← The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
NEWS: Mike Tomlin steps down as Steelers head coach after 19 seasons
00:23:54
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- [00:00]
Robert Mays
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- [02:31]
Robert Mays
This has been just an incredible two weeks covering the NFL. I mean, every single moment it feels like something newsworthy or exciting is happening. We finished that playoff game last night. The Texans destroy the Steelers. We have a considered conversation about what the future might look like for Mike Tomlin, thinking that it's probably a remote possibility that this actually ends. When you think about how long Mike Tomlin has been there, what sort of mainstay that he's been. And then this afternoon news comes across Mike Tomlin stepping down as head coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers. We addressed a lot of this last night, but now that we know this is the situation, the question becomes what happens next? But just walk me through your initial reactions to the fact that Mike Tomlin. Mike Tomlin will not be the head coach in Pittsburgh.
- [03:19]
Dan Kadar
My official reaction is if I had a nickel for every time you and I had to hop on an emergency live stream after a long tenured AFC north coach moved on from his job in the wake of a very disappointing loss, I'd have two nickels, which is not a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
- [03:37]
Robert Mays
It's more nickels than you might think you'd have. It's.
- [03:40]
Dan Kadar
And, and I also will say I actually, I listen to our shows back a lot when I walk my dog and I listen to the la. This, the show from last night, this morning and I like. So it was fresh in my mind when I heard the news and I was like, I feel like that conversation aged really well, all things considered, which is. It's not always the case when you're dealing with up to the minute news and, and major changes for organizations. But I thought we laid out a pretty good case for why it might be a good idea. Obviously it's very important to. Steelers did not fire Mike Tomlin. He is stepping down, which I think we, we brought it up last night. We brought up the parallel to Sean Payton and I think this, it's. It gives him an avenue to take a step back and it seems like a, it seems so obvious that he'll probably do something like TV and be in one of those studios. And then it sets the Steelers up to benefit from his return to coaching in a year or two years. And that just all feels as plain as day to me right now. Like Mike Tomlin will be traded to another organization at some point and give this thing another run after a break of whatever length. That's my, that's my gut reaction.
- [04:53]
Robert Mays
There's part of me that when the news came across, I was like, well, I don't know how much else I have to say other than what I said last night, because we really did lay a lot of it out. But just kind of rehashing that discussion from last night and why I think this is the right decision for the Steelers, I think it's pretty plain that you have just reached the same end over and over and over again. Like this version of the organization, it was probably time to do something different. And so even if Mike Tomlin isn't the one to say, I want to do this, I think it was time to have a conversation with Mike Tomlin about what the future should look like. And so, on the Steelers side of it, I think it's pretty obvious as to why it might have been time to seek out a new direction every single year. If you're going to get beat up by double digits in the playoffs and you're going to feel no closer to being competitive than you have in each of the last four or five seasons, you have one of the oldest rosters in the league. It did feel like we were nearing the end of something here with Pittsburgh, and so I think that that's totally understandable. On the Mike Tomlin side of it, there's also a dead end that you've reached. You have no clear path to a quarterback. There really is a feeling that you've kind of dug in and dug in and dug in with this version of the Steelers. And I do think Mike Tomlin still has something to offer as an NFL head coach. I think that's undeniable.
- [06:06]
Sponsor Voice
But.
- [06:06]
Robert Mays
But I feel like he would be best served to seek out a fresh start where maybe you have a young quarterback that you can build around. Maybe you have some of those things that you couldn't find in Pittsburgh that were the reasons that you kept running into these roadblocks at the end of these seasons over and over and over again. So, for both parties, I do think that this made sense. And so the fact that we're here, I don't find it that surprising.
- [06:32]
Dan Kadar
It's a slight variation of the John Harbaugh thing, and I think the baggage with John Harbaugh was we got so close the last two years, and really, one of those seasons we should have been in the super bowl, and we weren't. And it's. And it's just a lot to overcome. I think it hangs in the psyche of the. The. The organization and the people in the building. It. It obviously hangs in the psyche of the fan base. And for the Steelers, obviously, you haven't been close to winning a Super bowl.
- [07:01]
Adrian Wojnarowski
But.
- [07:01]
Dan Kadar
But considering where they've been with Mike Tomlin and some of those amazing teams that won a Super bowl and reached another super bowl and was the standard for what you want from an NFL organization, particularly an NFL defense, for so long and to know what that looks like under that head coach, like, you know what Mike Tomlin's best teams were and you know how far the. The recent versions of the Pittsburgh Steelers are from that, I think that's hard to overcome. And when you factor in the stre of. Of consecutive winning seasons, regardless of how much stock you put in that or how much you care about it, it's just. It's hard to. To start that over. And so I think it's. It's best for the Steelers to move forward with somebody where that's not hanging over everything. And you put it perfectly last night, Robert, like that the standard of reaching the playoffs is there. You just turn the page. It doesn't mean that Mike Tomlin can't be successful later, but it really felt like this was best for everybody. And like I said, just. Just a slight difference between this and Harbaugh, but I mean there were. They were in such similar situations and I don't think it was particularly surprising for either organization to wind up coming to this conclusion.
- [08:16]
Robert Mays
I think there's nuances between them that are important to point out. With Harbaugh specifically, it seemed like there was a disconnect between Harbaugh and some of the most important players on the roster. And I think that informs the decision ultimately from Baltimore. Baltimore showed that ceil that the Steelers haven't over the last couple years. And I think that's an important thing to think about the Steelers. It doesn't seem like there was a disconnect between anyone. This team just isn't positioned the way it's built in order to be a competitive contending team in 2025. And I think part of that is because you get to the end of every single year and because you're picking 20th every single season and because you have like real pillars, expensive pillars of the roster, all you're really doing is each year when you get to 10 and 7 and they get blown out in the wild card round is okay. What small things can we tinker with in order for this to feel slightly different next year than it felt like last year. And that is only going to take you so far. The stated goal of we're always going to compete. We always expect to be in the playoffs that's who we are every single year. With Mike Tomlin, that's a good thing, but can also be a bad thing by moving on from Mike Tomlinson, no matter who you hire. Let's say it's Brian Flores, let's say it's whoever. The idea of trading TJ Watt this spring, how much more palatable is that after moving on from Mike Tomlin than it would have been when you have the stated organizational goals that Mike Tomlin is bringing into every single season? Those types of things that feel a little bit more seismic and feel different and feel like you're changing your operating procedure, I think you free yourself up to that in a way that you couldn't while Mike Tomlin was the head coach.
- [09:56]
Dan Kadar
You know, it's funny because Mike Tomlin doesn't play like he's not in between the lines on game day. But it reminds me of the conversations that you wind up having about a very veteran quarterback, like ironically, Aaron Rodgers, who more so his time with the packers than his time with the jets or the Steelers. But when you have somebody like Tomlin or like an advanced quarterback like that, everything you do is about or is supposed to be about what's going to get this guy over the hump, what's going to make us contend here in the later parts of his career? And it's, it's not a one to one because Tomlin can keep coaching for decades if he wants to. But yeah, it's, it's just a frame of mind and a frame of reference of like, okay, this is, this is the standard that we've gotten used to. This is what Mike Tomlin has proven capable of. So everything has to be about that. And that's not to say the Steelers should ever be okay with winning two or three games, but at some point you have to have a reset and, and I, it didn't feel likely to ever happen. While Tomlin was there, the Steelers were.
- [11:00]
Robert Mays
I think they finished third and snap weighted age. The last time I looked at it at the end of this season, they were one of the oldest rosters in the league. There are two main acquisitions on the defensive side of the ball this offseason were Jalen Ramsey and Darius Slay, two defensive backs that are 30 years or older. They were one of the oldest rosters in the league this year. They have seven picks in the top four rounds. They have five picks in the top 100. If we woke up on January 13, 2027 and the Steelers were one of the five youngest teams in the league, that would not surprise me. And I think that's the direction that they need to go. And I think we're. It's. We're right there. That is not some huge transition. It's a small nudge, and I think without Tomlin, it's easier to get to that nudge. And I think you can even take it a step further. Right now, you're still not in a position most likely to draft a quarterback. If you want to take a dice roll on somebody in the late first round or the early second round, because you need to start doing that, fine. But I think the Kenny Pickett situation has probably scared you off to that bit. I feel like trading somebody like T.J. watt right now, seeing what you can get for him, and starting to add even more ammunition for when we get to the 2027 draft. I think that is the place in terms of mindset that you should be if you're the Steelers. And I think it just becomes so much easier to do that when you have both in the building and what you're projecting outside the building, shown people that you're willing to turn over a new leaf.
- [12:25]
Dan Kadar
You just reminded me of one of my very favorite tweets from this season. I wish I could give credit to the person that said it, but I. I'm thinking of this off the top of my head, so I'm sorry, but at some point this season, somebody tweeted, mike Tomlin will say something like, we can't eat soup with forks. You need spoons for that. And then the Pittsburgh Steelers will sign a 2018 Pro Bowler. Like, that's. That's been. That's who they've been for the last five or six years.
- [12:53]
Robert Mays
Exactly right.
- [12:54]
Dan Kadar
And. And. And the reason that that tweet went so viral and became everybody's favorite is because of how true it is and who the Steelers have been. And that's been their pre. Predisposition, at least in the post Roethlisberger era, maybe longer than that. And so, yeah, like, to get out of that hamster wheel, especially, like, it'd be one thing if the Steelers were. Were viable, but like I said last night, it's remarkable how many times they've been playoff caliber and not, like, you know, schemed their way into a wild card win or made a surprising run at the AFC Championship game. Like, if that was happening, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But every single year, they get there and they look like they don't belong. So what are you holding on to?
- [13:40]
Robert Mays
It's not something that's worth holding on to. And I'm glad that I think they, they realize that. At the end of the day, I'll be curious what the quarterback plan is for next year. Like, I think no matter who the coach is, and we'll have a lot of time to talk about this. But as I think about it right now, like my first instinct is you do something like a Malik Willis. Like you give Malik Willis something that's maybe a step up from like the Justin Fields contract this offseason where there's a pathway to a future at quarterback, but you're not hamstringing yourself if it doesn't work out. And then you have resources potentially in the 2027 draft, if you do win six, seven games next year, that potentially give you a pathway to find that guy. If Malik Willis isn't that guy, that's going to be like the biggest question outside of who the coach is, what they do at quarterback and why, but a youth movement and a reset for that organization I think makes a ton of sense that I actually think is in their best interest. Now the question becomes what type of coach and who and what type of coach should the Steelers seek out and who might that coach be? Because the Ravens job, Ravens jobs, ready made, right? The Ravens job is an incredible job. You have an organization that wins between 11 and 12, 13 games every single year. You have a two time MVP quarterback who's 28, 29 years old. Like that thing. There's no ambiguity about how good of.
- [14:59]
Dan Kadar
A job that is, the best job available.
- [15:01]
Robert Mays
There's no doubt, easily, easily, the Steelers job is a very good job, but it's a different sort of challenge than the Baltimore job where you walk into it and there's an expectation that you compete for a Super bowl immediately. And so I wonder what type of coach the Steelers seek out. And sometimes Mike Tomlin was hired what, 20 years ago. So I don't want to ascribe the same thinking to this process that they applied to the Mike Tomlin process when they hired a 35 year old, relatively anonymous defensive coach and he became one of the longest tenured head coaches in the NFL. I don't think they necessarily go the same route again, but this has been an organization that has been willing to make some surprising decisions when it comes to their head coaches. And so I am fascinated at what type of coach they are going to seek out in this cycle and where they ultimately land.
- [15:52]
Dan Kadar
It's also, Tomlin was their third head coach in history. Like Chuck Noel had the job Forever. Cower had the job forever. Tomlin had the job forever. I have no idea what they might like. It's not like you have a history that you can really look back on. And yeah, the Tomlin hire was outside the box and surprising at the time happen. So you'd be silly to try to think that that's some sort of blueprint. My one thing is, and this is, this is vibes only, but we've talked about it a lot, right? This is a year where the candidate pool skews very heavily toward the defensive side of the ball. Like most of the guys that make sense cut their teeth on defense. And doesn't it, like, doesn't it feel like that's what the Steelers want anyway? Like, I guess, you know, I didn't, I said I needed to see it, to believe it, to think they'd move on from Tomlin and they did. So maybe I'm wrong, but I just, I feel like the Steelers are going to want a DC like that's so ingrained in their, in their culture. AFC north, cold, gritty, grimy, black and blue football. It's hard to imagine like an offensive whiz kid being the higher there. It's not to say it's.
- [17:05]
Robert Mays
But should it, but should it be because of that?
- [17:07]
Dan Kadar
Yeah, of course. I mean, yes, it would be nice to see teams buck those trends when necessary. And I think we brought it up when we talked about Harbaugh too. Like you're seeing the Bears reap the benefits of that and the Bears are absolutely one of those teams where you're like, oh, can't you just imagine them hiring a defensive head coach? Isn't that what they'd rather do? But I don't know. I don't think they have a lot of regrets about hiring Ben Johnson, although there isn't a Ben Johnson in this cycle.
- [17:34]
Robert Mays
There's no.
- [17:35]
Dan Kadar
It's. If it's a weird year to try to buck that trend, I guess is a better way of saying that I've.
- [17:41]
Robert Mays
Developed some pretty if not strict than generally applicable criteria when it comes to my position where I want an offensive minded, play calling head coach. There are certain boxes that I think I want to see checked before I'm willing to hire those guys. Box number one. Did you succeed at a high level without an elite quarterback? If you have Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, those sorts of guys. Peyton Manning back in the day, like how many coaches did Peyton Manning get jobs for? Adam Gase, Mike McCoy? Like I, that's. I don't care about that. That's not what I'm. I find impressive when it comes to head coaches because I don't think that's as replicable as it is from stop to stop. Did you do it with a non elite quarterback? Did you do it for multiple years? If you were able to construct a top 10 offense multiple years in a row without an elite quarterback, those are the guys that I'm going to bet on every single time. That's exactly what Ben Johnson is. Liam Cohen was not that Liam Cohen did it for one year. And so I think that there's a little bit more volatility baked in, but he absolutely checks the box of the first one. Those are the guys I'm seeking out. The number one offensive coach that is getting all of these interviews this year in the cycle is Clint Kubiak, who's done it for one year. So there is, there are no candidates in this cycle that meet the boxes I want checked for like the types of offensive coaches that I'm going to bet on.
- [19:01]
Dan Kadar
You know what? This may what you made me think of right there. And it's worth saying again like Tomlin was not the hot name the year that the Steelers hired him.
- [19:10]
Robert Mays
So neither was McVeigh. You don't have to be the hot name.
- [19:14]
Dan Kadar
Well, so that's what I was about to say. The name that came to my mind and maybe it's because I follow that team really closely, but you made me think of Clayton Adams when you said that where he's not your, he's not an in the box candidate. He didn't call plays for the Cowboys this year. He did have a top tier quarterback in Dak Prescott this year, but also Arizona's offense completely fell apart when he left the building. And, and they had a good offense the year that obviously he wasn't the OC but they had a good offense while he was there, particularly a really good running game. That's just off the top of my head. Like of course if you do the right kind of search, you can find a head coach that, that could meet these standards even if it's not on the national radar of that, you know that short list that, that often gets mentioned for openings like this.
- [20:00]
Robert Mays
I think Clayton Adams is a year away from being one of those names.
- [20:03]
Dan Kadar
That should be probably.
- [20:04]
Robert Mays
I would agree but that's where I would land with that.
- [20:06]
Dan Kadar
The reason I bring it up is just because you would have said something similar about Tomlin when he interviewed for this job.
- [20:13]
Robert Mays
There are two guys and I'm willing to admit that I'm probably not using enough of my imagination as I land on these. There are two guys where I can understand the thinking, and I could see them on the sideline in those colors as we start the 2026 season. The first is Steelers head coach Brian Flores. Seems to make a lot of sense to me.
- [20:35]
Dan Kadar
He's already been in the building.
- [20:36]
Robert Mays
Yeah, it seems to make a lot of sense to me. And I understand the criticisms of Brian Flores. I understand how it ended in Miami. I think that based on outside looking in and, you know, talking to people over the last couple years, I think the interpersonal parts of the job were some of the things that he struggled with when he was in Miami. I think that working for Tomlin for a year and working for Kevin o' Connell over the last couple of years and seeing it done a very different way. Brian Flores had been in one building before he got the Miami Dolphins head coaching job. He watched how it worked in. In New England, where it works a very specific sort of way. And the. How Mike Tomlin works and how Kevin o' Connell works is very different than how Bill Belichick worked. And so I think that Brian Flores getting another run at this, after getting to see how different people operate within that gig, that is something I'd be interested in. And I do think that he would be a compelling candidate for them. And the other one, he's not an offensive coordinator, but if we're talking about offensive candidates in this cycle, I'd at least want to talk to Kevin Stefanski.
- [21:42]
Dan Kadar
Sure. Of course.
- [21:45]
Robert Mays
Those are the two guys I would think about. Okay.
- [21:48]
Dan Kadar
Can I throw you a very unimaginative one that came to my mind. And again, the Steelers made an outside the box hire last time.
- [21:55]
Robert Mays
So I'm.
- [21:56]
Dan Kadar
I don't want to suggest that the Steelers care about legacy and name power and shit like that, but this is one of the NFL's pillar franchises, and Chris Shula is a name that people will be interviewing and want to talk to about this. And he has plenty of his own credentials. Like he stands on his own. Absolutely. He's done a wonderful job with the Rams defense. The Rams have done some really cool stuff. He also now has familiarity with Sean McVeigh, and I would think that would give him a leg up on the offensive staff that he could bring in with him. Bring in with him. It's a great point when, you know, I think Shula was linked to the Dolphins job last week, and I was like, man, do you really want to put that on him to, like, go Take the job that his grandfather had.
- [22:47]
Robert Mays
And it's all over the building.
- [22:49]
Dan Kadar
Yeah, I don't think you want that. But Don Shula's grandson coaching the Pittsburgh Steelers kind of has a ring to it, in my opinion. Like that just. That scratches my brain in a nice way. On top of. Again, I'll say it one more time. He's a very good established coach in his own right.
- [23:08]
Robert Mays
He'll be 40 next month. They've often hired young coaches. I think Bill Cower and Mike Tomlin were both in their mid-30s when they got those jobs. It gives you a ton of Runway. And so on that front, it does fall in line with what they've done in the past. But I'll be so curious who they ultimately seek out and what that says about what they're trying to put together. I think the Chris Shula ties to the McVeigh tree and that type of offensive coaching talent, I think that's actually a really good thing to bring up. It didn't matter for Staley. He kind of struck out on a lot of those guys and ultimately had to go outside of that to, to Joe Lombardi when he got that job and then for Raheem Morris. Obviously he picked the next guy up in Zach Robinson and it didn't seem to make enough of a difference to save him in Atlanta. But I do think the access to those guys. There is something to be said about that. When it comes to just drawbacks to hiring defensive minded head coaches, like getting the offensive coordinator right is a huge part of that. And if you feel like you've got some guys to pull from, if Nathan Shieldhouse comes with you and he's your offensive coordinator and he's the next guy up, what does that say and what does that do?
- [24:12]
Dan Kadar
I was going to say if you told me that Chris Shula is coming to coach my team and he's bringing Nathan Shieldhouse or Aubrey Pleasant with him and you're getting like an established piece of the Rams operation, I would be happy with that. I would be happy to take my chances that that can pay dividends. That that would get me pretty pumped, honestly.
- [24:35]
Robert Mays
It's going to be a fascinating process. And the same goes for the Ravens job and the same goes for the fact that we have nine head coaching openings right now.
- [24:45]
Dan Kadar
We have to. At least we have to point out the, the almost the entire AFC north turned over this year and Zach Taylor was the one that held on to his position.
- [24:59]
Robert Mays
Which is.
- [24:59]
Dan Kadar
I. I don't know if that's good or bad. It's just, it's just interesting. It's just interesting.
- [25:05]
Robert Mays
I think it says more about the Bengals than it does anything else.
- [25:08]
Dan Kadar
I think that's very fair.
- [25:11]
Robert Mays
Mike Tomlin out as the Pittsburgh Steelers head coach. Mike Tomlin and John Harbaugh in one off season. Felt like it was going to be one or the other. End up being both of them.
- [25:20]
Dan Kadar
It's going to be, I, I mean, we're gonna, we're gonna be doing another one of these. If I had to guess, not because somebody got fired, but the types of the, the jobs that are open and the situation that these teams are in, it's, yeah, it's going to be a fun couple of weeks until all of these vacancies get filled because this is fascinating stuff.
- [25:40]
Robert Mays
We're going to be breaking down the latest in the coaching cycle on tomorrow's show. And by tomorrow, I mean the podcast that comes out on Thursday, the show we record Wednesday into Thursday. That's going to be all about the latest in all the coaching news. And oh boy, do we have a lot to dig into considering what the last 24 hours have looked like. So be on the lookout for that. For now, that is all we've got. Appreciate you guys tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.
- [26:18]
Adrian Wojnarowski
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