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- [00:00]
Robert Mays
Hi, it's Matt here from P1 with.
- [00:02]
Tommy Beller
Matt and Tommy and this episode is sponsored by ebay. Ever tried to buy a car online and end up in a parking lot.
- [00:08]
Robert Mays
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Tommy Beller
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Robert Mays
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Tommy Beller
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- [00:23]
Robert Mays
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- [00:24]
Tommy Beller
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- [00:38]
Robert Mays
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- [00:50]
Derek Classen
People, and even spotting risks across dozens of projects, Monday Sidekick knows your business, thinks ahead and takes action.
- [00:57]
Robert Mays
One click on the star and consider it done.
- [01:00]
Sponsor Voice 1
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- [01:03]
Derek Classen
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- [01:11]
Sponsor Voice 2
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- [02:03]
Robert Mays
Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays mentioned this on the recap shows this weekend, but we wanted to spend some time today just doing some half post mortems. Half what comes next? Sets of questions for the teams that lost this weekend. So on this show we've got the five losers from the weekend the Carolina Panthers, the Green Bay packers, the Jacksonville Jaguars, the Philadelphia Eagles and the Los Angeles Chargers. The loser of Monday's game, which we do not know yet because we're recording this about 4 o' clock on Monday. We're going to tackle that team and that version of this conversation on that Monday night recap. And so that's now that's why we did not hit the loser of the Monday night game among this group. But the other five teams we tried to just hit on their biggest questions this off season, some of the resources that they're going to have, what sort of changes might be coming. Really enjoyed this conversation with Derek Classen. Let's get to it right now. We alluded to this on both recap shows that we did this weekend. We're going to spend some time on Monday doing sort of post mortems of sort, but also just looking forward at what needs to change, what the priority should be like for all of the teams that lost to this weekend. We Beller sent me some initial notes about the layout and some details about each team and I was like, what order is this in? It's like it's the order they were eliminated in. So that's what we're going to do today. We're going to go through all five teams that were eliminated from playoff contention this weekend and just chat about what their future might look like.
- [03:37]
Tommy Beller
I'm, I'm pretty excited for this. I think when I went into this I was, I think when you come out of the games, you assume whatever you're going to think about the seam is going to be a little bit more complicated than it is. But then I kind of dug into a lot of these and for the most part, other than maybe the last team we're going to talk about, I felt like, like what I kind of thought actually coming out of the game is about where I landed after doing a little bit more research, digging, trying to look forward.
- [03:58]
Robert Mays
So as you were starting this process with the Panthers, what was like the first thought that came to your mind?
- [04:03]
Tommy Beller
Really cool story. This team is still not good. They are, it's not a good roster. They paid, they paid to be better on defense and they were. But this was still the 22nd best defense in the league and they were by DVOA and they were 25th on offensive DVOA. And I think that that is a little bit skewed by like the offensive line being really banged up towards the second half of the year. So they couldn't run the, I think quite the way that they had for the first half of the season where they actually were kind of giving it to teams. But still this was, I think we all knew how lucky it felt in the moment that they could escape with 8 and 9 not even winning their final game, still getting in. But I think when you're in the moment you still try to play it up like how nice of a team this actually was. But then you look at it again, this was they were by dvoa marginally better than the New York Giants. We think about those two teams extremely differently, but it's probably more reality that they are closer than than we would think.
- [04:54]
Robert Mays
Close is a good term because I think what I'm thinking about the Panthers from this season, it's really important to acknowledge the strides that they made, especially on the defensive side of them. I mean that's where they really went from historically bad to an acceptable level by the time we got to the end of the year. The number that I think puts the finest point on that. Last year the Panthers were the only team in next gen history with a run defense success rate on with a run defense success rate of 50% or more. Since 2016 they're the only team with that allowed a 50% rushing success rate or more. They allowed 3,000 rushing yards in 2024. They tied for the worst mark in next gen in the next gen era at EPA per rush was like 0.12 which is a very good passing game, like very good. Like top five passing game. This year they go from a 50% rushing success rate allowed to 38.8 which was the seventh best mark in the league. They finished 23rd overall in defensive DVOA. They were still bottom 10 in EPA drop back. We'll get to somewhere where some of the holes are with the team personnel wise, but they made significant strides on that side of the ball. I do think that the offense when the full arsenal of players was there, you can talk yourself into what that can be moving forward. If you're trying to spin it optimistically because I had the exact same numbers, they were still 26 in EPA per drop back per next gen stats. They were 26 in passing Dboa with Jalen Coker on the field. They were a league average passing game by EPA per drop back. And so that was in the back half of the season when the offensive line was banged up in the running game wasn't very good. So if you can have Coker, McMillan, Shatavian Sanders comes back, you find some sort of like speed number three receiver if you like feel like Leggett's getting pushed out of the rotation or that's just what he becomes for you, right? He's just a role player which is fine. You have the offensive line coming back with a couple question marks which we can talk about and you feel like some of the flashes that you got from Bryce Young and high leverage moments and some of the throat big time throws he was able to make. That's something that you can carry over. Is there a path for this being the 14th best offense in the league next year? I think if you're trying to spin it optimistically, like there is a world where that can all come together for.
- [07:07]
Tommy Beller
You, I think they can do that. They're just that to me still feels like a really high end outcome. And also I think if they don't fix the offensive line and fixed meaning like they're. A couple of guys are pending free agents. Iki Aquanu is potentially not going to be healthy for next year. So they've got some things to answer on that side. To me, the identity of the team and the settling part of the team is still when they can run the ball like it felt like they were. Their best games were when they could control the game like the Rams games, especially the first one felt like kind of lucky in the sense that again you're betting on like these fourth down plays where you're just chucking it up to the big. And that can work sometimes, but I think that just leaves you in a really volatile space with their passing game. So I think if they mostly go into next year with a lot of the same guys and maybe the offensive line is 5 to 10% worse even at their best because of again some of the injuries a couple of guys leaving that to me just. It still feels like even if you have a couple of those games that are really high, like the Falcons game or a couple of those Rams games, it just feels like there's still to me going to be a lot of the lows where you just straight up lose games because of the way that your offense plays at times.
- [08:09]
Robert Mays
That's what happened all the time this year. I mean it was the most inconsistent offense in the league by pretty much every single measure. The offensive line composition is worth considering. Like you said, Iki Aquanu, we're going to say this multiple times on this show, has a torn patellar tendon. It's a devastating injury for anybody, but it's happening consistently with so many offensive linemen. If you look at some of the numbers behind it, only like 55% of guys who sustain that injury even come back from that injury at all. And yes, wow. And if you look at like the actual like historic medical data associated with the injury, it's a devastating injury. And in terms of return to like performance level, which is a nebulous kind of way of framing it, but I think they did it by like pff grade. This is like an actual like study that was done. It's like 35% of guys return to previous levels of performance within two years. So it's a career altering injury for a lot of players. There are some recent success stories. Josh Simmons is somebody who tore his. Patel attended a year ago. He came back, looked healthy, was playing well for the Chiefs. And so there are guys who can come back from it pretty quickly. But it is an injury that can truly change the course of your career. When you're a player who weighs 330 pounds the way that Nikki Ikwanu does.
- [09:17]
Tommy Beller
That's the other thing is like these big guys, especially once they have the lower body injuries. Exactly that, that can be really scary. I guess if you're trying to like paint the silver lining on the other end. Like Robert Hunt should be healthier next year. So you have at least a little bit of a push and pull there. But again, like Taylor Moten is getting a little bit older and like you've just got other guys on the interior that are potentially up for free agency. Like there's just going to be, it's just going to be a different offensive line next year than it was this year.
- [09:42]
Robert Mays
Center is the, is the question. Because Kate Mays and Austin Corbett are both hitting free agency by the end of the season. Cade Mays was. He kind of won that job. And I'm actually curious what his market's going to look like in free agency this year. I think you can make an argument for trying to bring him back.
- [09:56]
Tommy Beller
They probably sh. They probably should. I mean he'll be, he'll, he'll be the best young center on the market. There are a couple other guys. Yeah, I guess Linderbaum is also like specific. Well, and that also to me, I, I would be shocked if the Ravens just don't find a way to make that work.
- [10:13]
Robert Mays
I mean, if he's hitting free agency, he's going to have suitors.
- [10:16]
Tommy Beller
We'll get to a team a little.
- [10:17]
Robert Mays
Bit later that I feel like could very much be so. And then left tackle and center. The questions there again, I think we'll see what happens with the receiving core. But if Leggett just becomes your number three kind of vertical player, I think you can live that way. The tight end room has some pieces to it like Mitchell Evans was.
- [10:34]
Tommy Beller
They have three like quality.
- [10:36]
Robert Mays
There's, there's a decent collection of supporting cast pieces here. The Bryce Young of all of this. I'M at a spot where he has played well enough that you just keep trying to chip away at getting the most you can with what he's giving you and trying to build the best roster you can around him. Early Reports Adam Schefter, I think said earlier this week that they are going to pick up his fifth year option. It's going to be 27 million in 2027. That's a lot of money. But at the same time, the downside case, if he has a really nice season, a really nice lame duck season and then you're sitting there at the end of 20, you're like, what are we going to do? The franchise tag is likely going to be like $48 million in 2027. And so you're protecting yourself here and kind of giving yourself a two year Runway at the position. I still have my questions about what a Bryce Young offense and what the ceiling of a Bryce Young offense looks like, but I feel like he's played well enough where he definitively falls into like a you can win with him bucket if a lot of the other stuff going around going on around him is right. And I feel like that's kind of how the Panthers have to operate because I'm not sure they have a different solution at this point.
- [11:41]
Tommy Beller
I think I kind of agree with that and kind of don't. I think you can win with him insofar as being like your ceiling is like a 10 win team. I think his ceiling is right. It's just significantly lower than like. Cause in my mind like the ideal like win with quarterback is like a Baker Mayfield, but like his, his ceiling is significantly higher. It can like push you to like top five, seven offense.
- [11:59]
Robert Mays
Yeah. Yes. I don't think you're going to be a top five or seven. I said it before. I think you're shooting for being like the 14th best offense and I think you can win with that sort of construction. But it's a narrow path. But I'm just not sure if you're the Panthers right now, where else you would seek out an option. And I think he played well enough that you just have to see what you can do with him next year.
- [12:19]
Tommy Beller
And that's the thing. If this was the 2024 draft class where there's like five or six guys that people are trying to sell themselves on and it's like we can shuffle around a little bit in the first round and maybe we can go get a guy. This just doesn't seem like the class that you would even do that Even if you wanted one team pick. Yeah. You have the 19th pick and there's like one and a half quarterback prospects that anybody likes. Like, it's very unlikely that would really get yourself in position to, to, to get one of those guys. And so I understand them picking up the fifth year option in terms of you probably weren't going to replace him this offseason and then next off season, like 27 million or whatever sounds like a lot of money, but it's half of whatever the going rate is for a quarterback. So it's kind of whatever. It's really not as financially binding as it sounds. I just, I think I'm still at a point where I would be. Even though I get why they picked up the option to save themselves for this year and next year, I just would be shocked if they ever get to a point where they feel like they are going to extend him.
- [13:10]
Robert Mays
I think that's probably right. Or extend him at like the market.
- [13:12]
Tommy Beller
Right. At like a market rate.
- [13:14]
Robert Mays
Right. And we don't see, I mean anybody, any quarterback who is getting a contract with the team that drafted them after the end of that rookie contract is getting $50 million.
- [13:23]
Tommy Beller
They're not getting the, the Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield $30 million. Yes. They're getting the 50 million up. Up in that range.
- [13:29]
Robert Mays
I'm really curious if a team does eventually sit there and say we're giving you the mid tier quarterback contract like that that's what you deserve. That's the type of player you are it. But and this is two years down the road, we're going to have to have this conversation. But Bryce Young is the type of guy where maybe you could talk yourself into that. At the same time though, if you're doing that with, with a quarterback in that situation, most of the time the reason those quarterback contracts are handed out is because teams have to give out those quarterback contracts because they don't have a pathway to someone else. And so I just think you see what happens. You see what you get out of Bryce Young in 2026 and then in the 2027 off season, you evaluate your options. I think that's where the Panthers are right now.
- [14:06]
Tommy Beller
Yeah.
- [14:08]
Robert Mays
Just the state of the roster overall and the reason that this team does not have a lot of like financial wiggle room and they're. They have like $29 million in cap space per over the cap heading into 2026. They're going to carry over some cap space. They don't have a lot of like clear ways to save a ton of money against the cap either. There are four or five million dollars cuts here and there, but there aren't a lot of like, oh, we'll save 20 million if we move on from this guy. And part of that is just because they've had to spend in free agency to overcome what their drafts have looked like over the last three years. The 2024 draft is already looking tough. Drafted Xavier in the first round, Jonathan Brooks in the second round, Trevin Wallace in the third round. Not. None of those guys have really been contributors to what you've been as a team over the last couple of years. 2023 draft is just Bryce Young, 2022 draft is just Ikea Kwame. That's it. So there just is not an underlying foundation of talent here. And that's why they had to go out and spend. And if you look at all the guys that are making like real money on this team, Trevin Merrick, Robert Hunt, Damian Lewis, to Sean Wharton, those guys will cost like $80 million against the cap this year combined. And then you've already given out extensions to Taylor Moten, to Derek Brown, to J.C. horn, the guys that are worth handing out money to. But this is not a cheap roster. Like they have spent a lot of the resources. So there aren't a lot of clear pathways to adding a bunch of talent in a bunch of different positions. If I had to kind of settle on what their needs are and where I would seek out modest additions sometime this off season to round out, especially the defense. Off ball linebacker, I think is where you have to start. Christian Roseman is hitting for is a free agent after this year. Even if he wasn't, that's a position that I think you still have to upgrade. Trevin Wallace, I think is still a question mark heading into his third year after being hurt for a good chunk of this season. I think you need another pass rusher. Scorton is, I think on his way to being like a solid number two.
- [16:00]
Sponsor Voice 2
Yes.
- [16:00]
Robert Mays
Princely is, I think is a good situational number three pass rusher, third round pick. I think that's probably what he is. You need to try to go out and find like a true difference maker on the edge at some point because.
- [16:12]
Tommy Beller
You even for as I think optimistic as we might be about those two guys and I really do like Nick Swarton and obviously they have Derrick Brown. This was still the worst pass rush in the league. Like them and the Niners who lost Nick Bosa and like three other guys. Those two were equal pass rushes for most of this season.
- [16:28]
Robert Mays
Yes. And they. A lot of their additions and body types are run stoppers.
- [16:33]
Tommy Beller
Right?
- [16:33]
Robert Mays
They went out and got Bobby Brown, they have Derek Brown, they have a Sean Robinson, like, that's. They. Whatever they wanted to be in that area, they accomplished that. But they still need more pass rush juice. And then I think the last position, I would say they need a little bit more ranged athleticism on the back end. Right. Nick Scott is playing a ton of snaps for this team. The way that they use Trevin Merrick close to the line of scrimmage, I think just a safety that's going to cover some ground for you on the back end that is worth seeking out.
- [17:00]
Tommy Beller
If you're Caroline and you don't want Trevin Merrick to, like, be your band Aid solution to that. Be like, oh, we'll just play Trevin Merrick a little bit deeper and we'll play somebody else in the box.
- [17:08]
Derek Classen
He.
- [17:08]
Tommy Beller
The closer he is to the box, to the action, he's been better. That was true. Even at points when he was in Las Vegas, there were stretches where they played him too far at deep safety and he was just kind of, you know, quiet. And then like, the closer he can get to the line of scrimmage, make a. Make a little bit of noise. He was really, really good this year doing that.
- [17:23]
Robert Mays
They drafted Lathan Ransom in the fourth round this year. You know, I think you go with a veteran for most of the year with Scott. Is he somebody that can take over that job next season? That gives you an answer then the personality. That's worth pointing out. The Mike Jackson contract looks awesome. Him making like $8 million against the cap, considering how good he was for them this year, that contract looks really, really good. In retrospect of.
- [17:44]
Tommy Beller
Of all the signings they made, like Trevin Merrick, you. You paid him what you should for that safety, and he, I think, made good on that. Mike Jackson is significantly like an incredible contract compared to all the guys that they handed out up front. Like, the Mike Jackson contract looks awesome. He. He was about as good as a number two corner can be this year. He was awesome.
- [18:00]
Robert Mays
It's always dangerous to think about things in this way, but with Carolina specifically, I think you just try to have incremental gains on both sides of the ball. Can you go from being the 22nd best offense and defense in the league to a top 15 offense and defense next year and just be competitive, just be competitive in the NFC South? I truly think that is a reasonable pathway and a reasonable outcome for next year's Panthers. I think that's on the table. I feel like you have to be. I think you have to feel pretty good about what you've gotten from Canales and from the staff over the first couple years and the path that you're on. I think you just keep trying to tread the path that you're on.
- [18:37]
Tommy Beller
And that's the thing I think with the offense, even if I got question about the quarterback, I can sell myself that just like another year of like, yeah, Tedro McMillan gets even a little bit better. They figure out how more they want to use all these three tight ends. Those guys stay a little bit healthier. I can. And Canal is just honing what he wants to do with the offense. I can get myself there on that. The defense, it's. It's going to need to be like two pretty significant upgrades up front for me to start to feel good about it.
- [18:58]
Robert Mays
Get to our next one here. The Green Bay Packers. Obviously the biggest question that has to be answered about the Packers. We've gotten some clips clarity on in the last 24 hours or so. Multiple reports that they're going to start working on an extension for Matt LaFleur. I mean that's the biggest question about the Matt LaFleur part of this. That's different than some of the other coaching considerations. It's not just whether you want to move from Matt LaFleur. It's he's going to be. His contract is up after the 2026 season and so he needs a new contract extension. And I assume he's going to want a lot of money to be the head coach of the Green Bay Packers. I'm not surprised that they're starting that process because I think he should be the head coach of the Green Bay Packers. We've talked about this.
- [19:35]
Tommy Beller
I also think he should. I just think optically it is going to look really funny when they give him like a pretty hefty extent extension after the worst loss of his packers tenure. Probably like that. That is going to look pretty, pretty funny.
- [19:49]
Robert Mays
I spent a lot of time thinking about this on like Sunday morning and just the idea of whether they should move on from him. What that would look like and where I land with this is I just don't know who these like magical coaches are, who people are think are going to come in and give you better results than somebody like Matt Lafleur has.
- [20:07]
Tommy Beller
Given you the playoffs once they've won like 10 plus games in a majority of those seasons.
- [20:13]
Robert Mays
This is an incredibly frustrating loss and I'm not trying to diminish that or dismiss that. If you're a Packers fan and you're sitting here wanting some heads to roll, I can understand that. But if you just take a step back and you think about what this has been in the last few years when they've pivoted to this version of the roster with Jordan Love and all of the young pieces that they have in 23, they I think they're over 123 was like eight and a half. They make the playoffs, they destroy the Cowboys in the wild card round and then they give the Niners all they can stand on the road in the divisional round. It is a roaring success of a season. The problem is they haven't really built on that and that we can discuss that. But that is a great first step with this version of the packers, which I think is demonstrably different than the Aaron Rodgers version of the packers was in 24. You again surpass your over your preseason over under. You go on the road and lose to the eventual super bowl champions as five point underdogs. As one of the youngest teams in the league, I think that's totally reasonable. This year their over under was ten and a half. They finished nine, seven and one. They didn't try in week 18 against the Vikings. If they beat the vikings in week 18, they would have had 10 and a half wins. When you consider the tie and they flame out in the playoffs and that's worth considering. But at the same time I look at this and I think that there probably should be some reflection and some change based on how this season ended. You do some stuff with the staff, you think about some of your situational processes.
- [21:45]
Tommy Beller
That's if there's any serious concern and contention about how Matt LaFleur operates, it's to me it's like he does sometimes play to not lose the game like. And I that obviously, obviously it's easy to say that coming off of the Bears game they just had where they're trying to play pretty conservatively. I thought in the second half, to me it was the Dallas game. The drive that they have at the end of that where they are playing for the tying field goal instead of trying to win the game. That to me is insanity. When you have a roster and a quarterback as good as they like you just you should be a little bit more aggressive. And it does infuriate me at times that there are moments where it just feels like he doesn't want to put foot to the, to the pedal.
- [22:21]
Robert Mays
And even some of the timeout usage in this last game. I just think those are the elements of being a head coach that are important. But none of these head coaching candidates or prospects or the guys that you would hire are perfect. None of them have all of these things that all line up at the same time. I just don't think you're going to go out and find somebody that's giving you. When you think about the different ways that you can affect the game as a head coach, and I think Matt LaFleur affects the game as a play calling offensive head coach in a meaningful way, they are consistently getting an advantage on that side of the ball and that's incredibly valuable. Whatever drawbacks he has with some of the situational stuff, I don't think offsets what you're getting in that way. So this idea that you're going to go out and get like a true head coach, that's really going to be a difference maker in that way. What are the chances that if you add it all up in the aggregate, you're going to get the offensive advantage with that sort of coach? Like those guys, your Vrabels, your Harbaughs, your Dan Campbells, like those guys are great in some of the situational stuff in that CEO type role. But I think you see the downsides of that. Like you saw with Dan Campbell this year having to change out Coordina. You've seen it with Variable in the past when he hasn't had the right coordinator. You see it with Jim Harbaugh right now as he's about to fire his offensive coordinator. Even somebody like John Harbaugh, the idea that like, well, what if we replaced Matt LaFleur with John Harbaugh? So you're going to replace your head coach because he's crashing out at the end of some of these games and you're going to go hire John Harbaugh, who has had the exact same problem over the last couple of weeks.
- [23:47]
Tommy Beller
Better rosters and a better quarterback. And I still like John Harbaugh, but you know what I'm saying.
- [23:51]
Robert Mays
I just think that there, there are not these magical solutions. Like there isn't this perfect coaching candidate out there that is without question. And even if you're playing the percentages going to give you a better chance to win with this roster than Matt LaFleur has consistently given you.
- [24:07]
Tommy Beller
You can also learn how to do that stuff. And there's a chance that he never does. Maybe this is just a blind spot for him forever, but both Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan are significantly better in those areas than they were two years ago, three years ago. And we saw Sean McVay win a Super bowl when he wasn't any good at that stuff.
- [24:23]
Robert Mays
I want to say this, the floor, when it comes to the feel of the game type of decisions and like the aggressiveness and all of that, that's a different conversation that like going forward on fourth down. If you look at it, if you look like Ben Baldwin's numbers, no team went forward on four down at a higher percentage in the situations where they should this year than the Green Bay Packers. So there is like situational decision making where he is doing some of the right things. So I just think that we, you should not overreact to how the season ends in this way and cut bait with this staff and think that you're going to do better elsewhere because I just don't think you're going to. I think this is probably the best coach that you're going to get and if you want to have some upgrades and Justice Gate has talked a lot about this where they don't really pay their coaches very much. And so the pool of money to pay assistance isn't very high when they are promoting people. Like when Adam Stanovich gets is the offensive coordinator who's just promoted into that job from the offensive line coach, they just promoted someone else from within the staff to that offensive line coach job. And again, again, if you want to reevaluate how you're handling some of that stuff, I think those are the types of smaller changes that are maybe worth making rather than completely hitting the reset button from with somebody who has been as successful as Matt LaFleur.
- [25:35]
Tommy Beller
Right. And because then even if you're looking at that from the packers organization perspective, some of the assistant coaching stuff and whatever, that's not Matt Lafleur's fault. Like you could say that maybe you should hire better people, but if the pool of money to do so is a little bit more pinched, it's harder for him to do that.
- [25:48]
Robert Mays
Some of the personnel questions for next year I think is kind of where my mind goes next. The defense after the Micah injury, they were 29th in EPA per drop back they were 30th in defensive success rate. Like that defense without Micah Parsons was not good enough. And so I wonder what changes there, especially if Jeff Athlet gets hired away to be a head coach. Like you're gonna have to potentially handle that. And then some of the personnel stuff, Rashawn gary has a 28 million dollar cap hit next year. I just don't think he's going to play on a $28 million capita. He's not giving you that sort of impact. I think you probably need another interior defensive lineman. Even though Devonte Wyatt's coming back, Quay Walker is hitting free agency and sadly it does seem like they probably need an outside corner at some point. And the fact that they gave Nate Hobbs that contract and now he's sitting there as not one of your top three corners with Bullard in the nickel, but he's making $12 million next year. We talked about this right after the game. Like I think that the, the ways they spent their money and some of off season and the fact that all of them look like if not huge misses then guys who are not actively contributing to making the team better. That's a tough place to be if.
- [26:56]
Tommy Beller
You'Re the packers, if you spend that much money and those are still your problem points, even if it's not necessarily like glaring red lights that that is a massive problem. So yeah, like them, I think the secondary, even though like the Nate Hobbs thing hurts and they're probably going to need to fix the outside corner a little bit. To me, it really does come down to the defensive line because obviously the way that they bled talent there over the course of the year was kind of insane. Obviously you trade Kenny Clark, which getting Michael Parsons back for that. You would much rather have Michael Parsons, but you do lose a body on defensive tackle. You lose Devonta Wyatt at some point this season. And then almost every guy behind Devonta Wyatt at some point was in and out of the lineup at this season. I mean there were stretches where they were down to like D lineman 6 and at certain points in the season that wasn't necessarily the case in this last game. But they I think really need to fix their depth there because if they. If they can't defend the run and part of what Hafley wants to do is be in some of this too high stuff and throw some of these funky pressures. Well, if you're in second and four all the time, who gives a shit? You don't get to do any of that stuff.
- [27:52]
Robert Mays
Be curious what happens with Que Walker. He's a free agent. He was playing well by the end of the season. The linebackers are one of the strengths of that defense when you're watching them by the end of the season. So if he's gone, then that's somebody that you potentially need to replace, which that's worth considering. Anything else about the Packers? Anything else about just what's on your mind as it relates to the end of this Green Bay packers season and what might need to be a little bit different next year?
- [28:15]
Derek Classen
I.
- [28:17]
Tommy Beller
The. I'm actually fine if they move forward with like what the skill players are because again, they still don't have a superstar, but like, they're. They've got enough guys. Christian Watson played incredibly well, like totally back. The offensive line needs help again. And I just. It is going to be hard to find where they get that. Obviously don't have a first round pick. I think your first Pick is at 52 or something like that. You don't necessarily have. Have a ton of money to throw around. And they're also in a weird spot where it's like they've spent so many resources there recently that I wonder if they just feel stuck, like they have to move forward. Like, you just drafted Jordan Morgan a couple of years ago. He's. He's been struggling for you. You just paid Aaron Banks, who has been not like a disaster, but you probably would have wanted more for what you paid him. And then Anthony Belton, I think, is a little bit all over the place and they're not sure what they're going to get.
- [29:00]
Robert Mays
He was a rookie. I mean, he was playing a bunch of different.
- [29:02]
Tommy Beller
Give him another time.
- [29:03]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I think with that group specifically, if you're looking at where they've invested and who's potentially moving on. Rashid Walker, their free. Their left tackle over the last couple years as a free agent, it seems to me like we might walk in the training camp next year with Jordan Morgan at left tackle, Aaron Banks at left guard, a question mark at center because I'm not sure they can bring Jenkins back at $24 million. And Sean Ryan, who played center for them after Jenkins got hurt, he's also free agent. Anthony Belton at right guard, Zach Thom at right tackle. We just talked about that. Sound good at this point?
- [29:36]
Tommy Beller
Yeah, exactly. I did. That's.
- [29:37]
Robert Mays
That's the point. That might have to be the group that you're working with. And so. And we just talked about the patellar pet tendon thing with Aquanu. Zach Tom has a partially torn patella tendon. And so who knows how quickly he's going to be back. So that's definitely the group on offense where there's concern the pass catchers. Dobbs is a free agent. I think you're likely going to lose him because unless you want to tag him, which is going to be a ton of money, he's going to get paid in Free agency. It's funny that the position that was one of the wastelands in free agency over the last couple years was receiver. And then this year between him and Pierce. Those are two of the most intriguing free agents of the entire class with the way that Dobbs was playing by the end of the season. But I think if you're rolling next year into the season with Watson and the way that he played this year, Golden, Jaden Reed and Tucker Kraft, you're fine. I think that's more than enough at receiver because I do think even if golden didn't really do produce a ton this year, I think you saw enough from him where when you think about like complimentary skill sets with the other two guys, I do think that's actually like a really solid trio to build around, especially when you're going to put Kraft back into the mix.
- [30:46]
Tommy Beller
He's talented, man. Like I, I would wager some of the issues they had with him was just like a coach like Matt LaFleur. I think sometimes with rookies can get a little bit, can just get a little bit hairy. And I figure it was a lot of that. And so hopefully with just a little bit more development going into next year, he is a guy who again, maybe he's not the superstar you want when the packers finally spend a first round picket wide receiver, but I do think that he'll be a nice piece.
- [31:08]
Robert Mays
He was a 22nd pick in the draft.
- [31:10]
Tommy Beller
Yeah, it's not like they spent like the ninth pick on, you know, Jalen Waddle or whoever it was.
- [31:14]
Robert Mays
All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back and talk a little bit about the Jacksonville Jaguars.
- [31:21]
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- [33:56]
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- [34:20]
Derek Classen
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- [34:21]
Tommy Beller
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- [34:29]
Robert Mays
All right, I'm gonna let you start us off here. I want to know where your off season anxieties potentially lie or where your thoughts are right now. As we sit in the end of the 2025 JAG season, I think the.
- [34:42]
Tommy Beller
Word I come to is content. Like I would have liked to see them go further cause I do think that this was a good team and they were playing really, really well. But like I said, fine with how the especially the second half of this year gone and there's going to be a couple of questions to answer. But I said this to you after wild card weekend, I think before we went live on the show, the Jaguars were the only team where I feel the only team who lost. So that we'll talk about today where I feel pretty good about where they're going in 2026 and also did not embarrass themselves this weekend because like the Packers, I still feel fine about where they're going to be in 2026. They were embarrassing. The Eagles will probably be fine in 2026. They were embarrassing. The Panthers were actually not embarrassing. I have a lot of questions about what they're going to be in 2026. Even the Chargers, like they'll probably be fine. They were embarrassing on the Jaguars were truly the only team where it was like you played a good game, you had a good season. Josh Allen was on fire for four quarters and sometimes you just lose a game that way.
- [35:36]
Robert Mays
I don't necessarily disagree. I'm curious where your optimism lies in them being okay in 2026. If you're trying to build me the case for why this team is going to be competitive again next year, where.
- [35:46]
Tommy Beller
Do you think that starts, the offensive line or the offense? The offensive line is actually question I have the offense in general assuming they they so stay relatively healthy. Like I think the continuity there with Cohen, Trevor Lawrence getting another year in the system like they're keeping Jacoby, Myers, Parker Washington will be back for next season. He still has another year on his contract. You've got Brian Thomas Jr. Who hopefully can get a little bit more comfortable in the offense and like get back to what he was as a rookie going into next year. Like even if I've got some questions about what the offensive line was I still think the continuity the firepower on offense I'm there. The defense I have some more questions about and I think some of the numbers over the back half of last season or of this season were they were playing a lot of bad quarterbacks and I still like a lot of what they did schematically and I think they tackle really well. The front I think is still really good secondary especially at corners. Got some questions but part of my opium there is like Travis Hunter will be playing corner next year when when the search.
- [36:40]
Robert Mays
I certainly hope so because here's the thing.
- [36:43]
Tommy Beller
He's where you would play him in the Offense would basically be Parker Washington snaps. I think at this stage this sounds crazy. You cannot take Parker Washington off the field for Travis Hunter. Like, he's a dynamic player, but Parker Washington was really awesome for them. It would be crazy to take him off the field for him.
- [37:00]
Robert Mays
I think part of this is just.
- [37:01]
Tommy Beller
And your biggest hole is corner.
- [37:03]
Robert Mays
That's the reason is that obviously we know that receivers, when you're looking at just the market in general, receivers make a lot more than corners at this point. Receivers are more valuable positions in the way that we reward them in the NFL right now than corners are. But if you look at the makeup of this roster and even if, let's say you traded Brian Thomas Jr. They're very different players. They would play very different roles within the offense. And so even if you wanted to do that, I'm not sure that's enough of a justification that's not enough of a justification to move Travis Hunter back to receiver. So Buster Brown and Greg Newsom are both hitting free agency this offseason and so you have a need at corner and you just drafted a guy who is a, an incredibly talented corner. So just sliding him in there, one of those outside corner spots and rolling with what you have at receiver, I think it makes total sense. Even if though you are going to move Travis Hunter to corner. If I were another team, I'd call BOB Brian Thomas Jr.
- [37:57]
Tommy Beller
I would too. Like, I, I don't know what the deal was this year. I think once they found a little bit of a role for him, I think that they'll be happy that he can be like their field stretching X. But I would at least see what the deal was there and try to, try to see if I could if.
- [38:11]
Robert Mays
I was Buffalo, I, I call the day after the season ends.
- [38:15]
Tommy Beller
Okay. Not that it really matters because they're not in the same division, but can you imagine Buffalo beating your ass and then in the off season they're like, can we take your. You can't let that, you can't let.
- [38:23]
Robert Mays
That affect your decision making. You got to do what's best for the team. I, I'd be, I'll be curious what that looks like. I, I'm pretty sure I land on. Unless I'm blown away. It's worth having him on the team. Like that skill set and what he provides for you there. You need that within the off and that's the best version of that you're going to get. But I would at least call if I were another team because of just how strange this season went. I think the case for optimism is pretty much what you laid out after the buy. After the buy, they were 12th in offensive success rate and 6th in EPA per play. You when you had that team which Kobe Myers with Parker Washington, which Harvard Lawrence getting settled, that offense looked really good on defense they were sixth in defensive success rate in third in EPA per play. Some of that is driven by the competition that they played in the corners. You're not going to create 31 turnovers or 38. You're not going to have 31 takeaways next year most likely. So that's I think part of the pessimistic case, if you wanted to spin it that way. But I think there's a lot to work with here and I'm in the same boat you are. I think the DB room and linebacker too because Devin Lloyd is hitting free agency. I think that's personnel wise the biggest consideration that this team has to address, especially on defense as we head into next year.
- [39:32]
Tommy Beller
It will be like Devin Lloyd paid, played really well this year and he'll get paid by somebody. I think think when you're a linebacker who's really only had like 12 good games for like. I'm not that worried about them losing him. I think I have some amount of faith that they'll be able to replace him. Venture Miller has actually given them a lot a decent like backup snaps. I don't know if he'll be the starter, but doesn't worry me that much. And I also, I think there's an element that might be like, oh well, Anthony Campanile might get hired away to be a head coach. He's great. I really think that he is. I would be shocked if after just this one season he gets hired away. Way like it to only have done it once and not been like a dominant, dominant defense. It would be like kind of shocking that he already gets that, that kind of call.
- [40:12]
Robert Mays
It'd be surprising. I mean I, I feel like in this cycle where there's a lot of just defensive coaches and it seems like kind of a strange year for coaching candidates. I don't necessarily know if I'd be shocked, but I do think it would be surprising if he got a job after one year in terms of resources for this team. It's an interesting team because it's not a typical like year one explosion because they've spent a lot of money. They have negative 7 million DOL cap space as things currently stand like they've handed out a lot of substantial deals that will still be on the books in some capacity next year. Walker Little, Eric Armstead, Foyo Luacan, Josh hines, Allen Patrick McCary, Jordan Lewis. They're eating $40 million in dead money for the Tyson Campbell, Gabe Davis and Darnell Savage contracts. And so they're. It's an expensive team for this to be like the first, this to be their breakout season. Essentially like this idea that oh we can really build on this and this is kind of the first stage of it. The resources don't really align with that. Especially when you consider they don't have a first round pick because the Travis Hunter trade. But they still have four top 100 picks because of the Isaac Tesla trade. So they have two additional third round picks because of that deal. So they have four picks in the top 100. And then over the last few years there is like compared to the Panthers, especially like the Panthers have these two or three draft classes that are just non existent. The Jags made a lot of of like second through fourth round picks over the last few years and even beyond that like Parker Washington was a sixth round pick. Antonio Johnson was a mid round or day two or day three pick.
- [41:43]
Tommy Beller
Jerry Jones last year was a third round pick.
- [41:44]
Robert Mays
Jerry Jones was a third round pick. There are like six to eight guys over the last few drafts that are contributing players to this team. So even if they've spent a decent amount of money in free agency and it's an expensive roster compared to Carolina, like I said, there isn't an underlying level of talent. There is kind of an underlying level of talent to this Jaguars team. Cheap, like cost control talent.
- [42:05]
Tommy Beller
Right. So and again like them. I really hope a lot of those picks go towards the offensive line because I do think part of the problem is one finding offensive linemen, particularly along the interior that you would want to sign in this cycle might be difficult, but they also spent a lot. I mean not a lot a lot. They were mid round or like mid tier contracts but they spent on center and right guard last off season. And so to like dip back into the free agency pool would be hard. I think it would make more sense if like maybe that first third round pick is like an offensive lineman that you just hope wins a camp battle and does something for you. Because I do think that's right.
- [42:37]
Robert Mays
It reminds me a little bit and I don't think they'll be as aggressive in some of the solutions. The same way that this team was what's what Washington did last year where they had El Gretti and Andrew Wy and they Those guys were like year one starters that were kind of like stopgap players. That did not prevent them from using draft capital to try to get to upgrade at those spots. And so they go out, they sign, they draft Josh Connolly in the first round, Wiley gets bumped down a spot. Like if they did that with the left guard in the center this year, I don't think that would necessarily be surprising. McCary's making too much to justify that. He's making like 15 million. But the other interior spots, like, I don't think that's crazy at all. Look, I'm actually curious. Hainsey's making 8 million against the cap next year.
- [43:23]
Tommy Beller
You can, you can move on from that as a starter and not really have much of an issue.
- [43:27]
Robert Mays
If that's just a depth piece for you, I think you can justify that. It's just like he's your swing guy again. That's kind of a similar range to what the Washington guys were making. The one that's probably needs to be addressed in some way. Walker Little has a $15 million cap hit next year and Cole Van Lannen beat him out as you're starting left tackle. And so I would not be surprised if they tried to move on from Little in some capacity. They cannot cut him because they would actually lose cap space. He has $18 million in dead money, but if they traded him, they'd save about $7.5 million in space. And even if he got beat out by Van Land and He has an $11 million base salary for a team that needs like a capable tack and the rotation, I think that's a call worth making. Potentially.
- [44:09]
Tommy Beller
Somebody would give you a very late round draft pick to just like give you a shot at that and free up the money for you.
- [44:15]
Robert Mays
Anything else, Anything else on your mind about this Jags team?
- [44:20]
Tommy Beller
The. The only other player that I don't think we really mentioned in terms of pending free agents is Travis Etienne. Yes, I think they'll be fine if they just let him walk. Like, I think he had a decent season, but I actually really liked what the they got from a couple of their other backs as role players, Bashel Tutin and Laquin Allen. And then I also just think that that's a position that, that for them and for like what ETN gave them. I think it would not be that difficult for them to replace him either with some other cheap free agent running back or spend, you know, third, fourth round pick on a guy like that and try to replace him.
- [44:50]
Robert Mays
What is your confidence level that the 2026 Jags will be as good as.
- [44:54]
Tommy Beller
The 2025 Jags were not that high cause they're going to play a first, first place schedule and I do think again some of the takeaways are going to go away. And like I do think that it's, it's more likely that they end up a team that is likely, like barring some sort of crazy move that they make that gets some superstar in here, which I don't foresee given that they don't have a first round pick to really wield. I imagine they'll probably be like a 9, 10 win team, which is fine, but not quite as exciting as it was this year.
- [45:20]
Robert Mays
I think that's probably where I went to. They lost like 10 total starts from the offensive line this year, which isn't nothing. They were banged up. It was like two games here, two games there. So they were relatively healthy there. They were 6 and 3 in one score games. They were plus 13 in the turnover margin. So there is a chance they take a slight step back. But I think there is justified reasons for optimism when it comes to what the most important pieces of the franchise now look like.
- [45:43]
Tommy Beller
You hope that if the offense is what it was for the last eight weeks, the whole year, that kind of washes away some of the other areas that you might regress. Yeah, I 100% agree.
- [45:52]
Robert Mays
All right, we're going to take one more quick break and then come back and talk about our last two teams.
- [46:00]
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- [46:07]
Robert Mays
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Robert Mays
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Robert Mays
Those were raisins, right?
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- [48:27]
Robert Mays
The Philadelphia Eagles I feel like we don't have to spend a ton of time on this one because we did more of it on the recap show than we did with some of the other teams because to me it's just not that complicated. Like this is the simplest one to me when it comes to the off season. Question that questions that need to be answered about the Eagles. I don't know if you agree.
- [48:46]
Tommy Beller
No, I'm pretty clear about what they need to do. Even some of the pending free agents. It's just like I have a pretty good idea of who you should let walk and who you should try to keep in the building. Jalen Phillips Given what you traded for him and how insanely good he was for you when you got him, I think you absolutely have to keep him. The other role players on the defense, like Reed Blankenship has been really nice for them. You can probably let him walk and replace him. Nicobi Dean I know he's really fun and like an awesome blitzer. You just drafted Jahad Campbell. You can probably just let Nakoby Dean walk like Fred Johnson. Like I know he's been decent for them as like a swing tackle, backup tackle. You're the Eagles. Like you run an offensive line factory. You can probably let him go. Like I think a lot of the choices that they have to make here are pretty simple really. The only complicated one is like there's clearly a rift between A.J. brown, the quarterback, all that stuff going on. You just can't really move A.J. brown this year. They can actually do it fairly easily after this year, and it's not going to really kill them. But this offseason does make it pretty difficult.
- [49:38]
Robert Mays
He has four. It's a $44 million dead cap if he's traded before June 1st, and so you'd have to trade him after June 1st for it to be palatable financially. Whether that's what they want, they have the appetite for that and they feel like it's something they need to do. I can't speak to that. A.J. brown is a really good player and I think I'd rather just try to fix the ecosystem offensively before I traded A.J. brown. Right now they have four top 100 picks because they. I'm curious where that one came from. They have a third round pick from the jets, which is just one of my favorite things about the Eagles. Every single off season is looking at the picks they have and they're like, I wonder where that one came from.
- [50:10]
Tommy Beller
Who did they steal that one from?
- [50:12]
Robert Mays
Let's look at this. I want to find out the answer to it because I think it'd probably be a. It'd be fun to know. Oh, the Hassan Reddick trade.
- [50:22]
Tommy Beller
Oh my God, that's very Eagles to get that back into. Reddick is on neither of those teams now, by the way.
- [50:29]
Robert Mays
So because of the Hassan Reddick trade, the Eagles have the 68th pick in the draft. So it's not even just that it's a third round pick. It is the fourth.
- [50:37]
Tommy Beller
68 is pretty good.
- [50:38]
Robert Mays
It is the fourth pick of the third round that the Eagles now have in the Hassan Reddit trade, which is just wonderful. And, and they gave up the 87th pick in the Jalen Phillips trade.
- [50:50]
Tommy Beller
That's good business. That's real good business.
- [50:53]
Robert Mays
That's. They, they, they typically do a lot of this.
- [50:55]
Tommy Beller
And so that's the other thing that makes this not very complicated. It's like in terms of the money decisions that they have to make, you know, where it's going to go in terms of like Jalen Phillips and, and where it's not going to go.
- [51:03]
Robert Mays
I don't know if it's going to go to Jalen Phillips necessarily. I think I would.
- [51:06]
Tommy Beller
Right.
- [51:07]
Robert Mays
I think this, he should be this year's version of what they did with Bond, where maybe he wasn't in your plans originally, but he's played well enough within the defense that think you could justify bringing him back 100%.
- [51:16]
Tommy Beller
So like, at least in my mind, that's where it would go. And then there Are some of these other teams where the Jaguars. The draft gets complicated because you don't have a first round pick or whatever. The Eagles are going to have their first round pick and like you said, three other top 100 picks. They have all the resources to be good again, assuming they just get offensive coordinator back to a competent level, somebody who's done it before. This team, if they can fix the vibes a little bit and get AJ Brown happy, this team will win. Like they'll walk to 11 wins next week.
- [51:42]
Robert Mays
Year offensive coordinator is going to be the biggest question. We know that and my assumption is it'll be somebody who's called plays before the exact same way they did it with Kellen Moore, the name that I keep coming back to just because he's available in this cycle. He's shown an ability to do this before with a talented roster and with a talented quarterback. Specifically, they hire a guy like Brian Dabel. You have Brian Dabel and Vic Fangio heading into next year. You have this roster back. Again, I just don't. Again, I don't just. I don't know how much more complicated it is than that.
- [52:10]
Tommy Beller
And it's funny. You, you actually posed this to me before the show. I recoile hearing the name Brian Dable just because of how weird the last couple of years with the Giants have been. But we have seen him have success with this like style of quarterback before. One he literally did it in college with Jalen Hurts when they were at Alabama. And then I think just in terms of like overall physical skill set, you can make a good case that what both Daniel Jones and Jackson Dart are is like not that dissimilar from Jalen Hurts just in terms of some of the throws they like to make, physical ability, some of the rushing capabilities, all that stuff. Like I, if, if Brian D. Can get them back to C plus play calling, which is really all that it takes, I, they'll probably be fine.
- [52:51]
Robert Mays
I totally agree. We said it last night on the show. I just think it's about clearing a certain bar of competency and I think Brian Dable clears that bar of competency. And so trying to go out and get somebody like that, I don't think Sirianni should lose his job. Like, but this cycle of go to the super bowl or crash out. Go to the super bowl or crash out every single year is pretty maddening if you were to root for this team. But I don't think it frustrating enough for you to be considering that sort of change in this moment.
- [53:19]
Tommy Beller
Yeah, I again you have to have two years in a row like that where it really starts to.
- [53:24]
Robert Mays
And if they do have two years in a row, we will have that conversation. I think. I think the Eagles will probably be ready to have that conversation if it doesn't come together next year. The personnel stuff, you mentioned this a little bit. Blankenship's a free agent, so I think that's something you potentially may need to address. You have Makuba coming back from injury this year, but I'm not sure there's another guy in the safety pipeline on that team. Like are we going to roll into next season with Sidney Brown as a starter? Probably not, right? So that's an area that probably needs to be addressed. And then they need to do something to upgrade that other outside corner spot, whether that's in the draft, whether that's in free agency, like that should be a priority this off season. And then the other spot that I think is something they should consider when it comes to where they're spending their resources this year. It's probably time to start committing some like real draft sources to the resources to the offensive line again for in two spots like Lane's going to be 36 in May and he's been healthier in recent years. But I think it's worth protecting yourself there, like trying to figure out the heir apparent to him at tackle and giving yourself like a solid, talented option as your swing tackle. If they drafted a tackle in the first round next year, I don't think that would be shocking.
- [54:30]
Tommy Beller
No, I don't think that would be crazy at all. Like this is a team that has consistently been like you plan a little bit ahead. Them in Dallas, I think have always done a really good job of even planning ahead at off offensive line when they have to. If they spent a first round pick on it again because they're in the luxury of it would be nice if their first round pick played for them next year. The roster is so good that they kind of can burn a red shirt here on like a first round tackle that you're trying to get ready behind Lane Johnson. If you had.
- [54:55]
Robert Mays
I don't think that's a misallocation of resources whatsoever.
- [54:57]
Tommy Beller
Or honestly, if they really wanted to just play, play him at right guard this upcoming season. Because I think if they replaced Tyler Steen this off season it wouldn't be that crazy.
- [55:04]
Robert Mays
And that was the next thing I was going to say. Probably trying to find. Probably time to try to find another right guard somewhere through the draft, like with a potential like a day to pick like a second round pick a third round pick that spot and getting better at that spot and trying to reestablish like a truly dominant offensive line all the way across the board so you can hopefully get back to the way you were running the ball a couple years ago. I think that should be near the top of your priority list. Last one here, the Los Angeles Chargers. I think we have to start with what is kind of newsy right like so after the game, Jim Harbaugh was asked about whether he thinks Greg Roman should be the offensive coordinator, whether that he should be back. And he essentially said in the moment I don't have an answer to that right now. He wouldn't commit to it. And I feel like that was his answer to a lot of stuff afterwards. But if that's your response when somebody asks you if your offensive coordinator is going to be back, seems like it's something that's worth paying attention to.
- [55:54]
Tommy Beller
The answer is probably that he's gone. And ultimately this, I've seen people making these jokes about this like on Blue sky or whatever. Ultimately every Harbaugh regime comes to a point where Greg rose and you run out of road with what it could be. And I do think like the Greg Roman offense has a lot of issues that was also compounded by how bad and banged up the offensive line was. But we've, we've known and we've seen with his offenses that he I think struggles to come up with answers when he's got like one hand tied behind his back. And I think that's ultimately where they landed in this playoff game where they got thoroughly out coached in that game for the New England Patriots. Who, who's on a, who was on a backup defensive coordinator effectively like Zach Kerr was not supposed to be their play caller coming into this year.
- [56:36]
Robert Mays
The injuries are the injuries for the Chargers offensive line, but the linemen that they came into the season with that were healthy did not play well.
- [56:43]
Tommy Beller
It was failed you. It was Milton Williams in the backfield all game against your starting guard.
- [56:47]
Robert Mays
The interior all season was a massive problem and I feel like if you watch that group, their inability to pick up stunts some of the protection stuff. That is a t there is, there are talent issues with the Chargers offensive line and when you're playing with second, third, fourth string tackles, you are going to notice that. But you don't want to absolve the coaching staff and just say oh, the group was hurt like it doesn't matter. There was not a well orchestrated offense independent of the offensive line injuries. And so if they think that we reach that point in the Harbaugh life cycle, that it's time to move on and go somewhere else. I get that. And like, does Herbert get the same Todd Monk and type boost that Lamar got? And I feel like if he does, I'll be curious to see what that version of the offense looks like.
- [57:30]
Tommy Beller
I really hope so, man. And we came this, none of this is like revisionist history on our part. We came into this off season being like, this interior is not good enough. Like, Zion Johnson, I think, has been really up and down for them for a lot of his career. And then Bradley Boseman I thought was questionable for them to continue with him. And then they tried to like flip flop those two in camp. They bring in Andre James for like extra help at the center spot, like they were trying to shuffle around that interior ultimately landed like where they were before and put in Becton at right guard. Who? The Becton one. It's like, okay, you get it. He's, you know, finally looked like he found a little bit of life in Phil, really. You're running a scheme that theoretically could fit some of his strengths, but then he just kind of flames out and doesn't really do anything for you. Like a lot of the bets that they made and a lot of what they were trying to do process wise on the interior, just none of it came to fruition.
- [58:18]
Robert Mays
I feel like this is one of those moments where, all right, you tried to do it the cheap way. No more half measures. Like, you have $103 million in cap space this year. Is it worth just saying we're going to go out and get two new starters on the interior. Joe Walt's going to be back next season, right? Joe Alt has said he, he said today that his ankle injury was as like layered and multifaceted as it could have been. He said, I think the exact quote was, everything that you could do to an ankle, I did. But I think it's like a four to five month recovery process. He should be ready for the season. Rashauna Slater is yet another offensive tackle that's going to be coming back from that torn Patel injury and we'll see what his return timeline looks like. But that happened in training camp. And so optimistically, maybe he's ready for the beginning of this season. So. So you have both your tackles back. I'm fine rolling with Becton again as your right guard. Like, you've committed to him. He signed a two year deal.
- [59:05]
Tommy Beller
That's. What are you going to do.
- [59:07]
Robert Mays
If he's going to be your right guard next year, that's fine. Those two other spots, you have $103 million in cap space. This is the team where just throw some money at Tyler Linderbaum, throw some money at David Edwards. Use that money to kind of leave no doubt about the talent level of your offensive line. Because if you can do that and if you can hire a staff or an offensive coordinator that can give you a better protection plan and not consistently get picked on all year, you have a talent personnel solution up front. You have a schematic solution up front. I'm fine with the current collection of pass catchers. Like, I'm fine with that group. I'm not sure you need to go out and do anything drastic there.
- [59:44]
Tommy Beller
It would look better if the quarterback was not under siege.
- [59:46]
Robert Mays
Yes.
- [59:47]
Tommy Beller
Every single snap. And I'm not sure it would. You know, anyone would ever put it in the top 10 pass catching groups in the league or anything. But I think when Justin Herbert is your quarterback, it doesn't need to be that. It just needs to be like, fine, and have a couple of guys who can play a couple of different roles and just not have him killed in the pocket.
- [60:03]
Robert Mays
If you want to draft another receiver in the second round and because Keenan Allen's getting older, you're probably going to move on from him. And it's McConkey, Trey Harris, Quentin Johnston, and then you're adding a little bit of competition to that group with Gadsden. That's fine to me. Like, I think that is a reasonable offense personnel wise, especially if you're going to swap out the offensive coordinator and start over systematically. So. So that's where I would use a decent chunk of the free agent money. The other spot that needs to be addressed just in terms of the roster, the defensive front. So many of these guys are hitting free agency. Chlo Mack is a free agent, Tyer Tart is a free agent, Deshaun Hand is a free agent, and Odafe Away is a free agent. So I would assume some of that money is potentially going to go to retaining a couple of those guys. Like, Taylor Tartt was awesome for them this year. And so I think you'd have a hard time replacing a guy like Terrier Tartt with a cheaper option or some sort of draft pick. Ow. It was really good for them. He's a young player. So how they spend that money and who they want, who they choose to bring back, I'll be really curious what that looks like.
- [61:00]
Tommy Beller
I will, too. Cause Honestly, I think all those guys play well. Like Sean Han was actually pretty good for them, I thought as a run defender this year, obviously Tiger Tart was incredible. Cleo Mack is not, you know, 2022 Cleo Mack, but he's still pretty damn good and was like a really, really good run defender which especially for the way you're trying to play defense I actually think is incredibly valuable. So I do think the front needs to get fixed and then I would still. They have the weirdest outside cornerback room in.
- [61:25]
Robert Mays
Oh, that's the other spot in the league.
- [61:27]
Tommy Beller
Like I, I like Camhart for what he is. If you could get somebody better, that would probably be great.
- [61:34]
Robert Mays
Like Cam Heart is a depth piece fine. But think you need to go out and really commit to that this year. That Zach is exactly what I wrote in my notes. In terms of what they might need.
- [61:42]
Tommy Beller
To do a corner that's pretty nails like if he has to play. And there are certain matchups where he's great as a, as a 17 week starter.
- [61:49]
Robert Mays
You.
- [61:50]
Tommy Beller
There are some games and sometimes where you're like, we wish we had somebody else out here.
- [61:53]
Robert Mays
The offensive line and corner specifically are two positions where they were like, all right, let's see if we can tinker and figure it out. It didn't work. Okay. Let's bring a little bit more of a hammer into this off season and see if you can get some more expensive solutions there. I think that's totally fine.
- [62:06]
Tommy Beller
I actually will say to go back to the offense a little bit quickly. Obviously offensive line is the big thing they need to solve. I would like a little bit more help at tight end. I actually think if they could get guys to who are stronger role players at that position. Like, this isn't a hit on Gadson. I actually think he's a nice young player.
- [62:21]
Robert Mays
He is what he is.
- [62:22]
Tommy Beller
Right? Exactly. He is what he is.
- [62:23]
Robert Mays
He's a pass catcher.
- [62:24]
Tommy Beller
Exactly. I would like a little bit more of a full tight end room, especially for the way that I think even when they change the offensive coordinator, I assume like multiple tight end sets are still going to be part of the way they run this thing. It's a Jim Harbaugh team.
- [62:35]
Robert Mays
Well, it's funny, we were talking about this during the game yesterday and how the Chargers have the stoutest group of skill position players in the league. Like the Tucker Fists and Scott Matlock snaps that we get on that side of the ball. Like, not sure we need that many more of those.
- [62:50]
Tommy Beller
Yeah, no, I think we're kind of.
- [62:51]
Robert Mays
Done with that two other big questions for me or just two other conversations as it relates to this team. What hurts even worse than bottoming out and potentially needing a new offensive coordinator is that it seems like there's a real chance you're losing the coordinator of the unit that got you here. So far Jesse Mater has requests from at least three teams that I saw, the Titans, the Browns and the Ravens for their head coaching. And I feel like he is a very strong candidate to get one of those jobs. He has done an exceptional, he's done exceptional work over the last couple years and I thought that he was really, really, really good this season. And so if you lose him then you're having to replace what has been like probably a top five defensive coordinator over the last couple years. Steve Clankscales, who's their clank scale is their defensive backs coach. He was I think Minters co defensive coordinator at Michigan and so they do have somebody that they could probably promote into that job. But we, who knows. Yeah, I mean Jesse mentor did such a good job over the last couple of seasons that there is a very real chance that schematically you take a step back on defense and that is the best thing about what your team has been over the last couple years.
- [63:59]
Tommy Beller
And again like we talked about when you're changing defensive coordinator specifically there's usually a one year buffer period before you get to whatever your best self is going to be. And so even if they promote within, you're still trying to figure out the ins and outs of like okay, when do I call stuff, how do I layer some of my pressures and stuff like that. And so you have that element of it if they promote within. And then I do think Jim Harbaugh is obviously well connected enough. It's consistently hired really good coordinators that he could find somebody else like if you know the Titans let like if Denard Wilson is on the market like somebody like that, like they could totally find another answer. But Jesse Minter really outside of like a couple of the clear guys at the very top, like Mike McDonald was as good as it gets as a defensive play caller.
- [64:40]
Robert Mays
The last thing I feel like we should talk about before we move on with this team is just another just playoff disappointment from the quarterback. I don't want to ignore that. And I went back and I watched that game again this morning and when you go back and you watch a game after having watched it in real time, often you come away with different opinions or conclusions. It's like oh, actually going back and rewatching it this is how I see it. I kind of feel the same way now that I did after watching it in real time time. Like this idea that they were out schemed top to bottom on that side of the ball. The offensive line still didn't play well. There were probably five to seven plays to be made by the quarterback in that game that he did not make. And he deserves to be criticized for that because if you're going to be one of the guys, you need to be able to transcend a lack of help on that side of the ball. I was way more disappointed in the way he played in this game than in the game last year against the Texans in the playoffs.
- [65:39]
Tommy Beller
At least that game he was like.
- [65:40]
Robert Mays
Trying that systemic collapse last year against the Tech against the Texans, they got out coached in this game. This was not a systemic collapse. He played way worse in my opinion, in this game than he did against the Texans last year. And that's extremely disappointing. Like, if you're going to be one of the guys, you should be able to transcend what's happening around you more than he was able to yesterday.
- [66:03]
Tommy Beller
I, I 100% agree. And I will say, like, I don't think that there are many guys who could have transcended how bad it was, but it's not like he needed to transcend it and score 30 points.
- [66:12]
Robert Mays
He needed 17 points.
- [66:13]
Tommy Beller
Yes, exactly. Like that was the type of game that he was playing and he ultimately struggled to do that. Like I, it's, it's such a tricky conversation too, because it's like, I think the biggest issues that Herbert had in this game were one, he was not seeing it well whenever he came off his first read in particular, and he was not accurate. Herbert's entire career will tell you those are not issues. But ultimately you get to this game, you're pressured. I think I was looking this up. He was pressured like almost 57% of the time, which is the highest pressure rate in the game over the last two years. But still he's had moments this year where he could overcome that against better defenses like the Philadelphia Eagles. And in this game he just, he kind of had nothing.
- [66:50]
Robert Mays
And that's it. This, you're right in that it is a tricky conversation because I can understand if you're somebody who is a Justin Herbert skeptic and you look at this game and be like, well, why does he keep playing his worst football in the playoffs? And I'm somebody that, and I've said this over and over and over again, like, I don't Think how a quarterback season ends should discount everything that came before it.
- [67:12]
Tommy Beller
They shouldn't have been in the playoffs if not for how well he played for a lot of the season.
- [67:15]
Sponsor Voice 2
Yes.
- [67:16]
Robert Mays
And so I don't think it should discount everything else that happened this season. But at the same time, like if you are going to be one of the best quarterbacks in the league, you cannot consistently be having your worst performances in the playoffs. And that's exactly what's, that's exactly what's been happening. I don't go, I wouldn't go as far as to say like the playoff bone in his body doesn't function. Like, I just don't know if that's the thing. But if this continues to happen, then I don't know what other reasonable conclusion you can reach other than he just doesn't have it in these moments, which is not a place I typically go. But if you keep stacking these up then I don't know where else you're going to be able to land right.
- [67:53]
Tommy Beller
At a certain point if it happens, if it ends up happening like six or seven times and it's like, okay, this, this does start to become a problem, I'm still willing to, especially the last to explain them away to some degree given how bad the offensive line was. But again, I'm just, I would have liked to have seen him play better in that game because there were some.
- [68:10]
Robert Mays
Chances it was a disappointing performance. And again I come back to the same place I was at last night. I think that he's almost overcompensated for my frustrations with Justin Herbert in the early parts of his career. And that's what's funny is that I think that the criticisms of what he was last night are very, very different than the criticisms of what he was early in his care early in his career. My frustrations with Justin Herbert were he was like a risk averse robot.
- [68:36]
Tommy Beller
He was like Derek Carr. Ish.
- [68:38]
Robert Mays
That's that. And so watching what he was last night, we need something in the middle of those two things. Like we need something where he is taking chances and he's trying to be the best player on the field, but he's not doing that at the expense of making the right decisions. And that's what was happening last night where he's just going into hero mode so quickly that when there are opportunities to be made within structure, he's not making those opportunities opportunities. But that's so far removed from what his shortcomings were even like two years ago that I don't think this is some, like, continuation of the problems that Justin Herbert has had in the past. It's been like a moving target as to what is negatively affecting him.
- [69:18]
Tommy Beller
And that's kind of the thing too is like, you just hope that him going so far outside of himself over the last two years, especially like, as a scrambler and as a runner, you hope that that finds its middle ground somewhere. You hope that it finds its level especially. And I do think that there will be a higher chance that it does find his level if he's not getting killed every. Like, if, if the pass protection gets to 20th best in the league and he doesn't feel as frantic as he did in some of these moments, then maybe he does start to like, settle to a point where, okay, I can take some of these shots where I need them. Some of these other times I just don't have to do that. But it is frustrating that he's oscillated between these games and these letdowns where early in his career was not doing enough despite the talent to these moments where it's like, buddy, we, we need to like, settle down a bit. Little, little bit.
- [70:01]
Robert Mays
And you hope that a system, a coordinator that instill and, and pass protection that instills a certain level of trust can get you to a place where you find that middle ground. And I'm not trying to make excuses like, this is, this is tough. This is a tough place to land. If you're somebody that believes in him.
- [70:19]
Tommy Beller
Of as someone who also believes in him. This is probably the most frustrating one of his losses that I've watched. Because, because even, like, you know, we can say whatever we want about how he played in the second half of the loss against the Chargers. That is a defensive letdown.
- [70:33]
Robert Mays
Like Jaguars.
- [70:33]
Tommy Beller
Yeah, that is a defensive letdown. And then the Texans game is just like, you are flatly outgunned. You were not systemic failure. Yes, yes. Like you were simply outgunned in that game, the Patriots game. You can argue because the offensive line is still so bad that it's a very difficult position to be in. But that's not like a world beating Patriots team. Like, they came out with a good game plan, but that is not like a world beating talent front that you just lost to.
- [70:57]
Robert Mays
In my opinion, of the three playoff losses, this is easily the one one which he was most culpable for.
- [71:02]
Tommy Beller
Yes.
- [71:02]
Robert Mays
And I think people would look at the. How many interceptions do you throw against Texas? Yeah. And they'd be like, that's a crazy thing to say. I, I to me, it's not even like, it's not even close. Like I'm way more frustrated and disappointed in the way he played last night than I am with the way he played in that Texas game last year.
- [71:18]
Tommy Beller
He wasn't putting throws anywhere near his receiver, let alone dbs. Like the the ball just wasn't even in the area to be picked off.
- [71:25]
Robert Mays
The offense could not function against the Texans last year. They could function last night. They just didn't. And he deserved deserves a chunk of the blame for that. All right, that is all we've got for today. I think right now in your podcast feed, our recap from last night's game between the Texans and the Steelers should be available for you. So if you have not listened to that already, encourage you to go check that out. We'll be having a bunch more shows coming your way this week on the feed. Building the Beast will be in its normal spot on Wednesday. I will be back on Thursday recapping the latest coaching news. We had to do that again. I mean, there's no way that we could just bypass all of the coaching cycle stuff because so much stuff has happened since we did our initial check in on Black Monday. Mike McDaniel was fired. Jim John Harbaugh was fired. So Kevin Stefanski is interviewed for a bunch of these jobs. John Harbaugh seems like he might be trending toward being the Giants coach. There's just a bunch of stuff that we're going to have to hit and so that's going to be your way on Thursday. And then once again this week week, we're going to be breaking our divisional preview into two separate shows. One for Saturday, one for Sunday. So a ton more coming your guys way over the next five days or so. For now, that's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. Talk to you very soon. If you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted.
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