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- [00:00]
Jonathan
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- [00:35]
Dave
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- [00:36]
Jonathan
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- [00:57]
Dave
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- [01:00]
Jonathan
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- [01:11]
Dave
Can we sleep cooler?
- [01:13]
Jonathan
Sleep number does that cools up to eight times faster and lets you choose your ideal comfort on either side. Your sleep number setting J.D. power ranks sleep number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store and online. And now the more you buy, the more you save on beds, bases and more. Plus get free premium delivery on any bed with base limited time for JP Power 2025 award information visit JD power.comawards check it out at a Sleep number store today. Feels like we're doing this every 48 hours or so over the last couple weeks, but a strange season has strange has turned into a very strange coaching carousel a couple 10 days, two weeks after John Harbaugh is fired by the Ravens about a week after Mike Tomlin moves on from the Steelers. John McDermott out as the Buffalo Bills head coach after nine seasons. I don't even know where to start with this, Dave, but surprising news this morning. In some ways, not surprising in others. The fact that the Bill season ended this way. I don't think anybody should be shocked by this, but I also kind of think it's strange or funny timing considering how some of the other Bill seasons ended and that the job I thought that Sean McDermott did this year specifically.
- [02:35]
Dave
I like that framing because this is now three times in the last two weeks where we get on this live stream and say there are a lot of reasons why this isn't surprising, but I still wind up pretty surprised that they pulled the trigger. Like we, we had the wherewithal to talk about Harbaugh and Tomlin and Sean McDermott maybe potentially being in trouble if seasons didn't go well. And still given what they've accomplished and how long they've been in their roles and and what they mean to those organizations. I mean I like it's worth thinking about who the Buffalo Bills were before Sean McDermott became their head coach. And so even if we can point to a dozen reasons why this makes sense, it still winds up being surprising when a team is, is willing to do this. And now it's, it's three of them all in the afc. By the way, outside of Andy Reid, who's the longest tenured coach in the AFC right now, I want to circle.
- [03:31]
Jonathan
Back to that idea about the Sean McDermott role in the Buffalo Bills rebuild and what the franchise is now at some point. But let's start with I think how we get here and we've talked about this a million different times over the back half of the season, how strange the playoff pool is and what's missing from the playoff pool this year. This is the year where the MVP level alien quarterbacks are not in the playoffs. Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Josh Allen, literally your two last MVPs, one of them is not here and then one of them is quarterbacking a six seed that has to dig itself out of a wild card to get there. Like they were not a favorite in the AFC field despite the fact that those other quarterbacks were not involved. So it was a strange year. The fact that, that that happening is directly tied to the fact that both of those teams fired their coaches like those, those things are inextricably linked and so they feed into one another. And, and the Bills specifically, you watch what happened at the end of the year and I think that obviously they've fallen short consistently. They've been so close in so many years and it just never been able to get it over the hump. This year specifically though, you look at what the talent level was on the roster and what McDermott his purview is the defensive side of the ball. I know he's not the defensive play caller anymore. You know Bobby Babbage handles a lot of that stuff. But you're a defensive minded head coach. You I think get tied to the results on that side of the ball over the last couple seasons. When you watch what the defense was for the Bills by the end of the year, especially that last year in 2024 against the Chiefs, I know that they have a cornerback injury at the beginning of that game and that fuels it, but the defense really lagged over the last couple seasons. At the end of the year for the Bills this season specifically, I thought that the defense, they were getting about as much as they could from that roster by the end of the year as they had been in each of the last few seasons. And so that's why I think the timing is kind of funny that this is the year where I actually feel like the defensive staff was doing the best job they had done in a while and this is the year that they fire the coach. But at a certain point when you have Josh Allen as your quarterback, you can only fall short so many times before somebody else is going to get a chance, the legitimacy of that choice be damned.
- [05:42]
Dave
It feels like a weird year for it though, doesn't it? I mean, it's a weird year in general, but it's a great point by you. And I remember in like October, maybe even later than that, like when they lose to the Falcons and even in some the, the Dolphins for sure. Oh my gosh. And even some wins that they had. Like we had the conversation where it's like, is this run defense, does it make the Bills a non starter and to be where they were the. And not to absolve him from blame entirely, but like the way Sean McDermott has shaped this unit into something functional despite injuries and personnel deficiencies over the last few years, I really do find it impressive. I don't disagree with you that when you fall short this many times, I mean he's, he's already scapegoated coordinators in the past. Eventually it comes home to roost and eventually you're the only guy left to take the fall. I totally get that. But it happens in a year where what's the, you know, what is the offensive play caller that can maximize Josh Allen that's out there. I mean, I guess you would say Kevin Stefanski and he took the Falcons job while Sean McDermott was coaching in these, in this playoff game over the weekend. So what is that upgrade that is going to get the most out of Josh Allen and take this thing to another level? I mean, it obviously doesn't have to be an offensive coach. That's where your mind goes when you fire somebody like Sean McDermott, who I think has mostly done a really Good job with the defense. So it's, it's just a weird timing to be in this spot, in my opinion.
- [07:16]
Jonathan
Well, to me, my mind doesn't go to who can maximize Josh Allen. It's like what offensive play caller could have maximized the weapons that you had on this offense.
- [07:23]
Dave
Had that completely fair too.
- [07:25]
Jonathan
And that becomes to me the real conversation to be had about where the Bills are right now. Sean McDermott. There have been years of. Sean McDermott has fallen short with super bowl caliber rosters. I don't think this was a Super bowl caliber roster. I think that the staff overall was doing a pretty good job with the pieces that it had been given. We're going to do our post mortem about the Bills later this afternoon. It's going to be part of the Monday hangover show that we're going to release overnight. And I was kind of doing the initial thinking about that and looking at some of the holes on the team and where they need to get better. There are so many like there are so many places where this team needs more talent and then even the places where they don't, right. They're too off and I don't want to step on that conversation too much. But they have two offensive linemen hitting free agency this year and they don't have any money. And so even areas of strength are spots where I think it's going to be difficult for them to be as good next year because of some of the places where they've spent poorly or where they've allocated resources and it hasn't really worked out. If you look at this team right now, I still come back to the idea that they just aren't good enough across the board and everyone's going to point to the draft record that Brandon Bean has. And I think to say that it's been really bad overall I think is mischaracterizing it a little bit because there have been a lot of mid round hits that have turned into contributors for the Bills. If you just go all the way back to like, I don't know, let's look at start in 20, 21.
- [08:57]
Dave
Okay. I, I looked at this earlier this morning when I knew we were going to do a show. I mean you can find from Khalil Shakir to obviously James Cook, Osiris Torrance, for where you drafted him has been a perfectly good player.
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Jonathan
Spencer Brown to me is the best example. You get him.
- [09:12]
Dave
Spencer Brown is how you get a.
- [09:14]
Jonathan
Really good right tackle at 93 overall. And Christian Benford, yeah, you get a A corner of his caliber in the sixth round there, there have been a decent amount of those. But you look at this Bill's roster right now, there are no stars, there are no stars outside of Josh Allen. There are, there are some really good players that you found at a value right now. If you, if you were game planning for the Bills on either side of the ball, who is the player you are most scared of other than Josh Allen.
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Dave
James Cook and a healthy Ed Oliver.
- [09:51]
Jonathan
It's a short list.
- [09:52]
Dave
That's what I got.
- [09:53]
Jonathan
Yeah, yeah, it's a short list. And I think that even if there have been some hits, as you get a little bit further down the draft, again, guys that have outplayed their draft position, the idea that your first round picks or first two round picks over the last several drafts, we got Boogie Basham at 61, we got Kyre Elam at 23, Dalton Kincaid at 25, Keon Coleman at 33. I mean that those are the misses that inform the lack of stars on this team. And it is harder to find those guys when you're drafting 25 to 32 than it is when you're drafting in the top 10. But you look at a team like Baltimore, for example, there's not even like a Kyle Hamilton on this team. They don't have those sorts of pieces. There are some good players on this team. There are not a lot of difference makers on this team. And you feel that when you get into this part of the season and obviously they were banged up in so many ways. And I think this whole thing about how the receiving core is a disaster, which it was by the end of the year, like Josh Palmer was supposed to be a contributor for this thing in a way that he wasn't. They thought Keon Coleman would take a step. It was the worst eventuality for that position group specifically that you possibly could have imagined. But at the same time, the place where you land is it's just not good enough and it's just not been good enough. And so to fire the coaching staff and promote Brandon Bean as the person who's overseeing the roster, I think that's where I look at this and I'm like, I don't know, man. There are some. There are larger considerations here than just who's coaching the team. When you look at what they were working with by the end of the.
- [11:23]
Dave
Season, that's the other half of this that, that has to be mentioned. Within a half hour of McDermott getting the ax, Brandon Bean is promoted to president of football operations and has oversight of every aspect of the organization. I said it on Twitter. I'm willing to keep an open mind about this. I don't think you need to have a firmly cemented take in the immediate aftermath of this. But, like, it just feels off and weird to me. I. I don't really like it. I don't. I. I'm with you. I'm with you. Like, the. The Bill's failures feel more personnel related than something specific Sean McDermott is doing in these games. At least, like, at least in the last couple years. And, yeah, to like it. To have it feel like a power grab where, like, Brandon Bean gets elevated after this decision. I don't love it. And you throw in the.
- [12:23]
Jonathan
The.
- [12:24]
Dave
The new stadium opening on top of that. I mean, you always have to account for things like that when an ownership group makes a decision. And I guess that's my point is, like, if you. If you make this move, ideally you would be doing it for. For like a no doubter. Like, everybody's gonna be on board and excited, and it's. It's obviously gonna do this for us type of h. Think the parallel a lot of people are going to bring up is Tampa Bay moving on from Tony Dungy and bringing in John Gruden and. And he was the offensive wunderkind at the time, and obviously the Buccaneers won the Super Bowl. Who's that guy? Who. Who is that guy that the Bills are going to hire, especially at this late stage in the cycle where guys like Kevin Stefanski and, you know, whatever opinion you have of John Harbaugh, you know, he's off the market anyway. It's, like I said, it's. It's strange, and I don't know. I don't know how optimistic I am that they're going to, like, knock it out of the park, which you kind of, I think, need to do when you make a decision like this.
- [13:25]
Jonathan
Yeah, we'll dig into some of the personnel stuff again later when we have that Bill's conversation with me and Derek today to tomorrow. Just some of the things that need to change. But I. I understand why Brandon Bean keeps his job for a lot of the quieter reasons that play into decisions like this sometimes, you know, and in the statement that the Pulas put out, they talked about, you know, Bean's leadership of the organization and that being something that was really important to them. And that makes total sense. I mean, Brandon Bean is. I think people really like working with Brandon Bean. I think he's a good face of the franchise. I think that There are a lot of things that when he's kind of at the centerpiece, like the center of the organization and like how it functions, that's the way they want things to be. I completely understand that. Like I. Brandon Bean is very agreeable, amenable person. I think personality wise, a lot of people really like him and get and get along with him. I do think that the leadership qualities he brings to the table are worth maintaining. But I think you also have to understand the roster isn't good enough. And maybe the coaching staff plays into that at a certain point. Like you're seeking out certain body types or certain types of players where you're kind of pigeonholing yourself into a certain type of defense. And maybe that is an issue with this where they've gotten smaller and faster consistently on that side of the ball and they've realized some of the limitations of that. And I don't want to absolve the coaching staff of any blame for why the roster didn't develop the types of stars it needs to for you to compete at the highest level. But however they arrived here, the players aren't good enough. And I think that's a consideration for whoever the next coach is when it comes to that decision and who the next coach is. I'm in the same boat that you are. There are times in this process where you think about the candidates, you think about the openings, and one of them just. They just speak to you, right? Like John Harbaugh going to the Giants was easy to understand. It was very easy to see why he would want to go there and why they would want him. And even in the statement that he put out after taking the job, his main refrain was it's the New York Giants, right? And there, there is still appeal to that when you are a person in the NFL universe, in the NFL world. And so I understood that marriage. I always saw Kevin Stefanski in Atlanta. If they offered him that job, it just made sense based on what I thought they needed and based on what I thought he might want in this cycle. So the fact that he ended up in Atlanta, very easy to picture. It's harder to do that with the Buffalo job. And not because it's not an attractive job, it's an insanely attractive job. The chance to get to work with Josh Allen is crazy.
- [15:53]
Dave
Real quick, where do you, where do you stack Baltimore and Buffalo now? I mean, the last.
- [15:58]
Jonathan
I think Baltimore is still ahead.
- [15:59]
Dave
To me, Baltimore's got the better roster.
- [16:02]
Jonathan
It's a better roster, and I think it's a better process. Like, I just think that Baltimore has a, a better history of consistently effective team building. And I'm not, I'm not saying that Eric DaCosta is like consistently hitting all these home runs. There are areas of Baltimore's roster that I think have atrophied a little bit over the last couple years. And Steve Bushadi, I'll tell you, that's the coaching staff, you know, with the offensive line and all that. But there are areas of Baltimore's roster that probably aren't good enough. But when you look at some of the things that the Bills have had to do with how they've had to scramble, restructuring contracts, spending a lot of cash, something like the Von Miller, the Von Miller move, they just, they've had to kind of borrow and stretch themselves a little bit thin in a couple areas to make up for some of the draft misses in ways that Baltimore just hasn't. I think that Baltimore in the, in the front office and personnel, the player acquisition side of it, is more of a well oiled machine than it is in Buffalo. I think you can make an argument that for reasons we both know and maybe know a little bit less about, working with Josh Allen is a little bit more attractive than working with Lamar Jackson. But I don't know if that's enough to offset where I think the player acquisition process is in Baltimore versus where the player acquisition process in Buffalo sits. That's kind of where I land with it.
- [17:24]
Dave
I mean we said it when the Baltimore job came open. Like even if Lamar Jackson can be a pain in the side at times, he's Lamar Jackson. So yeah, I think that. Yeah, and, and I agree with you. And I think people get tired of hearing media praise for the way the Ravens do things and they're certainly not perfect, but well oiled machine is right. And it just seems like they have a plan, they have a consistent ethos. Like right off the top of my head. I mean the, the way that they're always so far ahead in the comp comp pick game is so admirable. Their draft process is usually good even if they're not always right. I just. The, the synergy that the Ravens work with is very enviable. That says the fact having Josh Allen makes it a 1B though.
- [18:10]
Jonathan
Exactly. The fact that the Ravens job is more attractive than the Bills job is just because of I think so many aspects of the Ravens organization and how it functions. This is an insanely good job. The idea that again, the last two quarterbacks, two of like the Three like alien guys at the top and you throw burrow in there, whatever. But these, these are like the special quarterbacks in the NFL. And the fact that two of those jobs are open in the same cycle is wild. And this is still an incredibly attractive job. I understand the appeal or the, the instinct to immediately go to the offensive coach as part of this where it's like, oh yeah, well, we just had the defensive guy and we need the offensive guy to maximize that side of the ball. We have Josh Allen. I, I personally think that as I look at the way that these teams build this stuff, I think that when you want the offensive play caller and when you want the offensive play caller to make sure that you're consistently good on that side of the ball. I am more a fan of seeking out that type of model when you have quarterback six through 20 because that's the way I think you consistently maximize that quarterback. Or you have a young quarterback where you don't know what he is. Right. Like when you were at the Bears last, last cycle when you're the Jags last cycle, like that's what I would seek out. When you have Josh Allen, obviously you need a certain level of play calling, but I also think that you can conceive of things a little bit differently because you already have a factor on that side of the ball that is going to consistently give you an opportunity to be one of the elite offenses in the league. So this is one of those jobs where I'm more open to do. We hire the right defensive guy to make sure we're maximizing that side because we already have a force on offense that's going to make us really good year over year.
- [20:00]
Dave
That goes back to what you already said though, where like, and I don't want to cape too hard for Sean McDermott, but like I said, I am so impressed by the way Sean McDermott has duct taped this defense together at times, particularly going back to like 2022 and 2023. And I feel like you already had a coach who could get good results out of a bad, like out of a bad situation. And, and to your point, is it more the roster, which that's not a problem we can fix. The Bills have made that decision, but I feel like you already had that guy.
- [20:36]
Jonathan
I don't, I don't want to frame it that way necessarily because I, again, I don't think that Sean McDermott is without blame. He's some of the Bill's limitations defensively because I do think that some of it is driven by how he wants to play on that side of the ball and the types of players they want on that side of the ball. Like this idea that the way that their back seven looks and just the, the way they play, then the types of body types they're seeking out. Like, I do think that plays into some of the limitations that the Bills have. And so I feel like just kind of scrapping things and starting over on that side of the ball with a blank slate is probably the best move. And there are types, there are certain players where the guy I, when I was thinking about this this morning, and I still think that I would hire him or consider him if I were the Ravens, the guy I was thinking about this morning when I was trying to make a pairing in my mind that makes sense, like somebody like Jesse Minter for a job like this, right? Like, you come in and you can get the most out of the defensive talent. There's some guys on that defense where I'm like, how does Gregory so fit into, like, what he wants to do defensively? But I think that stuff is overstated. But I think that's where my mind goes, where it's like, let's just move on to an entirely different philosophy and model on defense because this one has completely run on a road. And can we try with that sort of pivot to get to a place where we can seek out different body types? And is that. Is that what they need? But again, there isn't like a clean answer for me. I've struggled to find one as I've tried to work through this in the hour since I got up.
- [22:03]
Dave
Isn't Jesse Menor the guy who we said we just don't know his Rolodex and like, and like, I mean, maybe Jesse Menor does have a slam dunk OC higher. And, and if I met with him and he told me his plan and I liked it, that's one thing. But you saying that I don't want to hear shit about how good your defensive scheme is if you don't have the name of a rock star OC Because I. What I'm not going to do is hire you to waste Josh Allen.
- [22:32]
Jonathan
So I don't think you can waste Josh Allen. That, that, that's my stance. If when you look at, when you look.
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Dave
That's not a gamble. That is not a gamble I am willing to make. Like I'm not fired.
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Jonathan
Ken Dorsey, when they had a top five offense. Like, I just don't think you can ever waste Josh Allen. Can you leave some Meat on the bone. Sure we've seen them do that, but I just don't think there is a scenario where you can waste him. And that's why I think it just opens you up to different pathways than some of these other teams that have to make sure they're doing everything they can to maximize the offensive side of the ball.
- [23:05]
Dave
Not getting the most out of Josh Allen is wasting him. Like no, I dis, I disagree with this and like I get your point. Like to a degree Josh Allen should be coordinator proof. But I'm not leaving that to chance. And, and I know like I don't think the Bills would ever wind up in as bad of a situation as like the Eagles. But what I don't want to do is be having like these semi regular occurrences where everybody's trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with an offense that has the, the best quarterback in football or, or one of them, you know, and that is, it is possible that can happen. Look at the, look at the Chiefs. Look at what's going on with well look at Kansas City the last couple years. Like that has not been a fun group and, and Patrick Mahomes is still the best quarterback in the world. I know what I just said about Josh, but like just because you have one of those guys doesn't mean you are completely impervious. And the idea of just saying Ah, it's 17, it'll be fine. I hate that.
- [24:03]
Jonathan
I don't think you're completely impervious, but I think you are protected in a way that very few other teams are. Again, I think you can change your thought process about I, and this is me like I can change my thought process about the guys I would seek out because of what the quarterback provides you. When I'm just thinking about the models that work, right? Like if you look at where the defensive minded head coach teams where they consistently win, they often have elite quarterbacks like that. History will tell you that, right? Like Bill Belichick won a lot of Super Bowls. It really helped that he had Tom Brady every single year. Sean McDermott was consistently winning with the Bills. It really helped that he had Josh Allen every single year. So I do think that, that that pairing has worked. If you just look back at history and maybe that's driven more by the quarterback being there than whoever the, the head coach is. But I still think that that model is something that I'm more open to with this type of setup that I would be in like a general NFL building.
- [24:58]
Dave
No, I, I, I agree with the overall point. But like the OC, I. I better trust that the OC knows what he's doing. And I mean, Josh McDaniels was not cut out to be a head coach, but he's a hell of an offensive coordinator and he's doing it with another quarterback now, another talented quarterback, but still. And, you know, I don't. I don't know if he's the guy that. I don't know if he is a guy that you tap for this opening, but Joe Brady's done a nice job since they elevated him into that spot. I just. It doesn't. It doesn't have to be the best play caller in the world, but I do. I want a degree of confidence that. That Josh is. Is insulated, I guess.
- [25:42]
Jonathan
It's funny, I just. I've been racking my brain for the last, like, hour since this came across, and I was like, who. Who is the guy that makes the most sense there? And I. I can't land on, like, a clean answer. And I will be curious to see who they seek out, what the interviews look like. Davis Webb is somebody that. That name has come up a decent amount, you know, since this news came out. Him and Josh Allen are, like, really good friends. I don't know if I like that. Like, I actually think that's kind of strange.
- [26:08]
Dave
That's why people mentioned. That's why people mentioned Dable, too, which. His name has been floating around since the moment.
- [26:14]
Jonathan
I'm not a fan of that. I like. I think that I would rather seek out something new and different than something like that. I mean, I think some of the issues that the Bills ran into on offense were partially driven by the fact that, you know, Dable really pushed them to a certain place in, like, 2021, 2022, where, I guess it was 2021. But, like, you saw the shortcomings of that offense and the way that it operated, and I think they had to have a pretty strong pivot away from that in order to develop into the type of team that they are right now. And so I really don't know. I wish I. Again, it's been like an hour and we did not plan on doing this. And so I've been, like, racking my brain. We'll have a lot of time to consider this over the next week or so, and I think we'll get some signal by who they're interviewing and what that looks like. But even that now, the timeline of that is strange because they can't interview the coaches that are still in the playoffs. If there are teams that make the super bowl, they have to delay that even further. And so getting started now, compared to a couple of weeks ago, puts them in kind of a strange spot. Do some of these candidates wait? Because this job is open. Like, it really does throw, like, a huge wrench into what the hiring process might look like over the next two to three weeks.
- [27:24]
Dave
The answer to that is yes. Like, if. If you're a coach that's getting asked to do multiple interviews, like, Brian Flores is pumping the brakes on anything that's happening right now.
- [27:36]
Jonathan
Robert.
- [27:36]
Dave
Robert sala and Mike McDaniel probably both got on the phone with their agents immediately when they saw this. Come across their phone screens, like, yeah, this is going to throw a wrench and everything. I'm just trying to think, I guess. Okay, so of the teams that are left playing like Davis Webb, you got to wait on. And Clint Kubiak, you would have to wait on. And I guess the Rams guys.
- [27:58]
Jonathan
Yeah, any of the Rams guys.
- [28:00]
Dave
Any other Rams guys. So, yeah, there is a. It's a pretty. That's a pretty long list of guys that you would have to wait to.
- [28:05]
Jonathan
Talk to, which I. Josh McDaniels.
- [28:07]
Dave
I wonder how that affects. No, Right? Like, no, they couldn't.
- [28:13]
Jonathan
It was. I was joking. I was joking.
- [28:15]
Dave
Between. Between McDaniel's own history and the division rivalry aspect of it, that would be bonkers.
- [28:21]
Jonathan
Just let Josh McDaniels be Drake Mace play caller for the next 15 years. Let's just. Let's let that happen and have everybody be happy.
- [28:27]
Dave
I like that plan.
- [28:28]
Jonathan
I. I did want to re. Come back around to something that you said, because I. I think it would be so disrespectful to leave a conversation like this and not talk about this side of it. They never got there. What Sean McDermott did as the head coach of the Buffalo Bills is remarkable. Like the fact that the Bills are now one of the teams that we just expect to be in the divisional round every single year. When they make the divisional round and lose, if you can fire the coach because you're falling short of your expectations, a ton of that is driven by Josh Allen. We know this, right? Like, having one of those quarterbacks gives you a shortcut to being that sort of team consistently over and over and over again. But this started before Josh Allen even got there. Like, when you go back and you look at what that 2017 Bills team was in year one under this regime, and they have. I think they provided such a good roadmap for how you can dig out of being one of the laughing stock teams and really make yourself into one of the respectable teams. That first offseason where they go get Jordan Poyer, they go get Micah Hyde, that first draft that, that happened, it was kind of a transformational draft. They get Dion Dawkins, Trey White and Matt Milano in that same draft, and eventually, you know, that shapes who you are on both sides of the ball for the entirety of your tenure. That defense, immediately you saw kind of the ideas that were trying, they were trying to, like, feed into it. And I just think that what that model looked like and how great of a job they did in immediately digging themselves out and becoming a team that showed it was headed in the right direction. And then obviously you get Josh Allen the next year and it supercharges everything, but it can't be overstated how impressive it is that this was a team that just could not win for so, so long. And now you're in a spot where when you lose in the divisional round, it's a disappointing season. And I think Sean McDermott deserves a lot of credit for that.
- [30:22]
Dave
Let's just, let's just remember some, some Bills moments. 2017. Obviously everybody's going to remember the 4th and 12 that Andy Dalton hit that sent the Bills to the playoffs, which the Bills had, I believe, the longest playoff drought in North American sports in 2017, when John McDermott got them to the playoffs like it is. And even like people in our age range and older who like, remember the Bills being a moribund franchise. It's wild how quickly you can forget that.
- [30:53]
Jonathan
It's 1999. Yeah, 1999. So their last playoff trip was in 1999. The Bills, before 2020, when they won a playoff game, had not won a playoff game since 1995.
- [31:06]
Dave
Wow.
- [31:07]
Jonathan
So it'd been 25 years and like.
- [31:09]
Dave
They have completely flipped to being NFL royalty. Like one of the, One of the three most important markets to the current NFL 2017 was the Nathan Peterman 5 interception game. 2018. I have a really vivid memory. 2018, the Josh Allen Bills beat the shit out of the Minnesota Vikings in a bloodbath, like survivor pool game. Like everybody was on the Vikings to beat the Bills and the Bills just whooped their ass. And then I have a vivid memory of 2019. I believe the Bills came into Dallas on Thanksgiving and beat the shit out of the Cowboys. And it was like a very. Not that the Cowboys are like a league power, but beating the shit out of the Cowboys on Thanksgiving is still like a Very announcing yourself type of moment. And it's wild to think about how far they've come and agonizing to think about how close they were to going further at least two or three times.
- [32:14]
Jonathan
I mean, you can't leave this conversation without talking about how different we would think about the McDermott tenure if the 13 seconds thing doesn't happen. You know, if they win the super bowl that year and there's no guaranteeing they would have, but that was. That was their best shot. Like, I think that was their best team overall. And if they win the super bowl that year, how much changes with the way that we discuss Sean McDermott, with the way that we discuss Josh Allen? I mean, it's not saying anything revelatory here. It is one of the most striking and famous sliding doors moments in modern NFL history. And to think back on that now, where they never got. They've got closer than that. Obviously. They've got to the AFC Championship game once since then, but.
- [32:56]
Dave
Yeah.
- [32:56]
Jonathan
But felt like their best chance, you know, with that. With that team and knocking off that Chiefs team and so to not do it that year and then kind of keep seeking out that sort of team in that sort of moment and never quite getting there. It's one that I'm sure they will think about for a very, very long time in Buffalo until. Oh, they do not. They know.
- [33:20]
Dave
It's interesting, too. We talked about this with Harbaugh is like the baggage, right. And like everything that happens in Buffalo is framed in the concept of 13 seconds and Tyler Bass missing a field goal in the divisional round and the AFC title game. You know, Josh, you know, the fourth down in Arrowhead. And so you turn the page to a degree. But the same thing with lamar. Josh turns 30 this year and so the urgency isn't going anywhere. Even if. Even if the principal figure, like the guy that has taken so much of the heat is gone, it's going. I mean, that is a Goodness gracious. The guys that are taking the Baltimore and Buffalo jobs are going to be in a pressure cooker from. From day one. Because it's. Yeah, no, that they absolutely should be, but it's going to be. It's going to be cinema to watch these new coaches try to find their footing in cities that desperately needed to get these teams over the hump yesterday.
- [34:26]
Jonathan
All right, well, I have plenty more to say about the Bills and what comes next for them on the show we're doing this afternoon that will be much more focused on the roster and just the things that need to change there and where some of those holes are. Because that's the conversation we were originally planning on having before the Bills decided to fire their head coach this morning. So a lot more to come on this. A lot more to come this week. Appreciate you guys tapping in with us. We'll talk to you very soon.
- [35:02]
Dave
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- [35:06]
Jonathan
Then stay in bed and let a Boost Mobile expert deliver and set it up for you.
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Dave
Oh, actually they will have to get up and open the door.
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Jonathan
Oh, right.
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Dave
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- [35:18]
Jonathan
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Dave
You call that a knock knock joke?
- [35:26]
Jonathan
This isn't a joke. Boost mobile really sends experts to deliver and set up your phone at home or work. Okay.
- [35:31]
Dave
It's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with it.
- [35:34]
Jonathan
Like I said, this isn't a joke.
- [35:36]
Dave
So the knock knock was just you knocking?
- [35:38]
Jonathan
Yeah, that's how doors work.
- [35:39]
Dave
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro delivered and set up by an expert wherever you are. Delivery available for select devices purchased at boostmobile.com, terms apply.
- [35:47]
Jonathan
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