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- [00:00]
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Robert Mays
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- [01:22]
Robert Mays
welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Last year we did a series of shows. Four different shows with all 32 teams broken up into four different buckets and we decided if we wanted to buy or sell every single off season in the NFL. I loved doing those and we're doing them again. So four different shows, all 32 teams, eight teams in each show. Today we are starting with the rebuilding teams. So the teams at the bottom. Most of these buckets are going to be broken up by super bowl odds. So these are the teams at the bottom of those odds. If you have issues with how we've distributed the teams, take it up with the people in Las Vegas or whoever your local sports book is. But we're going to dig into this exercise the exact same way we did last year. Really enjoy just kind of taking a step back and taking all of these off seasons in totality. Doing it with Dave Hellman Today, let's dig into the rebuilding teams and buying or selling their off seasons right.
- [02:23]
Derek
Foreign.
- [02:25]
Robert Mays
I'm very excited to start this series of shows again. I loved doing this last offseason around this same time. Just a good way to kind of try to get your arms around what teams have done in combination coaching, hires, free agency and the draft. So we're talking off seasons in totality today, Dave. And we're doing the rebuilding teams as our first one of these four buckets.
- [02:48]
Derek
Call me a hipster, call me a hopeless romantic, but I am even more excited to do the rebuilding teams like the quote, unquote bad teams. It's more interesting to me, like we have all off season and all season to argue about who's going to win the super bowl, but this is the time of the year where the the teams at the back of the pack are just as interesting and exciting to me as as the, you know, contenders.
- [03:11]
Robert Mays
I said this on the last show. These are bucketed almost entirely by super bowl odds. There will be a couple we fudge on a little bit later. I'll see if you guys can spot them as we bucket the teams. We'll do those for a reason, but almost excl these four collections of teams over these four shows, eight teams per show, are going to be done just based on super bowl odds. And I think naturally, as you look at the each subsection of teams, it does make sense and I think this group is correct for this rebuilding teams, quote, unquote.
- [03:39]
Derek
I don't think we have an issue here, but there's definitely going to be three or four teams over the course of the series where we probably get some feedback about why they're where they are and we'll say it's the odds. Leave us alone, please.
- [03:51]
Robert Mays
But it won't always be. All right, let's dig into these eight teams. These are in no particular order, so they may be in a different order in your notes, but this is just kind of how we had them grouped. Let's start with the New York Jets. Okay, the New York jets off season, kind of as a quick overview, hired Frank, fired most of their offense, fired most of their coaching staff. Brought in Frank Reich as the offensive coordinator. Brian Duker is the defensive coordinator. Traded Jermaine Johnson, traded for Gino Breeze. Hall back on the tag. Joseph Osai, David Anamada, Demario Davis Kingsley Enigmari and free agency in the draft. David Bailey, Kenyan Sadiq, Omar Cooper Jr. D' Angelo Pons were the big moves for the New York jets in the first couple rounds. Are you buying or selling the New York jets off season?
- [04:35]
Derek
I'm buying it and I'll try to explain why with a question for you. What would the jets have to do to offset the excitement that you feel about the war chest that they've accumulated for 2027? Because I equate it to a team, not a team. I equate it to A person who is in the very back of the pack at Mario Kart, but they have the lightning bolt and you're just like, oh my God, they're terrible, but they have the lightning bolt. Who knows what hell's gonna break loose once they use that. That's how I feel about having three first round draft picks in 2027.
- [05:08]
Robert Mays
My only problem with that analogy is, you know, the tangible effect of the lightning bolt. You do not know the tangible impact of the three first round picks the New York jets have.
- [05:16]
Derek
But until they get made, then they can be as good as I be and that's exciting.
- [05:23]
Robert Mays
This was one of the harder ones to answer. I landed on this hedging. I'm buying the roster construction. I can get behind the players that the jets have added this off season and the positions that they've added them at. I even like something like the Jermaine Johnson trade for Tavandre Sweat. Like I think Tavandre Sweat right now. If I were trying to pin down who is a better asset, him or Jermaine Johnson, I think I'd rather have devondre Sweat. You have more cost controlled years. I think Jermaine Johnson's injury history is absolutely something that's worth bringing up. I think the Titans make that trade in part because Robert Salas coming in, he wants his guys at those positions. Tandra Sweat is a product of a different regime. I think that's a good way to find value. I think the jets did a good job of doing that. The Geno trade I think is the right sort of like potentially stabilizing move for free Demario Davis as like a we need an adult on defense to kind of reset this thing. Somebody that can be at the center of who we want to be on that side of the ball. And I completely understand. I liked Kingsley Anik Barre as a role player type of signing for a lot of different teams in this free agent class. And then you look at what happened in the draft, we can talk about the Kenyon Sadiq, Omar Cooper Jr. Thing. I think I've arrived in a place where even if this offensive staff isn't the right one to get the most out of this collection of guys. I like adding those two players because I think Omar Cooper Jr. Has a little bit more inside outside than he showed at Indiana in 2025 specifically. And and so I like how the jets have attacked this off season from a player acquisition standpoint and they have three first round picks next year. I'm buying all that. I'm selling the coaching staff as hard as I could possibly sell it.
- [06:59]
Derek
How much does that scare you? Because I think. I think that's the exact right way to look at it. And if I'm not buying in on the jets, which I agree with everything you just said, and like, even if you don't think Kenyan Sadiq should have been the pick at 16, getting Cooper at 30 and just sort of having those two things in totality, I'm fine with that. Even if you like Casey Concepcion better than Omar Cooper Jr. Getting both of those players, the way they've put this roster together doesn't bother me at all. But what does the future hold for the coaching staff? And how much does that change your plans moving forward? Is the thing that gives me the biggest pause with the Jets. And if it does, let's say if. If it goes incredibly poorly in year two of Aaron Glenn, how quickly are you ripping that band aid off? Should you have done it ahead of time? How much does that change the decisions that you've already made? Like, are you bringing in guys that are like, I wish I had Arvell Reese and. And not a 58 cornerback as a top 50 pick, but that cat's already out of the bag. Or does Aaron Glenn. Let's. Let's paint this optimistically. Does Aaron Glenn do a good enough job that he stays on for a year three, where he is now part of the process to go get a quarterback? And how good do you feel about that prospect? And that's what worries me about where the jets are more so than their roster, which for the most part, I like.
- [08:25]
Robert Mays
It's just a. I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where they're good enough for him to be back next year. I kind of think this is like a lame duck year. And I think the guys they hired even point to that a little bit. Like what Frank Reich has been as a play caller his last two stops, it's been really bad. Like, there's just no way around that. Like, I loved those Frank Reich Colts teams to a point that it was a meme on the show. Like, how much we talked about those teams in like 2019 and 2020. And when Andrew Walk, you know, kind of had that resurgent year in 2018. I love those teams. I really, really did. And then when he went that the last year he was in Indianapolis, the bottom fell out and then they went to Carolina and it was the exact same thing all over again. And so I think them landing on Frank Reich at the end of that entire process and then Turning over as much of the coaching staff as they did. It's just hard for me to see a lot of good stuff waiting on the other side of all of that change. And so right or wrong, I just kind of am at a point where I've written that group off in my mind and I just think that they're going to be moving on after this season. That that's just where I sit with it. I know that's probably unfair.
- [09:33]
Derek
How do you feel about Darren Mugie's job security?
- [09:35]
Robert Mays
I think he has job security. I think for all the reasons that we said and the fact that you've assembled this war chest of picks, I think you're in a spot where no matter what happens this season, if you get enough flashes from all the guys you drafted, sometimes we can be in a place. This is the Joe Shane situation where these guys hang around for reasons that feel unwarranted. And with Mugi, there just hasn't been enough bad to go along with the all of the assets he's accumulated for me to get to the end of the season and be like the process has been wrong and how they've acquired the players. I don't even how could you possibly say that at this point? And so I think he's probably safe and I think they're probably in the coaching market next year. And when you look at the way that the roster is currently built, I'd feel okay about that. Like I kind of think that I'll feel okay about the trajectory of the jets next year. Even if they're bad enough for the coaching staff to get fired.
- [10:27]
Derek
I think most people would say that picks in very few, except with very few exceptions, like if you had a really difference making head coach, but for the most part people would take the picks over the coach. Right. So we didn't know the jets were going to make three first round picks going into this draft, but they did and they have three next year. We don't know if they'll make a full six because maybe they trade some of those assets to go get a quarterback next year, but you're going to make.
- [10:54]
Robert Mays
They may not have to fair. Maybe picking in the top three.
- [10:58]
Derek
All right, well let, let's just bear that out then and say they make six first round picks over two years. Does it bother you at all that they could invest that sort of capital in their roster in the midst of a coaching change? And like I said, guys who you would think at least had some kind of voice in bringing talent into the team go away over a one year span. Like I, I brought up the Angelo Pons on purpose because he's such a unique player and people talk about how Aaron Glenn sees him himself and he is a very good player. I like d' Angelo Ponds, but he is a perfect example of a guy where Aaron Glenn is like, this is my guy and the next coach is like, what are we going to do with him? That doesn't fit what I'm trying to do here at all. And so those are the types of. And, and Pons was not a first round pick. I get that. But it's still a top 50 pick. And so I worry about not having that continuity. And we've talked about this a lot over the last couple years. It feels harsh to me. But once that even creeps into your mind, wouldn't you rather just start over and guarantee yourself that sort of continuity where you're not potentially patching things together midstream?
- [12:02]
Robert Mays
Yes. Like if it were up to me and I could go back and do it all over again. I think that's a move that you do make. I can understand why they wouldn't. Because it's a tough, tough optics thing to fire another head coach after one year. Even if it is the right thing to do. I think the hope is with all of this capital that you have and the fact that you have three next year, and even if there may be a little bit of misalignment in how you invested those previous resources, you get to a place next year where there's still enough talent on the roster for this to be an attractive place. You can hire the right coach, he can pull it all together. Right. Like that. That to me is always what this is about. Even if there's like, I don't know if you have the exact vision for this guy. If you have the requisite amount of talent and you hire the right coach, those are the two most important things. And I do think both of those things are on the table for this team in the next calendar year.
- [12:48]
Derek
The flip side of that is I feel really good about the two offensive tackles. If even, let's just say Cooper and Sadiq are like a half and half. So if you have like two and a half pass catchers, you feel good about bookend offensive tackles, some defensive pieces and three first round picks. This should be an appealing job for a head coach. Even with the warts of jets ownership, like even with all of those problems that you are aware of going into it, that should be an appealing place for a coach to want to go and say I'm going to have a chance to get a quarterback of the future and then some. So if, if that's where you wind up, if it doesn't go well with Aaron Glenn, that should still be a pretty appealing place.
- [13:34]
Robert Mays
And even when you look at the potential building block pieces they'll have in next year and beyond, talk about the two tackles they drafted David Bailey with the second overall pick. Garrett Wilson's still on the roster. Like he's the only one left. But Garrett Wilson is standing there like Will Smith, looking around the living room being like everyone else is gone and
- [13:49]
Derek
Derek is not there. Derek's not here to say Garrett Wilson's not that good. So I can say he's awesome. Garrett. Garrett Wilson's the man.
- [13:56]
Robert Mays
You've addressed a lot of premium positions. You've addressed essentially all the premium positions you need to find in the first round to kind of set yourself up over the next couple years. And so I think for as awful as this has been for the jets over the last few years, the fact that this team has the hall they did in free agent or in the draft this year has the war chest they have next year, plus $150 million in cap space, I think it's an okay place to be if you're the New York Jets. Considering what sort of quagmire this looked like recently.
- [14:24]
Derek
I buy the totality of the vision for the jets, warts and all.
- [14:29]
Robert Mays
Even.
- [14:29]
Derek
Even if they have to fire their head coach. Even if some of these picks don't work out. Like I said, I mean, having the three first round picks in your back pocket, it's hard to hate on that, no matter what you're going to go through this year. And maybe what they go through this year is better than people expect. So yeah, I'm buying it.
- [14:45]
Robert Mays
I think based on the players themselves. Like, if you look at the offense, I think the offensive line is often a floor lifter for teams. We'll see what Geno looks like in a different situation than he was with the Raiders last year. Again, there are requisite pass catching options. This, to me, just when we have these offensive ecosystems that are bottomed out, we see how detrimental that is, no matter what sort of talent you have on the roster. And I just have this lingering worry that the jets under Frank Reich might be one of those offenses this year.
- [15:14]
Derek
Let's be blunt about it.
- [15:15]
Robert Mays
I hope I'm wrong.
- [15:16]
Derek
They're either going to be pleasantly surprising and we get one more ride of good Geno, or you don't have to worry about using those extra picks to go get a quarterback. And you'll be picking, if not number one, then top three. And it might suck to get there, but you might wind up being really happy about it by the time January rolls around. If this quarterback class pans out, if
- [15:37]
Robert Mays
David Bailey has eight sacks, Omar Cooper Jr and Kenyan Sadiq look like players. D' Angelo Pons becomes one of those athletic football show demon like little, little, you know, pet cats and you win four games. I think that's a completely fine outcome for the New York Jets.
- [15:51]
Derek
I agree.
- [15:52]
Robert Mays
Let's get to the next one here. The Cleveland Browns hired Todd Monkin as their head coach, Mike Rutenberg as their defensive coordinator. Their most of their big moves in terms of player acquisition this spring. Lineman Zion Johnson 3 years 50. Elton Jenkins on a 2 year deal traded for Titus Howard in the draft. I mean would take an hour to list off all the picks but Spencer Fano, Casey Concepcion, denzel Boston, Manuel McNeil, Warren Austin Barber were a majority of the big picks that the Browns made. Are you buying or selling the 2026 Cleveland Browns off season?
- [16:22]
Derek
Browns fans are going to hate to hear this because I'm buying it to the degree that I'm going to turn around and say what if this works so well that the Browns are screwing themselves out of being in position for the quarterback that they.
- [16:35]
Robert Mays
I think that's a little bit far.
- [16:38]
Derek
How? How far? Like I'm not trying to pitch the Browns as a fringe playoff team, but what if the Browns roster is good enough to play its way out of like picking top two or top three in the NFL draft and I think this is worth pointing out. Robert, we just talked about how valuable it is for the jets to have three first round picks in their back pocket. The Browns aren't hoarding resources as of right now. The Browns just have their picks in next year's draft. They have some extra day three stuff which could help them do some maneuvering. But if you're a New York jets fan, you're saying come hell or high water, we'll have the resources we need to trade up for a quarterback in next year's draft. As long as we don't make the playoffs, the Browns, that is not a guarantee with the capital that you have available. And so this is a bit of a projection. But if I'm a Browns fan, how do you not look at the rookie class last year and how amazing they were and be like okay, the odds that this year's class is going to be that good again are not great, but with the resources that they spent. I mean Fano concepcion, Boston, Emmanuel McNeil Warren as a mid second round pick is incredible value. I mean if even if even just one or two of those guys are at the level of Carson Schlesinger or Harold Fannin or Quinshon Judkins, this could be a pretty feisty team. Am I crazy for thinking that? And yes, when I fine. Why? Why?
- [18:09]
Robert Mays
Because I think the ceiling is just still incredibly low on offense even if the floor is higher because of these pieces. Where do you I want you to think right now about how you conceive of the New Orleans Saints and how excited and optimistic you are about the New Orleans Saints based on what the offense looked like in the back half of last year.
- [18:26]
Derek
Sure.
- [18:27]
Robert Mays
Just think about it in your mind. Where do you think the Saints finished in offensive DVOA last season?
- [18:31]
Derek
Oh gosh, probably like 24th, 27th. Okay.
- [18:35]
Robert Mays
Yeah, that's my point is that I
- [18:37]
Derek
think the Saints played their way out of not that this was the draft to do that anyway, but the Saints were good enough that drafting a quarterback quarterback wouldn't have been a possibility for them.
- [18:46]
Robert Mays
I think if you pick in the top 10, if you have the 8th overall pick in the way that the Saints did, you have the potential to maneuver a little bit and find a guy.
- [18:54]
Derek
I I think that how many quarterbacks are available and how high do you have to go?
- [18:58]
Robert Mays
I think based on my understanding of the quarterback class, there might be three or four of them. Right. It might feel like the 2024.
- [19:04]
Derek
With love and respect, we said that heading into 2025 and we came away with one and a half.
- [19:10]
Robert Mays
But you feel great about the Saints and they're picking eighth. There is a chance we finish one or two rungs down from that as the Browns and they're picking third overall in this draft and that those that's not mutually exclusive from you feeling really good about the hole they had in the draft. Rookies can only be so impactful. I think it's going to be a transition for Spencer Fano moving back over to the left side to play left tackle. I like Casey Concepcion and Denzel Boston, but I think that they're both like pieces of a bigger, greater offense. Like I'm really excited about what the Browns did. I don't think that this draft class and laughter at last draft class when you combine it by projecting the level of quarterback play the Cleveland Browns are likely going to get in 2026 is going to be enough to win them enough games to be on the outside looking in of anything.
- [19:58]
Derek
That's the only thing that gives me pause.
- [19:59]
Robert Mays
The only thing is the quarterback. Yeah.
- [20:01]
Derek
Yes. Well, yeah, it is.
- [20:04]
Robert Mays
It is.
- [20:05]
Derek
It is that bad.
- [20:05]
Robert Mays
That's where I sit with it. It's like, even if all of this other stuff comes together, what is the realistic ceiling if your quarterback room is some combination of 20, 26 to Sean Watson and Shador Sanders?
- [20:17]
Derek
But see, here's. Here's the thing, and I just. I think you and I are looking at this with slightly different standards of. Of execution.
- [20:27]
Robert Mays
I want to be clear about this before we keep going down this road where I seem really pessimistic. I'm wholeheartedly buying the Cleveland Browns offseason, like, wholeheartedly buying it. I'm actually very excited about it. I want that on the record before we keep going down this path.
- [20:41]
Derek
Clearly, I'm buying it too.
- [20:43]
Robert Mays
Sure. But I think that I've, like, played the villain here when in actuality, I thought I was going to be the more enthusiastic party here as we were talking about the Browns.
- [20:51]
Derek
But see, here's. Here's my point is you think the Browns have to meet this high bar to play their way out of a quarterback. They were abysmal to watch last year and they finished sixth. They picked sixth in the draft before they traded back for Spencer Fano. I mean, it can get crowded up there at the top. They're going to wind up, for one reason or another, being some dog shit teams. And if the Browns draft class this year is half as good as it was last year, you combine that with a defense that's already amazing. Miles Garrett still plays there last time I checked. My point is just not. My point is not that the Browns are going to be picking 15th. It's that the Browns could be picking fifth in a year where there are. They don't have that much capital to move up. And it would be amazing for us. As somebody who makes draft content. I hope there are five quarterbacks, but you can't bank on that right now. And that's what gives me a little bit of existential dread.
- [21:46]
Robert Mays
I think you're just getting way ahead of yourself.
- [21:51]
Derek
I can do that.
- [21:52]
Robert Mays
I think that even if I. I can't, you can't be in a position where you're like, man, we might have added too much young cost control talent to the team. Maybe we won't be in position to draft the quarterback next year.
- [22:03]
Derek
I think to be. To be fair, we're. Yeah, I'm So far out over my skis. And this is all a roundabout way of saying I love the Browns off season. I think they are, they're following the ideal blueprint of laying the foundation for a quality roster for a quarterback to then step into. And, and that's exactly my thought.
- [22:24]
Robert Mays
That's exactly my thought.
- [22:25]
Derek
I'm just, I, I want for them to find that quarterback so badly that I hope they're just not doing too good of a job. I say that tongue in cheek, but you never know. You never know what's going to be available to you when the next draft class finally rolls around and you see how it all lays out. That's my only concern.
- [22:43]
Robert Mays
I really like how they approached this offseason in this draft specifically. We talked a lot about the Browns draft. Some of it is colored by the fact that I like the players that they drafted. But I think you could absolutely.
- [22:52]
Derek
I think between the two, between the two of us, they drafted like five players that we absolutely love.
- [22:57]
Robert Mays
And I think it's, you know, we, we do this sometimes too often. We're like, Emmanuel Warren is supposed to be a first round pick. He falls to the second round. Now he's suddenly the best pick in the draft. But I think the process positionally of who they went for, how they compliment one another, I can really get on board with this. The offensive line acquisitions, the veteran offensive line acquisitions. It feels like the Kirkland brand of what the Bears did last year. Like it's. You're getting a discount because it's the generic brand. But I can understand what they were doing, like design Johnson contract. It's not a cheap deal, but when you look at where it falls in overall guard contracts, it's less than Will Fries and Jonah Jackson got last year. It's more than Ben Powers and John Running got a couple years ago. Like it makes sense. As a second contract player, you're hoping his best football is in front of him. The Ellen Jenkins contract is a little worrying to me. Like $12 million for a guy who, his best position is not center. You're projecting him to play there. He was hurt last year, that one. I think that I'm, I worry about that looking good a year from now. But the Titus Howard one, kind of similar, you're paying a premium on that extension. It's a top seven mark, I think, for right tackles in terms of aav. But you've protected yourself with those moves and I think protecting yourself over a two year span, which is what they've done because all of those moves and all of those contracts take you into 2027 when you will hopefully be dropping a quarterback into it. And so even if you're paying a little bit of a sticker price for all of those guys, I think the multi year plan in terms of why you need them makes sense to me.
- [24:23]
Derek
It's a classic case of we spent a year looking at the Browns offensive line with all the expiring contracts and the aging players and we're just like, whoa, who's going to play offensive line for this team? They don't have one. And now they have a whole offensive line of guys who have played NFL football and some of them well at times. But it's easy to just look at that and be like, oh, it'll definitely be better. That is certainly not a guarantee. Even if it looks considering where they
- [24:51]
Robert Mays
were, I don't even think that was the bar though. I don't think it would. I don't think it definitely needs to be better for them to accomplish what they want to. I think it's a. Is this a workable group of offensive linemen both now and maybe one year into the future? I think you can squint and say
- [25:03]
Derek
yes, I feel okay about the answer to that. Yeah. Compared to where they were in January and the work that they had to do, I think they, they did that work admirably.
- [25:13]
Robert Mays
The Monken part of this, I'm into it like it's, he's a weird choice. He. It's my. You can only say so I, I don't. You don't want to, you don't want to talk too much about like personality and fit and things like that before a guy gets into the chair because you don't always know. And I think part of my curiosity about the Todd Monk and hire is just that personality wise he is kind of a strange choice as an NFL head coach. And then he im showed you why and every single time he's got in front of a microphone. But it's made me very interested in what's going to happen with this.
- [25:49]
Derek
I kind of love it.
- [25:50]
Robert Mays
I'm into it.
- [25:51]
Derek
He says something amusing and interesting every three weeks and I think it could
- [25:54]
Robert Mays
work out like again the comparison that I made in terms of like the best case scenario for this was something like the Bruce Arians higher in Arizona. And I do think that there is a path where it looks like that. And when you compare him to all the other offensive coaches, you know, there this head coaching cycle and we could have said this about the jets, there are A lot of big names available. There are a lot of guys that people wanted to chase. The John Harbaughs of the world. Kevin Stefanski. I think the Browns wanted an offensive minded head coach. And this group of coaches outside of Kevin Stefanski was a down year for that sort of archetype compared to like what we had last year with Ben Johnson and Liam Cohen. And so them not going with like the super young guy, like a Yudinsky, and going with a guy like Todd Monken, I think is an okay place to land in this coaching cycle specifically. And if it doesn't work out, if this is just an like another David Cully situation, fine, then you're in the market again next year. It just like, I think that the variance of what Todd Monkin can be is a completely okay thing for a team that really is a year away from making the most important decisions it's going to make.
- [26:58]
Derek
We pinned it from the jump that the Browns job would be one that you're probably not attracting the best candidates possible. You might have to hire a coach and be willing to part with him in two, maybe even one year. Todd Monken was one of the last guys hired in this cycle. So I think everybody realized that ahead of time. And now it's. I mean, it's pure upside. Like he could be pleasantly surprising and he's had success at most of his stops as a play caller. So the quarterback gives me pause. I don't. I don't know exactly how good that's going to look, but I'm interested.
- [27:34]
Robert Mays
They're picking like 23rd overall based on how you're projecting the Browns here.
- [27:37]
Derek
See, I won't let you put words in my mouth. All I said was they could be good enough to play their way out of a quarterback, which just means not picking in the top three.
- [27:47]
Robert Mays
So here, you started with this. And I was planning to come all the way around to this. In my notes, it says, I think that the Browns are going to be in the market for a quarterback next year. Is there a chance that they don't have enough draft capital to feel comfortable?
- [28:01]
Derek
Oh. So I just cannonballed in with the point that you were going to make at the end.
- [28:05]
Robert Mays
So what I was going to come all the way back around to is the last point. If you are a team that feels like we have some financial levers that we can pull, we think that we're close. I'd call the Browns on June 5th and see what it would take to get Miles Garrett.
- [28:25]
Derek
Mm, that's fun.
- [28:27]
Robert Mays
Because I do think that for all of this to come together, they probably need to be in a spot where they feel comfortable in their ability to get a quarterback in 2027. Do you feel comfortable without extra draft capital?
- [28:39]
Derek
If I'm the Browns, not really.
- [28:43]
Robert Mays
And that would be a chance for you to get it.
- [28:44]
Derek
Although. Okay, let's. We should at least talk about it a little bit. I know the Browns quarterback situation is radioactive for like 8, 18 reasons.
- [28:52]
Robert Mays
I've just chosen not to engage with it because I don't think there's like anything worthwhile at the end of that road.
- [28:57]
Derek
I'm curious though, because I mean there's so much smoke coming out of the Browns facility that DeSean Watson might be the starting quarterback this year. And my gut instinct is to say no matter what your opinion of Shadur Sanders is, isn't it more interesting and more fun to let the young quarterback who a lot of people thought more highly of than a 5th round pick take this and run with it and the offensive line is retooled. You got some receivers. See what Shadur Sanders could do or desean Watson was the worst quarterback by epa per play in the NFL. Worse than Will Levis and Anthony Richardson last time he was healthy enough to start. Is starting DeSean Watson an effort by the Browns to make sure they don't play their way out of a quarterback?
- [29:47]
Robert Mays
Like, I mean that's, that's a fun galaxy brain thought.
- [29:49]
Derek
That sounds actually harsh. A lot like I won't be gaslit into forgetting how bad it was before he got hurt in 2024.
- [29:58]
Robert Mays
My thing is like he's not going to be on the team next year anyway, right? Who gives a like like the idea? I am so done with the desean Watson experience. Like I, I, I could not be less interested in watching him play quarterback for another year.
- [30:11]
Derek
What if? Oh, neither am I. But what if. What if dese final act in Cleveland
- [30:17]
Robert Mays
secured them a quarterback in 2027? This is the draft worth it.
- [30:21]
Derek
This is one of the worst decisions that has ever been made in the NFL. But if you can help us find a quarterback in 2027. Not going to call it even, but you're salvaging something. Maybe.
- [30:32]
Robert Mays
Well, think about it now. If you don't have to trade Miles Garrett and you have the number one overall pick in a way you can twist that into we gained at least an extra first round pick by playing desean Watson this year. We got one of them back.
- [30:45]
Derek
Would you rather, would you rather watch Ridiculous conversation Would you rather watch Desean Watson start at quarterback for 13 weeks or trade Miles Garrett.
- [30:56]
Robert Mays
Probably watch Deshaun Watts play quarterback 13
- [30:58]
Derek
weeks and that might be the unpleasant calculus happening in the Browns facility. I don't know that, but that's where my head goes. Cause like if you're really just trying to find out the most about your roster, I would start Shadur Sanders. But if I'm trying to make sure that I can find my way to a quarterback next spring, DeSean Watson might be might be the right path to take.
- [31:20]
Robert Mays
I don't know to put a button on this. I think the whole basis of feeling decent about this Browns off season in 2027. In week one of 2027, there is a possibility all of these players are going to be under contract, that your starting offense is Jerry Judy, Denzel Boston, Casey Concepcion, Spencer Fano, Zion Johnson, Elton Jenkins, Austin Barber playing guard, who you drafted in the third round, Titus Howard at right tackle, Harold Fan and Quitshot Juggins. Those are your 10 other starters. That's a reasonable place to put a quarterback in 2027. And I think if you're the Browns, that's about as good as you could have hoped for it.
- [31:53]
Derek
I so firmly buy their off season to the point that I'm worried about what it could mean for 2027.
- [32:00]
Robert Mays
And I'm just worried that I feel this good about it because clearly I'm missing something. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and chat about a team that I think this might be divisive.
- [32:09]
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- [36:02]
Robert Mays
The Tennessee Titans off season hire Robert Salah hired Brian Dable hire Gus Bradley to be their defensive coordinator. Big money contracts for Wandell Robinson, John Franklin Myers, Alante Taylor, Cordell Flot traded to Andre Sweat for Jermaine Johnson essentially in the draft. Their big haul here is Carnell Tate, Keldrick Falk, Anthony Hill. They didn't actually have any other third or fourth round picks to pick in the fifth round after those three.
- [36:26]
Derek
Well, they traded up for Keldrick, they
- [36:28]
Robert Mays
gave away a couple and they traded up for Anthony Hill, I believe. Yeah.
- [36:30]
Derek
Yeah.
- [36:30]
Robert Mays
So to move up from 35 to 31, there was a three spot swap in the third round. But then in the form the fourth to fifth round they gave away one on one and they got back 165. So that's a 64 pick drop. So that, that's significant and that's why they didn't pick until the fifth round. So are you buying or selling the Tennessee Titans off season?
- [36:51]
Derek
You made a Lord of the Rings reference on the show earlier this week and it made an impression on me and I was looking through, I was looking through the Titans off season today, getting ready for this show and I was looking at all their moves and I said this seems like wisdom but for the warning in my heart. Just like Frodo Baggins at the end of the Fellowship of the Ring. And that's, that's how I feel about the Titans. I, I'm a fan of Cam Ward. I want, I want to like it more than I do.
- [37:22]
Robert Mays
I'm surprised that you landed here.
- [37:24]
Derek
I'm. I want to like it more than I do.
- [37:26]
Robert Mays
I. We're. We're kind of in lockstep about this and I'm a little bit surpr. I. I thought this would be a point of contention.
- [37:31]
Derek
Okay, well, I'll. Let me, let me start with what I do like. I really do like the defensive overhaul. I actually shockingly, considering they hired Robert Salah and that's his forte, I like what they've done on the defensive side of the ball, like you know, D or signing John Franklin Myers trading for Jermaine Johnson, who Robert Salah obviously knows really well. You add that with Jeffrey Simmons. Keldrick Falk is a guy I liked a lot and even if he doesn't have it all put together as a pass rusher right away, that's a guy who A, he can help you quickly at least as a run defender and B, what a great place to learn how to play. On the defensive lineman with Robert Sala and I think is White Cotton. Aaron White Cotton landed in Tennessee too, didn't he? Believe so. So just the defensive line coach if, if you didn't know that he was
- [38:19]
Robert Mays
in Dallas last year.
- [38:20]
Derek
Yeah. So just a phenomenal place and comes from that world.
- [38:23]
Robert Mays
Yes, from the jets world.
- [38:23]
Derek
Phenomenal place for a young defensive lineman to learn. They broug, you know, a reunion with Solomon Thomas. They brought him over from Dallas as well. I like the draft picks. It's a lot of money to spend on cornerback between Alante Taylor and Cordell Flat. But if the front is as good as I think it could be, I, I, I see the vision here. Like I like what the Titans have done on the defensive side of the ball and then on you don't like it so you don't even agree with me there.
- [38:50]
Robert Mays
I, I just think that who are, who's like the difference making move they made up front. I like John Franklin Myers. John Franklin Myers is a really good piece of a good defensive line. John Franklin Myers on his last deal made seven and a half million dollars. They just paid John Franklin Myers 21 million dollars a year going into his age 30 season. I, I like the idea of Keldrick Falk. I think Keldrick Falk is a worthwhile swing at 31. He is an idea at this point. Jermaine Johnson, who played two games two years ago and granted was coming off of injury last year, had three and a half sacks and 31 pressures in 13 games last year.
- [39:26]
Derek
Here, here's my rebuttal. They didn't add a difference maker. They added several solid pieces to a gravitational sort of player in Jeffrey Simmons. And I, that's fair. I do think he is that that's fair.
- [39:38]
Robert Mays
I just think that this is a lot of change and a lot of investment across the entire defense. For me to walk away from it being like, okay, I mean that's where
- [39:47]
Derek
the Titans have been for the last two or three years.
- [39:49]
Robert Mays
And that's, that's part of my problem here is that this feels sort of similar to other Titans off seasons where they throw around all these resources and we're like, yeah. And then you actually look at it and like, how much better are they really? And I think that they remade the defense in the image of the defensive coach. I don't know how much better certain parts of this defense actually are. I think it could be. I just think that I'm kind of in wait and see mode about what the actual impact of this moves looks like in totality.
- [40:20]
Derek
I like the front a lot. And if you have a good front, I think it can make everything else look a hell of a lot better. Like Anthony Hill, I think is, is a young, ascending player who I, I, I don't expect him to like, hit the ground running. But you still have Cody Barton there. I was a little surprised. I thought, I thought the Titans would spend a draft pick in the secondary. Somewhere along the line they spent $150
- [40:44]
Robert Mays
million to fix it. Hopefully they don't have to.
- [40:46]
Derek
That's my point. They spent all that money on free agents. So it's, it's not amazing. But I, I think this, I think this is a nice starting point. And really a lot of my optimism comes from the fact that I think the world of Jeffrey Simmons and putting a decent supporting cast around him, I think can pay dividends. I think he is a tremendously underrated player, even as a guy that everybody is aware of.
- [41:12]
Robert Mays
Do you know, have you ever done this where you'll buy something online and you take a long look at the return policy before you buy it, knowing that it might be something you send back, like you're truly just buying it to try it on?
- [41:22]
Derek
Honestly, no. I hate returning things.
- [41:25]
Robert Mays
Okay.
- [41:25]
Derek
So this is probably just something that
- [41:28]
Robert Mays
other men have ever done. I buy too many clothes, but I do this every once in a while. There are a few brick and mortar stores in 2026. Kind of how it goes.
- [41:34]
Derek
Yes.
- [41:35]
Robert Mays
There are times where I'll buy something be like I'm kind of half into this. That's how I feel about the Titans. It's not that I'm like full selling what they did this offseason. I'm just in wait and see mode on a lot of this stuff. I think that the personnel decision are that and I'm also in a spot where are we just going to like memory hole the Robert Sala jets experience Like Robert Sal is 20 and 36 as a head coach. Brian D. Brian D. Was a worthwhile hire by the Giants and I think that I understand why Brian D. Was a sought after offensive coordinator in this cycle. Over the past three seasons combined, the New York Giants were 28th in EPA per play. Brian Dable as the play caller.
- [42:10]
Derek
So I like the defense more than you do. That's fine. And I would argue Robert Sala's jets defenses for the most part were great.
- [42:17]
Robert Mays
They were great. They were great.
- [42:19]
Derek
So, and some of that is giving the benefit of the doubt to a guy that I think has earned it. And what Robert Sala did with the Niners defense last year, considering all of the losses to injury, I thought was incredibly impressive. The other side of this is, is what gives me pause and it's, it's tempting to see that they drafted a receiver in the top five, a player that we both like and Carnell Tate and get excited about that. And, and they've invested on the offensive line, not this off season. And, and I, I sit here and I'm like wait, what does this mean? Like is this actually good enough? And to your point, this is a fun thing that I always like to do. We've joked about it before. Brian Dable is the OC in Tennessee now and I'm looking through this and I'm just like few too many Giants for my taste. Why why does Brian D Get this much influence on who's playing for the Titans?
- [43:14]
Robert Mays
When you finish 28th combined in EPA per player over the last three years to go back and chase those players,
- [43:18]
Derek
you understand that like I I'm just like okay, Daniel Bellinger, that's fine. Wait. Wandell Robinson. Ah, Austin Schlotman, who looks like he's going to be the starting center unless 6th round pick Pat Coogan can take his job just like we're we're going to the Giants. Well a lot for a team that wasn't a whole lot to brag about over the last few years.
- [43:37]
Robert Mays
We'll see when he wants to start practicing because summers are hot down in Nashville. I'm at least giving Kevin Zeitler a call scene what his where his head's at right now.
- [43:44]
Derek
I firmly think Kevin Zeitler will be on this team. I I, I know we can't guarantee that but, but reading the tea leaves that certainly seems likely and he's if he wants to wait is that just
- [43:53]
Robert Mays
vibes or did you do read that somewhere that it seems like they're circling a reunion?
- [43:57]
Derek
I that's yeah, no that's been reported that okay. It's at least possible.
- [44:01]
Robert Mays
All right, well that's at least possible because I I would like to see that happen. This is where I'm at. I I the one Robinson contract is like I don't know about that. I mentioned the Franco Myers thing. I like him as a player. He's making three times as much on this deal as he did with his last deal going into his age 30 season. I think there is a good chance one or both of the cornerback investments a year from now we get buyer's remorse about those. And so I get that they threw on a lot, threw around a lot of resources. I get that Robert Saleh is a guy who's coached good defenses in the past. Brian Dable was a sought after offensive coordinator in this cycle. I am open to the idea that all of these things can come together and the jets can look at a deeply competent team next year. In ute in year two of Cam Ward, I'm just firmly in wait and see mode. I'm like again, it's in the cart. I don't know if I'm going to keep it when it comes to buying or selling the Titans.
- [44:51]
Derek
Oh, that's a great analogy that I do do that. What I do if I'm not sure I want to buy something, I'll leave it in my cart for like three months where I'm just like, ah, not today.
- [45:01]
Robert Mays
Let's go with that. That's where I sit with it. It's a purchase that I am open to making, but I'm not all the way there.
- [45:07]
Derek
The Titans are the purchase, the reckless purchase that I want to make but I'm waiting for my tax refund to come in. I'm now I can do it.
- [45:16]
Robert Mays
I and I get I'm sure there are people screaming the jets were bad because the offense was bad. He has Cam Ward now. They never figured out the quarterback with the Jets. I'm totally open to that. I just think that we should acknowledge the fact that Robert sala has a 2036 record as a head coach and Brian Dable's offense is without Josh Allen for the most part. Other than a weird smoking mirrors year where they did some truly like bizarre shit to get to 10th overall in EPA per play that I had a lot of respect for in the moment. Brian Dable's offenses have been bad outside of the Josh Allen universe and so I just wanted to acknowledge all of that and the fact that I don't think they added that many difference making players in the veteran market this year as my points of skepticism about how much better and how much better off the Titans are.
- [46:01]
Derek
If you're looking at the totality of the Titans offense and you're legitimately excited, I think that's too optimistic.
- [46:10]
Robert Mays
Like you.
- [46:11]
Derek
You can be intrigued. You can, like Carnell Tate may, maybe Cam Ward really is just going to take that step where he can overcome some of that stuff. But just looking at what we know about the cast around him, it's fine. It's not bad, but it's not exciting.
- [46:29]
Robert Mays
This whole thing is, can we get Mike Vrabel, Right?
- [46:33]
Derek
Yeah, it's.
- [46:33]
Robert Mays
Can we get the Mike Vrabel effect in New England? Mike Vrabel was a very good coach for the Titans the first time around. That was not the case with Robert Saul. On the whole, when you're looking at the record, the results, all of that stuff that did not happen. And so I think that comparing those two and acknowledging that difference is an important part of setting the correct expectations for the Titans.
- [46:53]
Derek
Does Zeitler signing back on move the needle substantially for you?
- [46:58]
Robert Mays
No, because I feel the same way about the defense, where it's just like, okay, they'll be fine. And that's kind of how I feel about it.
- [47:03]
Derek
I want to be. I want to be more excited than I am. I'm going to. I'm just going to sit with this in my cart for a couple months and try to talk myself into it.
- [47:12]
Robert Mays
Probably talk about the Las Vegas Raiders. Clint Kubiak in as the head coach. Massive money for Tyler Linderbaum. Quiddy pay, Quay Walker, Nakobe Dean, Jalen Naylor brought in Kirk Cousins in the draft. We know what they did. Fernando Mendoza, number one, Traden Stukes, key Run Crawford, Trey Zun, and then Jermyn McCoy with the big swing at 100 1. Are you buying or selling the Raiders off season?
- [47:32]
Derek
How do you not buy a team that drafted the number one quarterback in the NFL, like, from where they were last year? And I would argue what they have in place for a young quarterback to step into, I think it's pretty solid. Like, I think. Do you though, for the team that just was the worst in the NFL, like the absolute worst. Remember the Tank bowl between the Giants and the Raiders?
- [47:56]
Robert Mays
I do. How much better you think the offensive infrastructure is, though, in terms of the talent surrounding him? Tyler Lindel Bomb is a good player. The this idea that Tyler Linderbaum is some massive cure all for everything you need on offense I think is a little bit overstated. Like, because he got paid $27 million because he was this prize in free agency. I think we may be overrating, like, the overall impact that Tyra Linderbaum can have for an offense.
- [48:20]
Derek
Even if Tyler Linderbaum's only the sixth or seventh best center in the NFL, like, doesn't just having that as some sort of stabilizing force count for something counts for something.
- [48:31]
Robert Mays
I'm not sure how much it counts for.
- [48:33]
Derek
Independent of that, like, I feel, I feel fine about the Raiders offensive line again, maybe I'm looking at that through the lens of of the fact that they were just the worst team in the NFL. But it was well documented by the end of last year. Coaching was a huge aspect of why the Raiders weren't better, clearly, and in particular on their offensive line. So if we feel better about the coaching infrastructure Clint Kubiak has done wonders
- [48:59]
Robert Mays
with he just did this.
- [49:00]
Derek
Yes.
- [49:00]
Robert Mays
He literally just did this exact thing where you're coming into a place where the bottom fell out of the offensive ecosystem and you're getting them back to a much, much healthier position. And the biggest impact of that is the offensive line look like a completely different unit with marginal additions. And that's exactly what the Seahawks did last year, and that's exactly what the Raiders did this offseason.
- [49:21]
Derek
I'll we argue about this all the time. It wasn't a huge sample size. It looked like he was doing it for the Saints, too, before their entire roster got hurt. So there's plenty of proof of concept here. You have we did a whole show earlier this week about how they need help at receiver. But but Brock Bowers and Ashton Jinty as guys who can help a young quarterback out is a decent place to start for a team that was so bad last year, like one year ago. They were atrocious. This is. This is a perfectly acceptable place for Fernando Mendoza to be.
- [49:57]
Robert Mays
I have no real issues.
- [49:58]
Derek
I'm not worried. I'm not concerned for his safety, which is like something we say about guys taken at the top of the draft sometimes.
- [50:05]
Robert Mays
I think that's fair. I think we still have a lot of questions about a couple of the starting offensive line spots. Like they drafted two guys in the third round last year that should compete to be this one of the starting guards and one of the starting tackles. Again, that's merely an idea. Overall, where I land with the Raiders is I don't have any active problems with any of the things that they did. I think a lot of them make sense. Even the hypothetical Max Crosby trade. I get why you wanted to do that in the moment. The way I land on this and this is kind of cheating. It's not that I'm selling the Raiders off season. It's that if the Raiders were a stock, I would be selling them right now because I think people are higher on the Raiders because they drafted Fernando Mendoza number one overall than you should be given the totality of their moves combined. Clint Kubiak did a really good job last year with the Seahawks. Clint Kubiak is a one year play caller in Seattle that I think there should be some questions about what he looks like as a head coach because I just don't think we know and so I just don't think. And you look at the staff that he has, like there's a lot of lifers on there who haven't been in those roles recently. Like Rick Denison is the offensive line coach. I'm open to the idea of this working out. I just think that the idea like the notion that it's automatically going to be so much better there. I just don't think I can get there quite yet. And so while I do, again it's not that I actively disagree with anything that they did. I just think people overall are higher on the Raiders potential than I am them. And so if they were stock I would be selling them because I think it's a little bit overvalued. I think I don't, I don't do stocks by the way. That may be how stocks work. I'm not sure.
- [51:34]
Derek
Two guys who know nothing about the stock market talking about buying and selling. I think you just can't forget how abysmal it was.
- [51:42]
Robert Mays
Yes.
- [51:42]
Derek
And that's so I think even if you're right, that the Raiders aren't some fun plucky upstart that's going to surprise a lot of people.
- [51:51]
Robert Mays
They could be. They could be.
- [51:53]
Derek
Well yes, absolutely. They could be. But even if they're just bad, even if they're just run of the mill bad and Fernando Mendoza has what, what did I, I know Joe got hurt but like what did the Bengals do in 2020? The 2020 Bengals went 411 and 1 and Joe Burrow looked like a guy you were happy you spent the pick on. Like that's acceptable for the Raiders to be. That's totally fine.
- [52:15]
Robert Mays
That's. And I think that's kind of where I land is like I, I, I don't know. I, I just, I, I think that there is a chance that some of these moves don't work out that well. Where we we leave this season being like is is the coaching staff that they hired, are they actually difference makers and they actually guys that are going to like multiply the talent on your team in a positive way. I'm just not sure about that yet. I do think it's possible. But also if the quarterback is really good, that shit matters less. That's exactly what you're talking about with the Bengals, but it's also one of the things where like like I'm not giving them credit for having the number one pick in the draft and drafting Fernando Mendoza. Like they just landed in that spot.
- [52:49]
Derek
You should give them credit because somebody had to lose the tank bowls. Damn it. Wait, you actually, you bring up an interesting point. I wanted to ask you about this. You you typically have your finger on the pulse of coaching and coaching hires. I'm intrigued by the By KUBX DC hire Rob Leonard, who I know very little about him.
- [53:07]
Robert Mays
Very little. He was the defensive line coach last year.
- [53:09]
Derek
I don't know a whole lot about him either. He was the defensive line coach and worked under Patrick Graham in Vegas for the last couple years. He was in Baltimore for a year with Mike McDonald as the Ravens outside linebacker coach in 2022, and he coached under Flores in Miami. I do not know if that makes him a good coach, but he has spent a lot of time around defensive coaches that I respect the hell out of over the last few years. So looking back into his history again, never met the guy. Don't know anything about him. But just looking at who he's worked with and where he's gone over the last few years, it I was intrigued. It perked my eyebrows up.
- [53:42]
Robert Mays
Here's where I land with this. This reminds me a little bit of the Gannon hire, where it's late into the process. They hire one of the coordinators in the super bowl, and I think in the moment there was nothing wrong with that hire. And I do think you can make an argument that schematically, Clint Kubiak has been more interesting than Jonathan Gannon was in Philadelphia. I think there's. It's perfectly fine. I get going this direction. I just think that the Gannon era in Arizona left a little bit to be desired, and I could see the same thing happening with the Raiders. That's where I land with.
- [54:11]
Derek
That's just so funny because the beginning of the Gannon era was so promising because they looked so hopeless and they were better than that and they obviously weren't able to build on it. But the beginning of that was encouraging, at least to me. They just weren't able to do anything with it after that.
- [54:26]
Robert Mays
They're very different personalities. They're very different. Like prospects as head coaches, you hire them for very different reasons. But there are some similarities in just how I'm feeling about it in the moment.
- [54:35]
Derek
One last thing I'll say is I just I'm buying the Raiders because I buy Fernando Mendoza and it goes back to something we've said a million times over the course of the draft process. I don't think people view him that way like he just, he does. Like people don't view him as a franchise changing prospect. At least that's my opinion. I think he could be. I'm, I believe in Fernando Mendoza and I think a lot of that shit will matter less if he's the player I think he is.
- [54:58]
Robert Mays
And I wanted one more point on it. I like the players that they added. I think that where they went on the draft makes total sense. I don't mind what they did in free agency and Linderbaum contract is insane. Like I, I think I can get on board with a lot of these things. I just don't know if they're automatically going to be the difference making moves that Raiders fans probably want them to be in a year one of new regime. I'm still just in wait and see mode when it comes to that next one. Speaking of the Jonathan Gannon Cardinals is the Arizona Cardinals hired Michael Fluor, kept Nick Rolls as a defensive coordinator. I mean Tyler Algier and Isaac Salamalo are the free agent moves that they made. A couple other smaller ones we could talk about in the draft. Jeremiah Love, Chase Besontis, Carson Beck were their first three picks. Are you buying or selling the 2026 Arizona Cardinals offseason season?
- [55:41]
Derek
I'm selling pretty firmly.
- [55:44]
Robert Mays
This is the easiest one for me.
- [55:46]
Derek
I will say if, if you're a Cardinals fan looking for optimism, I'll dunk on myself and say the Cardinals kind of remind me of last year's Saints who looked completely hopeless and I didn't understand why they drafted a quarterback where they did and one year made a shitload of difference. And maybe that'll be the case for the for Arizona. With the amount of players that got hurt last year, you have a healthier overall roster. You added at least one pick to your offensive line and took a guy in Jeremiah Love who even if I disagree with the value there, maybe he can do some significant things to raise the floor of your offense. Maybe a year from now they'll be in a much better place than I'm giving them credit for. But I don't see it right now. In spring of 2026.
- [56:30]
Robert Mays
I'm selling it. I just, I just don't understand the vision for it. I don't understand what the plan is at this point you have $155 million in cap space next year. Maybe the plan is like and we're in a holding pattern. Let's see where we're at a year from now. But you look at the way that they use the draft capital and I just think it's really hard to get behind. I don't think they're any better now than they were at the start of the off season. Maybe the offensive line is better, you upgrade those two interior spots, which I think is important, but I just don't think it's significantly better. And then the defense, really what you're hoping for is your injury luck is better and that unit takes a big bounce back. I think that's totally reasonable. But with the way that they use the resources that they had this year. Salama's 33. He's not going to be a part of your plans when you're ready to be competitive. And so even if it's raising the floor of your team this year, I don't know how it's a multi year move. And then when you look at the way that they use the capital, they will almost certainly be picking in the top five next year. No matter. I don't even think they have the upside case the Browns do. Right? I think they will be picking in the top five next year. They'll be taking a quarterback because they didn't find one this year. They will be in the quarterback market next year.
- [57:38]
Commercial Voice 1
Year.
- [57:38]
Robert Mays
Okay, so they're going to take a quarterback in the top five in 2027. Who's going to play right tackle for them? Who's going to be rushing the passer with Zavin Collins being a free agent. That that's why I have an issue with the Jeremiah Love thing. Like if you look at the multi year outlook for this team like they have holes at both of those spots beyond this season. They signed Elijah Wilkinson to be a stopgap right tackle this year. I think he did an admirable job in Atlanta last year when thrust into duty when their top two guys got hurt. He is a journeyman guy that you paid a couple million bucks. It's not a multi year answer. Go look at the free agent tackles available for next year.
- [58:13]
Derek
We've been talking about that all year. Good tackles don't hit the free agent market.
- [58:17]
Robert Mays
Juan Taylor is going to be your best bet at right tackle next year. Who we'll talk about in a second. Again at edge. What are you going to do? Who are the guys that you're going to seek out, you have Josh Sweat on the roster. Other than that, you don't have many other options there. And so projecting this out over multiple years and what they did with the love thing, and not only did what they did with the love thing thing using the 65th overall pick on Carson Beck, like, I just think that there are players available that make more sense for the 2027 and 2028 Arizona Cardinals than where they went with it. And those are most of the important moves they made because they didn't do anything in free agency. What the second biggest move they made in free agency was signing a guy that plays the same position as the guy they drafted third overall, $12 million
- [59:00]
Derek
for Tyler Algier, by the way, which is fine, right?
- [59:02]
Robert Mays
Like he's a second running back. That's exactly what he's been.
- [59:05]
Derek
It's less fine when you already have James Connor and Trey Ben and on the roster.
- [59:09]
Robert Mays
I, I, I just don't understand what it's supposed to be. And for that reason I think it's pretty easy to sell this one.
- [59:15]
Derek
Jeremiah Love is the highest running back drafted since Saquon Barkley. And Saquon Barkley was incredible as a New York Giant. Like he at when he was healthy. He played like a guy worthy of drafting number two overall and the offenses were bad and it didn't get the Giants anywhere.
- [59:32]
Robert Mays
It didn't do anything.
- [59:33]
Derek
And I worry about that for Jeremiah Love, even though I think the world of him as a player.
- [59:38]
Robert Mays
Speaking of the Giants, we're going to talk about them in a second but first we're going to take one more quick break.
- [59:45]
Commercial Voice 1
We're lost and kickoff's coming up. I don't want to miss the lineup. I'm going to ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the stadium.
- [59:55]
T-Mobile Representative
Well, you're going to take a left at the old oak tree at this here road.
- [60:00]
Robert Mays
Nah, I'm just kidding.
- [60:00]
Derek
Let me get my phone out.
- [60:01]
Commercial Voice 1
How is there signal out here?
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T-Mobile Representative
T Mobile and US Cellular are coming together. So the network out here is huge.
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Derek
We get the same great signal as the city, saving a boatload with benefits. And there's a five year price guarantee too.
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T-Mobile Representative
Okay, here's the turn.
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Commercial Voice 1
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- [61:49]
Robert Mays
The New York Giants hired John Harbaugh this offseason. Matt Nagy and Denard Wil as his coordinators in free agency. Isaiah Likely, Jermaine Illuminar, Tremaine Edmonds Small one year deals for Greg Newsome, Mardarius Washington, Darnell Mooney in the draft. Their big three moves Arvo Reese at 5, Francis, Maui Noah at 10 and Colton Hood in the second round. Are you buying or selling the New York Giants off season?
- [62:12]
Derek
I'm going to borrow the point I made on a show earlier this week. I wholeheartedly buy what the Giants are doing as long as we're being honest with ourselves about who the Giants are. And that is a team that bottomed out, fired their head coach, brought in an established head coach with a track record of winning and an established reputation in the NFL to reboot them and give them respectability. Like, it's still kind of weird to talk about the Giants that way because they're one of the most storied franchises in the league and they've won several Super Bowls. But they attained that level of ineptitude that they had to bring in somebody to make them look better and so if we look at it in that frame where you're basically starting over from square one and you're trying to build this thing from the ground up, I think this is a great first step for a team trying to regain respectability. As long as we're not trying to talk about the Giants as a factor in the NFC this year, I completely buy what they've done.
- [63:15]
Robert Mays
It's a hard buy for me. I, I just. I can get on board with pretty much every single thing that they did. Even a free agency. Right. Like they wait Isaiah likely they signed Tremaine Edmond Mayman's because he was cut doesn't play into the comp F formula. They're going to get a fourth round pick for Wandell Robinson. Like they weren't passive in the moves
- [63:33]
Derek
that Raven's DNA is already in there man.
- [63:35]
Robert Mays
But that's part of it. Right. And I think that it's about trying to make the team better while also understanding that you have to have a multi year outlook in mind when you're at this stage. And I think that they did a good job of taking both of those things and weighing them equally with the moves that they made. And I like what they did did like. I can completely understand if you're the Giants. If you're the Bengals and you're in this position with Joe Burrow. I have no problem dealing the 10th overall pick and going get going and getting Dexter Lawrence. I, I think where you are as a franchise. I get it where you are with the Giants. If would you rather give a third contract to Dexter Lawrence or would you rather have Francis Mouino?
- [64:10]
Derek
It's no question and it's. It's the coup of the off season for the Giants and that's not to hate on Dexter Lawrence. I, I love the move for both parties honestly. Like for where Dexter Lawrence in his career it makes sense for him to land on a team like Cincinnati. They obviously really needed him and were willing to pay him to be there for a little while. And the Giants come out of this draft with who our guy Dane thinks is the best player in the NFL draft and you manage to reinforce your offensive line and plug in Francis, Maui Noah. I love that he gets to start out at guard.
- [64:43]
Robert Mays
Perfect easier position.
- [64:45]
Derek
Yes.
- [64:45]
Robert Mays
He's like the idea that all right we're going to see what he is a guard and then in two years if we move on from Illumina or he can go out and play tactics tackle, it's a perfect landing spot for him and even like a Small thing like the Mooney contract for next to nothing. Like I think that's a way to protect Calvin Austin as well depending on how the draft could go. And so they get Malachi Fields eventually. But I think they have enough at the pass catching spots with likely I think what they did in on defense and like again the Arvell Reese thing, the if they bring in DJ reader and he's kind of the again the Costco version of losing Dexter Lawrence and you can I get everything that they did. The truly the only thing where I and I'm not like, I want to be clear about this. I'm not like over the moon about this. I don't think that John Harbaugh is necessarily this like total cure all as a head coach. John Harbaugh operated in a very stable organization that's been very good at a lot of things for a long time. With Lamar Jackson, this is a different situation. But I think all of the moves that they made for the most part are things I can get behind. I understand the thought process behind them. The only one where I'm like, I wish you would have done something different than this is not Maggie. That's it. Yeah, it's the only one that I'm not like actively excited about. I can't wait to see what Denard Wilson can do with going from a place where he had no pass rushers on the edge to go into a place where he has like three to four pass rushers on the edge.
- [66:01]
Derek
So many they might try to get rid of one.
- [66:03]
Robert Mays
I'm into this. I'm very into what they are. And I think you doing a good job of level setting where it's like what are they actually? And I think being at a place where we're winning between seven and 10 games and we're competitive, maybe we sneak in as a wild card. Like, I think that's an okay place for the Giants to be. I think that would be a great season for the New York Giants.
- [66:24]
Derek
Are you kidding me? That would be over the moon. Can you imagine? I'm already daydreaming about Andrew Thomas stays healthy and the New York Giants offensive line kicks ass.
- [66:35]
Robert Mays
It's actually a strength for the first time in a long time rather. And it's been better the last couple years. I want to be clear. Strength.
- [66:40]
Derek
It could be a strength. And then I'll be in here every week arguing with Derek where Derek's like, like Jackson Dart isn't doing anything impressive. And I'm like, yeah, it's okay. They're he's playing well and winning like it's whatever. I. I can't wait. I'm already daydreaming about it.
- [66:55]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I, it's. I, I think that they've done a very good job of making the team better without overextending themselves too much. I, I think that's it's been a very measured but impactful off season for the New York Giants.
- [67:08]
Derek
I'm, I'm pretty cautiously optimistic about these first steps.
- [67:13]
Robert Mays
This next, these next two are an interesting pairing. We have a team that did as many things as it possibly could and adding players. And then you have another team that added no players, the Miami Dolphins. Some of the details here $179 million in dead money for the Dolphins as just in the background of how we think about the rest of these moves. Hire Jeff Halfley as their head coach. John Eric Sullivan as their gm. Bobby Slowik comes in as the offensive coordinator. Sign Malik Willis. That's mostly what they did in free agency because they have $179 million in dead money right now. Traded Jalen Waddle for a one and some day three capital cut Bradley Chubb, Tyree Kill Tua. That's how you get to $179 million in the draft. We'd be here for an hour, but Kaden Proctor, Chris Johnson, Jacob Rodriguez, Chris Bell are the big moves for the Dolphins. Are you buying or selling the Miami Dolphins off season?
- [68:04]
Derek
I don't know how to answer this.
- [68:06]
Robert Mays
It's impossible to say.
- [68:07]
Derek
Here's, here's my answer. If the rookies are good, then I'm buying it. And if the rookies aren't good, then I'm selling it. I don't know what else to say. When you draft 13 guys and half of them are expected to play pretty sizable roles early, it's all about that. How good of a job did you do? Everybody loves their draft class right now. How. How good is it going to be really? I mean, I think you said this on a show a while back. Like if the Dolphins draft class has a, a Brown sort of year where you have a Rookie of the Year candidate and two or three other meaningful starters, then I'm buying this wholeheartedly. If it turns out that a couple of these picks were reaches or a couple of these guys just aren't as good as we thought, or maybe, you know, God forbid, but somebody gets hurt and misses the year, then that's pretty hard to buy. Cause it's a year of the Malik Willis contract where we, we assume it's not going to go that well. But the less rookie contributions you're getting, the less you have any way to go on what they're building here. So I, I think it hinges entirely on what a 13 person rookie class does. I don't, I don't know how else to, to pitch it.
- [69:15]
Robert Mays
I'm buying it for what it is. I, I guess that's where I.
- [69:17]
Derek
Ground zero.
- [69:18]
Robert Mays
Like yeah, it's ground zero and, and I'm buying it for what it is. Like I, I think that that's a really good way to frame it. And if you look at it like if Jacob Rodriguez is 85% of what Carson Schlesinger is from last year, you'd feel pretty good about that. Again, those early picks are going to go a huge way.
- [69:34]
Derek
Chris gets on the field in like week five and does some crazy shit.
- [69:38]
Robert Mays
We talked about it in real time. The Chris Bell swing is completely understandable when you are a team in the Dolphins situation. The receiving core is a nightmare. But when you start with zero players other than the three or four guys you have along the offensive line, you can only do so much even if you have 13 draft picks. The Proctor thing is interesting. Like, like I wonder what the multi year plan for him is. If he was always going to just play guard, would you rather have. You want a. But I don't think that's, I don't think that's how they're seeing. No, I think he'll start his guard and then that move. Beyond that.
- [70:07]
Derek
Austin Jackson has had durability issues and he might not be there for the long term.
- [70:11]
Robert Mays
So you get him at go right guard for this year, he's a right tackle. Beyond that I think that's a totally reasonable place to land. And then again in free agency, what could they possibly do? The only thing that I, I, not that I question but that I'm curious about is like I'm not sure I totally understand the Willis thing in conjunction with everything else. Like why did you feel so compelled to do this? You can move on from him next year for 25 million against the cap. You have an ocean of cap space. You, you won't even notice it. And I think the argument is in the chance it works out. There's enough of an upside case where it's worth it for you. And when you look at teams that have been these rebuilding teams like deep in these rebuilds, there can be the most painful version of it and there can be a slightly less painful version of it. And the quarterback quality really Informs that, like, do you want to be the Cody Kessler Brown?
- [71:06]
Derek
No. I think no. Right.
- [71:08]
Robert Mays
And so even if the rest of the roster is like in its infant, infant stages and it's hard to necessarily square with a quarterback that you've paid, does that make it all a little bit more tolerable for everyone as they come to work every single day? I get that as an argument.
- [71:22]
Derek
That's my answer. And I think there's been a lot of talk since he signed and since they traded away Waddle that it's like, oh, what is Malik Willis supposed to do? And I feel a little bit bad about that, but that's what the money's for. Like, from an organizational standpoint, if I'm the Dolphins, this is a guy with upside who gives us something to evaluate and Lord knows where it can take us. I think it makes everybody feel better about coming to work and I assume it makes Dolphins fans more excited to watch this team than if this was Jacoby Brissette and Gardner Minshew. Like Arizona.
- [71:53]
Robert Mays
Yeah.
- [71:53]
Derek
Like, yes, I would rather have Malik Willis.
- [71:56]
Robert Mays
It's a perfect comparison.
- [71:57]
Derek
I would rather be like, okay, I don't know if this money is going to be well spent, but at least it's more interesting than giving up. And so, like, I'm fine with it from that perspective. And it's not the most fun situation for Willis to try to make an impression in, but that's what the $67 million is for.
- [72:14]
Robert Mays
Yeah. They moved on from next year. Is it post June 1st. It would be 20, 26 million against the cap. They would save nothing. But there wouldn't be any more dead money. They wouldn't encourage.
- [72:21]
Derek
And they could save 13 million if they cut him in 2028.
- [72:23]
Robert Mays
In 2028, yes. And so I, I think, and I don't think you're in a position with this sort of contract. And we've talked about this where if you're bad enough to have a number one pick or the number two overall pick, you can pull the trigger on a quarterback absolutely. Easily. Do that if you want to. And so I don't think it precludes you from doing that. And if it does work out and you're paying him $20 million over the next three years and he's giving you fairly high level quarterback play, you're getting return on investment with that contract. And so I, I do get it, even if it seems kind of misaligned with the overall ethos they brought into the offseason.
- [72:53]
Derek
Quarterback salaries are in such a Place where you see $67 million and you're like, that's a crazy price. This has to work out. And I'm just like, I don't think so. I don't think that's true.
- [73:03]
Robert Mays
It's similar to the Justin Fields contract from last year.
- [73:05]
Derek
Yeah, right.
- [73:05]
Robert Mays
And they. The jets have moved on and it's a decent. You. You're paying. You're still paying Justin Fields this year, but you're not paying him an of amount out where it.
- [73:12]
Derek
It's not prohibited.
- [73:13]
Robert Mays
Exactly. There's. There's nothing that's preventing you.
- [73:15]
Derek
And if you're the Dolphins, just throw it on the pile of. Of dead cap charges, like whatever.
- [73:19]
Robert Mays
Well, next year they have fewer of those. I think that's part of it. Even though already. Over the cat page is laughing at me. As I said, they have fewer of those. They already have $57 million in dead cap next year because the 2A contract. What a disaster.
- [73:36]
Derek
Just. We gotta. We gotta clip out you being moved to laughter by the Evans cap situation.
- [73:42]
Robert Mays
All right, speaking of tua, let's get to The Atlanta Falcons this off season hired Kevin Stefanski. Kev. Jeff Ulbrich as the defensive coordinator, essentially sat out of free agency. Juwan Taylor one year, 5 million after losing McGarry I think is actually a pretty smooth move. But that's really all they did. They're 31st in cash spending this year. That'll go up with the London extension. But for the most part, this team is in a holding pattern. Are you buying or sell? Oh, then the draft. They had no draft picks, which is why I didn't write anything down. Avian Terrell in the second round, Zachariah Branch in the third round. It's one of the more eventful or uneventful off seasons for any single team. I think that's purposeful. Are you buying or selling the Atlanta Falcons off season?
- [74:21]
Derek
I'm buying it in the sense that this is what they should be doing. Yeah. You know, their, their teenager got the credit card and ran up a bunch of debt that they didn't know about. And then the adults got back in the room and were like, holy, we can't. This is crazy. We gotta fix this. And so I don't blame Johnny got
- [74:40]
Robert Mays
sent to military school.
- [74:41]
Derek
I, I don't blame them for handling it this way. But I'm selling them as a team that I should care that much about. Like, clear. Like, their goal is to just get through this and get their books in a better spot, get their picks back and you know, hopefully you've got a foundation for Kevin Stefanski but like I'm, I'm selling them as, as somebody that's going to factor into this 2026 season. I mean like the best case scenario for this Atlanta team is that they win the worst division in football and lose a wild card game. And that's like the very, very best case scenario. And that's not that interesting to me.
- [75:19]
Robert Mays
I would make an argument that that's not the best case scenario for like the long term health of the franchise.
- [75:24]
Derek
Yes. Okay. I just mean best case in terms of wins and losses. Best case scenario for them is that they're competently bad and are in a range to try to draft a quarterback next year. Year.
- [75:34]
Robert Mays
I think your best case scenario is that you compete for a division as a proof of concept team. But I actually think you might benefit more from being a 6 and 11 team that stumbles into a quarterback next year is exactly what's in my notes. Absolutely. So that, that's where I sit with this. They have a ton of cap space next year. I think this is a, everybody slow down. We're going to see what we have and then we're going to move into next season. I think that's what it is. The only issue is again, you get back into draft capital if you have to draft a quarterback next year in the top 10, which I do think they will be in the market to do. I the idea that they've given up on Michael Pennix already. I'm sure some people would find that flippant and too quick. It's a new regime. That's what I'm for. A guy that can't stay healthy. And so I, I, it's, I think that they will be in the market for a quarterback next year. The only thing I'd say in terms of like how they could have handled this off season better. Could you have maybe thought a little bit harder about Kyler as like a multi year option as a solution to quarterback? But there's like a. Stefanski has a real history with Drew Petzing. I think that offense and Kyler's kind of missing placement in that offense. I think that's probably enough to turn them off from that idea. And I don't know if Kyler even goes there. I think Kyler's always going to Minnesota where he has a better chance.
- [76:40]
Derek
I was going to say Kyler probably wants to go to a better situation for himself.
- [76:43]
Robert Mays
So, and look at, listen, I get under. I understand that two is not the Most exciting option. Two is not the most exciting option when you're paying him $53 million a year. Two for a million bucks is kind of like whatever. I mean, like this is fine to survive one season.
- [76:55]
Derek
Yeah. I, I won't be surprised if the Falcons are. Are a watchable team.
- [77:00]
Robert Mays
Yes.
- [77:00]
Derek
Like, Kevin's a good coach and they, I mean, they, they still have Bijan, they still have Drake London.
- [77:04]
Robert Mays
There's Kyle Pitt last year again. I think Juwan Taylor as a solution for moving on from McGarry there. I think Joanne Taylor is going to be again. Elijah Wilkinson, admirable job last year. Juan Taylor, another one of those players at $25 million a year. No, thank you. At $5 million a year, perfectly acceptable. And I think they got enough on offense to be okay this year.
- [77:24]
Derek
I'm also really excited to see Jeff Albrecht coach this secondary. Specific. The secondary is incredibly fun. You got two Terrell brothers now. Billy Bowman and Xavier Watts were so fun last year. Jesse Bates, one of the most underrated players in the NFL. A lot of. A lot of fun. A lot of fun players back there. I don't know what that means for the Falcons win, loss record, but I want to. I'll be checking in on that on. On NFL Pro as often as I can.
- [77:50]
Robert Mays
I had the exact same thought while looking at that group. I was like, all right, I can get on board with this. I think that could be a really fun collection of five guys back there. There. And then the front is. We'll see. Right. Like the James Pierce thing is its own conversation. There's a very good chance he doesn't play at all for them this year.
- [78:04]
Derek
At the very least, it'll. I would guess some sort of lengthy suspension is coming.
- [78:08]
Robert Mays
And. But Jaylen Walker I think showed enough last year and you know, you. I think there's enough pieces for them to be competent. I really like what Jeff Ulbricht did. I think them keeping Jeff Ulbrich was the right decision for Kevin Stefanski. And so this is going to be a year where. Where can you just be again a proof of concept team where going into 2027, when you have money to spend and draft capital again, are you in a decent spot? And I think they can be taking everything into account.
- [78:35]
Derek
They're doing the right thing. It just means that they're slightly uninteresting in terms of like the landscape of contenders.
- [78:43]
Robert Mays
Yes. And so I. There's not a lot to buy or sell, but I am whatever little nuggets we can get. I'm buying them as much as you possibly can, I guess.
- [78:50]
Derek
Yes.
- [78:51]
Robert Mays
All right. That is all we've got for the rebuilding teams. We'll be back with our second bucket of teams next week, which we are calling the middle class. Very much looking forward to that. I really enjoy doing these shows. Can't wait to dig into the final three of them. For now, that is all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like like comment and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.
- [79:23]
Commercial Voice 1
We're lost and kickoff's coming up. I don't want to miss the lineup. I'm going to ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the stadium.
- [79:33]
T-Mobile Representative
Well, you're going to take a left at the old oak tree at this here road.
- [79:38]
Robert Mays
Nah, I'm just kidding.
- [79:39]
Derek
Let me get my phone out.
- [79:40]
Commercial Voice 1
How is there signal out here?
- [79:42]
T-Mobile Representative
T Mobile is US Cellular are coming together so the network out here is huge.
- [79:46]
Derek
We get the same great signal as the city, saving a boatload with benefits. And there's a five year price guarantee too.
- [79:52]
T-Mobile Representative
Okay, here's the turn.
- [79:54]
Commercial Voice 1
Actually, can you pull up the way to a T Mobile store?
- [79:57]
T-Mobile Representative
America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out. Plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available at US Cellular stores. Yours in hermiston Best Mobile Network Based on analysis by Ooklo Speed test intelligence data second half of 2025 bigger network the combination of T mobiles and US cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk, text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details.
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Robert Mays
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Derek
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- [81:08]
Discover Credit Card Announcer
Phew.
- [81:09]
Derek
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