How long can an NFL team sustain an elite defense?

Summary

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The Athletic Football Show: How Long Can an NFL Team Sustain an Elite Defense?

Date: May 4, 2026
Hosts: Robert Mays (host), Dave Hellman, Michael Bauer
Theme: Offseason Mailbag – Defensive Windows, Draft Class "Dream Teams", Positional Value, and More

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Athletic Football Show is a classic offseason Mailbag Monday, diving into listener questions spanning NFL roster construction, draft class hypotheticals, evolving offensive trends, and the perennial question: how sustainable is elite defensive performance in the NFL? Hosts Robert Mays, Dave Hellman, and Michael Bauer bring their signature analytical rigor and enthusiastic deep-dives, keeping things fun, yet immensely insightful.

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Key Topics & Discussions

1. Building the Best “First-At-Each-Position” Draft Class Team

[03:24–15:00]

• Prompt: If you took the first player selected at each position in a given draft, which year would field the best full team?
• The exercise reveals that most years have glaring positional weaknesses due to draft volatility, especially at quarterback and offensive line.
• Notable Classes Mentioned:
  2011 – Cam Newton, Von Miller, J.J. Watt, Patrick Peterson, Julio Jones. 2021 – Trevor Lawrence, Ja’Marr Chase, Jalen Waddle, Patrick Surtain, Micah Parsons. 2018 – Baker Mayfield, Quenton Nelson, Denzel Ward, Roquan Smith, DJ Moore. 2010 – Sam Bradford (if healthy), Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, Trent Williams, Ndamukong Suh.
• Quote:
  “There’s no draft where every position produced a really good player early in the draft. That just doesn’t happen.” — Michael Bauer [14:05]
• Insight: Even loaded classes (2011, 2021) leave teams with major holes (i.e. mediocre running backs, guards, or weak secondary). Team constructed this way would likely be “around .500,” due to missing stars at certain spots.
• Fun Comparison:
  “It reminds me a lot of international soccer teams... most countries have at least one or two positions where it’s like, yeah, that guy plays in the second division.” — Dave Hellman [14:12]

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2. The Rise of the Second/Third Tight End

[15:06–23:53]

• Prompt: Is the second (or third) tight end now being treated by teams as a “starter,” akin to starting nickel corners?
• Trend:
  • Usage of 12/13 personnel (multiple tight end sets) has climbed league-wide.
  • 13 personnel: From 36 avg snaps per team (2016–20) up to 43+ snaps post-2021, surging especially in 2025 (Rams with over 300 snaps in 13 personnel).
  • Half the league exceeded 50 snaps of 13 personnel in 2025.
• Positional Priorities:
  • Nickel now a true "22nd starter" (on the field ≈65% of snaps).
  • Second tight end is gaining value, possibly the “24th starter.”
  • Swing tackle and interior line depth are becoming roster-building priorities.
• Quote:
  “You want to over-invest in a third tackle? That does not bother me at all.” — Dave Hellman [22:26]
• Insight: The game is moving towards more flexibility; key depth pieces like third-tight ends and swing-tackles are rising in value compared to years past.

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3. Late-Round Draft Success: Is it Traits or Production?

[27:36–34:53]

• Prompt: Are late-round NFL hits more often players lacking classic elite traits, or do they possess unique strengths missed by evaluators?
• Buckets Identified (by Michael Bauer):
  • Players with extreme (but atypical) physical traits (e.g. too big, too small—Elvis Dumervil, Kyle Williams, Brandon Marshall).
  • Small college prospects (e.g. Maxx Crosby, Jared Allen, Jahri Evans).
  • Offensive linemen with low athletic thresholds but high skill/technique (e.g. Bakhtiari, Ryan Diem).
  • Receivers “just good at football” despite poor measurables (e.g. Jarvis Landry, Robert Woods).
• Tyreek Hill, Antonio Brown, Stefon Diggs:
  All fell partly for reasons beyond size/athleticism.
• Shift Noted:
  In the NIL era, “small school” breakout stars are less frequent as talent is consolidated at big programs.
• Quote:
  “Now with GPS testing, there’s a way to…level the playing field and there’s an objective measure about how fast guys are moving.” — Michael Bauer [34:30]

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4. Can You Sustain an Elite Defense for More Than 2–3 Years?

[34:55–40:55]

• Prompt: Given defensive volatility, has any franchise truly sustained top-5 defensive excellence for more than a three-year stretch?
• Historical Examples:
  • Ravens (1999–2011): Top 10 in points allowed 11 of 12 years.
  • Bucs (1996–2005): Top 10 a full decade.
  • Legion of Boom Seahawks: Six consecutive years.
  • Steelers: Nine straight years (mid-2000s).
• What enabled it?
  “They were building around future Hall of Famers” — Dave Hellman [37:15]
• The challenge is not only draft/injury volatility, but also success in pivot moments (e.g., Seahawks’ transition from Browner to Maxwell, adding Michael Bennett, etc.).
• Texans Outlook:
  • Entering year four of elite defense.
  • Foundation: Will Anderson (rising star), Danielle Hunter (aging but great), Derek Stingley (talented corner).
  • Succession planning is key. What happens after Hunter? Can they keep drafting/reloading?
• Quote:
  “If those three guys are your rising tide, it can lift a lot of boats.” — Dave Hellman [38:31]
• Insight:
  It’s rare, but possible—provided you have transcendent players and can smartly transition role players and depth through draft and cap cycles.

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5. Preseason Non-Star Trade Candidates

[42:26–47:46]

• Prompt: With the draft in the rearview, which non-star players could be on the trade block before Week 1?
• Names Discussed:
  • Centers: Garrett Bradbury (potential fit for Ravens), Joe Tippmann (Jets).
  • WRs: Marvin Mims, Kayshon Boutte (as potential depth or system fits post-draft movement).
  • OL: Raiders’ Jordan Meredith, Jackson Powers-Johnson.
  • LB: Jordan Brooks (Dolphins—great but aging, unlikely to be on next competing Dolphins team; would be a fit for LB-needy contender, i.e., Cowboys).
  • Byron Young (Rams)—but noted Rams are in “win now” mode, so unlikely to trade core contributor.
• Quote:
  “If somebody offers you something good for [Jordan Brooks]…is he still going to be at a viable age when the Dolphins are ready? I don’t know.” — Dave Hellman [45:02]
• Insight: O-line depth and LB spots are likely to see movement, but most teams prefer to roll the dice on keeping good veterans in contract years rather than move them for marginal draft capital.

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6. 2027 Draft Hypothetical: Would You Rather Land on the Browns or Jets?

[48:13–55:03]

• Prompt: If you’re the consensus QB1 next year (Arch Manning, Dante Moore, etc.), would you rather be drafted #1 by the Browns or Jets?
• Factors Debated:
  • Roster talent (Jets: better O-line/tackles, Browns: deeper skill group, young prospects)
  • Coaching stability (neither team offers great certainty)
  • Ownership/perception (both have checkered pasts re: quarterback development)
  • Media/market pressure (New York star potential vs. Cleveland’s “savior” narrative)
• Quote:
  “Ownership for both of these teams scares the bejesus out of me.” — Dave Hellman [51:01] “Bringing the Cleveland Browns to glory would be really special… but being a star quarterback in New York sounds really, really fun. If I’m good.” — Dave Hellman [51:34] “The upside of being the savior of the New York Jets sounds really, really cool. If you believe in yourself enough to think you can do it.” — Dave Hellman [54:13]
• Consensus:
  • Michael Bauer leans Browns (“I think my answer is the Browns.” [54:33])
  • Dave Hellman picks Jets, but both acknowledge there may be no right answer–each comes with historical baggage and risk.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On draft class “dream teams”:
  “Even the best [draft class teams] would probably be around .500.” — Michael Bauer [15:00]
• On positional value trends:
  “The way things are trending…if it’s a good third tight end who can give me a little something, I’d rather have that [than a pass pro back] at this point.” — Dave Hellman [21:13]
• On sustained defense:
  “If you have those foundational [Hall of Fame] pieces, it’s easier to do.” — Dave Hellman [37:15]
• On non-star trades:
  “Ravens looking for a potential starting center…absolutely feels like it needs to happen.” — Dave Hellman [42:51]
• On picking between Browns/Jets for a rookie QB:
  “The upside of being the savior of New York Jets sounds really, really cool. If you believe in yourself enough to think you can do it.” — Dave Hellman [54:13]

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Important Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------------| | Show overview, draft class team question | [03:24–15:00] | | TE2/TE3 positional value rise discussion | [15:06–23:53] | | Late-round hits: Traits vs. production | [27:36–34:53] | | Sustaining an elite defense; historical windows, Texans outlook | [34:55–40:55] | | Non-star trade candidates for preseason | [42:26–47:46] | | 2027 QB1: Would you rather go to the Browns or Jets? | [48:13–55:03] |

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Summary

This mailbag episode blends concrete stats, historical knowledge, and fun hypotheticals to explore the real-world constraints of NFL roster building—especially as it applies to defense continuity, positional value shifts (hello, tight end depth), and the fickleness of NFL fortunes. The hosts’ easy rapport and insider observations will enlighten fans eager to look beyond box scores, making this a must-listen for draft nerds and team builders alike.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

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[T-Mobile Spokesperson]

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[Dave Hellman]

to talk about my downtown.

[Michael Bauer]

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[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

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[Michael Bauer]

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Another mailbag Monday here in the off season. Been a couple weeks since I've done one of these. Very excited to get back to it, as always. Sincerely appreciate everyone who sent in questions either via the Discord or email. Speaking of the Discord, as you may know, we launched a merch store back in February. We've heard many opinions from our Discord members on the merch and so we have good news for you that we'll be able to share soon, so be sure that you're in the discord if you want those merch opinions heard and maybe more than just heard. So there's a link in the discord in the show description. In the meantime, go check out the merch store that you can find online with the Athletic Football Show. For now, let's get to this week's Mailbag with me, Michael Bauer and Dave Hellman. Let's get to it.

[T-Mobile Spokesperson]

Foreign

[Michael Bauer]

here on the Athletic Football Show. We are now in the teeth of the off season. This is our first Monday post draft. I haven't been on one of these in a couple weeks now. Dave, you guys handled the one right before the draft and then we had the draft last week. So it's fun to be back in the mailbag world.

[Dave Hellman]

I'm gonna say it's. It's good to have you back.

[Michael Bauer]

Bell, you're gonna be reading the questions as normal. We've got about eight of them today. As always, sincerely appreciate everyone who took the time to send one of these in. Let's just get to

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

starts with Sam Butler. Sam says, with the draft going on, I was thinking about a hypothetical. If you took the first player selected at each position in any given draft year and made a team out of them, which draft class would field the best team? As an example, he said 2024. So Caleb Williams, Marvin Harrison, Ashton Genty, Joe Walt, Jared verse, etc. In addition, how would that team fare in the league? Worse. Near the bottom, middle of the pack, maybe near the top. What do you guys think? Robert, what do you got on this one?

[Michael Bauer]

First of all, I just realized that I put all of my notes in the shared document, which I apologize for, that's not what I meant to do. But just all good there. This was actually there weren't as many candidates as I thought there would be because there are so many years where the first quarterback drafted just isn't a good player. And so it really did some quick elimination, some quick pruning. The ones I felt I landed with 2024, I did not dig into as deeply. That was the example. I think as I look at them, I did went back to like 2010, essentially, like since the new CBA. When I started covering the league, I think it's between 2021 and 2011. I think those are the two contenders here. Did you have any other ones, Dave?

[Dave Hellman]

So 2011 is the obvious answer and I feel like it just comes up all the time. And for good reason, though. I mean, you just Run down the list of 2011. I mean, right off the bat, Cam Newton, A.J. green and Julio Jones, Tyron Smith at offensive tackle, you got von Miller and J.J. watt on your defensive line, Marcel Darius on the interior, Patrick Peterson. I mean, need I go on? I mean, obviously any draft is going to have some weak spots, but 2011 really was as loaded as. As we say it was. And so I do think that's the easy answer. I've got. I got a couple outside the box ones, though, if you want to get weird with it.

[Michael Bauer]

I think 2021 has like a solid argument. I think 2021, like you could actually make a real argument for it because I think you could make a case that if Elijah Vera Tucker can stay healthy, the offensive line for the 2021 group is better than the offensive line for the 2011 group. Because 2011 you're five offensive linemen and you can kind of. You fudge the positions a little bit here.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah.

[Michael Bauer]

You have Tyrone.

[Dave Hellman]

Guy does have flexibility.

[Michael Bauer]

Yeah. And so like you have to. Right. Cause, like it. Sometimes the first center isn't drafted until whenever. So I'm not going to dig into like the third round of these drafts as I go through this. 2020, 2011, you'd have Tyron Smith and Nate Solder as your tackles, which, fine. But then your guards are Danny Watkins, which I was, I was curious, how do we handle stuff like that? Like Danny Watkins, Alex Leatherwood, are they just the versions of the players they were in the NFL as we, as we play out this exercise? That's a tougher one to kind of figure out.

[Dave Hellman]

I mean, I think they have to be for the purposes of something like this. I think. Yes. And that's what makes it fun is you have to go along with what we've seen. You can't project a better reality for those guys as much as we might want to.

[Michael Bauer]

So that's. So at offensive line, Danny Watkins, Stefan Wisniewski would be one of your other guards. And then Rodney Hudson was actually a pretty early drafted center there. So you could have Rodney Hudson. Hudson linebackers on that team, Akeem Ayers and Bruce Carter, which you know, the other outside corner would be Prince of Mukamara. Pretty sure he was the second cornerback drafted, which that's solid. But it's not like it's a team full of all pros. My favorite one, who, you know, the third wide receiver drafted in 2011 was

[Dave Hellman]

not off the top of my head. No.

[Michael Bauer]

So A.J. green and Julio obviously were the first two, which that's A pretty good start. It's a nice third wide, third wide receiver off the board that year, Jonathan Baldwin. So in 11 personnel, Jonathan Baldwin would be a starter for you here we're

[Dave Hellman]

playing 12 personnel, baby.

[Michael Bauer]

Well, the tight ends, I mean there, there weren't any tight ends drafted until like deep into this draft.

[Dave Hellman]

The first tight end you got, Kyle Rudolph.

[Michael Bauer]

Kyle Rudolph. Kyle Rudolph. And Lance Kendrick is actually like, you could probably survive with that now that I look at.

[Dave Hellman]

Absolutely you could.

[Michael Bauer]

Quietly. We talk about the 2011 draft being like this incredible draft, which obviously it was. The second round is tough. There are, there are not a lot of like long term starters in the second round of that draft, obviously of the quarterbacks at the top with Dalton and Kaepernick, got some real throwback names here. Jabal Sheared, who had like a really decent career. But there's a lot of guys who just didn't do much as NFL players. Like Ben Angelana was the second round pick by the Colts that year to Quan Bowers. Marvin Austin, jaquan Jarrett, the DB for the Eagles. McKel Lashore. I mean there, there are some zeros here. Jonas Mouton, I don't even remember who that was. He has zero career weighted AV as a second round pick for the Chargers that year in 2011.

[Dave Hellman]

This is really, as so many of our questions are, it's just a great exercise in like, remember some guys, remember some names that you said a lot 15 years ago that you haven't thought of in quite some time.

[Michael Bauer]

So here's my argument for 2021. Trevor's the quarterback, which I think that's a perfectly fine starting point. Kyle Pitts is your tight end. Your receivers on the 2011 team or 2021 team are Jamar Chase, Jalen Waddle and Devonte Smith. And your offensive line, you have Alex Leatherwood in there. So that's, that's a question.

[Dave Hellman]

We'll play him at guard. We'll mask it up. It's fine.

[Michael Bauer]

And Atlanta Dickerson was a center in college. And so if you want Landon Dickerson to be your center there with Elijah Vera Tucker and Alex Leatherwood, you could theoretically do that. Your edges on that team are Micah and Jalen Phillips. Your corners are pater Tan and J.C. horn. The spine of the defense gets a little bit worse. Jamon Davis was the first linebacker drafted that year. This Richie Grant was the second safety. And then Levi Owns a. Would be your second interior player.

[Dave Hellman]

Richie Grant.

[Michael Bauer]

The strengths of that team are very high.

[Dave Hellman]

I thought Richie, I thought Richie Grant was, was Going to do something, man. I thought he was going to be the next.

[T-Mobile Spokesperson]

He was.

[Dave Hellman]

The truth? No. And we had a question while you were out that was like, why aren't drafts good anymore? And I was like, 2021 was amazing.

[Michael Bauer]

2021 was incredible. Draft. 2024 was also a really good draft. Like Malik Neighbors was the sixth pick in 2024.

[Dave Hellman]

That was the other answer to our question. Okay, I've got a couple. I got a couple outside the box ones, though. For starters. You probably wrote this off because the quarterback is not sexy. But if you're going for quantity. Quantity over quality sounds mean, but like, if you, like, if you're just going for a big grab bag of good players, 2018 is not bad.

[Michael Bauer]

2018 was on my list.

[Dave Hellman]

So Baker is. He's a good quarterback. He's not the sexiest option, but you've got Baker. Then let's just go down the line. Saquon Barkley. You got Denzel Ward at corner, Bradley Chubb at end. Your offensive line in this draft class would be Quinton Nelson, Mike McGlinchey, Colton Miller, Frank Ragnow. You could play Billy Price at guard if you wanted to, or you could have Will Hernandez be your other guard. Your wide receivers, your top two wide receivers would be DJ Moore and Calvin Ridley.

[Michael Bauer]

You'd have Roquan Sutton would be your third one. That's a really nice trio, actually.

[Dave Hellman]

There you go. You got. You got Tremaine Edmonds and Roquan Smith playing linebacker. You got Vita Vea and Duron Payne at defensive tackle. On like, like I said, the. Jair Alexander would be your other corner opposite Denzel Ward. Like, this is the quarterback is not sexy, but you would just have a deep, deep team if you took 2018.

[Michael Bauer]

2018 is one I absolutely was going to throw out there. I, I have one other sneaky one that I was more impressed by than I thought I would be when I actually dug back into it. Go, go look at 2010.

[Dave Hellman]

Let's like, pretend Sam Bradford, right?

[Michael Bauer]

Let's pretend. Let's just say Sam Bradford's healthy in this exercise. Like, Sam Brad went healthy, was a good NFL quarterback. So then you go through the rest of the first round. Your two wide receivers are. Demarius Thomas and DEZ Bryant were the two earliest receiver picks in that draft. The offensive line, Russell Okung, Mike Iupati, Roger Saffold, Marquis Pouncey and Trent Williams. CJ Spiller was the first running back drafted in that draft, which. What a time to be alive. Your defense, my favorite Part of this one. Two of the top five picks in that draft were defensive tackles would be sue and Gerald McCoy. The edges on that team are Brandon Graham and JPP, Joe Hayden and Kareem Jackson at corner linebacker is kind of a very much a remember this time sort of thing with Rolando McLean and Sean Weatherspoon, which Sean Weatherspoon was deeply important to my life.

[Dave Hellman]

And when good was good, Rolando McClain, when he wanted to be, was electric.

[Michael Bauer]

And the safeties on that team are Eric Barry and Devin McCordy.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah, I, 2010 was another one that I, that I circled while I was doing this. And I've got one more and I need you. You can't cut me off. Don't cut me off because there's, there's a very obvious flaw in my plan when I say this and you're going to know immediately, but I don't think we give quite enough credit to the 2007 draft class for just producing some amazing, amazing players.

[Michael Bauer]

It was an incredible draft, but you have a very big problem.

[Dave Hellman]

There is one big problem. But like okay, if my, if my wide receiver trio is Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn Jr. And Dwayne Bowe and I've got Joe Thomas playing tackle and Joe Staley playing the other side and I've got Adrian Peterson at running back, maybe jamarcus Russell being my quarterback's not the

[T-Mobile Spokesperson]

end of the world.

[Dave Hellman]

And my, my defense would have Patrick Willis and Darrell Reavis on it. I mean after a certain point, doesn't all time talent overcome a quarterback deficiency?

[Michael Bauer]

I don't think to that extent, unfortunately that that's why I dismissed 2007 pretty quickly. I, I think my answer here is 2021. I, I think that's the best one. Cause I, I do think that there are the 2011 draft produced, I think more high level players in terms like all like hall of Fame type talents. But I think top to bottom, I like the 2, the 2021 offense better with the offensive line and with the receivers. And like Trevor and Cam, I think, you know, you give the edge to Cam, but Trevor's not jamarcus Russell in something like this. And then the corners and the edge rushers are phenomenal. And so I think it's 2021. The answer, the question that Sam asked, like where they would rank in the league, it still wouldn't be a very good team. Like you still have massive holes at a bunch of different position groups. And I think that's actually interesting to learn when you go back through this there's no draft where every position produced a really good player early in the draft. That just doesn't happen.

[Dave Hellman]

It reminds me a lot of international soccer teams where, you know, the, like, the best international soccer countries, like France and Argentina and England and the Netherlands and Spain, they like it. Like, half of it's a who's who of the biggest stars in soccer. Like, eight of the 11 are these household names, these amazing players. But most countries have at least one or two positions where it's like, yeah, but that guy plays in the second division in his country. Like, that's not what you want. And that's why, for the most part, the top club teams would beat the shit out of the top international teams. Unless you just have, like, a generational team. Like the 2010 Spain teams is an exception to that. But, yeah, that's. That's a fun thing with international soccer, too. It felt very similar to me.

[Michael Bauer]

I think they're like a.500 team. No matter which draft you choose, even the best ones, I think that's probably where I would land. All right, Bella, what's our next one here?

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

Hey, speaking of what Dave just brought up, World cup right around the corner. Get all your coverage right here at the Athletic. Trent Marsh. Man, look at that question right here. If memory serves, around the time Nick Foles took the Eagles to the Super Bowl, Howie Roseman was quoted as saying, they treat the backup quarterback as a starting position. In light of the draft and the pearl clutching and hand wringing I've seen, it has me wondering if some teams don't think of some other positions that way as well. Maybe many of the talking heads taps. Except it, of course, were losing their minds as tight ends came off the board a round or two earlier than expected. While wide receivers waited to hear their names called. Is the second or third tight end moving into that 24th starter role behind the nickel as the 23rd starter, with Sean McVeigh and Ben Johnson leading the charge on 13 personnel and that offensive approach being the new hotness in the league. Dave, you take this one first.

[Dave Hellman]

I love this question, and I actually, my approach to this was to fixate on what we're seeing from tight end and see if I could get a gauge on just how realistic this is, because it's easy for us to talk so much about The Rams running 13 personnel, and teams are drafting so many tight ends on day two of this most recent draft. And so I was. I was curious if it's really skewing that way around the league. And my finding Is probably so. And the two big numbers that I wanted to put here over the last decade, from 20. So from 2016 to 2020, NFL teams were averaging 185 snaps of 12 personnel per year. And from 2021 to 2025, that number has jumped to 216 snaps per year. So you're pretty seeing a pretty sizable jump around the league in the number of snaps that multiple tight ends are on the field. And it's funny going back to when I started covering the league and when I was a beat writer, at least around the teams I covered 13 personnel. Just felt like such an afterthought. Like maybe you use it as jumbo jumbo personnel or goal line personnel, but it's just not something that you expected to see on a regular basis from a lot of teams. And from 2016 to 2020, the NFL average was 36 snaps of 13 personnel per season, which kind of bears out what I'm talking about. And it hasn't changed a ton. But it's up to 43 snaps over the last five years. And this past year, it obviously really blew up. A big part of that is the Rams leading the way with more than 300 snaps of 13 personnel. But I thought this was really interesting, Robert. Over the last nine seasons through 2024, an average of only nine teams in the NFL ran more than 50 snaps of 13 personnel. And so like, if, if you don't even run 50 snaps of a personnel grouping, I don't consider it like a core part of your offense. This past year, half the league used 13 personnel 50 or more times. Like the numbers shot up to a pretty striking degree. And so I'm really excited to see how much of that was jumping on the Rams coattails and how many teams are planning to be using that moving forward. And from the activity we saw in the draft, I would say a lot of teams are gearing up to do that type of stuff. So I agree with the sentiment that tight end is becoming like, like your number two tight end is like becoming an extra starter. Where does it rank in terms of your extra starters? I guess that's, that's the question, right? I, I, I think you're right. I'm looking at your answers in the notes. I think nickel is still probably more important, but after that, I think it's becoming more of a conversation than it used to be.

[Michael Bauer]

For some reason, I can't find the jumbo rates. I'm trying to look back through and next gen right now because beyond the 13 personnel stuff that you're talking about. I mean, we're at a place where there's so much jumbo being played around the league. And I think part of that is if you look at like the sequencing of how this has happened with other teams. The Bills were a huge Jumbo team in 2024, and then they draft Jackson hall as they move away from being a jumbo team to being more of a heavy, you know, 12, 13, 21, 22 personnel team. And I think a lot of teams, you want to be able to do that in part because the jumbo thing allows you to dictate to offenses or allows you to dictate the defenses. So you know you're getting base out of that. But that third six offensive lineman is not a pass catching threat whatsoever. At least you can dump the ball off to a blocking tight end. So I think we'll see more teams transition away from the jumbo stuff. So that number that you said about the 13 personnel, I still don't even think is indicative of where teams want to go with it, because I could see more teams transitioning away from the jumbo stuff to using another tight end.

[Dave Hellman]

I agree. Yeah, it, it seems like just looking at the numbers, it's not a huge sample size, but I think that trend is going to continue to go that way based on what we've seen over the last two or three years, if you look at it.

[Michael Bauer]

So I think the percentages, and obviously this makes sense, these are going to be aligned teams were in base defense about 27% of the time last year. Teams had two or three tight ends on the field about 27% of the time last year. So I would say right now I don't even think the nickel was your 23rd starter. The nickels are a 22nd starter. That's like a 65% rate at this point in the NFL. And nickel is a starting player. Like your third linebacker is now arguably your 23rd starter. And I think the second third tight end probably slots in. I'd say at your second tight end is behind your nickel and then your third linebacker is probably behind that second tight end. And your third tight end to me falls somewhere between at this point. I think an interesting conversation would be a back to handle passing downs or a third tight end. Which would you prioritize in terms of how you're building your offense? I think what's happened over the last year would lead you to believe it's your third tight end.

[Dave Hellman]

It's a cop out, but I feel like it depends on the Players I, but I do the way things are trending, if it's, if it's a good third tight end who can give me a little something in both aspects of things like as a blocker and a receiver, I think I'd rather have that at this point in time.

[Michael Bauer]

Yeah, I mean I would say your nickel is your 23rd. Let's say your second tight end is your 24th starter. Your third linebacker, let's say, is your 25th starter. And then I can think you can make an argument that your third tight end now slots in right after that with like you're, you're passing down back. And by passing down back, I truly mean like the guy you trust to handle pass protection like that, that, that being like a really important thing. But I'd say that and maybe even like and then a DPR type. I wonder where that falls in. I mean that I think you'd make an argument falls behind third linebacker in front of third tight end. But I think they're all kind of bunched together there. And then the one spot I would say that I think teams should do a better job of accounting for because the transition between your starters and your backups is just untenable in a lot of ways. Is swing tackle. Like I think that should be one where like, I just don't know if you can go into a season with certain guys as your swing tackle anymore.

[Dave Hellman]

That's why I always push back on people who don't want to draft a tackle highly because there's quote unquote not a need and not the Rams liked Ty Simpson enough to draft him. But if they had used that pick on a non quarterback, I think I would have felt better about a tackle than a receiver, to be honest with you. Given what they have invested in weapons and pass catchers and what the state of their offensive line looks like, like over investing in a third off tackle does not bother me at all. And I don't know if you could use a big time draft pick on this. But I would say the same thing about a swing interior offensive lineman. Like a guy that can play center and guard who's like your, your sixth dude who maybe isn't even active every week. I think that's incredibly valuable too. Just because the drop off can be that severe.

[Michael Bauer]

You can get that guy in the fourth round though, right? That's the difference. That's like you can get that guy in the same range as you used to be able to draft your blocking tight ends, which you can't anymore. You have to draft them 55th overall.

[Dave Hellman]

You still don't want that guy to be an afterthought is my only point.

[Michael Bauer]

But I think teams using those, like late day two, early day three picks on those interior offensive line depth moves is never something that you regret. Like, that's often something that you're going to feel good about as you look at the state of the roster. But that's luxury, like being able to use those sorts of picks on depths, depth pieces on the interior. The offensive line is a little bit of a luxury. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and hit a few more of these questions.

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

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[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

All right guys, we come out of break with one from Brian Geiger. Brian says after the draft you guys discussed the type of prospects that hit at QB later in drafts, noting that it's usually not the guys that have elite physical traits pointing to Brock Purdy and Kirk Cousins as examples. Does this logic hold true for other positions where maybe the guys that hit late aren't your physical freaks that failed and for other reasons in college but are instead the guys that lack the typical traits but succeeded regardless? Antonio Brown ran a 45740 at 5:10. Puka was taller but also failed to run well. What do you think here Robert?

[Michael Bauer]

I love this question. It was actually really fun to go back and look at some of this. I restricted it to guys picked outside of the top 100 because I think those are like your later round dart throws. There are also some very obvious examples of players drafted in the third round that were these physical freaks that put it all together. Tron Armstead comes to mind. Daniel Hunter comes to mind. So I think that is probably the third round is a cutoff of where you're going to be taking swings and hitting on some of these traitsy guys who have to develop outside of that top 100. I had like three or four different buckets that I think a lot of these guys fall into. My favorite one by far is just somebody who has like a unique physical trait and there's, there's a bunch of these guys or they, they are, they're deficient some way physically. So it's either you're betting on like an outlier with what they're bringing to the table because it's a on the high end or it's on the low end and you can get this guy because he was an outlier in some way. So this bucket of players. Geno Atkins, incredibly small, stubby defensive tackle was a phenomenal player for the Bengals for a long time. Richard Sherman and Brandon Marshall, exact opposite end of the spectrum where you have these like big hulking players at receiver and corner. Brandon Marshall is a 99th percentile weight and high guy at receiver. Kyle Williams from the Bills, 30 and a half inch arms. Marcus Colston. What is Marcus Colston? Right? Like is he a tight end? Is he a receiver? Robert Mathis and Elvis Dumerville, extremely small. And so these guys that fell because they don't hit normal thresholds in terms of size but ended up becoming really really good players. Small school guys is a bucket from this range. Jari Evans, Jared Allen, Max Crosby, Roberto Garza, Antoine Befay, Dramond Bushrod, all guys who came from lower level competition and that pushes them down the draft. A lot of offensive linemen because there are guys that can have zero physical traits and succeed being an Offensive lineman, you know, the Ryan Deems of the world. People like that. There's a ton of those examples. The three guys that are arguably other than Tom Brady, like three of the top 10 players drafted outside of the top of the first three rounds in the last 20 years. Diggs, Tyreek, Antonio Brown.

[Dave Hellman]

Different sort of conversation to a whole. A whole lot of factors go into those guys going where they wound up going.

[Michael Bauer]

Correct. They're small. Right. I think that's the through line people would draw. I think Stefan Diggs, Tyree Kill and Antonio Brown lasted into the fourth, into the fifth round and beyond for reasons that go beyond their size.

[Dave Hellman]

I just, I wonder what you could possibly be referring to.

[Michael Bauer]

Yeah, so that's. And then Puka is an interesting one. I think Puka is another guy who has like a weird superpower. Like the toughness that Puka brings to the table I think makes him a very different and unique player compared to a lot of other guys. Even if that's something that's a little bit harder to tangibly measure. But those are the buckets that I landed on. I really enjoyed going back through all of that.

[Dave Hellman]

By the way, I, I mean I, I overlapped with you in a lot of ways. I. You said offensive lineman David Bakhtiari is just always going to be a guy that comes to mind in that conversation. Like a guy who fell to the fourth round because his size and workout numbers are not overly impressive. Running back is an easy one to do, but Devonte Freeman was 5, 8 and ran like a 4, 6, 40 yard dash, so it's no surprise that he doesn't go super high draft. Grady Jarrett was 6:1 and that's like the main reason he fell to the fifth round of the draft.

[Michael Bauer]

The Gino Atkins general tier.

[Dave Hellman]

I know you said outside the top 100, but a guy who went inside the top 100, who probably would have gone even higher than he did is my guy, Jarvis Landry, who his, his mock draftable graft is just like a period. Like there's just nothing, there's nothing outstanding physically about him. He was just a good football player and his tape was good enough to get him drafted in the 60s, but probably drafted a hell of a lot higher if he was faster or more explosive in any way whatsoever.

[Michael Bauer]

Yeah, a lot of those guys that are just like that guy's just good at football, like especially at receiver. A lot of those guys were like second round picks. Like if you look at the best comparisons for physically for Jarvis Landry, one of them is Robert Woods, Robert woods was not in any sort of testing metric. Woods was not above the 50th percentile in anything but really good player, second round pick, great career.

[Dave Hellman]

One thing I do, I, I saw your note and talking about the small school guys which, like, over the course of time or, or like going back in time, I think that is a, a very good thing to bring up, but I do well.

[Michael Bauer]

A.

[Dave Hellman]

A couple things. A. It feels like the small school player is going away in the ni. Nil era because 90% of guys who can play are getting offers to go play at a bigger program. And like Emmanuel McNeil Warren was the only prospect of much consequence who didn't play for a power forward program. So that's.

[Michael Bauer]

You count them on one hand from this draft, it was like Ted Hurst, Caleb Proctor and Emmanuel McNeil Warner. Like they stick out like a sore thrum because that just doesn't happen very much anymore.

[Dave Hellman]

But what I do think is interesting is more and more recently, like, while I've been covering drafts, NFL teams just seem to have a lot more confidence about guys like that when the opportunity does arise. Like, I'm thinking specifically about Ali Marpet who played at Hobart and was pick 61. And then Kyle Duggar played at Lenore Ryan and was pick 37. And so I don't know, call it confidence, call it analytics, but if NFL teams believe in a guy, they don't give a shit where, what, what the stadium looked like or what the competition looked like. Like, teams have been willing to draft guys like that highly if they're deeply convicted about it. Which I just think is interesting because, you know, I, I wouldn't blame a team for not wanting to take a chance on somebody who's playing future insurance salesman on, on Saturdays. You know, like, that's a scary proposition, but apparently not if you're talented enough.

[Michael Bauer]

I think that now with like GPS testing, there's a way to kind of level the playing field and there's an objective measure about how fast guys are moving. Like, that was the Cooper cup thing, right? It's just like he's playing in Eastern Washington. He ran a 4, 6, whatever, 40. But like, we see how fast he plays and so we're willing to take a swing on somebody like that.

[Dave Hellman]

Cooper cup went to the Senior bowl and spent three days dunking on everyone there. And I was like, okay, I don't care where you played football, let's get

[Michael Bauer]

to the next one.

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

All right, this one comes to us from dimer over on Discord. Dimer says has Anyone held onto a top five defense for more than two to three years between cornerback volatility injuries and contracts, it seems very hard to do. I think we could all see the Texans being very good this year. But what about 2027, 2028? Taking into account historical inconsistency on the defensive side of the ball, is the Texans window more immediate than we might be thinking right now? What do you say on this one? Robert?

[Michael Bauer]

I looked at the historical examples of teams that have done this and there aren't a ton of them. Right. Like a very. I think exactly what Dimer is talking about here and now I'm calling people by their discord names on the milback shows exactly what Dimer is talking about here is example to me a good example is like you look at the 2015 Broncos where they were really good defense for like two years, then they're back to 22nd and we see that happen a lot and I think it's a really good thing to point out. But there are examples of teams that did have very good sustained success and they're some of the best defenses historically that we've seen over the last like two decades. The Ravens were top 10 in points allowed 11 times in 12 years, which is crazy. 11 times in 12 years. The Ravens were top 10 in Points allowed from I think 1999. Whatever. 12 years from 1999 is the one down year, the one year they finished outside of the top 10 in points allowed. They were 11th in EPA per play on defense. And so that's just an incredible stretch that lasts over a decade. The bucks were top 10 at points allowed every year between 1996 and 2005. Every single year. Which is also wild. The Legion of Boom did it six years in a row. The Steelers finished in the top 12 nine years in a row in the mid 2000s in three. They were in the top three in six of those nine years. And so it doesn't. It's hard to do. It's very hard to sustain success in this way on that side of the ball. But we have seen teams do it for an extended period of time. And so what year is this going to be for the Texans? We're on year like three of the defense being that good. 3, 4, 5. Yeah. Will Anderson was drafted 20, 23. So 3, 4, 5. So this would be the fourth year in a row that the defense has been really, really good. I know it's hard to sustain that level of success. I don't think it's crazy. Like I think that you can probably continue to do it. If you're the Texans for at least another year or two, do you think

[Dave Hellman]

it's fair to draw a through line through the teams that you listed and point out that they were building around future hall of Famers for most of those runs, like the Ravens filling in the gaps around Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs and Ed Reed for a decade? That's easier to do. The Steelers had James Harrison and Troy Palomalu. That's easier to do. The obviously the Seahawks had Sherman and Earl and Chancellor and Wagner. And so like if, if you have those foundational pieces, I think it's easier to do. And a note I wanted to make as well, thinking about the Seahawks in particular, when you have those hall of Fame caliber players, it's easier to forget about all the other stuff that has to go. Right. And all of the transitions that have to be smooth to not notice a downturn like the beginning of the Legion of Boom Seahawks. Seattle was number one in scoring defense in 2012, and that was before Michael Bennett or Cliff Averill got there. Right. They transitioned from Brandon Bound Browner to Byron Maxwell at one point during that run to those Super Bowls. You got to be able to successfully replace those sorts of players while continuing to get the hall of Fame caliber play. So my, my answer to the Texans thing is what do you think about, I mean Danielle Hunter's already got a Hall of Fame case, so how much longer is he going to play at that level? What do you think about Will Anderson? Do you think he's his arrow is still up and he's going to keep playing at this level? I'd probably throw. Yeah, no, so do I for sure. And I'd probably throw Derek Stingley in there as well. So if those three guys are your rising tide, it can lift a lot of boats and then we'll obviously see what they prioritize. They just extended Aziz Al Shire earlier this week, but did how long do Jalen Petrie and Kaylin Bullock and Kamari Lassiter play in this defense and when the time comes to replace them, how good of a job do you do? I think that's, that's going to be the answer to the question. But if they continue to draft the way that they have and Will Anderson stays healthy and keeps playing like Will Anderson, I absolutely think the Texans can be this caliber of defense for five, six more years. I think that's realistic. And so if I'm a, if I'm a Texans fan, I'm leaning on the fact that Nick Casario and d' Amico Ryan's have overseen the acquiring of all of this talent and say, all right, even if you're not going to be right 100% of the time, the track record's pretty good that you can keep bringing these sorts of players into the team.

[Michael Bauer]

I also like and I would have to go back and think, but the Michael Bennett shot is a good one. How have these teams had these little tiny pivot moments that have made them slightly different versions of what they were before? The Cade McDonald thing, that's what that feels like to me, where it's like we're going to go out and seek something that we've never really sought out before, to kind of have this tiny transition from one thing to another. And does that allow us to stay kind of one half step ahead? And so my biggest question for them is mostly going to be what happens when Daniel Hunter is gone? Like when, where does that replacement come from? And the fact that they still haven't sought that out. We thought this might be the draft where it's like, all right, let's get our third edge rusher in there. Let's have some sort of succession plan. They did not do that. And so when that comes, I think that will be a very big moment. But yeah, it's, it is possible. And, and I think you do have to build it around those sorts of talents. I do think they have a couple special talents as those kind of gravitational players as part of that plan. All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and hit a couple more of your questions.

[Dave Hellman]

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[Michael Bauer]

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[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

Okay, next question is from Ethel Beavers Ethel says what are some potential non star trades you guys could see prior to week one based on how the draft shook out, for example. Think we've talked about this one coming up a little bit. The Bears drafted a 24 year old highly ranked center in the second round while the Ravens missed out on the position entirely. Could Garrett Bradbury potentially be a target for a team like the Ravens? Dave, you take this one first.

[Dave Hellman]

I just, I don't appreciate the like the pre firing of Garrett Bradbury. I. I just want to say that for the record. But yeah, I mean I think Robert and I talked about it on a show earlier this week. I think the Ravens looking for a potential starting center is something that absolutely feels like it needs to happen. I threw out Joe Tippman earlier this week just as a guy who's on the last year of his rookie deal. Maybe if, if the jets feel comfortable with that, maybe they'd rather keep adding to their war chest for 2027 than have a guy that they're not interested in extending. Tippmann's got position flexibility. Just an idea that I had but I, I think you said it Robert. Like that is for teams that have real deal ambitions this year. That is just one of the biggest holes remaining where you just look at it and you don't think the Ravens are going to go into the season with that as as the situation.

[Michael Bauer]

There aren't that many names that really jumped out when I was looking back through it in terms of players who are going to be free agents in each of the next in either of the next two years. Three guys that I landed on I would actually throw out a fourth one which is the same team but similar thought process. K Shan Booty is somebody we mentioned even like for the Raiders as like a potential outside receiver option if they end up trading for A.J. brown. I think that's one I would throw out there. Marvin Mims right in a in A Jalen Waddle world. Like, if you wanted somebody that has a little bit of pop, I think Marvin Mims, after the Broncos traded for Jalen Waddle, does he become a little bit expendable? And then two guys I throw out on the Raiders offensive line just because multiple different regimes, they've had a lot of moving parts there. Jordan Meredith gave them like some decent snaps two years ago. And is he the odd man out in terms of interior offensive line depth there? That's somebody that can play a little bit of center. If you wanted to call about that, that's a name we did not mention. And then similarly, I'd at least call about Jackson Powers, Johnson. He's exciting. He's had just like a weird stretch there where he's bounced around positions. It's a new coaching staff. So I, that's, that's another one where I would be like, eh, what, what do we, what do we think there? New front office.

[Dave Hellman]

So those, I mean, they've used, they've used several draft picks on the interior offensive line the last couple years. Like, if the new coaching staff feels good about those guys, I guess that makes sense. I guess he, I mean, he, he should qualify as a star. He was a first team all Pro. He was one of my favorite players last year. But I don't think Jordan Brooks is a household name for the average NFL fan. And I don't know, I, I look at the Dolphins. They, they did everything they could to acquire all this draft capital. Jordan Brooks is, if he's not 30 yet, he's approaching 30 and he's in the last year of his deal. I understand he's a wonderful player. He'd probably be a great guy for Jacob Rodriguez to learn from, but if somebody offers you something good for him. Is Jordan Brooks still going to be at a viable age when the Dolphins are ready to do something meaningful? I don't know. And so, you know, I know the, the Cowboys traded for Dee Winters during the draft, but by no means is their linebacker depth chart good. Even still. And like, if, if I was Dallas, I'd still be calling the Dolphins about that and being like, you really won't take a three for a guy who's not gonna be there when you're ready to contend. Come on, that's my pet. Cause of the summer.

[Michael Bauer]

Yeah, Jordan Brooks is a good one. I mean, there, there aren't a ton of others that immediately jump out. I'm sure there are plenty of players that I'm missing, but a lot of the guys who like are going to be free agents heading into next year. Like in a typical situation like Byron Young. Right. Byron Young is slated to make a lot of money on his next contract with the Rams. He's heading into the final year of his deal. Is that somebody that, oh, why haven't they extended him yet? Do they want to extend him? Is that somebody we could pry away? The Rams aren't trading way Byron Young before this season. Right. Like a lot of these teams are just, they're in a spot where they're trying to really push the pedal to the floor and win right now. And so even if you're going to move on from a guy after the season, which I don't think the Rams are necessarily, but they have to pay Kobe Turner, we've talked about this. Typically these guys hitting free agency, would they be worth a call? And I think a lot of them are just on teams that they would rather go into the season with the uncertainty of them being in a lame duck year rather than getting some sort of middling draft capital for them.

[Dave Hellman]

I guess he's been talked about a lot, but Kayvon Thibodeau, you know, even the, the Saint, the Saints went a different route, but maybe somebody else would want him like as of right now, I mean I, they drafted the Lions, drafted Derek Moore in the second round and that sounds awesome right now, but are you going to feel like that's enough as you get closer to football season? If you're Detroit, like, is there, is there a veteran that fits them that they would trade to acquire? I don't know.

[Michael Bauer]

Yeah. Again, not a ton of other names that like immediately jump out, but I think those are like the four or five that I would say. All right, what's our next one, Bar?

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

Okay, our next one comes to us from Limp bizkwik. Just a great, great discord hand.

[Michael Bauer]

Limp Biz Quick has been on the show before. They I don't want to attach a gender to Limpus Quick. It could absolutely be a woman. They, they have asked some very good questions over the last couple months here. They've been involved in multiple shows.

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

I, I, I think we've had Limp Biz Quick questions in our doc, but I think we've pushed them out for various reasons.

[Michael Bauer]

I think this interesting.

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

Okay, great time. It's actually there. So here we go.

[Dave Hellman]

This reminds me of, this reminds me of doing like of listening to Fine Bomb Fine Bombs. Like Limp Biz Quick in in Chicago says this.

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

Well, this is then an appropriate question if it were listening to Fine Bomb because it concerns the QB one in next year's draft class. So maybe Arch Manning, maybe Dante Moore, whoever it might be. If you are the QB one in the 2027 draft, as of right now, this very moment, would you rather the first pick belong to the Browns or the Jets? Robert, what do you think here?

[Michael Bauer]

It's an incredible question. And so we just kind of talked about this yesterday when we were discussing whether we were buying or selling the Browns or Jets off seasons. Talk about this on Friday's show. You guys will be listening to this on Monday. But

[Dave Hellman]

yeah, that pause is good,

[Michael Bauer]

I think. I think my answer is the Browns.

[Dave Hellman]

The. What a ringing vote of confidence there, Robert. You said that as a question.

[Michael Bauer]

It's not as though I think either of them is like a particularly disastrous place to land. I think they've actually both done a decent job of building up the potential infrastructure for the quarterback when they drop them in the Jets. I think you make a solid argument for the Jets. Like, do you feel better about the tackle path for the jets than you do about the Browns? Fano, We've never seen him play in the NFL before. Obviously, Titus Howard is, you know, Ty Howard's gonna be this is age 30 season. We talked that the Browns, I think they've gotten to their offensive line at an acceptable level with the moves they've made, but I don't think that it's a slam dunk by any stretch that that group is going to come together, their receivers in both groups. Like, I think Garrett Wilson is the best receiver among all six that you could throw out. The Browns receiving core is more of a theoretical idea at this point, but the jets. Who's going to be coaching the jets in 2027? I have no idea.

[Dave Hellman]

And so be coaching the Browns in 2027. Are you 100% confident it's Todd Monkin?

[Michael Bauer]

I'm not. And so I think it's hard to answer right now because there's so many questions about who's going to be in charge in both of those places. So if we're ascribing the same sort of uncertainty to the coaching staff, I'm curious, who do you think right now, if you're just stacking up the rosters, you would rather land on? Cause I think it's actually close.

[Dave Hellman]

Let me, let me walk you through my thought process and it is close. And you know what's great about this question and I wonder if this is why Limp Biz Quick chose it chose these two teams to ask the the uncomfortable, blunt truth is that ownership for both of these teams scares the bejesus out of me.

[Michael Bauer]

So that's going to go next is the decision makers and the stakeholders. Who would you be more confident in? It's, it's a hard question to answer too.

[Dave Hellman]

If I was like, if the way that I would answer this question is to go to ownership, like, who's got the better track record? Who do I trust is not an insane person? And I, I, I looked at it and I was like, oh, great. I, I have to make a Sophie's Choice between Jets ownership and Brown's ownership. And so if neither team has a, has a edge in that department, then I'm strictly looking at roster and environment. And but don't get me wrong, bringing the Cleveland Browns to glory would be really special. And that fan base with a team to be proud of would be an amazing thing. But if we're looking at the current rosters, I think the pass catchers are close enough to being a wash. And if I'm 22 years old coming into the league, like, I don't care that much about Miles Garrett and the Browns defense. Cause by the time we're ready to get this thing rolling, Miles Garrett's going to be close to retirement anyway. I look at it and say the jets have two offensive tackles that I feel really good about and they've invested in the offensive core around me. I think I can turn this jets offensive ecosystem into something productive. And being a star quarterback in New York City sounds really, really fun. Like, if I can go six. Yeah, if I'm good. And let's be honest, if I'm.

[Michael Bauer]

I don't know, man.

[Dave Hellman]

You don't want to sit courtside with Tina Fey, Timothy Chalamet and Kendall Jenner. Kylie Jenner.

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

I don't know.

[Michael Bauer]

Quarterbacks have done that over the last 15 years. How many Knicks games have there been worth going to at that level before?

[Dave Hellman]

How many or four years jets quarterbacks have been good? How many?

[Michael Bauer]

That's what I'm saying, though. I. And this is a place that just shoot up and spit out so many different guys. That being said, the level of toxic discourse around the Browns quarterback situation, like it. We don't talk about the Cleveland media market as being as robust as a place like the jets, but in terms of like the venom and the voraciousness that exists with the Cleveland media, like, I, it's, I don't think it's necessarily an easy place to land either. I think they're very similar in that regard. But the jets have New York has chewed up and spit out a lot of guys. Go ask Sam Darnold and Daniel Jones how much they like playing quarterback in New York.

[Dave Hellman]

Okay, but you're approaching this like a smart, seasoned sports writer and podcaster who's been around the block. If I'm QB1 and I'm 22 years old and I just won the Heisman and I've got the world at my feet, I'm gonna go be the king of New York. That's absolutely what I want to do.

[Michael Bauer]

And then ask Those guys at 32 how they felt about being the king of New York at 22. I think they'd make some different decisions.

[Dave Hellman]

Hey, everything.

[Podcast Host / Segment Announcer]

I think Arch has got someone he could ask about that.

[Dave Hellman]

Ah, that's a great point, Bell.

[Michael Bauer]

That's also true. Arch is more insulated from this stuff than a lot of other normal quarterbacks would be.

[Dave Hellman]

Everything we're saying about these teams used to apply to the Chicago Bears. Go ask Caleb Williams if he thinks it kicks ass having the city of Chicago at his feet. I bet he loves it.

[Michael Bauer]

That's true. But Ben Johnson is walking through that door in Chicago and we don't know what's going to be happening. We already.

[Dave Hellman]

We already established that this is a. There's not an obvious answer to this question. Like you're. You're going to be dealing with some problems and some toxicity wherever you go. But the upside of being the savior of the New York jets sounds really, really cool. If you believe in yourself enough to think you can do it.

[Michael Bauer]

I think my answer is the Browns. Okay. I think that's. It's partially rooted in how excited I am about the young players on the Browns. And I. There's a chance that just crashes and burns, but this is just very exciting.

[Dave Hellman]

This is just your Spencer Fano man crush is all this.

[Michael Bauer]

Casey Concepcion, Spencer Fano. And I also love Harold Fannin. Like, I. I just think that there are a lot of intriguing young pieces on the Browns. I think I'm going with the Browns.

[Dave Hellman]

I want to be clear if. If there's no right answer, that also means there's no wrong answer. Like.

[Michael Bauer]

Like, I think jets are always the wrong answer.

[Dave Hellman]

We'll see.

[Michael Bauer]

All right, that is all we've got for today. Just a heads up, we're going to be doing these all throughout the off season. I forgot to solicit questions this week. I won't forget next week. But just as a blanket disclaimer, just send in the questions, please. Join the discord. We're prioritizing a lot of questions from the Discord. So this is an easy chance to just be in the we have an entire channel for mailbag questions so you can constantly be populating that. And then the email is athletic footballshowmail.com you don't have to wait for me. If you've got a mailbag question over the course of the entire off season, shoot it to us because we will be checking that email regularly. For those of you guys who sent questions in, sincerely appreciate it. That is all we've got for today. We will talk to you guys very soon. Thanks a lot. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like comment and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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