think less about making sure he fits in this perfect size length. You Know measurement, dimension, box and more about. Okay, what is your, what makes you a difference making player at this position. And for Sadiq, it's his ability down the field. Maybe 13 catches of 20 plus yards. Okay, that'll play. He can win down the seam, he can win after the catch. He's really fluid. The route tree at Oregon was three levels. So, you know, it's not like you're going to be asking him to do something totally different once he gets to the league. You know, he is really good after the catch as well. So I, he can be a dynamic playmaker. It's just, you know, I think how you use him will be more similar to a Sam Laporta as opposed to how some of these other tight ends are used.
- [14:38]
Dave Hellman
We all love Mr. Sadiq. I would say we assume he'll be gone by somewhere in the top 20 picks. We know this enough. We can set that aside. Cause like I said, let's, let's go, let's go deeper and now let's. All right, so we're pretty sure Sadiq is the only tight end with a realistic shot to get drafted on Thursday.
- [14:59]
Dan Brugler
Yes.
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Dave Hellman
So let's move to day two guys that we would imagine are second and third round picks. There's a few borderline guys between Friday and Saturday grades, but it's a shorter list and we'll just, we'll go through them. Do you want to go through them in your order or do you just want me to pull them at random?
- [15:20]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, just pull them at random. Because I, I do think I'll say this, it's going to be interesting with these day two tight ends because obviously they're flawed enough where we're not talking about them as first round picks. And it's just, you have to, teams have to decide are they good enough to take here in this range when it is a loaded tight end class in rounds four or five in that area. And so, and we'll talk about those guys here in a minute. And so these teams have to ask themselves, all right, is this guy special enough or impactful enough where we should take him here in the second or take him here in the early third or should we go for our tackle or guard or whatever and then just wait for round four where there's going to be 10 tight ends that we feel good about. So I, I think that this, these day two tight ends are going to be really interesting just on draft night on that Friday night to see how early they come off the board, what order. I'm just, I'M really eager to see how this whole thing plays out.
- [16:20]
Dave Hellman
All right, so announcement. We are not going in any sort of order. This is not a. A ranking. This is just. We're just covering as many guys as possible. So with that in mind, can we start with my new draft crush?
- [16:33]
Dan Brugler
Who you got?
- [16:34]
Dave Hellman
So I know exactly who he is. I've known the name since August. We talked about him on the preseason show. But when you catch, like, 18 passes during the course of your final college season, it's fine to. I, I, I put you on the back burner, Me personally. But let's talk about Georgia tight end Oscar Delp. Dane, let's talk about Oscar Delp, dude, because this guy is fun as, man. Like, I, I felt like I was watching an action movie watching this guy play on my laptop on Monday night, getting ready for this show.
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Dan Brugler
Short action movie.
- [17:11]
Dave Hellman
I mean, you're, you're right. But you know what, though? I'm at a point, Dane, and we've talked about this. Call it. Call it the Jackson Hawes effect, but, like, I don't really care how great you are at catching the ball. Like, obviously, I want to see you be able to get downfield and, and I want you to have good enough hands. I want to see some contest, contested catchability. I want to know that that stuff is there, and we know it's there for Oscar Delp. I mean, he does have those moments. What I care about, dude, this guy can block his ass off, man. And I swear, like, if you watch a dozen tight ends in a row blocking, most of them are good, adequate. But it's a lot of, like, it's a lot of get in the way. It's a lot of, like, let me engage with this guy and hang on for dear life before I break out into my route. Oscar Delp is a violent, aggressive blocker, and, like, the number of clips I could pull up of him smacking his dude in the face with his helmet because of the intensity and the aggression that he's blocking with. It made me sit up in my seat, and I was. I was enamored with it, to be honest with you. And then you factor in the fact that he just ran a 448 at his pro day. I came away with a lot to, like for a guy that's never caught more than 24 passes.
- [18:29]
Dan Brugler
Yeah. His pro day. So he was flagged at the combine for a hairline fracture in his left foot. Wasn't allowed to work out. Wasn't so. And he. He really didn't even know about it. So he played, he played the whole year with it.
- [18:43]
Dave Hellman
Yeah.
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Dan Brugler
But legally he wasn't allowed to work out at the combine even though he wanted to. So he had to wait till his pro day and still dealing with this issue and still worked out. He. So at 245 pounds, ran a 44938 inch vertical, 105 in the broad jump. Pretty explosive numbers for a guy that size. And I, I think you're right. I mean I agree with pretty much everything you said. He's a really physical player in every aspect. Receiving, blocking. He models his game after AJ Barner, which I think is interesting. He's. Delp is not as big and I wish you were a little bit longer. Sometimes you see that on film where, especially as a blocker where he's lunging a little bit big, try to compensate for that lack of leng. But he. You love the, the tenacity that he plays with, the competitiveness. I, the lack of production is. And Look, I'm, I'm Mr. Traits Over Production. Okay. Like that's. I, I believe in that wholeheartedly.
- [19:45]
Dave Hellman
I. But it sounds like there's a, there's a butt. Yeah, there was a but coming.
- [19:48]
Dan Brugler
Okay. But Brock Bowers was the key piece of this offense for how many. You know, it was three years basically.
- [19:54]
Dave Hellman
I know. That's a good point.
- [19:55]
Dan Brugler
Brock Bowers leaves and it's like, all right, Del's gonna be the next guy up. And he couldn't reach 25 catches in any single season. And it's not like he missed time. He started double digit games every single year the last three years, yet he was never a central part of that offense. And it's like, all right. Like you don't just. You have to really dig to figure out just how you feel about that. And that's, that's why I think Del spent on a lot of these 30 visits to teams as they try to figure him out. Just better understand what's going on there. You know why? Because the Flashes are awesome. He might be the ultimate grades to the Flashes guy. Like there's a few of these players in this draft where they're grade. If you grade to the Flashes, then you're going to like them a lot more than what the body work says. Like Peter woods, defensive tackle from Clemson's, one of those guys. Oscar Delp absolutely is one of those players in this draft where if you grade to the Flashes, you see an NFL starter, you see a guy that's going to be gone, you know, somewhere in the top 75 picks and it's just a matter of which teams are going to be willing to do that. What which teams are going to be having a little more question marks. But I totally get your excitement with the player.
- [21:07]
Dave Hellman
Here's, here's my cope and it might be cope. I can afford to be a little more reckless than you. It's my calling card unfortunately. But I'm, I'm watching Georgia and obviously the Bulldogs had have Gunner Stockton at quarterback. He's a first year starter. He got in late in the season before because Carson Beck got hurt. But Gunner Stockton, not a guy who would play a lot of football coming in most of these games. I'm watching of Oscar Delp. They're leaving him in to like help deal with like defensive linemen. Like you'll see plenty of clips of him Mano Emano with edge rushers and you know he's, he's not going to be an offensive tackle at the next level. I'm not saying it was always gorgeous, but in my mind I'm like, what if Georgia just thought Oscar Delp was more valuable than giving Gunner Stockton time and making his life easier than going out in the route? I mean that sounds a little counterproductive because of how athletic he is, but I found myself wondering that with how often Oscar Delp was just staying in and helping to deal with pressure.
- [22:15]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, and I get it but I mean Brock Bowers had like how many over 80 targets like in that offense? Like he was such a big part of what they wanted to do. And like this past year it was like all right, we have to get Zachariah Branch on this one yard whip route. Like we gotta do it. That's our offense. Like it's so true. I. But why, like if you have a talent like this, why aren't you using him more? And part of it too was lost and lucky. The other Georgia tight ends really good as well. I mean we'll be talking about him a year from now as a possible top 100 guy. And they had almost 50, 50 target share this year just in terms of the tight ends. So that part of it, you know that, that cuts into it. But still. And you know, you don't want to, you know, make again sweeping proclamations based off of just what the box score says. Takes a little more investigation than that. But yeah, but I'm with you. Overall, I'm a fan of the player. I think he will go somewhere on day two. I think, you know, third round at the latest. Maybe he sneaks in the second round, we'll see. But yeah, I think there's too much talent there. He grew up a big lacrosse player. Like, he thought he was going to be playing professional lacrosse, and then at some point, you know, football kind of took over and he turned into this. This hybrid guy. But he's a really interesting player in
- [23:39]
Dave Hellman
a world where a lot of tight ends are passive blockers. Just go watch Oscar Delp smash people for 10 minutes and tell me you're not a little bit excited.
- [23:49]
Dan Brugler
Yeah.
- [23:50]
Dave Hellman
All right, let's keep it pushing. We've talked a lot about this guy. I think we can do Eli Stowers out of Vanderbilt a little faster. He's a guy we've talked plenty about. Another guy who put on a combine showcase and he's. I think he's a little bit taller than Kenyan Sadiq. But am I off base for lumping him in as like the day two version of Kenyan Sadiq?
- [24:18]
Dan Brugler
I don't.
- [24:19]
Dave Hellman
He's not. I am off base. Okay, tell me.
- [24:23]
Dan Brugler
He's just very limited. Where with. With Sadiq, you. You can use him as a move blocker and, you know, like, he will be limited at certain situations in line like we talked about. But Stowers, I think, is really limited just overall as a blocker, like, you want him almost as a big slot like that. That's kind of his, you know, I think about like the Mike Gaseckis of the world where, you know, you can give him blocking assignments here and there, but you can tell he's a former quarterback who made the transition to tight end and he's done it really well, especially in terms of catching the football. But as a combo tight end, like, I don't think he's going to give you exactly what you're looking for. You're drafting him because of what he does in the passing game. You mentioned the combine numbers. That reflects his on field athleticism. It's just he's a. He's a tricky one because of just the way he was using that offense, the ways that he's going to limit you as a blocker. But if the right role comes around, I think a team's going to look at him and say, okay, he makes our offense more explosive. And, you know, I. So I just. It depends on where he ends up. That's a big part of this, that fit, which is so true about all these players we're going to talk about. But especially a guy like this, that that fit category is so crucial for a guy like Stowers.
- [25:49]
Dave Hellman
I really like the Gasecki shout out. Like, I think that makes a lot of sense and like, the thing that excites me most about watching him is he is, he's the guy that you can get enamored with because he's somebody that can go downfield and high point a ball in the seam, like 18, 25 yards downfield. And like, it's, it's easy to get enamored with that type of player, even if he's not as well rounded as you would prefer.
- [26:14]
Dan Brugler
And he's catches the ball really well, like for a former quarterback is like, I think 3.9% drop rate in his career. You know, his, his catch radius is pretty good. He can make adjustments, bail out the quarterback. I, I do think that his experience as a quarterback helps him as a route runner just in terms of steps and understanding how to read coverages, find those passing windows. He's a lighter, just really graceful down the seam. He can sink, cut and create his own separation. So, I mean, there's a lot of things about Stowers that I, I think really translates well. It's just he's not going to be for everybody because of how, how specialized he is. And that's true about, you know, a lot of guys. Whether you're talking about, you know, Keonte, Scott Nickel from Miami, like, he's a awesome player, but he's really specialized with how you want to use him as an attacking nickel. It's, it's the same thing. We can, you know, every position, there's guys like this that are a little more specialized than you'd like, but in the right role, they could do something that's pretty impactful.
- [27:20]
Dave Hellman
I feel like even as recently as, like three, four years ago, everybody would have been super in on Eli Stowers. And, and not to say people aren't. I mean, you have him as a day two grade, but I, I feel like we're rounding back into a place where people want to see you do more as a blocker because of what we've seen now, you know, tight ends do for their offenses with that ability. And like you said, not, not to say he can't make an impact, but I think people would have been higher on this guy a few years ago.
- [27:50]
Dan Brugler
Can, can he get to serviceable? That's what teams need to ask themselves. As a blocker, can he be a, become a serviceable blocker for us? If, if you believe the answer is yes, then you're going to feel a lot better about drafting him. And somewhere in the top 75.
- [28:05]
Dave Hellman
So you have one more definitive day two grade and we'll do the borderline guys in a minute. The last of the definitive day two guys is a guy we've mentioned plenty of times, Ohio State's Max Claire, who just feels like an all around solid player. Like that was my impression, if I'm being honest with you. Watching a few of his games from this past season, there wasn't one specific thing that got me excited, but I was just like, everything looks solid to me.
- [28:38]
Dan Brugler
And there were so many mouths to feed in that Ohio State offense that it did make it tough for him.
- [28:43]
Dave Hellman
To everybody we're going to talk about. It's really hard to evaluate a guy who gets the ball like three times a game at most.
- [28:51]
Dan Brugler
But he, he literally, he averaged under four targets per game in 2025 and so he did some really cool things at Purdue in 2024, goes to Ohio State for 2025 and made that offense better. He, he did. Especially when were hurt later in the year he took on more of a role and made some things happen. But the production's not going to jump out at you. But there's a lot to like about him as a player. He's really athletic. He can eat up grass quickly, especially see that on seams and crossers. He can throttle down, make these sharp, fluid cuts. I think he has a basic understanding of how to sell defenders with his hips with his eyes, tracks the ball really well, finishes in contested windows, blocker. He's going to give you just enough. He's competitive, he can wall off lanes. So I, there's a lot to like about Max Claire and we don't have. He didn't work out at the combine. His testing will be this week, probably Wednesday. So as you're listening to this, he's probably hopefully testing at Ohio State's pro day in Columbus. So we'll get those numbers. They, I expect them to be pretty good and kind of cement his status as a day two guy.
- [30:00]
Dave Hellman
I really liked his movement, especially like once he gets the ball in his hands. Like he's got a surprising amount of giddy up in my opinion and like his foot skills are nice. I notice a lot of, a lot of teams ask their tight ends to block on the move. Like whether you like insert through, through a gap and try to wash a guy out or, or coming off the, you know, the edge. He didn't, he didn't move as well in space as I wanted him to. Like, I just, I thought like, like we'll, we'll talk about some other guys who, it looks like they're glued to their block where they can just pick that guy out of the hole time after time after time. And it's very impressive. Max Claire wasn't as consistent at that as I wanted him to be. For a guy with such a lofty grade. Not like, not a bad blocker at all. But I just, I think I went into it hoping for more when he
- [30:53]
Dan Brugler
was a 215lb soaking wet when he got to college. Like he, he's worked really hard behind the scenes to put on weight and really show that he could be, you know, a that level of blocker. So it's, it's a work in progress for sure. He was also a big baseball player. Like he went to Purdue as a dual sport guy and gave up baseball to focus on football. But I, I think that he is a player that's still the arrows up. Like we, we're, we're not close to seeing the fin with, with Clariette.
- [31:28]
Dave Hellman
Okay. So that if I'm not mistaken, is all of the sure fire day one and two grades that'll be in the Beast.
- [31:37]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, I think there's, and like I said, it'll be interesting with those day two guys because of how deep this class is and where teams are gonna feel comfortable with some of these guys. Maybe there's another one that will fit into that third round. You know, I, it's possible there's a few guys that are on, on the borderline, but that late third until I'd say the end of the fifth, that's where this thing just explodes.
- [32:02]
Dave Hellman
So. And Dane, I promise we're not going to hold it against you if some of this stuff shifts over the next month because I'm looking at it. You have 30 graded tight ends. We have talked about five of them, I believe, and we have. So we have 25 more to go on, you know, borderline. Day two and day three of the draft, we're going to get into the meat of this thing right after this break.
- [32:25]
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- [34:03]
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- [35:57]
Dave Hellman
All right, Dane, let's keep it pushing in our biggest tight end breakdown guy you've talked about plenty, a guy that you've really liked through this entire draft process. That would be NC NC State tight end Justin Jolie who's like again, like again I think, I would say on the list of guys that you think could sneak into day two potentially.
- [36:17]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, I think that's fair. I mean I, I, he reminds me a lot of Johnnu Smith. Who another guy that just kind of snuck into that day 2 type of range where you're looking for that, that move tight end, that f tight end. I think Jolie has a lot to offer with that type of archetype.
- [36:36]
Dave Hellman
92 catches for 1100 yards and 11 touchdowns across two seasons at NC State, which like I said, a lot of guys, a lot of college tight ends just don't get the ball that often. That's just a reality of the position at the college level and what you're asked to do and how good the offense you're in is or how many competing players there are for targets. It was not a problem for Justin Jolie and my God, I think a big part of it is if you have 10 and a half inch hands, 91st percentile hands. That's the first thing that stood out to me. When I look at a guy, I pull up their combine bio so I have their official numbers and I know what I'm looking at and my eyes went right to that. And then I watched, you know, 15 minutes of tape and I was like, well that stands out immediately. This guy's got Hoovers for hands. Like everything that comes near him just gets vacuum into his grip. And, and it makes him a lot of fun to watch. It makes him a Contested catch monster. Like, I love watching him over the middle of the field, and he's very good at plucking footballs off of DB's helmets. It's very fun.
- [37:40]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, and he's another guy that really worked hard to put on the weight. He was 190 pounds as a high school senior, like, barely recruited. Went to UConn as a receiver, a wide receiver, then made that transition to tight end. And he just keeps getting better and better, I think every single year. And this year, the production wasn't maybe as much as 20, 24. But you, you watch an NC State offense and you, you watch that the way they operate. And as inconsistent as it was, their best option was going to the tight end, especially when they got down in the red zone, especially on money downs. He has the ability to get open and make the quarterback. Right? So he has speed, he can work, work the, the seam, he can work the rail at. He's really coordinated. So, you know, he can stack, he can separate. And then you mentioned it, the focus, the physicality really helps him finish in traffic. Like it. The focus does not wane whether he's wide open or he's got a crowd around him. And as a blocker, he competes, especially the Wham blocks and the lead blocker, he does a really nice job. So, yeah, Justin Jolie is just a really solid player that I want in my tight end room. And if he snuck into the top 100, I don't think it'd be that big of a surprise.
- [38:58]
Dave Hellman
So that's what I was going to ask you. I'll be, I'll be blunt. The college tape game is the wild West. Like, it's not NFL pro, where you can go get every single game you have to by hooker, by crook. You got to do some shady stuff to get college tape. For the most part, I don't feel as though I got a good handle on Justin Jolie's blocking ability. I just didn't have access to enough stuff to have a good feel for it. But you think he's. He's adequate at least?
- [39:28]
Dan Brugler
I think he's competitive. Yeah, I, I think that especially like I said, those Wham blocks where, you know, you see him get physical at the point of attack and he's going to stay after it. He's going to finish through the whistle. Yeah, I think he's good enough in those areas where, you know, he's, he can stay attached. Right. Like, he doesn't have the body power where he's just going to dominate, but he Competes and he does his best to stay attached. And so that, that's something that, that will help him at the next level
- [39:58]
Dave Hellman
in the same sort of draft. Range is a guy that's been talked about a lot since the combine. Sam Rausch, out of Stanford, not to the degree of Eli Stowers or Kenyan Sadiq, but had a very, very impressive combine to go along with a four year career at Stanford, where he just got better every single year he was there, culminating with a 49 catch, 585 yards or 545 yards senior season. My question for you, Dave, and I was laughing about this while I was watching Sam Roush. We always say don't scout the helmet. And we typically say it like, if, if a, if a good player's coming out of a program that has struggled recently, or like, if, you know, if a good player is coming out of a program where a bust just happened like two or three years ago, it's like, don't scout the helmet. Don't be lazy. These are not the same guys. What's the inverse of that? Like, is it okay that I just implicitly trust that Sam Roush is going to work in the NFL because he's a tight end at Stanford?
- [41:00]
Dan Brugler
I mean, we could say the same thing about Eli Radan from Notre Dame here.
- [41:04]
Dave Hellman
We can. We'll talk about Eli Rad and. Yeah, and I feel the same way where I'm like, all right, if he was good enough to do this at Notre Dame, I just trust it's going to work.
- [41:12]
Dan Brugler
Yeah. Or, or Iowa, if they had a guy. Yeah. Like, there certainly. I, I think that there's, Whether you're talking about a wide receiver from Ohio State or. Yeah. Like, there are certain positions.
- [41:23]
Dave Hellman
This guy wears 86 at Stanford. Like, he wears Zach Ertz's number. Stanford has what, I mean, over the last decade, you're talking about Zach Ertz, Kobe Fleener, Austin Hooper, Dalton Schultz, Colby Parkinson. Like, and, and ironically, Roush is really the first, like, major tight end prospect coming out of Stanford since Parkinson probably. And I just, I, I didn't have to think that hard about it. I, I clipped him on and I was like, okay, I, I see him blocking, I see him doing Stanford tight end stuff. He's got some, you know, he's moving nice with the ball, he's getting up field. I just, I don't think I have about it beyond that.
- [42:01]
Dan Brugler
Yeah. And he's, he's got a cool backstory because he was born in Atlanta, but moved around a little bit and so he spent a good chunk in Malaysia and Jakarta and like he was a rugby player growing up. Like he played baseball and basketball and soccer, but rugby was kind of where he developed his toughness. And then he moved back to the States and that's where he started playing football for the first time. Never played until, until high school. He has a, you know, background. His dad was a defensive back at Duke and so like he's got a really interesting family background. But like he's related to Merlin Olsen, it's his great uncle I believe. And you know, Merlin olson was a 14 time Pro bowl defensive tackle. Was in Little House on the Prairie. Like just a crazy. Check out the beast.
- [42:53]
Dave Hellman
For all that I was gonna say this is, this is the beast in a nutshell. Right here.
- [42:57]
Dan Brugler
Here. Exactly. But I mean he, for a guy that is that size, which he was what, 66 even 267 pounds to have that size and to go out and test like he did with a 470 and the 40, 38 and a half inch broad 106 or 38 and a half inch vert, 106 broad 708, 3 cone, really impressive. And then what I, I love guys that, that compete, right. And Sam Roush at the Stanford pro day, he had a great three cone, 708. He thought no, I could do better. And he goes out and runs a 702 and says just for the heck of it, let's, let's shave a little bit of time off that three cone. Didn't get into sixes. But for a guy that's £267 to get down there at that number is awesome. Washiru is a little bit longer. That's, he's like unusually short armed. He has under 31 inch arms. So it's rare to have someone that size six six but have under 31 inch arms. And there's definitely times on tape where it shows in his blocking. But man, this guy is as physical as you could ask a tight end to be there. There's a lot to like about too many drops that, that's kind of part of his profile. So the drops, the short arms, those are the two main areas where it's like, it worries me a little bit but everything else is kind of like okay, I can work with this, this, this will translate. And so mid rounds I think a team's going to get a pretty good player.
- [44:27]
Dave Hellman
His arm length is in the first percentile among tight ends in recent years. So it's worth noting and I will say, like I said you see Stanford star tight end and you just assume good things. Probably not as dominant a blocker as I would have guessed when I went into it, but gets the job done for the most part. And I also found him to be, be like a twitchy athlete. You know, some of these guys, you can see the speed, but they've got to get ahead of steam going for it to show. I didn't feel like that was the case with Sam Roush. Like I thought his short area quickness was pretty impressive for a guy his size.
- [45:05]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, that. Without a doubt. And whether that means getting open on, you know, there's a lot of underneath targets in that offense. I, I did wish he, we, we saw more red zone from him because as much as he could get open underneath, he just, the, the red zone targets just weren't there. And you know that, that's part of why his touchdown total was so low. Part of was that offense as a whole. But I, I do wish we saw more red zone targets on his tape.
- [45:36]
Dave Hellman
Real quickly. Let's, I mean, let's do the other tight end. You guy. We mentioned Eli Rad and he's got a similar grade for you, like high high day three type of grade. I didn't, I did not see as much as Eli Reardon as I did of Sam Roush, but I still, I saw the hallmarks of a Notre Dame tight end. I watched him against Miami, I watched him deal with Reuben Bain pretty admirably for a tight end. And he seems to have good athleticism. I mean like, how, how big is the difference do you think between Sam Roush and Eli Raritan?
- [46:10]
Dan Brugler
Raritan's interesting man because he's like his career got off on a bad start because of knee injury. So like 20, 22, 20, 23 were both disrupted by that. But then the last two years he stayed healthy and he doesn't have a ton of production, but when he was targeted, he, he made plays. And so he's another guy that doesn't have the production that you want. But I, I mean when you really focus on his targets, you're like, all right, this is a really good player. And you know, he's, he' get six, six, six, six and an eighth, 245 pounds, ran a four, six, two in the 40 yard dash. And I think that definitely shows in, in the way he plays. His dad played. He, he, his dad blocked for Brady Quinn, so he kind of grew up in the Notre Dame.
- [46:59]
Dave Hellman
Oh my God, that makes me feel so old.
- [47:01]
Dan Brugler
Right? Jesus. His dad played For Tyrone Willingham and Charlie Weiss back in like 0405 range and the cat. So Raritan was kind of born into the whole ir and I mean, he, he did some nice things, but, you know, like, didn't even have, didn't have a touchdown this past year. You know, it didn't have the impact that I think a lot of people thought he could. So it's just, what am I doing? Am I going to trust what another one of these grade to the Flashes guys? Am I, am I trusting what the traits say and trusting what these flashes say? Or should I buy into, you know, the, the injury history early and then the lack of impact overall? He's, he's a tough one to figure out because. And he's still figuring some things out. It's not like he's a polished prospect by any means, so he's still figuring things out, but especially as a blocker because he's so tall that I think that that upright posture works against him. His hands wander a little bit, they're a little bit inconsistent, but he can still, he has the movements, he can reach, he can cut off. But you, I think you really like him as a, as a pass catcher, how fluid he is. He needs to get better as a route runner. But I, I do think that it's the, the foundation is there for him to be a really good receiver at the NFL level. So, yeah, man, I'm, I'm really intrigued by Raritan and I think teams are too. It's just. How early do you draft a tight end with this type of profile?
- [48:30]
Dave Hellman
I'm just not going to lose a lot of sleep about drafting a guy out of Stanford or Notre Dame I like. And you know what? That'll probably bite me in the ass. Ass at some point. But over time, I think that philosophy proves true. One more guy I wanted to hit before we take our second break. And this is why I go to you and admire you. Cause you, you mentioned to me and I've. I've heard of this guy, but you mentioned him as somebody you wanted to highlight specifically. And that would be Will K out of Ohio State.
- [49:00]
Dan Brugler
Who.
- [49:00]
Dave Hellman
I mean, the, the profile. I totally get it. Six five and a half, 264 for the Buckeyes. Ran a 47440 with a 36 inch vertical. So very impressive athleticism for a guy his size. My thing is, Dane, you've got a nice grade on this guy. Yeah, he was like tight end three on an offense that already didn't have room for Max Claire. Like I'm trying to watch Will K and get an idea of who the hell he is. And there's just, there's too much going on. I'm watching Jeremiah Smith and Carnell Tate doing their thing. Max Claire's moving all over formation. Like, you gotta watch a lot of Ohio State tape in order to assess a guy who caught 15 pass passes. And look, I mean, you've probably gone back and watched Ohio Bobcats tape because that's where he transferred in from.
- [49:52]
Dan Brugler
Y.
- [49:52]
Dave Hellman
See that, that is, that's why people come to you. I have not watched Will Krick at Ohio University. So please, for a guy with such a limited resume this past season at Ohio State, why are you so high up on him?
- [50:06]
Dan Brugler
Well, I would push back a little bit and say he played a lot. It was just as a blocker, you
- [50:12]
Dave Hellman
know, like he is a. He is. He's got a lot of attitude and I admire his aggressiveness for sure.
- [50:19]
Dan Brugler
That Michigan tape. Throwing that Michigan tape and watching him block, it's like, all right, I sign me up for this guy and look, Ohio State, they operated out of a multi tight end set at like the second highest rate in all of college football last year.
- [50:33]
Dave Hellman
No, real quick. That, that's what, that's what pissed me off is Claire's wearing 86 and K's wearing 89. And then there's an 85 and an 82 and they're all motioning around and trying to figure out who's. Who is a massive pain in the ass. And you can usually find KCK because he's bulldozing some guy at the second level.
- [50:53]
Dan Brugler
That's it. And he, he was probably the most underrated part of the Buckeyes national title winning team in 2024. Just because he, you don't, you don't notice him out there all that much because he's just, he's doing his job. He's not a guy that sees a lot of targets. He had only what I think 8 in 2024 and then 15 this past year. They started to try to get him a little more involved. He had a couple touchdowns, but his strength is, you know, we, there are, there are a lot of teams, they're gonna be looking for that wide tight end, that traditional guy. You can line up in line and you want him to run routes, catch passes. He can do it.
- [51:32]
Farnoosh Tarabi
It.
- [51:32]
Dan Brugler
But more importantly, you want him to block and you want to be reliable as a blocker. And that's what this guy does. He's another former lacrosse player who, he balances technique with violence, with competitive edge. And it shows mostly in his blocking. And so I. Catching the ball is fun. It's the sexy part of the position. But teams want guys that will block. And when we're talking about early day three, the guys that are going to be blockers, that's who the guys are going to go. That's what the teams are going to put value on, more so than maybe the guys that are receivers only. And so that's why Kags, Merrick, and, you know, maybe, you know, Roush will go and, you know, we'll see about Bor kker from Texas A and M, couple these other guys. Yeah, these guys are more of your traditional wide tight ends who will get after it as blockers. And then if you want them to leak out and go run a route, they can do that and they, you know, not going to let you down. He had, you know, he didn't have a drop at Ohio State, Kazmark. So, like, when he was targeted, he made the most of it. But his value is as. As a blocker in line.
- [52:47]
Dave Hellman
And I.
- [52:48]
Dan Brugler
That's what's going to get him drafted early day three.
- [52:50]
Dave Hellman
I'm not trying to hate. He was targeted 20. He was targeted 23 times at Ohio State. So, I mean, it's not a huge. I mean, when you're right, you're right. You know what, though? It's a good reminder because that's. That's what I'm looking for. I want the tight end who can block. So I should care less that he only had 15 catches. It's just like I said, there's. There's a lot of stuff going on on that offense and a lot of eye candy. And like, sticking with Will Kacmer can be a challenge when you're watching it, but, like, I mean, they trust him to go one on one with defensive ends. He can, like, he'll pancake a defensive lineman, which gets my attention immediately. And like I said, you can find half a dozen clips of him chirping at the guy whose ass he just kicked, too, which just gets me even more excited.
- [53:36]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, hard nose blocker. He will bury guys, like I said, throw on that Michigan tape and you can see him do it repeatedly. Yeah, he's. He's a fun player that I, I think Will, a lot of teams are going to look at that and you, you know, we mentioned the. The Jackson Hawes effect. That's going to appeal to or it's going to help a player like Kazmark.
- [53:56]
Dave Hellman
We got PLENTY MORE DAY 3 Tight ends to go through. We're going to take one more break before we do it.
- [54:03]
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Dave Hellman
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- [55:53]
Dave Hellman
All right, Dana, are you ready for another draft?
- [55:55]
Dan Brugler
Crush who we got?
- [55:57]
Dave Hellman
I'm stealing him from you. I'm just, I'm getting hip to what you already knew because you've brought this guy up a few times during the draft process. I think he first popped up on my radar for Shrine bowl purposes. Okay, but you've, you've mentioned Jack Injuries out of Texas a few times and I sat down with Jack Injuries tape on Monday night and again I got really, really excited. 65 Guy 2 45. Had 91 catches for a thousand yards across two years at Cal and then goes to Texas again. A very like a Pedestrian stat line, which we don't care about for college tight ends. But again, I think when you think about Texas a playoff contender two years ago and Arch Manning being there, you think of the high flying elements of their offense and settling in and watching Jack injuries, I just, I was very impressed by how consistent I thought he was.
- [56:55]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, a little curious that his production was what it was because you know, last year 2024 for Texas, Gunner Helm had like 60 catches in that offense and I know the quarterback was different and with, you know, Arch Manning you've got a year starter but that's where I thought, okay, you bring in a guy like injuries, a talent like this, he could really eat up a lot of targets because of just the open underneath windows and looking to get the ball out of the quarterback's hands. It just didn't play out that way. I think it will be. It's kind of interesting that he probably, you know, he caught passes from the back to back number one overall picks the last two years with Mendoza Cal and then assuming it'll be Arch in first overall in 2027 draft, just sneak
- [57:43]
Dave Hellman
in in on the back end of a tight end show. I see you.
- [57:45]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, he's a versatile left tight end. You know, he's really quick with the way he gets into his routes. He works himself open, average size, average strength. Like that'll show, definitely show like when he's blocking but you know he can pull, he can do these different things. So like there's nothing dominant about him physically, but I think he's just a, like kind of like you said, solid all the way around, confident hands, catcher. I, to me he's gonna go the gun. Helm went like I think right around pick 120 and I think injuries probably somewhere right around there. I, I think if you and I, I, I have when talking to scouts about injuries, I always kind of ask, okay, helm or injuries. And it's kind of split which you know, who teams would prefer. And so I kind of expect them to go in a similar range.
- [58:37]
Dave Hellman
So this is what I liked about injuries and I'll, I'll bring it back to what I said about Max Claire. Go watch a couple games of a guy and like Matt, Max Claire is a really good player and it's not just Max Claire, it's a lot of tight ends. Like you'll see a guy motion across and go out into the flat and, and chip the, you know, the end and like he'll just, he'll just put a hand on him or he'll insert into the C gap and he'll overrun the block or he'll insert into the C gap and he'll just sort of, you know, push the guy and like he got to him but not as great as you would prefer. Every fricking time Texas asked Jack Injuries to do that, he squared up on the guy and mashed him. And like, I mean I know August was an eternity ago, but he was doing that to Arvell Reese and Sunny Styles like across that game where like he's, you know, not like decle Sonny Styles but squaring up on him, getting him out of the hole and springing a run because of it. And he did that consistently across like every snap I watched. And on top of that I just, he's, he's a smooth athlete. Like yeah, I think he could do than what his stat line suggests he did. And so I just, I thought there was a lot to like. Like I was watching him and I was like if Dane's telling me I can draft this guy in the fourth round, I'm signing up for it big time.
- [59:54]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, I think, I think of that Vanderbilt game like that where him as a perimeter blocker really showed and kind of showed his strengths as a player and he, he's got an interesting background because he, he's a walk on. Like he was actually a silent commit to Harvard at one point and then he got duty at Cal and he took it. He's preferred walk on. Eventually earned a scholarship and then after Mendoza left for Indiana that's when injuries jumped into the portal himself and found a home at Texas. But he's, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't a football player growing up. It was kind of an acquired taste for him once he got to high school and he was actually a defensive end his first year and then he moved to tight end. So yeah, a really interesting player who is still getting better and he's going to be probably in that fourth round.
- [60:45]
Dave Hellman
I think a lot of the stuff we're saying applies to a guy we mentioned earlier the, at the rival school over at Texas A and M. We've talked about Nate Boer Kirker before. Yeah, I, I see them as pretty similar players. I think I like injuries more as a blocker. Am I off base for thinking that they're pretty similar players? What do you think the biggest difference is?
- [61:09]
Dan Brugler
Interesting. I, I guess I hadn't confused compared those two guys apples to apples. I, I think with Boerkerker, he's, he's tougher because he's older like he's been around for a while. He's gonna be a 25 year old NFL rookie.
- [61:24]
Dave Hellman
He was four seasons at, yeah, four seasons at Nebraska before he transferred to A and M. So he has been in college for a minute.
- [61:30]
Dan Brugler
Couldn't get on the field there and it was kind of like a. All right, well, why, you know, why couldn't he get on the field at Nebraska, goes to A and M. And you know, he did a nice job. I mean he, whatever he was asked to do, whether as a blocker, as a pass catcher, I thought he was a nice part of that offense. Showed good hands, really high percentage of those contested windows. He came away with those. Did a nice job being available to the quarterback, so understanding when he's hot, understanding when you know that pocket's breaking down and he needs to look back to the quarterback and just really helping him out. I thought as a blocker he, he did a nice job with kind of rolling his hips for a taller guy. Rolling his hips into contact and driving his feet. That's something that, you know, and straining through the, through the echo of the whistle. I think that's something that'll translate well. So I think they're both, they, they need refinement as blockers. But I, I was pleasantly surprised with Borkirker, how reliable he was with his leverage for a, a taller blocker, the way he was able to generate some of the power from his um. I think that he, to me, Borker gives you like a little more versatility in terms of he. You can put him detached, you can make him, put him in a slot. You could do, I think a little more things with him where with injuries, I guess I want him more on the move, I want him more as a pass catcher. But yeah, I think that, you know, they're both kind of in that same range for a reason.
- [63:07]
Dave Hellman
I thought Boerkerker did a hell of a job against Dylan Stewart, who we will be talking about a lot. We will be talking about a lot lot next year, if I had to guess.
- [63:16]
Dan Brugler
Yes, no, no question.
- [63:19]
Dave Hellman
Okay. I, I want your take on this guy who I, I had a fun time watching, but I don't really know what to do with him, if I'm being honest. Okay, give me your thoughts on old Mrs. Daquan Wright.
- [63:34]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, I struggle with Wright because man, he's, he's a fun player. Virginia Tech transfer at Ole Miss. He give him points for toughness. He injured his right shoulder in, I believe it was a season opener and he played through it the entire year. It's something that has kept him from working out during the pre draft process, which is a, a bummer not having any verified testing on, on Daquan Wright. But you know, he's, he made some big plays for that Ole Miss offense throughout the year. And it's like, okay, the more you watch him, the more you're like, o. He can kind of create his own separation at the top of routes. Okay. He, he, he put as many splash plays on tape as almost any tight end in this class. And some of it was manufactured. Absolutely. But some of it he did create on his own. And the way he can catch the ball cleanly, he was number two in the FBS among all tight ends in yards per catch. So there was some, there's some big plays that he created on his tape this year. So yeah, I think he's a guy that is ideally he's your tight end three to start. And then it's like, okay, can he do enough to become my tight end? Two, is he enough of a blocker or does he give us enough of an impact as a pass catcher where we can trust him in that role? That'll be the big question for him. But it's just about because again, once we get to day three, it's all about trust with these tight ends. And where do we trust him fitting in our offense? Do we trust him enough as a, as a blocker? Do we trust him enough as, okay, can you be. Make enough of an impact where we're going to line you up as on a passing route and you're going to be where you need to be and be able to help convert third downs. That's where it gets tricky with these day three tight ends because not every. The answer is going to be different from team to team. And so Daquan Wright, I think will be higher for. And when I say higher, I mean like fourth, fifth round for some teams, but then maybe seventh round for other teams. And that's true with, you know, Joe Royer from Cincinnati or Marlon Klein from Michigan with, for a lot of these guys. So I think that that, that is where the tight end position gets tricky in terms of projecting these guys because the projections are different from team to team, scheme to scheme.
- [65:58]
Dave Hellman
I'm struggling to articulate this, but see if you follow me.
- [66:02]
Dan Brugler
Okay.
- [66:02]
Dave Hellman
It's not really fair because, like, Daquan Wright is not significantly smaller than a lot of the guys we've talked about. Like, he's 6, 4, 2, 46, which is, it's not the biggest, but it fits just fine. But when I watch Daquan Wright, like when he's in line, I'm, I just, I'm like, ah, he's, I, he's too small to be in there with all of those big bodies. And then when he goes out wide, I'm like, ah, he's a little too big and sluggish to be out there in all of that space too. Like, you know, like he's not Eli Stowers who fits out there just very, very perfectly. Having said that, if you get the ball in his hands, he is impressively fast and a real pain in the ass to bring down. Like, if you get the ball to him, he is a weapon. Clearly, based on what he did for Ole Miss. I liked watching him play and, and like he's not a bad blocker either. Like you said, the fact that he did everything he did with the shoulder injury is incredibly impressive. I certainly think he's a willing blocker, but I was just watching him and I was like, I don't 100% know what to do with you and I'm sure some NFL team does, but it, it frustrated me while I was watching him play.
- [67:20]
Dan Brugler
I agree and I, he's. Because you're right that the splash plays are there. He had 12 catches of 20 plus yards this year. Well, only three college tight ends can say that. And so he was able to make some of those big plays and like, and some of those were manufactured where you get him in a little bit of a Runway, whether it was a, you know, a pick route where you know he's coming out as a, on a slant or on a shallow cross or whatever it is. So he's very, still very much developing technically and just being. Learning how to be more efficient as a route runner as a blocker. But he flashes that athletic pass catching talent. Then you know, it's you, you start to wonder, okay, how much upside is there where, you know, we can make this part of our offense? So like I said, I, I think you draft him as your third tight end, hoping he could become your second second and at some point help just give a extra boost to your offense.
- [68:18]
Dave Hellman
Talked about Kazmark and Boer Kirker as traditional wise. Another guy I wanted to hit on in that vein, maybe with a lower grade would be, would be Khalil Dinkins out of Penn State, the son of Darnell Dinkins. Again, if you want to feel old, eight year pro Darnell Dinkins, who I think retired in like 09. That one doesn't make me feel as old as some other ones but, but definitely worth playing pointing out.
- [68:45]
Dan Brugler
Former super bowl winning tight end with the Saints.
- [68:48]
Dave Hellman
That's right.
- [68:49]
Dan Brugler
Yeah. And Dinkins, you talk about lack of production. In five years at Penn State he had like 37 total catches. So I was a kind of a pleasant surprise when I saw him on the combine list as an, as an invited guy which, you know, hey, I'm, I'm all for, you know, give these guys chances. He is somewhat that as a blocker he got better and better, better every single year because in high school he was. He's like a wildcat quarterback and you know, caught the ball but his blocking is something that had really had to develop and I think he was able to do that. You know, he explodes through his hips, you know, there's strength in his hands. He likes to finish. So the pass catching tape, yeah, it's, it's underwhelming. It's not going to wow you. Doesn't have a body of work to get you excited. But I think when we're talking about these late round, if you're looking for a guy that has the promise to be something and to grow into something, I, yeah, I can see why teams would be a little excited about Dinkins and what he could be for you on the practice squad and then maybe on a, you know, final 53.
- [69:59]
Dave Hellman
So in your mind more of a developmental prospect than some of these other guys we've been talking about over the last 15 or so minutes.
- [70:08]
Dan Brugler
Yeah. And like, look, if he shows out in camp and is able to earn a tight end three job and you know, good, I mean, that'd be awesome. I just think it's going to take a little bit of time for him to kind of get there, but I, there's promise there, no doubt. Like he, I know he's a guy that's been on a couple 30 visits for teams as they try to figure him out more. It's just, I think teams want to know how much more can you give us as a, as a pass catcher? You know, obviously we saw what Tyler Warren did in that pass Penn state offense in 2024 and no one expected that to happen for Dinkins in 2025. But it's still like, okay, well why, why didn't you give us a little bit more? And I, we did this with Delp and Bowers and so it can be a little bit unfair just with the structure of the offense and, and I understand game plans change and the way that, you know, you want to get. Move the ball around. But still you want a little bit more body of work as a pass catcher if you're going to be talking about DraftKings a tight end.
- [71:07]
Dave Hellman
I mean, going back to Del, I, I will overlook some things if there's something on your tape that gets me excited. The way Del blocking got me excited. Not to say, like, not to say it was all bad, but inconsistency as a blocker and then the lack of a, like, of a real role on offense, I was, I wasn't as enthused. Not to say it was bad, but like, I'm not surprised to hear you say you view him as more of a developer developmental guy.
- [71:34]
Dan Brugler
I mean there. I don't think he saw a single target over 20 yards. So like, it's not even like he, he's not, he doesn't have bad speed.
- [71:41]
Dave Hellman
His speed's a lot of, it's a lot of, it's a lot of flare outs to the flat and then trying to get yak, which, I mean that's what a lot of college tight ends do. I get that.
- [71:50]
Dan Brugler
Yeah. For 49 career games played, he didn't reach 50 receiving yards in any of them. So it's just, you know, he wasn't used in that capacity and that's part of why, you know, he's a late rounder.
- [72:02]
Dave Hellman
Pfa, you listed this guy in your Joker F category when we were planning this show out and I'm interested to dive into that a little bit more because I gotta tell you, another draft crush. Because I think I texted you this morning and told you I had like six because there are so many fun tight ends.
- [72:21]
Dan Brugler
Very easy. Yeah.
- [72:23]
Dave Hellman
D. Bentley out of Utah is a dog dude.
- [72:28]
Dan Brugler
And like, I mean, you're younger than you, but he's awesome.
- [72:31]
Dave Hellman
Oh, that hurts. That. Wait, how old is he?
- [72:34]
Dan Brugler
He's not, he's. He's 25. But I mean you're 26, right? So, yeah, let's go with that.
- [72:41]
Dave Hellman
Yeah, yeah. Ignore all the gray hair under my hat.
- [72:45]
Dan Brugler
He, he. I agree with you. He's awesome. Like he's just a. And I, I don't think anybody saw it coming necessarily. It's not like he was like, oh, he's next up in the pipeline. He's going to be awesome this year. You know, like a juco guy, you know, he did.
- [73:00]
Dave Hellman
He popped out of freaking nowhere. He had three catches over his first two seasons at Utah.
- [73:06]
Dan Brugler
Go back even further. He had one catch in all of high school. One. And it's, it's it's, it's fascinating when you look up his huddle page because his huddle highlight is one play and because he, he was literally, he was 5, 8, 140 pounds as a sophomore and junior, so barely played. And then he hits his growth spurt before senior year becomes this six four, 250 pound tight end for a senior year. And he's going to go have this breakout season, senior year. First the season opener, first play of the season opener. 40 yard bomb, catches it, broken tibia, fibula done. And so you know, he was a, that totally sidetracked things. You know, did you know the, the mission. And so he was out of after high school, he, you know, did the mission. So he was out of sports completely for a couple years, comes back and he decides, hey, I'm not done with football. So it goes to snow college, did enough there for a year, is able to go to Utah. And the end, the last two years he was barely a blip on the radar. Even though he did start as a junior, he just, he wasn't a big part of the passing offense. And so this past year was just a real, just encouraging bump for a guy that I don't think a lot of us saw coming. But he, he's really efficient. I love tight ends that are really efficient after the catch. And we watch Bentley when he is receiving the ball, he's able that you see the fluidity in the way he moves. But he also has that drop step at the catch. So it's not like, okay, catch, drop step move. He's doing his drop step as he catches the ball. So it just accelerates things further so he's able to get a head start on the yak on you know, those hidden yards and that, that's a big part of his game. Natural hands. Catcher didn't have a single drop in 2025. So man, there, there's a lot to like about Bentley that you know, if, if we're watching the draft on day three and he comes off the board early round four, I wouldn't be shocked. Cause there's, there's a lot to like about this guy.
- [75:15]
Dave Hellman
I love when my notes line up with something that you bring up because when you watch him like you watch a lot of these tight ends, they're good athletes, but when you see a guy do an in cut or try to do like a pivot route, you're like, yeah, you're, you're 66250. It's fine if you look a little stiff or slow doing this that is, that's physics. But when you watch Dallin Bentley do this stuff, six four, two, 53. Yeah, he looks wide receiver esque when he makes cuts and turns back to the quarterback and then pivots and tries to get up field like, there's no wasted movement. Everything looks smooth and fast and explosive. And it's like again, like you watch 20 of these guys in a row, it's kind of eye popping when you turn that on and see the difference and you're like, oh, this, this guy's got a little bit of extra juice than a lot of the guys we're talking about. And I mean, I don't care if he's 28, like at T at tight end, you can still get some useful play out of this guy. Like I'm, I don't give a shit. And, and the only. I bring it up too. I don't know if you would want to play him in line all the time, but when I was watching him block like, he is getting movement, he's driving guys off the ball, he's sealing alleyways. Like, I thought he was a plus blocker for how big of a piece of the passing offense he was. Like, I don't think he's a, he's not a receiving tight end that you just hope to get by with as a blocker. At least I don't, I didn't think so.
- [76:40]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, I think that's fair. I, I, he's, he's aggressive, but he's undisciplined as a blocker. That's kind of how I would describe him.
- [76:47]
Dave Hellman
I'm down to coach discipline. If you are like aggressive and willing, I'm, that's fine with me.
- [76:53]
Dan Brugler
Well, and I think he would have had, I don't know, 25 more catches if his quarterback was accurate like he was. He was a big part of what they were doing at Utah this past year. And he's another guy where I love guys that compete. Right. So, yeah, at the combine, he 642-53462 in the 40, which is awesome. And 35 vert, 910 broad. 442 short shuttle. At the pro day, he decides 462 is not good enough. I'm going to run again. Okay. Gets to 459. So he gets under, gets into the four fives, which is awesome. Improves his short shuttle to 418. Also does a three cone. He's at seven flat for a guy that was, was 253. So pretty good testing. That matches up with what you see on film.
- [77:41]
Dave Hellman
All right, let's do the last. We'll move a little quickly so we don't do a 90 minute tight ends preview on building the beast as much
- [77:48]
Dan Brugler
as we still won't hit everybody.
- [77:49]
Dave Hellman
No, exactly. Okay. I do want to talk about a couple more like hback type guys.
- [77:55]
Dan Brugler
Okay.
- [77:56]
Dave Hellman
You gave me, you gave me two for homework and I mean one of them is your favorite in the world. So let's start with Riley no Noakowski. And like I watched plenty of Indiana football this year. I was well familiar with him. But sitting down and just watching number 37 on Indiana for a while, I, I get why you like him so much. I, I completely understand it.
- [78:20]
Dan Brugler
He's just so useful. I mean it's, he's so versatile with that RPO heavy scheme. Like whether he was in line, backfield, slot, whatever. That unsung hero of the Hoosier Hoosiers national championship run. Because again, you can't watch Fernando Mendoza in that offense without noticing number 37. And you know, just what he was doing out there, the way he was impacting the game. Wisconsin transfer, he was a, a former walk on who has, you know, and he was a linebacker. When he got there, they moved him to fullback. They trying to find a spot for him in Wisconsin and they just, they, they're like, we love this kid. He his butt off, does everything we ask. We just, you know, we, we can't find the right spot for him. And then he finally kind of breaks through his final year at Wisconsin. He was a team captain. He decides six year, okay, change of scenery, go to Indiana. And man, he was, he was as big of pickup as some of those other transfers they brought in. Just as a blocker, as a short yardage receiver, he just, he catches everything. He's very stout in his lower half and so he can set an edge, he can hard halt power, he can seal run lanes. He's really juiced up as a lead blocker. He can uproot defenders on drive blocks. So yeah, Riley Nowakowski is just, he's can do a lot of things for your offense and that's that name of the game is versatility on day three with these guys. And that, that's, that's what he offers.
- [79:56]
Dave Hellman
I think there's a theme for it. But watching these guys, like, I was just drawn to the guys who play with attitude. And like you watch Riley Nowakowski play, he sticks on his block for the entirety of the snap. Like and, and he's usually still wrestling with the guy after the whistle and just banging heads with people and like doesn't let himself off of guys. I, I mentioned this before, but again, so many times you'll see a tight end like you're gonna block and then break out into your route and a lot of these guys just sort of give the end like a side hug. Just sort of like, oh, hello. Like they'll like le and then break out into their route. It's very uninspiring. Riley Nowakowski is going to smash you. Like he is going to get his lick in before he gets out into his route. And stuff like that just resonates with me where I'm like, all right, you, you're playing with some attitude. You, you are willing and able to make yourself useful in addition to being a nice receiver. I just, he's, he's a fun guy to watch.
- [80:59]
Dan Brugler
Yeah. He's fundamentally sound. He's tenacious. He dies slowly on his blocks. Like he, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. To like what you're saying. He stays attached as long as he can and usually long enough. They gave him carries. He had two touchdowns this year on like fullback runs, short yardage. So whether you use him as a utility h back, a fullback, tight end, whatever, he's just, he can execute with whatever you ask him to do. And yeah, I mean that, that's going to have some type of use at the next level.
- [81:31]
Dave Hellman
Real quickly, I just, I wanted to ask, ask you. I mean clearly you're, you're not concerned about his Overall profile. I mean 6, 2, 2, 50. Like I, I don't know if he's going downfield for you very often in an NFL offense. I mean, does that concern you at all?
- [81:48]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, I mean, and it took till his sixth year until he was actually, you know, part of an offense that would give him targets like, like, I don't think his route pacing is going to fool anybody. And like full coverages. Yeah, I, I think that, you know, there's plenty of things about his. Not plenty, but there are parts of his pass catching profile that give you some pause. But at the same time, I don't think you're drafting him to be a central part of your offense. You know, it's, it's going to be really how Indiana used him this past year. So someone will find a use for that as, as your backup tight end and a guy that when he gets on the field, you know exactly what you're getting. And like another thing is too, and when you get to These day three tight ends trust and just understanding that the guy you're getting day in, day out, like right now, Kowski just checks those boxes. So it doesn't matter if he sees, you know, 40 snaps in a game or two snaps in a game, he's going to be the same guy every single day of the week. Preparation, all of that. And there, there's value in that. So the usefulness, it's not just about what you see on the field. It's about the intangibles and what happens between games as well.
- [83:00]
Dave Hellman
Another hback sort of tight end we wanted to highlight that would be Alabama's Josh Cuevas, which here's my analogy for cueva stain. I, I watched him before I watched Noah Kowski, okay. And I, I liked what I saw and I like, he's a useful blocker. He can do some things for you as a receiver. And I thought about like when you go to buy a car and like you're just like, I just want the bare bones. Like, I don't need the gps, I don't need the, the touch of screen console. I don't need the auto start. I don't need that. I just need a car that's going to get me to work and that's fine. And then you watch Noah Kowski and you're like, oh, but the touchscreen is really cool and like the auto start is really cool. Like, I don't know, I, I, I think I might want the bells to be worth it. Yeah, like that's, that's kind of how I felt about it. I thought Josh Cuevas a really useful player, but I think I'd probably rather draft Nowakowski earlier if it were up to me.
- [84:00]
Dan Brugler
Right. And, and I think that's, yeah, that matches up with kind of where I'm at. Like I Quavis will probably be in that six round range r nowi round earlier kind of kind of deal. Yeah, Quas, yeah, he's, he's got his limitations, but I think he's tough. He's physical. You know, he's, he's got a feel for working zones as a pass catcher. Kind of reliable, I guess. Like, I don't, there's nothing a lot of like impact potential. He's just well rounded. He commits to whatever you ask him to do. And so in the right situation, he's going to have value as that f tight end, that fullback. It's just I, impact potential is not really what he's going to bring to the table.
- [84:47]
Dave Hellman
One last guy, no. Two More guys I wanted to hit. I'll just, I'll. In the sake of transparency, these were the guys I didn't get to. I could not get my hands on RJ Maryland tape in time for the show. But RJ Maryland, you run a four five one at the combine. That kind of got him on people's radar. And selfishly, he's the son of former Cowboys number one overall pick Russell Maryland, which is interesting to me. So I definitely want to talk about him at least briefly.
- [85:18]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, he got his dad's size, but definitely the speed came from somewhere else. Right?
- [85:23]
Dave Hellman
I was gonna say not, not the same positions at all for sure.
- [85:27]
Dan Brugler
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Cause rj, when you think about, you know, like a defensive tackle son, you think, oh, he must be a big wide tight end. Well, no, I mean he's, he's a guy that's going to be, you know, screaming down the seam and working down the field. He, he's got speed. You know, he had, he had his mile per hour at the combine, was faster than Carnell Tate and a lot of receivers. So he has speed. Had the knee injury that really was wiped out. Like he go back to like 2023. He was. Seemed like on an upward trajectory and then 2024 had the right knee injury. This past year at SMU kind of looked the same. Kind of got back to where he was, but not fully. And so I, part of his profile is going to be how, how much do you feel like he, he has the, the upside of what he showed earlier in his career. Can he get back from fully to that pre injury form? Because if he can, you might have a mismatch weapon here with the way that he can impact the, the, the, the game as a, as a pass catcher down the seam. So I, I'm intrigued by Maryland, but I don't think he's a, he's not like a lock draft pick because of, you know, some, you know, he's like I said, limited as a blocker. You worry about just can you get back to that full, that full form that you showed before the injury. So there, there's a lot to like about him, but I don't know that it's necessarily going to be a slim slam dunk draft pick and we'd be
- [86:55]
Dave Hellman
remiss if we didn't wrap this up with a guy who wasn't even invited to the combine. Your man, Carson Ryan out of byu. Let's, let's finish it up with a
- [87:05]
Dan Brugler
Dane special highest graded non combine tight end this year. Carson Ryan was at Utah, or was that originally at ucla. Goes to Utah and really wanted more targets with. Which is ironic because Dallin Bentley stayed and got the more targets. Ryan transferred to get his targets. Goes to obviously Utah's arch nemesis and byu. And he had a good year. He's a little stiff and you see that at the top of routes and after the catch. But he's got good, decent straight line speed. He catches the ball well. He's another guy that is just. He. He does whatever's asked of him, you know, and so he's urgent, but he's controlled. He's got a little bit of creativity to him as a blocker. He's both quick and physical. And so there's just a lot to like about him as a day three type of tight end. And so I think he's. He's got the. The makeup of somebody that's going to stick. And, you know, I think that's. He's got a lot of useful qualities, so I think that's going to help him.
- [88:13]
Dave Hellman
All right, we went long. I think this is a position that requ not only deserves, it requires going long. I have no qualms about it.
- [88:22]
Dan Brugler
I hated not like Marlon Klein winning into from Michigan and Joe Royer from Cincinnati. You know, it's just, it's too. This position is so deep this year. It's. It's hard to get to everybody because there's literally, I think 25 that I gave a draftable grade on and then like another five that are fringe guys. So there's just, there's so many, many names that, you know, it's. It'll be really interesting to see how the order they actually come off the board when we get to draft weekend.
- [88:52]
Dave Hellman
I was going to say, I mean, we did our best and we still probably left 12 guys off. You know, if, yeah, if you're a Marlin Klein fan, Michael Trigg out of Baylor is a guy that gets a lot of talk. D.J. rogers from TCU. But guess what? In a couple of weeks, you can read more than you've ever wanted to know about all of them in the Beast. So until then, we'll. We'll be back next week. We're going to keep doing this. We're going to keep diving into the positions. But Dane, this was a lot of fun. Can't wait to do it again soon. And we'll talk to you all next time.
- [89:36]
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Dave Hellman
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