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- [00:00]
Robert Mays
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- [00:33]
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- [01:18]
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- [01:40]
Robert Mays
Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today we're chatting about the position groups around the NFL that just were made over this offseason, the groups that have changed the most and how that might mean we should recalibrate our expectations for those groups specifically and the units that they play for. This is a good thing to do every off season because we have these kind of lingering understandings of what certain position groups feel like and when they're totally remade in a single off season, we should change our overall expectations for what that unit can be. We talk about at the beginning of the show, but the Bears offensive line from last year I think is a really good example. We started this show with like three or four different offensive lines that might have that different sort of feel. So really enjoyed this conversation with Dave and Derek. Let's get to it right now. Every off season, there are certain position groups around the league that just feel completely different than they did the year before. And I think it's important for us to clock those as we move through the off season, because it can and should, in a lot of situations, change the way we talk and think about a team. An example from last year, like the Bears offensive line, right? Like the Bears offensive line was completely remade last year, and it helped in part remake what the Bears were. And there are a lot of offensive lines we're going to talk about today, but I wanted to take some time, Derek, today, just to kind of take a step back and think about some of the position groups that look entirely different than they did a year ago, whether it's guys coming back from injury, draft picks, free agent signings, and just sit with them a little bit as we kind of revamp what our expectations might be for those unit, for those individual position groups and. And the units that they're a part of.
- [03:30]
Derek
And I actually prefer this framing over who are the most improved units because I think that that one's an easier one where it's just like, I don't know, some team traded for one superstar, and obviously they're going to be better. Some of these are just like, they're swapping out four of your five starters, and I don't know if that makes them better, but it makes them a hell of a lot different. And maybe it's a stylistic thing or maybe we've just never seen this combination of players or whatever it's going to be like. I think this framing opens up to, like, I don't know if this is better. It might just be a different color of the same thing.
- [03:58]
Robert Mays
Why I like doing this is that we have just certain ideas of, like, what position groups are even like. The other day, Derek, on the mailbag, when we were talking about the Giants offensive line, and we kind of had to remind ourselves, like, the Giants offensive line feels different now than it's felt over the last couple of years, because in your mind, you have that week one Giants game from like three years ago just seared into your brain. And so I think it's important to just reconsider what they are because sometimes we have these lasting images of what these groups can feel like. And for a lot of these, that's just no longer going to be the case. The component parts are completely different.
- [04:32]
Eric
And I really enjoy how many of these are a little bit sneaky because there are bound to be. And we're going to hit on them. But there are teams who do something, they either do a lot or they do something really big. And so it registers with you immediately, oh, Dexter Lawrence is in Cincinnati. Now everybody knows that and everybody understands that it's going to have some ripple effects. But there are at least a few on here that I think challenge your perception where once you dig into it and remind yourself how their off season has gone, you're like, oh yeah, that looks a hell of a lot different. Even if it didn't register with me as it was happening.
- [05:04]
Robert Mays
So let's start with one that made a bit of news today. The Chargers signed David and Joku one year up to $8 million. And it's not just the Chargers tight end room. Derek what the way that I wanted to frame this is the Chargers like inline operation like the in the formation players for the Chargers this year are just going to be extremely different. The two inline tight ends, like the non pass catching options, you have Charlie Kohler and David Njoku there and all three interior offensive linemen are going to be swapped out. And we're not leaning all the way into this part of the conversation, but some of these will include the fact that if guys were hurt last year, then our image of those position groups are colored by the fact that those guys weren't playing. And for the Chargers, both of those tackles were hurt for a huge chunk of the year. And so even if those guys, Joe Walton, Richard Slater were on the roster last year the entire again in, into the formation in line group of players for the Chargers, this year is going to be very, very different than it was a season ago.
- [06:04]
Derek
I kind of want to start with the guard play because I feel like obviously the tackle play last year for them, obviously a bunch of guys are getting hurt. But the guards were, they were not very good obviously. And I knew you know, they were obviously taking risks with the Becton signing and stuff like that. But part of it is like yeah, those guys were used to playing next to all star tackle play and missed some of the, missed those guys for a lot of the year. And then the center play in Los Angeles was just not very good. And so the guys that those mid tier, you know, lower replacement level guard players were flanked by were also not helping them a ton. And so now you have your, your star tackles back and then signing Tyler Biotish who is again, I don't know if he's one of those like superstar centers, but he's a far, far more stable guy than they had had at that Spot, really probably for the entirety time of that Justin Herbert has been there and then you bring in this
- [06:50]
Robert Mays
is unnecessary Corey Lindsley erasure that I'm not okay.
- [06:53]
Derek
Lindsley was good in the beginning. It's been a while, though. It's been a while.
- [06:56]
Eric
That feels like a. So long ago.
- [06:58]
Derek
Yeah. That. That feels like a different era of Justin Herbert. Chargers.
- [07:03]
Robert Mays
Yeah, the Bozeman thing. Swapping out Boseman for Biotish is. Even if it's just one position, I think it's important to remind ourselves how much of an upgrade that's going to be. Even like if Ty Biat isn't a superstar level player, like the moment they got him almost immediately after Washington released him. That's a mo. Like that's a moment from the Chargers offseason. I think you can get really excited about. The question is going to be what happens at those two guard spots and what that ends up looking like. I mean, the idea that you're bringing over Cole Strange from the Dolphins is one of those spots. Obviously, Mike McDaniel knows a lot about Cole Strange, but the fact that you're taking a college center and likely moving him to guard, there's just so many different considerations with what that interior is going to look like and some of the lingering questions that we're going to have until we actually see it in practice.
- [07:52]
Eric
It is funny because there's a. There's a unit we're going to talk about later in the show where a college guard might be playing center, and I feel really great about that. But asking a college center to play guard is. It's not as common and it's not as normal. And we talk about how specific the skill set is for center, and you can get away with being a little bit less of an athlete. Centers are a little bit smaller. Jake Slaughter doesn't really fit that description, but it's. It's interesting enough and unique enough. I. I brought it up a couple weeks ago. It's just something that makes you wonder how it's going to work. But looking at this in totality and especially I really wanted to talk about this after David and Joku signed on Monday because the Chargers, all of a sudden, this is one of the sneaky teams for me. It reminds me of moving into my house where the. Our couch and our coffee table were the only thing that we really liked enough to bring with us. And you get there and you're like, all right, this, this looks empty and, and not very accommodating or hospitable. Like what are we going to do here? And you kind of have to take a step back and be like, all right, Facebook Marketplace is going to have some good deals. My sister in law's got a chair that we can have. And over enough months you're like, look, look how this came together. Look how much better this looks without having to invest that much. And that's, that's really how I feel about the Chargers. I mean, Biotish and Charlie Kohler were two exciting or, excuse me, two signings that I was really excited about. You bring in after a couple months. I don't love any one thing on the offensive line in particular, but between Cole Strange and then obviously Jake Slaughter, but the two, the two day three guards that they drafted as well, I'm like, all right, we can address this through sheer numbers. Hopefully you get Alec Engold to come with Mike McDaniel for Miami so you can do your goofy fullback stuff. But between Alec Ingold and now the tight end room, that's going to be wild. By the way, the dolphins ran 21 or 22 personnel 35% of the time last year, so you're going to have a lot of options to do stuff like that. And of course a Mike McDaniel offense is going to add plenty of speed between Keaton Mitchell and Brennan Thompson too. I know I went further than the inline options, but it's important to think
- [09:57]
Robert Mays
about just like what the offense is going to feel like overall. I'm curious, Derek, are you buying this? Like, are you buying these changes in totality? Is this enough for you to be excited about what the Chargers offense can look like, considering Mike McDaniel is going to be in charge of pushing the buttons with this thing.
- [10:14]
Derek
I think because it's Mike McDaniel. Yes. And I do feel like they picked a lot of the right, like skill sets. Like, Strange is a good mover and Slaughter, Slaughter, I think is actually a really good athlete for the center position. He's just kind of like Dave said, he's a very bizarre center body. He's a bigger guy, he's longer, he's like thicker in the lower body, which is that just kind of a weird center body type. So I kind of get why they're moving him at guard and I could actually see him being like a good second and third level mover in like more of a zone based scheme there. And then obviously Biotish, I think can tie it all together, so. And then bringing in Joku, who is not the athlete that he was maybe four or five years ago, but it's still a good movable piece. Like Kohler is a good blocker. Ingold is a, is a far more athletic fullback than they had previously with Scott Matlock.
- [10:57]
Robert Mays
That's very, very different types of players.
- [10:59]
Derek
Very different kind of full. It's funny like both of the, it's
- [11:02]
Robert Mays
the Ravens going from Kyle Juszczyk to Patrick Ricardo.
- [11:06]
Derek
It's. Yes, it's the opposite that. Well, it's funny too because it's the Greg Roman like 21, 22 personnel offense is like one thing. And then Mike McDaniel is going to use a lot of the same personnel technically, like in terms of like what the numbers are. But it's just going to look and feel so much different. And so I'm excited about that. I think the other small part of it I'm buying with the Slaughter pick, it insulates them pretty well. If Biotish does get hurt now, he's a guy who like, does not really get hurt.
- [11:31]
GNC Advertiser
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- [11:31]
Derek
He's been an ironman for pretty much the entirety of time that he's been in the league in terms of like not missing a ton of games. But if, if he does, you at least have a good backup plan here. Like, okay, this guy played center in college. We're not going to be dead in the water the way that we felt like we were last year at that position.
- [11:47]
Eric
I don't even want to get too far ahead of myself and say I think the Chargers offense is going to be an elite sort of unit. I just think they have the potential to be so interesting. Like the, the stuff that they have available to them between the bodies and the size. I mean they've got, they now have the personnel with like Kohler and being a team that's probably going to use a fullback, Barri often we didn't get to see the best of Amari and Hampton last year. And so I think they have the personnel to lean into that if the offensive line is relatively healthy. And they could be a very smash mouth team. But they also have so many guys with juice. I mean they drafted the fastest receiver in the draft. And even if Brennan Thompson's not a volume guy, like, he's there for a reason. Keaton Mitchell is there for a reason. Lad McConkey is not a slow guy. Like, and then. And they've got field stretchers like Quentin Johnson and Trey Harris. Like, this is, this is a team that seems like it could be very amorphous and, and change its approach widely based on what they want to do and who they're game planning against. And I just think it could be very, very fun to watch.
- [12:53]
Robert Mays
Yeah, this is one of those units that again, you have a certain understanding of what you think the Chargers offensive line is based on last year. And I just think for a bunch of different reasons, it's going to feel much, much different this year than it did a year ago. So let's stick with some offensive lines. The Browns offensive line is entirely remade. Like we've got essentially five new starters for the Browns offensive line. Spencer Fano, left tackle, Zion Johnson at left guard. Speaking of the Chargers, Elton Jenkins at center, Tevin Jenkins penciled in as the right guard right now, and then Titus Howard back at right tackle. For reference, last year we had Cam Robinson play the majority of snaps at left tackle. Joe Batonio played the whole season at left guard, but he was the only one. Ethan Pochic was hurt for half the year at center. Wyatt Teller missed a handful of games and then Katie Levison played the majority of the snaps at right tackle. Because even if Joel Jack Conklin's been on that team for the last several years, it's been a while since we saw a high volume Jack Conklin. So you're really looking at five new guys for the Charger for the Browns offensive line next year. Derek this is one of those units that I hope it's better, you hope it ends up being better. But the fact that it's five new guys, obviously it's going to have a much, much different feel in Cleveland where
- [14:04]
Derek
I'm trying to wrap my head around it is like the tackles almost have to be better, right? Like you draft the first round pick there and then Fano's really talented. I know he's moving from right back to left, but like I think he's talented enough to handle it. And then you bring in Titus Howard who has been pretty good at tackle, pretty decent at tackle for a lot of the time that he's been there. So that should be better. But I think the guards are also taking a step back. Like you're going to Tevin Jenkins, who has not been a long time starter in a couple of years now. Zion Johnson I think was pretty shaky and just got moved off of the offensive line that we were just talking about with the Chargers who needed a little bit of interior help. So I this is the unit where like you said it should be better, but I kind of just throw my hands up with this one. Like I this is a unit where there's so many different moving pieces and so many players that outside of how excited I am for the tackles, I just don't really know what to make of the interior. Like. Like this is a unit where the vacillations could go, could go anywhere almost.
- [14:57]
Robert Mays
I'd also mentioned they drafted Austin Barber in the third round. Is he somebody that could potentially be in the mix at guard? That's just one thing to mention, I think. I feel we'll see what happens at the right guard spot. The Zion Johnson part of this is interesting because I think the argument for why Zion Johnson is worth paying what the Browns paid him in free agency this year, obviously you have the second contract thing where you're hoping his best football is in front of him, but I do think he played better down the stretch than he did for the majority of last season. And like you mentioned, Derek, the play on either side of him last year was a mess for most of the season. And so if you can make an argument that by playing next to sponsor Fano, even if he's a rookie and Elton Jenkins has a just solid piece and then you get the version of Zion Johnson we saw over the last four or five weeks last year, is that something where, again, his best football is in front of him and that spot looks a little bit better midway through this season than your opinion of Zion Johnson from the first four years of his career might lead you to believe? The center one is to me, one of the more interesting ones because even if Elton Jenkins is a name that we know and are used to, he didn't, hasn't played a ton of center in the NFL and he got hurt for a majority of last year. So that's one where even if he's been around for a very long time, I still think there's a little bit of guesswork in terms of how well that part of it specifically is going to work out.
- [16:17]
Derek
Yeah, 100 and I, I feel like when they moved him to center in Green Bay, he was not happy about it.
- [16:22]
Eric
Like it was.
- [16:22]
Robert Mays
I don't think he looked very comfortable at it.
- [16:24]
Derek
No. And so that, that's, that was why when they signed him, I was like, they're really signing him to play center or like he agreed to be center. Maybe he's more comfortable with it now than he was and he's, he's totally okay with doing that. Or maybe teams were more uncomfortable moving him back to guard after having not seen it. I don't know. But how this interior shakes out, I think I do just have a lot of questions. Titus Howard to Me is like really have to think about it. He's going to be solid. And then again I like Fano, but the interior, I just. This feels like this could be a totally average solid middle of the pack interior. But I feel like if a lot of these guys play towards their lower level, like it could be one of the worst in the league. If again Jenkins gets banged up and like maybe Austin Barber doesn't look very good in relief duty, maybe Elton Jenkins doesn't really play up to what his potential level could be. Maybe Zion Johnson defaults back to what he had been for the first four years of his career. Like it, it does feel like the bottom is pretty low for this. Even if the ceiling is, is pretty solid.
- [17:18]
Eric
What would, what would be success for this group is what I come come to where like you had to remake this entire thing. And for me I think it like Spencer Fano and Zion Johnson are the two for me that stand out. Spencer Fano because he's a top 10 pick. Zion Johnson, I believe they gave him five years, right? Or was it four? You can't get out of it for at least two or three years.
- [17:39]
Robert Mays
It's a healthy contract. I mean it's three years 50 million.
- [17:42]
Eric
Oh, it's only a three year deal.
- [17:44]
Robert Mays
Johnson. But it is, there's 33 of that is guaranteed. So I think it's two full years of that guaranteed.
- [17:49]
Eric
You can't like it's, it's a hard deal to get out from even though it's a shorter deal. So those are the two that stand out to me. I mean I, I know Titus Howard got a sizable amount of money as well, but that's a tackle salary. And I also, I think I feel better about him as a player. And Elton Jenkins was what, two years, I believe.
- [18:05]
Robert Mays
And so yeah, Elton Jenkins was two years at 12 million. Titus Howard was two years 45 million with 35 of that guaranteed for Titus Howard. The void years on the end. All these are wild. I mean it's how the Browns operate these days. But there's a ton of them on each one of these contracts.
- [18:20]
Eric
If Spencer Fano is a hit and at least one of these deals just isn't a disaster, that feels like a good starting point for me. Like I said, like, I feel confident about the Titus Howard deal. Even if he's not a top tier offensive tackle. I just, I would guess that's not going to completely submarine what you're trying to do here over the next two or three years.
- [18:41]
Robert Mays
What do you think is a realistic expectation Derek, like, is middle of the pack. Like, if they're the 17th best offensive line in the league, do you think that's a reasonable expectation?
- [18:49]
Derek
That to me feels like a 90th percentile type of outcome.
- [18:53]
Robert Mays
That's fair.
- [18:54]
Derek
And so I think it's probably more realistic that they're like 22, where it's not completely sinking the team, but it doesn't really feel like a strength for them. And, you know, maybe the young players are still up and down or Zion Johnson's a little bit volatile, like 20, the 22 range, where it's not, oh my God, nuclear bad. But I'm not sure this is helping us. Every week is kind of where I fall.
- [19:16]
Robert Mays
My the one curiosity I have is that obviously with Jenkins and Howard, we've seen them play a bunch of different positions. I mean, Titus Howard played both guard spots, mostly left guard, for the Texans last year, but I think he had one game at right guard. I think he spent the first half of the season a tackle last year and then moved to guard for the back half of the season. And so, I mean, he can play multiple positions. We know Elton Jenkins play can play multiple positions. If a couple of these draft picks are potentially in the mix more than we think they might be, is it a situation where Jenkins plays guard and Parker Brailsford plays center? Like, the fact that you do have some flexibility with those guys, I think just adds another layer of interest to me because are these pieces more movable than we're treating them right now?
- [19:57]
Derek
That might be their ideal outcome. If Parker Brailsford, I don't know enough about him. We'd have to go ask Dane if he can somehow be, like, viable enough that he takes the center spot and then the right guard spot can be Jenkins, where again, I think he's more comfortable at guard, this probably feels pie in the sky, but like they could that that probably is the ideal outcome.
- [20:15]
Eric
Well, the stakes just also aren't that high for the Browns right now. We know what this year is for Cleveland, and that's not to say you're going to bench starters that are making a lot of money for no reason, but if you need to shuffle for some reason because somebody's struggling or somebody inevitably gets hurt, that's damn near a guarantee. With an offensive line, it's nice to know that you've got a few young, interesting pieces that you can plug in there. And if this year is just a lot about finding a five that you feel good about, that's going to be there for at least A few years. Yeah, I'm, I'm way on board with that.
- [20:46]
Robert Mays
Another unit, the team that lost Titus Howard and gained Wyatt Teller is the Texans, who also are going to have a very new look offensive line this year.
- [20:54]
Eric
I was going to bring them up because that's the differences. The Texans were in a similar situation last year and it was like, no, but you have expectations, like, you're a playoff caliber team. You've got a defense that could almost get you to the Super Bowl. This is not the time to say, well, I hope we have a best five at some point during the season. So. And, and it's so great that the Texans decided not to do that again this year. I'm, I'm really happy that the Texans threw some resources at the problem this time around.
- [21:25]
Robert Mays
Right now I'm, I'm curious how many new starters we'll see on the Texans offensive line. I think. And that question comes down to whether Keelan Rutledge ends up playing center for them early. And right now he's penciled in to do that. Based on. I talked to people there right after the draft. I was like, do you think he can play center quickly? And I think they believe he can from a mental standpoint. I don't know if that's like the day one plan. So I wonder if he actually starts at guard and starts as depth for Wyatt Teller, who's been consistently banged up. And we see Jake Andrews in there again to start the season. Obviously the more exciting outcome here is that Rutledge plays from day one at center and you have a completely remade offensive line. I just don't know how quickly that happens.
- [22:06]
Eric
I do think it's important to pump the brakes a little bit with Keelan Rutledge and I. I've been a cheerleader of his since he got drafted. It's hard not to fall in love with his approach and his all about ball style. He. He had another clip over rookie minicamp weekend where he was like, yeah, I don't, I don't own a pair of slacks. I wore jeans to my wedding. And I was like, this guy's going to be a Hall of. This guy's incredible. That's not actually how it works. Like, just because he's a very fun down to business prospect doesn't mean it's going to be that simple. So I think that's worth pointing out that he did. I mean, I mentioned it that Keelan Rutledge is who I was talking about with Jake Slaughter. Jake Slaughter practiced at center.
- [22:45]
Derek
He did.
- [22:45]
Eric
He did it at the Senior Bowl. He was a right guard for his last two years at Georgia Tech. He hasn't done this a lot at the NFL level. I think it's at worst, it's at least worth saying, let's see how this goes. Let's not just assume this guy's a rookie Pro Bowler at center.
- [23:01]
Robert Mays
How much better do you think the Texans offensive line is right now than it was at the end of last season, Eric? So
- [23:09]
Derek
that one's kind of tricky to. To figure out. I think Smith. I think they are better. I think they are obviously better. I would say like, oh man, am
- [23:21]
Eric
I drinking the Kool Aid if I don't like. I don't think this is a hard question to answer. They're definitely better. I don't know if it's a little better.
- [23:28]
Derek
I'm trying to say, are they like, can they get into like the top 10 of offensive line? Because I think when you make as many additions as they do, that is rich. That's what I'm saying. But like, I think where this actually gets complicated for me is not necessarily the additions they've made because I like the additions. Like, I still think Wyatt Teller has good ball in him. Braden Smith, if he's healthy, he can play. I really like Rutledge as a prospect. I'm curious to see how much better Ariante Ursary gets. Yeah, because I think he was quietly solid last year as a tackle, but because the overall offensive line health was still pretty middling in Houston. And then there were just so many other bigger name tackles that were kind of overlooking him in that class. Like Armand Menboo, Kelvin Banks. Will Campbell was a big name that people were talking about. Like, it just. Nobody really gave a shit that Ariante Ursary was playing like pretty solid ball. And so I'm curious to see how he develops. I think my thing with this offensive line, it's just so clearly an attitude move. Like Rutledge. Rutledge and Teller just want to put two hands in your chest and drive you into the dirt. And then Braden Smith himself is a guy who can really move people. And so I'm just. For a team that tried to get so heavy and like more downhill, more duo, more like gap style runs last year. I'm excited that they went out and got like all the exact body types that you would want to do that.
- [24:40]
Robert Mays
I think it's a 100% an attitude thing. I feel like this is a. How can we make our offense feel a little bit more like our defense. And can that manifest on the offensive line specifically? I think that's absolutely what it is. My fear is if Wyatt Teller gets banged up, which he's done consistently over the last few years, if he misses half the season and you're moving Rutledge in there as you're starting left guard now, how much better is it than last year's group, really? You have a rookie playing where you had Titus Howard playing. It's all going to come down to how much better Ursary is and then how much of an upgrade Braden Smith is over that Trent Brown like Blake Fisher combination at right tackle. And that probably is an upgrade. It absolutely is. But if. If. If Teller gets hurt and then you're maybe not upgrading two different spots at left guard and center compared to what you had last year, how much better is it actually going to look? I. I guess that's my fear.
- [25:31]
Eric
That's health for Braden Smith and Wyatt Teller is certainly worth bringing up and
- [25:36]
Robert Mays
that I didn't even mention Braden Smith's out, but that's abs absolutely something that's
- [25:39]
Eric
worth mentioning if their health. So I like this so much and Trent Brown becoming your swing tackle in a. In a perfect world, obviously. But if Ursary is playing well enough to keep that job and hopefully better and Braden Smith is healthy, having Trent Brown as your swing tackle is a very nice place to be. And that's one thing I noticed when I was looking at this, where I was like, man, Trent Brown as OT3, he's gotta be one of the better swing tackles if. If that's where he winds up, right? Like, if he plays a significant chunk of the season as your swing tackle,
- [26:11]
Robert Mays
I don't know how. How great I would feel about that. He's 33 like he played last year, but it had been a while since he was like a consistent contributor to a team. He started seven games last year. I don't.
- [26:23]
Eric
Having a guy with that many snaps and that many starts as your third tackle is not. There are teams that have them, but it's not something you can bank on in the NFL. Like t. Like tackle play is extremely good. Tackle play is extremely hard to come by, I think.
- [26:38]
Robert Mays
I think you're ascribing more certainty and safety to that than I probably would be. That's what I would say.
- [26:46]
Eric
It's still better than asking him to start because that's the state of your offensive line, which was the case last year.
- [26:52]
Robert Mays
Well, last year it was asking him to play because Blake Fisher couldn't. Right.
- [26:54]
Derek
It's better than going into the year and being like, our young player sucks. I if he has to play three or four games, it's probably fine. But I do lean on the side of like somebody that big once they start to get a little bit older, like the cliff could just you snap a finger and they're just like, don't have it anymore.
- [27:10]
Robert Mays
That's kind of where I'm at too with it. But again, I think overall, the overall depth, the amount that they've invested in it, you there is a reason to believe that this will be better than it was last year and that this unit will feel and this unit and the offense will feel much different. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and chat about the last offensive line that we're going to hit.
- [27:29]
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- [31:39]
Robert Mays
the Arizona Cardinals also are going to have several new offensive linemen this year. Really 3. Last year Paris Johnson only played 12 games, which I think is worth mentioning. So he missed five games last year. He'll obviously be back at left tackle. They signed Isaac Salamalo at guard. They still have Yelta Fro hold at center, but then Chase Basantis is going to be playing right guard presumably and then Elijah Wilkinson is probably be playing right tackle for them. Wilkinson had to play last year. He's been somebody that's bounced around. It's like a swing tackle for a very long time. But at the very least we're going to have three new starters for this Cardinals offensive line, Derek, and then we're going to have Paris Johnson hopefully for more than 12 games. So overall Arizona is going to feel different upfront than they have really over the last couple of seasons, especially at guard.
- [32:20]
Derek
I'm really again this kind of goes back to an attitude thing where I think SEO Malu is a guy who can move people and part of what the the big thing with Basantis was like he I think is a fine mover at the second level and stuff like that and he can find his moving targets and all that. But his big thing was just like I think his hand technique and his lower body power when he is really getting into people was just it was really, really striking. And so I think for them trying to get that style of attitude along the interior and then having a center who you can actually move so you can do a lot of these like guard down blocks, the nose and then for a hole can get out into space like being able to do a lot of that stuff, which they did relatively well in 2024. Obviously in 20 we were excited about that. And then 2025, it kind of all fell apart. And so I'm excited for where they're going with this. Wilkinson is not the like sexiest signing in the world, but he played like serviceably well for Atlanta last year. Like he perfectly fine plug and play starter.
- [33:12]
Robert Mays
So he was a perfectly fine plug and play starter last year. That's my problem with this, is that he I was really impressed with him last year, especially early in the season, because I was terrified about what that was going to look like for Atlanta. You're down to your offense, your third right tackle essentially before the season even starts. How's that going to go? And I thought he acquitted himself very well, but we're talking about a guy who right now is 31 years old. He's been in the league since 2017 and he's been a back half of the roster guy for a good chunk of that. And so walking into the season with him as your day one starter at right tackle, it was part of my frustration with the process for the Cardinals in the first round of the draft just because I think those guys are hard to find. But overall I think that you have to admit that they are in much better shape, especially on the interior, than they have been in a very long time there. I'm fully willing to admit that this
- [34:08]
Eric
whole show is about like mental images and like breaking yourself of those memories. And you're right, considering what happened to the Cardinals and the injury or excuse me, the Falcons and the injuries they had to deal with. Elijah Wilkinson did play serviceably, but I just feel like I have horror memories of the Rams game, which ironically the Falcons wound up winning. Remember that crazy Monday nighter at the end of the year? But it was a rough night for Elijah Wilkinson and that's like burned into my brain. I think it's fair to point out over to overall he played better last year than what my memory is telling me from that one game. I do agree with you because I when you draft Jeremiah Love and when you could have potentially had a Fano or a Francis Maui Noah, I think that's what I wanted the Cardinals to do. But across the entirety of the offensive line, if Elijah Wilkinson is your right tackle for the time being, this is serviceable. I I'm not going to back off the fact that I think there are things you could have done rather than take a running back at this point in your roster build. Even if you Know, even if you don't get the price that you want, I think you could have traded back and felt better about adding a pick and, and still taking an offensive lineman and then you'd feel really good about this. But I do think it's very fair to say for where the Cardinals are and for how we view them. I think overall this offensive line is better than it would get credit for on the outside.
- [35:32]
Robert Mays
I think overall the offense period is in pretty good shape. My problem, and I think that there were so many different conversations happening with the Jeremiah Love thing in the top five. And I actually do think for 2026, specifically the Cardinals and that supporting cast is actually set up okay. And the, the right tackle being the biggest question. My bigger question is what's it going to look like two years from now, you know, with the term considerations and how you've put this thing together and two years from. And because now next year you're likely going to be using a first round pick on a quarterback next year, so you're probably not going to be using that first round pick on a tackle. So where is that tackle going to come from? So in the short term, when you look at the upgrades to the offensive line and just how exciting the pass catchers are overall, like there is a world where this does come together as a pretty good supporting cast. I think that's a different conversation than was this the best use of your resources on a multi year level as you think about the long term future of how you're building the team?
- [36:30]
Derek
I think I probably agree with that aspect of it in terms of potentially trading down and like you just take whatever price you can get. But I, in my mind if they did that, they almost certainly should have just taken a defensive player like, because I think their front was so like, you know, dearth of talent. And so I think either way they probably weren't going to have their tackle right now. I think the other thing that I at least enjoy about the Wilkinson signing is like they are paying him peanuts. Like he's there for free basically. And so if he's.
- [36:55]
Robert Mays
But that cuts both ways, right?
- [36:57]
Derek
No, I exactly. But like if he's, if, if both of the guard spots are significantly better or at least like some degree of better, let's say 20% better than they were last year because I think they struggled at that spot and the right tackle spot is not really any worse than what they got out of like Jonah Williams at certain stretches.
- [37:13]
Robert Mays
It was mostly, I think, hello, beach him last year and Beecham.
- [37:15]
Derek
Yeah, yeah. And Beecham had been a problem for them for like three years. And so if he's at least like a hair better than that and they're paying him nothing, I think that's fine given how much better the guards are.
- [37:27]
Robert Mays
And I actually do think that's it for this exercise specifically. That's the right way to think about it. Where the right tackle play, even if you have questions about Elijah Wilkinson, may not be worse this year than it was last year. And so again, let's separate these things. It. Was this the best way to build the offensive line on the offense overall this offseason? Maybe not. Are the Cardinals set up way better potentially this year than they were last year and the year before that also, I think can be, yes. And so that's kind of where with this the Salama thing is just like again in 2026, they're going to be better. This is his age 33 season. So like that being the move they made in free agency, is he still going to be playing at that level two years or a year from now? When you bring in a rookie quarterback like that to me is like again, the multi year element of this. And how much better are they in the short term? Those are two different conversations because I think they're absolutely better in the short term. Whether this was the best approach on a multi year level, that's. I think that's my, the question that I sit with. The other one I'd throw out, I mean, we're talking about the Cardinals. The defensive line is also going to look a lot different just based on who they lost and who they brought in. Tomlinson and Calais Campbell Both got like 500 snaps last year. And Roy, they brought back Roy Lopez on the interior this year. And so just the interior of the Cardinals defensive line, with losing Tomlinson and Campbell bringing back Roy Lopez and then Walter Nolan being hurt, there's going to be a very different feel to certain elements of the Cardinals defense too. In part because of how banged up they were last year.
- [38:57]
Eric
Cardinals are a quarterback away from being a team that I could get pretty excited about in totality. And by pretty excited, I just mean scrappy. I'm intrigued by the scrappiness, but the, the quarterback thing is, it's just, it's a year away.
- [39:13]
Robert Mays
I'm still in wait and see mode. I think there are enough questions about the offensive line and certain elements of the defense. And again, like at a multi year level, who's going to be rushing the passer for them next year? When Xavin Collins and Baron Browning and all those guys are gone. Like it's.
- [39:26]
Derek
I mean even those guys barely do that.
- [39:29]
Eric
Intrigued by and I think they're going to be a good team are completely different things. I'm my bar for being intrigued by a team is just very high, clearly.
- [39:38]
Robert Mays
Speaking of defensive lines, the Bengals defensive line is also a group that has been completely remade this off season. Dexter Lawrence, Jonathan Allen, Boy Mafe, Cassius Howell, all in there, all likely to pay, play pretty big roles. Considering what the investments looked like. This is one that is very much at the core of the exercise where like the Bengals defensive line and the bodies on the defensive line. Derek, we have to rethink what our expectations should be for what the Bengals are up front. If it doesn't feel drastically different this year than it felt last year, this team is in really big trouble.
- [40:14]
Derek
They are in massive trouble, dude. And so here's, here's. Actually speaking of that, here's where I got with this. At first I was like, well, they traded for Dexter Lawrence. Mafe is really fun. They. They draft cash as hell. Like, okay, we're going, we're going, we're going. And then I look at Dexter Lawrence in the middle of a front that has a lot of now like race car type of pass rushers and linebackers behind them that we are not certain can play like the Bengals. And it feels a lot like the job. Like outside of Jonathan Allen, who I do think is a better defensive tackle than any of the other ancillary pieces that the Giants had, outside of that, it feels very, very much like the Giant situation. And even then, like, I think there's reason to be excited about like the, the Mafe signing and stuff like that. Those guys are not Brian Burns and Abdul Carter. And so it's just even that it starts to. The more I looked at it, the more I was like, I'm actually not certain how much better this is going to be. Even if I was really excited when they obviously made the trade for Dexter Lawrence.
- [41:07]
Robert Mays
Can I spin it for you in a positive way? Can I try to talk you into
- [41:10]
Derek
why I still want to be. I still want this to be good. I still want to buy it.
- [41:15]
Robert Mays
Couple things. BJ Hill is like a serviceable NFL player. Like when BJ Hill was the best player on your defensive line, which at times it did feel like he was when Trey Hendrickson was hurt last year. That's not a place you want to be. If he's the sixth best player on your defensive line, you might be. You're in a much better position. And right now, if things break right, that might be the case. And so I do think that when you bring back some of the guys from last year, there are starters that become depth pieces and maybe you can get a little bit more excited about that. And then the body types on the edge, like the fact that you still have Miles Murphy, Shemar Stewart, you still have those bigger body defensive ends to kind of pair with. And Mafe's not a small guy, but Mafe's got some juice. Cassius Howell has some juice. I do think that the collection of bodies and the potential waves you could throw at teams if you see maybe a smaller step forward for Miles Murphy, even though I thought he played better last year. And then she. Mark Turner or smart shmar Turner. Shemar Stewart does get better in year two. I do think the combination of all of it does leave you with the potential for this to feel much, much different and come together in a way that actually does make sense.
- [42:24]
Derek
That's a good point. Like the body types thing, because the Giants didn't really have that like, like a lot of the Giants guys are smaller and not really like super stout edge setters. I mean, Brian Burns is a good run defender, but in a kind of different way. And then the depth, again, like the Giants defensive tackle depth was just not very good outside of Dexter Lawrence. Yeah, it was zero. And so the fact that the Bengals do have three, four guys potentially deep that are not maybe not the sexiest players, but like BJ Hill can get into the backfield and do some stuff. So you've brought me back around from doomerism a little bit. I think when I was just looking at the starting like pass rush unit, I was like, man, this feels just a lot like the Giants. But I do think that that's a good argument with the depth and the body types.
- [43:03]
Eric
Well, I think there's a key difference too, and it's what gets me on board with this is I'm not asking the Bengals defense to actually be good. They just have to be something that can get in the way on occasion, which they so many times were not. Like the Giants did not have an offense like this. The Giants could not reasonably expect their offense to score 28 to 34 points a week. The Bengals can so it like, I'm not. I. I don't need that big of a leap. I just need you to be. I do think for what they spent on Dexter Lawrence, I always joke, I just need you to be regular bad. I need the Bengals to be a little better than regular bad.
- [43:42]
Robert Mays
So here.
- [43:43]
Eric
But not. They don't need to be great.
- [43:44]
Robert Mays
Here's my, here's my pushback to that. But if, if to be regular. If the Bengals defense is regular bad, what do you think the actual expectations are for the 2026 Bengals? What do you think you can accomplish if the defense is only regular bad?
- [43:59]
Eric
Win the division?
- [44:02]
Derek
I don't know. I, I, that feels like, to me,
- [44:06]
Robert Mays
I think, and I, the reason that I'm like, kind of pushing on this a little bit is that I, this is something I've often said where it's like, all right, if the offense is top five and the defense can get to regular bad, is that enough for you to be like, a real player? And I wonder if we're at a place now where that's just not good enough with, like, how good the defenses are on the best teams in the league and how consistently good those defenses have been over the last four or five years. Are we at a place where, if your defense is still just regular bad? Are you serious?
- [44:36]
Eric
I think that's a valid point. And I'm just, and I probably should be for what they've spent and wanting to keep a franchise quarterback of Joe Burrow's caliber happy. I'm not all the way. I'm like, I'm not, I'm not thinking or talking about the Bengals as being a Super bowl contender. I think that stuff needs to be there for you to contend to win the Super Bowl. But we talked about this on a show recently. Let's get the Bengals back to a place of respectability before we worry about that. And I do think with a mediocre ish, bad ish defense, I mean, this team could win the AFC North. I, I and, and obviously Joe Burrow's got to stay healthy. That's been a big problem as well.
- [45:15]
Robert Mays
I think it's two separate questions. With a mediocre to bad defense, could they win the na. Could they win the AFC North? And does this defense have a chance to be better than mediocre to bad?
- [45:24]
Eric
Sure.
- [45:24]
Robert Mays
I, I, I kind of wonder if they do because on top of the defensive line stuff, Brian Cook at safety and like a human being that can tackle people on the second and third level of the Bengals defense is a really nice change of pace for me. On the third level, yes, the linebackers would still make me wake up in a cold sweat, but I thought the corners played pretty well last year. I thought D.J. turner was great. Like, is there a world where the remade Bengals defensive front can actually turn the Bengals into like the 12th best defense in the league. I'm not totally ruling that out as a real possibility.
- [45:58]
Eric
It's an optimistic viewpoint, but it's not completely insane to think that Dexter Lawrence could be that guy, the guy that we remember from a couple years ago who's a defensive player of the year candidate before he gets hurt and a. If Dexter Lawrence is that guy, all bets are off. Because I just think it makes life that much easier on the rest of your front. If boy Mafe plays like he's worth that contract I love. I wound up loving this landing spot for Jonathan Allen because before Dexter Lawrence gets there, you're like, ah, like he's still a good player. But is he the Jonathan Allen that you remember from Washington? I would argue no. But if Dexter Lawrence is playing next to him for as many snaps as I would guess, I think it's going to let him do what he still does best, which is just penetrate and cause havoc in the backfield. So I, I think this is the type of situation that could extend Jonathan Allen's good years. And so, yeah, if, if, if Shemar Stewart takes another step forward, if Miles Murphy keeps playing well, if Cash's Howell gives you something, I mean, we just listed like six guys. Again, it's an optimistic viewpoint, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that this is a really, really impressive front.
- [47:09]
Derek
So the Panthers last year were 15th in points allowed as a defense. Can they be that good? I still have my doubts about that. And obviously points allowed is not a perfect metric. That depends a lot on who you're playing and all that stuff. And it's not as sound as EPA or DVOA.
- [47:25]
Robert Mays
Panthers were 22nd in defensive DV, 23rd in weighted defensive DVOA.
- [47:30]
Derek
Even then, I'm not sure the Bengals are going to be a whole lot better than that. I, I think they could be. I think part of it is if they either had a new defensive coordinator or one I was excited about, you could get me there to like 15th, 16th in the league, something like that. Like, if, if Lou was still there, you could, you could say maybe get me there.
- [47:49]
Eric
So they scapegoated Lou and now you're telling me that if they had Lou, you'd be more excited about this?
- [47:54]
Derek
Well, yes, I think he's good.
- [47:56]
Robert Mays
I, I'm with him on this and I'm dancing around this as like an idea, but I think, and I'm trying to like, go back and Think about the mistakes that I made and that we made and kind of projecting things last year and projecting things moving forward. I'm wondering if we're at a place where if a new coordinator comes in and that guy isn't immediately a difference maker, immediately year one, instantaneous first glance, like, that guy is making the players on this defense better. Should we have any faith that it's going to happen in year two? Like, obviously incremental gains can happen, but if it is an abject disaster, even if you're making the players considerably better, what should your realistic expectations be for that group in the second season under that coach? I think that overall I probably want to be doing a better job of reining in those expectations, even if the talent level is getting significantly better.
- [48:52]
Eric
It seems so wild to set that sort of time limit. Like, we used to think two or three years wasn't enough time and to say one like, you know, after one year. But at the same time, I watched the Spangles defense. I can't, I can't give them too much of a vote of confidence, even if the personnel is that much more better.
- [49:11]
Robert Mays
This isn't a situation where, like, if you're not a top five defense that year, that you're not doing a good job, it's that. But if you are, you have to be, again, better than a disaster. And I think this is the case with both the jets and the Bengals this year, where it's like, all right, we swapped out a ton of players. Are these units going to be better with. I know the jets defensive coordinator is different, but Aaron Glenn is going to be calling the defense, like, after what we saw last year, how much faith do we have in this group to maximize even what is a better collection of players? I think it's just a question worth asking a little bit harder than I have over the last couple years because I think it's led to some missteps in projecting what these teams are going to be. And I just, I 100% agree with Derek and his concerns here.
- [49:54]
Derek
That's kind of where I'm at. It's just harder to see the ceiling this way.
- [49:57]
Eric
I think I can't get all the way there with this. And, and some of that is because the Bengals have burned me in previous years. But it, like I said, I think. And we have, we have very recent examples of, you know, we talked. I think we talked about the Seahawks where they had eight different things click into place that not everybody was expecting to happen, and it turned them into. Even if you Were optimistic about the Seahawks and thought of them as like a playoff team. It turned them into way better of a team than most people anticipated ahead of time.
- [50:29]
Robert Mays
I, I thought last. Well, two things. One, they finished 10th in defensive DVOA. Seattle did in 2024.
- [50:34]
Eric
Yeah.
- [50:35]
Robert Mays
Even if the first stretches of the first half of the season, it looked a little bit ugly and they were figuring stuff out. They trade Furnes, Jones, things kind of start falling into place. They still finished 10th that year, but I think a lot of people thought they could be the best defense in the league last season.
- [50:48]
Eric
No, I, I mean, I mean multiple things. I mean I, I include JSN in that as well. Like JSN just turning into.
- [50:55]
Robert Mays
But that's year one of a play caller. That's year one. And so that's the thing is these like really surprising leaps forward often happen when a guy is there in year one. And there are examples. But like a lot of the examples I hang on to when it comes to all right, solid in year one, insane in year two are like the 20152016 Falcons. But even like the 2015 Falcons were like the 14th best offense in the league. And so it doesn't have to happen all at once immediately. But I think asking a team with the same coordinator, offense or defense to go from being one of the three or four worst in the league to decidedly above average, even with an infusion of talent, I just want to be a little bit more skeptical and cautious when we're projecting those sorts of leaps forward.
- [51:40]
Eric
And that's why I'd set the ceiling for the Bengals at more like, I mean, bottom half of the league still. Like if the Bengals could be up around 20, that would be a massive success story in my opinion. To your point, is that good enough to. I mean I, I think that would be good enough to get them back into the post season, but is that where you're trying to go?
- [52:00]
Robert Mays
I actually do want to go look and we'll do something like this, this off season. I do want to go look at where a lot of these defenses have been finishing for teams that are playing in the final four, getting deeper into the season like the this. Because there used to be a world where the Chiefs could be the 22nd ranked defense by DVOA and then you'd have spags in the playoffs. The Patriots could be the 27th best defense in the league and then they would do some weird shit in the playoffs. And I just wonder, is that a vestige of our previous era? We shouldn't be counting on anymore as we think about these team ceilings. But that's an entirely different conversation. All right, let's take one more quick break and then come back and hit a few more of these.
- [52:38]
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- [54:16]
Robert Mays
All right, this is one that Derek demanded that we have in here and that is the Rams cornerback room and how much different that group is going to look this year than it looked a year ago. I just completely forgot that Kobe Durant played 990 snaps for this team last year and Emmanuel Forbes played 900 on the outside. And so you have 1800 combined snaps from two guys that Forbes is still on the roster but in an ideal world is not a part of this rotation in the same way that he was last year. And so we have Jalen Watson and Trent McDuffie taking over both of those spots and So I think the cornerback room for this team, Derek, is going to feel considerably different in 2026 than it felt a year ago.
- [54:57]
Derek
It's going to feel a lot different. I mean, they were the smallest outside cornerback duo in the league last year. And I know that McDuffie is not a big guy either, but he is at least a better player than Kobe Durant. And Kobe Durant is fine, but he's A like, like McDuffie is a much better player of that similar archetype. And then obviously, you know, Watson is a much bigger guy than they had on the other side there with Emmanuel Forbes. So I'm excited about this because I think when they first started to do this, I was like, okay, the corners are going to be better, but I'm not sure, like trading as much as they did for McDuffie, where I think he's more of a nickel and they're going to play him outside. I was a little bit iffy on it and it's like, man, you're just running back the same outside duo, outside cornerback duo that the Chiefs just ran. And the Chiefs kind of struggled a lot on defense. But again, this is why it's like the situations matter. The Chiefs couldn't rush the passer. Yeah, the Chiefs could only rush the passer if they brought five and six. And even then those weren't getting home in the same way that Spags was able to in previous seasons. And so, and so now you come to a spot where they can win with just their base four, let alone all the funky shit that they throw where they're bringing an unconventional four and sometimes their five man pressures are really, really good. And so, so them now doing, letting these two corners, who I think Watson is a guy who can play really aggressive, like one on one man coverage, kind of get your hands on people. McDuffie I think will do that for a guy his size, but I think to me is more just like his trigger and his instincts are kind of phenomenal. But if he's able to do that now in a defensive system and you know, being more surrounded by a pass rush, that is actually going to allow him to jump stuff and be aggressive and he only has to buy less time and coverage than he was previously in Kansas City. I'm pretty bought in on where this is going. And also too like the other three DBs in this room are really good. Like their safeties and nickel play are pretty damn good.
- [56:38]
Robert Mays
I think that's the other part of it too is that in Kansas City, when McDuffie wasn't playing in the slot and Shamari Conner was playing there so much you just had questions about what the safeties looked like independent of whatever your worries about the pass rush were. And I think that this group overall is just so much more solid in both of those areas for the Rams. And the other part of it is like, I'm just wondering how much we do see McDuffie inside in certain personnel groupings. Like this team played 347 snaps in dime last year. That was almost a hundred more than any other team in the NFL. And so I wonder, does he bump inside and do we get those 300 snaps from Emmanuel Forbes instead of 900? And so do you still have the optionality there on the back end? Like, I just think there's so many different ways this could play out that are good for the Rams independent of your two starting corners being better on day one than they were a year ago.
- [57:25]
Eric
You talk about fun play callers like Chris Shula is going to find fun ways to use all of these different guys. Yeah, like I'd be, I'd be pretty surprised if Trent McDuffie is just out on an island all season long and isn't bouncing inside and outside and doing different stuff. And the Rams are going to be using three safety packages on plenty of occasions. And I just, I expect it to look very fun and different. My thing, it's just, it's very easy to look at the Rams and be like, oh, you upgraded your biggest weak spots on a team that was already loaded. It's a meme at this point. But it is just funny that they didn't feel that way about linebacker at
- [58:02]
Robert Mays
all where they're just, they never will. I mean that's, that, that's just never going to happen.
- [58:06]
Eric
Even with the small spend. I'm not asking you to go drop $40 million on a linebacker. It doesn't have to be Devin Lloyd.
- [58:12]
Robert Mays
But I think their linebacker play far cleared the bar for what they are, for what they want out of that
- [58:18]
Eric
position last year it was not bad. But. But if you're doing all this shit to gear up and you're clearly sending the signal of super bowl or bust, I have to assume you could have done something there.
- [58:30]
Robert Mays
When you consider what it has looked like in previous years and what they got out of that position last year, I think they're, they feel just fine.
- [58:37]
Eric
Like, what are you talking about?
- [58:38]
Robert Mays
This is Derek's given up.
- [58:41]
Derek
I listen, I'm the. I want good linebackers on all my favorite teams. Yada, yada, yada. I was trying to trade Jordan Brooks to three different teams. Dave, you and I were trying to trade Jordan Brooks to the Dallas Cowboys. I've just given up on the Rams. They're going to do what they do and it's can't really, I think I've given up because you can't really blame them, right? Like, they clearly have had a lot of success on defense over the years doing this, even if the linebacker plays like they're kind of just getting by. And I will say Landman played better last year than I thought he was going to and even Spades had flashes. But it's still, still, to Dave's point, one of the weaker parts on the roster.
- [59:12]
Eric
I'll blame them in January when they're getting cooked over the middle.
- [59:15]
Robert Mays
I'm just saying by adding those corners, I'm in a spot with the Rams where if they stay relatively healthy, I'm more worried about some of the relative weaknesses on offense than I am about the relative weaknesses on defense. Like if I were a Rams fan right now and I was concerned about what would hold them back from winning a Super bowl, it would be we didn't add a third pass catcher and our tackle depth is not what it was last year. McClendon's a starter instead of a depth piece and they drafted a tackle in the third round. But again, I'd just be more worried about where the offense could hold us back than I would be about the defense. And I just to be there considering what last year looked like.
- [59:50]
Eric
Here's a hot take for you. Being a fan of a team in this situation, not fun. I mean, it's going to be fun if the Rams win the super bowl. But knowing that the expectation is the super bowl and knowing that you've got to win 12 plus games to win this division or else you'll be back in Seattle in January trying to deal with that again. And knowing that your quarterback's older and you're, you know, your receivers are older and you didn't do a lot to bolster that depth, of course it's going to be fun. Of course they're going to be very good. But like it's, it's a long and grinding season with high expectations.
- [60:28]
Robert Mays
I call bullshit on this. I've watched so much terrible football in my life as a fan of a team.
- [60:33]
Eric
The stressful place to be.
- [60:35]
Robert Mays
It is a stressful place to be. If they didn't already have one in their back pocket, Stafford and McVay, then I think it might be a different conversation. I know this group has not won one, but if I'm a Rams fan, I'm coming into this season feeling like I'm going to have a pretty good time every single week. On the spectrum of what the experience can be watching your football team, even if you have Those expectations, the 2026 Los Angeles Rams are on one side of the spectrum.
- [61:01]
Eric
Of course you should be excited, and of course the season looks like it's going to be very fun for you. But. But just knowing, like, nothing that happens before Christmas can determine whether this season was like, a success.
- [61:16]
Robert Mays
There are 24 teams where nothing happens this season, period. Going into the season, nothing they can possibly do matters.
- [61:23]
Eric
It's just. It's. It's easier to find the joy when the expectations are a little bit lowered.
- [61:29]
Robert Mays
You know, I would push back on that as a fan of a team that's had no expectations many times. There are a lot of moments where it's hard to find the joy in teams.
- [61:39]
Eric
This is still what you aspire to, don't get me wrong, but I'd be shitting bricks if I was a Rams fan. Like, just understanding the expectations and all of the different ways that it could go wrong. And anything less than winning the super bowl is not gonna, like.
- [61:55]
Robert Mays
You're not gonna feel like you enjoy the ride, man.
- [61:58]
Eric
You can't enjoy the ride in this situation.
- [62:00]
Robert Mays
Enjoy the ride.
- [62:01]
Eric
There is no enjoying the ride. When Stafford's 38 and you came as close as you did last year.
- [62:05]
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Year.
- [62:06]
Robert Mays
Let's hit two more of these. The Steelers wide receivers, Derek, are going to look a lot different than they did a year ago. Calvin Austin was the second highest snap getter at receiver last year for the Steelers. He got 480 snaps. What did Calvin Austin sign for in free agency?
- [62:22]
Eric
Peanuts.
- [62:23]
Robert Mays
It was like a million bucks.
- [62:24]
Eric
It was nothing.
- [62:25]
Robert Mays
1.5 with a max value of. Max value of 4.5. He got 500 snaps for the Steelers last year. Next on that list was Roman Wilson at about 200 MVS and Adam Thielen. Those were the four guys after DK Metcalf.
- [62:40]
Derek
I was joking with our producer Katie before the show. I remember the Adam Thielen snaps because it's like they traded for him and there was, you know, the whole weird stuff with the. The, you know, him getting out of Carolina. I don't remember hardly a single thing about MBS being a Steeler, and I know that he was because he's one of Aaron Rodgers, his buddies. But I remember almost none of Those snaps, I think.
- [63:00]
Eric
Was it MVs that they just kept targeting at the end of that Browns game?
- [63:03]
Robert Mays
I think it was, yes.
- [63:04]
Eric
And was like personally offended that they wouldn't stop throwing at him.
- [63:08]
Robert Mays
I was personally offended by a lot of things the Steelers receivers did last year.
- [63:12]
Derek
Correct. And like, I think what's funny too about the way that they ran the offense last year where you mentioned Calvin Austin only getting, however, like 500 snaps, he played like 43% of the snaps that he was out there. So like their second wide receiver was playing less than half of the snaps. That's crazy because they were the big, let's put, you know, 13 personnel offense on the field all the time. And part of that was because they did have good tight ends. The other part of it was they just did not have other functional receivers you would want to even put out there. And so the fact that now they go and trade for Michael Pittman, who is not the sexiest receiver, but is like more than capable as a flex wide receiver too, can play us a big slot a little bit. And then getting Jeremy Bernard, who we talked about this on draft night. I think Metcalf is really good as like a field stretcher and some of these quick ISO routes. And I think that Pittman is good as like a move possession, get into zones type. Jeremy Bernard can do a little bit of everything, but he is now there, like just give somebody the ball and hope that he can make a play. And this offense really outside of like Jalen Warren, didn't really have that last year.
- [64:13]
Robert Mays
I just like the fact that you have two guys who, their biggest selling point is we can count on them to be a functional adult at wide receiver. Like that is this biggest selling point with Michael. They're very different players, obviously, but that is the biggest selling point, in my opinion, for Michael Pittman and Jeremy Bernard. And to put both of those guys. And to me, it's two different things. One, it's a contrast to what that group felt like last year, but it's also the types of players I want playing next to DK Metcalf. Like, all I want is guys that I can just rely on because as explosive menace, as exciting as there are moments where he's frustrating, I, I've. We've talked about this. Like, there are elements of his game that can be frustrating and so kind of riding the highs and the lows of the DK Metcalf experience while having two guys that just are reliable. And like, that is the biggest selling points at both of them. I See the vision for what this is supposed to be and how this is supposed to come together independent of the fact that it just needed to be better this year.
- [65:10]
Eric
Do you trust that it will? Because I love the way this, I love the way the receiver core to
- [65:15]
Robert Mays
a quarterback conversation that I don't want to have again.
- [65:17]
Eric
I like the way that the receiver corps, all the pieces complement each other. Michael Pittman is fantastic over the middle of the field. He's had the fifth most targets over the middle of the field among all receivers with 50 plus targets on the season. And that's something that the Steelers haven't really had. Rogers loves to throw slants, but outside
- [65:35]
Robert Mays
of that, you're telling me.
- [65:36]
Eric
Yeah, exactly. Outside of that though, he doesn't target the middle of the field that often. He only threw 24 passes in intermediate range, like 10 to 19 yards down the field over the middle. Does having Michael Pittman mean that he will. No, I, no, it'll be more spot.
- [65:53]
Derek
It'll be more spot and stick. But it's not going to be more
- [65:56]
Eric
like that's for you, the listener to decide.
- [65:58]
Robert Mays
I and I don't want to have this conversation again.
- [66:00]
Eric
Jimmy Bernard is. Okay, well, here's something that actually will happen if Aaron Rodgers is their quarterback. Jeremy Bernard's a good, a really good yak guy and that is how the Steelers got all their yards last year was yak.
- [66:13]
Robert Mays
And so considering they threw what percentage of their total passes behind the line of scrimmage.
- [66:17]
Derek
Yeah, right. Listen, I, I do not think this offense is going to be good, but if you are trying to build the Aaron Rodgers offense for one last ride, it's an 11 personnel offense where two of the wide receivers are like, can they just be in the right spot and catch the football and run forward once I give it to them? And at least Michael Piven and Jeremy Bernard can do that again. I don't really trust that you're going to get high enough ceiling out of the quarterback for that to mean anything, but I at least do think that like that's how you should probably try to try to build the thing.
- [66:46]
Eric
Not to write off the Aaron Rodgers experience entirely, but you made a point that I've been thinking about a lot the other day, Maze, which is eventually it won't be Aaron Rodgers.
- [66:56]
Robert Mays
That's kind of where I'm at. And this is more about what next year looks like to me.
- [66:59]
Derek
I still think it's a fine receiver core even without that. Like if it's not Aaron Rodgers, if it's just Insert X quarterback.
- [67:04]
Eric
No, that's my point is whatever, whatever the next quarterback is, whether it's a draft pick or the next middle tier reclamation project guy, whatever, this is a nice receiver core that will be in place for that guy.
- [67:18]
Robert Mays
All I've thought about with the Steelers this offseason and what they're building is is this going to be a hospitable place for whatever big swing they take a quarterback in 2027. I hope it's a big swing. Like I, I hope that there is somebody that has a theoretical upside that we are excited about. They'll be playing quarterback for the Steelers next year.
- [67:37]
Eric
I want you to close your eyes and imagine it's like week 11 and Rogers tweaked his thumb and Michael Pittman's been playing really well and Jeremy Bernard is having a fantastic rookie season and we're pounding the table on a Thursday afternoon for the Drew Aller experience because it gave me.
- [67:56]
Robert Mays
I want it now. I don't even care how ugly it is.
- [67:58]
Eric
You're not going to get it now though. Like you're not, you're not going to get it assuming Aaron Rodgers signs, which whenever that happens, it's it. It's not going to happen right away. So I'm just daydreaming of an excuse to get excited about the Steelers.
- [68:12]
Robert Mays
It's beyond the receiving core to me. Like the offensive line, that group coming together and then again, what did he even look like next year? Like the fact that every single piece of that offensive line, I mean both Zach Frazier and Mason McCormick will be in the final year of their deals in 2027. A Hannah church will be in year two. Like this is a multi year proposition for the Steelers. Their entire offensive infrastructure. I can get behind it. It's just the one lingering shitty question we all have to keep asking ourselves. I don't like the answers to it. Last one here. The Cowboys secondary is going to look and feel considerably different this year than it did a year ago. We have theoretically Caleb Downs probably playing a lot of nickel for this team with Jalen Thompson and Lee Hooker both at safety. Last year we had ready Stewart. Kair Elam and Trayvon Diggs played more than 1300 snaps combined for the Cowboys secondary. Donovan Wilson was the, I think the biggest snap getter on the entire defense and played 900 snaps at safety. He is still a free agent right now. And so most of this group like four of the five pieces in terms of the actual day one getting most of the snap. Starters are probably going to be different in 2026 than they were a year ago. Derek.
- [69:29]
Derek
And I mean, you didn't even mention the guy who. I felt like when I was watching the Cowboys during the season, I was like, man, this is, this is how bad it's gotten. Triquasy Bridges and like Kaylin Carson when they were getting some of those snaps because those guys were already like fourth or fifth down the chart and then they had a bunch of injuries and like, like it just got really bad for that secondary. Kobe Durant is one where it is both true that the Rams were right to move on from a player like that if they are trying to like really advance their window and really try to make a push as a Super bowl defense. And the Cowboys are much better off for having a player like him than they had last year. Because I do think Durant, there's, there's some size concerns that you're going to have with him, but I do think in like a zone based type of like Fangio ish system that you're probably going to get with Christian Parker, I think Durant actually fits that really, really well. And I think Downs is a guy where it's probably going to look like. I think the ideal outcome here is that it looks a lot like when Brian Branch moved full time to the nickel where they're like similar ish body types and not the sexiest athletes, but they are just so damn smart and they're very sound tacklers. And so I think that he could give you that, which again is not something they've really had in that defense on the back end for a while. And then I think Thompson's just a really nice, like he can play the post, he can play down in the box a little bit, but I think just a movable safety in that style of defense is going to go a long way for them. Like, I'm, I'm buying a lot of how they've retooled this thing.
- [70:47]
Robert Mays
I mean, just movable safeties in general. Like we're at a place now where in, in these defenses specifically, it's just really important that both of your safeties can do a little bit of everything. Like having those guys be more interchangeable pieces that have overlapping skill sets and you don't know which guy is going to be coming down into the box every single time you line up in some of those umbrella type looks, that's really important. And Jalen Thompson is somebody that has played. I mean, you look at what they did in Arizona over the last several years, we're not Only talking about two safety sets. We're talking about three safety sets. Like, he is used to playing amorphous in an amorphous defense, where you're asking him to do a little bit of everything. And that's exactly what's going to be happening here.
- [71:24]
Eric
This includes more than just the secondary, but across their defense. If you look at the Dallas two deep 18 of the 22, 23 guys that you would be leaning on the most on defense have been there for
- [71:38]
Robert Mays
a year or less, and you combine that. It's the contrast we were talking about with the Bengals. You do have a new defensive coordinator. Yeah. And so again, there is this, like, theoretical upside along with how many component parts you're changing out. Where. If you told me the Cowboys were a shockingly better defense than they were a year ago, I think that's an argument that I could get behind because along with the players that you're changing out, the guy that's pulling the levers is also different.
- [72:04]
Eric
Similar to the Bengals. We joked about this on a previous show. I mean, they drafted Jayson Barum. They said they're going to play him off ball to start. We'll see how that goes. They traded for D winners. I still don't. I don't love the linebacker situation as it stands right now, but you can't argue with the totality of. Of the. Of the work that they've done, just revamping and replacing everything. And strangely enough, other than, I guess, I mean, defensive tackle, just because Quinn and Williams is there, really. But the. The secondary and the safety group is probably what I feel best about, which was such a nightmare for them for most of last year.
- [72:41]
Robert Mays
Yeah.
- [72:42]
Eric
The.
- [72:42]
Robert Mays
The defensive line has also changed out a lot of pieces. That's one of those. Where I look at the defensive line, it's like, how much better is it, really?
- [72:48]
Derek
Yeah. You're asking a. You're asking Rashawn Gary to turn back the clock, like two or three years to really get back to a level for me to get excited about what the front four is supposed to look like.
- [72:58]
Robert Mays
Like Lawrence.
- [73:00]
Derek
Right.
- [73:01]
Robert Mays
You really need somebody. You really need something from Malkai Lawrence. I think for the front to come together. I think maybe this is putting a little bit too much on Caleb Downs from day one. I think there's a little bit less guesswork in imagining, like, what the best version of the secondary can look like.
- [73:15]
Eric
Yeah.
- [73:16]
Derek
And.
- [73:16]
Eric
Well, but I think it's. I think it's fair to put that much expectation on Caleb Downs. Like, that's how we've talked about him as a prospect and that's what I've heard about him every step of the way from when he was a freshman at Alabama to what you're hearing coming out of the Cowboys facility since he got drafted. So it is a lot to live up to but I'm comfortable putting that on him based on on what we know about him as a player and the versatility that he brings and the the IQ that he brings to this as well.
- [73:44]
Robert Mays
I love the contrast with the offense which has no new players. Not a single addition to the starting 11 players in the offense for the
- [73:51]
Eric
Cowboys Marquez Valdez scaling is in Dallas
- [73:54]
Robert Mays
now I'm not this is Ryan Flournoy disrespectful is not going to be a starting player in 11.
- [74:01]
Eric
I just know I just wanted to tie it back to mbs. No Ryan Flournoy is going to blow up. I mean he already has depending on who you ask. But I got high expectations for him.
- [74:09]
Robert Mays
The argument for why that Dallas's offense will feel better and I'm sure we'll hit this when we're doing buying and selling it's offensive line injuries. It's that being healthier up front, better up front guys developing up there. It's a little bit different to me than like the conversation we had about the Falcons last year where the Falcons did absolutely nothing to improve their offense or add to their offense. Last year the only thing that the Falcons missed in 2024 was Ryan Newsle played like half the season for Drew Dahlman. Other than that they were remarkably healthy across the board. Like there was no reason to really think the Falcons offense would be different and potentially better than it was the year before for the Cowboys. I think you can actually squint and start making that argument.
- [74:46]
Derek
And like the other difference too is like we did that with the Falcons and the Cardinals last year right where it's like they didn't really change anything and they were interesting units that we wanted to take next step. The the Dallas offense is already a rocket ship. Like they're already extremely good. And so the fact that again if we can bake in maybe just a little bit of improvement second year in the system, them staying healthy, all that stuff. Like there's reason to believe that even if it's not perfect, it's still a top 10 offense.
- [75:11]
Robert Mays
All right. That is all we've got for the most re the the most that is all we've got for the most remade units in the NFL heading into next year. I like doing this it's a good like off season reset to kind of recalibrate expectations for some of these teams because it is really difficult to just eject your previous understanding with some of these groups look like as you project these teams moving forward. Tomorrow we're going to chat a little about the sneakier additions that teams made this off season and some of the ones that might have a bigger impact than we might have thought at first glance. That's tomorrow. We're going to do some buying, some selling, some off season a little bit later in the week. Got a full week coming your guys way for now. Appreciate you listening. Talk to you very soon. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like comment and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.
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