← The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
TAFS Goes Camping: Conversations with The Athletic's Bears, Raiders and 49ers beat writers
01:21:39
Loading summary
Transcript237 lines
- [00:00]
Podcast Host
Tonight's meal Tilapia Surprise with boiled cabbage. Begin cooking steps 1 through 50 now.
- [00:05]
Commercial Announcer
Are you kidding me? Making dinner shouldn't feel like doing a thousand piece puzzle. With Blue Apron's new one Pan Assemble and Bake meals. The hard part's already done. Pre chopped ingredients, zero stress. Just assemble, bake and enjoy. No complicated steps. No mountain of dishes. Try assemble and bake today. Get 20% off your first two orders with code APRON20. Terms and conditions apply. Visit blueapron.com terms for more AI.
- [00:33]
Matt Barrows
Had.
- [00:34]
Robert Mays
The time of my life. Hey, I never felt this way before.
- [00:40]
Commercial Announcer
From building timelines to assigning the right people, and even spotting risks across dozens of projects, Monday Sidekick knows your business, thinks ahead and takes action. One click on the star and consider it done.
- [00:52]
Bombas Advertiser
And I owe it all to you.
- [00:56]
Commercial Announcer
Try Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use on Monday.com.
- [01:03]
Podcast Host
This episode is brought to you by Royal Match, the free to play mobile game played by millions of people around the world. Football season is busy and whether you're traveling for the holidays, heading out of town for a game, or just stepping away from the family for a few quiet minutes, Royal Match is a great way to unwind. It's free to play, works without Wi Fi, and has no ads, so it's perfect for flights, road trips, or relaxing on the couch during a break in the action. Did I mention you can also play it while listening to the Athletic Football show or catching up on the latest NFL storylines? Royal Match is a classic Match three puzzle game with great graphics, tons of creative levels, and fun challenges to keep things fresh. You help King Robert restore and decorate his castle as you progress, and with over 10,000 levels, there's always something new to enjoy. Millions of people are already playing, so join the fun. Download Royal Match for free on the App Store or Google Play today.
- [01:51]
Kevin Fishbane
Foreign.
- [01:56]
Robert Mays
To the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. It's our second Beat Writer notebook of the weekend. I did not end up going to.
- [02:03]
Rob
Las Vegas for Raiders Niners joint practices. Unfortunately had some stuff going on at home where I had to be at.
- [02:08]
Robert Mays
Home, but I still wanted to talk.
- [02:10]
Rob
To our beat writers there because I'm so interested in both of those teams.
- [02:13]
Robert Mays
So we did that, chatted with DeShawn Reed, chatted with Matt Barrows, just about.
- [02:16]
Rob
The state of both of those teams.
- [02:18]
Robert Mays
And then me and Kevin Fishbane got.
- [02:20]
Rob
Together at House hall to, you know.
- [02:22]
Robert Mays
Go over my personal insecurities, fears, hopes.
- [02:25]
Rob
Dreams as they relate to this version of the Chicago Bears.
- [02:28]
Robert Mays
We're kicking it off With Kevin.
- [02:30]
Rob
Let's get to that conversation right now. Joining us now from House hall in Lake Forest, it is one of our Bears writers at the Athletic, I have to say that again, Kevin Fishbank. How you doing, man?
- [02:44]
Kevin Fishbane
I'm good. It's good. Good to be back on with you. Good to be back at another Bears training camp where Halloween hopes are high.
- [02:52]
Rob
I, I guess, I mean, my, my first question and it's always tough. I, I have a ton of respect for this media core. It is. I was literally thinking this while I was watching the press conference with Ben today. It's crazy how many people are in that room compared to other teams. It's wild, like the amount of people who cover this team. But I think the questions asked and the answers is an incredibly high level discussion for a press conference setting. Like, you guys do a very good job and he's willing to engage with you in a way where you do get something out of that where I think that's not always the case. So I appreciate that. But there's also a lot of coverage of this team based on what the press corps looks like. And I think a lot of the tone of it from afar has been that the offense has been a mess. And so I am curious, as someone who is here every day and has watched this is the sky is falling mentality around all this right now warranted in your mind?
- [03:43]
Kevin Fishbane
Well, I mean, we are prone to gallows humor around here.
- [03:47]
Rob
Yes.
- [03:48]
Kevin Fishbane
And I think I told you, I joke with you last week. I said, here we go, Rob, we can, we can talk about another Bears first round quarterback who's having a shaky second training camp with a new head coach and new scheme and the defense is playing well and hey, that backup quarterback's looking pretty good. And are we worried that this first round pick like all those things, it's like hard to like, we can, you know, logically say Caleb Williams is not Justin Fields is not Mitch Trubisky. Like I, I will say, like, those are different people, these are different coaches they're dealing with. But it's hard to sit here in this building and go through some of this stuff year after year after year and not be like, shoot, I remember what happened last time.
- [04:29]
Rob
Yeah, I've seen this movie before.
- [04:30]
Kevin Fishbane
Yeah. And what, what I think that what I always try to write and always try to say is I think the difference is Ben Johnson. I think that, you know, Ben Johnson is not Matt Ibrfoose is not Matt Nagy. And I think that matters this off the offensive lines that those other guys had. And then the question is Caleb, what, What is Caleb Williams? So to answer your original question, I think it's been up and down. I think it's been bumpy at times. Bumpier than you'd expect. Probably my, my biggest concern is I feel like Caleb Williams has not been as accurate as he was last year. Just like the precision of his throws last summer stood out more than this summer. Now I don't know if that is a hyper analysis and I'm not taking into account X, Y and Z, but that, that's the only thing that's like I'm a little like, I gotta feel like I've seen him miss more throws than I'm used to. But like there have been some really good practices. I mean you were just out there with me and you know, the way he handled the end of half drill, made some big time throws and that's what he's capable of. So I'm just, I'm fascinated to see, as we all are, what it looks like obviously on September 8th and how much his run game is going to support him, how much his defense is going to support him and, and then how much some of these playmakers are going to support him. Because Unlike those other two guys in their second seasons, maybe Mitch and 18, like he does have a lot around.
- [05:51]
Rob
Him, there's no doubt. I mean that room is crowded and it's a good problem to have, but it's still something to sort through which we can talk about here in a second. We don't have to go over the whole Ben Johnson thing again. It was the correct process in the moment right when where you are as an organization with the quarterback, his timeline, needing to get him to the right place, Picking a guy who has been the coordinator of one of the best offenses in football for multiple years without an elite quarterback. It's the right pool of people to choose from, right? This is the correct process. If this doesn't work, I'm at least okay with how they went about finding the coach and why they landed on him. Two specifics from this practice and I don't know if I'm allowed to say any of this, but I'm going to anyway. That I think lead me to have confidence in what the structure of this looks like. That two minute show that you're talking about and the today was like an unscripted practice, they're calling it live and so it felt more like a game. And so there was a third and eight or a third down where there was A pressure look from the defense. There's trips to the left. Caleb is looking at the pressure look. Flashes a little hand signal to Colcomett. Little quick out, balls out immediately they get the first down. And so I think that the flexibility built into the offense and his feel for that. That's a good moment. There's another third down where it line. They line up in a spread formations three by one to the left side. And he looks at the defense, sees the spacing. They shift into a more condensed formation. But he has a man zone tell based on that immediately finds all mate is a key is underneath. He gets the first down. That those little details of like how making the game easier on the quarterback, those are the things you're going to see. And so that creeping up more and more and even just seeing a little bit of that on day one, it's like the details of this offense are going to set the quarterback up for success. I don't know when I've ever been able to say that with any sort of confidence at this stage. And I think if you're trying to convince yourself of how it can be different, that is the basis of how it can be different.
- [07:40]
Kevin Fishbane
I want to get to all that. But one quick thing. Zacchaeus, he's been one of the more impressive guys and you got to see him and made one of his better days.
- [07:48]
Rob
Super useful player.
- [07:49]
Kevin Fishbane
Just like he's there when you need him to. He's cut, he catches everything thrown his way. Eventually it's going to be Luther Burden in that role. Presumably you know when, when Burning gets there. But like when they made that signing in March before drafting Luther Burden, you talked like that was a guy where I was like Washington did not want to lose him and but you know, they and the Bears got him and he just kind of has been the safety valve for Caleb so that Roma Dunes had one of his better practices today as well. There was a, there was a ball that was maybe not fully on target. That was one of those where he just went up and grabbed it, which is what he did in college so often. But you're right because like we, we look at, we always talk about this. The best play callers put their quarterbacks in the best positions to succeed. And you want your play caller to cater his offense to the talent around him and not force his guy to play in his system and all those things. And it's just like if Caleb Williams the theory of the Bears is we are making training camp as hard as possible for him so that when the regular season comes, and it's Brian Flores in Week one and it's the Lions defense in Week two, and on and on and on. He's like, oh, this is fine, because I had to deal with Dennis Allen and this nonsense all summer. So that's their kind of. They're prefacing it with that and then just giving him these answers, giving him these options and trying to find ways for him to make it easy.
- [09:09]
Rob
The push and pull and how they're weighing. This is very interesting to me because I'm talking to somebody on the offensive staff today and trying to get a little bit more detail about, okay, this. On this idea of we're giving him everything and then we're going to pare it down. What does that entail? And what I was told is, essentially, they haven't repeated stuff. It's all new almost every single day. And when you're doing that, you can't get better at anything. It's mostly about learning what you're bad at. And that's what Ben Johnson said this morning. He's like, we're still in the process, and the reason that we're doing it this way is that we have no idea what's going to work and what doesn't. And we're deciding what we're going to pare down when we get an understanding of we're good at this, we're bad at this. I'm curious how you find the balance. Like, how much time do you need to start working on the things you're good at in order to get really good at them? By the beginning of the regular season. But it's still. We're still three weeks away. But if you're trying to be optimistic about why it's looked uneven is that they haven't tried to get good at anything. It's solely figuring out what is going to work and what's not. And so hearing that, I can try to spin it in my mind of, okay, I feel a little bit better about what I've heard about some of the bad practices and how uneven it's felt.
- [10:16]
Kevin Fishbane
And my question to them would be, do you need to see a practice in which Caleb Williams is just automatic, in which Caleb Williams just, you know, pew, pew, pew, and just hitting guys left and right and leading drives downfield and building a ton of confidence and putting up touchdowns and getting first downs? Like, do you need to set up a practice for him to do that by putting in some of the things that, you know he's good at? Like, is that important to you to see.
- [10:39]
Rob
To build confidence, too, right? To, like, have him see the ball go in, I think will be helpful.
- [10:44]
Kevin Fishbane
Yeah. It's. It's the. It's the basketball. It's. It's seeing the ball go through the net, seeing, you know, the proof positive, what you're doing. We haven't seen a practice like that. There have been some good practice. There have been some not so good. There have been some ones that are herky jerky. And so, like, I sit here and I'm like, I would just love to be able to tell everybody who's not able to be here. This was the day. This was the day that Caleb Williams became quarterback. But that is probably not the way they're looking at it.
- [11:09]
Rob
I don't think it is. Whether they should or not, I think is an important question.
- [11:12]
Kevin Fishbane
And, like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if, like, if that's just a me being like, again, sitting here throughout all these different quarterbacks who have come through here and being like, I was waiting for the day that Mitch would put it all together. You're waiting for the day that Justin will put it all together, and you're kind of like, all right, well, now it's Caleb. Is. Is there going to be these days where you can get to. Because, like, what's the number? Like, the number one question that you get when you're walking around town is, how's Caleb going to be? Yeah, how are the Bears going to be? And when people ask me that, I'm like, well, I can only judge off what I see at training camp. And, like, I haven't seen enough practices for me to feel super confident this thing is going to click early. And that might be okay. My whole thing, Robert, and I mean, you would have a great perspective on this because of, you know, covering the whole NFL is like, what should our patience level be with Caleb Williams?
- [11:55]
Rob
I think it has to extend into the regular season and a decent amount into the regular season.
- [11:59]
Kevin Fishbane
I think so, too. When you look at golf and you look at all these different guys who have these just different career arcs and like, Jaden Daniels and what C.J. stroud done, is it, like, screwed up the paradigm in a way? Like, this is hard. And this. What Caleb Williams had to go through, from going from Matty Rufus and Shane Waldron to Ben Johnson and Declan Doyle, like, that's a huge shift for somebody who's 23 years old and. And every, you know, everything that he's going. Going through. So it's like, I want to be able to sit here and say, let's see this. Let's see this out. But then you look at the roster moves Ryan Poles made. You look what's around him. You look what other quarterbacks are doing. It's like, well, how much. How long can do we have to wait for us to be able to say, yes, he's the guy. They're good to go. They can move forward.
- [12:40]
Rob
I mean, I don't know if you even have that this year. I think what I want to see them start to turn a corner is probably midway through this season. I think that's enough. You're like, we know what we're good at. We know what he's good at. We know how to put him in the best positions to succeed.
- [12:52]
Kevin Fishbane
So I want to ask you, when the season ended last year, like, did you feel, I know the Bears have their guy?
- [12:59]
Rob
No.
- [13:00]
Kevin Fishbane
Right? And like that. Like, when people ask me last year, they're like, what. What are expectations? My.
- [13:04]
Podcast Host
My.
- [13:04]
Kevin Fishbane
I would always say to them, you want to know in January, you want to feel the way that Texans felt. Now, maybe that's too high of a bar, but you want to feel the way the 2023 Texans felt at the end of the season. Like, no matter what happens, we have our guy. And you just couldn't. It was hard to feel that way about Caleb. You saw a lot of good things in amidst a mess last year, and so now it's like, it's almost like, take two. You want to get to January and be like, okay, we know the head coach is here, and now we know we've got our guy.
- [13:30]
Rob
And I think that's. That's a fine timeline. If it takes that long, I think that's okay. But if you're telling yourself right now we know he's the guy, you're lying to yourself. Based on what last year looked like, I completely understand how it unfolded the way that it did because the circumstances were so bad. But I think the circumstances are good enough. Now, based on multiple seasons of Ben Johnson being the architect of one of the best offenses in football, combined with the personnel that they put around him, even if it's imperfect in some ways, I think there's enough here to know by the end of this season which arrow. The direction. Which direction the arrow was pointed.
- [14:00]
Kevin Fishbane
And the Bears have never had anybody like this with Ben Johnson.
- [14:02]
Rob
There's no doubt they truly never hired someone with this background ever. In my lifetime, there's never been a guy who was the architect of his former offense as an offensive coordinator hired to be the head coach, Matt Nagy was the offensive coordinator for Andy Reid. No one with this background has ever been the Chicago Bears head coach. In my 37 years on this planet.
- [14:19]
Kevin Fishbane
Honestly, the closest thing that ever got to that in terms of a play caller might have been Adam Gase, which sounds wild when you. When it came out of my mouth, but when they brought. When John Fox brought gase here in 2015.
- [14:32]
Rob
But that's. That's a Peyton Manning thing.
- [14:34]
Kevin Fishbane
Yes.
- [14:34]
Robert Mays
Like, anybody who's been pushed off of that paid Manning Gase.
- [14:37]
Rob
Mike McCoy, like, it's.
- [14:39]
Robert Mays
There's been a lot of missteps pulling off of the Peyton Manning tree is all I'll say.
- [14:43]
Kevin Fishbane
Right. But it is somebody who, like people regard, you know. Yeah, you had to acknowledge the pain, Manning, but at least you're like, okay, this guy knows what he's doing. We've got this proof that knows what he's doing. But you're right. I mean, the Ben Johnson thing, like, you just look at what the Lions did and it's like, wow. Like that he did it. He did it. The highest possible level in football.
- [15:02]
Rob
And I like Jared Goff. Jared Goff is not one of. Jared Goff is not Peyton Manning or Josh Allen or Lamar Jackson. I think it's totally fine to say that. Let's talk about the personnel on offense and just some of the questions that need to be answered. When you're talking about when the switch kind of when. When they turn the switch, when it's like, all right, now we're starting to prepare for the regular season. Seeing Ozzie Tropeo at right tackle today, that's a signal in my brain of we're starting to get there. Because if he's going to be your swing tackle, you need to see him start getting reps at right tackle so he can play it if Darnell Wright gets hurt. And so that, to me, is a sign of how the left tackle thing might be trending, where if Ozzy's getting snaps on the right, he might be the swing guy. And when Braxton Jones gets healthy, it might be his job to lose. So I think that's really the only unsettled spot on offense as it currently stands right now. Correct.
- [15:46]
Kevin Fishbane
Correct. What you would love to see is Braxton Jones get every single first team rep at left tackle, if that's the case, which didn't happen, that you had Theo Benedet, who is an undrafted guy out of Canada who didn't play last.
- [15:57]
Rob
Year, super curious about why they did that today.
- [16:01]
Kevin Fishbane
And to Bennett is credit, like one of the first practices out here. I remember him stepping in as the second team right tackle and I was like, oh, okay. That's like, for him, that was a big step to be in the mix, to be one of the guys who makes the roster. That's how we were talking about it when we first week. I'm like, that's a big deal for this guy. And now he's suddenly like the guy who was fourth in the left tackle competition was out there with the starters today. And maybe that's just today. Maybe his crying on the God, she comes back from the most recent injury he has, he mixes in. I just like, you want your left tackle, who's going to be your left tackle in week one to be getting as many reps as possible. Maybe Braxton Jones doesn't necessarily need as many because of his experience, I don't know. But that, that was interesting today to see what they did with Ozzie. Because you wanted to come out of the preseason game and show up today and have one guy be the guy at left tackle. Maybe it's asking too much, but that would have been nice for them to come out preseason game and go, oh, yep, we know that Braxton's our guy, or we know that Isaiah guy instead. It's okay. We, we need to get Ozzy some work on the right side. He's not ready to be our starter yet. This Canadian guy, Theo Benedet, is showing some spark and Braxton Jones still needs some work. And that's not, I mean, again, all that matters is the guy in week one does a good job. Maybe it doesn't matter how you get there, but you'd like to see that guy get more reps.
- [17:22]
Rob
This team has done a lot over the course of this training camp. In the interest of competition. They've done some weird stuff, right? Like they could say whatever they want when Jalen Johnson's healthy. Tyreek Stevenson is starting across from Jalen Johnson. It's not Nayshaan Wright, but I think that they've been really conscious of this and they've been conscious of this in the messaging and how they've handled practice reps. And so I'm inclined to think there's something involved there where, like, in the interest of competition, we're going to do something a little bit weird. If I had to put money on it right now, I think Braxton Jones would be the starting left tackle in week one, and I think that's okay. People on the outside that maybe don't understand this roster quite as much I think are looking at this and being like, well, a second round pick might start at left tackle and kind of ignoring the fact that Braxton Jones has been the starting left tackle for the last two years. If Braxton Jones is your best offensive lineman when healthy, that's a problem. If he's your fifth best offensive lineman when healthy, that's okay. And I think that's probably the direction this is headed where Trapio will be the starter starting next year when Braxton Jones moves on. But for right now, the guy with experience, there's at least a backstop and a floor that he's going to give you at that spot and I can get on board with that.
- [18:23]
Kevin Fishbane
Best case scenario for the Bears is Braxton Jones starts every game at left tackle, does a fine job, signs a four year, $120 million deal somewhere else, you get the comp pick and you feel really good about Ozzy starting in 2018.
- [18:36]
Robert Mays
I think that's exactly right.
- [18:37]
Kevin Fishbane
That would be, that would be the best case scenario from a roster standpoint. And obviously the, the way that you feel good about that is knowing is making sure you feel good about Chappello or Amogachi or and or Amagachi. You got two day, two picks back.
- [18:49]
Rob
There and the hope is that Kieran can be the swing tackle moving forward and that I think that's a totally fine thing for this to all play out in the receiving core. I think it's mostly going to be a matter of how, when does Luther get on the field and you know, how often does he play with those other two. The way that they see the skill, position, talent is the way that I understand it is even if Luther and DJ both have this real run after catchability, Luther's route running allows him to play in the slot and be a little bit more of a nuanced player than DJ might be. So the idea, because when they drafted him I was like, there's a little redundancy here, but they don't necessarily see it that way. So I think having Luther, D.J. and Rome all play together, they don't really see an issue in that. And 11 personnel and I assume as we get a little bit deeper into the season, that will be the trio that we see more often than not.
- [19:35]
Kevin Fishbane
Yeah, I think so. I mean Burn is just going to be a playmaker. He went to the second best journalism school in the Midwest. I don't think it was a journalism major, but should note that just for our listeners.
- [19:43]
Rob
I appreciate that.
- [19:44]
Kevin Fishbane
But yeah, I mean the after the catch stuff, it is fun to. I know it's practice and they're not hitting well. They did do some hitting today. But like when he catches the ball, the way he turns and goes like that first step is really, really fun. I mean, you saw it at Mizzou, especially in 2023. So yeah, I think that, that he's that guy. I think they know they can put DJ anywhere. Yeah. In the backfield, which we've seen a lot of in camp.
- [20:08]
Robert Mays
That's another thing. It's going to be so nice to.
- [20:10]
Rob
Watch DJ Moore deployed in the way that DJ Moore should be deployed. Again, an imperfect player, but Ben Johnson knows how to use him in a way the previous staff obviously did not.
- [20:18]
Kevin Fishbane
How are you going to feel about the wide receiver screens?
- [20:21]
Rob
Fine.
- [20:21]
Robert Mays
Because I think that they'll be well designed. I think they'll be well applied. This isn't John Shoop world. Like I feel good about how those.
- [20:27]
Rob
Are going to look.
- [20:29]
Kevin Fishbane
It drives Bears fans nuts, you know, for. There was a time that they did it with, with Justin because it's like he and Caleb just like they got to get the ball out quick and this is the best way to do it. And then people go crazy because the guy will get tackled four or five yards behind the line. But if you watch Detroit and you watch some of these ways they do it, if it's designed up well and you get the ball in these guys hands and it makes things easier for Caleb, he can make those throws. And the other thing too, it's with Caleb's arm angle, he can do a lot of different things with those plays. I just, I think it's important to prepare Bears fans that you might see some wide receiver screen.
- [20:58]
Rob
You should. Yeah. With the, with these pass catchers, you should see some of those because those can be explosive plays. The tight ends.
- [21:04]
Robert Mays
I. I'm not really worried about it.
- [21:06]
Rob
Like, I think that Cole is somebody that you probably need to manufacture space for Coulson, somebody that is somebody that can create his own separation. And so in 12 personnel, I actually think this idea, when you're living in 12 personnel, the goal is for. If they line up in nickel, we can grind them down with the two tight ends. If they line up in base or some sort of big nickel, we have a tight end that we think is a matchup advantage on that bigger nickel player. I think with these two guys, if Colson is who they think he is, that is a realized thing for this offense. In a way where it's theoretical for other offenses. So how many snaps he's going to get and how it all shakes out, I don't really care. I think that their 12 personnel has a chance to be a strength of this team in a way that it's not for a lot of other teams. If it's Cole or Colson and 11 and who gets more snaps and all that other shit, I don't really care at this point.
- [21:52]
Kevin Fishbane
Colson is smooth and it's been. It's been fun to watch him. I think he has been as advertised, and he does not look like a rookie out there, which is a high compliment. I want to see him, obviously, in games and see what he does, but you can see how different the two of them are a little bit, and how you can use them, both of them. The one thing Ben Johnson has talked about before is the early part of his NFL career being in Miami in the same division as New England, and the way that New England deployed tight ends. And now he was talking about this through the lens of how the Patriots would find different ways to beat you every week between who the matchup was, you know, you and I always. Oh, no, I'm blanking on the running back's name. Jonas Gray.
- [22:33]
Rob
Yeah.
- [22:33]
Kevin Fishbane
Was that the guy who showed up against the Colts? Nobody heard him. He ran the ball like 30 times. I always think about that game. And Ben Johnson was on Miami staff for those, you know, for those years when the Patriots were just dominant on offense and they had Gronk, obviously, and then they'd mix in some other tight ends there in 13, 14, 15. But he saw that, and he saw the way that offense just used so many different guys every week. And I think that a lot of that has kind of shaped his perspective on how to. How to attack teams.
- [22:59]
Rob
I think that's right. And I think that as you try to figure out, like, roles and workloads for fantasy and this team, I think, has real potential and people trying to tap into that, it's going to be frustrating.
- [23:08]
Kevin Fishbane
Belichick was known for as a fantasy owner, he was the worst.
- [23:11]
Rob
And I think that's what's going to happen is it's going to be different every week based on what's going on. And I do think that all the pieces can come together in a cohesive way. That makes sense to me. The running back spot is the curiosity. After DeAndre Swift, how do you think this all ends up shaking out?
- [23:25]
Kevin Fishbane
Well, I'm really glad that I got a lot of praise Sent to me about common on guy on when he was drafted because I was kind of like I would respond to people go we're talking about 7gr pack. I loved watching a nun guy. I watched a lot of big ten football. Too much big ten football some might argue and I love the guy in college but I understood seventh round pick and I go guys he's a seventh round pick. Let's slow down a little bit. But then you've seen him out here and he pushes the pile forward. He doesn't go down at first contact. He's been, you know, Roshan Johnson's out right now. Roshan has had injuries throughout his career. Now I say that saying I was really eager to see Roshan Johnson because you'd want to talk about another guy who came out of the draft with a lot of praise.
- [24:01]
Rob
Yep.
- [24:02]
Kevin Fishbane
I mean talking about him on the field and off the field is just the perfect guy. So I think if Mananga is your, you know, I think you're okay with those two.
- [24:12]
Rob
You know it does seem like it might be trending that direction where he might actually be Roshan out.
- [24:16]
Kevin Fishbane
Well, especially if Roshan can't get back on the field or can't get back right away. I think that's something to watch. I think, you know, Bears fans can be excited about it. I think DeAndre Swiss had a fine camp. I know it's really hard to judge running backs in training in a training camp setting but I think he's been fine. I know look, he's never going to be what they paid paid him. That's fine. And I think it probably hurt that he was in the same class as Saquon and Jacobs and Henry and the guys that obviously were dominant last year and he wasn't. But if you go watch the run against Washington, run against Green Bay, I know I'm cherry picking like London, you know when they, when the offense was playing well you saw what DeAndre stuff could do so. But you need. I just don't think that he could be, you know, I don't know 250. You don't want to be 250 carries. Like that's where you, you're going to asking Manangaya Roshan Johnson to need that guy to really make this. It's like I mean it's a totally. You can't compare it to Montgomery and Gibbs. Like that's how far away this combo is going to be. But you have to look at that as like a reference point of what Ben Johnson wants.
- [25:20]
Rob
You need an innings Eater.
- [25:21]
Robert Mays
Right.
- [25:21]
Rob
And like, I think that's the back they don't have right now unless. But on guy kind of takes that role and it seems like he might. On defense, there are just fewer questions to me.
- [25:29]
Robert Mays
Right.
- [25:29]
Rob
Like Jalen Johnson, based on everything Ben Johnson said today, it sounds like he's on track to start Week one. And they're going to start, I think, folding him into some practices at some point to get him some mental reps. But he's a veteran. He'll probably take to it. I do think Tyro Stevenson will win that other outside corner job. Kyle Gordon's supposed to be back. We know who the linebackers are. We know who the safeties are. The defensive line has a lot of new bodies this year. I think the argument is probably we're going to come in waves even if we have no stars. I can talk myself into the defense being pretty good. And I don't think there's a lot of, like, unsettled personnel questions with that group. Do you have any? Like, where do you sit with that?
- [26:02]
Kevin Fishbane
No. I mean, I'm. I want to know what answer is if for number three, defensive end. Because if you're going to slide sweat or odangbo inside on passing downs, you need that guy, whether it's Austin Booker, Dominic Robinson to be good. But do you want to take Grady Jarrett or Javon Dexter off the field and those downs, too? Like, I don't.
- [26:21]
Rob
I think with Grady, it's probably more about workload over the course of the year as an older player. And I think that third defensive end spot is probably the one that's worth bringing up, like, because Booker was really good in the preseason opener.
- [26:31]
Robert Mays
But I think.
- [26:31]
Rob
I think they like Dominique Robinson. The front office does.
- [26:34]
Kevin Fishbane
They've been really impressed with him. He had a really good spring. He's a good summer. They've always known he's an incredible athlete. You know, played quarterback, wide receiver before he moved to defensive end. So maybe they're getting the most out. It's interesting seeing guy like him, guy like Noah Sewell who's had a good summer, you know, guy like Booker, guys from the previous coaching staff who were just kind of like these day three picks who were not doing enough in the regular season are now having these strong summers. So now you guys see in the regular season, my. My biggest reason for hope on the defense is the three GU guys I would highlight as being some of the best performers this summer are Montez Sweat, Tremaine Edmonds and Jaquan Brisker. All the first two, you need them to play at the level of their salary.
- [27:15]
Robert Mays
Just.
- [27:15]
Rob
Just based on resource allocation.
- [27:17]
Robert Mays
You need them to be very good players.
- [27:18]
Kevin Fishbane
And Sweatspin Sweats has had moments of dominance and he. And he hasn't missed a practice. Same with Edmonds. He's had some moments where he's flashed and you're like, okay, that's the Tremaine Edmonds that they sign. Maybe it's. Maybe again, you go back. Probably overpaid. I hate saying overpaid. Forget I said that. Because it's free agency. Yeah, it's what you do. But he's only 27. Like, there's something. There's room for him to. He doesn't have to. You. The way you were talking earlier about Braxton Jones, you know, Jermaine Evans is on a higher level and he's getting paid on a high level, but he doesn't need to be the best player on your defense. And then Brisker has been flying around and I just think that was somebody. When he came out, there was so much excitement about what this guy could be as a playmaker. Unfortunately, the biggest worry with him is you. You just can't control it. There's just nothing you can do about it. You just have to kind of hope and pray that he avoids another concussion. And he's talked about he switched helmets and he wants him, he knows, to keep his head out of the play. But it's been fun to see him playing like the player he was supposed to be. So the fact those three guys are having good summers, the fact those three guys have been out there every day, I think is really positive.
- [28:21]
Rob
I think the ceiling of the pass rush will ultimately go a long way in determining how good the defense is. And if that group can play more like more than the sum of its parts. If Montage Sweat can be, if not a dominant rusher than like a definitive number one rusher, like somebody defenses have to consistently worry about and all the other pieces fall into place and you get better play from Dio than you got in Indy, which is the entire point of signing second contract free agents is that you're trying to project into the future. I can squint and see them being a really good unit. I get that.
- [28:48]
Robert Mays
I don't think there are that many.
- [28:49]
Rob
Holes personnel wise, even if the ceiling is probably limited because there are no dominant players up front. If this can be the 8th best defense in the league, this is all going to be about what Ben Johnson gets out of the quarterback. And again, like we said at the top. It's the same movie we've seen over and over and over again. I just personally have think that this one ends a little bit differently because I can't approach it any other way.
- [29:10]
Kevin Fishbane
And look, they had the best defense in 2018 and we saw the wonders that did for Mr. Bisky in that offense. And we also saw an offense that year that took the. Took the league a little bit by surprise. I think a lot of people didn't really know what to expect out of Matt Nagy and they benefited from an incredible season. Treat Cohen and offensive line health and a lot of different things. So now you have a guy you feel good about and if they can be a top 10 defense again, it just, it's field position. You have the special teams too. It's a good special teams unit. So I look this you. The Bears fans have always wanted a quarterback they can win because of, not a quarterback they just win with. And I think Caleb Williams is undoubtedly talented enough to be that guy that he. You can put. He could put the team on his shoulders, but right now you want to give him as much support as possible as he grows into this thing. And I think that they built this roster in a good way and we didn't, we touched on it earlier, but the Tuney Dahlman Jackson trio in the interior, I think is just going to make such a massive difference for him.
- [30:10]
Rob
No doubt.
- [30:10]
Kevin Fishbane
I mean, how many times did you watch him, especially late last season, he's escaping the pocket way too early because he just didn't trust the guys in front of him. And I think that's going to really, really help the run game, obviously, but also just giving him that comfort that he can make some place from the pocket.
- [30:26]
Rob
The pieces are there. The pieces are there at the skill position, talent. But, you know, none of this matters if the quarterback doesn't come together with a play caller. And I think I have reason to believe that can happen. But we're in wait and see mode until it does. Kevin Fishbane. Sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always good to see you. We'll do this very soon. All right.
- [30:44]
Kevin Fishbane
Thank you.
- [30:46]
Podcast Host
This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp New Year. New you rolls right off the tongue, doesn't it? It's a phrase that's become so familiar that new you almost automatically feels like it comes after New Year. But maybe you don't really need a new you. How about just a less burdened you? Therapy can help more easily identify what weighs you down or holds you back by offering an unbiased perspective to better understand your relationships, motivations and emotions. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences in their 12 plus years of experience. An industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time time from their tailored wrecks. With more than 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is one of the world's largest online therapy platforms, having served more than 5 million people globally and it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on more than 1.7 million client reviews. Better help makes it easy to get matched online with a qualified therapist. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com Maze that's better. H E L P.com what if sports were traded like markets? Now you can put your sports IQ to work in real time with Robinhood Prediction Markets. It's not you against the house, it's you participating in a live market. You can buy or sell your positions live all game long. Use your sports knowledge in the moments that matter. Robinhood Prediction Markets changes the game. It's people moving the action so when momentum shifts, you can move with it. I always knew the game but never had a dynamic way to apply that knowledge. Now I can actually take part. Live in a market powered by people, you're no longer just a spectator. Play by play, you decide. Trade every play with Robinhood now available across the U.S. download the Robinhood app now to begin Futures and clear Swaps Trading involves significant risk and is not appropriate for everyone. Event contracts are offered by Robinhood Derivatives llc, a registered futures commission, merchant and swap firm.
- [32:57]
Bombas Advertiser
People keep asking me about my 2026 resolutions. Sure, I've got the usual goals. My reading list is a mile long. I've got to get in shape for a wedding. Maybe I'll finally learn that second language. But this year there's a new one at the top of my list. Get comfy. That's where Bombas comes in. They're bringing serious comfort to all my everyday go to. They've got me covered. On the gym front, the all new Bomba sports socks are engineered with sport specific comfort for running, golf, hiking, skiing, snowboarding and all sport. This year I'm planning to be at the gym on the regular and these socks are perfect for it. They're cushioned where I need it most, sweat wicking and loaded with other tech features to keep me comfy and locked in. And for those everyday around the house resolutions, Bombas also has you covered with the comfiest footwear imaginable. Their new squishy Saturday suede slip on shoe looks perfect for comfort on the go. Maybe I can wear them to check out that new bookstore in my neighborhood I've been meaning to visit. And underneath it all, Bombas has the softest base layers that'll have you rethinking your whole wardrobe. Bomba's underwear and T shirts are flexible, breathable and buttery smooth premium everyday go to's that I won't leave leave the house without and for every item you purchase, an essential clothing item is donated to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased one donated with over 150 million donations and counting. Head over to bombas.com athletic and use code athletic to get 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A S.com athletic code athletic at checkout.
- [34:37]
Robert Mays
Joining us now, it is our Raiders writer here at the Athletic desean Raiders. Sean, Great to see you man.
- [34:42]
Deshaun Reed
Thanks for having me man. Good to see you again. How you doing?
- [34:45]
Robert Mays
I'm bummed that I could not come to Las Vegas this week. I was originally going to come there for Raiders Niners joint practices. I could not do it any longer based on some stuff going on at home with our new dog. So I missed that. But I still wanted to talk to you and Matt Barrows, our Niners writer, because I had already planned on doing it and I'm fascinated by this team. So that's one of the reasons I was bummed that I actually couldn't make the trip. I want to start on a big picture level here. The Raiders, over the last couple seasons, you're bouncing between head coaches, you're bouncing between general managers. It didn't feel like there was much of a cohesive or coherent direction. I think that's fair. I don't think that's not ungenerous to say about where the Raiders were. You bring in Pete Carroll, you bring in John Spytak, and I think even if Pete Carroll's this deep into his career, the hope is that you're moving towards stability. And so I'm just curious, on a day to day level, as somebody who's covered these teams for multiple years, what differences have you felt between the Pete Carroll Raiders and some of the teams that you have covered over the last couple seasons?
- [35:43]
Deshaun Reed
I think the biggest difference so far this year is everything they've done has made sense, which I know sounds like a low bar, but given that they've had as many head coaches and GMs as they had since I've been covering a team which isn't that long, that's progress for them.
- [35:57]
Matt Barrows
Right?
- [35:57]
Deshaun Reed
And I think they were very intentional in off season about making sure, sure that they got their GM and head coach on the same page. They, you know, had all these kind of weird situations arise from firing people in the middle of the season and things of that nature. And going back to this off season, initially they just fired Antonio Pierce. People might forget, you know, initially they, you know, were keeping Tom Telesco around, and the plan was, you know, to hire a new head coach and have them work together in sort of an arranged marriage. But then they huddled together, and by they, I mean Mark Davis and minority owner, you know, quotation marks around my Dori owner, you know, Tom Brady, you know, got together in Vegas and had some meetings and talked about it, and they just decided that it'd be best to start with a clean slate. And then that's when they moved on from Telesco and moved forward with their process. And, you know, everybody knows, I'm sure you, as a Bears fan, you know, you know, they went hard for Ben Johnson, did not get them, but they did have a plan, you know, that wasn't, you know, all their chips weren't in the same table. You know, they landed on, you know, Pete Carroll and then obviously, obviously brought in John Spytack, who has a lot of history with Tom Brady from playing together at Michigan, also working together with the Bucs when they won a Super bowl down there. And so there's a lot of alignment from top to bottom there. You know, there's familiarity with the gm. Everybody knows who Pete Carroll is, You know, so even though Spytek hasn't worked with him in the past, he respects him, given his accomplishments. And so I think they started off from a good place. And then when you turn to the roster, you have Max Crosby being that leader and that figurehead on the defensive side of the ball. And then you fix the biggest problem that this team had from a roster perspective. Quarterback and getting Geno Smith and also a guy that sets the tone on that side of the ball. And so this roster still needs a lot of work, in my opinion. But when you kind of just look at their big ticket moves since this year began hiring Pete Carroll, Spy Tech trading for Geno Smith, extending Max Crosby on a deal that's already aged really well. When you look at some of these addresser contracts out there, everything sort of makes sense. Does that mean that they team is going to be a playoff team this year? Like, probably not, but I do think that they can start trending in a positive direction and you can kind of see the vision for what they're building for, you know, moving forward.
- [37:56]
Robert Mays
Does it feel different day to day, just even being at training camp, what the practices feel like? I mean, there are elements that just feel different this year because Pete is there. And it just feels like a more, I don't know, buttoned up NFL type of operation.
- [38:10]
Deshaun Reed
It feels more professional, I guess, is the way I would put it. You know, it feels like everybody kind of knows what they're doing and they're all working towards it the same thing. And I want to say, like last year under Antonio Pierce, like the team culture was already in a good place. Like, it was very positive. You know, he had that part down. The players really rolled for him all the way until the end. It's just sort of those ins and outs of being a head coach that he just didn't have a great grasp on yet. And I mean, the gap in terms of experience between him and Pete Carroll is so vast that you would. You're not surprised by that. But that stuff matters and, you know, and it comes through in the way that they construct their coaching stuff, their day to day operations, all of that. But at the same time, it's not like it's all serious and in business and button up. Like the start of every practice, for example, they do this weird little like, drill where the coaches are like losing their mind. They usually play like some kind of hard rock or like a loud rap song with an aggressive beat or something. And then everybody's just like running around. Somebody has like a giant Pete Carroll fat head. He's in there running around and it's like just an energy drill, you know, kind of just. And they have the basketball. You see the basketball hoops in the indoor facility. They still do the shit like that. Like the Pete Carroll kind of fun, loosey goosey stuff. And he's, you know, I saw him at one practice, he like jumped in a tush push for some reason, like he didn't tell anybody he's going to do it. And he got stuck on the bottom of the pile. So you see stuff like that that like, you know, feeds into the teen chemistry stuff. But he's also like, he's been doing this for a million years and knows what he's doing from operational standpoint. So you kind of have the best of both worlds with him.
- [39:38]
Robert Mays
This offense, I think is an object of fascination, curiosity for a lot of people heading into this year. You know, Geno being dropped into a situation where your best pass catcher is a tight end from last year. You draft a running back in the top 10. It's just an interesting collection of pieces that I actually have some hope for on the other side. Like, I think this can be a fun offense to watch. One of the early returns. Been just watching Geno day to day with this collection of pass catchers with Chip Kelly.
- [40:04]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [40:05]
Deshaun Reed
So I think it's been a little bit up and down throughout training camp and I think a lot of that has to do with what I think is going to be the central issue or, you know, kind of deciding factor for this offense is that offensive line. And that was a unit that, you know, it was really rough last year. They were one of the worst run blocking units in the league and they didn't pass protect well either. And he didn't really do much about it in the off season, which I think surprised a lot of people, including myself. Like, they signed Alex Capa. That was really their only, you know, addition of note. And he's already pretty much been working with the backups at this point. And so it's basically the same group of guys from last year. And so you're putting a lot of stock in offensive line coach Brandon Carroll, Chip Kelly and Pete Carroll collectively being able to coach that group up. I don't know how good that's going to work out. And when we saw with Geno Smith the last couple years with the Seahawks, they had a really rough offensive line. They couldn't really run the ball. And that's when we saw his interception numbers start to go up and he kind of fell off from that first breakout year that he had with the Seahawks. And so that's kind of the big question. And that's been, you know, sort of the fulcrum of this offense to this point. I do think they've gotten, you know, I mean, obviously it's a massive quarterback upgrade in Geno Smith. He's a guy that can make difficult throws even when it might not look open. He can navigate pressure in the pocket. He's mobile enough to escape and move around and mitigate that. Ashton Genty, you know, is a talented back, not just working out of the backfield, but you've seen him splitting out wide, working from the side like running like legitimate downfield, like receiving receiver routes, kind of like you see from a guy like CMC or Camara. So they're going to use him in that way. Brock Bowers obviously was an all pro and Jacoby Myers, like he's a guy that he's not, you know, probably not a number one receiver, but he's a really, really good number two receiver and a consistent guy from that standpoint. So they have those pieces like you're saying on offense. And Chip Kelly, I think has shown some growth from the first time that he was in the NFL. But that offensive line is sort of that big question mark is like, are they going to be able to make this all work? You know, can they run the ball? Can they protect Geno Smith? I think that's still a question that's kind of hovering over this group.
- [41:55]
Robert Mays
I have some faith in the offensive line and the individual pieces on the offensive line. I thought DJ Glaze was their right tackle. He was a third round pick last year, had some nice flashes as a rookie, Justified bringing him back as a starter at right tackle and just kind of figuring out what the interior would look like. And I'm going back and watching the offensive line in the second half of last season, I actually liked a lot of what they got from Jordan Meredith who was playing guard for them last year. And then when they signed Alex Capo, when it seemed like they were going to move Jackson Powers Johnson, their second round pick from last year, over to center, it felt like Meredith would be the odd man out. But he's been playing center for a vast majority of this training camp and they've actually moved Powers Johnson to guard. Have they explained the thought process behind why they thought that was their best five even though it seemed like Powers Johnson had been drafted to play center?
- [42:39]
Deshaun Reed
Yeah, so part of it. And like jpj, you know, was drafted play center and he prefers to play center. I mean, he's been pretty candid about that publicly. But you know, like they're trying to get the best five out there. And I think with Meredith, while they liked what he showed last season, Pete Carroll, he just thinks he's too small to play guard. Like he said that in the press conference. And so he thinks he's a really good player, but center will be a better spot for him. And when you're kind of taking into account like Jackson Powers Johnson, you believe he's a better player than Alex Kaep at this juncture his career. And so it just makes more sense to slide him over because they Believe he could be as good of a guard as he is. In their mind, they think he could be a all pro player at either position that one day, you know, if he develops properly and so slide Meredith over to center, moving him over to guard, which we saw him play last year. He started games at left guard and right guard. Jackson Powers Johnson. So it's not foreign to him. It's not something he hasn't done before at the NFL level. You know, I think that's how that, that group of five came together. I know a lot of people have been worried about, oh, do they not like jpj, like what is. It's nothing like that. It's just a matter of, you know, what unit gets your best five on the field.
- [43:43]
Robert Mays
And that's not surprising because again, I thought Meredith actually showed pretty well last year. And him being one of their best five, I can totally understand that. Based on what we saw from him last season, the pass catchers, we know what Brock Bowers is going to be. I think Jacoby Myers is a very nice player. With better quarterback play, I think he can be productive. How they're figuring out these other two outside receiver spots and the way that this is shaken out, I mean, you did your 53 man roster on the Athletic this week and you had Dante Thornton, who is their fourth round pick from this year, just penciled in as a starter with Trey Tucker. I mean, that's a ton of speed and it feels like that's kind of how they're constructing that room. But it's a little bit of a surprise. No. To have a fourth round pick, just have that clear of a path to a starting role here on August 11th is when you wrote that.
- [44:26]
Deshaun Reed
Yeah. Especially considering they drafted a receiver in the second round. A lot of people's attention in Jack Besh. But part of the reason why I think Besh has fallen behind in that competition because it's pretty much been since OTA's Dante Thornton, Trey Tucker, that's been the starting two outside receivers since then consistently. And so it was decided pretty early on. Yeah, like it's been that way since, you know, they got here, essentially. But with Besh, when you look at his college tape, whether he's at LSU or tcu, really, his best snaps came when he was kind of in that big slot role. Right. And you already have a guy in Myers who's essentially a slot receiver. You have Brock Bowers. When he's not there, Brock Bowers is your slot. And so where are the snaps at for Beck?
- [45:07]
Matt Barrows
Right.
- [45:08]
Deshaun Reed
Unless he can be a guy that can consistently win outside and his game, you know, he just doesn't have those that speed, you know, to be able to pull away from defenders on the outside to beat guys off the line of scrimmage in that way. And so he's a little bit redundant with Myers, and I think that's been the issue. Whereas Thornton, while he didn't have much college production, he's six' four, six' five and ran a four' three flat. So, you know, he obviously has the measurables. He's somebody that, that Geno Smith is very comfortable with, you know, throwing up those jump balls with him. And Trey Tucker, you know, is kind of the inverse of that. He's smaller at like 5, 9, 5 8, but he also has 4, 3, 4, 4 speed. And he's become a more nuanced route runner as his career has gone on and has had a pretty good training camp as well. And so both of those guys are speed guys on the outside. You have Myers as sort of that, you know, slot guy working on the inside. There just hasn't been room for Besh. And I think this group that they have is really light in terms of being, you know, proven production. Like, Trey Tucker's been okay playing player throughout his career, like more like a receiver, three or four, and now you're, you know, banking on him to be a starter. And Dante Thornton, we haven't seen him play yet at this point. And so I get why people were worried about that outside receiver spot. And we kind of saw that against the 49ers today in joint practice. Those guys were, you know, they were pretty much pressing them almost every, every snap. And those guys were struggling a little bit to get off of that. And so we'll have to see how that, how that goes when the season rolls around. But that seems like that's going to be the plan. Like, I don't see that group changing at any point before the season gets here.
- [46:29]
Robert Mays
And Myers is a free agent after this season.
- [46:30]
Rob
Correct.
- [46:30]
Robert Mays
So you essentially have a succession plan with Jack Besh there. This is probably should have started with this when talking about the offense. What is this thing going to look like, like, Chip Kelly first go around as like an offensive coordinator in the NFL after all the time he spent in college. Structurally, like, what do you think the DNA identity, kind of the things this team hangs its hat on on offense? What should we expect from that? I have full disclosure. I have not watched their preseason game yet, so I've not gone back and studied it so just structurally, I'm very curious about this.
- [47:01]
Deshaun Reed
I'll tell you now, don't waste your time watching it because you'll get nothing out of it. They basically ran nothing. They ran shotgun the entire game. They didn't take a single snap under center. They just ran the most vanilla thing in the world. So you didn't see anything in a preseason game. You won't see anything on Saturday. But in terms of what the offense is going to look like, I think it's changed a lot from what people probably are accustomed to when they think of Chip Kelly. Those earlier years in the NFL or even with Oregon. And we saw it a little bit at Ohio State last year at the college level, but I think particularly given the lack of receiver depth, you're going to see a lot of 12 personnel with this group. With Brock Bowers you talked about, but also Michael Mayer, He's a guy that people forget. A couple years ago he was the consensus number one tight end coming out of college and expected to do big things. Hasn't quite panned out yet. Last year he had some personal issues. He was away from the team for about six games. He said he's back now. He's in a better place mentally and emotionally and physically and seems to be back to himself. And they're expecting big things out of him. And so I think they're going to roll with that 12 personnel group pretty often. I think they let the league last season in 12 personnel usage. It just wasn't very effective. So they're hoping that that's better for them this year. And then anytime you draft a running back with the 6 overall pick, obviously you're planning to run the shit out of the football. So it's going to be a lot of running the ball. They kind of switch to this zone based blocking scheme which they experimented with last season. It didn't go well with Luke Getze as their offensive coordinator. Then they kind of switched back to the gap scheme. So now they're going back to the zone scheme. And I think the makeup of their offensive line that kind of fits their guys best. Like they kind of have those lighter, more athletic offensive linemen. They don't have those big bruising type guys outside of probably JPJ is the only guy that fits that mold. And so I think it's going to be, you know, kind of more old school than most people would probably expect for Chip Kelly. A lot of running the ball, a lot of heavier personnel usage. He's still going to mix it up. Of course, you know you're going to to see that 11 personnel and splitting it out wide and kind of those little screens and short passes and getting guys the ball out in space and allowing them to create. But I think that's kind of what it's going to look like for him. You know, Chip Kelly's kept it pretty close to the vest in the preseason games and even in practice. Like he's not doing anything too crazy to this point. But you know, it's going to be a lot different than probably what most people are expecting out of Chip Kelly.
- [49:06]
Robert Mays
Bowers as a Gino believer genty with somebody who likes Jacoby Myers and somebody who believes this offensive line can be a solid group. Right. There's no stars here. Colton Miller is a good left tackle. I think that they have some young promising pieces. If you can get to middle of the road with that group, I think that's a win. You combine it with everything else. I'm excited to watch the Raiders offense. I cannot say the same about the Las Vegas Raiders defense. And I think that Patrick Graham has done an excellent job as a defensive coordinator for pretty much his entire tenure, whether it was the Giants, whether it's been with the Raiders. There's a reason that Pete Carroll retained him when they came in with a new staff this year. It's hard to upgrade from a defensive coordinator of Patrick Graham's caliber. My question is what the hell the personnel is going to look like. Obviously you move on from Christian Wilkins and I bring back Malcolm Koontz hurt last year. He's back in a one year deal, really flashed in 20, 23. He's a player worth betting on. Other than those two guys, Max Crosby and Malcolm Koontz coming back from injury. What part of this defensive front should I feel even decent about? Because it's nothing but questions here. Like as you look at position, even the corners on this team, I understand the story you're trying to tell yourself with that the interior defensive lineman on this team and the depth on the defensive line, it feels like you're holding onto your hat. Is anybody surprised where I should feel better about this than it looks on paper?
- [50:27]
Deshaun Reed
Not really. And I mean, okay.
- [50:31]
Matt Barrows
I think the.
- [50:31]
Deshaun Reed
Elephant in the room here is obviously the Christian Oak situation. Like, you know, last year they signed him to a massive extension. You know, they expected to have this monster defensive line with Malcolm Koontz and Max Crosby. And I don't think anybody really blinked at that contract. Like it made a lot of sense, but it just didn't pan out. I mean, he only played five games last year, had that Jones fracture. And then it became this weird situation this offseason where, according to, you know, sources, you know, the team believed that he needed a second surgery in order to repair that foot and be a able to play. And they discovered that in March, but he didn't want to get the surgery. And that remained the case by June. And then that's when they voided the guarantees in his contract, ultimately ended up releasing him in July after some other things happened off the field between him and some. Some teammates. And, you know, that was a guy they were banking on. I mean, Christian Wilkins, I mean, you know, people, you know, you can kind of. I know he's only had, like, one Pro bowl in his career, but he's one of the better defensive tackles in the league. I mean, Patrick, he's an incredible run defender. And so to take that out kind of unexpectedly at this last minute, you know, it was after free agency, it was after the draft that you knew that you weren't going to have him around. They just weren't really prepared for that. And so you kind of just have a bunch of guys around that defensive tackle. You know what I mean? I mean, you have Jonah, Lulu and J.J. pagoose and Tonka Hemingway, a bunch of guys that are either rookies or guys that haven't done anything yet. Adam Butler, I would say the last couple years, he's been a nice player for them as a rotational sort of pass rusher.
- [51:57]
Robert Mays
I do like Adam Butler. I think it's like a penetrating pass rusher. He's got something to him, but that's really where the list ends.
- [52:02]
Deshaun Reed
Yeah, like, that's it.
- [52:03]
Rob
That's it.
- [52:04]
Deshaun Reed
And he's. And he's not really known for run defense either. And so I think that's a huge concern, especially when you factor in their linebacker position. Like, if it was 2019, you feel great about their linebackers, but today, because it's Jalen Smith, it's Jamal Adams, Devin White, Landon Roberts, Jermaine Pratt. So it's like a bunch of guys that, like, they were good at some point, but are they. How good are they in 2025? Like, I don't know, you know, So I think that that middle, kind of the spine of the defense all the way through, I feel pretty good about Jeremy Chan. I think he's been a good player, but there's some real concerns. And you saw that, I mean, right off the bat against the Seahawks. I know it's preseason, but they gave up 170 yards to the Seahawks against and that was what their backups playing like. They didn't even play the starters and so it would look pretty rough. And I think that's going to be like a huge concern for this defense is what's the answer there? Because I don't really know what it is.
- [52:54]
Robert Mays
Seems like a Landon Roberts has kind of established himself as the starter at mike linebacker, which I totally understand what a Landon Roberts is. He's a downhill thumper. You can rely on him on early downs. We know what Elandon Roberts is at this point. How real is this Jamal Adams thing? Because it seemed like he got signed as almost like a curiosity with Pete Carroll kind of giving him a shot. They move him to linebacker. They explicitly tell him they're moving him to linebacker. And by all accounts, even things that you've written, it sounds like he has a real shot to get playing time at that weak side linebacker spot next to a Landon Roberts. Where are we at with that right now with Jamal Adams?
- [53:26]
Deshaun Reed
Yeah, I mean, he's in the mix for the starting job at will linebacker, which sounds kind of crazy to say given he's never played the position before this season, but it made sense in theory. I mean, you know how athletic he is, his instincts, how effective he's been at the A blitzer throughout his career. Coming down from that safety spot, he gained a little bit of weight, so he's heavier and able to throw his weight around in the box a little bit more. But he looked pretty natural out there in his first preseason game against the Seahawks old team then he had three sacks or three, not three sacks, three tackles, and also had a pressure on Jalen Milroe. And so it looked pretty good. And they just don't. I mean, another part of it is they don't really have a great answer there otherwise. I mean, it's Devin White, who's coming off of a rough couple seasons of his career. Jermaine Pratt, you know, I think is the guy that, you know, when he signed kind of at the end of OTAs, it was expected that he would probably just take a hold of that job because I think he's been a pretty solid player with the Bengals the last few years, give or take. He's probably better in pass coverage at this point in his career, but he hasn't really been doing too much in training camp since he got here, and I think he's left it pretty open still. And so Jamal Adams, there's nothing guaranteed, but I wouldn't be surprised if he a starter Week one, like he's definitely going to be in the mix there. And I think also another part of the equation, like they don't really have a Nickelback, which is another issue for this defense. They lost Nate Hobbs or they let him walk in free agency to the packers and they didn't really replace him. So Jeremy Chin has been lined up at nickelback a lot, but he's not always going to be there. When he's not there, it's been Darnia Holmes, who, you know, I mean, at this point his career is not doing much for you. So we've seen him like work some three linebacker sets in there, which, which like, I don't really know how much that's working in 2025, you know, either. So I, you know, it's going to be weird like, so he might just end up playing kind of in some funky lineups that they, that Patrick Graham has to get a little bit creative to try to fill in some gaps on this defense. But it seems pretty likely that he's going to have some type of role on this defense at linebacker.
- [55:15]
Robert Mays
When Jeremy Chin steps down to play the nickel, who's the other safety?
- [55:19]
Deshaun Reed
So it was Lonnie Johnson.
- [55:20]
Robert Mays
Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Lonnie Johnson is now out for the season, so who the heck is even better?
- [55:25]
Deshaun Reed
He might come back. He might tell you. They say he broke his fibula. You know, it sounds like there's a decent chance he might return somewhere around like the mid season mark, but still, that's a lot of games. You're going to have to do something without him. So far it's been Chris Smith, who was a good college player with Georgia, but you know, the Raiders drafted him a couple years ago, hasn't done anything in NFL. He's just been a special teams player. And so yeah, that's it. That's it right now. So.
- [55:49]
Robert Mays
All you need to know about how particular Pete Carroll was with the cornerback body types that he likes is that I think you could make a real solid argument that this was one of the more unsettled cornerback rooms in the NFL when it came to proven talent. Even the guy it seems like they're betting on more than anybody else. Eric Stokes, formerly of the packers as a first round pick, has really struggled to stay healthy over the course of his career. So it was a precarious situation from the start. And then they traded a guy who played a lot of football for them last year, Jacori and Bennett for defensive tackle depth because he's not big enough to play for Pete Carroll. So now you're rolling with Darien Porter, potentially. Who, Third round pick Eric Stokes, who, again, how many games has Eric Stokes played over the last few years? And Darnay Holmes, who you just said they're trying to keep off the field because they want to put another linebacker out there. Tell me why I shouldn't be terrified about this.
- [56:42]
Deshaun Reed
I don't really have a great answer for you, like, terms of, if you are Raiders fan, why you shouldn't be terrified. Because it's all traits, right?
- [56:48]
Kevin Fishbane
Like, that's it.
- [56:48]
Deshaun Reed
Like, that's. That's, you know, it's guys that are 6, 3, ran 4, 3 40s at some point in their lives, they're athletic. Pete Carroll, guys like, that's pretty much how they built out their cornerback room. Decameron Richardson is another player who he started out of necessity last year. He was really rough. Like, it was a rough go for him. He's been in the mix on the outside as well, with Stokes and Porter trying to, you know, jockey for positioning as of late. And, you know, this is like a new thing. As of this week, Cubitt Blue Kelly has also been in the mix at getting starting snaps at cornerback. So it's not. It's not the most impressive collection of names. And the Jacorian Bennett trade, like, I think it. It was very clear, like, from practice, you could tell he was running with, like, third stringers at some point. He just wasn't in the plans. It wasn't performance based, though, because he looked really good to me. And last season he only played 10 games because he had a torn labrum. But you look at some of his advanced statistics, like some of those numbers, like yards per target allowed, he was like. He had the same number as, like, Pastor's hand. So he was really good last year. And so just trade out a guy like that because he's five' ten and not six' three. Like, I don't know. That kind of struck me as odd, especially given how precarious the rest of the group is. And if the pass rush isn't amazing, I think this is gonna be a group that gets picked on pretty much every week because Eric Stokes, at this point in his career, he's okay at best. Darian Porter, you like the physical skill set. But. But, I mean, the guy has hardly played cornerback. Like, in college, he had more special team snaps than he had snaps at cornerback because he was a converted wide receiver. So, like, I know he had Tariq Willen in the Seahawks and that Worked out great. Like maybe he's Tariq Willin, but you know, it's just, it's hard to imagine that this isn't an issue this season. Right. And so I think it's gonna be something. You kind of have to take their lumps this year.
- [58:32]
Robert Mays
So let me walk through what I see as like the ideal two year plan for this version of the Seahawks. Based on what they did this offseason this year, you just want the offense to be a good offense from day one. Like if they're not a top 10 offense, then somewhere in the middle of the league and where it's like, all right, this is proof of concept. The offensive line gels, some of the young receivers show flashes. Brock Bowers emerges as a star. Ashton Genti does the same. And we're a competitive offense from the start and we can build on this moving into 2026, we have 80 ish million dollars in cap space. Next year we'll be able to spend a little bit to microwave the defense. And by the time we get to next season, we'll have enough firepower on both sides of the ball. Competitive in the afc. Do you think that is a fair representation of how they're thinking about the way the next couple years should go?
- [59:16]
Deshaun Reed
Yeah, I think if you gave them some troops there, I'm like, that's the answer, right? I mean all you have to do is look at their moves this offseason. Like they had a ton of cast space this year and they really didn't make that big splash move outside of obviously trading for Geno Smith and giving.
- [59:28]
Robert Mays
Him, yeah, 35 year old quarterback.
- [59:30]
Deshaun Reed
Right, right. But like they didn't really do anything else, you know, even though they knew they had these issues at offensive line, at cornerback, at nickelback, linebacker, more depth of defensive tackle, they're just like, eh, you know, we'll just save this money and roll it over till next year. Anytime a team does that, that lets you know that they're not really pushing all their chips into the table. And I think that's smart because they took over a roster that just there's so many holes on both sides of the ball. Like unless you just have the greatest draft of all time and nail every free agency signing, this team just they're not going to be able to compete for a playoff spot this year, especially in this division, which might be the best division in football. You could argue you also don't know your roster.
- [60:05]
Robert Mays
I mean, think about when Jai Spytech gets hired. Think about how little time you have to actually evaluate where the holes are coming in and writing a bunch of checks and trying to solve every problem. You don't even know where those problems exist. And so I think we see a lot of misguided decisions when you're trying to accelerate it that quickly. Them taking a step back and saying, our swing is going to be the quarterback because we want some stability. We'll figure the rest out in time. I'm totally okay taking that sort of approach.
- [60:30]
Rob
Yeah.
- [60:30]
Deshaun Reed
And I think also part of it is this free agency class was pretty weak, I think, by all considerations.
- [60:35]
Kevin Fishbane
Yeah.
- [60:35]
Deshaun Reed
So it's like you're just gonna go give guys a bunch of money just to say you're giving guys a bunch of money. Like, when has that worked out for anybody, let alone the Raiders with all their free agency misses? We just talked about one earlier in the show, so I think it makes more sense to try to do that next year in terms of going out and getting a few guys. And then, you know, also part of it, in terms of, like, it not being like a super long term rebuild. Pete Carroll is going to be 74, you know, this year. And so, like, this isn't something where it's like they're just pushing it down the line. Like, you have to go for it pretty soon when you hire a coach that old. And so I think it is a year two type of thing. Like, all right, we're going to free agency this year. We need to get some guys in the draft. You know, obviously fill up whatever holes remain from there. And then you feel like you hope that you're in a position where you can go for it and compete in that division and hopefully make some type of playoff run. So I do think it was a two year vision kind of from the jump. Like, obviously, Peter, I know he said it like, the first week of training camp, he's like, oh, I've been winning 10 games for 20 years. Cool. But like, this Raiders team, like, if they win 10 games, like, you know, he's one of the five best coaches in the league again, you know, all.
- [61:34]
Robert Mays
Of a sudden, if they're winning 10 games, Chip Kelly and Patrick Graham are going to be very strong head coaching candidates come January. Especially Patrick Graham. I mean, I get it. I'm excited about the Chip Kelly thing. I love Geno. I think that they have some interesting talent on offense. But Patrick Graham was going to have to cook for this team to be competitive in 20. Open to that idea because he is a fantastic coach. But there just is not a lot of talent walking through that door on that side of the ball.
- [61:58]
Deshaun Reed
And we've seen him do it before. I mean, that 2023 team, you just look at the roster like you wouldn't have thought it would be anything crazy on defense and they had a top 10 defense. It's happened before, so I won't rule him out. He's one of the better defense coordinators in the league, in my opinion, even though I know the numbers don't look great. Last year so he could do it. But the odds just given the state of this roster, they're just so thin in some of these spots that it's going to be, like I said, it's going to be tough.
- [62:19]
Robert Mays
Sledding the floor on offense is going to be so much higher though. And again, this is going to be a group that I'm actually looking forward to watching. And I cannot say that about the last couple iterations of the Las Vegas Raiders to Sean Reed. Sincerely appreciate the time, my friend. Great to talk with you. We'll do it again soon. Everyone deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com switch and now T mobile is in US cellular stores. Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans plus the.
- [62:58]
Deshaun Reed
Cost of optional benefits plan features and taxes and fees vary.
- [63:00]
Robert Mays
Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits. Credit stop if you cancel any lines.
- [63:04]
Deshaun Reed
Qualifying credit required. Thy ticket Lady Jennifer of Coolidge.
- [63:10]
Matt Barrows
Well, many thanks good sir. Here is my Discover card.
- [63:16]
Commercial Announcer
They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs?
- [63:18]
Robert Mays
Yeah, they do here.
- [63:19]
Matt Barrows
Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Get it with the times.
- [63:24]
Commercial Announcer
With the times.
- [63:26]
Matt Barrows
You're playing the loot. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right? Discover is accepted at 99% of places.
- [63:33]
Robert Mays
That take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [63:38]
Commercial Announcer
If the holidays left you feeling maxed out, you don't need a reinvention, you need a reset. PURA's well being collection helps you shape the feeling of your space with Premium Smart Home Fragrance. Choose by Mood, set it on a schedule and let scent support how you move through your day. From slow mornings to quiet evenings, fragrance becomes part of your rhythm. This is your daily flow reimagined with scent. Explore moods and find your new favorites@pura.com Moods.
- [64:12]
Robert Mays
Joining us now it is one of our San Francisco 49ers writers here at the Athletic, Matt Barrows. Matt Great to see you.
- [64:18]
Matt Barrows
Good to see you.
- [64:20]
Robert Mays
Excited to do this. A team that I think justifiably, a lot of people believe is going to bounce back in a big way this year that starts with just better health, period. So that's where I want to begin this conversation. I just want like a health check for the San Francisco 49ers offense as we record this on August 14th. Christian McCaffrey healthy. Trent Williams, healthy. Where are we at with Juwan Jennings right now? Because there was a thought that this was a calf injury slash contract situation. Kyle Shanahan has repeatedly said that's not the case. If Juan Jennings is hurt right now, when can we expect to see him back?
- [64:56]
Matt Barrows
Kyle Shanahan has said that this is similar to something that he dealt with at this time last year. Now, we never got, you know, they don't have to put out official injury reports, so we never heard cafe last year. We heard more oblique issues. But Shanahan's point is that this is something he's dealt with in the past. It kept him out of practice in the past. It didn't affect him at the start of the season. So that's what the 49ers are expecting. And so he's a big part of this offense because there's not going to be any Brandon Aiyuk to begin the season and there's not going to probably be any DeMarcus Robinson, who's been a really good steady contributor in practices. So they're going to start the season with Juan Jennings and Ricky Pearsall as their 1 and their 2. It's really unclear who 3 through 5 are at this point because of those issues and because the guy who looked like he was going to be the three, Jordan Watkins, fourth round pick and I will miss, he suffered a high ankle sprain last week and he's out a month and that's going to take him out of the Sept. 7 opener in Seattle. So if you're talking about, you know, injuries and the biggest concerns heading into the season, I think that wide receiver is far and away number one without.
- [66:26]
Robert Mays
Bayouka was always going to be fragile and now it feels even more fragile missing those two guys. My assumption, we're going to see a lot of 21 and 12 personnel from the San Francisco 49ers early in the season. Would you say that is a fair solution to this problem that you guys have seen so far?
- [66:40]
Matt Barrows
Yeah, for sure. Twelve personnel. I mean, their biggest free agency addition was Luke Farrell, a who's that tells.
- [66:48]
Robert Mays
You a lot about their off season plans, right?
- [66:51]
Matt Barrows
Not. Not. And he doesn't, he doesn't catch passes. He's a blocker through and through. He's like having a third offensive tackle on the, on the field. I, I can only assume that 12 personnel is going to become a big deal for this team and that he's going to be out there. Obviously George Kittle is, is out there. Kittle has been the best looking guy this summer on the field, certainly for the offense. So that's sort of a saving grace for this team. He's been really hot. He and Brock Purdy have been in sync. Christian McCaffrey has been in the, in the offense. They're not using him a lot this summer for obvious reasons, but I do think that he's healthy. They're just not going to overuse him in August so that you don't have him in January. So I mean when you have those two, plus Brock Purdy, plus Trent Williams, I think that the offense is still going to be effective but boy, it's not full throttle at this point.
- [67:52]
Robert Mays
How's Ricky Piersoll looked over the course of practices? Because obviously he had that flash late in the season. He's a huge part of their plans, not just from an availability standpoint at the position. I think in a lot of way what Ricky Piersall brings to the offense is an indication of the evolution of this offense. We saw that start last year, which is more drop back and how open up things were. And Ricky Pearsall is just a different sort of receiver skill set than Kyle Shanahan has really sought out and I think it really speaks to where this group is going. So he's a key component of that receiver groom coming together and I think the vision for the offense coming together. So what have we seen from Peirce all over the course of the. Of two and a half weeks of camp here?
- [68:30]
Matt Barrows
So far it's been good and I think you're right. It's hard to overstate his importance for the future and the immediate future given what I just said. I mean he's going to be the starter. They're going to have to rely on him to, to get open and to catch a lot of passes early. His forte is route running. He's sort of the separator. The, you know, make sharp cuts, create space between him and the defender. Gives Purdy a good target. And to his credit, he had such a disjointed season last year for reasons we all know well, he spent a lot of time with Purdy in the off season. They worked out together in Florida. They're both from Arizona. They worked out together there. They started to really get that chemistry together and they both came away from the 24 season saying, yeah, there's room to grow there. So I think that was a big step in the right direction. You know, I was about to write back in the spring right before OTAS started that the single most important guy in otas for the 49ers is Ricky Pearsall. And lo and behold, he had a hamstring injury right off the bat. Knocked him out of all the spring practices, knocked him out of the beginning of training camp. But he came back a couple of weeks ago and he's been good. He's. He's shown up. I think some of that is fresh legs. You have to always keep in mind the new receiver is going to look splashy because he hasn't been working out for 10 straight days. But I do think that those skill sets that Shanahan identified are there. They need somebody who can beat man coverage, lots of man coverage last year after Brandon Aiyuk went out and after CMC went out as well. So they need somebody to do that. And I think that's the wave of the future. That's how they're going to marry this offense to Brock Purdy strengths and Brock Purdy's weaknesses. He's not a big armed. He's not Josh Allen who's going to find the slightest opening and fire the ball in there. He needs open receivers. He's a timing based quarterback. And so I think the thing with, with Piersall is, and you saw the Denver Broncos doing this to him in the joint practice last week. They got their hands on him. They roughed him up, they rerouted him. He's got to be able to run through that and keep that timing that he established with Purdy together, even when there are all sorts of obstacles in his way.
- [71:12]
Robert Mays
Last receiver question any sort of clarity on a timeline for Brandon Aiuk?
- [71:17]
Matt Barrows
Not clarity. Kyle Shanahan did give the most specific timeline recently. He said around week six and he said that as a sort of a catch all for anyone who's coming off a 2024 ACL. So there are three guys on this team that have that, Brandon Aiyuk being the most prominent among them. And so he said, yeah, I always think about week six for those types of guys. I, I don't think that IUK's going to be there for the first four games. I think my, my sense is that he comes back, he sees, I forget what the term is where they say that you, you can, you can start practicing with a team.
- [71:56]
Robert Mays
The ramp up period.
- [71:57]
Matt Barrows
Yeah, the window, they call it, the practice window is open. I think they'll open his practice window after week four and then he'll practice with the team in week four and week five. And then maybe it's week six, maybe it is week they play Washington somewhat ironically, since that's the team that he wanted to get traded to last year in week six. So that could be IUK's 2025 debut. Now then, then we go through the process of is this the real iuk? How long does it take for IUK to, to look like Iuk his 2023 self? So, I mean, that's probably another two or three weeks. So basically second half of the season is when you might see the quote unquote, real Brandon Aiyuk and the real.
- [72:44]
Robert Mays
Version of this offense. Because I think his role in all of this allows everything else to come together. The Christian McCaffrey being healthy part, but not really being a huge part of practices. Should we be worried at all about his physical state heading into this season? Do you think that we will see a version of Christian McCaffrey similar to the one that we saw in 2023 when he came into training camp? Health.
- [73:07]
Matt Barrows
I do now. That's because I've been watching him in the spring and in the summer, and when he's out there, he looks like himself. He's 29 years old. He has a history of these types of injuries. I mean, is he going to play 17 games? I don't know. You know, the older you get, especially at that position, the more prone you are to having something. So I just know that he looks good right now and that the 49ers are happy about that. I don't remember him getting a whole lot of run in the 2023 summer and preseason either. He worked out heavily in the spring that year and that was just sort of. Remember he had come in in 22. He was still sort of finding his timing in this offense, zone running offense. It just takes a lot of practice to do that. I think he was doing that in 23 in the spring, but I feel like he mastered that in the spring and in the summer. I don't want to say he was on autopilot, but he was. He was not, you know, pushing the accelerator down hard in 23. And yet he had the season that he did. And I think it's very similar to what he's doing now.
- [74:24]
Robert Mays
The guys behind Him. I know there's a lot of injuries there right now. I think they just brought back Jeff Wilson because they're so banged up there. Is that a situation where you think Isaac Arundo has a pretty clear path to the number two job there? Do you feel like Jordan James, who they drafted in the fifth round, could potentially be in the mix if McCaffrey were to miss time?
- [74:40]
Matt Barrows
Yeah, Jordan James is hurt too. He's got a broken finger that required surgery. So he's out. They're both out for at least a couple more weeks here. I think Orendo looked good when he was practicing. I guess the silver lining is that he's a guy that's had all sorts of lower body injuries, hamstring injuries throughout his college career and last year as well. And this is a shoulder issue that happened on a, on a kick return drill. So you see him out at practice. He's doing a lot at practice. He's not going to fall out of shape. It's not going to be that long. Ramp up when he's back. So I do think he'll be the number two. You know, the guy who's looked really good is the undrafted rookie Corey Kiner out of Cincinnati. And you know, if he plays ahead of Jordan James, this would, you know, fit perfectly into the 49ers pattern of they draft Joe Williams in 17. But it's Matt Breida, the undrafted guy. They draft Trey Sermon, but it's Jordan Mason. Yeah, exactly. There's a long history of underdrafted guys outperforming more highly drafted players, especially at running back. And it's falling into place. You know, Ty Davis Price is Trey Sermon. Both are third rounders that got outplayed by somebody drafted after them. And it, I'm not saying that Jordan James is getting outplayed. He's just not. He's just not there at this point.
- [76:10]
Robert Mays
I think I saw Trey Sermon and Ty Davis Price at some point this week. I saw Ty Davis Prices on the packers right now. So that was a moment where I saw him and then I guess Trey Sermon's on the Steelers now. I thought he was still on the Colts, but he's actually at the Steelers. I do remember seeing him at, at Sealers training camp. So those guys are still around. Just no longer a San Francisco 49ers. As someone, I just want you to what is your response to someone like me who looks at the way this team approaches the offensive line every year and finds it frustrating, the idea that Aaron Banks is going to move on it's like, all right, Ben Bartch, you're the next guy up. We're just going to get by with this. Again, it's an organizational philosophy. They clearly believe in the way that they approach it. How do they communicate to you guys why this is the way they want to build and construct this offensive line every year without a lot of high end resources.
- [77:04]
Matt Barrows
They communicated that they feel as if playmakers are more important than linemen, that if it's a choice between a lineman in the first round and a wide receiver in the first round, they're going to go wide receiver if their evaluations are the same because the, you know, they think that the gap between that playmaker in round one and the playmaker that they can get round four, round five is significant. They think that the gap between the offensive lineman they can get in round one and the offensive lineman they can get in day three is not as wide and that they can coach that guy up to be a good player. Now is that has that borne fruit over the years? You could argue, make a great argument that their issue at right guard cost them the super bowl back when they played the Chiefs in Miami in 2019 season and in Las Vegas in the 2023 season. Big mistake by the right guard. Spencer Burford in that game in overtime cost them a touchdown and then Patrick Mahomes goes down the field, scores a touchdown. They win the game. So I mean that philosophy of playing it cheap at right guard in particular, and I know they've got Dominic Puni there right now. They didn't play it cheap with him. He was a second round pick last year, but he sort of fell into that role. I think that they had drafted him thinking that he would be the bank's replacement on at left guard and he had to make an emergency substitution last year at right guard and it worked out very well. But point is, is that they're not going to pay a lot of money for guards was not a surprise when they didn't pay earned bank because they hadn't paid any guard previous to then. This is where they save money. They save money at guard and they save money at safety and that's where they go cheap. And that's their philosophy. And there are a lot of f. Robert, I can tell you that you are among thousands and thousands of 49ers observers who say why isn't this team drafting an offensive tackle high? I mean Trent Williams is 37 years old. Trent Williams has not started a full season since 2013. So more than a decade of him Missing, you know, a few games here and there. My point being is that, you know, his, his backup is probably going to come in this season. And who's his backup this season? It's the guy I just talked about. It's Spencer Burford, who's now a tackle because it didn't work out at guard, so they moved him to left tackle. So, I mean, the whole, that whole storyline is sort of fraught if you've been playing paying close attention. So that's a big question going into this season and, you know, one that they've answered, but whether they've answered it adequately, that, I guess that depends on the listener.
- [80:20]
Robert Mays
I think it's an important thing to point out for this reason, the best version of this Niners offensive things fall into place. This could be the best offensive football. We know that. I just think it's a little bit more fragile than you want it to be. More coin flips have to come up heads than you probably want for them to realize that path. And so I get all the justified excitement around this group heading into the year. But, but couple of those coin flips go the other way, and this team may be kind of fighting upstream a little bit more than you want it to be. So something to keep in mind as we kind of build our expectations for who this Niners team is going to be on offense. That's all that time on the offense. The defense is actually where the biggest questions are. So we get to the defensive line. Obviously they spend a ton of draft capital on the defensive front. Coming into this draft, they draft Michael Williams, the 11th overall pick, CJ west in the fourth round, Alfred Collins in the second round. Kevin Givens, I believe, just went on. IR has been a mainstay for them.
- [81:11]
Rob
The.
- [81:11]
Kevin Fishbane
On.
- [81:12]
Robert Mays
On the defensive line, a defensive tackle for a long time. I mean, do we just assume that for most of this season, Mikel Williams, CJ west and Alfred Collins are going to be the guys that we see the most with? Nick Bosa, are they going to rely on the young guys to that level?
- [81:25]
Matt Barrows
Yeah, there's Jordan Elliott, who's another veteran at defensive tackle. I think they'll, they'll lean on him early on for sure. But I mean, it goes back to what we were just talking about. You know, why didn't they spend more money, money bulking up the, the offensive line? Were more resources doing that this off season? Well, they revamped the entire defense practically. You know, three, three quarters of this defensive line is going to be new. It's, it's A new weak side linebacker. That's the, the Dre Greenlaw position. You know, young, young secondary. I mean they could have one newcomer Jason Pinnock from the Giants playing at one spot to open the season and Then then a 5th round rookie Marquis Segal playing at the other safety spot. So a lot of changes on defense, you know, including the defensive coordinator which is a change with a big asterisk since he's. He's been here before Robert Sala. But yeah, that's. That was the focus of the draft is the defense. First five picks were defensive players. And you're right, you're going to see a lot of those guys playing early. Mikel Williams and probably C.J. well he got injured today, hyperextended his knee in Las Vegas. So he won't be in this upcoming preseason game against the Raiders. But he's played well to this point. He's been a quick learner and has shown the strength and the savvy to I think reassure the 49ers that, that he can play early as well.
- [83:00]
Robert Mays
You mentioned the safeties and all the uncertainty there. Is that a situation where Jair Brown, is he penciled in as a starter or is that entire room kind of uncer. Uncertain with Malik Mustafa still being out?
- [83:11]
Matt Barrows
Yeah, the whole room is uncertain. Pinnock has been out recently with a heel injury. I actually think that he's the, the safest bet to start.
- [83:20]
Robert Mays
Interesting.
- [83:21]
Matt Barrows
He played for sale with the Jets. He was a cornerback at that point. He got cut, got picked up by the Giants and then Salah liked him enough to bring him back. So he's a safety now. Played a lot for the Giants in recent years.
- [83:37]
Rob
Absolutely.
- [83:38]
Matt Barrows
That just kind of underscores where this team is at that spot. I mean they just had a joint practice with the Broncos where Teleno Hufanga looked, looked really good for Denver. He was their guy in that secondary. He and Malik Mustafa looked really good together. Telenohofango was a free agent. Malik Mustafa in season finale hurt his acl. So he's one of those week six guys that I was describing earlier. So they have to sort of kind of fill things in until then. And, and I think, I mean I would guess that the day, the week one opening safeties are Jason Pinnock who I just, I just talked about and this guy Siegel who's a fifth round rookie. And that would sort of fit into this idea of okay, we're going to take our lumps early this season but we're going to get quality time out of some of the younger players. And we're going to win enough games in the first half of the season that in the back half we're going to be better for it because of all the receiver dynamics that we discussed, because these rookies are going to be more experienced and because the back half of the schedule is way easier than the first half of the schedule. A lot of home games, a lot of games against teams that were bad in 2024. I think that's where what Shanahan and the 49ers are thinking, has J.
- [85:03]
Robert Mays
Brown just kind of fallen out of favor with the staff there? Is that a reason that we're seeing a little bit of a shakeup?
- [85:09]
Matt Barrows
He's been injured, too, because everyone's been injured and he was drafted. When Steve Wilkes was the defensive coordinator on the 49ers, the coaches have a lot of say in who gets drafted. He was their top pick that year. That was one of the, the, the seasons where the top pick went in the Trey Lance trade. So Wilke's got, you know, a pretty good sway. And who he wanted to bring in, he brought in Jair Brown. He hasn't been great to this point, and I wonder if he makes the team. I, I wonder, you know, if they could get a six or a seventh rounder from the jets, which is where Steve Wilkes is now, whether they would do it.
- [85:52]
Podcast Host
It.
- [85:54]
Matt Barrows
But, you know, he's certainly in the mix to start because like I said, everybody else is injured right now. He's, he's, he'll, he'll start Saturday against the Raiders, for example. He'll start with Siegel next to him. But yeah, I think that once Pinnock comes back, he's probably the veteran of the group in there and that Siegel is sort of the rising star.
- [86:16]
Robert Mays
And the corner seems a little bit more settled in part because their third round pick, Upton Stout, has apparently been in the mix at the nickel spot from the beginning.
- [86:23]
Matt Barrows
Right.
- [86:23]
Robert Mays
So it's going to be him on the inside with the Amador Lenore and Renardo Green at the two outside corner spots. Is that pretty much settled at this point?
- [86:29]
Matt Barrows
I'd say it's pretty much settled at this point. The 49ers will never admit that they're, they're, they've circled a rookie to play in Week one, but he's been good. He's been consistently good. He, too, is injured at the moment. I don't think he'll play against the Raiders, but out of central casting for a nickel cornerback, small, feisty, quick, likes to chirp on the field. He's full of energy, exactly what you would want in a nickel cornerback.
- [87:00]
Robert Mays
They've been fantastic at identifying guys at that spot. I'm talking about Kwon Williams when Lenore was playing in there. It's something that they've been able to cycle through pretty efficiently since Kyle Shanahan got there. Now, eight years ago, my God, we're all getting so incredibly old, but we're relying on a lot of young guys on that. San Francisco 49ers defense, Chris Kasurek and Robert Sala have their work cut out for them this year, but they needed to do something because things had fallen off there in a big way.
- [87:28]
Matt Barrows
No, for sure. And that's part of the reason why they brought Chala back. He's got. He's got experience rebuilding defenses. He did that. He did that here in 17 his first year as D.C. and of course, he did that when he became head coach of the Jets.
- [87:43]
Robert Mays
Matt Barrows, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Always great to chat with you. We'll do it again very soon.
- [87:49]
Matt Barrows
Sounds good. Talk to you guys.
- [87:52]
Robert Mays
All right, guys, that's all we got. Thank you so much to Kevin Fishbane, to Deshaun Reed, to Matt Barrows. Really enjoyed all of those discussions.
- [87:58]
Rob
I hope you guys did as well. Just a quick reminder.
- [88:01]
Robert Mays
Tomorrow on the Athletic football show, the first episode of Building the Beast with Dave Hellman and Dane Brugler.
- [88:08]
Rob
Our new draft show. Kind of new, right?
- [88:11]
Robert Mays
Dan's had a draft show before, but.
- [88:13]
Rob
We'Re really launching it because we just think this is the perfect version of how to unleash Dane on all of you. Him and Dave have worked together in the past. Dave is a huge college football fan and we are pumped about what this version of Dane's draft show is going to be.
- [88:25]
Robert Mays
Obviously, the Beast comes your guys's way every single April.
- [88:29]
Rob
This is how the Beast gets built.
- [88:31]
Robert Mays
All the work that Dana's going to.
- [88:32]
Rob
Be doing over the course of the season, you guys are going to get a front row view of it. Very excited about having that be part of our plans. Hope you guys are as well. So be on the lookout for that for now. That's all we got. Appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.
- [88:43]
Kevin Fishbane
Soon.
- [88:58]
Robert Mays
Everyone deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits. They leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com switch. And now T mobile is in US cellular stores. Savings versus comparable Verizon plans plus the.
- [89:18]
Deshaun Reed
Cost of optional benefits, plan features and taxes and fees vary.
- [89:20]
Robert Mays
Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits. Credit Stop if you cancel any lines.
- [89:25]
Deshaun Reed
Qualifying credit required.
- [89:28]
Robert Mays
If you're the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, you know having a trusted.
- [89:33]
Deshaun Reed
Partner makes all the difference.
- [89:35]
Robert Mays
That's why, hands down, you count on Grainger for auto reordering. With on time restocks, your team will have the cut resistant gloves they need at the start of their shift and you can end your day knowing they've got safety well in hand. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [89:58]
Commercial Announcer
If well being means grounded in your space, start with the easiest Switch the air around you. Pura is a prem premium smart diffuser that makes home fragrance effortless. Control it from your phone, set it to match your day and breathe out the chaos. For a limited time, get a free Pura plus home diffuser when you subscribe to your favorite fragrances for 12 months. This is restoration, not reinvention. Grab your free diffuser@pura.com.