← The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
Saturday Recap: Rams and Bears Leave With Clutch Wins
01:02:45
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- [00:00]
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Robert Mays
Can I make my sight firmer?
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Derek Classen
Can we sleep cooler?
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- [01:03]
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- [01:55]
Robert Mays
Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. That was one heck of a day of football. We're recording this. I'm recording this intro after we just did a live reaction to Bears, packers and Rams Panthers. I'm doing a little bit better now than I was at the beginning of that show. I mean, just an unbelievable night. Just an unbelievable night. I still can't believe that happened. It just seemed like it was over halfway through that game and somehow the Bears claw their way back. An insane football game. We dug into all of it with me, Dave Hellman and Derek Classen. And then the first game today was excellent. Panthers are 10 and a half point underdogs they give the Rams all they can stand in that one. So just an amazing opening.
- [02:38]
Ayo Akemolere
We.
- [02:38]
Robert Mays
Opening night and opening day of the NFL playoffs in the wild card round. Everything you could ask for, for guys sitting in our chairs, we had one heck of a time on this. So let's get to it right now. I don't even. I don't even know what to say. That was one of the craziest things independent of my personal investment in that game. Just one of the craziest football games I have ever seen in my entire life.
- [03:09]
Derek Classen
All anyone wants out of playoff football, unless, like, again, like, all you want is for your heart to be bumping at the end of it. I don't really care about either. Like, I'm not a fan of either of these teams. And my heart was going for the last. Like, once we got inside the two minute, I was like, oh, my God.
- [03:24]
Dave Hellman
We saw this on the horizon like, six weeks ago. Bears, packers in the playoffs. And.
- [03:29]
Robert Mays
But I didn't see it on the horizon at the end of the first half. Well, I thought this was gone.
- [03:34]
Dave Hellman
That is a. That's worth pointing out. But just for a game that we had five, six weeks to joke about, to be even dumber than our wildest dreams, it just. It was so good. And it speaks to who the Bears have been this season. Of course they came back. Of course, a dozen ridiculous things happened. Of course they left it till the final seconds. And you're right, Derek, I'm not invested in this. But by the final minute and. And I'll. I'll say I picked the packers to win this game. I did it at the live show in front of a room full of Bears fans. By the final 20 seconds of this game, I was just like, come on, Chicago, do this for Ma. He's going through it right now.
- [04:15]
Robert Mays
It was.
- [04:16]
Dave Hellman
It was. It was hard to watch, like, in a good way. But, like, I. By the end of this game, I was like, they gotta get this for Robert. I can't. I can't go on the. After the Bears rip his heart out, it's going to be too hard.
- [04:27]
Robert Mays
If it had happened, I would have been okay. Like, I want you guys to know that. I would have sat down in this chair and we would have talked about the game in that way. I absolutely would have. I. But for it to end that way, in the way that it did, I mean, I. I don't even know where to start. Like, it to me obvious in my. In my mind, if I'm going to sit back here And I'm going to look back on this game two weeks from now, a month from now, a year from now, that fourth and eighth throw to Roma Dunze saves the game. I mean it's, it is one of the. I hope that we talk about that play in a long and excellent career for Caleb Williams. He was all over the place tonight and we can get into that. The Bears offense was all over the place tonight. The Bears were all over the place tonight. But that play, fourth and eight with the game on the line rolling to his left, not even just to get that throw off, but the placement on that throw has to be perfect in order for that to work. He drops it in, they go down and score and then we're off to the races. We finally have a game again and the Bears ultimately win it. But I mean that's the play that, that is the play that I will come back to when I think about this game.
- [05:29]
Derek Classen
And that one I think to me really speaks to his arm talent because even the guys that are really good throwing left, it's a lot of like you're throwing left and then you get to just like drive that thing in there. He had, he like jumped past like fallbacks. He's like shooting a three point shot.
- [05:44]
Dave Hellman
It's.
- [05:46]
Derek Classen
It's special like when it's, it's unbelievable.
- [05:48]
Dave Hellman
Outside of Josh Allen, like obviously there are, there are super mutants like Josh and Lamar and, and maybe Mahomes who could get away from Isaiah McDuffie. But Isaiah McDuffie was all over him. Like he came, he looped around and came up the middle and a lesser athlete gets sacked there and it looks, or, or at the very least just throws a stupid ball that never has a shot. Like to evade that and make that throw. It was, I mean I would put that on a short list of throws of the year like if we're considering the regular season. That was disgusting.
- [06:20]
Robert Mays
I can hear people outside. This is, this is like a cool moment.
- [06:24]
Dave Hellman
They're like horns going off.
- [06:26]
Robert Mays
What the city feels like tonight just outside these windows because I, I assume it's just an absolute scene out there. And so they. The completion of a dunes day and they keep that drive going. The next play. The check down to Bonung guy that gets him down inside the 10 on that drive is also just a really good process play. And then he hits Oz. They put him one on one with Walker from the slot on that play where he scores the touchdown. He cooks Walker on that play and.
- [06:50]
Derek Classen
That was a good design too. They had Loveland Sitting as like a little wing tight end there and they like fast motioned him out right before the snap. And Quay Walker's like, oh, flat. He sees like flashing signs. He's like, oh, ball's going out there and he gets a little stuck and he moves a little bit more over than he should and then gives Zacchaeus like a really easy shot to just run across his face.
- [07:07]
Dave Hellman
Kind of a full circle moment in my opinion because. And Edger and Cooper got hurt late in this, late in the second half, which I think is a big moment. But Quay Walker and Edger and Cooper were bossing this game for a lot of it. And I can go back, I bet I could find three other snaps where they looked for somebody over the middle and Quay Walker was just all over it. So for them to answer with a play that kind of got him out of sorts and froze him enough for an easy touchdown, it was, it was a cool moment because he had been a pain in the ass for them for a lot of this game.
- [07:37]
Robert Mays
It's an important thing to mention that, that Jon Cooper injury because on the two point play the Bears come out in jumbo and then they break it apart and Colson Loveland is one on one with Nick Niemann on the outside because Edron Cooper is not in there in base defense. And for the Bears to scheme up a one on one isolation play for the 21 year old tight end with the season on the line warms my heart. Packers come back out, they get to a place where they can delay a game, makes a third and 15 on that next drive and then McManus misses the field goal. So now you're in a spot where if the Bears go down and score a touchdown, they go up four and they go all the way down. And the. We were actually there was part of me that when they scored the touchdown on the fake screen to DJ Moore, which is a great design, right? If you're trying to score a touchdown, it's a great design. But I said it to Dave. As soon as they score that touchdown to go up 31, 27, there's a minute and 43 seconds left in the game. Packers still have a timeout. I'm like, I'm terrified that they left them too much time. I'm just terrified that they left them too much time and ultimately they did not.
- [08:35]
Dave Hellman
I'll go as far as to say I hated it. And I know they won. They won the game and the packers ran out of time and it's fine. But I. We've Talked about this many times over the course of the season. Like, I think time management has to be a part of that in endgame scenarios. And I just, I wouldn't have taken the shot right there. I'm trying to get another 20, 30 seconds off the clock and make it that much harder or at the very least get Matt LaFleur to burn a timeout to keep time on the clock. It worked out, it's fine. But I'm trying to manage that in such a way where maybe the packers aren't throwing into the end zone on the final play.
- [09:09]
Derek Classen
I love Ben Jones. Go for the throw, man. Like I'm. I am.
- [09:12]
Dave Hellman
I think Ben Johnson tried like he. And maybe, I guess maybe he would.
- [09:17]
Derek Classen
Call that if he cares about the clock.
- [09:18]
Robert Mays
Well, I was.
- [09:19]
Dave Hellman
Maybe he learned his lesson from the first game because remember, like they left it until the very end in the game that they lost. It's done that a couple times. Yeah.
- [09:26]
Robert Mays
In the Niner game too where he bled a little bit too much time down. You could argue. So maybe he said to a tough spot.
- [09:31]
Dave Hellman
He said touchdown over everything maybe.
- [09:34]
Robert Mays
And that's to have that be all that matters.
- [09:35]
Derek Classen
I think in that moment, if the score is going to tie the game or put you up by three or less, where a field goal does something for Green Bay, I can get trying to kill as much time as possible here. When they have to get into the end zone, take the points whenever you can get them. In my opinion, like that's kind of how I would rather operate the other.
- [09:52]
Robert Mays
Kind of game management moment. And like the mechanics and the TikTok of how that last couple minutes went, I said it in the moment the packers call timeout with 2:07 left right before the 2 minute warning. And I was kind of shocked. I was like, what, what are you trying to get with that timeout? Like. Because I'm assuming the Bears are going to try to potentially run the ball here to get it to the two minute warning. You save yourself seven seconds. If they score a touchdown here, you're going to need every single clock stoppage you can get in order to try to get yourself down in range to score a touchdown. And that leaves them with one timeout. And so that was just one of the other moments in that final two minutes that I think is probably going to be forgotten. But I was just. I couldn't believe that they called the time out there.
- [10:32]
Dave Hellman
We had the closest thing you could describe to an argument that we've had all season in that sequence where Derek and I were trying to rationalize what Green Bay might be doing. I feel a lot less confident that there was any strategy behind it. After watching Green Bay take a delay of game coming out of a timeout in. When they had the ball on offense, that was.
- [10:52]
Derek Classen
Listen, if. If people. If Green Bay fans are like extremely mad at the coaching staff in this game, that's the moment the having the timeout because you can't get everything set and then you come out with the delay game when again, like. Like the. The. Imagine having an extra time out on their extra like at. On their final drive, which. And they could have totally changed the complexion.
- [11:10]
Robert Mays
That's how I was shocked that they called it.
- [11:12]
Derek Classen
Yeah.
- [11:12]
Robert Mays
I just don't understand the benefit of the time out there when there is a very reasonable chance. You need that timeout desperately. Desperately on the final drive when you're scoring, trying to score a touchdown. All right, that's the TikTok. And like how we got to the end. Let's pull back and just discuss the arc of this game and just how crazy it is that we're even in this position. I the first thing I'll say about this Bears team, even if they had lost and I told you guys this in real time, so this is not revisionist history. I was saying this in the moment in the second half. The fact that they came out the way that they did in the second half was so heartening to me because even if they've ultimately fell short, the idea of going into this off season having gotten blown out 35 to 12 by this team and no showed this game in the playoffs, I think would have been hard to stomach. And so watching them play the way that they did, especially defensively in the second half, I'm not surprised because that's what they've been all year. Like, they've kept coming and coming and coming, and I think they've showed a lot of mental toughness and resilience, even if they've gotten a bit lucky very often. And so watching that happen was incredibly encouraging. And then ultimately they do it enough and they get enough stops on defense and they create enough pressure. And I think that the blitz heavy plan early on from Dennis Allen in the second half, essentially saying we're not going down unless we're swinging was the right move. And to watch that work for the Bears to keep putting them in these positions and then they blow four opportunities. I lost my mind when they threw the ball on that fourth and one down in the red zone. Oh, my God. I can't Remember the exact score when that happened? I think it was the 21 to 6 when that happened.
- [12:45]
Dave Hellman
That happened so far from the end of the game that it wasn't even on my mind at this point.
- [12:50]
Robert Mays
I was losing my mind when that happened. Because at that point, that was one of the ten times in this game. I was like, well, it's over. Like, they screwed that. They blew that opportunity. Now it's over.
- [13:00]
Dave Hellman
21 to 6 with three and then 3:18 to play in the third quarter.
- [13:04]
Robert Mays
That was a huge missed opportunity. And the fact that ultimately every single one of those missed opportunities they had in this game doesn't end up mattering is insane.
- [13:12]
Dave Hellman
You know what? I love that too, because, like, how many times have we sat down at this desk after a Bears game and you're like, I love that they battled back. I love that they didn't just pack it in. Like, we've been saying that since week three, probably. And the funny part is they had so many Bears bullshit opportunities at like the fumbled kick return, the fumbled offensive lineman catch.
- [13:36]
Robert Mays
Like they had in real time when he was running with the ball. You guys heard me. I was like, strip the football.
- [13:42]
Dave Hellman
They had like Kyler Gordon. I mean, ironically, Kyler gave it wouldn't. It didn't matter. But Kyler Gordon dropped an interception on the final snap of the game. Like, they had so many of those, you know, wide variance column luck plays that they. They've been so good at that all year. And it all broke against them in this game and they still won. And that's during, like, when it looked like Green Bay was going to win this game several times. I was like, oh, I guess this is what happens when the bounce doesn't land in Kevin Byard's arms or you don't get the fumbled kick return. And to find a way to get this done without any of those things breaking in your favor is pretty remarkable.
- [14:21]
Robert Mays
This Bear, it was a Bears offensive performance in ways both good and bad. That's. There's some nuance to that. The passing game was what you've come to expect from the Bears this season, where they're explosive. You see the talent with both the quarterback and the receivers. It's wildly inconsistent. Obviously, the interception that Caleb throws in the first half, there's a miscommunication with him and Burton on that play where I think he thinks Burden is going to run the in breaker on Dagger. Burden keeps it vertical, but even in that moment, Burden is open and it's still a terrible throw.
- [14:53]
Dave Hellman
So no, I.
- [14:53]
Derek Classen
That. That's completely unburdened.
- [14:55]
Robert Mays
I think that that's on Burden. But at the same time he leaves that ball like 2 like 10 yards further up the field than he probably has to. Yeah, it's a, it's a bad, it's a bad play from the start. It's a miscommunication from the start, but it's bad ball all the way around.
- [15:08]
Derek Classen
Cause like I, I don't know what. Yeah, you don't know what route they're calling for. Like Caleb gives him like a head signal. Cause Burden motioned to the right on that play. Then they motion him all the way back to. It's like a different alignment and then Caleb gives him the head tap. So they were doing a lot of things like trying to move people around. I think Burton just didn't know what was going on on that play.
- [15:24]
Robert Mays
And then the other like the other Caleb throws two of them that I'm like, oh man. Like it just again the calibration is like the fourth and four he misses to love one in the first half where he just kind of leaves it like three yards ahead of him over the middle. And then there's a second and ten before they score the touchdown ultimately the second to last touchdown that they scored to Zacchaeus where he has a corner route to a Dunes A and he sails that one. And so again it's just like an inconsistent all over the place performance from the passing game. But you also have these spectacular moments from the quarterback and then specifically the 21 year old tight end is really good at football. What an incredible perform. He was everything. I mean the, the, the sheer production from him in this game. He finished with 15 targets. He had eight catches for 130 yards on 15 targets. No one else on the team had more than seven.
- [16:16]
Derek Classen
And I think the broadcast said it was like the first time a rookie tight end has had over 100 yards in like 30 years. I think it was 1988.
- [16:22]
Dave Hellman
Yeah, it was 1988. So 30. Almost 40 years.
- [16:26]
Derek Classen
Almost 40 years. Like this does not happen. Colson Loveland was truly incredible, which is funny because like he won in the first half. The passing game was really up and down in part because they weren't running the ball well enough. So like in the instances where they hit inconsistency on the passing offense it just mean the drive died. And then early in the third quarter Caleb actually threw like a beautiful over route to Loveland and he dropped it.
- [16:46]
Robert Mays
And then that dropped the fourth down two plays where it looked like completions. That ultimately we thought were fumbles, but actually they were incomplete passes.
- [16:53]
Derek Classen
And then every Loveland target after that was just like, oh my God, that's the best player on the field.
- [16:57]
Dave Hellman
It's crazy to me. I'm surprised just looking at it in the aftermath that Burden only finished with three catches for 42 yards. I mean, he did have seven targets on the day, but there were multiple times during the game where I was like, holy shit. They're just trying, like they're completely comfortable building this all around the two rookie pass catchers. And like, clearly they have the talent to to do that and they've been such a big part of the second half of the season. But looking to them, and particularly Loveland in all of these high leverage moments is just really cool.
- [17:30]
Robert Mays
All right, before we get to the rest of this game, let's take a quick break.
- [17:33]
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Robert Mays
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Robert Mays
And there it was. That hologram trading card. One of the rarest. The last one I needed for my set. Shiny like the designer handbag of my dreams.
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Robert Mays
Get your windshield wipers? Ebay has all the parts that fit my car.
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Robert Mays
Can I make my site firmer?
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Derek Classen
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- [20:00]
Robert Mays
You mentioned it the Bears run game, that was the element of this team that was not in line with who they've been offensively the entire year, what the packers run defense looked like, especially in the first half. But really for most of the game, the Bears didn't really try to run the ball in the second half. And I can understand why. The bears in the first half in this game, 14 for 38 on the ground with a 15 and a half percent success rate per next gen. And the three guys that jumped out to me with the packers run defense, Cooper was everywhere. He, he was everywhere. The third so they, they the the fourth and six that they eventually go for. The biggest play in that sequence to me is the third and six where the Bears are trying to run the ball on third down to try to make it a try to get to a 4th and 3, 4th and 2. Cooper just makes an incredible play coming downhill, slicing into the backfield to make that tackle for no gain and force them into that 4th and 6. Walker flying downhill on that split gun run to DJ Moore. Enig Bari had several excellent moments against the run in this game. So to watch the packers front and specifically those two linebackers and 55 control the game the way that they did throughout this entire thing, that was just something where it was just an incredibly impressive performance by them and just a version of this Bears offense we're not really used to seeing in the second half of the season.
- [21:17]
Derek Classen
Yeah, I, I think we said on our previous show like I expected them to come out and kind of kick their ass in the run game again and they really didn't. And I think part of it was those guys played really well on the, on the packers front. And then I also thought game Plan wise, it was pretty good. Like they were sending the backers a lot like on the Quay Walker run through on that DJ Moore play. They're sending him there. Yeah, he's triggering hard like. And they do a good job where Rykar, Jonah Jackson is occupied by the three technique who's on his right shoulder. And then there is a one technique on Dalman's left hand side. And so he's trying to like still work to the right and get in front of Quay Walker. But they actually knife the nose guard into Dolman. So he's like, okay, I got to pick this guy up. And it gives Quay Walker the free run through. And then Enig Bara was just like knifing inside on everything. Like he, I thought game plan wise, they, they had a good job for what they wanted to do against the Bears here.
- [22:04]
Robert Mays
That was the foundation of their defensive game plan. When they were dominating the game in the first half, the foundation of their offensive game plan is they were just cooking the Bears in man coverage. Romeo Dobbs was a serious problem. The, the plan that the packers had consistently when the Bears were in man coverage most of the time early in, in the first half, the return route, the return crossers, the crosser returns that they were running outside the numbers got Jalen Johnson on it once. I mean, Dobbs I believe finished before that final drive. He had five catches on four targets for 78 yards against man. And he was just dominant in those moments. Slot fade on one a little bit later on. He was so, so good there. And the packers just. There was no pressure for the Bears in this entire, in the entire first half. The Bears finished the first half with an 11.8% pressure rate per Next Gen Stats. In the second half, it ends up being 35% in part because of all the heat that they start sending on the day. Jordan Love finishes 2 of 10 for 9 yards when pressured. And so them being able to crank that up in the second half, that's I think, the driving force between how the offense feels so different for Green Bay in half number one compared to half number two. That being said, you understand how it happens. For as much credit as the Bears get for continuing to chip away and chip away and chip away and never go away in this game. If you're a Packer fan, to watch it end like this and to watch it fall apart and unravel like this, I don't think it discounts how great and dominant Matt LaFleur was in that first half against Dennis Allen. But at the same Time. This is one of those games where you got a thousand yard stare after this thing. And I can understand just like thinking every single conversation is on the table. Even though if I. Even though I don't think it should be.
- [23:47]
Dave Hellman
You don't think it discounts it? Like, I'm like, I'm glad you just said that. Like, I'll. I think this is a game that could cost Matt LaFleur his job.
- [23:55]
Robert Mays
Do you think it should? I think that's my question. I'm not. I wouldn't be surprised if we were having that conversation. Do you think it should end with that? Because I just. I don't know if I'm there.
- [24:04]
Derek Classen
I doubt that I could get to like 10 coaches that I want before Matt LaFleur, which, like, I'm not going to fire that guy.
- [24:10]
Robert Mays
The funniest thing is at the end of the first half, and this is not how we should make decisions, but at the end of the first half, there are people online essentially saying, like, what does Matt LaFleur want per year? Right? Yeah, that's. And that. That's what it.
- [24:22]
Dave Hellman
This looked like Packers, Cowboys all over again at halftime.
- [24:25]
Robert Mays
And then. And then the second half happens. And so where you land between those two polls, I'm not sure, but if I were a Packer fan right now, I'd be pretty apoplectic.
- [24:35]
Dave Hellman
I can say that I don't think I would be ready to fire Matt LaFleur over this, especially considering this is a Packer team that lost arguably its two best players over the course of the year, like Tucker Kraft and Micah Parsons not being part of this thing. I think that's tough. But holy shit, man, they missed their.
- [24:51]
Derek Classen
Quarterback for most of the stretch. Down the hat down like the last month of the season.
- [24:55]
Dave Hellman
That is, that is fair. I. It's just, I don't. I would be so pissed off if I were a Green Bay fan, especially. And like, you talked about what it means to Bears fans to get this win, to be a Packer fan and have a chance to just give your little brother the biggest set of noogies in history just on such a great season for the Bears in their place after like, you know, a disappointing packers team just came in and ruined everything and you're already daydreaming about, oh, maybe we can get Seattle at their place at halftime and for it to be this way. Like, I don't blame a Packer fan that wants to fire Matt LaFleur, but I think you should be careful what you wish for. Like, I don't think I would be willing to do it.
- [25:39]
Robert Mays
So what do you think the conversation should be then? Because if we're not going willing to go that far, I do think that we should have a discussion about what this. I mean, it's a collapse, right? Like, it's a horrifying collapse in the second half of that game. So if we're not going to go all the way to, he should be fired. What do you think the conversation should be?
- [25:59]
Derek Classen
I mean, I really don't know. I think that this was. I think ultimately what lost in this game was like once they started to heat them up. I think you saw some of the offensive line talent kind of crop up in this game. I think that ultimately became the issue and I think a lot of that.
- [26:11]
Robert Mays
In this game, which is worth mentioning, right? Yeah.
- [26:13]
Derek Classen
And I think honestly with a lot of the, like Jordan Love was, what did you say? 2, 2 of 10 under pressure, there were at least 3 or 4 of those throws that he's putting near guys, but they're never open. Like when on a lot of those cases when he's like, if a guy's not getting open immediately and he's got to hold onto the ball for an extra take, he's kind of just chucking it up for them and he's giving them some chances. But there were a lot of times in this game where if he wasn't getting that, like Romeo Dobbs is immediately open on the slot fade, then nobody's open at all and he's really trying to force these windows. So I think you just like, maybe I'm coping for a quarterback that I think is good. That could absolutely be it. But I do think you started to feel some of the other issues with the offense on top of, like you said, Dave, you're two, probably two or three best players for the entire year are gone.
- [26:55]
Robert Mays
So what? I guess that's where I'm at. We just get reached another year where a Packers team that I think all of us believed at various points this season in the preseason that they would probably be in the range of being title contenders.
- [27:09]
Derek Classen
I put them there.
- [27:10]
Robert Mays
I think for a lot of reasons it didn't happen. They get a little bit hurt, they start to slide down the back half of the season. I can understand why they didn't ultimately rise to that level in the end. But now for the third year in a row, this is a Packers team that's getting bounced before getting to where they want to get in the playoffs. And so I guess what does the cope Sound like for the 2026 packers, like, why are we in a place where we're going to go into this offseason and be like, you know what guys, next year is going to be different?
- [27:38]
Derek Classen
You know what?
- [27:38]
Dave Hellman
Maybe it's, it's. I don't, I don't want to be the guy that advocates to fire who I think is a really good head coach, but maybe that is a, a point for the people that would want change because like, much like the Baltimore Ravens, like, everybody thinks John Harbaugh is a good coach. He's a con. He accomplished so much in Baltimore. But change can be a good thing, right? And maybe, maybe the, the change of voice, the change of direction, the new set of ideas would benefit this team, a new approach. Because. And here's how I got here, because I'm looking at it and if I was going to change one thing or if there was one sticking point, I would be like, we're not going into another year where Josh Jacobs is averaging 3 yards a carry all year long and our offensive line is this weakness and this thing that we can't get around.
- [28:27]
Robert Mays
They've tried to address that.
- [28:28]
Dave Hellman
That's what I was about to say. They just gave Aaron Banks a shitload of money. They just drafted Anthony Belton High, very recently drafted Jordan Morgan highly. Like, it's not like they haven't been trying to do this and it just hasn't been working. And by the way, thanks to the Micah trade, you don't have a first round pick for the next two years. So this is kind of what you got. So I mean, you got to take a hard look at yourself and say, is the staff and the talent that we have enough to get us beyond being the seventh seed in the NFC playoffs? Cause that's the world that we've been living in, I guess. I think they were the six last year. But you get my point. Winning the NFC north and trying to fight your way through the playoffs on the road, and you're going to be doing it with this personnel and who knows, I mean if, if Tucker Craft and Micah Parsons are available, this might go completely differently. But you can't bank on net. Maybe next year it's Jacobs that you don't have or, or somebody else that's very, very valuable. I mean you can't, you can't count on good health in the NFL. It's a 100% chance of injury game.
- [29:31]
Derek Classen
But two of your best three does. It does to me feel like it changes the calculus in a way that is like, pretty insane.
- [29:37]
Dave Hellman
They were up by three possessions at halftime at this game.
- [29:39]
Derek Classen
I think that's different than like, this specific, like having lost this specific game, if that makes sense.
- [29:45]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I'm mostly playing devil's advocate when it comes to, like, all right, what should the conversation be? Because I think a reasonable place to land with a conversation is you get Michael Parsons back next year, you get Tucker Kraft back next year, you're still going to be a very good team. Matt LaFleur is one of the reasons that you're capable of being the team you've been on offense over the last four or five seasons is moving on from him. What are the chances that the packers offense would be better if Matt LaFleur wasn't the. Wasn't the head coach?
- [30:11]
Derek Classen
Yeah, well, especially with this cycle. Yeah, especially in this cycle. Like, who are you excited to go? Like, I just. I would be shocked. One, one, I would not fire him and two, if they fired him, I would be shocked if I felt better about whoever they hired than I do about Matt LaFleur.
- [30:26]
Robert Mays
I tend to agree with that.
- [30:27]
Dave Hellman
You think it's a coincidence John Harbaugh didn't want to take any interviews before this weekend's game started? I'm dead serious. I like Buffalo plays at noon tomorrow. I mean, there could be some tasty vacancies available by Tuesday.
- [30:41]
Robert Mays
The packers, in terms of the talent, I don't want to dig too much into this because we're going to do the postmortems for these teams on the Monday Hangover show, like, really dig into what the forward looking conversation should look like. With the packers in the draft, I think they found a lot of really useful players over the last couple years. Cooper was a 2024 draft pick. Emma Williams was a 2024 draft pick. Luke Musgr, or excuse me, Tucker Kraft was a 2023 third round pick. I think that there are. They have found a lot of contributors over the last few years. Quay Walker has developed into a good player. We didn't even mention. Devonte Wyatt is hurt right now. And so another guy that was, you know, a part of this team and a highly drafted player that was not on the roster by the end of the season. I think this year, to me, the more disappointing aspect of the player acquisition stuff is that the two big swings they took in free agency were Banks and Nate Hobbs. And I don't. I think both of those look like misallocations of resources at this point.
- [31:37]
Dave Hellman
Yeah, Hobbs gonna retreat back to. He's like, this is. See this is what happens when I hand out big free agency contracts.
- [31:44]
Derek Classen
They. They. It is funny that a lot of the ways that, like, the packers tried to deviate from who they had been for like 30, 40 years, whatever, kind of failed them. Like one the big for free agency signings. But then also, if you think about the offensive line and Justice Mosqueda has done a really good job of pointing us out, they are huge now in a way that, like, packers offensive lines have never really been that big. It's been a lot of lighter guys, guys they've taken in the fourth, fifth, sixth round. The Zach Toms who, like, they're a little bit undersized and they find this, like, unique. This unique value in whatever those guys are. And then they try to go spend on banks and try to do all this other stuff, and it just hasn't, like, take draft picks like Anthony Belton, who maybe he'll be good, but he's massive and just not who they usually go for. Jordan Morgan, kind of same thing. Just like a lot of the ways that they've tried to get off the beaten path of who the packers have been have like, almost kind of hurt them pretty recently.
- [32:30]
Robert Mays
I think where I land with it all is if the packers are in the playoffs again next year with Micah Parsons, Tucker Kraft, Zach Tom, year two of Anthony, Anthony of Matthew Golden. I just think that there is reason to believe that it's not worth giving up on this version of what you've built here. I think that's where I land with it. I guarantee you there's so many packers fans that just don't want to hear that right now.
- [32:55]
Dave Hellman
Not only that, there are so many people who listen to our show who don't want to hear us fall in love with the packers next August.
- [33:01]
Robert Mays
I don't think I'm going to do that because I'm in a place now where I'm in love with a different team. In the NFC North. The Bears rule the North. Well, we don't have to talk about the Bears future because we'll have plenty of time to discuss that over the next couple of weeks. I mean, they're going to play another playoff game. And so the Bears outlook is.
- [33:17]
Dave Hellman
Are you. Are you a big San Francisco 49ers fan for the next 18 hours?
- [33:22]
Robert Mays
So what is it? What is the. What happens now? What. What's like this, you know, like the sequencing and like, what happens based on who wins and loses more than I do. So. So if the Niners win, the Rams have won. Yes.
- [33:32]
Dave Hellman
So the highest Seed goes to the. No, actually, I guess you would. Excuse me? You would hate for the 49ers to win because it would send the Rams to Chicago.
- [33:42]
Robert Mays
So you want.
- [33:43]
Dave Hellman
You. You. I would assume you want an Eagles, Bears rematch over Niners or over Rams?
- [33:48]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I think, I think that's my apologies.
- [33:51]
Dave Hellman
You want an Eagles home victory because that would set up Rams to the Seahawks and Bears Eagles.
- [33:57]
Robert Mays
That's what I thought and I think that is correct.
- [33:59]
Dave Hellman
But I think. I think you're right to want that.
- [34:02]
Robert Mays
Just to kind of put a bow on all of this. An incredible night. I don't want to like, I think we went pretty quickly to like the TikTok of how the game went. And I want to sit in just the feeling for a second and just not just for me, but just like watching that game. It was an insane, crazy football game on so many different levels. I. I thought I liked up my nervous system before we started recording this show. I. My adrenaline was like pulsing so hard.
- [34:30]
Dave Hellman
We didn't have a camera on us tonight because our wonderful producer Scott is at the game with his son, which I love. I'm glad he's having that moment.
- [34:39]
Robert Mays
I'm. I'm very happy they were there as well.
- [34:41]
Dave Hellman
But just so you know, and Mays is like, he's ridiculously stoic most of the time. But rest assured, the outbursts were there really from beginning to end. Like outbursts of agony in the first half and then the. The catharsis at the end. It was. It was loud in our studio, which is not often the case.
- [35:04]
Robert Mays
The most perfect set of numbers from this game. The Bears finished with 421 yards offensively. They had a 36% success rate.
- [35:13]
Dave Hellman
That's.
- [35:13]
Derek Classen
That's been them all year. That's who they are. That's who they are.
- [35:16]
Robert Mays
It's just absolutely bonkers.
- [35:18]
Dave Hellman
I'm workshopping this take and it might not last. And I want to give respect and deference to like Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson and Patrick Mahomes, but this year has Caleb Williams just been the most entertaining player in NFL football. And that does not mean best.
- [35:35]
Robert Mays
I don't know if that's true.
- [35:36]
Dave Hellman
That does not mean best.
- [35:38]
Robert Mays
I think the last four to six weeks he's had a lot of really cool high end moments.
- [35:43]
Derek Classen
And I think where I can actually get with Dave a little bit is there's more of a mystery as to what you're getting on. The sure is part of it. When you watch Patrick. Patrick Mahomes, like at his best. It's usually like, well, yeah, he's pretty incredible. He's not really going to mess things up. And he's going to make four incredible plays with Caleb Williams. You're just like, this could be the great one. This could be one where he kind of just throws a ball at somebody.
- [36:03]
Robert Mays
Well, the one.
- [36:04]
Dave Hellman
The thing that made me think about this, Robert, and we talked about it. Where. Where was it in the game? It was late in the game.
- [36:09]
Robert Mays
Yeah, it was.
- [36:10]
Dave Hellman
It was right before. So they're driving, I think, to take the lead, right?
- [36:15]
Robert Mays
Yeah. So it was the touchdown that made it 21:16, I believe he. It was like early in the fourth quarter, the scramble he had on the right side. Yeah. And then right after that, they threw the big sail route to level and for that huge chunk.
- [36:27]
Dave Hellman
So he's. I mean, and he's done it. It is a theme for Caleb where he scrambles, he gets outside. He's more than fast enough to get to the sticks, even if there's a chance at a collision or a guy trying to make the tackle on him.
- [36:40]
Robert Mays
And the.
- [36:42]
Dave Hellman
That moment of like, run, Caleb, run, Caleb. Oh, God, no.
- [36:45]
Robert Mays
He's gonna throw.
- [36:46]
Dave Hellman
And then it's like the hardest throw you've ever seen in your life, like, right at a guy. And it's just. It's a thrill ride. And I thought he should have run right there, but then. But he makes up for it.
- [36:56]
Derek Classen
That one DJ Moore drops.
- [36:57]
Robert Mays
Was it that one? Yeah, it was the one DJ Moore drops.
- [36:59]
Derek Classen
Yeah, he threw it at him like that.
- [37:01]
Dave Hellman
It was a perfect ball, 110 miles an hour from like 12 yards away. But he. I think he gets the first down if he runs for it. And that's. That's what I mean by entertaining. Like anything can on any snap. And half the time it's going to be amazing. And half the time you're going to be like, what the hell was that?
- [37:18]
Robert Mays
You used the term super mutant earlier when you were talking about some of the other guys. What Caleb Williams reminds me of now. Reminds me of now, you know, in like, certain depictions of Cyclops where he doesn't have the little visor thing on and it's just like spraying control of the laser vision. That. That is legitimately what Caleb Williams reminds me of in this stage of Caleb Williams, where he is a mutant, like, brings the ceiling down and he is capable of that. Like, the. The sheer amount of raw ability in his body is bonkers. But again, the word I kept using on the previous show is the calibration just isn't there yet. And you feel that it's. It's inconsistent, it's up and down. And what I kind of root my optimism in is two things. One, the progress has been incredibly encouraging where he is now compared to where he was last season, and even in my opinion, where he was early points in this season. I think the first half was a little bit of those downswings that we have seen from him.
- [38:19]
Derek Classen
He just missed a couple in the first half.
- [38:21]
Robert Mays
He wasn't good. He didn't play very well. But for the most part, I think in the second half he's been playing some of his best ball, but it's still not there yet. I think that his overall trajectory gives you optimism. And the other thing that gives me optimism is Ben Johnson had his all over the place moments tonight. The only one I really don't agree with is the fourth and four on your own 30. I just think that's one where. Where you don't have to go for it.
- [38:43]
Dave Hellman
Oh, so you didn't like that? I was about to bring that up. I thought you might have been in favor of that because of how bad the Bears defense was in the first half.
- [38:51]
Robert Mays
I think for the most part, the overall aggressiveness, I'm completely supportive of that. Fourth and fourth, your own 30, where they go up 21 6. If you don't get it, I think there's an argument to be made that they're going up 216 anyway. And so giving them a short field, your possessions are worth maximizing. In that moment specifically, I had a head coach text me right when it happened, and he was like, I'm aggressive. That was insane. And I. I tend to think that that's an okay place to land on that decision specifically.
- [39:17]
Derek Classen
That was the one right after the commit, like, drop, fumble thing.
- [39:20]
Robert Mays
Right.
- [39:20]
Derek Classen
There's like an element where it's like that feels a little bit like tilting a little bit.
- [39:24]
Robert Mays
Emotional choices.
- [39:25]
Dave Hellman
That reminded me, Derek, you. You game. That reminded me of like playing Madden and you're getting your ass kicked and you're like, all right, I'm going for this. And if I get. If I don't get it, I'm logging out. Like, I'm just quitting this game.
- [39:37]
Robert Mays
But here, you know what's. And you know what I was. The other thing I was about to say is I think even though he was all over the place, one of the other reasons I'm optimistic about the trajectory of the team and the trajectory of Carol Williams. They didn't log out.
- [39:48]
Dave Hellman
They did not. You're right.
- [39:49]
Robert Mays
They didn't log out. And the fact that they didn't and the fact that they never have, and the fact that combined with what I think is a very strong offensive foundation, schematically, the ideas what they're trying to do, combined with the fact that this team never logs out under this guy, that's not the most important thing. There's so much variance and all that shit. I understand that. But I do think there's something to it. I do think that there is something to the fact that this team has never once crawled into a shell, no matter what has happened in these games. And for a young team like this, I do think that shit matters.
- [40:25]
Dave Hellman
How many times has this happened? Which ironically, the season started. God, can you imagine we'd be here if I had told you while you were filing out of Soldier Field in that week one Monday night game.
- [40:36]
Robert Mays
I do not think so.
- [40:38]
Dave Hellman
Whatever it 17 to 6, a lifetime ago.
- [40:40]
Robert Mays
But other times I've died five times since then, that is.
- [40:44]
Dave Hellman
That's been the story of like 13 of their 18 games now where it's like, man, I thought this was over six different times and they won the game.
- [40:53]
Robert Mays
Guess what? They will host a playoff game in the divisional round next weekend.
- [40:57]
Dave Hellman
Can't wait.
- [40:57]
Robert Mays
Before we move on, let's take a quick break.
- [41:04]
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- [42:39]
Robert Mays
Get to our next one here, the Los Angeles Rams. It seemed like we were going to get a blowout in the second game after getting this incredible finish in game one that we didn't necessarily expect. Then we get an incredible game and the second outing today, but the first one was insane. I mean, just an amazing game between the Rams and the Panthers that I don't think anybody really saw coming. And I think the moment we can. Let's, let's just start there. I want to give the Panthers a ton of credit for making this thing essentially sending it down to the wire. I mean, do you talk about an encouraging showing from a team that I think is still pretty young in its overall trajectory? It's year two of Canales. You're an eight and nine team. You're 10 point underdogs at home in a playoff game. And for them to be right there in this thing against a team that is so much further along than they are, like the Panthers deserve a ton of credit for making this as fun and as entertaining as it was.
- [43:40]
Dave Hellman
The cliche is that there are no moral victories in the NFL, but really this game and this whole season for the Panthers, I'm willing to call a moral victory. And I'm sure those guys probably don't feel that way right now because they looked like they had it and they, they had a shot at it. And we can talk about it. That final possession, really disheartening and you don't have J.C. horn on the field for it as Matthew Stafford's just carving you up. I'm sure they're pissed right now, but what a, I mean, what a game and what a season for a team that. No, I mean nobody gave them a chance in this game. And that's not hyperbole to say, like nobody thought that they were going to win this game.
- [44:18]
Robert Mays
I really, I like Kevin Burker. I think him and Tom Brady have done a good job. This. Excuse me. It was, it was Greg and Joe. It was Greg and Joe. I love Greg and Joe. Right. Like, I think that they, they're the best in the business. Joe, specifically in this game, I think was just like very matter of fact about how tilted the game was early on. Like it Was like, ah, this is like almost an inevitability, like, the Rams are going to win this game. And it's like, I understand. Like, I think that's probably even that if that is technically true and even if we do know that, I still thought that they were being, like, somewhat flippant about the gap between the two teams in the first half. Like. Like when the moment that I come back to is, it seemed like we were going to get this sequence where the rams go up 24 to seven. At the end of the first half, they don't get the fourth and three, and then the Panthers go down and score to make it 1714, which was the crucial swing in the game. And it felt like he was almost like surprise. Like, it was almost like, oh, that was. That's what was supposed to happen. And then it didn't happen. And so that I was like. That was like, somewhat confusing to me in terms of, like, how they were kind of framing it over the course of the day. But I think that speaks to what the dynamics were as we walked into this football game.
- [45:32]
Dave Hellman
Absolutely.
- [45:33]
Robert Mays
Yeah.
- [45:33]
Dave Hellman
And, yeah, I. I think that's fair, but I think it matches the tone of this.
- [45:39]
Robert Mays
I'm not overly upset with it. I just. Yeah, I was just a little bit surprised that they kept coming back to that. Announcers often don't because they're trying to make you as interested in the game as you can be.
- [45:49]
Derek Classen
They want you to care. Which almost, in a way, like, did work back in their favor, like, with them selling so hard that the Panthers should not be in this game. As they start to come back into this game, it kind of does make like you start to realize how much of a miracle this was. I mean, I thought, obviously, the Rams end up winning this game. They make enough plays to do it. But, like, in the middle two quarters, the second and third quarter, the Panthers were the better team, absolutely, significantly. And I. Their defense there. There's a handful of guys we can shout out. I thought the run defense wasn't, like, special, but they held the rams to a 44% rushing success rate, which is typically good, but they didn't really give up any explosives. And the Rams have run for much better than that against most teams and certainly the first time these two teams played. So I thought them bowing up there was really impressive. And then Mike Jackson was.
- [46:32]
Dave Hellman
He was awesome.
- [46:33]
Robert Mays
He's had a great season, and we've talked about that, but he was excellent in this game.
- [46:37]
Derek Classen
It all came to a head in this game. Like, he just had Multiple incredible plays. I mean again, he made a number in this game, but the one there was a sequence out of the half where actually both of their corners made an incredible play. Mike Jackson rakes this ball out of Devonte Adams hands. He's running like an outbreak to the right hand side. It hits Adams in his hands, he rakes it out. And then on the next play, J.C. horn gets under a corner route that Devonte Adams is running and he does an incredible job of just like leaping, extending his hand and getting there. And that was what they made a lot of the game feel like. Like the Rams for whatever reason. I mean I know their receivers are great, but they were really targeting outside the numbers and attacking what is the best and maybe only good part of the Panthers defense in their corners, which I thought was kind of bizarre. And those two corners absolutely stood up to the test. They were incredible in this game.
- [47:23]
Robert Mays
I think I would love to look at the numbers on it. I mean I know that the Rams or the Panthers in the first half played a good chun of COVID three. And then it seemed like they were playing a little bit more like funkier too high coverages in that period that you're talking about. And they also, they were. The pressures were getting home. Whether they were blitzes or whether they were just simple twists on those. The first two possessions coming out of the half, I believe the Panthers went. Or the. The Rams went three and out on both of those possessions on the second and tens in those sequences actually might have been the last drive of the first half before the puka miss. Right. So the puka drop on was I think was on third down. And the just what the pressure that the Panthers were getting in some of those moments. The first drive out of the half There was a second and 10 where they had like a little cross dog right down, right down the pipe. And Cheryl has got a really quick pressure and Stafford had to get rid of it deep to Adams on that play. And then on that third and 10 is where he kind of dirts it to Adams almost immediately. And so I thought that some of the pressure planned from Carolina in the second half and just some of the variety in coverage compared to all the COVID three they were playing in the first half. It was just giving the Rams more problems than you might expect with this passing game against the Panthers defense.
- [48:35]
Derek Classen
And I really thought like the Rams for the most part did struggle to find out what they thought the answer was that to that was supposed to be. I think eventually they did a really good job of Finding a little bit more answers over the middle of the field, clearing some of those guys out. Which makes sense, right? Like if you think about where is this Panthers defense week, the linebackers are not very good, especially in coverage. And so I was kind of surprised they didn't go heavier for a lot of this game and really try to pick on that part of it. It instead they again they kept their receivers out there and really, really tried to attack outside the numbers down the field, which just kind of a bizarre game plan to me given how good those corners were.
- [49:09]
Dave Hellman
It felt to me at times like the Rams were trying to prove something, like prove that they were this overwhelming juggernaut, that the first time they came in here was a fluke and they can absolutely beat the Panthers by 17 plus points. It just, they felt really aggressive and, and to be fair to them, some of that is missed opportunity. I mean this game might look completely different if Pukinakua makes a routine catch on the double move that you just mentioned where if that's not a touchdown, it's putting them inside the 10 yard line with a chance to go up right before the half. So maybe it's justified. But it really felt like they were trying to get aggressive targeting their two receipt, Devonte and Puka in particular. And yeah, and lo and behold, the decider is when you get your tight end involved and get him matched up on the outside. The other one that I thought is worth highlighting is you to your point about the linebackers, they score with Kyron Williams on a little angle route over the middle and I was like, yeah man, this, this shit works. It doesn't have to be the flashy throw, you know, throwing these 25 yard digs with perfect anticipation on every snap. Like you can do this stuff too.
- [50:18]
Derek Classen
And you know what's funny about the Parkinson touchdown is like it's not, not obviously it's an incredible play, but it's not like they super out schemed them there. Like Trevin Merrick was on that and it was incredible coverage.
- [50:29]
Dave Hellman
It was just a great play. I didn't mean to suggest that he like took advantage of it or anything.
- [50:33]
Derek Classen
No, but that's even that like it's just like it's. It didn't even really feel like the Rams found that many answers. It was just like Colby Parkinson and Matthew Stafford made an insane play in that moment.
- [50:42]
Robert Mays
So it was funny because they sequenced into that play. So if you look at the way that, that that drive unfolded, they hit a big in breaker to Puka out of that exact same look where Puka's in kind of a condensed sp again, condensed split with Parkinson to that side. And on that play earlier in the drive, they flash Parkinson to the flat. And then Puka comes on the in breaker. And so on the final touchdown, they run what is the next step and wrinkle off of that where they have Parkinson do a little double move where he flashes to the flat and then takes it vertically. And in theory that's the play you should be able to hit as like a sequence off of the last one. But Merrick is in his hip pocket the entire time and Parkinson and Stafford just make a insane play to win the game. I mean it's a, it is a beautiful throw and catch.
- [51:27]
Dave Hellman
Did you see what Devonte Adams told the press?
- [51:31]
Robert Mays
I did see. I did.
- [51:32]
Derek Classen
Did you see this about Stafford?
- [51:34]
Dave Hellman
Stafford said, let's go snatch their hearts. Yeah. And he and Devonte was like, this is the most gangster shit I've ever heard in my life. Or he was like, I was just smiling in the huddle because what a cool thing to say.
- [51:45]
Robert Mays
That's. I mean they're capable of doing that, right? I mean like that's, that's what this Rams team can do. And like it fell a couple different times in this game and I the, the moment where to me it was like, oh man, I think this might happen. Is the sequence for the rant for the Panthers to go up 24 to 20 on a second down. The Rams try to run a boot to the left side and Travis Gibson eventually gets the sack. But if you watch how like gloved up that thing is when they're trying to boot left, it's Princely Umami. Owen is on the edge on that play. He takes, I think it was Davis Allen to the flat Rose. Boom. Does a great job of carrying Higby on the crosser. They're in 13 personnel and then Horn stays on the big kind of clear out pile on route. So I think it was Mumfield. And so there's nowhere for Stafford to go on that second down boot. He gets sacked. And then the next play is the one where he throws the interception to Mike Jackson. It's a little ET with Wanham and Derrick Brown and then Brown comes clean off the right side. So Stafford gets heated up a little bit, leaves it short. Mike Jackson picks that ball off and then immediately on the next drive you have that 52 yard shunk to Jalen Coker off the dagger. And the Panthers throughout this game both in terms of kind of deeper comebacks. Outside the numbers and in breakers, when they had time against the Rams corners, both Coker and T. Mac were eating. And so when coker catches that 52 yarder and sets them up down inside the 10, I'm like, I think, I think they're going to win this game. And so for the Rams again to kind of keep punching back, I. They deserve a lot of credit and they really shows what that offense is capable of because on that and after the block punt, it really did seem like this was not going to go their way and.
- [53:28]
Derek Classen
Cause like, with the Coker play and some of the McMillan plays, you felt like it was going to be sustainable because, like, that was exactly what we said the game would look like coming in where it's like it was. If the Panthers passing game works, it's going to be because those guys are running these deep outside the numbers routes. They're hitting some of these crossers. Like there was one where it felt like McMillan blocked out the sun in front of Emmanuel Forbes and like it was a really good ball by Bryce Young, I think on one of the third and tens. But just like McMillan just gets so far in front of the DB that is just. There's no shot that anyone else is going to catch it. Like, I thought that the way that McMillan played, Coker played was exactly what you're scared of if you are this Rams defense where you're like, like our corners do lose if they can't just trigger on, on throws that are, you know, within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.
- [54:11]
Dave Hellman
Emmanuel Forbes has largely been a, a fun, pleasant, good story for the Rams this year. And Kobe Durant's made a ton of really big plays for them as well. But I was watch, I was watching all of that unfold and I was like, may be able to get the first cornerback in the draft with that number 13 overall pick or you could, you could be in range for it at least. That might not be a bad idea.
- [54:33]
Derek Classen
It'd help you avoid a game looking like that one. The Isaiah Simmons blocked punt. By the way, his effort on.
- [54:40]
Dave Hellman
Don't forget the play he made as the gunner.
- [54:42]
Derek Classen
I got in like the first quarter. Yes.
- [54:44]
Dave Hellman
Bound him inside the 10 yard line.
- [54:46]
Robert Mays
Great.
- [54:47]
Derek Classen
Which, that was a funny like full circle moment with this game was like he makes that play as a gunner inside the five and they say Isaiah Simmons. I was like that Isaiah Simmons. And I didn't, I just didn't realize he was on the team. And then he ends up blocking this pun and like they line up with everybody on the right hand side of the offensive line, like they're trying to overload that side. And it's really just Isaiah Simmons versus, I think it was one of the Rams backup safeties. He's like the wing to that side and he just. The two hand punch, he shoots into that guy's chest to just get by him and go block that punt. It was an incredible effort to do that.
- [55:18]
Dave Hellman
Special teams, Ram.
- [55:20]
Derek Classen
Special teams.
- [55:21]
Dave Hellman
It shows up, Brandon. I mean, it almost cost the Rams. Brandon McManus misses a field goal, an easy field goal and an extra point in the Bears game. It usually shows up in the playoffs. Just saying.
- [55:32]
Robert Mays
It really did feel like this was just going to get out of hand for the Panthers because the way that the first half went, they go for it on their own 45 on their first drive. Which you. I said in the moment. I said it in the moment when the Bears started going for it. You got to know what game you're playing. And I think the Rams, the Panthers understood what game they were playing. I support going for it from your own 45 when you're a 10 and a half point underdog. Rams come out and score very quickly. And then we have, I think two, two straight, two punts back to back. But then the next ramp, the next Panthers drive down 7, nothing is when Bryce Young throws an interception. And so, and that's a play where I think there's a lot going on on that play. But the most important aspect of that play, which happens with like a minute and 30 left in the first quarter, there's Bryce has to reset in the pocket. So he has to reset and change his platform very quickly. And as that's happening on that end breaker to Coker, Quinn Lake is the post safety on that play and he comes down on it hard and Coker stops running. But I still don't think that's a ball that Bryce should even attempt. And part of the reason that I think that entire thing goes askew is that he has to reset to try to throw that ball because he's moving in the pocket, right?
- [56:41]
Derek Classen
That's one of those where you watch it and it's like, oh, Coker stops running. And it's like, yeah, but one, the ball should be there sooner because like you said, Bryce has to reset in the pocket. I think he's a little bit late coming off of the right hand side to begin with. Yes, he's late. He has to reset. And then he's just not someone who has that much velocity. So he's not like making up that time the way that, I don't know, Josh Allen or whoever it is or Caleb Williams, like those guys can. And so the ball's on like it ends up being like kind of in front of the right hash. You probably want that there closer to the middle of the hashes, maybe on the left hash like in terms of timing. And so he basically throws him into the safety. And so I, I get it looks bad for Coker, but yeah, that's. That's really more of like a. Everybody's kind of at fault here. One, one quick thing I do want to say in terms of Panthers knowing the game they're playing, they did a lot of like really spreading the Rams out in this game. Which again, if you're going to try to like, let's make these corners cover as much space as possible on these.
- [57:35]
Robert Mays
Dig routes over routes that were running horizontally.
- [57:38]
Derek Classen
Yes. Like they were really making those guys run and they made them pay for pretty much four quarters.
- [57:44]
Robert Mays
The sequence again that I kept coming back to that is the reason that this is a game is that the Rams go for it on that fourth and three with about a minute and 30 left in the second quarter. And it's a great call, I think, and I think it's your evero period did a lot of really good things in this game to give the Rams problems. But they send a simulated pressure on that play with Merrick coming off the right side. They drop Wanham and both linebackers and it's cover two behind it. And Stafford has nowhere to go. He tries to escape a little bit to his right, tries to find the tight end late. That ball gets incomplete. And then the Panthers come back and score for 17 14. And that then we have a game. And so that is a huge swing to make this a game. And the other play we have not mentioned yet that is massively, massively important in the Rams winning this game is the Puka Nakua defensive back moment that we get in the second half.
- [58:32]
Dave Hellman
You're so right.
- [58:32]
Robert Mays
Just think about if that doesn't happen.
- [58:35]
Derek Classen
I totally forgot about that play. And that too was like, I couldn't even really tell why Stafford threw it where he threw it. Cause Nuku is clearly looks like he's like snapping off like a pretty deep comeback route to the right hand side. And so he's turning around that way. Stafford throws it like up the field into the end zone. It seemed like nobody knew what was going on. So for him to have the presence of mind there to be like, oh shit, I got to go get back and break that up.
- [58:57]
Sleep Number Advertiser
That.
- [58:58]
Derek Classen
That was a pretty incredible play.
- [58:59]
Dave Hellman
I'm. I'm looking forward in my notes because.
- [59:02]
Robert Mays
Yeah.
- [59:04]
Dave Hellman
And then they pick, they pick up the fourth and one after that, right?
- [59:07]
Robert Mays
Yeah. Yes.
- [59:08]
Dave Hellman
Just. Yeah, the. The things that go. The things that you can forget about because of all the high leverage stuff at the end of these games, which makes me. I want to circle back to that because I was curious for your thoughts. It's. It, it's a talking point on social media. I don't really agree with it, but the way the Panthers played that final drive, because you mentioned Ajaro Evero and people are just killing the Panthers for how soft they played on that possession. My counter to that is with J.C. horn unavailable, what's your alternative? Like, how aggressive. Do you really want to try that? Knowing the receivers that are on that side of the ball? And I get it, the Rams zipped right down the field on them. But I think you got to give yourself a chance. But I mean, I went back and watched it and I mean the Panthers were playing like 12 yards off the whole way down the field.
- [59:57]
Robert Mays
I can understand that. I think that their best versions of that defense over the course of this game is when they were getting a little bit more aggressive up front, when they were throwing a few more things at them. And so to be a little bit more static the same way you were in the first half, when they were kind of controlling the way that the game was going on that side of the ball, I can understand being frustrated by that. If I'm in pan, I can completely understand that. I think the last kind of note about this, just overall, the Rams escaping in this game like I. The alternative. I can't even imagine what the discussion is after this thing. If the Rams somehow did not pull this off, not only the fact that you lost as a 10 and a half point favorite, but like this playoff field and how wide open it feels and the fact that the Rams fell asleep like the best team in the league for a huge chunk of this season. And I do think that what Seattle has looked like down the stretch, like I right now coming in the playoffs, thought the Seahawks were the best team, but I thought the Rams were not that far behind. And so in a year where it does feel like there is an opportunity for so many of these teams to lose at Carolina as a 10 and a half point favorite, if you were the Rams, it would just be devastating. Like the packers losing in the way that they did to the Bears is devastating. But I think, I think even packers fans understand that because of some of the injuries and what they look like by the end of the year they probably didn't have the juice to get all the way there. The Rams absolutely have that juice. And so for their season to end today would have been like a truly unacceptable outcome.
- [61:27]
Derek Classen
Well, because you know how fragile the build is with, with the Rams where your quarterback is as old as he is.
- [61:32]
Robert Mays
He's not having this season again. He has the best season of his career.
- [61:36]
Derek Classen
He's probably not doing this again. Even if he's good next year, it won't look like MVP number. No idea when the wall is going to come for devonte Adams, who is one of your best offensive players. And then even on defense, I know it's a lot of young guys, but like within the next two years a lot of these guys are going to become expensive and it's going to be even harder to build a really high quality defense. And so, and I think even just the way the defense is built now is kind of fragile and flimsy just in terms of like if the front doesn't win the game for us, we cannot win the game because we just saw what our corners do. Like, I do think that like, like every, every year really, really, really does matter for this Rams team just the way that they built this thing.
- [62:12]
Dave Hellman
It's probably too late to have this conversation like it, it doesn't matter anymore. Cause you just, you survive in advance and then you get to play another playoff game. But to your point, Robert, and like we keep saying the Rams are the best team in the league or on the short list for best team in the league. When was the last time they looked like the best team in the league?
- [62:32]
Robert Mays
League? It's been a while.
- [62:34]
Dave Hellman
Was it, was it the first three, two and a half quarters of the Seahawks game?
- [62:38]
Robert Mays
I think that is the last time.
- [62:39]
Dave Hellman
Did the Seahawks break the Rams. I'm being facetious when I say that.
- [62:44]
Robert Mays
That is the last time they looked like it. And I think since then you have seen.
- [62:47]
Dave Hellman
That was before Christmas by the way.
- [62:49]
Robert Mays
I think you've seen, I mean we'll see how much the hand might have affected Matthew Stafford in this game. But I thought you had some real low light moments from Stafford in this game which that has happened over the final month of the season. Like he did not play well in the Falcons game. Like it's, he has not been the fire breathing dragon in the final month this season that he was for a good chunk of this year. And then I Think you've really seen some of the deficiencies on defense. And I think that you see how gettable the corners are specifically and what this unit looks like if they're not truly dominating up front. And so I'm with you. Like, I, I feel like the defense in the first half of this season being as, as good as it was being like a top three to five unit, that's what made them feel so scary. Combined with what the offense is, I still think the offense is at its best the scariest offense in football. Like, I still truly do believe that. But I think that was complimented by how well the defense is playing. And now if the defense is going to feel as ordinary as it has at times because the corners are such a concern, then they just start to feel like a slightly different team.
- [63:58]
Derek Classen
And I think another thing to point out because we mentioned this on the preview show, Quinton Lake was back this week and I think in theory that's huge. He just did not. He wasn't him 100%.
- [64:06]
Robert Mays
It was up and down. Yeah, he made a lot of plays early in the game, especially in space, but when, I mean, he had the PI. At one point in this game, like anything down the field or anytime they.
- [64:16]
Derek Classen
Picked him, he just couldn't recover.
- [64:18]
Robert Mays
Yes. And that the, the, the huge completion that they had to Coker down the left sideline, that was one of the plays where he gets picked in traffic and Bryce Young drops it over to Coker, who also had an excellent game today. I mean, this is. We'll talk about the, the Panthers future on the Monday show, but I thought that the Bryce Young to Jaylen Coker and TMAC connection looked about as good in this game as you could want if you're a Panthers fan for what this thing could be moving forward.
- [64:42]
Dave Hellman
Touchdown to Coker was.
- [64:43]
Robert Mays
So that was a gorgeous throw.
- [64:44]
Dave Hellman
That was his gorgeous throw. But to the point we were just talking about before that. And, and I mean, I, I would be one of those people, like, I, I was just saying, like, whoa, the Bears, they don't, they don't want any part of the Rams coming to Chicago.
- [64:58]
Derek Classen
But.
- [64:59]
Robert Mays
And you know, I would rather play the Eagles.
- [65:02]
Dave Hellman
You might rather play the Eagles. I'm. What I'm maybe.
- [65:04]
Robert Mays
Five famous last words. I think I'd rather play the Eagles.
- [65:06]
Dave Hellman
Even still playing the Rams isn't as terrifying as it sounded six weeks ago between, like, I think the, I think at the very least the Bears offense is equipped to move the ball against these guys. And you get a game in Chicago in Weird conditions, who the hell knows? I mean, obviously I'm getting way far ahead of myself, but the Rams look a lot more mortal than I think the collective consciousness would have you believe these last four or five weeks.
- [65:34]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I don't know. I'm looking at like cycling through some of these plays for the Panthers defense on the final drive. Like some of it is a little bit frustrating, but they also like sent a couple pressures on in that.
- [65:44]
Dave Hellman
No, they did blitz a couple times.
- [65:45]
Robert Mays
Yeah. Like it's just.
- [65:46]
Dave Hellman
And again, J.C. horn was in the, he was in the match medical tent and so, you know, without, without your argument best or second best defender. I get why it's frustrating, but I lean toward thinking damned if you do, damned if you don't.
- [66:00]
Robert Mays
Yeah, the, the most important play on that drive before the Parkinson touchdown is the in breaker to, to Puka. And I believe the outside corner on that play is Lathan Ransom, who is a rookie safety.
- [66:15]
Dave Hellman
Yeah.
- [66:16]
Robert Mays
And so that, that's just one of those things where it's like, what are you supposed to do in that moment?
- [66:20]
Dave Hellman
They had to bring in. I just had it up. They had to bring in a guy who had played like 50 snaps all year, Caleb Evans.
- [66:26]
Robert Mays
I think he was on the other side on that. On that completion to Puka. So thankfully for the Rams, I mean just in terms of like their own sanity and like, if you're a Rams fan and understanding like what's on the line in this season, they squeak by. But. And if you're a Panthers fan, I can understand all the what ifs you're going to go through in that game. But. But just a really impressive showing from a young team that was supposed to get beat up in this game against a 10 and a half point favorite.
- [66:51]
Dave Hellman
Like I said, you're mad in the moment as a Panthers fan, definitely as a Panthers coach or player. But by like tomorrow morning you're like, yeah, that was, you know, we, we gave it, we gave him, we gave him hell. And it was like a, you know, the first successful Panthers season in a decade. That's pretty cool.
- [67:09]
Derek Classen
Again, this was in the moment. It feels bad, but if you told any Panthers fan going into the season that if you played a game that went down to the wire against a basically healthy Rams team in the playoffs, you would take whatever got you there. You would take that 100% of the time.
- [67:26]
Dave Hellman
Tell a Panthers fan that after Puka's the opening score, like where they just toyed with them down the field and you're just like, oh my God, what are we going to flip to in the second half when this is out of hand? And I mean obviously that's not what happened.
- [67:41]
Robert Mays
Like we said, we're going to do post mortems for all of the playoff losers from this weekend on the Monday Hangover Show. So we'll have considered kind of thoughts and looks at the packers, the Panthers, the two teams that lose tomorrow on Monday night. We will do that postmortem with the recap because obviously we only have one game so just be on the lookout for that. We've got a recap tomorrow night on Sunday. We'll be in these exact same chairs at the exact same time breaking down all three games games. And then we'll be back here on Monday nights with a live recap after that game. So be be on the lookout for all of that. Got a lot of good stuff coming your guys way. For now, that is all we've got from one heck of a day in the NFL. We'll see you guys tomorrow.
- [68:31]
Ayo Akemolere
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- [69:21]
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- [69:51]
Anna Lynn Guzik
I'm Anna Lynn Guzik, founder of the Anti Nihilist foundation, publisher of the Conversation Conversationalist. We're truly independent non profit media. No overlords, no corporate agenda. Just stories that matter. From climate justice to reproductive freedom to fighting back against kleptocracy. Now we're bringing those stories and voices directly to you with season two of the Conversationalist Podcast. Subscribe now wherever you get your podcasts.