Mailbag Monday: How many true #1 pass rushers are there in the NFL?

Summary

The Athletic Football Show: Mailbag Monday – How Many True #1 Pass Rushers Are There in the NFL?

Episode Date: April 13, 2026
Hosts: Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen, Dave Helman
Theme: The gang opens up another Mailbag Monday, tackling NFL draft trends, team-building questions, and the nature of “true #1” pass rushers in today’s league.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Robert Mays, Derrik Klassen, and Dave Helman dig through a batch of thoughtful mailbag questions ranging from the Ravens’ draft reputation to evolving standards for edge rushers, NFL jersey aesthetics, and how the league values top-end tight ends versus wide receivers. The focal segment: How many teams actually have a “true #1” pass rusher, and where’s the dividing line between bonafide difference-makers and quality second fiddles?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Are the Ravens Draft “Gods” or Overrated?

[02:56–12:30]

• Context: A mailbag question challenges Baltimore’s vaunted draft rep since Eric DeCosta’s ascension as GM in 2019.
• Robert Mays:
  • Ravens are still an elite drafting franchise by value but have shifted—they lack those “magic” mid-round hits of old.
  • “Not only are the Ravens not a bad drafting team, they are number one in approximate value per draft pick since 2019, number one.” (03:41)
  • Hits like Marquise Brown (traded for value), Ben Powers (big money via free agency), and others show they extract value even if players depart.
• Dave Helman:
  • Recent rosters “stars and scrubs”—top-end defensive hits (Roquan Smith), but misses at pass rusher and depth/starter quality is lower than past years.
• Michael Bell:
  • The “comp pick” game (letting guys walk, gaining extra mid-rounders) is a double-edged sword—keeps players cycling out, which hurts continuity.
  • “Their own strategy is going to keep their draft history from looking as good as you want it to.” (09:21)
• Conclusion:
  • They’re not perfect, but “if the Ravens aren’t a good drafting team, who is?” (09:23)
  • The myth and reputation outpace results, but the process—stockpiling picks, finding contributors everywhere—is still best-in-class.

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2. Drafting Inexperienced Prospects: Which Positions Can You Risk It?

[12:51–17:41]

• Mailbag Prompt: Is it OK to draft “one-year wonders” (ex: defensive tackle Kaden McDonald) high? Which positions demand experience?
• Dave Helman:
  • D-line, edge, receiver, running back—totally fine to take guys with 1 year starting due to rotation and impact.
  • O-line, linebacker, safety—not so much. “Those are such mental positions. I would like you to get a little bit more reps and have more starting experience.” (13:34)
• Robert Mays:
  • Rotation allows you to ease in D-linemen, not so at OL or DB, where “the downside of a safety learning on the job is extremely real.”
• Michael Bell:
  • Age is huge—inexperienced but young = less red flag than a 24-year-old who couldn’t break into the lineup.
• Notable Quote:
  • “Are you the run and hit guy who is only worried about athleticism ... or do you have experience calling the plays and understanding what you’re looking at?” – Bell (15:51)

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3. Short-Armed Edge Rushers: Changing NFL Norms?

[18:15–22:32]

• Prompt: This year’s draft class has some first-round edge prospects with unusually short arms—is this a trend?
• Michael Bell:
  • Went through Dane Brugler’s draft “Beast”: still only a rare few sub-32" arms, and it’s not really a “thing” yet.
• Robert Mays:
  • Combine arm measurements seem “weird” lately, with a sudden spike in short-armed edge reports—likely a measurement issue, not a seismic shift.
  • “The last two years something has been going on with the arm lengths that we probably need to inspect.” (20:27)
• Dave Helman:
  • The NFL has generally become more accommodating of “outlier” builds at all positions, not just edge.
  • Quote: “There is a little more ... different body types can play a little bit more at every position.” (21:31)

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4. NFL Jerseys: Protect, Banish, or Bring Back

[25:33–34:00]

• The Prompt: Snake draft—each host must protect one uniform forever, banish one, and resurrect one throwback full-time.
• Highlights:
  • Dave Hellman:
    • Protect Raiders’ classic black-and-silver.
    • Banish Patriots’ “flying Elvis,” yearn for old-school red throwback.
    • Bring back Dolphins’ and Broncos’ throwbacks.
  • Robert Mays:
    • Packers and Steelers uniforms are untouchable: “You could just have those forever.” (32:17)
    • Would love to see Seahawks’ silver-helmet era or the Kelly Green Eagles return.
  • Consensus:
    • Titans’ recent uniform revamps draw grief—“You made your choices ... you don’t get to do this.” (Hellman, 29:17)
    • Classic, simple designs remain beloved; new “busy” or “modernized” looks mostly fail.

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5. Judging Drafting Through Sticking Power

[34:13–42:55]

• Prompt: Can you grade drafting by tracking how many of a team's picks stick in the NFL (not just with their original team)?
• Dave Helman:
  • For mid-to-late rounds, sure—it’s a sign of scouting, but top picks need to last for you, not just the league.
  • Example: Cowboys undrafted gem Charvarius Ward who excelled—“but what does it mean for Dallas?” (39:42)
• Robert Mays:
  • It’s a good “baseline” for talent evaluation, but it doesn’t show impact (singles vs. home runs).
  • “The home runs matter very much in measuring overall draft quality.” (39:20)
• Michael Bell:
  • Ravens’ success is as much about sheer pick volume (“give yourself as many bites at the apple as possible”) as about prospect quality.

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6. NFL Teammates with Wildly Different Body Types at Same Position

[43:27–46:32]

• Prompt: What are your favorite “odd couple” teammate duos?
• Robert Mays:
  • “Standing on the sideline ... Derrick Henry next to Dion Lewis ... this is a beautiful sport.” (43:55)
• Dave Helman & Michael Bell:
  • Shoutouts to Moss/Welker, DK Metcalf/Tyler Lockett, and Mark Ingram/Derrick Henry at Alabama.

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7. How Big Is Too Big? Size & Outliers by Position

[48:11–51:09]

• Discussion:
  • Across non-trench positions, “once you get to like 6’6", you’re probably pushing it” (Klassen, 48:29).
  • At OL/DL, weight—not height—is the critical watchout.
  • “You can be too tall to play quarterback.” – Klassen
  • Bell: “It’s the Supreme Court definition of pornography: I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.” (49:54)

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8. Main Event: How Many True #1 Pass Rushers Are There?

[51:11–56:15]

• Prompt: Fans often say “Montez Sweat is a classic #2”—so who’s truly a “#1” in the league?
• Robert Mays’ List (~53:00):
  • Names: Myles Garrett, Will Anderson, Danielle Hunter, Micah Parsons, Trey Hendrickson, Aidan Hutchinson, Jared Verse, T.J. Watt, Maxx Crosby, Nick Bosa.
  • “I had 10 guys who I think are like true number ones ... the market has done a really good job of sorting out where that line is.” (51:41)
• Discussion:
  • Jalen Phillips is start of “Tier 2”—Josh Hines-Allen floats on the borderline (arguably now in Tier 1).
  • It’s similar to quarterback: “At any given time, there’s like three or four guys that could ascend onto that plane for a stretch.” (Michael Bell, 54:10)
  • Trey Hendrickson and Nick Bosa still get the nod despite injury/variance.
  • Rookie projection: Abdul Carter could make the leap, but “too early” after one year.

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9. When Would You Rather Have a Top Tight End over a Receiver?

[56:15–62:13]

• Prompt: How far down the WR list would you go before you’d rather have someone like Brock Bowers or Trey McBride?
• Michael Bell:
  • “Am I being too mean if I say I got like 15 names down the list of receivers before I was starting to think about it?” (56:52)
• Dave Helman:
  • More bullish on elite TEs—“all of your true alphas” (he lists 4-8 true no-brainer WRs before he'd consider a top TE).
  • If projecting forward, “peak George Kittle is better than all but like four receivers in the NFL right now.” (58:12)
• Robert Mays:
  • Sits in the 8–10 WR range before he’d rather have a unicorn tight end.
• Consensus:
  • Elite TEs are extremely valuable but elite WRs remain the league’s most dynamic weapons.
  • Wild card: Colston Loveland (new draft phenom TE) is already being worshipped as a likely future #1.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If the Ravens aren’t a good drafting team, who is?” – Robert Mays (09:23)
• “Their own strategy is going to keep their draft history from looking as good as you want it to.” – Michael Bell (09:21)
• “It’s the supreme court definition of pornography: I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it.” – Michael Bell (49:54)
• “I had 10 guys who I think are like true number ones.” – Robert Mays, summarizing his ‘#1 edge’ list (51:41)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Ravens draft rep and GM philosophy: 02:56–12:51
• Risking 1-year wonders in the draft by position: 12:51–17:41
• Short-armed edge rushers & changing trends: 18:15–22:32
• NFL uniforms: protect, banish, resurrect: 25:33–34:00
• Measuring draft quality/sticking power of picks: 34:13–42:55
• Body type odd couple teammates: 43:27–46:32
• Size outliers (“how big is too big?”): 48:11–51:09
• How many #1 pass rushers exist?: 51:11–56:15
• Tight end vs. WR positional value debate: 56:15–62:13

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a prototypical mailbag installment: smart, funny, granular, and reflective of the evolving NFL landscape. The hosts blend film/draft nerdiness (obsessing over pass rusher tiers and arm lengths) with cultural bits (jersey snake draft!) and philosophical debates about the very nature of team-building, draft value, and positional scarcity.

The main thematic takeaway: The NFL’s best rosters succeed by stacking “bites at the apple” in the draft and, when true difference-makers emerge at premium positions—like edge rusher or WR—they remain the rarest and most valuable assets in football.

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Next week: Mailbag will return—sans Robert Mays—for more questions and more deep-dive discussions!

Transcript

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[Robert Mays]

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's another mailbag Monday here on the Athletic Football Show. Another really good crop of questions. We chatted about the Ravens draft reputation, chatted about when prospects can have very little experience and you could feel okay about it, talked about how many true number one edge rushers there actually are in the NFL and and a whole host of other things based on the excellent set of questions that you guys sent in. So let's get to all of that with me. Derek Classen, Dave Hellman and our guy Michael Bell are reading the questions right now. It's another mailbag Monday here on the Athletic Football Show. Another bunch of very good questions. Excited to dig into these Bells? Let's waste no time. Let's get to it.

[Derek Classen]

You know, we said Thaddeus Wazowitz was going to push us into a full episode and we just decided, you know what, this is just an awesome question. Let's get to it. So Thaddeus, you're back and you've got our first question on this mailbag. So let's get to it. We're going on two years now that I just can't believe what I'm hearing on the Ravens. Mays mentioned putting his thoughts together for this on a future pod, but here's what I don't get. Eric DaCosta started in 2019. So after Lamar, what are his good moves or draft wins? What would you think about his moves in totality? If it said Jags next to his name instead of Ravens, what has he done to build around Lamar, who is very clearly the centerpiece of the franchise and offense? And if your main hits are on defense and they lead to a bad defense, are they actually hits? Very thoughtful question there from Thaddeus. So Robert, why don't you get us started here?

[Robert Mays]

Couple different thoughts here. We're going to do this as a full show. We decided not to do it for a couple different reasons. The Ravens are the reason we wanted to do it as a full show and so we felt this was just a little bit easier and cleaner to answer it in this format. My answer is this. I think that if you look at the Ravens draft history since 2019, there are some drafts that are frustrating. There's some drafts that are disappointing, right? Like the 2020 draft with Patrick Queen and J.K. dobbins. We point to that and it's like, well, neither of those guys are currently contributors for the Ravens. But if you look at the numbers, purely the numbers since 2019, not only are the Ravens not a bad drafting team, they are number one in approximate value per draft pick since 2019, number one and so I know that there haven't been as many like fourth, fifth round hits for the Ravens that have turned into like really good pass rushers as in years past. But if you look at these drafts from 2019 starting in 2019, okay, Marquis Brown didn't end up becoming a long term piece to the Ravens. They traded him for real draft capital on draft day to the Cardinals. That is a hit. Ben Powers did not get a second contract with the Ravens. He got paid a ton of money by another team. That is a good draft Pick in the fourth round in 2020. Patrick Queen was still a guy who got a second contract from another team. J.K. dobbins had huge injury issues. I also think this conversation changes so much if Matabk plays. Yes, we are forgetting Matabe as part of this overall thing. Like finding a player like Matabk in the third round if he would have stayed healthy, I think changes this discussion in a lot of ways. Even the 2021 draft like Bateman and Odafe, oh, neither of them became stars for the Ravens, but they're both contributing pieces. Brandon Stevens was the third round pick in that draft who was a player that played a decent amount of snaps to the Ravens. He was a contributor for the Ravens. He got another contract. And then the other part of this, beyond just the quality of drafts over that time and the fact that consistently finding, either for them or other people, two to three contributors in those drafts, the 2022 draft, finding two elite players in the first round of the draft, that just doesn't really happen in that same draft. They got Travis Jones in the third round and Isaiah likely in the fourth round. Like this is still a team that is drafting very well. And I think to the last point, this idea of if they're your main hits are on defense, they lead to a bad defense. That's why Jesse Minter is the head coach of the Ravens right now. That's why he's the head coach of the Ravens.

[Dave Hellman]

And also if we're doing this like back since 2019, they've mostly had good defenses like through that stretch. Last year was a little bit of an exception. But like they have mostly had good hits. And I think what I would say about the defense thing specifically is like the, the hits are the hits. Those guys are good. The trade for Roquan Smith, I think Nate Wiggins is a good player. Malachi Starks was really good last year. Matabk, Travis Jones, like those guys are all hits. The problem is like it's more of a stars and Scrubs like defensive roster than it is used to being because they've missed on all the pass rushers that they've swung at. Mostly, you know, OA was okay, but then obviously they end up not getting the most out of him with or end up trading him. But almost all the other guys they've tried to draft at that position have not been good. Linebacker 2 has been a problem recently since Patrick Queen has been gone. And so it's more like the, let's say the worst four starters on the Ravens defense are just worse now than they were because I do think that in previous draft classes, like they were better at finding fourth and fifth round defensive lineman more consistently that could. Or they had a linebacker in the hopper that was ready to come up and play two starting years for them. Like, I think that element is gone, but like they still find really good players consistently. Just the bottom end of the roster has been a little bit worse, but

[Robert Mays]

that just makes it like a normal team, right?

[Dave Hellman]

Exactly. Yes.

[Michael Bell]

Okay. I'm glad you said that though, Robert, because I do think, I think that's the crux of this. And I, I fall more with Thaddeus than I do all.

[Dave Hellman]

I think.

[Michael Bell]

I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. And I think the problem is the Ravens are perfectly fine. They've drafted perfectly fine. They've found some good players. They've had some, some hits and some misses. They've had some disappointing drafts. I think the issue arises where people talk about them like draft gods. And like every single year they wait for the Alabama guy to fall to them in the mid-40s. Or like they, they wait for the guy, you know, the, the edge rusher with obvious character concerns falls to them at 45 and you're like, there, there go the Ravens doing this crazy Ravens thing. Or like they did it with Kyle Hamilton. That's obviously a really good example, but they get a lot of credit for that and the results don't back it up as much as the word of mouth reputation suggests. That would be my point. And one thing I would like to say is I think their strategy, it's in direct conflict with each other. Because one thing that makes the Ravens such a enticing, fun drafting team, they do the comp pick game better than anybody in the NFL. They've had 20 since 2019. That's really cool. And you wind up with extra thirds, extra fours. They have, I think they have two extra fifths this year and that's very fun. But how do you get comp picks? You let Your good players leave. And to your point, Robert, that's so there's so many success stories out of Baltimore. Tyler Linderbaum, Patrick Queen, J.K. dobbins, Adafe, OA, Isaiah Likely, Charlie Kohler. These are good players who when you look through the Ravens draft history, you say, oh, but he's not helping the Ravens anymore. And so those two, those two things are in direct conflict with each other, where to play the comp game as well as they want to. They have to let talented players walk out the door. So I think their own strategy is going to keep their draft history from looking as good as you want it to.

[Robert Mays]

I think they've done a poor job relatively compared to previous eras of this team of replacing those guys in the same way. Right. And I think that's been the problem is that like, you know, Daniel Falay wasn't quite as good as Ben Powers was as a fourth round pick that is sliding in as an interior offensive lineman replacement. I think they've been worse at filling in the depth pieces in that way. But I'll say this, if the Ravens aren't a good drafting team, who is? Even since 2019, like every team has a ton of misses and I think we still talk about them as good drafting teams. Like you look at a team like the, like the, the Lions, right? Like Josh Pascal was the 46 pick in the 2022 draft and even like the 2024 draft where Terry and Arnold was a first round pick and then Enes rake straw Giovanni Manu in the fourth round, there's a chance that the 2024 draft is just a no go for the Lions. And a lot of these other teams like the Lions are the team I think a lot of people would point to. The Ravens didn't have the benefit of picking seventh and second in any drafts over the last 10 years. They're picking in the 20s every single year or in the teens at worst. And so when you consider where they're drafting the expected returns on the players, they're still in the conversation as one of the best drafting teams in the NFL. Even if some of the hallmarks of who the Ravens have been over the last 10 years, 15 years, when it comes to those fourth and fifth round guys have not been quite as strong in the last five as they had been previously.

[Michael Bell]

I think that's right. And I just, I, I, I, I don't think there's really a problem here as long as we are acknowledging that they're just as flawed as everybody else. And I think I'm guessing and just trying to keep tabs on what fans say and, and popular opinion. I think the frustration comes where sometimes you talk about the Ravens like they do no wrong and they clearly do wrong. And one other point that I would just want to bring up. I was thinking I'd be curious for Yalls list of like the best four or five Ravens right now. Like the best Baltimore Ravens players. Like I just, my list is Lamar, Kyle Hamilton, Derrick Henry and Roquan Smith.

[Dave Hellman]

Yes.

[Michael Bell]

Right.

[Dave Hellman]

Matabki, if he's healthy, like is certainly up there.

[Michael Bell]

But I'll give you Mattabik.

[Dave Hellman]

Complicated. Yeah.

[Michael Bell]

If Matabk is healthy, that's two out of five that Eric DaCosta drafted himself. And I mean like they acquired Roquan Smith. You get credit for that, that's fine. But you pay a premium to do that though, right?

[Robert Mays]

Like by giving him the, the pick and the contract, you're paying a sticker price for him. Right? Like that's it. It's a shrewd move in the sense that you got a good player, but you got no value out of that player when it comes to the market. It's not the same as drafting a guy. You can't just say we use that second round pick on Roquan Smith. You did not.

[Michael Bell]

The vast, the vast majority of the Ravens best players. And I think that's a good point, Derek. I, I really like Nate Wiggins. Malachi Starks looks good after one year, so maybe we'll change our tunes. But right now I think the majority of the Ravens best players are guys that Eric Dasta did not draft himself and bring into the organization himself. And I think that's worth pointing out.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, they've definitely taken a step back. There's no denying that. And that's why you have to do something like the Trey Hendrickson draft signing in a ways that you wouldn't before or like the Max Crosby trade. But I still think when you stack it up to the rest of the league, they are still a very good, above average drafting team. And it's important also to keep that in the back of your mind as we have this discussion. All right, Bella, what's the next one?

[Derek Classen]

Alex Mandrick has our next question. Alex asks. I really enjoyed, I guess he says to start this, I really enjoyed the discussion you had recently about the experience of quarterbacks in college and the desire to use a first round draft pick on a quarterback who wasn't the clear cut starter by year two at their school. I recently read the athletics 2026 draft fits we love. And Nick Baumgartner wrote about Kaden McDonald, defensive tackle from Ohio State. In his writing he mentioned that McDonald, who is consistently mocked as a first round, was a one season starter and hasn't put it all together yet. Sounds to me a little bit like Ty Simpson. So which positions would you be most okay with a first round pick having limited experience in college and which positions do you think experience and playing time is vital for Derek? You take this one first.

[Dave Hellman]

I think this is really good and I think to me it mostly comes down to like if we're talking about pure starting experience, I think the rotation positions, I don't care if you were only a one year starter, defensive line, defensive end, wide receiver, running back, because you're going to get reps. Like you might not be the starter but you're getting serious reps. You're getting serious even practice reps if you're one of those guys who's going to be some sort of contributor on game day. And like McDonald was not a starter in 2024. He played a decent amount for Ohio State in 2024. He was just starting behind and I think this is another important part of the McDonald thing versus Simpson. He was starting behind Ty Lee Williams, also a first round pick who was like a really, really good. Who has bit who was pretty solid as a rookie, NFL rookie. And so I think there's. And then I think on the flip side, positions where I would be a little bit more dubious and probably do want to see you play more than one year of starting offensive line because again that's not really a rotation position. Like you're either the starter or you're not. And then even though linebacker and safety can be positions where you could get on the field, you could rotate in a little bit. You know, maybe guys are just taking reps off whatever it's going to be. Those are. Because they're such mental positions. I would like you to get a little bit more reps and have more starting experience.

[Robert Mays]

It's funny that I took this very similarly with the rotation players, but almost for a different reason. I just think that if you have a guy who's inexperienced as a defensive lineman, you can work him in and get him experience in a way where you're. It's the right blend of development and instant contribution. Right. Like you're not going to have an offensive tackle that's a one year starter in college and then plays 12 snaps a game for you in the NFL. If you draft him in the first round that that's just not going to happen. And so I think defensive line is a, is a good one for that reason. The only thing I'd push back on when it comes to receivers is that we have so much statistical history about breakout age among receivers and how much it matters. Where if you are a gay, if it takes you till your age 22 season to have a productive year in college, that is often a red flag for what you're going to be in the NFL. And so I think that's the one thing I would throw out where like yes, it is a rotational position, but we do want to see for the most part, based on history, early contributions from guys at those positions. Specifically.

[Michael Bell]

Yeah, my, my answer comes down pretty exclusively on age. And going back to the Ty Simpson question, the reason Ty only having one year as a starter and not winning that quarterback battle earlier. The reason it doesn't bother me as much is because we're in my mind we're talking about him as a second round pick. That would give me a lot of hesitation as a first round pick. And I think it's the same thing across the board. If you've started one year at tackle, offensive tackle in college, but you're 21 years old, that bothers me a hell of a lot less than if you're 24 and you've been at your program for three to five years and you started one season for some reason. And I think it's a good point. I agree with Derek. Like the, the more cerebral the position, the more I'm curious about this, like linebacker comes to mind because it's like are you the run and hit guy who is only worried about athleticism and just like C ball, get ball. Do, do you have any experience like getting the play call and getting things right and understanding what you're looking at and if that's my idea for what you're going to be, are you going to be completely flummoxed by it? Like do I have to teach you scheme and how to play the position and stuff like that. So the more mental responsibility of the position, the more I'm probably looking at stuff like that.

[Robert Mays]

The downside matters to me too.

[Dave Hellman]

Right.

[Robert Mays]

Like if you have a safety that has never played and he's going to be have to be a day one starter for you because you drafted him in the first round, the downside of that guy learning on the job is extremely real. The downside of a defensive lineman learning on the job in a similar way, it just doesn't really exist. Like he doesn't produce for you but like, all right, he didn't produce for you on 12 plays. If you have a safety that you're trying to ease in, that's like a 21 year old freak but is inexperienced, you could lose games. Like that's a real thing that can happen because he had to learn on the job.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah, he will give up touchdowns for you and like that's going to ruin your game in a way that like you know, the defensive end, it might hurt you but it's not going to kill you. The only thing I would say about the receivers, the breakout age thing is a good point, which I think is why the one year of starting it's different when we're talking about like Xavier Leguette, right, who was like 23 years old, it takes him until year five to really break out versus like Jameson Williams who's trapped behind a bunch of other first round picks at Ohio State, transfers to Alabama, is a one year starter at 21 years old. Really, really good. And so that context matters here in a big way. Totally, totally.

[Robert Mays]

All right, Bauer, what's the next one?

[Derek Classen]

John Dykes asked the next question. John says, is it a pure coincidence that we have potentially two first round edge prospects that have historically short arms, including one potentially going top five? If it's not a coincidence, is the position changing at the college level to allow shorter arm players to succeed and will this trend eventually translate to the NFL? Dave, you're up first.

[Michael Bell]

I love the question, John, and I love that you're thinking ahead and trying to spin this forward and you, you might be onto something. I'm more inclined to say I'd like to see more evidence that this is a trend before I take it as one. And just for full the entirety of the context I went through. Now we have the beast, which makes our lives so much easier. Dane has 46 edges with some sort of grade ranging from one to priority free agent, all the way on down to like after the seventh round, 44 of them have longer arms than Bane and Cash's Howell. And then of the guys that have a day one or day two grade, there's 16. So if you take out Bane and Howell, 14 or excuse me, 13 of those 14 guys have a full inch and a half of arm length on Ruben, Bane and Cash's Howell. The one exception is R. Mason Thomas who's at 311 3/4. So still longer, but not quite as much longer. And so I look at it and just think the overwhelming majority of These guys meet the thresholds you want them to. And it's tricky with college prospects. Like measurements for measurements for seniors who elect to measure, like rising seniors. So like this year's juniors who are staying in school who elect to measure can measure over the summer and the scouting services will have some of that information. But for the vast majority of these guys, it doesn't become public knowledge for us until like the Senior bowl and the combine. So it's possible that there's going to be some more guys like this coming down the line, but I need to see it before I'm worrying about it becoming a trend.

[Robert Mays]

I also think it's worth mentioning that we've acknowledged that the combine measurements have been weird over the last two years. Like they've been shorter than they have been in previous seasons and that started in 2025. If you look at the 2024 combine, there were no players with shorter than 32 inch arms. There was one player who was below 32 and a half inches. This year there are 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 players below 32 and a half inches. I, I think it's how they're measuring it is also playing into this. I don't, I think it's more coincidental and the fact that the last two years something has been going on with the arm lengths that we probably need to inspect.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah, I. It kind of is a little bit of everything. There is the. Whatever the was going on with the measurements. Everybody is a little bit shorter than they used to be, which I think is part of it. I do think though, I like, I don't have like exact numbers for this, but I was kind of toying around on mock draftable, which is a really good resource for stuff like this.

[Robert Mays]

That's right. It's got that right.

[Dave Hellman]

And if you look at like 1999 to like 2010, there really are not that many edge rushers with arms under like 32 and a half. Whereas if you go from like 2011 through 2025, whatever it's going to be, there are more guys who are 32 and a half and under. But I just, I don't think that that is so much like something about the game is changing that allows those guys to play in a different way. I just think kind of across the sport, this extends beyond edge rushers. There is a little more like different body types can play a little bit more at every position in a way that maybe just was not as true about the sport. 25 years ago.

[Robert Mays]

I think that's a really, really good point. If you look at it. There were only. I'm, I'm going back to, I'm at 2010 right now. Okay. In 2010, there was only one defensive end at the entire combine who was shorter than 6. 3. The ways that we're just talking about edge rushers now, there's so many more players who are these tweeners that are going to be guys that measure a little bit less arm lengthwise because they're just shorter players.

[Michael Bell]

That's such a good point. Cause even, you know, my, the first time I covered a draft cycle was 2013, I think. And like, even back then, you're writing off guys where it's like, ah, he's only six, two and a half. Like what, you know, what, what's, what's he going to do for you down on the edge? And I mean, certainly over the last decade or so, I just, I don't think that's nearly as much of a conversation as it used to be.

[Robert Mays]

All right, let's go to our first quick break and then come back and chat through a few more of your guys questions.

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[Michael Bell]

Wait, we're going on tour?

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[Derek Classen]

Let's get in the tour bus and hit the road.

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[Robert Mays]

Are you a groupie on this tour?

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[Dave Hellman]

all

[Robert Mays]

right butter, what's the next one?

[Derek Classen]

Okay, some metal dude has a fun proposition for us. He says you are hired to be the head of all things NFL jerseys for every team and as such you are given three assignments. Give one team's kit complete protection. Love that we're taking the soccer style of this. You give one team's kit complete protection. In other words they have to keep it for all time. Number two, immediately banish one team's kit for it to never return. Number three, bring back one team's kit from the past for them to use instead. And he specifies like not like the Eagles Kelly green as like a throwback. We wear it one week but something that they wear as their regular kit jersey. All that good stuff. Let's snake draft this. Dave, you take this one first.

[Michael Bell]

Again, love this question so much. I campaigned to put this in the show because I love it so much. You want me to do all three of mine first or. Okay. I think the very best uniform in the NFL and it's a shame that it hasn't been associated with more good teams over the last quarter century. You're not beating the Raiders. You're not beaten. The classic black and silver with that logo just ah, the autumn wind is a pirate. It's like One.

[Robert Mays]

And.

[Michael Bell]

And you're going to see a theme here. I am a. I'm a uniform traditionalist. Like, I enjoy the Penn States and Alabamas of the world. I don't need a whole lot of rigmarole. So I absolutely adore the Raiders uniform. I would never touch it. Number two,

[Derek Classen]

this is a.

[Michael Bell]

This is a pet cause of mine that I've always wanted to say into a microphone, and now I get my chance. I can't think of a worse uniform to be associated with the greatest run in the history of the sport than the Patriots uniform. It is. It is insulting to me that a dynasty that spanned two decades has that ridiculous flying Elvis logo with those huge, ugly shoulder stripes and. And the red face masks. I just. I hate everything about the Patriots uniform. And I'm. It upsets me that, like, such great teams were accomplishing so much great stuff in such a ridiculous look. I would make them go back to their throwbacks immediately because their throwbacks are fantastic.

[Dave Hellman]

Their throwbacks logo and everything.

[Michael Bell]

Like, their throwbacks are incredible. I. It pains me that we've seen so much dominance in such a bad uniform. And then finally, take your pick. Either. Either the Dolphins or the Broncos. Both their throwbacks are so much better than what they wear these days.

[Robert Mays]

There are 10 candidates for this.

[Michael Bell]

Yeah, for sure. But those are. Those are the two that come to mind. I. All the Dolphins need to do is go back to the throwback. They wear like, once or twice a year. And they'll have one of the best uniforms in the sport. And I would say not that Denver's current logo with the horse head, like, it's not bad, but I just. I like the throwback that much better.

[Robert Mays]

The ones that are the easiest, like, nudge back to being correct are the Dolphins and the Falcons. Falcons. Those are the ones where it just nudge it right back and it's just not hard to get where you need to go.

[Dave Hellman]

That was also on my short list. I'll. I'll go in reverse order here.

[Michael Bell]

The.

[Dave Hellman]

For my throwbacks, I had basically the same answers as Dave. Like the old, to me specific, I think kit top to bottom, like, helmet all the way down to socks. The Broncos one is probably my favorite, but I love the old Dolphins logo. It just was. It had like a perfect amount of whimsy to it that it just. It was.

[Michael Bell]

He's wearing a football helmet. Dolphins don't wear football helmets.

[Dave Hellman]

Dolphins don't wear football helmets. How ridiculous is that? It's so. They're. They're my favorite. And then I think their color scheme is just like that. Blue and orange is. Is fantastic. So I would say that one kid we got that's got to go like everything about the Titans for like the majority of the time that they have existed, I do not love especially the new ones they're rolling out now.

[Michael Bell]

Are you don't like the new ones?

[Dave Hellman]

No, I think they're offensive.

[Michael Bell]

Okay.

[Robert Mays]

I. My answer was the current Titans uniforms, not because I don't like them. They're better than the old Titans uniforms. They should not be allowed to use that color scheme. You made your choices.

[Michael Bell]

You're opening can of worms here. I mean, I don't think you're wrong, but.

[Dave Hellman]

Yes. No, he's. He's correct. Like, you have to live with the choices you made. You don't get to do this. And so for that reason, even if they're not like technically the worst uniform right now in the league, we're killing those for that reason. And then the ones that I would protect forever. Dave, the Raiders were on my short list. They might even be number two for me if I really had to like, rank it out. Number one for me. The Ravens black and purple is just like, it's sensational.

[Robert Mays]

This is.

[Dave Hellman]

And I don't think they're ever gonna.

[Robert Mays]

It's the idea that the Ravens black and purple jersey ones that need to be protected is the Raven. I was born after 2000. Thing you could possibly say.

[Dave Hellman]

I was born the year I think that they became a franchise.

[Michael Bell]

So the Ravens uniforms are good, but like, they're so. They're so 90s. Like the flying animal head and like purple and black.

[Dave Hellman]

Like, they're.

[Michael Bell]

They're not bad, but they are just a product of their time. Like, it's very easy to be like, oh, you came into being in 1998. This makes sense.

[Dave Hellman]

And they're.

[Robert Mays]

I like them, but the idea that, like, we must protect the Ravens purple jerseys is some funny.

[Dave Hellman]

Listen, 30 years from now, I'll. I'll be right.

[Robert Mays]

I. I don't. I'll say this. I'll start with the ones that we need to get rid of. My answer with the new Titans jerseys. Just because I just don't think they should be allowed to have them from last year. The jerseys from last year that was like, we can't keep doing this was the Falcons and they're switching out their uniforms this year. It was time. Like, those ATL ones underneath the collar, like, those were bad. And so I think they knew that.

[Dave Hellman]

Has any division over the last 10 years been worse than the NFC South. Like the Alarm clock Bucks were bad. The Saints have had some gnarly ones. Like the NFC South.

[Robert Mays]

The Saints alternates that they wear are often like, there's so many bad Saints alternates. But overall, I'm fine with the Saints.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah, that's true.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah.

[Michael Bell]

Okay, the Saints helmets, the Saints base helmets or whatever. But like the, the Saints, like, color rushes that they wear where, like, the all white is like, the all white is good.

[Robert Mays]

I'm okay with that. I just don't like the, the Saints black helmets. I don't like the white. The whites are okay. I do not like the black helmets. And so there are enough, like, alternate Saints uniforms that I'm just not a fan of. I don't like the gold numbers on the black. Like the super gold numbers. Like the P color gold numbers. Those are not my favorite.

[Michael Bell]

Oh, yeah.

[Robert Mays]

But so that's, those are just the alternates, though. Like that, it's whatever the, the one that. I don't find any. What, Derek, mentioning the alarm clock jerseys. I don't find any current NFL uniforms as offensive as some of the other ones that we've had over the last 10 years. So I think it's harder to find a good answer. I think the Patriots is actually a really good one. The Patriots needing, like, a total revamp. I'm 100% on board with that. The ones I would protect, the packers and Steelers can never change their uniforms.

[Dave Hellman]

Agree.

[Robert Mays]

Like, I, that's one where we could just have those forever. That's the same as the.

[Michael Bell]

What do you think of the packers white helmets, though? Like, I wouldn't want them to wear those all the time, but I, I like those, like, when they mix it up a couple times, those are fine.

[Dave Hellman]

Those whiteouts are incredible. Because I'm with you, Dave. Like, Penn State's like, that's a clean look. Anytime a team rolls out, like the stormtrooper jersey, I'm all about it.

[Robert Mays]

I would give a team as an alternate every once in a while. But like those teams that have had those classic uniforms, they have to keep those uniforms forever.

[Michael Bell]

Primary colors, simple logos. I, I, Some people think it's boring, but I just think you can't go wrong.

[Robert Mays]

That's how I feel. I mean, think the Bears blue jerseys. I would never want those to be, to change from, like, being like, just the standard ones. Like, I, I would want those forever. For me, the ones that, if I could change one or bring one back. I love the Seahawks throwbacks. Like, I just, I love the primary blue Seahawks throwbacks with the silver helmets. Like, I think those uniforms are incredible. And so that's the only team we hadn't mentioned yet that I would throw in there. And I think the Kelly Green Eagles too. Like those. I would prefer the Kelly Green Eagles all the time.

[Derek Classen]

We gotta throw the Seahawks back to the AFC west if they bring the.

[Robert Mays]

I support that.

[Michael Bell]

The Seahawks throwbacks are awesome. And maybe it's just because they've had three or four really kick ass teams, but this modern Seahawks uniform era with like, like the navy and the action green and the checkerboards on the numbers, like, it's really grown on me. Like, you win two Super Bowls in a uniform template. I'm listening. Like, I don't want them to get rid of that completely. Where I'm like, yes, that is. That is now an undeniable part of the identity of the Seahawks. I would be sad if they got rid of it completely.

[Robert Mays]

It's a really good argument. I think it's the best argument for keeping it. I think that that has overshadowed the actual quality of the uniform. I don't think the uniform is good, but I think because they've been so successful in it, now we're tied to it forever. All right, what's the next one?

[Derek Classen]

Okay, this One is from 3-74-CON Discord. 374 says, can we measure how good an organization is at drafting by knowing how many players they drafted are on NFL rosters, be it their own or somewhere else. If so, who grades out highly here? Or does this show that they are better at development? Or I guess worse if those players stick in the league somewhere else? As an example, in 2024, there were four or five centers who played on teams and they had all been drafted by the Cowboys. So Derek, what do we think about this one?

[Dave Hellman]

This one is. Is really difficult to untangle. I would say that just purely basing it off of like, do these guys stick in the NFL? I don't think that works for like every round of the draft. I think that's a good way to do it. If we're judging like rounds four through seven, maybe even three through seven, just guys who are like, okay, they can stick around. And so if we're judging it off of that, that's fine. But I think you can look at some classes. Like, I'm going to take the 2021 Jaguars, for example. They draft Travis HN, Tyson Campbell, Walker, Little Andre Cisco. If you look at like weighted approximate value on pro football reference, they're all decent. Like a chance at 33. Tyson Campbell, 25. Walker Little, 18. Andre Cisco, 20. These are all guys who have started a lot of football games. They've played for a while, gotten second contracts for it for other teams and stuff like that. But the only one that is still on the roster is Walker Little, who was extended by the previous regime and like, never really started before he even got extended. This was like a, we don't even like the guy who's ahead of him, so we're going to keep this guy and let him play. And so that's one of those ones where it's like, sure, these are all NFL players. How much did they ever really do for you, really? And so that's why I think just basing it off that can get a little bit complicated. And then even going back to the Ravens, who we just talked about, they've got a lot of those guys where

[Robert Mays]

it's like they're number one by a lot.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah, they're number one by. If we're judging it off of that, like, can they just identify guys who can hang. It's, it's the Ravens. But that's, that's not always the question when you're, when you're trying to do that.

[Michael Bell]

I think at least I weight it differently across the front and back half of the draft, too. I mean, let, let's just be honest. Like, I'd say you could even talk me into the value of a fourth round pick, but really the fifth, sixth and seventh rounds, that those picks are just not valuable enough for an NFL team to have too much patience or Runway with you. It's like, okay, jump onto the moving train. And if you do, that's great, but we don't have a lot of time to wait around. Like, I think in this day and age, most teams are going to try to give all of their draft picks, like a rookie training camp to make the team. And I think that that's not a hard and fast rule. But like, as a rookie, you're going to try to keep as many of your draft picks as possible, but then after that, it's how well are you picking it up? How quickly are you adjusting? How do the coaches see you as a fit? What does the depth chart look like in front of you? Are you going to get an opportunity? Did somebody else break onto the scene like, did. Did the second round pick from two years ago finally have the light come on? And now the depth chart is a little bit more crowded than it was when you got drafted, and it's tough to. It's tough to hold like a fifth through seventh round pick to that standard. Whereas rounds one through four, these are the guys that you have really identified and put weight on, and they're the ones that you need to hit. I am judging you based on whether those guys stick on your team and do something for you. If you gotta cut your sixth round pick after his second training camp because time waits for no man and he becomes a great player for somebody else, that's a cool story. I don't know how much credit I think you get for that, though.

[Robert Mays]

You know, I go back and forth on this. I think there is an argument that it is a good measure of just the ability to identify NFL level talents throughout the draft. And I think that the Ravens are a good example of this. Right? Like the Ravens have players that they drafted in like the fifth round of some of these drafts, the six rounds of some of these drafts where they've been able to stick in the league for a really long time. And I think there's something to that, right? Like you look at the Ravens draft history over the last, like 10 years and some of the guys that, that come to mind when, like in this exact discussion. Darren Waller was a Ravens draft pick. You know, sorry, I had other ones. Jermaine Illuminor was a Ravens draft pick. Bradley Boseman was a Ravens draft pick. There are a lot of guys, Ben Powers, Geno Stone, Ben Bredesen was a Ravens draft pick in the fourth round. Like, they've done a very good job of just being able to identify all throughout the draft this guy can play in the NFL. And I do think there's a ton of value in that. But what this doesn't account for is, I don't think the idea of is this a sign of development. I think it's the opposite of that. I think if your draft picks are doing well elsewhere, it's a sign that you picked the right players. Maybe you weren't able to develop them in the right way within your system and for your team. So I think it is a good measure of drafting quality. The only problem here is it's not a measure of impact because this doesn't account for scale.

[Dave Hellman]

Right?

[Robert Mays]

Like in something like this, the idea that Ben Bredesen is still in the NFL matters as much as what Kyle Hamilton is. And so the impact overall and like the scale of how much and how good some of these draft picks are, we have to take that into account. Like, it's not just how many singles you hit. The home runs matter very much. In measuring overall draft quality.

[Michael Bell]

This makes me think of a very specific story that always comes to mind when I think about this stuff. I guess it was. It was probably 2018. The Cowboys identified an undrafted free agent by the name of Charvarius Ward. And they found him and brought him in. And he was having a nice rookie training camp and like at a preseason game, they pulled him off the field and told him they were trading him to. I think he started out in Kansas City, right? Yeah, he was. They traded him to Kansas City for an offensive lineman. The offensive lineman got hurt. I don't even remember his name. He wound up playing no meaningful snaps for the Cowboys. And Charvarius Ward goes on to become an all pro and a good player for several different NFL teams and makes a ton of money. Unmitigated success story. And it's like, that's really cool that you were able to identify that guy and like, you were right to prioritize calling him after the draft. But what does it mean for the Dallas Cowboys? And I mean, I think you're. I think you're right. Like, that is. It's an impressive, good, reliable ability. But I don't know. I don't know how much credit I'm giving the Cowboys for Char various Ward kicking ass after getting dealt out of town.

[Robert Mays]

Cause development matters and utilization matters and having a plan for a guy matters. But in terms of being able to purely identify draftable talent, I do think that is indicative of something and I do think that often over time it will stack up in a ways that you want it to. The team right behind the Ravens in this exercise and is the Niners. It's a lot of really good teams at the top of this in terms of who has the most players on

[Dave Hellman]

NFL rosters, it sets a baseline. If most of your worst draft picks are guys who can at least stick around, that means you're more likely than not a lot of your good ones are going to end up being guys who are high impact players. Because like, think about again, like, part of the reason the Browns have stunk at drafting for the last 10 years or so is they do miss on a lot of their premium picks. But like, they've also hit on a lot of those. The reason they have been bad for a lot of this time is if you look at their like rounds four through seven, it's a lot of guys who are just like cut immediately. And like that's, that's kind of how you end up being like one of those franchises who really, really get stuck

[Robert Mays]

I also think the first Ravens conversation, the second Ravens conversation. What's the difference between the Ravens recently and the Browns? The Ravens make a lot of picks. At the end of the day, it is still incredibly valuable to make a shitload of draft picks.

[Michael Bell]

Thank you for reminding me of that, Robert. Cause it was a point I wanted to make during the Ravens thing, which is like we say all the time, like bad process can lead to good results and vice versa. I think part of the reason people are enamored with the Ravens so much is I really do think the process is undeniably good. Like give yourself as many bites at the apple as humanly possible. I always want to be making more draft picks than anybody else. And over Eric DaCosta's time as GM, they've averaged nine picks per year. So like they've averaged two more picks than their allotment per year during his time as gm. And not every pick has been good. I'm sure they, they would redo some things, but give me as many bites at the apple as possible and I'll take my chances that I'm eventually right.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah. It's easier to find Isaiah likely in the fourth round when you have six fourth round picks. Cause that's how many they had the year they drafted Isaiah likely.

[Michael Bell]

Silly.

[Robert Mays]

All right, Bauer, what's the next one?

[Derek Classen]

Okay, Stoli on discord as slowly also in parentheses has a naggy truther wants us that, you know, that's, that's part of the personality here.

[Robert Mays]

So that's. I have so many questions.

[Derek Classen]

It's a, there are dozens of us situation.

[Michael Bell]

I think he's a, he's a Giants fan. Just for the record.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yes.

[Robert Mays]

Okay.

[Dave Hellman]

All right.

[Robert Mays]

Great, great. That's, that's, that's going to play.

[Derek Classen]

It's going to play into this question too. So Stoli says one of the coolest things about football is the wildly different body types and skill sets that play the same sport or on the field at the same time and even occasionally play the same position. What are some of the all time great teammates that played the same position with drastically body types or play styles? And here comes that Giants fandom. He included as an example Brandon Jacobs and Ahmad Bradshaw. Super fun question, Robert. What do you got here?

[Robert Mays]

My all time example is I was standing on the sideline at training camp in Nashville. I don't know what year it would have been probably five or six years ago now and Derrick Henry was standing next to Deion Lewis and I was like, this is a beautiful sport.

[Dave Hellman]

It's amazing.

[Robert Mays]

I, I love it so much. Everything about the fact that these two guys can exist on the same field playing the same position, doing the thing is one of the reasons that this is the greatest game in the whole

[Dave Hellman]

world is that maybe the position where you can kind of get the most

[Michael Bell]

like probably is right receiver.

[Robert Mays]

Right. Like in theory you could have a 5, 8 receiver and a 6, 6 receiver on the same team. Like that's also something you could do.

[Dave Hellman]

So a cheap one that immediately came to my mind was like the 07 patriots having Wes Welker who was like 5 9, 180 pounds and also Randy Moss who was Randy Moss. Like that's different. Different players playing the same position.

[Michael Bell]

Technically the for the same reasons. The late era Russ Seahawks with 5, 10, 180 pound Tyler Lockett and six 3, 230 pound DK Metcalf.

[Dave Hellman]

That's a great one.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, there's. There's so many good examples. Like and it's just it. Ted did a good job of this 10 win this week on the Athletic wrote a story about this draft class, the 2026 draft class and how stacking receivers next to each other overall is ridiculous. Like it's. Why are we comparing? Trying to think of the best example. Who's like a small jitterbug receiver in this draft that I should be talking about.

[Dave Hellman]

I mean Casey Concepcion is kind of like that.

[Robert Mays]

No, Casey Concepcion is like a real outside receiver. Who's like the Branch, right?

[Dave Hellman]

Oh, Deion Branch is a perfect one.

[Michael Bell]

Or Burks.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, yeah, like Dion Burks compared to like Denzel Boston. It's like those guys are. We don't have to compare them as players. Like we can compare the Denzel Boston's, the, the apples to apples and the oranges to oranges.

[Michael Bell]

The all time best one. Robert, you reminded me of this with the Derek Henry shout. And like they weren't. They were college teammates. They weren't teammates in the NFL, I don't think. Or actually were they? No, they weren't. But the photo of I like Mark Ingram went back to do the coin toss at Bama for one of the national title games like after he was a pro and he's at midfield with Derrick Henry. It's like a popular, it's like a meme now. Like Mark Ingram out of uniform standing next to Derrick Henry and Mark Ingram is 5, 9, 2, 20. Like he's not a small dude but he looks really small standing next to fully uniformed Derek Henry. It's one of my favorite photos.

[Robert Mays]

All right, let's Take one more quick break and then come back and hit a couple more of these.

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[Derek Classen]

All right, we come out of the break with one that is right and ripe for the Athletic Football Show Headline plays How big is too big? There's a lot of sizes on the show and for good reason. But at what point across different positions are you starting to get or completely out on a guy? I mean Derek, you have to take this one first.

[Dave Hellman]

I will. I I ha. I feel like I'm the the chief sizest guy on this show so I'll start It does like it would take us a while to go through every single position but I feel like a good benchmark for every non trench position. Once you get to like six six you're probably pushing It. And like, there. There can be a couple of exceptions, but, like, you're pushing it at that range. It's the. It's the you can be too tall to play quarterback bit that you've done. Like, you kind of can be. And I think once you get past that, you're pushing it a little bit. Same is kind of true of wide receiver. Like, at a certain point, if you're too tall, probably a little hard to, like, get down and sink and get in and out of your routes, like, certain stuff like that. Same obviously is true of, like, corner safety, all that stuff. So that's probably the range there. Trench, I think it's more about weight because there are plenty of guys who are 6, 6, 6, 7, 6, 8, all that sort of stuff, and they can hang in the NFL. I feel like once you get to like, 3 60, you're really starting to get into dangerous waters. And there are a couple of outliers. Obviously, like, Trent Brown was over this. He ended up being a good player. Orlando Brown, I think, was over this and ended up being a good player. But you're treading in some pretty dangerous territory once you push past 360.

[Robert Mays]

Those are the two things that I had, like, at 6, 6 over 6 5, you're a tight end. You're not a receiver anymore. And the big, big offensive lineman, the massive offensive tackles, I think that's one that. That wouldn't concern me.

[Michael Bell]

My only addition to the conversation, I just came down with the Supreme Court definition of pornography. Like, I. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. I just feel like you. You can tell watching a guy if he's, like, too big to be doing what he's doing. And like, even I was curious, just going back and looking Even at, like, 6, 5, I would like to see a freakish degree of athleticism, to want to bet on, like, a six, five guys. And like, and there's. There's plenty of those, right? Like, Calvin. Calvin Johnson comes to mind, but he was a generational prospect. Like, it.

[Dave Hellman]

If.

[Michael Bell]

If, like, I want to see something special, to believe that you're gonna buck that trend. Typically, like, after a certain size threshold and yeah, I would say 6, 5, 6, 6 is where I start to get curious.

[Dave Hellman]

I think that's actually a good way to frame it. Cause it's like, is your frame the attraction here, or is it, like, amazing that you can move the way that you do at that frame? You know what I mean? Like, if we're just being like, oh, he's 6, 7, 3, 50. That's crazy. But it's not like a. Oh, he's so good athletically at that size like that, I think is the. You know it when you see it kind of part of the element.

[Robert Mays]

All right, Bower, what's next one?

[Derek Classen]

Okay, this is from Jonathan. Don't call me Lars Ulrich. Maybe. Maybe he would like that. Maybe he could be a big Metallica fan. So Jonathan Do. Carmen do. Call me Lars Ulrich says I have heard you guys talk multiple times about edge players that are labeled as more of an ideal number two, like Montes Sweat, which got me thinking, how many actual number one pass rushers are there? I would assume it is anywhere near 32. Is there a clear line of demarcation somewhere? And can you put together a list list of your true number one pass rushers? Robert, why don't you take this one,

[Robert Mays]

Try to do both of those things. My true number one guys that I had going through the list, I'm sure I might be missing someone because I was trying to stack it up with a couple different things. It was contracts and it was production last year. And so there might be somebody who hasn't gotten paid or somebody who was hurt last year that I might miss as part of this list. But I had like, I think 10 guys. So Miles Garrett, Will Anderson, and the Neil Hunter. The Texans have two. Micah Parsons. I still have Trey Hendrickson as like a number one edge rusher when he's healthy. I think it's probably closer to the line now, but I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt. Aiden Hutchinson, I'm throwing in there. Jared Verse, I think is still in there. T.J. watt, if you look at the attention that he gets, I'm still putting TJ Watt in that conversation. Max Crosby, Nick Bosa. So how many is that? 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. So I had 10 guys who I think are like true number ones. And I actually do think the market has done a really good job of sorting out where that line of demarcation is. If you look at the contracts that have been handed out and what guys are getting paid, I think right now, the line, if I were to draw it, Jalen Phillips is the start of the second tier of guys at that $30 million a year. And then you look at the players paid right under him. Josh Heinz, Allen, Brian Burns, Montez Sweat, Nick Bonito, like that feels right. Like it seems like the market has, like that is shaken out in the way that it should shake out.

[Dave Hellman]

So that's interesting because I think a couple of those guys are like, I would probably put them slightly above the line. Like, I think Josh Hines Allen probably clears it to me.

[Robert Mays]

And I just write it there. And after last year, I think you could make a strong argument that he belongs in tier one, but I think that's right. Right where you're held either.

[Dave Hellman]

Yes, exactly. And I do think, like, this also gets down to a little bit of like, are we talking purely as pass rushers or like number one, like, all around defensive end was like, maybe changes the math slightly on some of these guys. But like, I do think that like around Jalen Phillips is the line because like Phillips I would put under it. But like Josh Hines Allen, who's like right in that tier, I would put like just above it and probably give him the doubt.

[Robert Mays]

I think that's fair. And I think after last year, maybe Josh. And because I think he got paid before last season. He got that contract thing in 2024. And so after last season, I think you could make an argument that Josh shines. Allen below belongs above the line with those other guys.

[Michael Bell]

I gotta tell y', all, I'm really encouraged to hear this because I think of myself as the more forgiving of the three of us. And I was expecting both of y' all to be like, there are four and only four.

[Dave Hellman]

Like, I did have a tier of four that's kind of like the one plus tier. You know what I mean? And then I got some other guys in the. There.

[Michael Bell]

I. It's. It's similar to quarterback in the sense. And Robert alluded to it. But there are so many variables that make it hard to make a hard and fast list. Like, Trey Hendrickson is a perfect example. But also, I'm not willing to write off Nick Bosa as having elite edge rusher gas in the tank, even though he played like two and a half games last last year. So I would throw Bosa and Hendrickson in there. And then at any given time, yeah, there's like three or four guys that could ascend onto that plane for a season or a stretch of a season. I like Josh Hines Allen is worth a mention. Jonathan Granard was banged up, but, like, he's certainly on the low end of that. Nick Bonito deserves to be mentioned. And he's. He's top of mind. Cause he just made a shitload of money. But like, Trayvon Walker is continuing to ascend as an edge rusher as well. I know he's not. He's not like a pure Sack getting edge, but he is still a really, really good, still ascending player in my opinion. So like, I. I'm not going to argue with you. If you say 10, if you want to be a little more forgiving and say like 12 to 14, I'm okay with that too.

[Robert Mays]

That's about where I find I sit with it. And I think Josh Hines Allen is a good one. Derek, I think he probably deserves the nod, but other than that, I think all those guys follow just below that line. To me.

[Dave Hellman]

Yeah, I will say the. Lastly, the one that I think is most interesting because he was only a rookie, obviously, where Abdul Carter, he's probably like the trickiest one to rank because you only have one year to go off of and like the run defense is more tackles for lost and like setting the edge. But I do think that he's the one that, like, if you're trying to project who's going to jump into that tier next year, it's probably him.

[Robert Mays]

It's just too early, right? It's just like you don't want it.

[Dave Hellman]

Don't do it off one year unless it's like Miles Garrett, like Miles Garrett. As a rookie, you were like, well, that guy's a little bit different.

[Robert Mays]

Jared versus rookie year was enough for me to be like, ah, he's probably in there. Like, I think that's the other guy. Like, as a rookie, I was like, yep, done.

[Dave Hellman]

I'm.

[Robert Mays]

We're. I'm. I'm all set here. All right, Bell, let's do one more.

[Derek Classen]

Yeah, here's the last question. This is from Dan. Now, Dan is comparing Kenyon Sadiq as the top 10 tight end in this year's draft class, you guys, to the wide receivers that we've been talking about as we lead up to the draft. And so his email lays that out and then takes it to the current state of wide receivers and tight ends in the league and says, how far down the top wide receiver list would you have to go before you say, I'd rather have someone like Brock Bowers or Trey McBride than this guy, than this wide receiver? It wants us to answer that through a lens of when does the top tight end in the draft class start to measure up with a group of wide receivers? So what do you got on this one, Dave?

[Michael Bell]

Am I being too mean if I say I got like 15 names down the list of receivers? Before I was starting to think about

[Dave Hellman]

it, I knew this was going to go this way because I. I've got about a third of that.

[Michael Bell]

I'm maybe I'm too fantasy football pilled. I don't know. Or maybe again, the most recent season weighs so heavily. Like I. Trey McBride was incredible last year, but Brock Bowers obviously was. He was banged up. He didn't have anything resembling his rookie year. But I just, I don't know, man. I look at it, I look at what receivers are doing for their offenses, the scoring potential that they have, and I mean, I don't know, should I list them off? Like, I got Chase Puka, JSN Jefferson, CD AJ Brown, Devonte Smith, Amon Ra, Drake London, Jalen Waddle, Chris Olave, Pickens, T. Higgins, Ted Roa, McMillan, and I'll even like, I love Garrett Wilson. Like, I threw him in there too. And I'm like, that's why I think

[Dave Hellman]

we get silly times.

[Robert Mays]

I mean, give Garrett Wilson a quarterb with the pulse. Let's revisit this conversation.

[Dave Hellman]

He's a good player. But I'll even say this, like, you guys know how much I love Tedaro and McMillan. There are like, there are like four or five tight ends I would rather have before Teterow and McMillan and he's awesome.

[Robert Mays]

Forward for the next five years probably

[Dave Hellman]

like, well, I guess if we're going forward for the next five years, that probably changes the math. But like, I mean, Trey McBride certainly. Brock Bowers, certainly. Like, if you could tell me, even for the next like three years, I'm getting like, bet the best of George Kittle, which I'm probably not given his injury history. But like, like, if we're talking about like, who is changing their offense and who really gives you stuff like peak George Kittle is all better than all but like four receivers in the NFL right now.

[Michael Bell]

Kittle's an interesting answer.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, because it's different than McBride and,

[Michael Bell]

and Bowers as a multifaceted weapon. Like if, I mean, if, if you, if we're talking about a tight end that gives your run game significant juice while also being a very real receiving threat, you could change my opinion. But if it's just like, if, if it's like a, you know, a souped up slot, like big slot tight end who's primarily a receiver, I feel fine with my list of 15.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, I probably get closer to like 8 or 10.

[Dave Hellman]

I think that's fair. I think that's probably like a more reasonable stance than what I have. Like 8 or 10, I think is good because yeah, like all of your like true alphas, basically.

[Robert Mays]

JSN Puka, Jamar, Chase, Aman, RA ST Brown, CD Lamb, Justin Jefferson. That's six. AJ Brown, seven. Drake London, eight. Those are the ones where I'm like, absolutely. I think that those guys are above. Then I think the group that's slightly one step down from that, that we can go back and forth on is like Olave, Nico Collins.

[Michael Bell]

Shit, I forgot about Nico. That's just a, that's an error on my part. But I would throw him on my list for sure if he's healthy.

[Robert Mays]

That's probably where I start going back and forth on it. And I think I can still get a few more receivers before I get to the tight ends. So my, My answer's probably 10.

[Dave Hellman]

See, I, I, I think if I, like really got down to 10, like actually having to make the decisions, I would probably get to like eight. I think I had four where I was like, no doubt about it. I don't even think about it. Which is Puka. Jsn. Yeah, this is what I was expecting

[Michael Bell]

with the edge rusher question where Derek's like, actually, actually, there are only six good players in the NFL.

[Dave Hellman]

Listen, this is kind of how I think about receivers. And so that's the four where I'm like, no doubt about it. I don't even think about it. A.J. brown, like, if last year didn't happen, I think would also probably be in that tier for me. But just last year was so weird. And then you get to the tier of like, I think I would take them, I think I would take the receiver, but I'm not 100% sure, which is like the Drake. London's Amun Ra CD Lamb is in there. Nico Collins is in there for me. It's a lot of, like, your exes, I think even I think the one. And this actually goes back a little bit to, like, what I was saying about Amon Ross St. Brown during all the Makai Lemon discussions. Like, T. Higgins is probably in this category for me because, like, I just think X receiver, like, that is very, very difficult to find. So he's probably one that's like a weird one for me to pick between. But then that's kind of where it stops for me. Like, I. Devonta Smith is an awesome player. Chris Olave is an awesome player. I would much rather have the best tight end in the league than a guy like that.

[Michael Bell]

Let me ask you this. Cause I think it might be more interesting. How many tight ends are you putting in the mix for this conversation? Like McBride and Bowers? Kind of goes without saying. Colston Loveland's first season makes you lean in that Direction, but maybe it's a little too early to say something.

[Robert Mays]

We didn't include Colson and Loveland. I would have. I get one above everyone except JSN and Puka Colson.

[Michael Bell]

Loveland's already. They're already doing his bust. We understand that.

[Robert Mays]

Rather have Colson leveling right now than Jamar Chase. Like I, I don't think that's even like that at this point. I mean like what he's giving you all. All across the board. It's like I don't even think it's a conversation.

[Dave Hellman]

I mean, I unironically would put Colston Loveland like disturbingly high on this list probably.

[Michael Bell]

That's. I. You're not wrong. It's just too early. Like yeah, sure.

[Dave Hellman]

And I get that.

[Michael Bell]

I feel that way after one year, but it's one year.

[Robert Mays]

I mean, let's go back and watch what the 2025 season was. I think I can make a pretty serious argument that Coastal Loveland is better than Justin Jefferson.

[Dave Hellman]

That that is technically, that is how the second half of that year definitely plays.

[Michael Bell]

There's a. There's a kernel of truth in every good joke. That's the, that's the funny part about this. Yeah, but like I don't know, man. Outside of.

[Dave Hellman]

I think it's those three and Kidd, like Kittle, if. I guess if you're doing again the five years thing, that complicates it a little bit. But if you're saying like the next two years, I do think like Kittle I would want in there.

[Derek Classen]

What if I gave you Tucker Kraft fully healthy week one.

[Michael Bell]

Oh, Craft is a good answer. If he's healthy.

[Dave Hellman]

I think that's where it becomes the most complicated because I think Kraft is fantastic. I think he's not. And that actually, that one actually is tough because that one is like I would want to see what it looks like in an offense that throws more. And like I think that he is obviously very capable of that and like being closer to like what Trey McBride is capable of on a volume sense. It's just like we're never going to get that in Green Bay. And so there is some element of me that's like kind of want to see it, even though I do think he's exceptionally talented.

[Robert Mays]

Derek is the unreliable narrator when it comes to this question.

[Dave Hellman]

Listen, you're. You're telling me to pick between the like 190 pound receivers and the 250 pound like freak tight ends. Come on.

[Robert Mays]

Just asking him to choose between all of his children here as he rejects the small people. All right, that is all we've got for this. Go around with the Mailbag. Sincerely appreciate everyone who sent in questions. I will not be on next week's Mailbag, so these guys will be doing the heavy lifting, which I sincerely appreciate. Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. It's why we do this every single week in the off season. Always a fun time. We will be back tomorrow as we keep running through our 2026 NFL Draft coverage. See you guys later. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or Follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like comment and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

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[Michael Bell]

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[Dave Hellman]

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[Dave Hellman]

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