← The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
Monday Mailbag: The peak of fandom, breaking losing cycles, Bill and Ted for the NFL, and more
00:59:16
Loading summary
Transcript166 lines
- [00:00]
Advertiser
Guys, it's no use putting it off. The best time for an underwear refresh is now. Tommy John Underwear is designed for a perfect fit that stays put all day. There's zero chafe, thanks to four times more stretch than competing brands and their innovative horizontal Quick Draw Fly is a game changer. With over 30 million pairs sold, there are thousands of men out there more comfortable than you. Don't settle for less. Go to tommyjohn.com today for 25% off your first order with code comfort. That's tommyjohn.comfort Tommy John Comfor perfected every
- [00:33]
idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive, so they set out to change that. By designing glasses in house and selling directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate, and they start at just $95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near
- [01:03]
Dave
you Hi, this is Ben Mandelker and
- [01:05]
Derek
Ronnie Karam, hosts of the Watch what
- [01:06]
Dave
Crappens podcast here to tell you that the HBO original comedy series the Comeback is back for its final season on
- [01:14]
Robert
the official Comeback Podcast. Join host Evan Ross Katz along with Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King to unpack each episode, hear about the show's
- [01:22]
Dave
origins, real life parallels, and why it still resonates with fans after more than two decades.
- [01:27]
Robert
Stream the Comeback on HBO Max and watch the Comeback podcast HBO Max. Or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's Monday during the off season which means it's time for another mailbag Monday. As always, sincerely appreciate everyone who sent spent the time to send in questions. Got some good ones from Discord. Always get a bunch of great ones from our email. We're going to going to be doing these every single week and so I'm going to solicit questions but also if you just want to send them in Athletic Football show we will be checking that email periodically. We'll be cycling through it and so do not hesitate if you have one mind and you want us to answer it because we will be doing these every single Monday all throughout the offseason only with a couple exceptions. Another great set of questions. Great set of conversations with me, Dave, Derek and our producer Michael Bell reading the questions. So let's get to it right now.
- [02:29]
Derek
Foreign
- [02:33]
Robert
here on the Athletic Football show and After a week away, Bell's back to read the questions. I was very uncomfortable last week. It's like throwing with your left hand, you know, I just, there was something about it that just made me feel a little bit icky. So I'm glad you're back to help shepherd us through this.
- [02:49]
Michael Bell
I'm glad I'm back, too. I missed last week because I always try to take off the first weekend of the NCAA tournament. And so I did that and I was instantly sad with Wisconsin, like the fourth game, like fourth game of the day on Thursday and being the only one of the top five seeds that lost in the first round. So maybe this is like the mailbag gods telling me that I should be here for all mailbag episodes going forward.
- [03:13]
Robert
It's been a good tournament, though. I mean, there. It's been an entertaining tournament for the most part.
- [03:17]
Michael Bell
Super entertaining. It's been great. I. I do not, I do not bemoan the lack of upsets. We've had a lot of very fun second Sweet 16 games. It's been a great year, a great tourney. Other than my guys going down in the first.
- [03:28]
Dave
I was going to say, not to be a jerk, Beller, but like the whole Big Ten is in the Elite Eight and Wisconsin, you know, we don't need to talk about it. I'm sorry.
- [03:36]
Michael Bell
Am I upset that of the three teams that have already qualified, as we're sitting here recording this for the Elite Eight, that Wisconsin went 4 and 1 against them in the regular season with three of those wins coming outside of Madison? No, I'm not upset about that at all. In fact, I think we should just get to the show. So let's do it. Dylan Murphy has our first question, and he says, as a Seattle Seahawks fan, when this year wrapped up, I tentatively felt that in terms of losing essential players, we were actually in pretty good shape for a team that just won it all. That said, I've been confused by the way we've handled the running back room since then. Even if I didn't like it, it was understood that Kenneth Walker would probably be out of the building with the JSN and Witherspoon contracts looming. But with the Charbonnet injury in mind, I would have bet everything on Seattle ending up with one of the algier dowdle White level backs after free agency. Now that we've seen how little some of those guys were paid, I'm more confused by the lack of aggression here. Are we really going to head into next season? Starting Emmanuel Wilson and George Holani in the middle of our very real super bowl window? No, Kubiak's only going to make things worse. Am I crazy for thinking Seattle has kind of botched this with the lack of urgency at running back here? Is a third, fourth round rookie really going to be enough to make this make sense? Robert, what do you got for us on this one?
- [04:41]
Robert
We talked about this on one of the shows that we did just about wrapping up free agency and just the biggest questions we had left. And one of my questions was who's going to play running back for the Seahawks at the beginning of the season? But correct or not, I'm not like overly concerned about it. I mean, Zach Charbonnet will be back at some point. It might not be for week one, but he will be back. And I think there are just some teams that look at running back and even Seattle, who has drafted a lot of running backs relatively high and they're just not going to get overly concerned about it. Hearing John Schneider talk about it on the radio last week, he was kind of like, eh, you can find him. You, you, you, you can find him and I think we'll be able to find him. And the other part of this is if you look at it, Seattle has $33 million in cap space currently according to over the cat for 2026. But right now they're already top seven in cash spending. And if they give, give Devin Witherspoon a contract this year, let's just say Hypothetically it's another 25 million in cash for 2026 and it might be more than that, that probably puts them like second in overall cash spending. So even though they're not totally up against the cap, the amount of cash they've spent over the last calendar year, when you throw in the Charles Cross contract, the JSN contract, the Spoon deal that's about to happen, the Darnold money from last year, the there's a chance that there are just some areas where they're like, you know what the 15 million. It may not seem like a lot, but for us right now I'd rather try to get that player for next to free.
- [06:02]
Derek
Can they find them? The only good running back they've had in a long time was Kenneth Walker who they had to draft 41st overall. So I like, I understand that that's like their kind of philosophy, but I'm not sure they can find them. I will say I think at some part of me feels a little bit similar to I can't remember what year this was, but it was either 2022 or 2023 when the Vikings went into the year with Alexander Madison as RB1. And I was like, that is an unserious approach to the position. This is a little bit different because like you said, Charbonnet is coming back. So it's like they will have a good player back at some point. But going into the season, when you are in like a potential repeat window, if you wanted to be going into it with Emmanuel Wilson, who, like, I think is a really good player, probably not like a week one starter type, and then George Holani, who has always been like an RB3, RB4 type, like, it's, it's a little bit unserious. But when you win the super bowl, you, you, you are afforded a little bit of time to be unserious if you want to be.
- [06:54]
Robert
So here's the thing, though. Let. Let's just say Emmanuel Wilson's there for week one through six as the starter, and then Zach Charbonnet gets back, right? If he comes back, feels tolerable, right? That's. It's very real chance that happens.
- [07:05]
Dave
The other point I would bring up is I think the playoffs are coloring the way that we look at a lot of this. Like, Kenneth Walker was amazing in the postseason, but Seattle's run game was not this overpowering force. For most of last season, The Seahawks were 23rd in rushing success rate. They were 25th in EPA per carry. They were middle of the pack and explosive run rate. I can hear Seahawks fans saying, yeah, that's because Kenneth Walker didn't get the ball enough. But they still built a hell of a team with a running game that was solid but nothing special for most of last season. And so if Charbonnet is back at some point, Holani is there, Emmanuel Wilson is there. Do I think you can get by? And by the way, I think this is worth saying too. We talked about it with Dane Robert. This is not an amazing running back class. Like, if you're not getting Jeremiah Love or maybe Jadarian Price, you're probably not getting a day one badass like workhorse running back. Does that mean you can't draft a guy to come in and be your third back and potentially bring that explosive element? I don't think that's true. Plenty of people have talked about Mike Washington out of Arkansas. I think that's like the hot name to pair with the Seahawks. It makes a ton of sense. But you could also go after a guy like Nick Singleton out of Penn State who he's dealing with a broken foot right now, but I think he's supposed to be fine for the NFL draft right up there in Seattle. A guy that I love a lot, Jonah Coleman. Like, there are guys you can draft outside of even like the top two rounds who, no, they're not going to be stars, but they can be pieces of the backfield and I think it'll be fine. And one more thing I would throw in if it's not fine. There are a lot of intriguing players that I think you might be able to get at the trade deadline. Right? Like Seattle did that for Rashid Shahid last November. What if this year, if you're halfway through the year and it just sucks, maybe then you go after Devon Hn and maybe the Dolphins are more willing to do that deal in the middle of the season. Maybe you go after Tony Pollard is a guy like if, you know, if, if the Titans just feel like, A, he's his deal's about to expire. B, maybe the Titans just aren't a very good team. Maybe this fifth free agent spending spree didn't work the way they wanted it to and they're willing to do that. Like, there are guys you can get in the middle of next year. So I don't feel great about it right now. I really doubt it's going to be the reason why the Seahawks don't repeat
- [09:34]
Derek
the small wrinkle with the draft thing, though. They don't have picks.
- [09:37]
Robert
They have four picks. They have one pick beyond the top 100. That's the only. That's the problem here.
- [09:42]
Dave
Barring, barring draft day maneuvering, it's going to need to be pick 64 or pick 96. And yeah, like, it, it sucks, but you could still do it. Like, you could draft a running back with one of those picks if you feel really strongly about it. Or like I said, I mean, Holani and Emmanuel Wilson could probably get you through until Charbonnet is healthy. And if not, then we get to do some fun trade deadline shows about the Seahawks needing a running back.
- [10:10]
Robert
I've enjoyed that over as we've talked more and more and as people have talked more and more about Jeremiah Love potentially going to the Titans, like, they just treat Tony Pollard like he's a corpse.
- [10:18]
Derek
It's just like he was good about he's fine.
- [10:22]
Robert
Just pretend he doesn't exist.
- [10:24]
Dave
In defense of my man TP like, big veteran running back free agent deals often don't age well and he's been perfectly good since he got perfectly fine.
- [10:35]
Robert
Like in a horrible situation, he's Been perfectly fine.
- [10:38]
Dave
So that's, that's a great point. If the Titans draft Jeremiah Love on draft weekend, then you could get Tony Pollard before training camp even starts.
- [10:47]
Robert
Potentially just Tony Pollard making this year
- [10:50]
Dave
base salary six or seven million bucks.
- [10:53]
Robert
Yeah, it's seven million bucks. It's a. Yeah, it's fine.
- [10:55]
Advertiser
Pretty.
- [10:56]
Derek
That's solid for a starting running back though. That's not hurting you.
- [11:00]
Robert
What's our next one?
- [11:01]
Michael Bell
Okay, Fox Daddy has the next one. Reminder here with Fox Daddy.
- [11:04]
Robert
Sure does.
- [11:05]
Michael Bell
Fox Daddy. Let's get in the discord. This coin comes to us from discord description or the link to it in the show description. Assume for the sake of the question that the Dolphins absolutely nail this draft. All the players drafted in the first three rounds are solid starters and there's even a Pro bowl player mixed in there. What positions would they have to have drafted for you to feel curious about their offense? Or what would they have to have drafted for you to feel like they can actually evaluate Malik Willis as the quarterback going forward? We had a similar question to, to this one from Vince in our email. Derek, take this one away first.
- [11:38]
Derek
So I think the complicating factor with this is like, sure they, they have a lot of picks, but like I would say more of those need to be spent on the defense. So then it's a matter of just like how many can you even afford to spend on the offense. I think when you trade away a player like Jalen Waddle, if, if we're assuming all these players are some caliber of good, one of those guys has to be receiver. But I almost think even though receiver is a huge pressing need, tight end is a, is a massive need for this team. Like they have not had players there really since Johnny Smith left. And even that was like a very specific role when he was there. And so Julian Hill erasure. But we're talking catching passes here. You know, we're not talking, we're not talking blocking yet, which actually maybe the way this offense runs, maybe they do need a blocker. But I would say tight because right now tight end is Greg Dulcich and Ben Sims who they signed this year. Like that's, that's not really a starting caliber tight end room. So I would say probably those two spots and like they could try to swing at a guard again. Like Jamari Sawyer is probably not a long term answer for you at guard. But I would say like the offensive line can probably get by as is assuming those young players take a step.
- [12:42]
Robert
Dave and Dane just did a show this week about how there are a thousand tight ends in this draft. I mean, I assume with 43, 75, 87, 90, 94, or 130, you might be able to find a playable one. And if Makai Lemon is the 11th overall pick plus one of those tight ends, and those guys are good, I don't know. I'll watch that.
- [13:01]
Dave
I love Jaylen Waddle, right? He's a. He's a fantastic player. I'm very excited about what he might do for Denver, but I do. I'm a little bemused by the idea that, like, three weeks ago, sickos like us were intrigued by the Dolphins and like, oh, like, this could be all right. And then Jaylen Waddle leaves and everybody's like, this is a wasteland. It's not even worth looking at. Like, the Dolphins are so terrible and like, Jalen Waddle is a good player, but I refuse to believe he was holding it up to that degree where they immediately become an uninteresting team because Jalen Waddle's not there.
- [13:36]
Robert
Like, I think it's about the alternatives, though. It's not about losing Jaylen Waddle. It's about the downgrade from Jalen Waddle to what is now left.
- [13:43]
Derek
I also, it was like, to me, I think it was a specific identity, too, right? It's like, waddle. H.N. willis is like, we are way faster than you all the time, and I don't know who they can draft that would accomplish that this year.
- [13:55]
Dave
I. I think that's perfectly fair. But I. I agree with you, Derek. I mean, first of all, we got to do something with the secondary. And I mean, really, all levels of the defense, I do love. I just want to say this, though. Like, if all seven of their first three round picks were solid starters, like, I'd be ready to put the Dolphins in the wild card chase. Like, that would be if they added seven startup players. Like, that is a crazy proposition. But for the purposes of being interested in the Dolphins offense, I. I'm right there with you. Like, I. I said two pass catchers and maybe another offensive lineman that could be a guard. Maybe you drafted an heir to Austin Jackson at right tackle, but, like, however you want to do it. I. Like, as cool as Kenyan Sadiq is, I think I would draft a receiver first because there are 10 million tight ends. Like, if I could get one of the three big receivers and then I'm drafting Dallin Bentley later on in the draft, I could get. I could get pretty into that. Or if you want to take Sadiq, that's fine. Maybe we get Omar Cooper with pick 30 or Jeremy Bernard with pick 43. Like two, two pass catchers. If, if we're assuming that they're both going to be good quickly, two pass catchers would have me pretty intrigued in the Dolphins.
- [15:11]
Robert
The only problem with tight ends being good quickly, we've had a lot of them recently that have been instant contributors, but historically that's not the case. And a lot of the guys who've been instant contributors over the last few years, the only guy really drafted outside of the first two rounds who's been one of those players is Harold Fannin. Even Tucker Kraft as a rookie wasn't doing a ton. And so the idea that we can find tight ends deep into this draft, even if AJ Barner is another good example. Right. Like AJ Barnard is a solid player. He didn't do anything as a rookie. So you probably have to spend a little bit more to have an immediate impact player at that position. But maybe that happens in the second round. Who knows? The other question I wanted to just very briefly touch on this because one of the question we got by email was are we. Do we overuse the phrase like we can't evaluate the quarterback because of what's around him? And I was looking at other situations recently where have there been other examples of this where their supporting cast was so bad where you didn't feel like you could evaluate the quarterback. And they're always complicating factors with it because every time that happens where the pass catchers are terrible for young quarterbacks, it almost inevitably comes when the rest of the offensive ecosystem is so bad that it's hard to discern whether the pass catchers or the play calling was actually the problem. Like Jared Goff in 2016, Trevor Lawrence in 2021. Like there are so many examples of this and I think there is. There is a world where the pass catchers cannot be good, but the ecosystem is solid enough where you can still evaluate the quarterback. Like Mac Jones as a rookie is exactly this. And so I do think that. Well, yeah, and Drake, Drake May as a rookie is probably the same thing. But even they fired the staff after year one. Right. And so it's. I do think we probably overstayed it purely based on pass catching talent. I think the overall health of the offense becomes the most important thing. And I guess it's up to you whether you believe Bobby Slow clears that bar or not.
- [17:02]
Derek
I'm at least interested to see if he can. We talked about this before. I does I think he might like he was, listen, he was imperfect in Houston and like given the way that like they struggled to I think adapt to some things in his second season, I understand why they moved on, but it didn't feel so offensive that he can't figure things out as he gets a little bit older.
- [17:19]
Dave
Do y' all agree with me too? That and it's certainly not a perfect group, but the Dolphins offensive line gives me some degree of confidence that this could be fine and like, yeah, it's workable.
- [17:34]
Robert
It's really important.
- [17:35]
Derek
If we bake in a half step of progress from the left side, it's like that's a pretty, that's a pretty solid unit.
- [17:41]
Dave
Yeah, I mean I am, I am assuming Patrick Paul's development is going to continue in a linear way, which would be a big part of this too.
- [17:50]
Robert
Being like better than he was as a rookie. I think also has to play.
- [17:53]
Dave
That's, that's obviously not perfect logic, but there's reason for optimism that that can be true. And if it is. Yeah, I mean I do you gotta draft a pass catcher or two next month and at least one of them has to be worth a shit. But if you do that, I, yeah, like I, I will be interested to watch the Dolphins. I'm not really. As long as we are cool with the idea that they're not ready to make the playoffs, which is fair. Then I'm, I don't really get the hand wringing. Like I feel fine about the Dolphins. I love that.
- [18:24]
Robert
To me they're like 10ft away from being like a total tear down like two win team and Dave is like trying to inch himself closer and closer to it. Are they a playoff?
- [18:33]
Dave
They, maybe they are. But like there's, there's reason, I, I, there's reason for intrigue here. And the other point I would make, Robert, and it goes to the. I don't understand the hand wringing if you're not helping Malik Willis. Like, I'm sorry if this sounds callous, but so what? Like it's not this huge, it's not this crazy contract that you're going to be buried under. Like it's, I mean Robert, you've said it like 10 times. It's just a step up from the Justin Fields deal. Like I just, he's, he's getting paid a lot of money. If he can rise above it, that's really cool. If not, the Dolphins aren't going to be in some terrible spot. So I just, I'm just not spending a lot of Time losing sleep about it.
- [19:14]
Robert
I'm in the same boat. I mean, you're not in a spot where you have to do everything you can to maximize him or it's like some sort of malpractice. I think having him as a dice roll is great. I think you should stay the course in every other aspect of team building rather than leveraging yourself to make sure you're giving the quarterback every single chance to succeed. What's the next one, bar?
- [19:35]
Michael Bell
All right, Joe Yeoman takes us to silly town here. Joe says you are given the opportunity to Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. A former player to come and be part of the 2026 NFL season. Shout out. So, crates, who are you grabbing and where are they going? For me, I want to see Percy Harvin placed as a Do it all player with Kyle Shanahan and Brock Purdy. Dave, why don't you take this one first?
- [19:57]
Dave
So mine is really. It's more so about the players than it is about the specific teams. But obviously we can find. We can find some places to put these guys. But I'm just. I am so enamored by the idea of, like, I want to see how athleticism compares against different generations. And so I have. I have three names in mind. Two, and they're all, like, special athletes for the times that they played. One is Bob Hayes, who played wide receiver for the, like, original. No, I'm going way down back there, dude. Like, I don't. I don't give a damn about guys that played 10 years ago. I like. I remember that you, like, guys played 10 years ago in HD. I want to see, like, Bob Hayes or. And the other one I watched. I actually watched a documentary about him on my flight back from the Super Bowl. I think I. I want to know what Jim Thorpe would look like if he was a modern NFL player. Because, like. Like, it's the stuff of legend about. And by the way, these are. These are the only two guys to be Olympic gold medalists and Pro Football hall of Famers. Like, they were unreal track stars. Wait, what? What?
- [21:11]
Derek
Robert,
- [21:13]
Robert
I. I have questions about this. Okay. Okay. Are we, like, putting them through a speed run of, like, modern conditioning? Because the answer. The answer of how good would Jim Thorpe be at in professional football is he'd be terrible.
- [21:28]
Dave
That is the answer in this world that Jim Thorpe is, like, he exists today and he's, like, training for football, at least for me.
- [21:37]
Robert
Okay. Okay. I'm just making sure that that's the case.
- [21:40]
Derek
I thought you meant we're taking, like,
- [21:41]
Robert
Jim Thorpe when he played and just dropping him in, because that is the Bill and Ted's ex own adventure situation.
- [21:48]
Dave
I mean, I guess that's fair, but no, in my mind, I just mean, like, Jim Thorpe's athletic prowess molded for the modern day. That's fair, though.
- [21:56]
Robert
You're right. I mean, I'm just making sure that's
- [21:58]
Dave
how we're talking about this in Bill and Ted. They really did just drop them in out of nowhere. But no, this would be like Jim Thorpe if he got some time to, like, be ready for the modern game of football. But I just. I want to see what those guys would look like. And, like, Kyle Shanahan could do some crazy shit with him, or obviously Bob Hayes ran a 10 flat in the 100 meter. Like, Mike McDaniel would be all over that. It would be sick. And so I just. I would love to see what those guys would look like in the modern day. And the same goes for Gail Sayers. Like, you see so many amazing clips of him just being this untackable, you know, unstoppable force. And I would just love to put those guys in modern football. You're right. That is. It is a caveat. I'm not just dropping them in and out of nowhere. We'll give them a chance to wear, like, modern cleats and do modern football training. But I think it would be really fun.
- [22:50]
Robert
So you're taking baby Jim Thorpe and putting him in the world 20 years ago, and then we're seeing where he could go. I think that that's fair. I think that's a.
- [22:58]
Dave
And we're not. We're not going to penalize him for ruining his amateurism.
- [23:04]
Robert
You know, it's like a Superman situation. Like, you're dropping a baby into the middle of Kansas and seeing where it goes.
- [23:10]
Dave
Take Jim Thorpe and put him at Ohio State. Yeah. Coming out of school or coming out of high school. Yeah.
- [23:18]
Derek
My answer for this is always Dan Marino. It's always going to be Dan Marino putting him on. Like, this answer sucks because it's replacing, like, the coolest quarterback in the league right now. But, like, him in the McVeigh offense, like, replacing Matthew Stafford. Obviously, I wouldn't want to take him out, but I think that would look incredible. So that he, to me, is always my answer of just, like. Because we talked.
- [23:39]
Robert
You.
- [23:39]
Derek
You kind of said this, Robert. Like, oh, if we're taking a guy from, like, back then, could he hold up, Dude, Marine A. Marino's arm could. Like, there's zero Question. That dude could do it today.
- [23:48]
Robert
Those guys, physically, I mean, it's not quite the same level of training that it is now, but like, John Elway and Dan Marino in the modern NFL could survive. Like, I have a few questions about that. Mine is so you. Dave went as far away as he possibly could have in terms of time. Derek went like two generations ago. Mine is, I'm shoehorning in current events. And it's a very specific answer for a very specific reason. I want to go back to 2013, grab Levante David and put him on the current modern Dallas Cowboys so people could have an understanding of how good Levante David was. Like, we're going to look back in 25 years and Levante David is going to have made one Pro Bowl. He made, I think, three first or second team all pros. He had a career that he's going to be one of the all time. If you do not watch him play, you will not understand people. And so I want to put him on the Cowboys simply because they have a need at linebacker. And he would be the most. It's the most visible team you could play for for an entire season. So I want 2013 Levante David to just play like seven primetime games this year before retiring again, so we could actually remember how good Levante David was.
- [25:00]
Dave
Levante David, as a cowboy, would have been all pro, like, nine times. Like, whatever the record is for all pro, like. Cause he just would have. Yeah, he would have had that benefit of playing for a team like that. That's every. That's fun.
- [25:13]
Derek
Every sport has, like, someone whose numbers are just bonkers. But if you're not like a super, like, into the sport, you will see that, like, you might, like, know some of the other names, like in top tens or whatever, but you're like, who the hell is that? And there is a chance that, like, 25 years from now, like, you see Levante David, like, top of the league ever in, like, TFLs and stops and all this stuff. And people are like, I. I don't. He played for the Bucks. Like, what? They didn't do anything. Which is crazy because they did win a Super bowl with him. Yes.
- [25:39]
Robert
But that was eight years into his career. Right. And he was incredible that season. But he was also incredible for all of the seasons in between that.
- [25:46]
Derek
He's also a victim of. Like, there are also sometimes players at a position where it's like, he was always the third or fourth best guy because there was always a Luke Keakley or Fred Warner or Pat like who all these guys. And it was like that guy somehow always gets forgot. And it's wrong because he was obviously incredible.
- [26:03]
Robert
Bobby Wagner, he played in an era with multiple hall of Fame linebackers and in reality, he is a Hall of Fame talent who likely will not make the hall of Fame because of a lack of postseason accolades.
- [26:15]
Dave
Levante David and Derek Brooks is a hell of a that's a hell of a duo for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. I don't know how I'd have to spend some time looking how it stacks up, but getting those guys not all that far apart from each other is. It's pretty nice.
- [26:30]
Robert
A good linebacker history. I think the teams like the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Chicago Bears might have something to say about it.
- [26:35]
Dave
But yeah, they also have like 80 extra years of history to fall back on.
- [26:41]
Robert
All right, we're going to take our first quick break and then come back and get through a few more of your guys questions.
- [26:48]
Advertiser
Buying good seafood shouldn't feel like a gamble. With wild Alaskan company you can cook with confidence. You'll get wild caught perfectly portioned seafood delivered right to your door, frozen right off the boat to lock in fresh flavor, texture and key nutrients. Never farmed. No antibiotics, GMOs, or additives. Just high quality fish that tastes incredible every time. And it's all backed by a 100% money back guarantee. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.comcast for $35 off your first box.
- [27:31]
Dave
Missed calls, slow replies, messages scattered everywhere. If you're running a business that's not just annoying, it's revenue slipping away. That's where quo comes in. Spelled Q U O. Quo is the number one rated business phone system on G2.1 shared business number for calls and texts. Stop missing customers. Start capturing every opportunity. Try Quo free and get 20% off your first six months@quo.com tech. That's quo.com tech. No missed calls, no missed customers.
- [28:06]
Advertiser
Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive, so they set out to change that. By designing glasses in house and selling directly to customers, they're able to offer prescription eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate. And they start at just $95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you.
- [28:39]
Robert
All right, Bella, what's the next one here?
- [28:42]
Michael Bell
Okay, we're going to break the Robert, Derek, Dave cycle Here just because the question that is on deck, I want Robert to take first. So this one we're going to go to Derek first. And speaking of breaking the cycle, Saint 3, 21 says, how does a team like the Cardinals actually break the cycle of being the Cardinals? It feels like bad. Teams stay bad because they are constantly resetting leadership scheme and timelines before anything has a chance to stabilize. Is there a real blueprint for escaping that tier long term or is it basically just get a top five QB and don't mess it up? Derek, what do you got?
- [29:13]
Derek
I don't even think it's that simple. Right, like, because there are plenty of other organizations who have had decent, like, chances at. Look at the Jaguars. I know the Jaguars had a good, they had a good year obviously last year, but they were in the cycle of like, in theory, you go get the number one overall pick, you get this guy who could in theory be this top five superstar quarterback, but you are still the Jaguars and you like kind of nix yourself and like ruin this opportunity. And he only ends up maybe not quite being that caliber of guy. And so I think that can happen a lot. And then these teams that get stuck in this cycle where it's like they're constantly moving the timelines or they don't know who they want to be, they're throwing funny money around and stuff like that, it often comes back to like, the ownership deal is the same. Like, the jets have kind of always been stuck in this cycle because it's all the same ownership. Cardinals are kind of in this tier. And so I think you just have those issues based on like, going all the way, all the way to the top. And I, so long as the Cardinals are kind of operated under the same, under the same regime and stuff, I just don't know how that would change. Unless again, you happen to draft the guy and he just happens to be Patrick Mahomes.
- [30:14]
Robert
I think you can have transformational figures in your organization that are not the quarterback and that don't require an ownership change. Like Sean McVeigh is one, is one of those figures. Like, nothing else about the Rams really changed. They moved to LA, but the ownership was the same, the GM was the same. And then after Sean McVeigh got there, the Rams became one of the best franchises in professional football. I think coaches can do that. Like, I mean, that's what we're hoping for in Chicago. Like, nothing else changed. The GMs the same, the ownership is the same, but I think the right coach can really steer you in that direction. Kyle Shanahan is another one of those people. And then quarterbacks. I'm with you. I think there are some quarterbacks who can do it a little bit. Like, I do think that Joe Burrow has been, in ways like a transformational piece for the Bengals and even the way they operate, I think he's been able to put his finger on the scale a little bit, but obviously you need more around you as a quarterback, just like you said with Lawrence. Josh Allen, and the Bills is a tough one, because I think that McDermott and Bean were laying a little bit of a foundation before Josh Allen got there. And so those two things are kind of converging when it comes to, like, wholesale. How do you turn this thing around? I do think the Lions are probably the best recent example, but I think the underrated part about the Lions is along with getting Brad Holmes and Dan Campbell in there in the same year, Sheila Fordham took that over, I think, in June of 2020 is when she took control of the team. And so they fire Patricia and Bob Quinn, like, four or five months later, they hire Chris Spielman. That December is like a vice president, like a president, and I think assistant to the chairman thing as what he was. And so there was a lot of change at the executive level for that team before they hired a new coach in gm. And so I think my answer is transformational figure. Head coach or changing over ownership. I think those are the two options that get you out of that sort of rep.
- [32:07]
Dave
I'm glad you brought up Sheila Fordham, because the other thing I would bring up to give her credit for is, remember the very famous vote of confidence that she gave Dan and. And Brad Holmes? Like, midway through 2022, they were still terrible. Like, they were still not good. And she came out and was like, you know, we had a vision for this. We're sticking by it. We're not changing. And then they spent the second half of the season going on that run, and it's been all uphill ever since. So I do think a couple of things, like the. The uncomfortable thing that nobody wants to acknowledge because there's nothing you can do about it, is ownership has such a. A heavy weight in all of this. And you have to. If. If ownership's not going to change, you have to find something that is so overwhelmingly good that ownership can't screw it up. Or in the. In. In some cases, maybe ownership can at least have the patience to see it through. I feel like I bring this up a lot, but that's because I I lived it as a fan. The other example I would point to is the Saints. I mean, the Saints were a disaster class of an organization, and on top of that, a natural disaster gave them, like. I mean, it could have been an out for them to leave the city entirely. And then in one stretch of time, you hire Sean Payton, you convince Drew Brees to sign, which, by the way, almost never happened, because if the Dolphins had been more interested in him, he never goes there. And then a few months after you get Drew Brees, you draft Reggie Bush, Roman Harper, Jari Evans, Zach Stref, and Marcus Colson in one draft class, and you lay the foundation for a team that's going to be competitive and ultimately win a Super bowl, like, four years later. So even for an organization that's never experienced that and doesn't have the history of good decision making, you can still knock it out of the park to a degree that it's, like, almost undeniable. And the other interesting thing I would point out there is Mickey Loomis and Sean Payton weren't even brought in at the same time. Mickey Loomis was already there. You hire Sean Payton from Dallas, and, I mean, it's lightning in a bottle. I don't know how realistic it is to think the Cardinals or any other organization are going to do it, but it is possible to do. And so the right hire and the right talent brought onto your roster, I do think it can overcome dysfunction. How realistic it is to hope for that, that's probably a different question.
- [34:37]
Robert
You have two transformational figures at the same time there. Yeah, if it takes one. The fact that they had two at the exact same time, all you have to do is hire one of those transformational head coaches and then stumble into the greatest free agent signing in the history of the sport.
- [34:52]
Derek
So that's easy to do. What I'm saying, it's like, it's not really a process. It's just like you kind of happen to hire a guy who's insane, which, like, you have to make that hire. But it's like, that doesn't feel like a step by, step by step thing necessarily. Whereas, like, the Lions do feel like that, which.
- [35:06]
Dave
And I was, like, going back to the Lions real quick, Rob, But I. I think, like, the Lions are a more. I think that's something you can emulate a little more. Like, I say this all the time, but it's worth remembering that Jared Goff was a salary dump. That's what he was when he got there. And then you draft enough other kick ass players behind him and you believe in the guys that you brought in, in, in Dan Campbell and Brad Holmes and if you surround that guy with enough other badass talent, you can build a hell of a football team.
- [35:36]
Robert
That is by the way, this, this conversation that we're having about the type of coach you need to drag yourself out of this situation is why that if you're a team that is just completely down in the shit, I just, it's hard for me to justify like some mid tier retread head coach. It's just so hard for me to justify. I think that there are plenty of good arguments for retreads in specific situations, but if you're one of these teams and you're shooting just for like, ah, let's just be competent for a little bit. That to me, even if you can find competency, the chance that you find one of these transformational figures is just very, very low. What's the next one?
- [36:19]
Michael Bell
Okay. Dan Hula says as a lifelong die hard Bears fan, I've gone through many phases of fandom. As a kid I just enjoyed watching the games with my dad, diving into a pillow fort with a Nerf football and pretending to be checks, notes Neil Anderson. Which makes me and Dan roughly the same age. My teenage and college years turned me into a fanatic. Game watching was a social experience and a way to identify with not only friends, but the city of Chicago as part of my identity. It also involved the most alcohol and most pain because of how intensely I took every game. As I got into my 30s, I became more cynical and started noticing the cracks in the foundation, ownership, management, absurd local radio more than the football itself. I live in Toronto now, I'm about to turn 40 and I just enjoy my 8 year old becoming obsessed with the Bears. It's so much fun to share it with him and the losses hurt less for me partly because we finally have a fun quarterback. I feel like this is the pinnacle moment in my time in my Bears fandom and I'm wondering what you all think is the best time along the human life spectrum to be a fan or is it simply dependent on the team being good? Robert, what do you got here?
- [37:16]
Robert
I think the team quality is hugely important, but I mean me and Dan are very similar in age and so I think I've lived a pretty similar sequence in the way that he has. My favorite time being a sports fan and being a Bears fan specifically was my teenage in college years that that was my favorite time rooting for the team. I think that it's two different things. I think that you're like an adult, so you have like adult thoughts. You know, like your brain works, you know how to, you're interacting with it in the way that you would as you become a fully formed person. But you also have no responsibilities. And so it can just completely consume your life in a way that's fun. I mean, my favorite year as a sports fan. So my freshman year of college, it was the 2006 Bears. They went to the Super Bowl. I was away from home. It allowed me to kind of feel close to home again. I remember talking to my dad every Monday about those games. 2010, when they went to the NFC championship game was my senior year. And so high school all the way through college was hugely important. 8 year old, 8 years old I think is another really good time to be a sports fan. Like that's when you become like a kid, right? Like again, you know the stats, you know the players. Like our producer Scott, like his son is like around that age and you can feel like how cool it is to have a kid that's turning that age in the way that they interact with sports. And I assume, and I don't know this yet, but being a dad and being able to interact with a kid that is engaging with sports for the first time that way has to be hugely valuable. So I would sequence it like teenager college. When you first kind of have your consciousness awoken as a sports fan when you're like 7 or 8 years old and then I assume being 40 with a kid that's that age or being 50 with the kid, that that age is really cool. Those are the three, I would guess.
- [38:59]
Dave
Do you think there's, and I mean I'm, I'm not a father either. But being around Scott and his son during this past Bears season was like, it was just special. Tangentially, like to you know, the Bears packers games and the way the Bears won those games and you're just like, man, experiencing that with like your 8 year old son and watching him get hooked has got to be the coolest thing in the world. So I, I, I think that is probably really special, albeit I don't know myself from like personally and just from your, the way you digest the team as a fan independent of anybody else, it's gotta be when you're younger, I think because everything you just said, Robert, like obviously you don't have bills, you don't have a mortgage, you don't have any of other other of that. And also you can still look up to these guys a little bit more as like super human beings. Like, I think you lose a little bit of that when you become older than these guys. And don't get me wrong, like NFL players are still superhuman compared to like what I'm capable of. But at some point you start to feel a little weird, like worshiping what a 25 year old is doing on a football field. You're like, I'm almost twice your age and I'm trying to pay for a wedding and do all this other shit. It just changes the way that you interact with the game. So yeah, I would agree with you. Like high school, when you're, you know, you're rushing to school on Monday to talk to your buddies about what happened and like talk shit to your friend in the other class who is a fan of the rival team. I don't know that it gets a whole lot better than that. I will say though, because the last part of Dan's question is, is it dependent on how good the team is? I was 30 when 2019 LSU won the national title and Joe Burrow and Jamar Chase and Justin Jefferson. I was 30 years old and that was still, I mean it was, it was unlike anything ever. And I, and it like, it put me into a different place. Like when the, when the team is so good that you're like, what I'm seeing is historic and it will never get better than this that all bets are off after that. Like you can enjoy that at a different level no matter what age you are. Speaking from experience, I mean, that was
- [41:10]
Robert
me and Bella with the 2016 Cubs. Right? I mean it's just I was for sure 20, I was 29 when they won that World Series. Bella was probably 42, 43, 32.
- [41:21]
Michael Bell
I turned 32 at the end of that season. But yes, that like, I mean I have unbelievable Mark Grace and Ryan Sandberg memories. But that is my favorite Cub season and I was 32 years old at the end of it.
- [41:32]
Derek
I don't have a whole lot here. I will say I grew up, I do think quality of team really does matter. I grew up in Florida, close enough to Gainesville and so the 2006 to like 09 Chris leak to Tim Tebow era Gators were when I was like 9 to 12 years old. That was a really good time to be a Florida Gators fan. And that was incredible. Everything after that, actually I, I, I've often said this. The Gators when they, there was something about the Will Musk champ teams where it was like you knew what you were going to be, which was obviously after this period. It was after Urban Meyer, where it was like, we're going to be a top five defense. All the defense is going to kick ass. Everyone is kind of insane. The offense is going to be like the 70th best in the country and we're going to hate our quarterback. I knew what I was getting and I appreciated that they hired McElwain. I am so sick, dude. They hired Jim McElwain in 2013. And I was like, they don't know what they want to be anymore. It's over. And they have, like, floundered as a college since then. Highlighting that was kind of when I give up.
- [42:30]
Dave
The Will Muschamp Gators because they had good linebacker play is insane. Like, it's crazy.
- [42:37]
Derek
Those teams with like, Dom Easley, John Bostic, like, Dante Fowler, John Bostic, my God, Dominic Easley is my favorite Gator of all time. That guy was incredible.
- [42:47]
Dave
That is insane. Espec like you just said. I mean, yeah. 06 to like 2009 Florida is like a run, no doubt.
- [42:55]
Derek
Yes.
- [42:55]
Dave
They put, like, guys in the NFL
- [42:57]
Michael Bell
basketball championships in there too.
- [42:59]
Dave
But no, no, no. Screw Brandon Spikes, Percy Harvin and all these other guys. I want to talk about John Bostic. Bostic was solid class right there.
- [43:08]
Derek
The thing is, too, Dominic Easley came out the same year as Aaron Donald. And I was like, that's they're the same player.
- [43:14]
Robert
And then obviously I thought Dodd McEasley was going to be so good.
- [43:17]
Derek
I thought he was going to be incredible, dude. He. If his knees worked, he would have been.
- [43:21]
Robert
I appreciate Dan's acknowledgment that also in when he was in college and those, Those Bears teams like 06, 2010 is when he was drinking during those games the most I my blood alcohol level by the end of the 2010 NFC Championship game after the Caleb Haney experience was I. I just can't even describe what state I was in after watching that game in a bar. It was. It was a bad situation. So. Shout out to Dan.
- [43:46]
Michael Bell
Shout out to Dan. Great question. Let's get to the next one here. Sean Kearney. I feel like every draft season we hear the idea of drafting a tackle with the potential he could kick inside and play guard if needed. Are there any examples you can think of where this has happened and been considered a success? It feels like most tackles taken early who don't work out don't end up having that second life. So why is it always seen as a potential benefit Dave, you've been building the beast for a few months now. What do you got here?
- [44:09]
Dave
So I wanted to. I wanted a qualifier. I wanted to see what y' all thought about this. Like, are we including guys that move to guard before they ever play? Okay, we're moving to guys.
- [44:19]
Robert
That list is endless. I mean, that's like, there's so many examples of that.
- [44:24]
Dave
The list is endless. All right. But even still thinking about this, I think Sean makes a good point, and that's. I think we talked about it on an episode of the show earlier this week where, like, in the case of a Spencer Fano or even a Francis Mauinoa, if the guy might have to move to guard, is he ultimately worth, like, a top 10 draft pick? I think that's a very valid consideration. Having said that, I thought of a few guys off the top of my head, like, right within the last year or so. Kingsley Sua Mataia is playing better at guard than he did at tackle where he was originally drafted. Makai Becton helped the Eagles win a Super bowl at guard. Titus Howard, I think you could argue is a better guard than tackle. And then this one, I'm cheating a little bit, but Tyler Smith could absolutely play either position and has, like, they. The Cowboys kicked him out to tackle because Tyron Smith got hurt in his second year and he was good. He's a better guard, but he can do both. And when they drafted him, they weren't sure where they would play him. So, yeah, I think it's not as good. Like, the list of guys that move to guard before their career even starts is definitely so much better, but you can find examples of guys that have found success after moving inside, for sure.
- [45:38]
Derek
And I would say to the point of the question, it's like, there aren't a lot of guys who were just bad tackles and then went to guard and, like, turned it around. Like, there are some, like, you know, the Makai Becton example is a good one. There are a couple examples of guys doing that, but usually it's like a King of the. Matai is a good example. Tyler Smith was obviously a really good tackle. Sam Cosmi played right tackle early on in his career. He moved to guard. He's been kick ass there. You mentioned Titus Howard. Justin Pugh also played tackle for a little bit in the NFL before mostly moving to guard for the rest of his career. And then I went back even a little bit further. Roger Saffold played tackle for the Rams for a while and then became, like, an awesome, awesome guard. Especially during like those early McVeigh years towards the end of his career. So it's, it's more often decent tackle gets moved to guard and then just becomes a monster than it is like bad tackle moves to guard and has a career. But you know, there are some examples like Tevin Jenkins I thought was a good guard. Once he moved there, it just like injuries and stuff kind of took it away. So there are some examples, but usually it's like capable tackle moves to guard and just becomes a Pro Bowler.
- [46:41]
Robert
Yeah, I don't, I think it's abject failures. It doesn't happen that often. But I think like Derek said, the guys that were just kind of like mad tackles moving to guard, I think there's enough examples where it doesn't feel like you're reaching or you're building like you're building lists of exceptions. Like I had 10 names. I had Kingsley, Sumataia, Sam, Cosmi, Alex, Boone, Coleche, oh, Semile, James, Carpenter, Roger, Saffold, Andrus, Pete. It was never a good player at either position, but he was more functional at guard than he was a tackle Makai back then. And I also had Tevin Jenkins. And so there, there's a decent amount of examples. But like to Dave's point, the list of guys who just immediately were college tackles and played guard, there's a lot of hall of Fame players on that list, like Zach Martin's on that list. Joel Batonio was one of those players. I wrote a story in 2015 about all of the guys playing guard in the NFL that were college tackles and how many positive examples there were of that. And so there's tons of those. But even guys who were allowed to fail, quote unquote at tackle and moved inside, I think there are enough of those where you should be open to the process. All right, we're going to take one more quick break and then come back and hit a few more of your questions.
- [47:53]
Advertiser
This message comes from Jackson. Taxes aren't something you can only think about once a year with investments planning for tax days year round. Fortunately, Jackson offers tax efficient products. Visit Jackson.com for more information on how our products can make your tax bill a little bit less painful. Jackson is short for Jackson Financial Inc. Jackson National Life Insurance Co. Lansing, Michigan and Jackson National Life Insurance Co. Of New York Purchase, New York the future moves fast.
- [48:21]
Ave points shift happens Podcast is your edge where leaders unpack AI data, modern work and the mindset shifts that turn change into advantage. Hear what top innovators are trying next and how to make it work, visit AVPT Co shift today.
- [48:48]
Guys, it's no use putting it off. The best time for an underwear refresh is now. Tommy John Underwear is designed for a perfect fit that stays put all day. There's zero chafe thanks to four times more stretch than competing brands and their innovative horizontal quickdraw fly is a game changer. With over 30 million pairs sold, there are thousands of men out there more comfortable than you. Don't settle for less. Go to tommyjohn.com today for 25% off your first order with code comfort. That's tommyjohn.comfort Tommy John comfort perfected.
- [49:24]
Robert
All right Bow, what's the next one?
- [49:26]
Michael Bell
All right, let's stay in the draft mindset. We are approaching the draft after all. El Rocco 337 says during a discussion about Fernando Mendoza. You all seem to say he could be the 12th best quarterback in the Raiders. Should be happy with that level of production. While I understand the sentiment, didn't we just see this play out with Miami and Tua and Arizona and Kyler. Tu and Kyler were clearly better than any quarterback either of those teams could readily find as a replacement. But they weren't top tier guys yet. Their teams still had to give out top dollar contracts because they didn't want to head back into the quarterback wilderness. If you have a QB who is good but not great, eventually you find yourself in a Kobayashi Maru. That's a no win scenario for people who haven't watched Star Trek. That includes me. Kobayashi Maru situation where it comes time to pay your above average quarterback elite money and you either do it knowing you will regret it or spin the roulette wheel. If the Raiders don't think he can ever be a top five guy, should they take Mendoza knowing his best case scenario is he's paid like a top five guy when he doesn't produce like that. Robert, why don't you take this one first?
- [50:23]
Robert
Yes. What are you going to do? I think that there are the two a situation is that's a nonstarter to me. Like two was never a good quarterback and so this idea that he was a top 12 quarterback is. No, he never was a top 12 quarterback. I don't think he was ever an above average quarterback in the NFL. Kyler, if you put a very well built team around 2021 Kyler Murray while you were still paying Kyler Murray not a lot of money, I think you can win the super bowl with that sort of team. I think they mean the Eagles are an example of this like what they did with the Carson Wentz, Nick Foles combination. I do think that in that rookie quarterback window, in that five years, you can absolutely build a Super bowl winner around a quarterback that is a top 12 player. The Rams did this with Jared Goff. If Bryce Young was the 12th best quarterback in the league instead of the 22nd best quarterback in the league right now, we would probably talk about the Panthers as a team that could potentially win the Super Bowl. And so I think there are tons of examples. CJ Stroud is a player like this. Like if the rest of the Texans offense, if the offensive line was good enough over the last couple years, would the Texans be a potential super bowl team? I think absolutely the answer is yes. And so, yeah, are you going to be in a position when you get to the end of that contract that you're going to have to make a decision? 100%. But I also think there are teams that could have won the super bowl with Kirk Cousins on the contract that he was on. It requires you to be a do a better job building the rest of the team around the quarterback. You have way less margin for error after you pay the guy. But I think this type of process is significantly better than any of the alternative timelines. What are the alternative timelines?
- [52:09]
Derek
There just isn't one. And I also think like with quarterback, it's like, I think we've gotten to a point where we kind of believe that 10 through 20 can be a little bit like amorphous just depending on the season, depending on surrounding cast, all that stuff. But there is a line and like if your quarterback dips below that line, you just don't have it. And like paying for anything above that line, even if you're not getting quote value for it, like you're, you know, whatever that is the one position where paying for competency is the value. And so, you know, you've kind of said this before, Robert, like winning in the NFL is winning with a Ryan Tannehill. And the reality is that a Ryan Tannehill is the 12th best quarterback and you're paying him like the fifth best. I also think that like it's not a guarantee that Mendoza is only the 12th best quarterback. He could be really good. I know that like myself and like others are not necessarily putting him quite in that elite tier of quarterback prospect, like maybe Joe Burrow when he came out or anything like that, but there is still absolutely a chance that a guy like that does turn into the sixth best NFL quarterback. And so I still, again, you cannot pass I mean, he could. I mean, I'm not saying that I believe that he is that good, but, like, he is physically. He's the prototype. That is the one thing that I do think, like, people are kind of missing with Mendoza. He's like 6, 5, 2, 30, runs pretty well, and has an absolute cannon of an arm. Like, he's built to play it in the way that you should be built.
- [53:29]
Dave
Fernando Mendoza loves LinkedIn and gives, like, dorky interviews. And so I feel like people have him conflated with some sort of, like, I don't know, like, wimpy choir boy or something. Like, Fernando Mendoza is like a. A prototype sort of guy. Like. Like, we're not just compare him to the two dudes we're talking about. Like Tua, who's a pretty undersized guy who also had a major injury in college, and then Kyler, who's like a historical outlier among quarterbacks drafted that highly. That's not Fernando Mendoza. Fernando Mendoza is like, he, He. It looks and is the part of a guy you draft number one overall. So I think that is a difference worth highlighting. Number one, and then number two, I would just say. I know, like, some people aren't going to want to hear this because you get into a situation where, like, like, if. If we're not winning and competing for the super bowl, what the hell are we doing? And that's the end goal. And I get that. But even in the case of tua, where, like, a lot of people thought the deal was a bad idea at the time, a lot of people saw it coming. I think that's totally fair. And I get that it didn't look good in the playoffs. The Miami Dolphins still with Tua as their guy. And, and like in the Mike McDaniel era, 9 and 8, 11 and 6, 8 and 9, 7 and 10. Like, even the bad years are such a step up from where the Las Vegas Raiders have been for most of the last quarter century. Like, with the exception of one and a half good Derek Carr seasons, Raiders fans should do anything to have that sort of success. Even if they never sniff the super bowl, even if they go to Kansas City and play in minus 5 degrees and, like, don't score any points like the Dolphins did, you should sign up for that every time if that's what Fernando Mendoza gives you, because that's what you get with a franchise quarterback. It wasn't as good for Arizona, but even at one point in Kyler Murray's career, the Cardinals, like, the first year he was good, The Cardinals were 6 and 3 looking like a playoff team and they fell apart and then the next year they were as good as 10 and 2. We can have a whole conversation about Cliff Kingsbury. Is he a good coach and does Kyler fade down the stretch and that's all fair. That's another stratosphere from what we associate with like the modern day Las Vegas Raiders. So you sign up for that every single time and hope that it can be better in the long run.
- [55:57]
Robert
If the, if the Arizona Cardinals during the Kyler Murray experience, stop drafting Smurfs at receiver and draft a single defensive player and pay it, play him in the right position. Like we might be having a different discussion about this. We the Bo Nicks is an ankle injury away from Bo Nicks playing in the super bowl potentially and likely a few months ago. Jalen Hurts won the super bowl two years ago. Like it's, I just think that there are more quarterbacks capable of winning Super Bowls and the spectrum of them, especially when they're not getting paid very much, is wider than we want to say it is. Derek, my question to you about this. I'm. I'm not going to Let this Fernando Mendoza 6 Best Quarterback in the league thing slip away simply because I think it's harder to be the sixth best quarterback in the league than you're making it out to be. Is the path to Fernando Mendoza being the sixth best quarterback in the league, him eventually becoming Dak Prescott?
- [56:50]
Derek
Yeah, probably like that like him being like that style of quarterback that probably is the move and I think especially like when Dak was younger and he could move around a little bit more like that probably is like I was
- [57:00]
Dave
going to say young Fernando's more mobile than Dak at this point in his career. I know Dak was pretty mobile as a younger player, but like right now
- [57:07]
Derek
and like this, this I'm helped a little bit by the time that like let's say this is all you want this to happen year three as it is with every young quarterback. Matthew Stafford's out of the league by that point. So that helps a little bit. But like, like I guess more realistically it's like 7th or 8th or 9th or something like that. But like I do think that he can climb above 12th and it's not going to be like that. It wouldn't be that crazy. Like he's built. He ha. He is more physically impressive than a number of the other like elite quarterbacks right now, which like that's not all it boils down to. But he does have like, more to him than some of the other guys.
- [57:35]
Dave
Well, and to your point, Derek, if everything after the top four or five is nebulous, which I completely agree with, like, I'm, I'm kind of done trying to rank it past the top four or five. I just don't even know if it's possible.
- [57:49]
Robert
Well, you better get on board when we do. Who's the sixth best quarterback in the league again come June?
- [57:53]
Dave
You got it. My answer was the right one, by the way.
- [57:56]
Robert
It was. It certainly was.
- [57:59]
Dave
But like, if Fernando Mendoza is the 12th best quarterback in the league on average, isn't it completely plausible that in a year, like for a year or two over the course of that career, he plays like the sixth best quarterback? I think that's completely reasonable.
- [58:13]
Robert
And if he gets to that general range by the end of his rookie contract, then it becomes an even different discussion. The 12th best quarterback making $8 million might as well be the fifth best quarterback. If you look at the types of teams that have won Super Bowls over
- [58:28]
Derek
the last 15 years, a hundred percent, like, exactly. And I also think with, with where got, like with how quarterback development works, like, I don't think him being the 12th best guy by year three means that he'll be that forever. Like, some guys age really well into 29, 30. Like it took what, seven years for Matt Ryan to become what he became. And obviously Matt Ryan was good before that and had other really good seasons. But like, to really crescendo, like, that is kind of what I mean.
- [58:55]
Robert
I've, I've used this phrase a lot when it comes to quarterbacks. And the coach said this to me and I, I keep, I go back to it and it was right on the heels of Matthew Stafford winning the super bowl with the Rams and we were talking about what types of quarterbacks can win you Super Bowls. And obviously having a blue chip quarterback is the most important thing. And then having a redshift quarterback on a rookie contract was the second most valuable thing. But the other bucket of quarterbacks that can get you there are the redship quarterbacks who have those blue chip stretches or with the right things around them, could feel like blue chip quarterbacks. Matthew Stafford is one of those guys. Matt ryan Winning the MVP in 2016 is one of those guys. Dak Prescott is one of those guys. I'd make an argument that like the best years of Kirk Cousins felt like that. And it kind of seems like Fernando Mendoza could have like that shape to his career. And I will hit again. The point of Just think about how you would look at this year's Carolina Panthers if Brock. If Bryce Young was the 12th best quarterback in the league. Just think about how you would project them moving into this season if that happened. Because to me, the way that they've been able to wield the rookie quarterback contract, the way that if you look at their draft and the way they built the team, it feels pretty middle of the road, right? Like, it feels like an average set of results for what their draft picks have turned into. It's not overly great, it's not overly bad. And they've been able to backstop just that average output in the draft by being able to wield the money that they have. And I think that if he was like the 12th best quarterback, I don't want to like offend anybody, but like, if you dropped. Let's just, let's just do this. If you dropped 20, 22, Kirk Cousins onto this year's Carolina Panthers and he was making Bryce Young's money, they absolutely would, like, we would talk about them as a potential team that could surprise people, win the super bowl, run away.
- [60:44]
Dave
Yeah, they would say NFC south favorites, without a doubt. Yeah, for sure.
- [60:49]
Robert
So I think that's, that's what I would go back to like. And I think that again, the Texans are another good example of this. I think it. When you have to pay the guy, it's a different discussion.
- [60:58]
Derek
Right.
- [60:58]
Robert
I get that. But I still think that if he's the 12th best quarterback, he is worth paying that sort of contract.
- [61:04]
Derek
And I also think that, like having paying the 12th or 13th best quarterback and like trying to figure out over the next three years if you can make the money work and all that stuff, that's a good problem to have. The problem with paying quarterbacks is when you're paying like Daniel Jones after the Giants year, like that amount of money that. That is when you get problems. But if you're paying quarterback 12, like quarterback four, that's a good problem to have. Like, you're obviously again, not getting value for the contract, but you have a good player on hand and quarterback 12
- [61:30]
Robert
is somewhere between 8 and 12. We just said that, you know.
- [61:32]
Derek
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
- [61:33]
Dave
If you're worried about what you're paying for Nano Mendoza in five or six years.
- [61:38]
Derek
Right. Let's get him on the roster first.
- [61:40]
Dave
You had so much more success than anybody in our age range in. I mean, when was the last time the Raiders were that consistently good? It was so long ago. And I think that matters too. Like, the team in question like if. I mean, if you're picking one overall and it's been that type of time since you've really had a franchise guy, what are we even doing? Yeah, like, I'm signing up for that every single time.
- [62:06]
Robert
There's like a tier of quarterbacks right now that again, it's. They're not top five guys. They're probably somewhere in that like 6 to 15 range that we've talked about or 6 to 12 that we've talked about. But if Fernando Mendoza is making whatever the market number is five years from now, let's call it. I don't even want to throw the number out there because it's going to cloud the conversation. If he's making market money five or six years from now and you put him in the same tier of guys that currently exist, that's Jordan Love, Dak Prescott, Brock Purdy, Trevor Lawrence, Jalen Hurts, even Jared Goff. The quarterback contracts are not. Are what is preventing those teams from
- [62:41]
Michael Bell
winning the Super Bowl.
- [62:42]
Robert
They are making it harder that eventually it is going to get harder. Your margin for error increases, but it's not the reason that they're not getting there. And I also, if it's tua, that is the reason.
- [62:53]
Derek
Yeah, exactly.
- [62:54]
Robert
That's the problem.
- [62:55]
Derek
When you dip below the line and are paying for it, that's the problem. But if they are above the line, yes, it does make it harder. But it's like there is value in having a guy that keeps you competitive every single year so long as the rest of the roster is not like complete disaster mode. Like, I know we just mentioned Lawrence, but like, those rosters were horrible for a minute there.
- [63:13]
Robert
All right, that is all we've got for today. For the rest of the week, we are just continuing to roll through our NFL draft coverage. Our second episode of on the Clock. It's going to be coming your guys way tomorrow with our friend Jordan Reed from ESPN. We're going to be hitting picks six. Excuse me. We're going to be hitting Picks 7 through 12. The Washington Commanders are just over the moon with who is left on the board as we get to their spot on the clock tomorrow. They got Jeremiah Love still there. Caleb Downs is still there. Carnell or no Carnell, Tate went to the Brown, so he is not there. But Jeremiah Love is available to Washington at 7. So we'll see if Jordan decides that's where he wants to send Jeremiah Love. Building the Beast's gonna be back your guys's way on Wednesday and then a couple more draft shows coming later. In the week, including the start of our positional breakdowns, which I always look forward to every single year. For now, that is all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or Follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like comment and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.
- [64:21]
Advertiser
Hi, this is Farnoosh Tarabi from so Money with Farnoosh Tarabi and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile Quick Money Stop paying a Carrier Tax if your phone bill feels trapped in a pricey plan, this is your sign to Unlock Savings. Boost Mobile helps you reset your spending with the $25 Unlimited Forever plan. You can bring your own phone, pay $25 and get unlimited wireless forever. And that simple switch can unlock up to $600 in savings a year. That's money you could put towards paying down debt, investing or something that actually brings you joy. Those savings are based on average annual single line payment of AT&T, Verizon and T Mobile customers compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com the future moves fast. Ave Points Shift Happens Podcast is your edge where leaders unpack AI data, modern work and the mindset shifts that turn change into advantage. Hear what top innovators are trying next and how to make it work. Visit AVPT Co Shift today.
- [65:42]
Robert
That new thing?
- [65:43]
Dave
Yeah, we've got it.
- [65:44]
Robert
The Drop by GNC bringing you all the newness that matters. Hand picked by the pros who actually
- [65:50]
Dave
know what's up and what's proven to work. We keep you on top of the
- [65:53]
Robert
trends and dialed into what's next. Whether you're crushing it at the gym,
- [65:57]
Advertiser
leveling up your game or thriving every
- [65:59]
Robert
day, the Drop by GNC is where
- [66:01]
Dave
the latest solutions in health and wellness
- [66:03]
Robert
land first non stop innovation and fresh finds daily.
- [66:07]
Advertiser
Explore what's new and what's next on
- [66:09]
Robert
the Drop by GNC.