Buy or sell their offseasons: The Middle Class

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Buy or Sell Their Offseasons: The Middle Class"

The Athletic Football Show: A Show About the NFL
Host: Robert Mays
Co-host: Dave Hellman
Date: May 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode continues The Athletic's offseason "Buy or Sell" series, focusing on the NFL's so-called "middle-class" teams—those outside the elite and the rebuilders, but with plausible hopes for playoffs or more. Robert Mays and Dave Hellman break down and debate the approaches, signings, trades, and overall team-building strategies for eight teams: Panthers, Saints, Commanders, Colts, Vikings, Buccaneers, Steelers, and Bengals. The hosts assess whether they "buy" or "sell" each team's offseason, discussing roster moves, coaching changes, draft picks, and the broader vision (or lack thereof) guiding each franchise.

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Teams Discussed & Key Takeaways

1. Carolina Panthers
   (Starts at 05:04)

   • Offseason Moves:
     • Signed Jalen Phillips (4 yrs, $120m) and Devin Lloyd (3 yrs, $42m)
     • Added Rasheed Walker, Luke Fortner for O-line depth
     • Drafted Monroe Freeling (OT), Lee Hunter (DL), Chris Brazell (WR)
   • Analysis:
     • Strong praise for targeted, "sensible" team-building; finally swung big for a game-changer in Phillips, after last year's free agency miss (Milton Williams).
     • "[Phillips] is one of the most important positions in the game... I think it's Jalen Phillips." – Dave (06:09)
     • Lloyd's price was "not scary at all" and filled a glaring need.
     • O-line depth moves lauded for value.
   • Draft:
     • Moves for Lee Hunter and Chris Brazell seen as forward-looking, building multi-year flexibility.
   • Quarterback Question Looms:
     • Bryce Young's fifth-year option picked up; everything hinges on his development.
     • "What are you doing to put everything you can around the quarterback?" – Robert (13:35)
   • Buy/Sell Verdict: Both buy; "pretty easy decision."

2. New Orleans Saints
   (Starts at 14:21)

   • Offseason Moves:
     • Signed guard David Edwards (4 yrs, $61m) and RB Travis Etienne (4 yrs, $48m)
     • Offensive line remains a team strength; RB signing discussed at length.
     • Drafted WR Jordan Tyson, DT Kristen Miller, TE Oscar Delp
   • Analysis:
     • Etienne's price seen as high, but justified by lack of alternatives in draft/FA and dire RB need.
     • "If you're trying to help your quarterback, where's that money going? I mean, you signed the guard. The receiver market is insane..." – Dave (15:08)
     • Saints operating more rationally than in recent years—applauded for "acting normally".
     • Future flexibility with $60m in 2027 cap space.
     • Goal: give Tyler Shough every opportunity to succeed.
     • "We're trying to figure out if Tyler's the guy..." – Dave (21:28)
   • Buy/Sell Verdict: Both buy; like trajectory, especially compared to recent years (see 23:04 for cap turnaround discussion).

3. Washington Commanders
   (Starts at 28:27)

   • Offseason Moves:
     • Coaching overhaul: OC David Blau, DC Durante Jones
     • Added Adafe Oweh, Chigoziem Okonkwo, Leo Chenal (DEF), Rashad White (RB)
     • Drafted Sonny Styles (DB), Antonio Williams (WR)
   • Analysis:
     • Hosts sell the offseason; too much focus on defensive quick fixes, not enough offensive support for Jaden Daniels.
     • Center situation and WR depth are particular sources of concern.
     • "Year three of a very talented quarterback...and I resent the Commanders for investing so much of their capital on the side of the ball that's not helping him." – Dave (29:21)
     • Offense lacks weapons/depth; "we're coping here" (32:19).
     • Lack of exciting young players from recent drafts compounds roster malaise.
     • "The offensive depth chart...is underwhelming and even a little scary." – Robert (32:54)
   • Buy/Sell Verdict: Both sell; unimpressed with the “sum total” and trajectory.

4. Indianapolis Colts
   (Starts at 39:02)

   • Offseason Moves:
     • Retained Daniel Jones (2 yrs, $88m) and Alec Pierce (4 yrs, $114m)
     • Traded Michael Pittman
     • Drafted CJ Allen (LB), AJ Halsey (DB), other depth pieces
   • Analysis:
     • Approach likened to "jumping out of a plane"—logical given context but risky.
     • "They painted themselves into a corner...they are proceeding with the only logical path." – Dave (40:53)
     • Jones' extension a desperate move, but there weren’t good alternatives due to previous regime choices.
     • Offense downgraded with Pittman exit; WR and O-line bets may be fragile.
     • Missing out on Trey Hendrickson criticized: “...missing out on Hendrickson, that's one of my biggest issues here.” – Robert (46:48)
   • Buy/Sell Verdict: Mixed, leaning “reluctant buy” given lack of alternatives but with skepticism about upside.

5. Minnesota Vikings
   (Starts at 48:47)

   • Offseason Moves:
     • Signed Kyler Murray (QB) and James Pierre (CB)
     • Traded Jonathan Greenard, drafted Caleb Banks, Jake Golday, and others; rebuilt D-line
   • Analysis:
     • Financially hamstrung but considered a win thanks to landing Murray essentially for "free".
     • “Improving the quarterback situation unequivocally for $1.6 million is great.” – Dave (50:00)
     • Defense fully overhauled ‘Flores guys’ in the draft; offense largely unchanged except for the massive QB upgrade.
     • Some worries about depth—especially at WR.
     • “The best thing that could happen to the Vikings is that Kyler Murray is worth $45 million a year based on the way he played." – Robert (55:35)
   • Buy/Sell Verdict: Both buy, an “easy” decision because they pivoted perfectly after a disastrous QB pick.

6. Tampa Bay Buccaneers
   (Starts at 58:57)

   • Offseason Moves:
     • New OC Zach Robinson, re-signed Cade Otton, Kenny Gainwell, Alexander Lonnie, signed A'Shawn Robinson, drafted Reuben Bain (EDGE), Josiah Trotter (LB), Ted Hurst (WR)
     • Lost Mike Evans in FA
   • Analysis:
     • Team in “limbo”—uncertainty about Baker Mayfield’s future clouds overall vision.
     • “I think they should extend Baker Mayfield. If they were to extend Baker...I would be in on the vision.” – Dave (59:35)
     • Direction likely depends on record: commit to Baker and compete, or hit minor reset if they go 8–9 and change coaches.
     • Young defense and OL depth praised; draft class liked (“If they hadn’t drafted Reuben Bain...I’d be selling this as hard as I possibly could.” – Robert, 65:50)
     • Still, neither fully buys, due to unclear team direction.
   • Buy/Sell Verdict: Both leaning sell; “sitting in my cart” until vision clarifies, especially at QB.

7. Pittsburgh Steelers
   (Starts at 74:11)

   • Offseason Moves:
     • New HC Mike McCarthy, DC Patrick Graham; traded for Michael Pittman, signed Jamel Dean, minor signings; drafted Max Ahonach, Jeremy Bernard, among others.
     • Retained Aaron Rodgers at QB.
   • Analysis:
     • “I'm selling. I want to like this team so much more than I do.” – Dave (74:45)
     • Main critique: Running it back with Rodgers after a poor season is uninspiring; mystery-box potential of another QB more appealing.
     • Coaching change to McCarthy seen as doubling down on "boring competence" over upside.
     • Roster otherwise liked—“buying the roster, selling the vision.”
     • Playoff contention possible, but “so what?” if ceiling is unchanged.
   • Buy/Sell Verdict: Both sell.

8. Cincinnati Bengals
   (Starts at 83:03)

   • Offseason Moves:
     • Aggressive: traded for Dexter Lawrence; signed Boye Mafe, Brian Cook, Jonathan Allen; drafted Cassius Howell (EDGE), Connor Lew (C), among others.
   • Analysis:
     • Hosts “buy” the offseason; praise rare assertiveness from Cincy’s front office.
     • “It would be disingenuous not to buy the Bengals stepping outside of their comfort zone.” – Dave (83:40)
     • Defensive focus a clear response to past weaknesses; addition of Dexter Lawrence seen as possibly the biggest move leaguewide.
     • O-line mostly unchanged, but addition of Connor Lew is a Philly-style long-term play.
     • Only real omission: no addition at linebacker.
     • Ultimate success hinges on Burrow’s health—but the foundation has improved.
   • Buy/Sell Verdict: Both buy.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Panthers (Jalen Phillips):
  "If there's a guy worth taking a swing on and investing $120 million in, I think it's Jalen Phillips." – Dave (06:09)

• On the Saints (cap recovery):
  "It's just a reminder that the quagmire is always easier to escape than you think it is in the NFL. Like the idea of cap hell..." – Robert (23:04)

• On the Commanders:
  "I resent the Commanders for investing so much of their capital on the side of the ball that's not helping [Jaden Daniels]." – Dave (29:21)

• On the Colts:
  "They painted themselves into a corner, and so... they're proceeding with the only logical path. That doesn't mean I think it's a good path." – Dave (40:53)

• On the Vikings:
  "Improving the quarterback situation unequivocally for $1.6 million is great." – Dave (50:00)
  "Kyler Murray for a million dollars—about as well as you can do [pivoting after a bust]." – Robert (56:43)

• On the Buccaneers:
  "The Bucks are in limbo for me. They're just sitting in my cart." – Dave (73:55)

• On the Steelers:
  "Buying the roster, selling the vision. That's how I feel about the Steelers right now." – Robert (78:43)

• On the Bengals:
  "It would be disingenuous not to buy the Bengals stepping outside of their comfort zone." – Dave (83:40)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:04: Panthers offseason breakdown
• 14:21: Saints offseason discussion
• 28:27: Commanders offseason/roster construction
• 39:02: Colts analysis and QB dilemma
• 48:47: Vikings, Kyler Murray, Flores’ influence
• 58:57: Buccaneers, vision, and QB debate
• 74:11: Steelers, Aaron Rodgers, direction
• 83:03: Bengals, rare aggression, assessment

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Episode Tone & Final Thoughts

Mays and Hellman blend deep roster construction insights, cap/draft strategy, and relentless logical questioning of each team's vision—with plenty of dry humor and weary realism for franchises mired in mediocrity. They heap genuine praise on teams taking bold, coherent steps (Vikings, Bengals, Panthers) and lament wasted years or muddled-thinking elsewhere (Commanders, Steelers, Buccaneers).

The theme is clear: in the NFL, patiently amassing talent is less useful than clarity of vision and a willingness to swing big—whether that means bold signings or owning your timeline reset. And, as always, everything eventually comes down to the quarterback.

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For more in-depth NFL analysis and to follow the "Buy or Sell Offseasons" series, subscribe to The Athletic Football Show.

Transcript

[Robert Mays]

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[Dave Hellman]

Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree at this here road. Nah, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.

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[Dave Hellman]

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[Robert Mays]

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Keeping it going with our buying or Selling off seasons series today. Last week we did the rebuilding teams. Today it is the middle class. Panthers, Saints, Commanders, Colts, Vikings, Bucks, Steelers, angles. Today on our show, we're just running through, like we did last week, all eight of their offseasons, the moves that they made. Are we buying or selling the approach that these teams took in 2026, that's me and Dave Hellman breaking it down right now. It is the second installments today of our buying or selling off season show. We're going to hit all 32 teams over the course of these four shows. Last week it was the rebuilders, right? The teams that are in transition, to say the very least, teams that are probably near the bottom when it comes to super bowl odds. Today we move to the group that we are calling the middle class. This is going to be the first one where there might be some arguments about which team should be in this group, but I think we do have a decent amount of plausible deniability as to why we landed on these eight.

[Dave Hellman]

I would guess we're going to hear some things. I mean, by my count, there's 2, 20, 25 playoff teams in this group and at least another handful of teams that had high expectations at one point during the season, whether it was the beginning or the middle.

[Robert Mays]

So yeah, one of those playoff teams was below.500.

[Dave Hellman]

I didn't, I didn't say they were great playoff teams.

[Robert Mays]

I feel okay about that one. And then the second playoff team got absolutely dog walked in that playoff. So I, I feel okay about both.

[Dave Hellman]

Robert, what you're not understanding is that everybody's team is just going to get better year over year. There's no variance, there's no unpredictability. Things are going to be better than they were last year.

[Robert Mays]

The last team we, we could talk about this now. The, the team that I think was most on the bubble for this group, when you look at super bowl odds, playoff odds, things like that, was probably the Bengals. They ended up here. And I think partially in my mind, I'm tempted to just be like, oh, the Bengals are a playoff hopeful team. Like we'll do them in the playoff, hopefully bucket. And then you realize that the Bengals haven't made the playoffs in three years. Like the Bengals probably belong in this tier right now until they prove us

[Dave Hellman]

otherwise, I'm happy we're putting the Bengals here because as somebody who defends the Bengals and wants the best for the Bengals, like the, the results don't match the way that they're often talked about, at least over the last Two or three years. And it's, what have you done for me lately? League. So this is, this is nice. Like, I, I have hopes that the Bengals can be a better team than this, but based on the last couple years, I think this is probably where they belong.

[Robert Mays]

The odds I was looking at, the Bengals, Bears and Jags all were 25 to one to win the Super Bowl. And I, I think I felt most comfortable being like the Bears and the Jags deserve the benefit of the doubt here. The Bears won a playoff game last year. The Jaguars won 13 games.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah, I mean, the Jags won 13 games. And there was, there was debate about them being in this category. And we were all like, no, that, that doesn't make sense based on where it looks like they are.

[Robert Mays]

So let's start with these eight teams. Let's begin with the team we mentioned at the top. The team made the playoffs last year, but did it with a losing record. And that is the Carolina Panthers. Biggest moves for the Panthers this off season. Signed Jalen Phillips four years, 120 million. Devin Lloyd three for 42. Brought in Rasheed Walker as left tackle depth. Luke Fortner is interior offensive line depth in the draft. Monroe Freeling. Lee Hunter, the nose tackle from Texas Tech. Chris Brazil from wide from Tennessee, the wide receiver. Are you buying or selling the Carolina Panthers 2026 off season?

[Dave Hellman]

It's early in the show to say this, but we're going to go over a lot of teams today. I think this is the off season that I buy the most in entire category. I really, really like what the Carolina Panthers did in this off season. You take your biggest swing, one of the biggest swings of the free agency period, on one of the most important positions in the game. A guy that I really love. I mean, the only question with Jalen Phillips is just if he can stay healthy. But the last two times he's been healthy, he's been top 10 in the league in total pressures. Like, if there's a guy worth taking a swing on and investing $120 million in, I think it's Jalen Phillips. Devin Lloyd, we said it heading into free agency. He's the exact type of free agent that scares the crap out of me. But they got him at a cost that is not scary at all. Like, if I had known going into free agency that Devin Lloyd would get three years, 42 million, I would have been advocating for a lot of people to go after him. I just, I thought the price tag would get a little more out of whack. And on top of that. It's, it's not like the Panthers had a good linebacker situation, you know, worst league question. There's only, there's only. You can only go up from where Carolina was. So for a variety of reasons, I like the Lloyd signing a lot more than I thought I did. Luke Fortner, actually, the Panthers offensive line. Consider this. You lose Iky aanu in the playoffs, which is just a terrible, terrible time to sustain an injury. Injury. Like think about how the Micah Parsons injury affects the way that we're going to talk about the packers when we get to them in this series and how much that sucks. You deal with the Ikkanu injury and you replace losing Cade Mays with two capable starters. I would say maybe not amazing starters, but getting Rasheed Walker and Luke Fortner at a base cost of like $6 million is fantastic team building. And then they just added a bunch of guys who can help the overall depth of their roster in the draft. I thought it sounds weird to say sensible about a team that gave out $120 million contract, but just a very sensible off season that addressed a lot of their biggest problems.

[Robert Mays]

We talked a lot about the Jalen Phillips contract and the Devin Lloyd contract in the moment and I was on board with both of them for reasons that again, we, we hit a lot during the free agency period. The Jalen Phillips contract is massive. It's $30 million a year for a guy that, like you said, has struggled to stay healthy for his career. And even when he's been healthy, he's not like an elite, elite, elite player. And I still think it's an okay thing to do because again, like we talked about, they missed on Milton Williams last year and I think consciously or not, that informed the way that they approached this free agency period with Jalen Phillips. Because I think, and I said this a lot in the moment, I think it's worse to pay solid players very good money than very good players elite money in free agency. Because I think the most important thing you can do is make sure that you have needle moving, difference making players. And, and even if they had to pay a premium to get Jalen Phillips, he is one of those guys in a way that Tershawn Wharton is not right. And so I think they had to shop in that category last year because they missed on Milton Williams. And I think this is them kind of over correcting or correcting that a little bit in a way that I understand and I'm okay with.

[Dave Hellman]

And the injury situation is undoubtedly a risk. I'm not Trying to say that it isn't, but. And I, I remember saying this when it all happened in March. I'm so much more comfortable knowing he has produced like this sort of player and it's just a matter if he can stay healthy as opposed to he's never produced like this and we're paying him to make a leap. Once he gets to our team, the leap's been made like he is that guy. And on top of that, the Panthers have talent around him that can take some of the pressure off him and hopefully help him look as good as possible. I mean, Derrick Brown sitting in the middle of your defensive line you would think is going to make anybody look great. So if it's just a matter of him staying on the field, I feel really comfortable with that. And yeah, there is injury risk, but it's a 100% chance of injury game.

[Robert Mays]

We talked about Devin Lloyd and the reason he made $14 million this year. I think two things. One, he's an older player, give me his age, 28 season. And two, it's really one year of that level of production. Both of those things, the prices that's baked into the price that you're paying. And I think that I'm okay with both of those. When you land at $14 million a year. He got less than Jamie and Sherwood and Nick Bolton got last off season. And I think Devin Lloyd was a better player in 2025 than either of those guys were in their contract years, even if they're a little bit younger. So both of those moves I can easily get on board with. You talked about them kind of protecting themselves a little bit with the offensive line depth. I think the Rasheed Walker thing is a perfect okay. If we don't get the tackle in the first round, we can live with this. They did get Moreau Freeling in the first round and now if you want to slow play it, he doesn't have to play till week five or six. You bring him along at the right pace. If he's better, he'll play. If he's not, you have an answer in the short term with the Quanu hurt. I think that's a great way to set yourself up. The only part of the draft, I think there are two the free and thing makes total sense every single time. The two moves that they made where I was like, huh, Lee Hunter in the second round after everything they had done on the defensive line in 2025, they signed Bobby Brown. They signed to Sean Wharton. We know Derrick Brown is already there. I think That's a sign that now that they're paying Jalen Phillips and Devin Lloyd the money that they are, when that contract really kicks in for Phillips next year, he has a 9ish million dollar cap at this year. They'll be ready to move on from some of those 20, 25 contracts. And I think Hunter kind of allows you to do that in a way that they wouldn't have been able to do before they added him because they wouldn't have had that level of flexibility. And and then Brazel, I was reading just some of the quotes that Dave Canales had and Canalis is a former wide receivers coach. I'm sure he obviously thinks about the position, you know, pretty in depth and has a history of having to think about how that room comes together. And it really does seem like they're talking about Brazel as like a space creator, which makes a lot of sense because they don't really have that within this group. If you're really down on what Leggett is and can be. And so both of those moves, just when you compare, like when you combine that with everything else they've done over the last couple years, it's kind of like, oh, it's an interesting place for them to invest. But I actually do think it makes sense when you consider kind of the multi year outlook and some of the players they might be ready to move on from when the time comes.

[Dave Hellman]

It's funny because as a prospect I'm not the biggest fan of Brazel and we talked about that on the receiver preview.

[Robert Mays]

He could be anything, sure.

[Dave Hellman]

But a at at pick 83, I just like again, it's hard to get worked up about third round picks and on top of that I agree with you. I think of him as a space creator. He's a guy that at the very least Bryce Young can throw it up for him and he can potentially go downfield and get it. It's the stuff that you hope Xavier Legette could be and he just isn't that guy at this point in his career. And I hope I don't know this, but I hope Tedroa McMillan only played in the slot 15% of the time last year and I would hope adding a 6, 5 downfield guy who's probably going to be out there the vast majority of the time. I hope Tetarola McMillan is playing in the slot more often as a result of this and that that makes this more appealing even if Brazil's not even getting that many targets and it just

[Robert Mays]

allows you to be more flexible With Coker, too. You can move both of those guys around in the way that you want to if you can just kind of stick Brazel out there. So I'm into it. I'm into a lot of the things that they did. I think it makes sense. I still don't know how I feel about this team overall, just because I. It's always going to come down to what the quarterback is going to be. They picked up his fifth year option. We're going to talk about fifth year options later this week. I am totally fine with them doing that. It's $25 million for a quarterback in 2026. I think it makes sense to do that if you're the Panthers. Obviously. It goes without saying this is a pretty massive year for Bryce Young and for what the future of this franchise looks like as it relates to Bryce Young.

[Dave Hellman]

My goal for this section was to not debate whether Bryce Young is a good quarterback.

[Robert Mays]

We don't have to do that. We do.

[Dave Hellman]

We do it every single time. But also independent of that, I just. I think the Panthers made themselves a deeper, better overall team this offseason. And that can only help your quarterback if he needs the extra help.

[Robert Mays]

The quarterback is. He is what he's going to be. Right? Like, there's not. That's not going to change. It's how. What are you doing to put everything you can around the quarterback and the rest of the roster. And I think that they have done a pretty good job of that. Right. Like, they had to spend bigger on some contracts last year that they probably. There's a little bit of buyer's remorse, but I just don't think there's a lot of opportunity costs lost. Like, because you gave to Sean Wharton that contract, because you gave Bobby Brown that contract. That didn't prevent you from paying Jalen Phillips and Devin Lloyd in the way that you wanted to this off season. And so even though they've thrown a lot of money around in the last couple off seasons, I think I get how they've arrived at this point in the moves that they've made. And this is another year where I can support a lot of them. So I'm with you. I'm. I'm buying it. And it was a pretty easy decision. Let's stick in the NFC South.

[Dave Hellman]

The New Orleans theme for this show is NFC south teams.

[Robert Mays]

The New Orleans Saints, who we. We talked about at length last week when we were talking about the messages they sent. I think we'll echo a lot of those thoughts in this conversation. But biggest Additions for the Saints this offseason. David Edwards, 4 for 61, Travis Hn, 4 for 48. I don't think we've really. Maybe we have. I, I think that one kind of happened and we were all just kind of like, okay, I don't really think we've sat with that signing as much as we probably should have. And we could talk about it more at length here, but that just feels like one that I hadn't thought and sat with much this off season. Despite the fact that it was a pretty rich contract for hm.

[Dave Hellman]

I was thinking about it, getting ready for this show and I was debating, what else could you have spent that money on? Maybe it didn't need to be a running back.

[Robert Mays]

We can get, we can dig into that because I do think that's a worthwhile question.

[Dave Hellman]

My looking over it though, I came to the conclusion where I was like, okay, yeah, it is a rich contract for a running back, but if you're trying to help your quarterback, where, where's that money going? I mean, you signed the guard. The receiver market is absolutely insane. Like, we've been over this a hundred times. I don't think the Saints necessarily needed to be shopping for Alec Pierce or even Romeo Dobbs. And especially when you compare that and remember when they signed Travis H. And it was like the Saints and the Chiefs, based on their running back decisions in free agency, probably had a good idea that Jeremiah Love was not going to be a possibility. Well, how correct did that wind up being? And so if you knew you weren't going to have a shot at him, but you really wanted to help your young quarterback, it is a lot of money, but it was probably the best thing they could have done. And then when you wind up with Jordan Tyson in the draft, I think it's fine.

[Robert Mays]

The only thing I'd say looking at the rest of the roster and where they still have a pretty significant hole is would you have rather spent a little bit more money for like a boy Maffe rather than Achan?

[Dave Hellman]

We're gonna, we're gonna get to this with some other teams. My answer, no, I want to help the quarterback. I want to know if I should be excited about Tyler Schuck and if he is going to need a long term deal, he doesn't have a fifth year option. So we got to figure this out even faster. I want as many resources as possible going toward helping Tyler Schuck and helping me figure out if he's my guy. And so I don't have any issue with that. And I don't think I officially said it, but I'm very much buying the Saints off season because like we said, they've been acting normally, which is a nice change of pace, and they have done as much as you could realistically ask them to, to help their quarterback.

[Robert Mays]

I think I land in the same spot with the HN or whatever else you could have done with that money for a couple different reasons. One, I think helping out the quarterback and doing everything you can on offense is a good way to be thinking about this. Two, we've talked about the running back class beyond Jeremiah Love, and just the fact that there were no other options out there. And so this was not the year to be like, oh, you really want to spend $12 million a year on Travis Hn when you can find a guy in the second or third round? Well, you couldn't really find a guy in the second or third round this year. I will still say with the Kenneth Walker thing, him getting $14 million from the Chiefs, that's. I at least understand the strongest argument for that is we need explosiveness. We. That is what we need in the backfield. And that is exactly what Kenneth Walker brings to me. This may, this may be unfair or harsh to Travis Hn. My biggest thing about why Travis Hn for the Saints is he's not 2026 Alvin Camara. That's like the biggest selling point for Achan. Like, if you look at a lot of the underlying metrics, what he's been, he's been fine. But I think their biggest thing right now is we can't go through another season with the running back room that we had in 2025. And if that's your justification for giving him 12 million bucks a year, I still think that's a little bit rich. But when you think about all the alternatives and where else they were going to find that, I get how they arrived here.

[Dave Hellman]

That's, that's the big thing for me. It's really, it's not necessarily an endorsement of Achan. And I think he's a good player. I don't think he's a crazy good player. But where else was this money going to go and was it going to efficiently and effectively help the quarterback? You, you combine it with the David Edwards signing. I mean, the resources on the Saints offensive line are ridiculous. Even if, even if you don't love Cesar ruiz, you have three first round picks, a wonderful center in Eric McCoy when he can stay healthy, and now a $60 million guard. I mean, Travis HN is good enough that he should benefit greatly from that kind of firepower in front of him.

[Robert Mays]

Just amazing how what timing and circumstance does for players. If I had told you at this time last year when we were all trying to figure out if Tank Bigsby would be the number one running back in the Jags, off in the Jags offense, if Travis HN was going to make $12 million a year and be the six, the seventh highest paid running back in the league, I would not have had that on my bingo card. But because of what the market was at the position this year and because of the fact that he played in much better circumstances in last year's Jags offense, you get a guy who we weren't sure if he would win that job last year to now he's making $12 million a year.

[Dave Hellman]

I'd love to. I'd love to know too. You mentioned the draft class, but how much does that draft class really affect things where if six teams have a dire running back need and there's 18 guys with a top 100 sort of grade on the board, how does that affect your willingness to spend that money? Whereas this year it was two and a half guys with that sort of grade. Teams maybe are a little more willing to up their offer if they're not confident about finding that guy on draft weekend.

[Robert Mays]

Well, you, I mean, look at, I have to go back and look at the numbers, but I mean last year's, last year's free agent running back crop, the. There was no one got, no one got paid. Yeah, I mean the, the Najee Harris got $5 million. And part of that is because of the available talent with that group. But I think part of it is because everybody looked at the draft class last year and was like, why am I going to spend 8 million bucks a year on a running back when I could find that guy on day two? And this year that just wasn't the case. And so even if, if you're looking at it in a vacuum, it's pretty rich number for HN again, I can understand how the Saints got there and bringing it back around. I'm with you. I, I buy it. I mean, I buy it for all the reasons we talked about last week. It's just nice to see them operating like a normal NFL team. We like. I liked the draft. Jordan, Tyson, Kristen Miller, Oscar Delp in the first three rounds. It all makes sense to me. Think that maybe you can quibble with some of the details like the money for hn, all of that, but I really like the path they're on. They have $60 million in space for next year. That's an Alava extension is on the table. Like that's probably going to need to happen. So that eats into some of it. But they'll have financial flexibility and then the one position that they didn't really address, that I still feel like, all right, they need somebody else here is going out and getting an edge rusher. But I've been looking at multiple like 20, 27 mocks. Dane put one out, a couple other people and everybody has players available at that position. For the Saints in like the back half of the top 10. There's no way to know. But just as like a theoretical exercise of, all right, if you're on a multi year timeline, you drop in a high quality first round edge rusher next year. If you think about that in totality with the rest of the roster, I can feel pretty good about that as like a multi year plan.

[Dave Hellman]

And again, that all sounds great. When you are convinced of the vision and okay, now we're good enough to win the division, what can we do next? That's not my goal or my expectation for the Saints. Like, I think they're good enough to win the division, don't get me wrong. But we're trying to figure out if Tyler's the guy and if this is all a mirage or if we're actually building on something here. And if, if Tyler Schuck is the man and what he. I mean, he's older for a young player, but he's still only, what, like 26? Like he's not. Yeah, he's 26 years old.

[Robert Mays]

This will be his age. 27.

[Dave Hellman]

No, he's. He's a little bit older than you would prefer. But on the other side of this, if Tyler Schuck is 27 and the Saints look like they're capable of making a real leap next year, if they get an edge rusher, that's a wonderful spot to be like right now. And I would guess, you know, the defense, Derek brings it up all the time. The defense was top 10 in success rate and EPA per play last year. I would guess that probably takes a little bit of a step back when you lose Demario Davis in the middle of that coordinating everything. Elante Taylor is a loss worth bringing up as well. But I think the defense can be more than decent. And at the end of the day, I don't really care that much if Tyler Schuck takes this chance with the offense and runs with it. I mean, I get like, I Guess Devon Vale. I don't love just being the presumed third receiver, but they even threw darts at receiver in the draft as well. I mean, they drafted Bryce, Lance and Barry and Brown. I feel, I feel great about the receiver depth chart as a whole. I mean, this offense looks like a phenomenal spot for a young quarterback to be. And that's, at the end of the day, all I care about.

[Robert Mays]

They've set themselves up well and this is one of those teams. We've talked about it a lot. There's a bunch of different examples of this. You don't have to figure it out in one off season. You don't have to have every hole plugged. You don't have to have every question answered. I think the overall trajectory and direction of where the Saints are, I think it's pretty easy to feel good about it, especially when you compare what this team is right now to how we felt and talked about the Saints a year ago, 18 months ago. And it's just a reminder that the quagmire is always easier to escape than you think it is in the NFL. Like the idea of cap hell. If you take your vegetables for a year, a year and a half, then it was, it was kind of a year and a half, right? They didn't have a ton of financial flexibility this year because they're still dealing with some of the fallout from some of the contracts that they had to move around. But you're talking about like one wasted year when it comes to resources. Maybe another year where you're a little bit kneecapped and then after that you're probably ready to go. And that is just the case for almost every team in the league right now. Like cap stuff, you can get out of pulling yourself out of draft capital shortages over a long period of time, that's harder to escape. And so the Saints are a very good example of even if the cap looks messy, it's probably a shorter term issue than we make it out to be most of the time.

[Dave Hellman]

And on some off chance that when this season is done, we're all sitting there saying, ah, it was a fun six weeks of Tyler Schuck in 2025, though. Like, that's not the end of the world either.

[Robert Mays]

He was the 40th pick in the draft.

[Dave Hellman]

The 40th pick in the draft. And you can pivot if you need to. Not to say I think that's what's going to happen. But yeah, like, the Saints look like they're building towards something nice and they're, they're Also not screwed if they have to pivot away from that either.

[Robert Mays]

Let's call it two full years of having to take your cat medicine.

[Dave Hellman]

That's still not that long of a time.

[Robert Mays]

They have $112 million in dead money right now. So let's, let's call it two full years. That's a safe way to.

[Dave Hellman]

Even if that's fair, let's just remember that at this time last year, they were the prohibitive. Like if you were trying to talk about the team drafting number one, the Saints were the team that most people penciled into that spot. And here we are talking about them as a team that could contend for the division.

[Robert Mays]

All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and chat a little bit about the Commander's off season.

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[Robert Mays]

All right, Washington Commanders brought in David Blau as the OC moved on from Cliff Kingsbury hired Durante Jones as their defensive coordinator. They were very busy in free agency. Adafe Oway Chiga Conquo Leo Chanel Tim Settle Meek Robertson, Nick Cross Kolavin Chasen Small deals for Chris Paul and Rashad White in the draft. That's a shorter list. Sunny Styles in the top 10. Antonio Williams in the third round are you buying or selling the Washington Commanders off season?

[Dave Hellman]

This is the flip side of what I was just talking about with the New Orleans Saints, and I'm selling it. I don't really love what the Washington Commanders have done here, and I'm going to take it back to something that you said a couple weeks ago. I don't remember what show it was, but a couple of weeks ago you said to me, I think Dan Quinn realized coming out of last season fires Cliff Kingsbury and Joe Whit Jr. Total change at the coordinator position. And the commander's offense was second worst in the NFL by any metric. Like, thank God for the Cowboys, making them look one spot better because it was that bad everywhere else. And you said to me if the defense doesn't drastically improve heading into year three, like, if it's, if it's bottom of the barrel again, no matter what happens on offense, everybody's out. And like they're making a total change of coaching staff and we're starting over again. And I get why that would motivate Dan Quinn to want to fix the defense. I don't view that as my problem. And I look at where the Commanders are right now, Year three of a very, very talented quarterback who took them on this seismic run in his rookie year and clearly seems to possess a very rare skill set. And I resent the Commanders for investing so much of their capital on the side of the ball. That's not helping him. And I get it. I know that they were second worst in the NFL and I know that they had a lot of shit that they needed to fix. But the Commanders cut their center before free agency. They're replacing him in house. It looks like it's either going to be Nick Allegretti or a day three draft pick. They signed a tight end and a couple of nice running backs, but the expenditures just are not very.

[Robert Mays]

It's very generous framing.

[Dave Hellman]

I, I like Rashad.

[Robert Mays]

Rashad White's fine.

[Dave Hellman]

I like. I said nice and say great. I like Rashad White. I also, I just love the way that Jaden Daniels, Arizona State teammates just really want to play with him. Like between Brandon Iuk and Rashad White, it's just the Sun Devil reunion over here. But my point, like, okay, you're helping me make my point. This offense is just, it's not up to snuff with where you should be. If you have a guy that's shown you what Jaden Daniels has shown us.

[Robert Mays]

Devil's Advocate. They tried. They tried Alec Pierce, they tried Romeo Dobbs, let's, let's say try harder. Let's say they land one of those guys. Let's say they all right, we're going to go without chase on for 11 million. We're going to go bottom of the barrel with that contract. That's going to be a $3 million player and then we can go where we want to on the Romeo Dobbs contract. How much better would you feel about Washington if that had happened?

[Dave Hellman]

I Will say, and you always say this, like, what are the alternatives? What are the realistic alternatives? I mean, yeah, Romeo Dobbs couldn't be on this team. I would feel better if Romeo Dobbs was on this team. I would feel better if they had splurged on Cade Mays and taken him away from the Lions in free agency or.

[Robert Mays]

This is a crazy one. What if they just don't.

[Dave Hellman]

Don't cut Tyler B. I mean, that's a fantastic point. Still not really sure why that happened. Yeah, I'd feel better if Tyler Batadas was still here. I'd feel better if Cade Mays was here. I'd feel better if they'd gone after Romeo Dobbs. I mean, even. Even having spent a top 100 pick at receiver, the receiver core right now is Terry McLaren. Love him. That's fine. Rookie Antonio Williams. Luke McCaffrey, who I think. Has he caught, like, 18 balls last year?

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, I. I'm not.

[Dave Hellman]

No, Luke.

[Robert Mays]

I'm not taking on Luke McCaffrey.

[Dave Hellman]

Luke McCaffrey has 29 career catches. He only caught 11 balls last year. You got. They brought Diami Brown back. I know that makes you happy. Trailing Burks is still kicking around. Jalen Lane showed some promising stuff as a rookie last year, but again, I mean, we're. We're coping here. This is what we're doing. We're coping. I don't. I. I don't like it. And I know, like, the defense looks like it should be a lot better. That's fine. But I remember saying, how much better, though?

[Robert Mays]

Who knows? That that's where I sit with it,

[Dave Hellman]

is that I better than 31st, which. Is that enough to make you feel like something meaningful was attained here?

[Robert Mays]

I have a hard time figuring out where I land with this team because I'm with you in that. I think the offensive depth chart right now and the lack of help at some of these spots is a little bit underwhelming and even a little bit scary. I still feel like they needed so much help on defense that I understand why they want the direction they did with their resources this off season. That where I land with it is I don't know if I have any huge problems with any specific move or even the strategy overall from them this spring. But when I look at it in totality, I just don't think I'm buying the state of affairs. Like, that's where I land with Washington. Each individual thing, it's like, all right, I get that. I get that. I get that. There's some interesting pieces here. And then I look at the roster and I'm just like eh. And I think a huge portion of that is that you can only get so much better when you're throwing money around on the sort of free agents that are available in any given free agent class right now. And part of my problem, and this is why like I don't, I hate landing in this place and having this answer because this has nothing to really do with this offseason specifically. And that's what we're supposed to be talking about. But I think my issue is this team just has no reinforcements coming. Like there's no young, exciting players there. There are too few young, exciting players on this team.

[Dave Hellman]

I was going to say there are at least a couple because I'm pumped about Sonny Styles.

[Robert Mays]

I mean of course, but I'm that that's beyond Sonny Styles. Like goes without saying. But I'm talking about like the last three or four drafts from this team. I want to read you from two from 2021 through right now. And that's just the. Because those are guys that theoretically 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. So let's do 2022. So you. Because your first round pick of 2022 would still theoretically be on the roster. Here are the top 100 picks from the Washington Commanders over the last five since 2022. Johan Dotson, Federian Mathis, Brian Robinson Jr. Emmanuel Forbes, Robert Quan Martin, Ricky Stromberg, Jaden Daniels, Johnny Newton, Mike Saner, still Ben Sennett, Brandon Coleman, Luke McCaffrey, Josh Connerly, Trey Amos before we get to 2025. And I think that's part of my problem is that you just see how much those draft classes are really hurting them. Like that 2024 class when they had seven top 100 picks. How many of those guys can you truly count on to be like difference making players for them this year?

[Dave Hellman]

2. I remember this was before I joined the show. We did a show about like teams with the, with the most at stake in the draft and we talked about the Commanders and how many big picks they had and how they needed those to hit Jaden Daniels. Even with the injuries last year, you got to feel great about that. But across the rest of the last few years it's, it's just not good enough. I mean, I guess I would say if, if you're a Commander's fan looking for optimism, I mean maybe, maybe Johnny Newton takes another step forward. Maybe you get, maybe Trey Amos can be that guy. Like several of these guys are, not to the point where they're not off the roster and we're not giving up on them.

[Robert Mays]

Not at all.

[Dave Hellman]

But these are. You're hoping for unseen improvement to this point, or, you know, you're hoping for linear improvement where you just can't count on that. I mean, Johnny Newton had five sacks last year. I don't blame people if they don't know that because the commanders were an afterthought by late October. But, you know, if. If a couple of those types of things happen, maybe I would feel differently. But based on what I know, yeah, I agree with you. And 2025 in particular. Obviously they haven't been working with a full deck of cards in the draft either because of the Laramie Tunsil trade. So that stuff compounds upon itself.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, I think there's absolutely a path where the defense is just so much better this year. We don't know what Durante Jones is going to be. I'm excited to watch what that defense is going to look like. It's possible that all of those pieces that they added in the front seven away Chanel, Sunny Styles settle, all that stuff comes together. Chase on where it really does feel like a dynamic group that's unleashed in this very cool way that that's totally possible. I just think it's a tough. It's a tall order, and I think they're really threading a needle that I'm just not sure they can thread. Like, it just feels like we're shuffling around some deck chairs here, and I'm just not sure they're going to get where they need to by the end of this season for this regime to salvage itself.

[Dave Hellman]

Okay, but even if that's true, I mean, not going to jump into the league's elite in one year, I would guess probably not. Like, a realistic jump, to me would be as if they're like in the top half of the league average, which would be incredible after where they were last year.

[Robert Mays]

But that's. That's the problem, I think. Even if they get there, how does the offense get there?

[Dave Hellman]

Is that enough? And that is my point. And the reason I find it so frustrating is I think if he's healthy, Jaden Daniels could be good enough where you don't have to invest this crazy amount of capital for them to be a really, really good offense. If you had Romeo Dobbs to go with Scary Terry and you still draft Antonio Williams and maybe you spend more at running back in free agency and Josh Connerly takes another couple of steps, I could sell myself on that being a pretty damn good offense. If this defense is 14th in the league and Jaden's just fighting for his life every week, what have we accomplished here? I don't. It doesn't seem like it's going to be good to me. I Good enough.

[Robert Mays]

So much is riding on how much of a multiplier your two coordinators are, and I just don't know the answer to that. Like, we just have not seen either of these guys do it. And so I don't know. I think that there is a lot that has to come together where, again, I'm not sure looking at the moves individually and even collectively, that I have a huge problem with how they approach this. I just realized that after all of that money has been spent and looking at where the roster is right now, I just find it a tiny bit underwhelming.

[Dave Hellman]

Funny note that I wanted to make. I think it's very interesting that two different undrafted quarterbacks who spent time with the Detroit Lions and who got started coaching in the NFC east got fast tracked to offensive coordinator at the age of 30. And I don't know if it's a coincidence that Dan Quinn worked with Kellen Moore because David Blau's career arc is shockingly similar. Kellen Moore was a better college quarterback than David Blau, but everything else is it's a pretty eerie similarity.

[Robert Mays]

I'm sure he's open to the idea because of what he saw Kellen Moore do. I'm sure it's not an accident. Let's get to our next one here. The Indianapolis Colts. My the section I have for veteran moves is labeled additions, when in reality for the Colts, they're not additions, they're retainments. Are the big moves that they made kept Daniel Jones 2 for 88, Alec Pierce 4 for 1, 14, traded Michael Pittman in the draft, CJ Allen in the second round, AJ Hulsey in the third round, interior offensive line depth and Jalen Farmer in the fourth round, and then Bruce Bryce Betcher also in the fourth round. I think that's worth mentioning because they needed more linebacker depth and so them getting that additional fourth round pick ends up mattering here. Are you buying or selling the Indianapolis Colts off season?

[Dave Hellman]

Okay, let me preface this by saying I'm not a I'm not afraid of heights in the sense that, like, flying doesn't bother me. Going up in tall buildings doesn't bother me. Looking over the edge doesn't bother me. You'll never, you will never see me skydive or like bungee jump. It's not for me that's never gonna happen. So I was. I say all that to say I buy the Colts off season in the way that I buy. Like, if you spend the money and you watch all the safety videos and you put all the harnessing on and you get up in that airplane and they throw the door open, I buy it. And it's like, jumping is the easiest way to get down. It's not something that I want to do. But I don't blame you for jumping out of the airplane. Like, for where the Indianapolis Colts are and everything that's come before it and all the context that we have about the Ballard era in Indianapolis, I buy why they're doing this. That doesn't necessarily mean that I would want to.

[Robert Mays]

I'm not sure I'm buying it, although I'm not sure they had much of a choice. Yeah, is exactly where I landed with this.

[Dave Hellman]

Like, they painted themselves into a corner, and so they're. They are proceeding with the only logical path. That doesn't mean I think it's a good path, but I don't know what the realistic alternative was.

[Robert Mays]

The Jones thing, obviously, two years and $88 million for Daniel Jones is too much money in a vacuum. Like, Daniel Jones is not worth $44 million a year, and that'd be. If he was healthy, he wouldn't be worth $44 million a year. But if you're the Colts, and it's so easy for us to do this, and I did it in the moment where they're transition tagging Daniel Jones, it's $37 million or whatever it is, and I'm looking at the potential alternatives at quarterback, and I'm like, there is no way that Daniel Jones at $37 million, again, in a vacuum, is a better investment that Kyler Murray at a million dollars a year. He's just not. But if you're the Colts and you're this regime and you're this far down the road and you know this is a make or break year, you've seen it happen with Daniel Jones, and so you are compelled to run it back with Daniel Jones. I don't think you're getting value running it back this way. And I would be terrified if I was doing it, but I also just don't know what the reasonable alternative was for a team that needs to do everything it can to maximize their offense this year doesn't.

[Dave Hellman]

I know the answer. I know it scares the bejesus out of you, but shouldn't that scare the Colts, that they're just chasing Such a fleeting high of eight games.

[Robert Mays]

What's the alternative?

[Dave Hellman]

It's like, that's the problem. You had the best night of your life at this one specific bar and you keep going back hoping for that to recreate itself and it's just never going to be the same.

[Robert Mays]

Just chasing the night for the rest, you're just.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah, you're just chasing that forever.

[Robert Mays]

We're going to have a similar conversation with another quarterback later on this show. I have said this many times this off season where people ask, well, what's the alternative? What's the alternative? Anything. That's how I feel about Rogers with the Colts. At least the Colts were the best offense in the league for half the season last year. At least that is something that's worth chasing, even if it is a fleeting moment, you're never going to hit again. And so the prices, yeah, they, these, they sound insane, especially for the quarterback. But at a certain point, what else were you going to do? Like, what was going to be the alternative of that position this offseason? You were going to start over again after doing what you did for the first half of last year. That was never going to happen.

[Dave Hellman]

I just want to make sure we say. Cause I agree with you. But another part of this too is the Colts are in a hell of their own making. Of course, they, they have done all of these things. They drafted Anthony Richardson, they had to pivot. They decided to trade away two years worth of draft capital for Sauce Gardner off of eight games, which even before Daniel Jones got hurt, we were like, holy shit, that's a hell of a price. Are you sure you're as close as you think you are? We said that on deadline day and that was before things even went south for the Colts. And so I, I don't know. I don't think I'd feel better about this team if, if they. Well, they wouldn't have even been able to draft Ty Simpson. They. I guess they would have had to trade up. But I, I don't think there is a quarterback realistically available that would make me feel better about the Colts. I just know that I, I don't really feel good about how hard they're trying to recreate something that was so fleeting. And for that matter, I think they probably did it right, prioritizing Alec Pierce. But you're still talking about a guy who doesn't have a 50 catch season. And I do feel. I feel a little less good. Put, put the DJ injury aside. Cause we just don't know what the timeline looks like there. But even if he's healthy, I feel a little less good about taking Michael Pittman Jr. Out of this. The thing that.

[Robert Mays]

And without a real replacement.

[Dave Hellman]

Yes.

[Robert Mays]

I mean you look at it, the

[Dave Hellman]

replacement is that they're just asking Alec Pierce to be a more well rounded, high volume receiver.

[Robert Mays]

The other thing is they're going to ask Josh Downs to play a bigger role within the defense and I think he is capable of doing that.

[Dave Hellman]

And they did, they threw, they gave us a little bit of money to Nick Westbrook. Akine, I mean he can be like a field stretcher type of guy. That's the only reason I bring it up.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, I, I, that's that plan. Like the receiving core is undeniably worse than it was last year. Like undeniably without like I think a real replacement for Pittman. I think it'll be fine because I'm a huge fan of both Alec Pierce and Josh Downs. But there's no denying it that it's degraded from last year. And even on the offensive line, we're betting on Jalen Travis. You've never seen him do it before. At a certain point they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

[Dave Hellman]

I will say I was worried about their O line last year and they did. They didn't miss a beat.

[Robert Mays]

They absolutely deserve the benefit of the doubt. But it's hard to keep doing this. This would be an offensive line. I think the only comp that I can make when it comes to the investments at certain positions where you've had this level of success consistently are like a certain version of the Packers. When Bakhtiari was a fourth round pick, Sitting was a fourth round pick, DJ TJ Lang was a fourth round pick, Corey Lindsley was a fifth round. And then Balaga was like the one guy and that's exactly what this is. Quentin Nelson's the one guy that you've invested in and everyone else are these mid round picks that you've gotten the most out of. That obviously is working for them, but it's still a tall order for it to work every single time.

[Dave Hellman]

I just can't get over the idea that they're, they're doing, they're doing the best they can in the circumstances that face them, I think. But the circumstances are all of their own design. Like their choices led them to these circumstances. So I don't feel that sorry for them and I don't completely buy that they're going to recreate last year mainly because of the injury. If, if Daniel Jones was fully healthy, I'd probably feel different, differently. But it's an Achilles. He is a guy that depends on his mobility more than some, and that scares me. And the alternative is going back to Anthony Richardson, who showed up to OTAS this week because his trade request hasn't gone through. So that's great. That's all fun. I don't know. I just. I don't love it. I don't love it, Robert. And it sucks because I did love the Colts so much for eight weeks in 2025, and I'm just dubious that. That I will.

[Robert Mays]

Again, I'll say this kind of my parting thought here. If they had actually signed Trey Hendrickson like they were trying to, I think I would be like, all right, this is the best they could have done. And I honestly do think, like, with the guys they drafted, with C.J. allen and Halsey likely having to play pretty early and them getting guys at those positions at linebacker and SAF specifically, that they kind of. They really, really needed. If they had managed to sign Trey Hendrickson before the Ravens did, I think I'd be like, all right, this box that they've built for themselves, this prison that they've constructed of their own making, they've maximized whatever life is inside that box. But missing out on Hendrickson, that's. That's one of my biggest issues here, is that I just wonder, is the defense going to have enough juice for this to all come together in the very difficult way you need it to for 2026? And I'm just. I don't know the answer to that without a presence like that on the edge for them.

[Dave Hellman]

That's totally fair. And maybe I'm giving Luanna Rumo a little too much credit, but I do, especially with C.J. allen and Halsey in the mix. Throw in Bryce Betcher. I like the. I like the back of the defense a lot. And Anna Rumo is a tinkerer. He can do some wild shit and bring pressure in creative ways. I love that he brought Cam Taylor Britt to Indianapolis. Just classic coach reuniting with his guy.

[Robert Mays]

They also love Justin Wally last year. They were so excited about Justin Wally last year during training camp. And so hopefully they have more cornerback depth than they had a year ago when they were dealing with. I mean, we. We all remember what the Xavian Howard experience looked like in the first half of last year, and so hopefully now we're three or four deep at corner for the Colts. That was not the case a year ago.

[Dave Hellman]

I think the defense would be enough for me to feel Confident that this could be a pretty darn good team. If I felt more confident about the quarterback and maybe Daniel Jones will prove me wrong. I don't. I mean, injuries are especially soft tissue. Ligament injuries are tricky to project, but I just don't have a lot of confidence right now.

[Robert Mays]

The Minnesota Vikings Next one here. Vikings off season additions Kyler Murray, James Pierre were really their two biggest things they did in free agency. It was not an active free agent period for the Vikings. They also traded Jonathan Garnard during the draft. In the draft, Caleb Banks in the first round, Jake Golday in the second round, Dominique Orange and Caleb Tiernan in the third round with one of those Jonathan Garnard picks. And then, or maybe Jacoby Thomas, who they drafted at safety is with one of them. They had three third round picks. So are you buying or selling the Minnesota Vikings off season?

[Dave Hellman]

The Vikings are a testament to just how much can change over the busy two month stretch of the off season. Because with everything that's happened, deals they've done, bringing in Kyler Murray, the draft, I was getting ready for this show and I was a little annoyed with the Vikings where I was like, we feel so good about going 9 and 8 with bad quarterback play that all we really did was sign Kyler Murray. Guys like, I don't, I don't know, like, does that and, and James Pierre, like, is that enough? And then getting my notes in order and just remembering the way the offseason has gone, I was like, oh right, they didn't have any money. They were $43 million over the cap.

[Robert Mays]

That's all the money. Yes.

[Dave Hellman]

So in, in light of that, in light of the Vikings being very hamstrung by their finances, I do buy what they've done this off season. I mean they still have a really good roster. It's not as if they had to do a ton. I would like it if they could do a little bit more on offense. And we did hear that Juwan Jennings visited Minneapolis after the draft. So that would be really fun. But just improving the quarterback situation unequivocally for $1.6 million is great. Flew under the radar, but they did resign Eric Wilson, which I really liked.

[Robert Mays]

Eric Wilson was really good for them last year.

[Dave Hellman]

Eric Wilson was awesome last year. Considering, considering the financial restraints. I buy what they've done. I said it right after the draft. I'm very curious about. And maybe this isn't what happened, but with no GM there, Brzezinski was running it during draft weekend and now they're Going to hire a gm. Maybe it'll be him. But their draft looks to be a situation where Brian Flores broke in and pressed all the buttons. Brian Flores was like, there's no power structure. It's all mine. So you get Caleb Banks, Jake Golday, Dominique Orange. I mean, they redid the D tackle room in 24 hours and Golday looks like a Van Ginkel protege if I've ever seen one in my life. And Jacoby Thomas as well. So with the. I mean, with the exception of Caleb Tiernan, Brian Flores got all his guys. And so maybe that's not what happened, but that's what it looks like. I'm. I'm curious, are you okay with that?

[Robert Mays]

I. I think I'm okay with it. Based on like the. If you look at the guys they needed on defense, it's interesting because it, I do think even with some of the questions about corner and safety as it currently is constructed at corner, this team signing James Pierre, I think you could make a very serious argument that they're better off at corner and deeper at corner with just the James Pierre signing than they even were last year. That that was a thin group last season. Safety is going to be the question, right? I get 800 snaps from Harrison Smith last year. What does that group look like with him gone? Like, that's. Those are the two areas on defense where I thought they might do something. I mean, every single person had them drafting Dylan Thienaman with the 18th overall pick. They didn't end up doing that. But at the same time, they. I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt some of the way. We talked about the Colts offensive line, the Vikings secondary and what they have done with Flores, They've done a really good job of getting by with modest additions at those spots. Even last year when their big move was signing Isaiah Rogers, they were still a top five defense. When guys were healthy along the defensive line, when they had Van Ginkel and Bernard at certain points last year after both of them were banged up. And so them, after having to move on from those expensive defensive tackles they signed last year, remaking that room as a priority. I understand that it's like if our front works, we'll be able to get by on the back end. And so even if there are some highly volatile picks there, some picks that do feel like Brian Flores kind of wrestling away the keys and doing what he wanted, I still think you can kind of justify all of them as a whole when you look at like the state of the roster and where

[Dave Hellman]

they needed help it doesn't bother me in the sense that I don't trust Brian Flores to know what he's doing. It does make me a little bit nervous. And this is just a, this is a highly fallible rule of thumb. But like, the Vikings offense is the same.

[Robert Mays]

It's.

[Dave Hellman]

I mean, it's worse technically because you lose a guy like Jalen Naylor to Vegas, but.

[Robert Mays]

And Ryan Kelly's gone too. Ryan Kelly was hurt for half of last year.

[Dave Hellman]

You've brought no new blood into an offense that maybe, I mean, it's easy to argue they don't necessarily need it. If you've got those receivers. Is that, is that accurate, though? Like, I think it might not really add any meaningful help to that side of the ball.

[Robert Mays]

I think that's. I, I think that might be accurate for, for two reasons. I think the biggest issues that the Vikings had last year offensively were quarterback play and offensive line health. So if the offensive line is healthier and now it's beyond even being healthier, you've protected yourself in the short term and then have plans for the long term with the offensive line like them. Well, even signing Ryan Vandermerk to that, to the offer sheet where the Bills had a chance to match them, making sure their swing tackle was solidified this year after dealing with, dealing with what they did last year, I think makes sense. And then Tiernan is a. All right, if he can be the swing guy this year, he can be deaf for us this year. And then after Brian o' Neill moves on after the season is. He's somebody we can slot in. He's our long term right tackle. So them protecting themselves up front, potentially getting better health from that group and adding Kyler Murray, I think you could make a very serious argument that is enough for the Vikings offense to feel considerably different than it did a year ago.

[Dave Hellman]

My pushback would just be. It's rarely that easy in this very physical, injury riddled sport. And the receiver core looks great. If Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison are available. What if one of them's not? Receiver depth is definitely, you know, if

[Robert Mays]

they sign Juan Jennings, how much better do you feel?

[Dave Hellman]

A plus across the board.

[Robert Mays]

Okay.

[Dave Hellman]

Like I'm the teacher in a Christmas story, just writing plus all the way down.

[Robert Mays]

And I think even the Gold Day thing, you know, that's a year in advance because Ben Inkles can be a free agent after the year. But I do think that they've had to like, reset a little bit. I mean, they spent last year with the idea that they would be in this rookie quarterback contract window and they'd be able to operate that way. That window is closed. Like they are out of that window now that they have Kyler Murray. Kyler Murray is going to be the goal next year if you're the Colts, or excuse me, if you're the Vikings.

[Dave Hellman]

I can see why you would do that.

[Robert Mays]

Well, it's because the goal for the Vikings is to give Kyler Murray the Daniel Jones contract if the best thing that could happen to the Vikings this off season is that Kyler Murray is worth $45 million a year based on the way that he played.

[Dave Hellman]

And that's. And that is why at the end of the day, with all my quibbling, I unequivocally buy this because I like him more than a lot of people do. But in terms of short term answers at quarterback gambles at quarterback, upside signings, Kyler Murray's far and away the guy that gives his team the best chance to find an answer for the long term was free. That's my point.

[Robert Mays]

He was free.

[Dave Hellman]

So the off season is a win for no other reason than that they pivot, pivoted off of a quarterback implosion and, and appear to be in a really, really good situation and pivot off

[Robert Mays]

a quarterback implosion in the best way

[Dave Hellman]

that you possibly, possibly can.

[Robert Mays]

The, the other teams that have done this, right, like I look at the Steelers and the free guys that they've signed, those. That's Russell Wilson and Aaron Rodgers deep into their mid-30s. Kyler Murray right now. How old is Kyler Murray right now?

[Dave Hellman]

See, even like he's 20.

[Robert Mays]

28.

[Dave Hellman]

I was going to say 28.

[Robert Mays]

This is Keller Murray's age 29 season and you got him for free in terms of dismounts from disastrous first round quarterback picks. Kyler Murray for a million dollars about as well as you can do.

[Dave Hellman]

Which it's. Thank you for reminding me of the full picture because I buy it for no other reason than that. And yeah, I could quibble about the receiver depth or, you know, how well the Caleb Banks pick pans out or how much they love or regret that pick in the future. But. But definitely a win. An easy, an easy buy for Minnesota.

[Robert Mays]

All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and chat a little about the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

[Dave Hellman]

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[Robert Mays]

The Bucs off season Sign Zach Robinson or hired and signed Zach Robinson Hired Zach Robinson to be their offensive coordinator after moving on from Josh Gazard. Brought back Kate Otten, signed Alexander Loney 2 years 17 million Kenny Gainwell 2 years 14 million 1 year deals for Asan Robinson and Aladeen Muhammad. They lost Mike Evans in free agency, something that's worth remembering in the draft Ruben Bane in the first round, linebacker Josiah Trotter in the second round, wide receiver Ted Hurst in the third round, Keontae Scotts the nickel from Miami in the fourth round Are you buying or selling the Tampa Bay Buccaneers off season?

[Dave Hellman]

We talked about this on the rebuilding show that we did for this series and we put the Titans in our shopping cart and we just kind of left them there. That's how I feel about the Bucks. But there's one very obvious thing that they could do to make this a buy for me and it could happen before they ever play a game. I think they should extend Baker Mayfield. And if they were to extend Baker Mayfield, then I would be in on the vision and I would say this is a firm Buy for me.

[Robert Mays]

Why would that make you feel so much better?

[Dave Hellman]

Because it would give me clarity of vision of what the Bucks are thinking and where they're trying to go. And I think, interesting. Assuming, Assuming he's not going to set the top of the market, which I don't think that he would. I think Baker is probably the Buccaneers best chance at a quarterback answer over the next three years. Like, I'd rather have Baker under contract for three more seasons than try to venture out into the wilderness. And so resigning Baker just gives me a blueprint that I can follow. Like, even if Todd Bowles isn't the long term coach in Tampa Bay, if Baker's there, then you can use Baker to attract whichever coach wants to work with him. I would, I mean, if you do change coaches at any point, I would try to get an offensive one, but it just, it starts with the quarterback and it's so much easier that way. And, and if the Buccaneers are building a blueprint with that in mind instead of like, well, he's in a contract year, I don't know, how good are we going to be that's going to determine so much about this? It's, it's. Put it this way, I don't think the Bucks are going to win the super bowl this year. And if that's the case and Baker Mayfield's not under contract, then where's this all leading? But if you're extending Baker Mayfield and trying to set the Runway, I mean, I love their draft class. I feel so much better about the Buccaneers now than I did three weeks ago. If we're laying out groundwork for a three or four year vision where you replenish this thing with some draft picks and Baker's the quarterback that's going to make it all go and you're saving a little bit of money because he's the 10th highest paid quarterback instead of the second highest paid quarterback, I'm getting there. I can get on board with that vision of the Bucks, but right now I just kind of feel like they're in limbo. And I can't wait to hear your response to this.

[Robert Mays]

I kind of feel like they're in limbo and I think that's maybe why they're not committing to one of these paths. Because if I'm Jason Light, I can understand the thought process of being open to. All right. If we get to the end of this season and we're an 8 and 9, 9 and 8 team and we move on from bowls, should any possible path forward be on the Table, including going a new direction at quarterback and I think in a way also just kind of hit and reset a little bit with certain elements of the roster. Like if you look at what they are in 2027 financially, Chris Godwin's making $30 million a year in his age 31 season. They can move on from Godwin after this season. Vidova is a free agent after this year and there just aren't that many contracts like Zion McCollum is really the only non offensive line like and Twan Winfield are really the only non offensive line like big contracts that this team is committed to. And so I really do think, like if they get to the end of this season there it's possible where it's like we're going to take a slight step back, we're going to let it get a little bit younger. Are they a team that suddenly is in like the quarterback market in next year's draft? Because that's the direction they want to go.

[Dave Hellman]

They're going to be in the quarterback market, picking somewhere between 14th and 23rd.

[Robert Mays]

You could easily move up if you wanted to. Or do you feel you. I just wonder if they're open to potentially hitting reset after this year in a way that includes more than the coaching staff and that's maybe why they're not overly excited to commit to Baker long term. See, I don't even know if I agree with that thought, but I can understand them approaching it that way because I think so much beyond this season specifically is uncertain for this franchise.

[Dave Hellman]

See, I. And I guess that's my point is if we're just looking at it in a vacuum, let's say the Bucks really aren't married to Baker and they're willing to let him walk and this is the team that's supposed to get them over the hump, then I'm. I'm selling that I don't see the Bucks as ready to compete on that level.

[Robert Mays]

I think that's kind of why I'm selling it.

[Dave Hellman]

But if, again, if you were to get Baker under contract and we're sort of refreshing this thing and we can work toward being that team in a year or two, so that's easier for me to understand than thinking that this team is going to be the one that gets it done or else we're blowing it up, maybe not even blowing it up. Obviously they got a lot of good pieces in place, but changing quarterback at the very least.

[Robert Mays]

I don't know what to make of this team. I'll be honest about that. I really don't. Like, I can see a path where the offense is considerably better this year just because it's healthier. I mean, this was one of the most injured teams in the league on offense last year. Even something as simple as, oh, they don't have Mike Evans anymore. They barely had him last year. He played for half the season. The offensive line was decimated.

[Dave Hellman]

That's. If, if the offensive line in Tampa could stay really healthy, like better than average health, it could be a big equalizer for this team. That is the one thing I would say. I don't know if that's enough to change your opinion of them, but I think part of it, even if they're

[Robert Mays]

healthier, I think part of it is that this idea that we have of what the bucks were in 20, 24 offensively, I just don't think that's walking back through the door. And I don't even know if even like a slightly diminished version of that is walking through the door. Like, if. What do you think is the best case scenario, even if they're healthier for a Bucks offense coordinated like Zach Robinson in terms of like where they finish this year?

[Dave Hellman]

Best case scenario, fringe top 10, like 9, 10, 11, 12.

[Robert Mays]

That's. I probably agree with that. And then what's the defense average?

[Dave Hellman]

I don't know. I, like I said, I, I love the draft class. Like, I really think.

[Robert Mays]

You really think Josiah Trotter, even if you're excited about him, you really think in year one, don't undersell the first

[Dave Hellman]

part of this thing.

[Robert Mays]

Of course, I like the main thing is if they hadn't drafted Reuben Bane in the first round, by the way, I'd be selling this as hard as I possibly could. But I'm also wondering.

[Dave Hellman]

I was out on the Bucks pretty firmly before the draft.

[Robert Mays]

Are we reading too much into one pick in the middle of the first round being what is going to save the Tampa Bay Buccaneers season? I. I think we might be just because we never imagined a scenario where Ruben Bane would be on the roster.

[Dave Hellman]

It's not so much Ruben Bane saving the Buccaneers, but Reuben Bain. And this. This would hinge on him being the guy that a lot of people think he can be, which again, he's a historical outlier. So believe in that as much as you want to. But Reuben Bain joining a front with Yaya Diaby, Vita Vea and hopefully a healthy Kalija can see I can get pretty on board with that. Like, I, I feel very strongly about that and we brought it up after the draft The Buck secondary a lot of fun secondaries in the NFC south, for whatever that's worth. We talked about the Falcons as well, but the Buck secondary is just loaded with Goblins in my opinion. And Keonte Scott is the latest one to the point where I don't even know what they do with the guy because Jacob Parrish was such a good nickel for them last year. But they have, they have seven DBs that I either know I like or I at least feel good about.

[Robert Mays]

And then I think they're, they're as an idea, they are more exciting. And then what they actually are in practice right now for sure because they're so young. It's the idea that is exciting. I, I think the actual young. The reality is maybe a little bit less exciting than you're making it outspace.

[Dave Hellman]

But several of them I think have at least shown it with some degree of consistency. I mean, Jacob Parish was freaking awesome last year. He was so good. Tyke Smith I like a lot. Obviously Antoine Winfield Jr. Is the man. Maybe I'm assigning too much optimism to a guy who wound up being a fourth round pick in Keante Scott.

[Robert Mays]

I mean, and Benjamin Morrison too. I think Benjamin Morrison is still like a. What's Benjamin Morrison?

[Dave Hellman]

Benjamin Morrison I'm a little less willing to go to bat for because he was just in and out of the lineup. But some of these other guys I just think need more opportunity. I guess we'll see.

[Robert Mays]

I think I will admit, I think

[Dave Hellman]

the totality of this because remember like the Bucks defense last year, especially at the end of the year, was just outright bad. Like they were just not good and

[Robert Mays]

the front was decimated. Yeah, right. Like, and that. That's part of it. Right. And so how much better are they going to be on offense when they're healthier and on defense if they just have more bodies up front, I'm open to them being considerably better than they were at the end of last year. But I think two things are lingering with me. What how bad the end of last year felt. And it felt really bad on both sides of the ball. And then two, I think I just. And this is not the exercise and I don't want it to be coloring it as much as it is. I kind of think that the Bulls thing has just run its course and like that's where I sit with it. And so it's just hard for me to excited about buying the rest of it when that's just how I feel about where this regime is right now

[Dave Hellman]

overall, even if that's true. And I don't blame you for feeling that way. I go back to my point where if you sign Baker and when the season ends, you're interviewing candidates. Let's say the season just doesn't go well and Todd Bowles is out, you're interviewing candidates and it's like we have Baker for X amount of time. This is what our finances look like. This is what we've got. Emeka Buca had another nice season. That's a really strong selling point. The offensive line is all under contract. They're going to be here. I think you can entice viable candidates to Tampa with that sort of vision. Whereas if Baker's gone after the year and you're changing head coaches and the head coach you like is not a Baker guy, well, now we're blowing the whole thing up and maybe that, maybe in a long enough timeline that's a good thing, but it's just not this team and it's a hard thing to buy. Whereas I could at least sell myself on a long term vision of the Baker Mayfield Buccaneers as being a pretty good team. To go back to the question you were just asking me. Like, like if the Bucks offense hovers between 12th and 15th and the defense is similar in the NFC south, that'll, that'll probably be pretty damn good. Like if they're on the good side of average on both sides of the ball, which I think they could be, that's, that's going to be pretty good in this division. I would guess.

[Robert Mays]

This is probably unfair to Baker. Here's what I'll say. I think committing to and we don't let's just throw a random number on it. Let's say Baker is the 15th best quarterback in the league. I think overpaying for the 15th best quarterback in the week is easier to justify when you're doing everything you can to squeeze the last drop out of something than it is if you feel like you're turning the page a little bit. Like for the Colts, it's like what the else were they going to do? Like they had to do this with Daniel Jones. I don't think the Bucks necessarily have to commit to that tier of quarterback play. Even I think bigger's been better than Daniel Jones. But you know what I'm saying, Like outside of the top 10, like you're paying the sticker price for these guys in a way that you weren't when you for sign Baker.

[Dave Hellman]

Sure.

[Robert Mays]

Do you have to commit to that life if you know you're turning the Page a little bit. Anyway, I. I don't think you do. And I think that's probably at least in the back of Jason Light's mind as to why they haven't pulled the trigger on this quite yet.

[Dave Hellman]

I know so much shit that we could never predict is going to happen and a quarterback that's not on our radar right now will probably be worth a starting contract when this season is over.

[Robert Mays]

Maybe not though. Maybe maybe not so.

[Dave Hellman]

Well, what I was going to say is like, let's just. Let's say the Bucks undershoot everything. Let's say the bucks go like 7 and 10 for one reason or another. But no, 7 and 10 is probably bad enough that you really are in range for a quarterback. But like if they go. If they go 8 and 9, 9 and 8 and miss the playoffs, do you. Do you really have a path to that quarterback? Like, are the Bucks bad enough to where they're going to have an easy path to the next guy, or would you rather just try to get Baker under contract? And I will, I'll cash this again by saying like if, if Baker wants to be near the top of the market, then that changes my opinion where I'm like, okay, we're not on the same page about this, but if I can get Baker signed to a reasonable increase on his current deal to where he's still a discount of a starting quarterback.

[Robert Mays]

But I think that's harder to do with the Daniel Jones thing existing. Like the price point is set.

[Dave Hellman]

What's DJ comes out to what, like

[Robert Mays]

45, 45 a year.

[Dave Hellman]

But the top what's. And. But where's 45 rank? You do you have it in front of you? Like where's 45 as a salary? It's not even that high anymore. That's the crazy thing.

[Robert Mays]

45 is. Would be quarterback 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. It would be quarterback 11.

[Dave Hellman]

I could live with Baker signing on probably as is like quarterback eight because

[Robert Mays]

like, I just don't know if I. I just don't know if I feel comfortable with that.

[Dave Hellman]

If you are willing to sign that far below market value. The law of averages to me just says like you're going to get pushed down quickly and Baker will be QB15, like 15, not 15 months, but like a year and a half after he signs that deal. That's typically the way this stuff works works. And so I just think that I could make my peace with it.

[Robert Mays]

My problem is like the, the benefits of having a quarterback in that range, like you start to lose them. I know if you start paying them

[Dave Hellman]

to that level, it's a difficult needle to thread where you're like, all right, I'll, I'll pay you up to a certain point. But, yes, we are losing the benefit of the savings once we go too far. I don't know what that number is, but I still think, like I said, assuming Baker's not gunning for top five money, I still think Baker's probably the best realistic option in front of the Bucks. I don't know. Do you wanna. Mac Jones will be available in 2026. Is that fun? Is that, is that a drastic improvement on Baker?

[Robert Mays]

Mayfield, I don't wanna sit with the options. I just understand why they haven't necessarily committed to this path moving forward.

[Dave Hellman]

I'm. Like I said, the, the Bucks are in limbo for me. They're just sitting in my cart. And yeah, I, I think clarity of vision with Baker is probably their best chance at getting where they want to go over the next three years. But maybe I'm wrong.

[Robert Mays]

Speaking of teams that have clarity of vision at quarterback, let's talk about the Pittsburgh Steelers coaching moves this off season. Brought in Mike McCarthy, Patrick Graham as the defensive coordinator, trade for Michael Pittman. Signed Jamel Dean, Brought in Brock Hoffman as offensive lineup. I don't know why I put that in there. Rico Dowdle, Jaquan Brisker on one year deals in the draft. Max Ahonach in the first round, Jeremy Bernard in the second round, Jennings Dunker in the third round, along with Drew Aller and Dalen Everett. Are you buying or selling the 2026 Pittsburgh Steelers off season?

[Dave Hellman]

I'm selling. I want to. I want to like this team so much more than I do.

[Robert Mays]

So what's holding you back?

[Dave Hellman]

Why I don't want to do the Aaron Rodgers thing again. Why that's it, though?

[Robert Mays]

Why that's. That's the only thing holding you back?

[Dave Hellman]

Honestly? Yeah. Because so many other things, like almost anyone else, unless they just. Unless they just signed a quarterback that we all knew isn't good enough. Almost any other option would be more intriguing to me because. And, and I'll admit it is, it's a little bit of the mystery box thing. Like, oh, a new quarterback, there's no telling what that could be, but at least it would be new and different with the potential for something more than what we've gotten used to with Pittsburgh.

[Robert Mays]

If Rogers was the 15th best quarterback in the league last year, that argument of, well, the mystery box is like, there's a chance he's not even as good as Aaron Rodgers. Why would you do this? He wasn't the 15th best quarterback in the league last year. That's the problem to me is that the idea of, well, if you sign Malik Willis, like, what if he's just outright bad? You mean like Aaron Rodgers was last year? Like that. That's why it's hard for me to get on board with the, the lack of, the, the lack of openness to alternatives. And it's because I just think he was outright not good last year. And so getting running that back again, I feel like the downside potential of some of the other things you could have sought out are no worse than running it back with Aaron Rodgers again. And the upside is there is like a theoretical upside there that just doesn't exist with him right now.

[Dave Hellman]

I will, I will take some 20, 25 Aaron Rodgers memories with me and I will cherish them. I said this during the course of

[Robert Mays]

this Three throws in the Ravens game. Fun.

[Dave Hellman]

Three throws in the Ravens game.

[Robert Mays]

Great.

[Dave Hellman]

The Thursday night shootout with Flaco was cinema. It was so fun. I had.

[Robert Mays]

That doesn't count.

[Dave Hellman]

I had a blast.

[Robert Mays]

Defense was involved in that. That does not count.

[Dave Hellman]

The Detroit game was amazing. Doing everything in his power to not give up the sack record to Miles Garrett was very funny even. And then when he would, when he stands behind the pile, when Connor Hayward's doing the QB sneak and just points at the line. It's hilarious every single time. I had. I had a legitimately pretty good time watching Aaron Rodgers last year. I just don't need to do it again. It was. It wasn't good enough that we need to sign up for 17 more weeks of it. It was.

[Robert Mays]

Makes one of us, buddy. I did not have a good time.

[Dave Hellman]

Look, I understand. I know it wasn't actually statistically good. It was not viable on a week in and week out basis. But like for me, as somebody who admired his play for a lot of my life, I had, I had some good moments and I just like to leave it that way. I why are we signing back up for this? It's either not going to go as well or it's going to go exactly as well. And the Steelers will be boring to watch half the time and sneak into the playoffs and look like they don't belong there. Why are we doing this again? For that matter, why are we doing Mike McCarthy? Why? Like why. When you, when you part ways with Mike Tomlin, why are we just signing up for a very similar sort of situation?

[Robert Mays]

It's a Great question.

[Dave Hellman]

The funny thing is Mike McCarthy, actually, I always make sure to give him the credit. Like, he really raised the floor for those Cowboys teams. The Cowboys could not be counted on to make the playoffs reliably before Mike McCarthy got there. And he took them there three straight times. But what did they do when they got to the playoffs two out of the three years? They embarrassed themselves. And so, like, that would, like, this was what the, the ceiling the Steelers are already trying to break through. And they're doing it with a guy who struggled at that at his last stop and a guy who's been around the NFL block so many times at this point. It's just not, it's not new. It's not overly interesting. That applies to multiple aspects of the Steelers organization right now. And the annoying thing is I like the roster. I like a lot of stuff they got going on there, but arguably the two most important jobs in the building are just so uninteresting.

[Robert Mays]

It's almost exactly where I went. My, my note in the buying or selling. Buying the roster, selling the vision. That's how I feel about the Steelers right now. I, I buy the roster. I actually think it's, I really like a lot of the stuff that they did. I think the pieces fit together in a very cool way. Like, I can get on board with almost every single move they made. I think the Pittman and Dean moves are built for a shorter timeline than the Steelers probably should be on, given how young some of the, like, important pockets of the roster are. But I, I, if you're trying to build the best football team you can in 2026, I can understand both of those moves.

[Dave Hellman]

Well, also, the, the message we're getting from the Steelers, loud and clear, is they're not willing to go through growing pains or like, grow as a team and a roster anyway.

[Robert Mays]

And I think some people, when you criticize a move like that, their response is like, well, the Steelers are never going to tear it down. You don't have to tear it down. You have a lot of, like, young talent on the roster. You just don't have to sign kind of players in the twilight of their careers or in the autumn of their careers when you could give those opportunities to younger people like it that I, I'm fine with it, though. That's not like, neither of those moves are like, diminish or take away or ruin all the other things that they did. My thing is just that I just don't know what, how this is all supposed to come together. Like, because I just don't know what the quarterback plan is supposed to be. So like the vision in terms of like what the Steelers want to accomplish on a multi year basis that I just don't understand. And I'm selling, I think the quality of the roster right now for 24 of the 25 spots that are really important, I can get behind. But when you can't get behind the quarterback and you can't get behind the ceiling outcomes for the coaching staff, it's just harder to support. Mike McCarthy is a very competent head coach. He's won a lot of football games. It's very hard to do that. I just don't know if he's the guy I would have hired if I had the opportunity to take the franchise in a new, exciting direction.

[Dave Hellman]

Stop me if you've heard this before. The Steelers could absolutely make the playoffs. So what? It's just, I mean, it's a shitty place to be. Cause, I mean, that is an accomplishment. It's not an easy thing to do, but I just, I feel like we're signing up for the same ride all over again. I mean, if Kyler Murray or Malik Willis was the quarterback of this team, I'd be pretty excited to watch them. And the Steelers will probably be a pretty good team. It's just. It's not very interesting to me.

[Robert Mays]

I'm at least open to the possibility. I think Steelers fans would make this argument that the shortcomings on offense last year were more about the play caller and the help and the skill position spots that Aaron Rodgers had outside of DK Metcalf. I'm open to that being true. I just don't think it is. I think the way he's playing the position right now ultimately is going to hold them back enough where even with some impressive additions and some thoughtful additions and how the pieces are all supposed to fit together with both the line and the skill position talent, it's just not going to be enough. And if it's not going to be enough in 2026, what's the plan going to be in 2027? Like they're going to be in a spot. I just have to imagine they're going to be in a spot where they're drafting 20th overall again. And in the best case scenario, if they make the playoffs and stumble in, they have the 20th overall pick, Rodgers cannot be a viable option for them next year. And you sit there and think, all right, who's the quarterback? Maybe it's Baker Mayfield.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah. I mean, one nice thing about where the Steelers are and where they insist on being is you open yourself up to being the team that goes after that guy in any given year. And right now their wagon is hitched to Aaron Rodgers, but that maybe next year the options will be more attractive and younger and with a higher ceiling. I guess that's a, that's a nice way to look at it. Like if this is how you're going to insist on operating and, and the quality of your roster keeps you from being a team that can really go after a top tier quarterback in the draft, maybe eventually we'll get to a year or we'll get to a situation with the Sealers where they land on that guy at quarterback and it could be their, they need Darnold, their Sam

[Robert Mays]

Darnold, that's what they need.

[Dave Hellman]

Or their Daniel Jones, whatever. I mean, they don't have to win the super bowl, they just have to find a guy with a higher ceiling than what we've seen over the last few years.

[Robert Mays]

And again, I think, because that's still a possibility, I, I, I can buy enough of what they've done because I do like the roster. But in terms of the short term, like vision for what this team is supposed to be, it's just hard for me to buy with the quarterback. Last one here. Cincinnati Bengals signed Boya Mafe, Brian Cook and Jonathan Allen in free agency. Traded for Dexter Lawrence in the draf Cassius Howell in the second round. Connor Lou seems like a long term plan for them on the interior offensive line in the fourth round. And then Takario Davis, right, was the third round pick a cornerback? I didn't write that down, but I just wanted to get it in there. Are you buying or selling the Cincinnati Bengals off season?

[Dave Hellman]

It would be disingenuous not to buy the Bengals stepping outside of their comfort zone. And I kind of ranted about it a couple weeks ago. But it matters that Cincinnati of all teams swung a trade like the Dexter Lawrence trade. It's just such a departure from everything that we've seen from them. And on top of that, they didn't splash insane amounts of cash, but they gave out $35 million in guarantees on the first couple days of free agencies to, to Boy Mafe and Brian Cook. And I remember they got criticized for that because they wound up adding Jonathan Allen. But after the two big signings, everybody was like, that's it, that's, those are the saviors of Cincinnati. And then you add Dexter Lawrence to it and you're like, all of a sudden this looks a hell of a lot better. I will say just to be consistent. It's always, it's always interesting when a team does no work on the offensive side of the ball and that's what happened here. But if any team can get away with it, I think it's the Cincinnati Bengals. Like it bothers me less for them than for other teams and I actually very under the radar. I love Connor Lou as a day three draft pick in Cincinnati. Very highly rated center. A lot of people thought of him as the best center in the class. He tore his ACL in October and wound up in round four. They draft him, he doesn't need to start right now. He can be your center of the future. It's the type of thing Philly would do and we would applaud the shit out of them for doing it. And so for Cincinnati to do that, I love. I don't know if he's going to help them in 2026, but. But I think that's a fantastic use of day three draft capital. So yeah, the offense is the same, but if anybody's going to run it back, I think it can be Cincinnati and making the biggest move. Is that the, that's the biggest move of the 2026 off season, at least in terms of during a top 10 pick? Yeah, yeah.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, probably.

[Dave Hellman]

So, yeah, I, I buy it completely. And the. The Bengals Cowboys similarities are so funny. We don't, we don't need this to be a top tier defense for Cincinnati to get where they want to go. They just need to. And I can convince myself that the Bengals have done that enough to where if Joe Burrow can stay on the field, this team can do what they want.

[Robert Mays]

I hope they've done enough to get there. I still don't know the answer, but I think what they've done, at the

[Dave Hellman]

very least, it's hard to criticize.

[Robert Mays]

I don't criticize even.

[Dave Hellman]

It might not be enough. I will. The fact that the linebackers are completely the same. Oh, that's the other Cowboys parallel where I'm like, ooh, I feel good about a lot of this. I'm just going to ignore the linebacker situation. That yeah, it's, it's worth mentioning whether

[Robert Mays]

it's good enough to get them over the top, I don't know. But I buy the plan for 2026. Still surprised they did nothing at linebacker.

[Dave Hellman]

I love when we're sympatica that that's

[Robert Mays]

really kind of where I sit with this everything else. They remade the front seven, right? They like almost completely remade it with dropping Dexter Lawrence in the middle, Mafe and Cashes Howell on the edge. Like true like. And that's the problem is they have these bigger bodied. I know Miles Murphy came along a little bit last year, but they had these bigger bodied edge rushers that you just like where is the juice use and them getting Mafe and Cassius how to kind of hopefully provide that for them while adding Dexter Lawrence in the middle. And I. They have some, some pieces in the secondary that I think you could feel pretty good about. Like DJ Turner was really good last year. I think that Brian Cook is exactly the skill set that they needed on the back end. Their tackling in the back seven last year was heinous and that is hopefully what he's going to provide. The only thing I thought they would do is add some competition at linebacker and they didn't. But that's really the only thing I'm going to quibble with for the most part. I am pretty on board with how they approach the off season. Is it enough? No idea.

[Dave Hellman]

I did have a funny thought where like for most teams you'd be like, ah, they haven't done anything at linebacker. But the off season's not over. Maybe they can still add somebody. I don't see the Cincinnati Bengals doing another trade after trading for Dexter Lawrence. I see the Bengals being like, this isn't enough. You want us to do something else.

[Robert Mays]

I, and I stand by this. I don't think he's right for everybody. I'd be curious what Bobby Wagner wanted and whether Bobby Wagner was an option because I think that somebody that could make tackles from tackle to tackle in the box, it would be enough for this team compared to what they had last year.

[Dave Hellman]

It's fair to say Bobby Wagner is a far cry from who he used to be. The Bengals are one of those teams where this version of Bobby Wagner still better than what they had out there last year.

[Robert Mays]

Exactly. Bobby Wagner isn't making plays sideline to sideline. Just having somebody that was an adult in that room in the middle of that defense this year, I, I think that there is that you can justify that.

[Dave Hellman]

The other point I wanted to make, obviously the goal is to win the super bowl, but I don't necessarily think that needs to be the Bengals focus right now or it should be their focus. But my point is yes, it should be okay. But my point is just get back to being the team that we talked about you like for three years. Get back to the playoffs.

[Robert Mays]

They haven't been the playoffs in a long time.

[Dave Hellman]

It's it's been long time since we did the whole thing where it was like the, the Bengals are the only team that makes the Chiefs lose any sleep like that. It was a lifetime ago. They were. I mean, they've been a.500 team for two years and then the bottom dropped out last year. So, yeah, the goal is to win the Super Bowl. They don't necessarily need to do that for me to think that what they've done here is a success. Just be that team that we were talking about in 2021 and really more so 2022 when they took that next step. But this hasn't looked like a team that was gonna flirt with like 12 plus wins in. In quite some time. And so getting back to even that level, even if you don't win the ultimate game, like, I'm not gonna say it's okay. Cause you're right, like Joe's not getting any younger. I understand. But like, there's levels to this and the Bengals have been several levels below the way we've talked about them for a while.

[Robert Mays]

You're right. I think, I think it's. For me, it's more so just that when you have that quarterback and when you have what you have around that quarterback, your goal should be to be like a solidified playoff team and contender every single year.

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[Robert Mays]

Even if that is a far cry from what they've been over the last couple seasons.

[Dave Hellman]

It's funny, my brain does this thing where I'm like, well, it's not realistic to expect them to just jump right to the super bowl after what they've been through. The two teams that were in the game this past year didn't seem to care. So maybe I should be less forgiving in my preseason judgments.

[Robert Mays]

All right, I'm. I think both of us are pretty firmly buying what the Bengals did. So that is the point to put on the end of this. All right, that is all we've got for today. We will be back with three more shows this week. I mentioned this on social media today, but just a quick heads up. We are now, because we're in the off season on a four show a week schedule. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday is going to be the plan moving forward. There'll be a couple weeks, there'll be a little bit wonky just because we'll be on vacation later this month into June. But your expectations should be Monday through Thursday, four days a week, all throughout the off season. Very excited to get into the offseason case cadence. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or Follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please, like comment and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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