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The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
Building the Beast: Why defensive backs are the crown jewel of the 2026 NFL Draft class
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- [00:00]
A
Why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster Nibbles in our yard for me? Because I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could trust him to bury my sweet Nibbles after his untimely end. Nibbles gone too soon. May he scurry in peace.
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B
Hey, sorry about your pet, but I just wire stuff.
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A
Nibbles would have loved you like a brother.
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B
Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years, Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home projects@angie.com
- [00:31]
A
when you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Paramas informacion en Espanol visit cologuard pun.com/final forever. Welcome to an allnew episode of Building the Beast. I am your host Dave Hellman and we are in the final countdown a week from right now. Dane Brugler's annual draft guide, the Beast, the namesake of this podcast, will be available for download. You can get your hands on it starting next Wednesday, April 8th. We're finally there y'.
- [02:26]
B
All.
- [02:26]
A
I think I can speak for Dane confidently say, lot of hard work and effort going into this. I'm sure he is excited for y' all to get your hands on it. Until then though, we've got a really great episode for y'.
- [02:38]
B
All.
- [02:38]
A
We're going to continue to take a deeper look at this 2026 draft class. We decided to combine two positions today. Just figured we'd knock out the entire secondary in one episode. Dana and I took a deep dive into a very fun safety class with a lot of really cool prospects at the top as well as the cornerback class. Very topical to be doing this show. Some news as it pertains to Tennessee cornerback Jad McCoy as well as Clemson's Avion Terrell. Covered all of that and took as best we could a very deep look at the corner and safety classes in this year's draft. Let's get right to it. Dane, right off the jump. I feel like I owe you an apology today, man. Yeah, because you are about to send in a draft guide with 400 reports. You could talk for 15 minutes about every single prospect that's going to get drafted later this month. And here I am about to ask you to condense two positions into one podcast. So if, if you find yourself frustrated about the time constraints, it's, it's all on me. I'm sorry.
- [03:55]
B
You know what? I, I feel less stressed this year than most years. Just, I think we're in a good spot. 400 reports are done. They're in this week. It's really about these final pro days. Jermaine McCoy. What are we doing? Tennessee's going on right now as we're recording. Indiana is tomorrow, obviously, Fernando Mendoza, not that no one expects him to test, but there are several Indiana athletes working out at the pro day that. Very eager to see those numbers. So not that it's going to change the rankings, all that, or anything in the profiles, but it's still just data points that, you know, I want to make sure we have. But, yeah, I feel like we're in a good spot. Pro day information for all those guys, including a couple thousand more. All, all the birth dates for four. All the, all 400 reports are going to be in there. So I know, I get a lot of questions about, hey, is this guy really 22 or is he 25? And it's all going to be in the draft guide, so, yeah, look, I can't wait for next week when it finally comes out. Next Wednesday Draft.
- [04:56]
A
Yeah, the, the guides out next week. It's being submitted later this week. The hay is most of the way in the barn. Hopefully you can find some time for, I don't know, a ribeye and a beer or whatever your celebratory meal of choice would be.
- [05:11]
B
Yeah, that's, we saved that for may. Cause, yeah, once. Cause once the guide comes out, then it's like a media blitz tour for three days, and then it's, there's so much work.
- [05:20]
A
You're, you know, you're allowed to do it. You're allowed to have two celebratory meals like treat yourself at the end of this week, and then we can have another one when the draft's over.
- [05:29]
B
All right, I'm gonna record that and send it to my wife, make sure she knows.
- [05:32]
A
Okay, Exactly. All right, so I, I, I intro it on the show, but we're combining cornerback and safety in today's episode just in the interest of getting through as many positions as we can before draft week gets here. So you, you teased it, Dane, Normally I would, I would start with cornerback on a normal day, but Tennessee is having their pro day right now and the long awaited potential workout of Jermod McCoy is potentially on deck. So full transparency. We're pushing Corner to later in the show just to see if we can get an Update on Jad McCoy before we put this podcast in the can. So I'm going to start with safety instead, which we've talked about it a lot over the course of the year. We talked about it with the loaded group that went to the Senior Bowl. A really exciting group of players. A very like, I hate to call it top heavy cause I think there's good players all throughout but just the, the top of this position is very, very excited with the first round guys and it really feels like there's a sweet spot on day two as well. But rather than me say that I'll throw it to you as we get into our safety preview. Can you just outline for me what you think of as the strength of this safety class, maybe what that sweet spot looks like and if you're a fan whose team might need a safety, what are, what are we eyeing here over the three days of this 2026 NFL Draft?
- [07:00]
B
It's not a super deep safety class, but the players that are going to be drafted are worth getting excited about. I think obviously Caleb Downs gets most of the attention at the top and in my opinion he should. He's the best player at the position this draft has to offer. A little curious that he chose not to test during the process. I don't think he's hiding from anything, just my own opinion, like watching him on tape. Show me the tape where he's slow, like it's not there. If you're, if you're telling me he's hiding from something, you're just, you're making stuff up. Because there's not tape where Caleb Downs looks like he's athletic, athletically deficient. He might not be a 43 guy, but if he ran a 40 yard dash tomorrow, I bet it'd probably be 4, 5, 2, something like that. Like he's above the line. And that's all I care about with Caleb Downs. Because the reason that you're drafting him as high as you are is because of what he brings to the field mentally and physically. Just the way he can tackle, the way that he can handle everything on the back end of a defense, get everyone in the right spots. The communication factor and I don't think it just gets. That doesn't get talked about enough. And you know, we've, we've talked about Caleb Downs a lot, this process, but for a safety show, I think it's worth bringing up again and a guy like Devin Weatherspoon and how much he meant to that Seahawks secondary, that's what Caleb Downs kind of brings to the back end of your defense because of the intelligence factor, getting everybody lined up, the communication that needs to be involved. He does all of that. And he will also make plays against the run in the past three defensive coordinators the last three years. And he was the centerpiece of all three of those defenses and it showed the minute he arrived on campus. So Caleb Downs, I think is the best this class has to offer at the position. And Dylan Theenaman from Oregon has kind of been the next guy. And then I'm a big fan of McNeil Warren from Toledo, always have been since we were talking about him in the fall. And he's also, I think, part of that first round conversation.
- [09:02]
A
So we've talked a lot about the first round guys and I'm going to try to do this the same way that we did tight ends, where let's get through the guys that we have discussed a lot. I don't, I don't really know how much there is left to say about Caleb Downs. I like you bringing that up. And I said this on a show with Robert and Derek last week where I do think it's worth saying that the people I have talked to on NFL staffs agree with your assessment. Cause I'm sure you're talking to similar people. He might be like a smaller safety, but the, the athleticism is not something that the NFL seems concerned about. Even if he didn't work out during this process, I think Caleb Downs is a perfectly acceptable athlete. And it's just going to be a question of, you know, with the mental makeup and what he brings to your defense. From a cerebral standpoint, how highly does that get him drafted? Because I, I, I do think it's fair to say he doesn't have like a unicorn type of profile, but I think we've laid it out pretty perfectly and now we just wait to see what the range looks like for Caleb Downs.
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B
And let's be honest, like he's, he's 208 pounds. Like he's not, like he's small, like
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A
he's definitely not small.
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B
Like he's, he's Troy Palomalu's size, you know, like he's, you know, six. He's right around 5:11. 5:11 and a half, 206, 208 pounds. That's his. That's what his playing weight is. Like. That's. It's not. It's not big. It's not above average in terms of size, but it's. I don't think it's definitely. It's definitely not small either.
- [10:34]
A
All right, let's play this game, and then we'll move on really quickly. We've laid out Caleb Downs as adequately as I think we can. When would you start to be surprised that he's still on the board? Or when would you potentially say, like, there's just no way he'll still be here at this pick? Like, what do you think that number is? Cause I do think it's completely plausible that he slides a little bit, even if people think of him as, like, a top five overall prospect. But, like, at a certain point, you gotta draw a line. For me, I would say it's somewhere around, like, pick 15 or 16. But what do you think?
- [11:10]
B
So you think even you get past 12 in Dallas?
- [11:14]
A
It depends on who else is there. Cause I know Dallas likes him, but, I mean, if the right player was there, maybe they would pick somebody over Caleb Downs. I. I think it's at least possible.
- [11:25]
B
Yeah, I think it's possible. He is definitely, I think, a wild card in the top. Top 15. He could go five to the Giants and wouldn't bat an eye. He could go 12 to the Cowboys. Wouldn't bat an eye. I don't think either of those two would be surprising. It just. It is hard because there's a lot of teams that just won't draft a safety that early, and it has nothing to do with that. He didn't test or it's. It just. They don't. Teams just don't draft safeties that early. You know, I think Bengals have traditionally been one of those teams, and I think the Bengals are a really interesting, you know, spot because they could obviously use a player like that on their team. But would they go against type? Usually they're not a team that does. You know, they've got very strict parameters by their draft history. And so I think there's a couple teams like that that I'm really interested to see. Would Caleb Downs get past, you know, a couple of those teams? And, you know, the. The Bengals at 10 are one of them. The Cowboys at 12 are one of them. But, yeah, I think he's going to go top 15. It's just a matter of. Of where. And like I said, he's a wild card. I don't I don't think like if he's still there at 12, I don't think that means he's falling. It's just. He was, it was always, it's always been this way, right? It's always been he's just a wild card. He's not going to be for everybody because that's some teams philosophy philosophically how they, how they view the position.
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A
So Dylan Theemann we've talked about as a guy who really improved his stock with a few fantastic combine, I'd say pretty firmly cements himself as a first round pick. But again with the safety position, maybe it's a little bit harder to gauge. I, I think that's a perfectly reasonable prediction. I did like talking about him as a player more so than just his combine workout. I did. I went back and watched a few games over after watching him during the season. And this is, it's a common thing with, with college safeties. I just, I want to see more because a lot of times like Oregon played him so far back a lot of the times and I wanted more films and more clips of him doing stuff up near the line of scrimmage, moving toward the quarterback and doing a lot of that fun stuff that you can do with versatile safeties. Not to say that he can't do it, but I, I found myself. Bored is a mean word, but I found myself just wanting more from his tape in terms of like not anything he was doing wrong, but just wanting him to get more opportunity.
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B
I mean I think that's, that's studying safeties, right?
- [13:58]
A
I mean it's, it, oh, it's the worst dude.
- [14:01]
B
It is. If you're not watching, you know, point of attack and if you're not watching the, the cutups where it's, it's going to be more of the plays that he's either making or not making. It could, it could be a little bit of a slog. And with him, yeah, they used him. He was a hybrid for Oregon with deep middle robber, a little nickel in there. And so I think there, there is a little bit of everything now you go back to the Purdue tape and a little more single high and being able to. Or being asked to play both sidelines, things like that. But he's, he's a productive post safety and even going into the combine he was a top 25 guy for me. And I think it just comes down to okay. I, you know, safety is one of those positions where I do like, I'm not going to ding you if you don't have enough production because of again, what you were asked to do. But if you have a lot of production, that's just another feather in your cap. And I think with, with the man. All right, last three years you have over 300 tackles, eight interceptions. Like you're, you're showing up consistently and it's, you did it at two different programs. He's also a guy that's like the makeup's off the charts. Like talking to somebody last week it was like if you told him that, you know, if you could get better by eating Japanese snapping beetles like there he'd be on Amazon and have them delivered to his health within an hour. Like, that's just how he's wired like that, that he wants to be the best. He's going to get everything he can out of his talent. And so I think that that's part of this too. With Caleb Downs and with thienaman guys that are just whatever you want them to do, they're going to do. They're very coachable and that's, that's only going to help them when it comes to the first round and as, as teams kind of stack their board.
- [15:50]
A
What is your idea of what Emmanuel McNeil Warren's role might look like, at least in the early days of his NFL career?
- [16:01]
B
Good question. I, because I do think that he can do a couple different things. Like, right, he's not scheme specific. He's not where he's only this like you watch him at Toledo, he's mostly like a boundary safety, you know, and they, they did ask him to play a little bit close to the line. They would rotate him where he would move to nickel. Especially when they did a lot of tempo, they would, they would ask him to maybe pull back and do the, do the deep half. So I think that like, there's not like a specific he has to play this role, has to play that role. But he is a little more of the, the size because he's sick. He's a legit six three and a half. He's a bigger guy so he can play closer to line of scrimmage. He can be a little bit versatile for you. So I'm, I, I don't want to box him in and say he's definitely this. I, I think he, he, because he has the way he could read the field, the way he can roam, the way he can float to the ball. I do think that he can play with a little bit of space and he can close that space quickly make plays. So I, I, I, I I like him as you know. I, I don't, I don't think he's boxed in, put it that way. I don't know. Did you see it differently than that?
- [17:14]
A
No, I think, I don't want to overreact, but watching Emanuel McNeil Warren over the last week or so, like, I'm not going to say the name of the guy in Seattle whose name we say too much, but like, I mean that, that's, I, I can, I can see the vision if you want, like a big nickel who. I think he's definitely got some work to do in coverage, but it's certainly not like this huge liability. And then my thing, dude, a. I mean, the stats are the stats. He's clearly got a knack for getting the football. Like, what was it, like eight or nine forced fumbles over the course of, of. Was it, was it last year?
- [17:54]
B
Nine over his career?
- [17:55]
A
Nine over his career? That's right.
- [17:57]
B
Eight. Eight over the last three years.
- [17:59]
A
The other thing, have you ever seen like, you, Are you familiar with what they call an alligator role where like a gator chomps down on you and then just starts twisting you under the water? That's what Emmanuel McNeil Warren reminds me of when he tackles people. Like, he gets his arms on you and he's going to wrap you up and like, and you're not getting away. I thought he was a very impressive tackler and I was like, yeah, let me add this big ass body to my run defense and hopefully he'll, he'll grow into a better coverage player. I, I understand the intrigue with this guy after watching him for sure. Even if, like I said, I mean, I, I don't know. I, I didn't come away super impressed with him as a coverage guy at this point in his career, but there's a million reasons I'd be excited to draft him other than that right now.
- [18:48]
B
Yeah, no, I think so. And I mean, I would encourage people to go back and read the story I did in September on him and just how Jason Candle, the head coach at Toledo, found him in a shoot around at, at basketball practice and was like, okay, we got something here. And McNeil Warren, he stayed loyal. He had options to trade or to transfer up, and he decided to stay put at Toledo with the coaching staff that developed him, with the guys that, you know, he came up with. And I don't, I don't think it's going to hurt him, put it that way. It didn't hurt Quinion Mitchell. I don't think it's going to hurt Emmanuel McNeil Warren either.
- [19:26]
A
All right, I want to do this all in a block, so let's take an earlier break than usual right now and then I want to talk about the day two safeties in this draft, which really feels like an exciting clump of players where you could potentially get good value. We'll do that in one sec. Familiar de Cancer de colon cologuard@cologardpun.com Diagonal if you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Running a business means juggling a lot of moving parts, and when your communication tools can't keep up, things start to slip. Missed calls, slow replies, scattered conversations. They're not just frustrating, they're lost opportunities and revenue left on the table. That's where Quo comes in. Spelled Q U O. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2, trusted by over 90,000 businesses. One shared business number for calls and texts so every conversation stays visible, organized and accountable. It works from an app or computer. You can keep your existing number, add teammates and sync your CRM, letting you scale without adding complexity. And with built in AI, Quo logs, calls, summarizes conversations and flags next steps even after hours. Stop missing customers. Stop leaving revenue on the table. Try Quo Free and get 20% off your first six months at quo.comtech. that's quo.comtech quo no missed calls, no missed customers. All right, Dane, a quirk about me as a draft guy and you know from working with me, I just, I get really excited about the value I can find between like picks 35 and 60. I just, I don't. I have an easy time talking myself into I don't know if you want to call those hidden gems because it's still pretty high up the draft board. But the guys that are in first round consideration but aren't quite there. I just, I have a real weakness for him.
- [22:54]
B
And that's why we love day two on this podcast. It's the best we do.
- [22:57]
A
Yes, it is the absolute best. And I just, I feel like the value is so good for the safety position on day two. Like starting on early Friday and going up to the mid-50s, I feel like there's going to be a really nice handful of guys available. Do you want me to start or do you like, do you have a name that jumps to your mind when you think of this range or do you want me to start?
- [23:21]
B
I. Yeah, why don't you start with like the favorite guy that you have maybe on day two of these safeties.
- [23:28]
A
Okay. It changed. It changed because I had a favorite guy when we started. Like when we did the production call, I had a favorite guy and we'll get to him because I like all these guys. But I spent some time this morning and it's a guy we've talked about before, but I spent some time this morning rewatching Keontae Scott. What a player. What, what a, what a football player. Dane I. And like I don't know exactly what he is in the NFL. Like he's, he's like a nickel.
- [24:00]
B
He's.
- [24:00]
A
He's like, he can be a box safety. He did some free he play like he plays in the slot. He's. I mean 13 tackles for loss as a, as a DB is absolutely insane. Like he's. I think you gotta be creative with what you do with him, but like the athletic profile, his instincts, his nose for the football. Just a phenomenal season for him at Miami and rewatching him, I wanted to make sure we highlight him as one of my very favorite guys that I figure will be available on day two.
- [24:33]
B
I remember in the season, it was the Louisville game, how excited I was to go on the pod with you and talk about Keonte Scott because like he was on the radar but he was more of a late round guy. Like maybe gets drafted, maybe not transferred in to Miami from Auburn. Wasn't even a full time starter in 2024 for Auburn so you know, expectations were pretty low. Gets to Miami and they play him in this role and it was the Louisville game that just clicked. Like, oh wow, okay, this play speed is different. This aggressiveness and the, the, the play style, it's a little bit different. It's creating plays and it showed at. At in that Louisville game and then it just felt like it built up from there. He missed a few games later in the regular season and it showed when he wasn't out there for that Miami defense. Then they get him back for the playoffs and that's where it just kind of really exploded. But he's, he's a linebacker in a corner body. So it's like, okay, what are we doing with this because you watch him, he'll set an edge. He'll, he'll on one, on one play, he'll set an edge on the next play. He'll avoid the block close to the ball, make that tackle for loss. His ability is a blitzer. Whether it's a delay or whether they scheme him open with some different simulated pressures that they bring. It's. Whenever he's going to the ball, it's always hot. He is always going a million miles an hour. And it just creates these plays. And so he's got this quick processor to whatever's going on in front of him. Click, boom, he's gone. Now, okay, he's this attacking nickel. That's great. But what about when he has to play in reverse? What about when you give him more coverage responsibilities? What does that look like? And that's where it's a little bit up and down. And, and so I think you're right figuring out like he will not be for everybody. Like there only might be, I don't know how many teams that are going to consider him round two or like I think he's going to go top 75 somewhere. So it's just a matter of is the right team looking for that style of player at that point in the draft because again, I just don't think he's going to be for everybody because of the skill set that he brings.
- [26:43]
A
And you know what, Dane? I'll say this to all of the GMS that I know. Listen to our show with bated breath. It's your job to get enough talent in the secondary of your team that Keonte Scott can function the way that he's supposed to and just be a C ball, get ball badass. Like I like, okay, whatever. Like I'm not trying to plug a square peg into a round hole. Like if you need better coverage players around him, that's fine. Like go find those guys and then a team that could just drop this guy in as like a Havoc creator. I, I, I love it. And yeah, I mean it's got to be the right team or you got to make sure the right guys are around him. But my God, what a fun player.
- [27:29]
B
He's an older guy. Like he's, he's gonna be a 25 year old rookie. And so like that's, that works against them too. But, and it's like, okay, while you know he, because he was a juco guy, goes to Auburn for three years, didn't really show anything like this at Auburn, especially last year. So yeah, there, there are Some questions attached here, but when you watch Miami's defense this year, he was the best player on the field. On the Louisville tape and on several other tapes, like thinking about Texas A and M, I'd give the. I would give the edge to Mezador. I think Mezador is the best player on the field that day. I think Scott was number two ahead of Bain.
- [28:04]
A
He was all over the place in the A and M game. In the Ohio State interception.
- [28:09]
B
Yeah, I mean, shoot. I mean it's. When you really look at the. The run that they had over the second half of the year.
- [28:18]
A
Yeah.
- [28:19]
B
I mean Keonte Scott, how could you not love this player?
- [28:21]
A
I'm not done talking about Miami DBs, but the other guy that I really loved when I was doing my film study for this show, who I assume he's flying under the radar because his team was not very good. I really love Zaki Wheatley out of Penn State and I. You want to talk about like big, rangy, physical players. Thinking back to what we said about Emmanuel McNeil Warren, I came away with a very similar snapshot of what Zaki Wheatley could be for you. Do you think that's off base?
- [28:54]
B
No. Cause again he's. He's another six three corner. You know, he's not in terms of speed, he's not McNeil Warren like McNeil or Wheatley is a 4, 62 guy where McNeil Warren's a 4, 5, 3 guy in the 40. With Wheatley though, like he's. He's a missile man. The way that like in. In sometimes it works against him with some of the. There. There is some inconsistencies with just because he, he plays so hot that sometimes it'll. He will have his misses and so you know those run fit angles and the finishing skills just needs to be more consistent. But yeah, give me the guy that is moving that fast and as willing decisive in coverage. Even though like he didn't have like the ball production. Lack of ball production this year was a little alarming. He had one pass breakup, one interception. That was it. But his going back to his junior year film, like coming into the year, Wheatley was really high in my summer rankings at safety and he didn't really live up to that in the stat sheet. But I think on tape you see a really solid player even though that Penn State defense didn't always play up to it this year. But yeah, I'm with you. I mean in terms of a key and a key and drive defender, a guy that can be versatile in the passing game. Like this is a guy that I think like Dan Quinn's going to love. Like you think about the dime and nickel flexibility that I think Dan Quinn really values. I think that's something that, you know, a coach like that, a scheme like that, it would really love. Wheatley in the second round or second day. Cause I think he probably goes in the third round.
- [30:31]
A
In the games I watched again, we talked about it with them and Penn State played him so deep and not to let him off the hook, but maybe the lack of ball production is tied to again a lack of opportunity, but it did not stop him from flying toward the football. And like, yeah, like there's definitely some, some reckless reps where he flies in so fast that he overruns things or maybe he misses the tackle, but he's, he's just a heat seeking missile. And the, the speed with which he got involved in everything, even as a really deep player really stood out to me. And yeah, like considering in my notes I said, you know, is, is he like a top 50 guy? I think I'd be more excited to draft him like in like pit, like somewhere in the 70s. That feels really great to me and I would be excited to do it. Like that sounds like really good value.
- [31:25]
B
He. So I'm put. I'm finishing my final top 100 and he's in the 70s. So yeah, I'm right there with you.
- [31:33]
A
Didn't even have that ahead of time. We're just simpatico. My guy. All right. Lest you, lest you think I'm a Homer Dane. Cause I'm not. I'm. I am honest and very forthright about my beloved LSU players. He's a phenomenal football player. I spent some time with AJ Halsey again, obviously like I watched the. His entire season, but I spent some time with him before we did this show. Really good football player. I came away from watching him where I was like, how well is this going to translate to the NFL? Because his body type is very interesting. Like he's what he's like 6 flat, 2, 2 10. I think something like that. He's not like this super rangy player. He's not a super fast player. LSU played him deep though. Like LSU played him deep a lot. And I was like, I don't think you're fast enough or rangy enough to be like a deep safety in the NFL. And I don't know that I trust your consistency to be like a full time box guy. And I just found myself wondering not to say that it can't translate like, maybe, maybe it can. But I was just like, ah, are you more of a tweener than I want you to be at the NFL level?
- [32:57]
B
I hear what you're saying. He, so you ran a 4, 5, 2, 40 at the combine, and that was the only drill or testing drill that he did in the process. No jumps, no shuttles, didn't do anything at the pro day. So, yeah, I think that there are still some questions there about just what type of athlete you are.
- [33:18]
A
It's, it's not all that explosive when you watch it by like NFL standards.
- [33:24]
B
Right. But I will say his instincts, his ability to get a beat on the ball before it arrives, it's almost like, okay, does that make up for maybe not being as explosive as some of these other guys? Because the, the instincts that he showed this past year at LSU were like, okay, I mean, you can make an argument, top three safety in this class just purely talking about instincts. So the recognition that he plays with, he has decent range. So I, I, I are going to look at him and say, okay, we, we think this could be a starter. And I, I, I, I understand why some might not make that bet, but I understand why others will make that bet. His, his nickname in, in high school was Mr. Give me that. And I think it's like he's lived up to it. I mean, he had five interceptions last year at Houston, three this year at lsu. Got his hands on a lot of footballs. Um, yeah, I, I think that teams are going to be trusting the instincts on this one and the way that he's able to see the, see the whole field, break on the ball, make a play, but I also get some of the, some of the reservations as well.
- [34:37]
A
I understand that the instincts are really good. And you like. Yeah, his tape is full of him anticipating things and making plays on the football from a position where you didn't think he'd be able to. He is a good football player. I kind of similar, similar to what we said about Keonte Scott. I just hope the team that drafts him has a specific role in mind and hopefully some talent around him. Like, I think AJ Halsey would be a phenomenal player if you can take some things off of his plate. If you're asking him to be the general of your secondary, I get a little bit nervous. That's just me.
- [35:13]
B
Yeah, that's fair.
- [35:16]
A
Keeping it moving. Let's see. We're, we're still in the sweet spot. Okay. I did want to ask you, this is your guy. And again, I'LL be fully transparent. I couldn't find Genesis Smith tape, Dane. I couldn't get my hands on any. So I'm, I'm counting on you to give me the snapshot of this guy.
- [35:33]
B
I don't want to call him my guy because there's people that like him a lot more than I do. Yeah, I mean, I, it is tough because he is, you see the coverage range, you see the ability in the back end of a defense and what that can mean as a more of a single, high, deep third type of player and what that can bring to your defense. But is he physical enough? Is it him as a tackler? Is that going to be enough for you to over. Can he do enough in those areas to keep him on the field? And that's where I just don't know. I, I, I don't know the answer to that. And I think every team is going to look at it a little bit differently. You know, he, he played, they call it the bear position at Arizona where he's basically a free safety, plays a lot, a lot deep, he can cover a lot of ground. You see like different than Halsey. You see the explosiveness with him, with the way that he can move from a spot. He's just, he's a finesse defender, that there's no way around it. He is a finesse defender and he will sometimes abandon his fits. Sometimes he will attempt lesser contact. He's making a tackle. And it's just, I don't know. This is, we, we talked a similar way about Kalen Bullock when he was coming out of usc. And I think Bullock's been a good player for the Texans since he's on his rookie contract. And so can Genesis Smith be that type of player for an NFL team? Maybe, but I think there's a lot of red flags with the player.
- [37:06]
A
You talk about having a hard time evaluating college safety play. How about a guy who barely even played safety in his final season at South Carolina? That would be Jalen Kilgore, who was a slot corner for all intents and purposes. I mean, that's just what South Carolina asked him to do. I think you can see, you can see his talent. You can see like the, the raw athleticism. I mean, what, I think he ran a 44 flat at the NFL combine,
- [37:38]
B
so, I mean, 210 pounds.
- [37:40]
A
Yeah, yeah, he, he's, he's a freaky athlete. And South Carolina could get away with asking him to do that, but I came away, I just not even a, a critique or a comment on the player, I, I came away confused where I was like, okay, I don't think this is what anybody in the NFL is going to ask him to do on a regular basis. I mean, he's out there. You go watch the Texas A and M game. And KC Concepcion is just like, he's overmatched, but like, of course he is. He's a safety playing nickel. So I came away from the experience a little confused and I found myself thinking, well, I bet his NFL role is going to look a little bit different than what I'm watching right here.
- [38:20]
B
I think people see this, the 40 speed and they think, oh, okay, well he's fast. So yeah, he can cover in the slot. And it's, it's so much more than just speed. When you talk about coverage ability, like functional coverage speed means a lot of breaking on a beam, to break cut on a dime, change directions. And that's where Kilgore just, I just, it's, it's really inconsistent in terms of man to man. Let's cover a slot receiver and you know, we'll, we'll, we'll blanket him. You know, he, so he went into the starting lineup as a freshman, actually. When Emin Worry got hurt, they, they, Kilgore kind of got pressed into action right away and he lived up to it. I mean, he was a freshman all American. He had, you know, made plays right away and you know, he's, he's, you look at the ball production, eight interceptions the last three years, all SEC player. Like, there's, there's a lot to like about him, but I think he's a much better deep safety where he's going to play a more traditional safety role. He can give you some versatility where you can use him as a hybrid and work him down and do these different things. But I don't want him as strictly a nickel defender. Like, I just don't think that's, I just don't think it's going to work that way. I want him as more of a do everything safety and let's use that size and athleticism and ball hawking ability and you know, let's. So it feels like you're just making a bet with this player. And so I think that he's too talented to fall out of the, out of day two, fall out of the top 100. I think he'll go somewhere day two. But I tell you, grades are all over the place on him. Some teams are a little more optimistic and willing to make those bets so that some Teams aren't, aren't at all, you know, just for the, it's a high risk, high reward type of pick and for a team that chases the upside, could be rewarded. When we look back at what, what Kilgore has been in the NFL, to
- [40:22]
A
give you all an idea, Jaylen Kilgore played 750 snaps for South Carolina last year. 500 of those came in the slot. He, he played some box and I mean, he played like a handful of deep snaps. It's just not what they asked him to do. And like I said, the, the athleticism, he's a very, like, he's a very physical player. Like, when he's actually in the action, he, you know, I'm, I'm impressed by the athlete. I'm not impressed by what he was doing for South Carolina. I, this feels like a case where if he lands in the right situation and kicks ass immediately and people are surprised because he was doing some weird shit for his college team, like, that wouldn't be like that. That would make a lot of sense to me if a team had a plan for him that was a lot better than what he was doing for a lot of his snaps last year.
- [41:13]
B
Yes. I mean, coverage athleticism is more about efficiency rather than who's the fastest. Right. And so that, that's what it boils down to with Kilgore.
- [41:23]
A
We probably got to pick it up if we don't want this to be a two hour episode. Can I tell you, can I tell you about a guy that I really loved watching?
- [41:31]
B
Okay.
- [41:33]
A
Speaking of the Hurricanes, I said I would go back to them. Really love Jacoby Thomas, man. And like, at, at the end of the day, I, I, I know myself and my shortcomings and what I like in a player. I love guys who look like they hate the other team. I love guys that just play with attitude and look angry and look like they're offended that you're trying to make a play against them. And that's Jacoby Thomas in like, everything that he does. Like, he's passionate, he moves everywhere very fast. And like, I don't think he ran at all. Did he run at all in this process? I couldn't find a 40 on him.
- [42:16]
B
He did not run at the combine. At the pro day, he ran a 4, 5, 7.
- [42:20]
A
Yeah. So like he's you. He's not like a.
- [42:23]
B
Why we need the beast? Because it's all in there that you're,
- [42:26]
A
you're so right, Dane. And ironically, doing these shows would be a lot easier If I had the beast. So I really can't wait for next week. But like you can tell he's not this freaky straight line athlete, but I'll be damned if he doesn't get to where he needs to be quickly and with a really nasty attitude. And I just, I really admire that in a football player.
- [42:48]
B
And like with Keonte Scott, who didn't do much at Auburn, transfers to Miami and they able to weaponize him. It was similar with Jacoby Thomas because he was a Middle Tennessee State guy, actually went to college as an offensive player, made the switch to the secondary, played pretty well for middle, Middle Tennessee State, able to transfer up to Tennessee, but then he didn't really do anything in 2024. It was a, he didn't start a game, it didn't have a lot of production. Transfers Miami and they're able to kind of weaponize him. And I, I think I, I agree with a lot of what you said. He's, he's a passionate competitor. He's just, it feels like every play he's just chomping at the bit to make a play. And there are some times where that's a double edged sword because it will lead to over pursuit. Missed. Um, I don't, I, I, I think that he will overthink route concepts at times especially and he's not nearly as effective when his, when his back is turned to the ball. But this is a guy that I, I think if you put him in position to make plays, he will. So I, he has the floor of a special teamer. And I think that if he's knocking on the door of getting on the field, I wouldn't be surprised. He's, I don't think he goes top 100, but I think early on day three, anywhere, fourth round, fifth round, somewhere in there, I think Jacoby Thomas will come off the board.
- [44:04]
A
And I was gonna say, thinking back to my guy, AJ like maybe, maybe it's hypocritical for me to love Jacoby Thomas as I as much as I do and be a little bit down on AJ Halsey, but if you tell me I could get Jacoby Thomas outside the top 100 and AJ Halsey's a top 60, top 65 pick, I like the value of that a lot. Like, even if AJ Halsey's an awesome player, like, I like the value of finding a guy like Jacoby Thomas on day three, that would be pretty fantastic in my opinion.
- [44:36]
B
Yeah, I think that makes sense and that, that those are the type of scenarios that teams are going through is. Okay. We could get. Yeah, a Bud Clark from TCU in the mid third. Or do we wait, maybe go for Kamari Ramsey from USC in the mid fourth? Like, you know, those types of things are the types of conversation that teams are having as they stack their board
- [44:58]
A
real quickly before we move on. Okay. You mentioned Bud Clark. He's absolutely worth a mention. The interception. God. Had a phenomenal Senior bowl back in January. I did. I wanted to ask you about Kamari Ramsey. Cause that's another guy. USC played him a lot in the slot this past season. So I like a guy who I think was probably playing out of position for his final year in college. Came into the year with a ton of hype. And in addition to the position switch, also got hurt this year. So I was. I was curious for your take on why. Why he is where he is on the draft board and where you stand on him right now.
- [45:38]
B
I like him in, you know, like the fourth. Like, I don't know that he, like. I liked him a lot coming in. He was like, I don't know, top 50 somewhere like in the 40s for me. He's not the biggest guy. Not the. He's got good speed. I think he ran a 447 at £200. But he did play out of position a lot. They kind of rotated in between nickel and safety. And I think the most times it's the linebackers that are wearing the green dot. Not for usc. They had Ramsey wearing the green dot because that communication always flowed through him. And not really a surprise when you see the impact he makes on the field. I mean, the fluidity, the speed he can survive in man to man. But I like him better in zone where he's. He's not asked to man up. He's asked to kind of sort through the traffic and just kind of be a couple steps ahead because he does see things and the way things play out. And I remember talking to him about how much he liked playing chess, and I was like, oh, boom. That's. That makes total sense because that's kind of how he plays. He likes to be a couple steps ahead. And that's. That's something that I think will translate well to the next level.
- [46:47]
A
I'm looking at your board. You have 24 safeties with some sort of grade before we move on to corner. Is there anybody else you feel like we need to hit?
- [47:01]
B
Let's see. We. We hit most of them. I mean, Michael Taft would be a solid day three safety out of Texas. Dalton Johnson from Arizona. You know he ran on the four, four ones which is, which is good to see. I, I really like the mod Moses from smu. Unfortunately he had the, had the injury that was flagged at the combine, so I don't, I don't know that he's going to get drafted. But I, I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, we haven't heard the last from, from Moses because he was a good player on tape.
- [47:33]
A
It's a lot of guys. Like I said, I, I love the value, particularly in the first like half of the safety board. I think there's just going to be a lot of good safeties drafted. Obviously a few on Thursday, but particularly on Friday. Just feels like it's going to be fun for this position. I would love in depth but we got to do cornerback two and we're going to do that on the other side of this break. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stock locked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Negativos la preva de Cologard nor rem Plaza la colonoscopia empacientes de alto riezgo nose escolo guard siastenido adenomas citnesierto syndrome es hereditarius o unistorial personalo familiar de cancer de colon enlas parli italiano. If you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com sl a cast spelled b a b b e l.com acast rules and restrictions may apply. I absolutely love it when a plan comes together as it did just now because we bumped CornerBack to the second half of the show so that Jad McCoy could go through his pro day workout. And while we've been talking Dane Adam Schefter and a whole Heap of other people at Tennessee's pro day say Jermad McCoy, coming off of his ACL tear in January of 2025, ran a 4, 3, 8, 40 with a 38 inch vertical and a 10, 7 broad. Now pro day 40s, I don't completely trust them. But even if Jermod McCoy's official time is slightly slower than 438, way, way good enough to make you feel all right about where things stand.
- [50:58]
B
It was similar to Mansour Delane. It was like, okay, can you get below a 4, 4, 5? And he, he did that. Yeah, I, I agree. We'll, I'll talk to some teams later today and get quote unquote official times or the team, the times that the teams are using, but I'm sure it'll be close to that. Low four fours, high four threes. And that's like, I don't. Did you, what did you. Let me ask you this, what did you expect in a run based off of the 2024 tape? Did you have any expectations of hey, he's really fast or he's kind of slow or like, what were your expectations going in?
- [51:35]
A
I, I thought he would have really impressive speed. Like, again, I don't completely trust 4, 3, 8, but if you had asked me to spitball what I thought he could run, if he was fully healthy, I probably would have said like around a 4, 4 flat.
- [51:51]
B
Yeah, no, I think I would agree. I mean, I think the first line in my report is gifted athlete for a size and closest separation quickly. Like he's just, he is a, he's an above the line athlete for the cornerback position. So I don't think we expected any slow times out of him. But it's good to see on paper exactly what it is. Now, I think even more importantly than the 40 is, I want to talk to scouts and see how, going through cornerback drills, how did he look? Because that's, it's really funny when you talk to scouts about pro days because they'll like, they'll see, you'll see a number posted and be like, oh right, check that box. Looks good. But then you talk to a scout and it's like, actually he sucked during cornerback drills. He looked terrible. And I was in kind of caught off guard by that. And, but that, that happens. And so I'm eager to hear from scouts about how the corner drills looked. Moving in reverse, change of direction, just being able to be an athlete and not hopefully no restrictions from the knee injury, which again, that was what, 14 months ago at this point. So hopefully no restrictions in in that respect because we just going on the 2024 tape, this is a top 15 player in the draft. You can make an argument Top 10 player in the draft. So it's just the obviously when you're dealing with a knee injury, it things get a little bit clouded today. Hope helps a little bit. Figure we have a better idea of where his draft status is going to be.
- [53:23]
A
So you're going to hate this and I apologize. And we understand you haven't talked to anybody yet. You're welcome to change your mind. And the Beast is out next week and will reflect a more complete picture if we can assume for the purposes of entertaining podcasts that it's a clean bill of health and J. McCoy looks good working out today and everybody feels reasonably good about where he's at. Is is this a real conversation now for CB1 and first cornerback off the board? Like, does this pretty substantially close the gap between him and Mansoor Delaine? Or do you think Mansour Delaine, even if he's not quite as physically gifted of a player, he's just so clean. Like, do you think the cleanness of Mansour Delaine gives him an edge or do you think this is a very real conversation?
- [54:20]
B
I would think so. That now McCoy has the edge in size, but not by a ton. He's an inch taller, inch longer in terms of arm length. So, okay, give McCoy the edge there. Is that enough to go, you know, with a player that hadn't. You don't have any tape from this past year coming off a knee injury, has not played in a game since he had the surgery? I don't think so. I mean, I still think Mansour Delaine is going to be the favorite to be cornerback one going into the draft for most teams, cleanest tape just it's harder to poke holes in. Now if he maybe if he was five, nine and a half, five, ten or you know, like something where you really have to compromise or if he ran a 4, 4, 9, you know, maybe. But with Delane you just, there's fewer ways that you can nitpick him where with McCoy you still obviously have the, the knee injury that there's still a little bit of a question mark there. So I think for most teams Delane will be cornerback one and then but I think it's fair that right after we're done Talking about Delane McCoy is right there in that conversation. Whether that's could it be as early as nine to the Chiefs? Could it be, you know, talking about the Ravens sitting there in the top 15, one of these other teams in the top 20. I mean the Cowboys could be an interesting spot. I, I think that as long as there's no major questions about the knee and the pro day, you get two thumbs up from scouts, he's going to go somewhere. Top 15, top 17.
- [55:49]
A
So I said earlier I thought like, like I thought Caleb Downs could fall past 12. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened in a world where Downs and Mansoor Delaine were both available at pick number 12. Like I do, like I think I could see Dallas like opting for the cornerback. And so I think that's a similar teams.
- [56:10]
B
Right? I mean most teams know for sure. Yeah, look, look at the corner. More so than the safety.
- [56:15]
A
I feel like 12 is Mansour Delane's absolute floor as a prospect. Like if he's not already gone by 12, he will be gone by then. And then McCoy assuming a good bill of health. I don't know. You can't, I can't imagine him lasting too far past like pick not, not, not out of the teens, put it that way.
- [56:37]
B
Yeah, no, I think I agree. And I mean I, I mentioned the Chiefs. It'd just be, it'd be a fun story because he grew up in White House, Texas. Like he was, like he had McCoy had Mahomes aunt as a third grade teacher. He was coached by Mahomes dad. So there's a lot of connections there with Mahomes family. So it'd be a fun story to talk about. But I think it's realistic to start talking about McCoy in that range, you know, that 9 to 17 range as a possible landing spots for him.
- [57:10]
A
Let's not talk about how this year's rookies watched Patrick Mahomes as kids because it makes me feel terrible. Let's do, let's do talk about another bit of topical news for the cornerback discussion. A guy that's widely considered, he's at least on the short list. I would call him cornerback three. Maybe you would disagree. But either way, Avion Terrell in the news this week because he tried to run at a private workout and the report coming out of that workout is that he sustained a hamstring injury on his first run of the day and so sounds like we've got an inconclusive on Avion Terrell's 40 yard dash and hopefully that's not an injury that's going to linger for him too long.
- [57:57]
B
Yeah, that's a bummer. I think it's a bummer for him and I think who. It's not a bummer for some of those teams, like playoff teams picking the 20s that are kind of. Oh, okay. Avion. Terrell. I think we might have a legit shot to get this player here because he's just such a good player. I think that not having a 40 will hurt him a little bit. Corner is just a stopwatch position. Like it or not, it does matter. And so not having that, will it hurt him a little bit? You know, he's not a, a big guy. I mean he was a five, ten and three quarters. So he's under 511, you know, not super long. But he's just, you watch his film and he's everywhere. He, he's. I've, I mentioned this before with him. He has a honey badger aura to him. That's just the way he plays.
- [58:47]
A
And so I thought you were gonna diplomatically call me an idiot if I said that. Like that's what he made me think of. He makes me think of Tyron. Matthew. I, I love this guy, Dane, and I don't give a shit if he doesn't have a 40, honestly. Yeah, like, if it helps a good team, get him, good for him. Like go, go to Seattle and prosper, young man.
- [59:08]
B
I like eight force fumbles the last two years.
- [59:11]
A
Like I love the guy, dude. Like he does not give a shit that he is a smaller player. He's gonna mix it up with anybody that wants the smoke and he's a good player. And like I, I don't, I didn't see anything that made me think his speed was some sort of deficiency that's going to screw him over in the long run. Like, even if he's not the fastest guy, he seems plenty fast enough to me. And if, if they, I mean he doesn't need to run until August. So if you're, if you're going to let me have him at pick 30 when he should have gone higher than that because, because of his hamstring, I'm fine with that. I, I love this guy.
- [59:50]
B
I mean you, you throw on the, the press man reps and he, he's not getting blown off the ball by speed. Um, I mean, it's just he can play off and you see the, the, the read and drive reactions and the way he, he flows with the ball, the physicality jumps out for a smaller player, quote unquote, smaller player against both the pass and the run. Um, now there will be times, obviously, especially if you're playing on the outside against size in the NFL, it's just, it'll show up where the bigger body's going to. It's going to be tougher for him to affect the catch point, but he's not going down without a battle and he's going to battle his butt off every single snap. And it. Clemson was not a particularly fun team to watch this year for. For a program that has so many prospects in this draft, it was kind of a chore to watch Clemson, but it was not a chore to watch Terrell. I'll say that it was fun to watch him because he competes every single snap and that's, that's the type of guy you want to build your team around.
- [60:49]
A
He's, he's a fun player and if he was like an inch taller or an inch and a half taller, I think he'd have way more fans. And I, he, he does have a lot of fans. Like he's considered a first round prospect, but I feel like he sort of, he's a little more under the radar than I think he deserves. But speaking of which, there's another guy that's even more under the radar. Like if we're talking about the top of the cornerback class. I really feel like Colton Hood out of Tennessee is just a completely forgotten man. I mean, I know like, you know, people consider him a first round prospect, but he doesn't seem to get nearly the amount of publicity. And I was wondering if you could help me figure out why that is.
- [61:29]
B
Well, he went to the Senior bowl and it was okay. Wasn't great. He only, he only practiced like what, two days and he got hurt and, and kind of bowed out. But yeah, this is a good player for sure. And he, another transfer, he was at Auburn, Colorado and then came into Tennessee. So him and McCoy, Jermod McCoy actually never played together, but he kind of stepped up into that cornerback one role for the Volunteers and played well played at a high level. You know, he like nine passes defended. He shows up in the run game. He's a really scrappy player. I, I think that if you want a guy that can do pressman, you know, he can play. He has, I think he showed promise as an off coverage defender with his eyes and his reliable tackling skills. So yeah, I mean he is right there in that first round mix as well. I think it's. If we're going to say Mansoor Delane and Jermaine McCoy the first two corners drafted, then I think there's a little bit of a discussion about, okay, teams will be a little bit split on who's that next corner off the board? Is it going to be Colton Hood? Will it be Terrell? I think Chris Johnson, my guy from San Diego State, is in that mix. So, but yeah, he's, he's right there in the, in the late first round.
- [62:42]
A
How do you have Hood and Chris Johnson stacked?
- [62:45]
B
You personally, I, their, their tags are touching. I mean, I, I'm a big Chris Johnson fan. I just think he's another clean player. But Colton Hood's a good player as well. So I, I, they are neck and neck for me.
- [62:58]
A
The line I got on Chris Johnson out of San Diego State is that he has the smoothest hips that you've ever seen. Like, the fluidity he plays with is striking.
- [63:11]
B
And the big question for him was going to be speed because that's what talking to, Because I was all in on this guy like in September when I was checking around with scouts and the big question that scouts would bring up would be okay, but the school says he's going to run a 455 or like he just, I'm not sure about the speed and I don't. That's not, when you watch his film. I, the lack of speed did not jump out to me. Like, usually if a guy's slow, if a corner's slow, you can tell pretty quickly. But you know, playing Mountain west competition, like maybe. Okay, does that hide it a little bit? He goes to the combine and rips off a 4:4:0 in the 40 yard dash and it's like, okay, can we, can we put that to bed a little bit with these speed concerns? But yeah, Chris Johnson is he. And I, I've talked to him multiple times and every time I've just been more impressed, more and more impressed with the person that he is just an awesome guy, very smart, very cerebral and just the way that he processes things. So physically. All right, check that box. He's over six foot. He runs in the four low four fours. And then you talk to the guy and you're even more impressed with the person. It's like, okay, I am running out of reasons why this guy shouldn't be a first round pick.
- [64:20]
A
Going back to Hood really quickly, he's, he's 21 if I'm not mistaken. Again, I can't consult the Beast yet. I know he went to the Senior bowl, but I made a note of that where based on what I saw, like the, the long speed, the ability and coverage, even if he's not a, a well rounded player yet, I was just like, all right, I'M I'm in on this skill set. If this guy's only 21 years old, like there's, I feel like there's a lot of room to grow there. That made him. I, I was more intrigued when I realized that he's, he's still a fairly young guy.
- [64:57]
B
Yeah, yeah. Young player who's continuing to get better. I mean Delane, he's the only. Well, I guess Chris Johnson is senior too. But there's a lot of underclassmen in the, the top 50. Terrell McCoy, Hood Pond. D' Angelo Pons is an underclassman. Brandon C. Say from South Carolina is an underclassman. But yeah, I mean Colton Hood, there's, there's reasons why he's popping up in first round mocks.
- [65:25]
A
Talk about a guy. We, we can talk about him briefly because he's near and dear to our hearts and he's come up often. But the sixth corner on your board with a firm second round grade is our guy, d' Angelo Pons, which I think is completely fair. But let's talk about the 5 9, 182 corner prospect who is apparently a firm second round grade. I mean you don't see that every day.
- [65:53]
B
And five nine is a little generous because he was like five eight and five eight and five eight.
- [65:58]
A
Yes, you can have it.
- [65:59]
B
No, so you can have it. So just, you know, it's, it's, it's worth pointing out, but yeah. And he's under 30 inch arms in terms of length. But just throw on the tape and it's like I don't, I don't. Yeah, it's a similar thing with Mikey San. We're still, when he was coming out of Michigan, like the way that he can impact the game, like I understand where you're not taking him in the first round. I get it. But to not take him in the second round, like what are we doing? Do we not like good players? D' Angelo Pons on film tells you everything. He's a good player and it doesn't matter, you know. Yeah, there were some missteps against Jeremiah Smith. That's going to happen. Jeremiah Smith would work some NFL corners right now. D' Angelo pawns week in, week out, what he did against Oregon, you know, whatever tape you want to throw on, he is making plays. And so I'm just, I'm a big believer it's going to translate. And he, he did it the moment he showed up at James Madison. He's a freshman all American. Then he transfers to Indiana and it shows up There. And it's just so. I get it, he's undersized. That might be a deal breaker for some. The confidence swagger he plays with, the COVID talent, the instincts, the competitive toughness. It's. It's in his DNA. It's who he is, it's how he plays. And so an inside out NFL starter. That's what I see with this guy.
- [67:14]
A
Can I skip down the board a little bit to cover some similar ground? Because everything you're saying, and I know he's. He's not. He's. He's a bigger player. Like, to be fair to my guy, Chandler Rivers, he's a full five, nine and a half. But again, this is. This is an undersized cornerback. I think you have him 12th on your corner board with, I believe, like a 3, 4 type of grade. So I think he'll go 3.
- [67:41]
B
I think. I think he'll get in there. Yeah. Top 100.
- [67:44]
A
I know we talked about him at the Senior Bowl. That's when he popped up on my radar. But, like, I love this guy. Dane, again, going. Going back to what I said about Jacoby Thomas. Like, Chandler Rivers hates you. He hates you for having the audacity to. To line up against him. And like everything he does just has this infectious energy. Like, you know, watching dbs is a little tedious, man, because, like, they're not getting. They're not getting targeted every down. They're not always in the mix. Like, you could watch 10 snaps of a DB and not see anything interesting happen, at least in terms of, like, being near the football. Chandler Rivers is like smelling salts. Like it. Is it, like, it'll wake you up. You're like, oh, shit. All right, we're doing some stuff. Like he's. He's just. He's such a sudden athlete. He's flying all over the place. He's rotating around the back end like chain, changing coverage calls, dropping back to play safety if he needs to, and he hits like a missile and runs like a son of a bitch. And I just. I want that guy on my team, if you can't tell.
- [68:58]
B
Yeah, no, I. Now I know how to get you pumped up. I just throw on some Chandler Rivers tape and we're off to the races.
- [69:05]
A
What a badass, man.
- [69:07]
B
He's fun, man. Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought him up. Piggybacking off of the d' Angelo Pons conversation because again, an undersized guy who. Look, he's always been undersized. It's not like he woke up one Day and he was smaller than everybody. He has always had to work a little bit harder and be a little bit tougher. And so like that's just, it's ingrained in him. And you see it play out, you know, week out, week in, week out, on the, on the film with the way he played at Duke. And I'm, I'm with you. He's just, he's a very spirited player. He's undersized, but you see the foot quickness, you see fluidity. I, I, that this lack of size will limit the landing spots. That's just the facts. But I think the team that bets on him, you're betting on a guy that's just, he's a, he's a nat at a barbecue. He's just annoying. He just, he, the way that he will swarm receivers, it will, it's like he turns you off when you look at the, the size. And then you watch the film and you just, you're drawn right back in because of the way that he reads the quarterback, the way he competes. Yeah. He's got a long NFL career awaiting him. And I would say if there is an Upton Stout in this class, it could be him, you know, that late third, mid to late third round pick who maybe a lot of teams overlook. But okay, 49ers are going to take you there. Okay. Upton Stout had a good rookie season. I think Chandler Rivers could be that guy in this class.
- [70:31]
A
Upton Stout is exactly who I thought about watching him where. And look, Upton Stout, he didn't always know where he was during his rookie season, but he was damn it if he wasn't going to try. And it was, it was good more often than it was bad. And yeah, if that's Chandler Rivers, then that, that's awesome. I just, I'm glad you brought him up.
- [70:52]
B
Yeah. Good place.
- [70:52]
A
Do yourself a favor if you're listening, like go, go find, go find some highlights or some tape if you can get your hands on it. He is, I mean, you don't need, you don't need an afternoon coffee. Just watch Chandler Rivers to wake yourself up. All right.
- [71:06]
B
Awesome.
- [71:06]
A
I digress. So two, two undersized corners that we love very much and are gonna. I hear their names called in the top 100, I would guess. Where do you. Okay. There's a couple places we could take it from here. Like, I mean, you mentioned Brandon C. Say, can you, can you give me a clearer picture of Brandon C. Say who you have a affirmed to firm second round grade on.
- [71:31]
B
Yeah. And I, he so like he was in my mid season top 100 or top 50 like I don't know 25 or something like that. Which I know is the first time a lot of people saw his name and is being talked about as a first round player and I kind of cooled off of that sense. He was always kind of billed as this freak athlete and I mean to a certain extent he was. He did not work out. He did not run the 40 at the combine. But at pro day he ran a 4, 4 1. He had a 41 inch vert at the, at the pro at the combine. So I mean he's got the athleticism. He's. He's a decent sized guy. He's almost 6 foot. He's 5113 quarters. But I think that there's still parts of his game that just there he's more athlete than pure cover corner at this point in terms of anticipating, in terms of being in position to regain phase the ball skills need to be a little bit better left some production on the field needs to be a little more controlled with the way he uses his hands where it's just not going to be easy for. For officials to call flags and just there's a lot of playing the position where he's not quite there yet. Not not counting him out obviously have a second round grade on him but I think he's a little more athlete than polished cover man right now which isn't a bad thing by any means. You know that's there's going to be a team in the top 50 most likely more than willing to make a bet on a guy like that. But it's just not as. As clean of an evaluation as others.
- [72:59]
A
Do you think it's fair if that kind of explains how I felt about Malik Muhammad out of Texas?
- [73:06]
B
Yeah, sure. I the only caveat there is I don't think we expected Malik Muhammad to test the way he did. C say we expected like that that he was the athlete. I watching Malik Muhammad I did not I thought he might run in the like 4, 5, 5. I did not expect to see the way 4, 4, 2 at the combine and then even at the, at his pro day he was a 6953 cone. So I mean he just tested off the charts and then I and then I went back and watched the film because it's like okay, I didn't expect that. I went back and watched the film and I still don't see a 442 or the 695. Like I just don't see it consistently show up on film doesn't mean he's still think he's a good player. But I don't. I didn't see the testing necessarily translate to the on field stuff.
- [73:54]
A
You know what's funny? Texas and South Carolina, we're talking about Brandon C. Say and Malik Muhammad. They both played Texas A and M. And that is those are games that I watched to study these guys. And I definitely found myself thinking how much of this is me not being impressed by you and how much of this is Casey Concepcion being a bad, bad man? Because he has, he has that effect on people. Unfortunately for them, he does on both of them.
- [74:22]
B
Yeah, that's, that's. That's funny you brought that up because, yeah, they're. He. He wasn't matched up like all game on those guys, but when he was, you felt conception speed. Unfortunately, we don't have a 40 time on Concepcion during the process, but you can get a good gauge for how fast he is based off of going up against some of these corners that he faced in the sec.
- [74:45]
A
Concepcion, like, I just, I felt like he. He had Muhammad in particular in a blender on several occasions where I was like, well, this doesn't look very good, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it's happening against a potential top. Top 25, top 20 sort of receiver. And like I said, I think. I think he did that to quite a few people. And. And again, I think Muhammad is a. He's a true junior, right?
- [75:11]
B
Yes.
- [75:12]
A
Yeah, he turns 22 in September. The athleticism is impressive. And I think with both of these guys, like, it's similar to what I said about Colton Hood where I'm like, there's, there's enough to like here where if I'm drafting you with the idea that you still have some developing to do, like, I can get on board with that. It's just not in the clear his place at this exact moment in time.
- [75:36]
B
Yeah, I think that's fair. Muhammad, I'll give him credit too, because he actually, I thought he impressed me at Senior bowl as well. So it's not just the testing. I thought he did him. Did himself some favors with the way he played in. Down there in Mobile. So he's crushed the process, which isn't be all end all, obviously, like, the tape is still what matters the most. So, yeah, Muhammad's one of those guys that I think teams are a little bit split on, but the profile, like the tag, when the tag on the board, that tag's gonna get drafted on day Two, no doubt.
- [76:08]
A
One of the stickiest guys I watched among your, like day two is grades. And this guy's, this guy's got a fringe grade, so potentially day three. But I thought people had a really, really hard time getting away from Dalon Everett out of the University of Georgia.
- [76:28]
B
Interesting.
- [76:30]
A
You disagree?
- [76:32]
B
No, I don't disagree. I struggled with him. I really did. I wanted him to make more plays. I wanted, I guess I like the player. It's just the playmaking. Like he was a tough guy to watch and I think part of it's the defense. Like that Georgia defense is just, it's not the most entertaining in terms of guys making plays on a consistent basis. But with Everett, you know, he, he's a good looking athlete. I, I think there's a lot of things you point to and say, okay, size. That'll, that'll play 6:1. Just over 6:1. He ran in the four fours. He was another guy that at, at the pro day, he didn't do anything. But the, the combine. Yeah, he was a 4, 3, 8, 37 half inch vert, 10, 4 broad. So as an athlete. Okay. Yeah, that, that checks the box. I just, I don't the time, speed, I don't think always showed up on tape, but I think he's fast enough. Like, I don't, I'm not, I don't think he's slow. Sometimes I felt like, especially when he playing like off coverage, that trigger is a little too conservative, a little too like, I want you to go drive, make a play. But I, he still found ways to, you know, be in position to limit what, what could have been. So I, I didn't love him. I don't love him as much as other people do, but I still recognize the talent and the, the traits that are o. This, this should work at the next level. It's least going to give you a chance to be on the field. And so he's one of those guys right on the cusp for me. Is it late one early or late three? Early four. Somewhere right around that fringe top 100.
- [78:12]
A
Okay. It's funny because I feel like we agree more than you might think because all I, what I said was he's a hard guy to get away from. Like, I like, I like his speed and I think he, like, he, he, he's a long strider, he's hard to get separation on and even when he gives up separation and he's good at gaining it back, I think you're dead on. He's not as. He's not as, like, assertive, for lack of a better word, as I wanted him to be. Like, I, like. I, I think there are reps where he gets boxed out at the catch point or he just doesn't attack the ball as well as you would prefer. And definitely not to say he's a perfectly clean prospect, but I did come away pretty impressed with his athleticism and his ability down the field. And you said it yourself, it's a stopwatch position, and I think that makes you worth a draft pick. And hopefully the coaching staff that is bringing you onto their roster can help you get there with the, with the nuances of it. Because he. I think he has the stuff that you can't coach.
- [79:17]
B
Yeah, I think that's fair. Like, in terms of, like, baseline, what you're looking for in a potential starter at corner, he checks those boxes now. Can he be more than that? Can he elevate his game to be more than just a. An adequate starter in the NFL? That's where I'm not. I don't feel great about that, but I think you're right. Baseline, he'd come in, compete for a starting job, and, you know, you might try to replace him in a year or two, but you're.
- [79:42]
A
He.
- [79:43]
B
But at the same time, he. There might be more in there where he could elevate himself as well.
- [79:47]
A
Do you think it's fair to say? And again, I have your board in front of me. I see 34 cornerbacks with some sort of draftable grade. But what. How do you, how do you think this thing shakes out? Like, if you're, if you are an NFL fan listening to this and you have a cornerback need, where do you, where do you feel like this draft starts to dip in value? Or where do you think. Where do you think is the cutoff for where you're trying to get a cornerback if you need one?
- [80:18]
B
Yeah, I don't, I don't love the day 3 depth at cornerback position this year. I mean, I think once we get. There's some really intriguing big, tall, long corners especially, we're gonna talk about them.
- [80:31]
A
We'll talk about them in a minute. But I just wanted to get your sense of. Of sort of. Yeah, like, the depth and where that cutoff lies.
- [80:37]
B
Right. So, like, fourth round, we'll see some of these guys go. But then, like, fifth, sixth, seventh round, I just, I don't love the, the depth that this corner class has to offer. Yeah, we, We. We touched on a lot of corners so far, and I think a lot of players but we'd still be playing in the league six, seven years from now. But then once we get to some of these guys in the fourth round, okay, they'll have a good chance. But then I think it really drops off. So if you're looking for a corner in this draft, I think you need to get them in the first four rounds.
- [81:06]
A
Let's talk about those, those big tall guys we wanted to highlight in the middle of your board, just a, a trio of redwood trees. And I think that is an apropos analogy since two of them played at the University of Washington out on the Pacific coast. Takario Davis and Efficient Price Sock. And we're not exaggerating. Davis 64194 with 33 and 38 inch arms, efficient price ox 6319633 and 1/8 inch arms. And they both ran just silly times at the combine, which I think they were on people's radars anyway. But when you do that at the size they're at, it's bound to crank the hype up a notch or two.
- [81:54]
B
Yeah, and I just, I want them to be better football players, put it that way. Like there's a lot to like about Takario Davis. It's hard to teach that size at that position, hard to teach that speed, that combination. I think that when you're talking about him as a player though, there are too many almost interceptions where it's like if he just, if he would have found the football that would have been a pick six or if he would have got his eyes turned around, if he would have anticipated the route, if maybe that the mirror and match was a little bit better and those false steps weren't there. He's, you know, making a play instead of creating an underneath window for the offense. And so then that's why we're talking about him, at least for me, as a fourth rounder compared to now, maybe someone will jump at those measurables in the, on day two. It's certainly possible. You don't see these measurables very often. Size, speed traits are crazy. But I think in terms of playing the position, I just, I, I have a lot of concerns there about whether or not, you know, he's able to, if he can make it at the next level. But I don't know, we'll, we'll see. And that I, I would even throw Julian Neal from Arkansas in there as well. Now he doesn't have the same type of speed. He's more of a 4, 5 guy, but another guy that's size, physicality, there's, there's a lot to like there.
- [83:20]
A
So I was going to bring up Neil, but Davis and Price sock make me laugh a little bit because it just shows like, the evolution of watching football where like I started covering the NFL when everybody was after the next Brandon Browner and Richard Sherman, like, those guys were doing their thing and setting the tone for the best defense in the league. And it's so enticing when you see a skill set like that and obviously like guys like that can become these amazing players. I mean, Richard Sherman is going to be a Hall of Famer, but like, over the years, I think I've just gotten burned out on chasing that archetype and I've, I've been disappointed with it more times than I haven't been. And that's like watching the Washington guys. I was like, yeah, this is really cool, but I think I care about your change of direction a little bit more than I care about your long speed and your length. Like, your ability to move quickly and stop and start in space is probably going to come up a hell of a lot more often than the fact that you can tie your shoes standing up. Up. And I mean that, like, they're, they're not bad football players. But. No, no, I just, But I, I felt like I was watching two aircraft carriers try to like, get up to speed, where I was like, yeah, you can get moving on a long enough stretch, but what about our short area stuff here? And I actually, I came away liking Julian Neil a little bit more because my exact note was. And he's, he's a little bit shorter. He's. He's not quite as big and he's not quite as fast either. But my note was that he just moves more like a normal person. Like, he doesn't, he doesn't look like he needs two miles to get up the Runway. He, like, he, he's got some stop start and some short area to his game and I came away feeling a little bit more comfortable with him as a prospect as a result.
- [85:21]
B
Yeah, I still don't. He, like, I wouldn't classify him as sudden or like.
- [85:25]
A
No, but like, he's not, not compared to guys who are really good at that. But if you're talk talking about big, rangy corners, I think he's, he's better than, than some.
- [85:35]
B
Yeah, no, I, And I think that's fair. I mean, all these guys, they're, they're playing to their strengths, which is going to be the size like, like Takario Davis, like, who are the Top two top tackles in this draft. Maui Noah and Fano. Right. Takaria Davis has a larger wingspan than both of them. Like I. It's just. It's rare stuff. It's to have guys with that type of size run 4, 3. But I do agree with you, Neil. I feel. I feel better about his cover talent. I feel better about the way that he will attack the football from different angles. I. With Neil, he was a Fresno State guy, transferred Arkansas this past year in Arkansas's defense was terrible. But Neil is one of the few bright spots where you come away watching that defense saying, this defense is terrible. But I don't know, this number 23 can. Can make some plays. And so I like the way he tracks the football. I think it was the Memphis tape. If you go back and watch the Memphis tape, you really see Julian Neal track the ball, make some plays. He. He does have some sync to him. It's not like he is a. Just a big, stiff athlete there. There. I think there is some hip fluidity there. There is some sync there. He plays confident, which, you know you love. You can tell that he puts in the time, you know, understanding the routes and the different combinations that the offense likes to play because he. I thought he was really confident with the way that he was attacking. You saw lateral agility with him. So with. With Neil, I do think that you're right. You see a little more of the coverage ability, but you sacrifice a little bit of speed because again, he's more of a 45 guy than a 43 guy like the other ones.
- [87:13]
A
I will say this on Price Ox behalf. I watched the Ohio State game, and going back to what we said about KC Concepcion, there's a lot of these guys we've talked about where I'm like, are you. Are. Are you actually a bad player or are you playing Jeremiah Smith? Cause, like, that's. I mean, that's not really fair. It's not fair to anybody.
- [87:35]
B
We're. That. That'll be a common theme here. Yeah.
- [87:37]
A
But I do think so. Takario Davis was out. And that's another thing with Davis. He missed a lot of the season with rib and hamstring injuries, so that's worth keeping in mind. But. So Price Hawk played Ohio State without the benefit of having Davis. And considering you're going up against Carnell Tate and Jeremiah Smith, I thought he held his own. Like, I thought he looked mostly good in a game with that type of receiver talent out there. And like, Jeremiah Smith scored in that game. But it was not on Price OCK and Carnell Tate had a very pedestrian day as a receiver. So I, I and especially like if, if you're asking him to defend the sideline and do big long corner stuff, I thought he was, I thought he was good at it. Again, it's just I don't know how, how enamored am I by that in 2026, like when, when, when, when winning in short areas and with suddenness, it feels so important these days and that's
- [88:36]
B
why we're talking about day three at this point, you know. So I, I but there will be some teams that maybe value that a little bit more than others.
- [88:44]
A
I am calling it a win that we're just now coming up on an hour and a half before we get out of here. Is there anybody else that you just feel like we really need to hit or that I forgot to mention
- [88:59]
B
Keith Abney from Arizona State is a guy I really like on day two. He didn't do anything at the combine but he crushed Pro Day. He was 4,45 in the 46913 cone traden stooks from Arizona is a guy that we definitely need to mention just as a, he's an older guy like he's going to be a 25 year old rookie but him as a nickel is a really like plug and play nickel. Drop him in. He was a 433 guy in the, in the 40 and that shows up on film his ability to find the football, go make a play. He'll overlap coverage. He's like obviously you want the 21 year old but him being older I think you know he's a former walk on. He's got a great but I think you really value the experience that a guy like Traden Stoops brings to the field and going to bring to your NFL corner room or DB room because I think it does show on, on film with his ability to go make plays. So definitely mentioned Stuks. I think on day three. Jaden Kennedy, the Oregon corner, more of a nickel. I think he's going to be one of those, you know, rounds, rounds four, round five somewhere for a team looking for more of a inside nickel option makes sense. And then last guy I'd mentioned be Charles Demings one of the top non FBS guys this year. Stephen F. Austin. Yeah he's he was one of the more entertaining guys to talk to this throughout the process because he's just got a really fun story the way he came out and kind of bet on himself every step of the way. Another guy that could have transferred up, decided to stay put. You know he impressed at the combine. He was a 441 guy in the 40 but has has some pretty good tape as well.
- [90:43]
A
Well not just one but also but two Toledo corners also coming out in this draft, Avery Smith and Andre Fuller.
- [90:52]
B
So I think both will be drafted. So I think we'll have three Toledo DBs drafted this year.
- [90:57]
A
Don't be shocked when most of Toledo's secondary joins the NFL at the end of April. That's that's a great spot to leave it. Stephen A, Stephen F, Austin and Toledo. That's what you would expect from the Beast, which will be out the next time we talk to y'. All. It will finally be here. Dane Dane's too professional to celebrate, but I'm excited for him and I can't wait to go through the Beast next week. We'll have a great episode planned for y' all as we can finally get our hands on the best draft guide in the industry. Until then, we appreciate y' all so much. We will talk to you next time. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or Follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like comment and leave a rating. We'll see you next time. Familiar de cancer de colon PI de la preba de cologarda tu medico paramas informacion en Espanol. Visit cologuard pun.com/preva when you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Par le tu francais hablas espanol parl italiano. If you've used Babel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acasta spelled B A B-B-E-L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply.