← The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
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- [00:00]
Robert Mays
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- [00:39]
Dave
They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs?
- [00:42]
Robert Mays
Yeah they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Geth with the times. With the times.
- [00:50]
Zach Berman
You're playing the loot.
- [00:53]
Robert Mays
Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?
- [00:55]
Zach Berman
Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [01:04]
Robert Mays
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- [01:06]
Dave
With one creaky old phone system, missing.
- [01:08]
Robert Mays
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Dave
It's time to break up with the.
- [01:13]
Robert Mays
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- [01:29]
Dave
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- [01:35]
Robert Mays
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- [02:06]
Dave
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- [02:10]
Robert Mays
Quo no missed calls, no missed customers. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Today is all coaching cycle, all the time. We've done a few of these shows, but I mean, the news has been never ending. I mean, there's so many different things that we still haven't got a chance to hit. Got a couple head coaching hires to talk about, really one that we haven't hit in any other capacity. The Browns hired Todd Monken. We dug into everything that could mean for Cleveland, chatted about Jesse minter and Mike McCarthy filling out their staffs, the jets and just the Everything that's going on there, essentially firing every coach they had on staff. And what that plan might look like dug into the coordinator hires for these teams, the Cowboys, the Titans, the Buc Chiefs, the Packers, the Dolphins. And then there were two of these discussions that I wanted to have with people who are authorities on the subject matter because I feel like there's just so much to sort through. One is the Bills hiring Joe Brady to be their head coach. Joe Biscalia, our Bills writer at the Athletic, joined me to dig into that. We talked about it for a good 20 minutes. We could have talked about it for a lot longer. Why they landed on Joe Brady, what the upside is of that, what the potential downside is of that, what it means for the defensive side of the ball. Really enjoyed that conversation with Joe and the other one I wanted just some better insight on was what's going on with the Eagles offensive coordinator search. Obviously they miss out on Brian d. And Mike McDaniel. They still haven't made a decision. It feels like now they're taking their time because the pool of candidates has shifted. There's just a lot to sort through and I trust Zach Berman to help me sort through it. And so that's what we did today. Zach joined us to kind of make sense of what's going on with the Eagles OC hire. So digging through all the news, Joe Biscalia on the Joe Brady hire and then Zach Berman on why the Eagles haven't hired an offensive coordinator. Let's get to all of that right now. We were going to do a mailbag today. It was going to be kind of a end of season pre super bowl wind down mailbag and the NFL coaching cycle.
- [04:16]
Dave
Said you very loudly and aggressively.
- [04:19]
Robert Mays
That's exactly what happened. And so there's just so much coaching news to dig through and you guys hit some of it on the post mortem show. But many things have happened.
- [04:27]
Dave
I wanted to do more, but I just knew that within 48 hours we would be under an avalanche of more news, which is exactly what happened.
- [04:35]
Robert Mays
So we're going to try our best today to scoop up everything that has happened. We're recording this at 2:09pm Central Time on Thursday. I make no promises about anything that happens after this as it relates to the Cardinals or the Raiders or any assistants that are going to get hired while we're recording this thing.
- [04:51]
Dave
I'm so excited to dig into this with y'.
- [04:53]
Robert Mays
All.
- [04:53]
Dave
I wore My best Matt LaFleur, Kevin O', Connell, Mike Vrabel outfit that that's only useful if you're watching. But I got the puffy vest, I got the hoodie. I'm ready to talk coaching you.
- [05:04]
Robert Mays
You are a man that has worked in an NFL building before and understands the general vibe for most of the people who and what they wear in that situation.
- [05:11]
Derek
Can you actually wait, which coach do you most associate with the vest? For me it's actually Brian Flores. Like the Brian Flores loves the puppy vest.
- [05:19]
Dave
I think it's LeFleur all the way. Like he is almost always wearing some sort of vest. But yeah, Flores is a good shout. Vrabel does it a lot. It's definitely, it's in vogue right now. And yes, like inside the building. I mean if you have a wardrobe in your office when you get to work and all you have to do is send it downstairs to get washed, like why would you ever wear anything else? It's amazing.
- [05:41]
Robert Mays
It's the Jim Harbaugh school of fashion. We have a couple of these hires or non hires that we're pushing off to later in the show because I actually wanted to talk to people who know more than we do about these things. And so the Joe Brady hire with the Bills I feel like is such a strange endpoint to what has been a strange couple weeks for the Bills and not even like shitting on it. Just landing on Joe Brady at the end of what was kind of a strange set of decisions from Buffalo. I just wanted to talk through that with somebody who understands that franchise job is came on. We talked about it for like 20 minutes. Just trying to figure out what this all means, where the Bills are going to go. And then I also the Eagles offensive coordinator search I think is a layered discussion to say the least. And so Zach Berman joined us after that jobiscali conversation to just chat about where the Eagles offensive coordinator situation is, why it's taken so long, why some of these guys might have passed on the job. So that is the reason that the three of us will not hit either of those decisions or searches in the course of the show. So let's dig into the things we are going to talk about today and let's begin with the Cleveland Browns hiring Todd Monkin to be their off it was the offensive coordinator. The Cleveland Browns hiring Todd Monkin to be their head coach, which is a different thing.
- [06:55]
Dave
One level up.
- [06:57]
Robert Mays
Your Dave, your response, your your initial reaction when you saw that the Browns had landed on Todd Monken Surprise.
- [07:05]
Dave
Mainly because it sounded like if you were trying to read the tea leaves and connect the dots, it Sounded like it was going to be Nate Shieldhouse. Like all the reporting. Diana Rossini, I think we mentioned it on the Hangover show that the Browns flew out to LA to talk to Nate Shieldhouse right after the Rams got back from Seattle. And if you're doing all that, that that's a full court press. That's like we're gonna get him in a room and we're not gonna let him leave. It felt very much like they had their guy. And so when I heard it was Todd Monk and I was like, well, A, that's not Nate Shieldhouse and B, it's the opposite. Sort of higher in the sense of like experience, age, history with the organization, history calling plays. Not to say that it's good or bad, but it just felt like other than the fact that they're both offensive minded head coaches, it just felt like a very big veer away from the guy that looked like he was going to get the job on Monday morning.
- [07:59]
Robert Mays
There's a lot to sort through here, right? I mean we've heard all about. I think it was Tom Pelissero was talking about just some of the, the details associated with this search, what some of the candidates had to do. The fact that it feel very, felt very corporate like in the way that they were going about this, like having to fill out a personality test and having to write an essay. And it was. The Browns kind of do operate this way sometimes where I think they want to fancy themselves as like a Fortune 500 company. And I think there are some benefits to that, but also some drawbacks because this is not a normal working environment. And so the idea that they were trying, that Shielhaus and Todd Monkin were kind of in at the end, I think speaks to how unattractive this job was to some other people. We had many people pull their names out of this job search, Grant Yudinsky being one of them. And so it did feel like there were some hesitations from some of these candidates about taking this job. And I think that may have extended to Nate Shieldhouse and I don't know what those were. At the end of the day, what is the reason somebody like Nate Shielhaus doesn't want a job like this? Is it the idea that you're going to get married to Jim Schwartz? Like that's what we want to do. Is it the state of the roster? Is it the fact that maybe there will be another job that comes available in the next couple years that's better than this one? I don't know. But I think justifiably there were a lot of concerns, Derek, with some of the candidates about what it would mean to take this job. And so that's why landing on somebody like Todd Monkin, who maybe didn't have like a voracious from a lot of other places makes sense at the end of all this.
- [09:23]
Derek
And if I'm Shieldhouse, that's what it is for me. Right? Like, you're incredibly young. You're already getting hype as, as far as, like, the head coaching stuff goes, why would you want to attach yourself to a Browns organization that when you're taking a head coaching job, most of these teams are going to have to go through, like, a couple of years of rebuild. But, like, the Browns have a very far way to go with this roster. You have zero answer at quarterback and probably don't have a good avenue there. Like, I understand why he would want to back off of that. To me, it's like it's the whole process of it all. Like you mentioned all the weird stuff that I think that they were asking a lot of their coaching interviews to do in terms of just all the stuff to potentially take the job. And so partly because of that, it seemed a lot of guys turn that down. Shieldhorse ends up turning it down. And then it also seemed like for a little bit, like maybe they were just going to internally promote Jim Schwartz, who I'm assuming wouldn't need to do all that stuff because he's already been in the building and they know what the deal is with him. And then it ends up being Todd Monkin, who I think was a little bit off the radar and also a weird one because he'd been their offensive coordinator like four or five years ago and then moves on from that job. Obviously goes. Goes to the college ranks a little bit. Now he's back as a head coach, which that one, I think is just like a weird kind of dynamic. There's so much about their process of it all. It's kind of been confusing to me. Even if I think Monkin is like, maybe not the sexiest hire, but probably fine. If you're trying to get a little bit of offensive juice going while you're trying to rebuild this roster a little bit.
- [10:41]
Robert Mays
My thought is, if you are compelling some of the candidates to keep Jim Schwartz as the defensive coordinator and that's limiting your pool of people, what is stopping you from just making Jim Schwartz the head coach?
- [10:56]
Dave
That that's what makes this strange is I, it seems, again, reading tea leaves, it seems like Jim Schwartz was a package deal that scared a lot of guys out of this. And then Todd Monken is the one where that's okay. Or maybe they thought Jim Schwartz would stay on to work with Todd Monkin.
- [11:14]
Robert Mays
And then he didn't.
- [11:15]
Dave
And then Jim Schwartz was like, no, screw you.
- [11:17]
Robert Mays
That's the fact that you're trying to pair him together with some of these coaches and then now he's potentially going to leave anyway. I understand that there's a lot of drama associated with this. My read on this, and I've said this before, this feels to me like a couple of the coaching hires that the Texans made at in the pre Demico Ryan's era of the Texans where and the through line there is that The Texans had DeSean Watson on the roster. This team is dealing with the downfall of having DeSean Watson on the roster. And the Texans hired, you know, they had the Levy Smith and David Coley years back to back. This feels like something like that where Todd Mockin is potentially going to be like your head coach for the next two years as you rebuild this thing. Todd Monkin turns 60 in like six days. He's going to get, I don't know, $25 million on this contract. He's going to get fired at the end of every end of two years. He's got a nice little retirement plan and then you go about hiring the coach you really want to take you into the next era. That may seem cynical and I do think that's probably a pessimistic outlook on what this is. But just from the outside looking in, that's what it feels like to me.
- [12:24]
Derek
Well, and again with where the Browns are in terms of how far the roster has to go, you're still dealing with some of the desean Watson stuff like and there were other attractive jobs on the market for other good coach to take like John Harbaugh and all that stuff. Like it just, it felt like they got into the game a little bit late in terms of trying to pick who their head coach was going to be. And given all the constraints with the roster and them trying to tie people to Jim Schwartz and then not doing it, which like that I think is also a weird dynamic because I think Jim Schwartz is a great coach. So I wonder like what the hang up was with some of the head coaching candidates. Like all, again, all of like the process to me was just kind of very bizarre here.
- [12:59]
Dave
I asked this earnestly and I guess if I was playing devil's advocate for the record, I felt that way about the Browns job before they ever made a hire. So it's nothing personal about Todd Monkin.
- [13:09]
Robert Mays
I actually. I like Todd Monkin, and I'm actually curious to see what Todd Monkin can do.
- [13:12]
Dave
So that's what I was about to say is it seems for all the world like whoever took this job was gonna be set up to fail or set up to be replaced by a coach entering into a more favorable position in a couple of years. It's strange to me that outside of the fact that the process was weird and the Browns have a long track record of dysfunction, I feel like more people would be interested in Todd Monkin for the simple virtue of the fact that he arrived in Baltimore and Lamar Jackson's best football coincided with the time that he was calling the plays for the Ravens. And the fact that that is not more interesting or more excited. Is it purely related to his age? Yeah.
- [13:53]
Robert Mays
And I think personality. I think age and personality. I think those are the two things that would not make Todd Monkin a more attractive head coaching candidate. The. To me, when we're thinking about what is the best path forward here, what is the best way this can work out for the Browns, it's easy. He's Bruce Arians.
- [14:10]
Derek
Oh, what a great comp. That's really good.
- [14:12]
Robert Mays
That. That's it. And Bruce was 60 when he got that job. Exciting comp, though, that's the best case scenario is that he's Bruce Arians. And so. And I, again, I like Todd Monk, and I do see a path like that forward, but I think Bruce was 60 when he got that job. And I know you've heard Bruce Arians talk. We talk about, like, guys that were assistance that maybe are a little rougher around the edges than the McVeigh clone factory that we've watched over the last five to 10 years. I think they fall into similar categories.
- [14:42]
Dave
That makes me so much more interested to watch this. I do. At the end of the day, I think the. The environment, the roster that the Browns have right now is going to make this tough. But outside of the strange process, I'm. I think I'm a little more interested in this than. Than the public opinion would. Would have you believe.
- [15:00]
Robert Mays
Two downstream effects of this. One, what happens with Jim Schwartz now? He is under contract. He clearly does not want to be there. I would doubt that the Browns would strong arm him into staying. I think that he could provide a compelling enough case where he's like, I don't want to be here. Please let me out of this deal. They did this with Kyle Shanahan 10 years ago, right? Like, this is the first time that organizations had to deal with something like this. I think he's going to be in demand as a defensive coordinator. I feel like the best spot for him as I look at the spots available still on the board. I would much rather have Jim Schwartz than Gus Bradley if I were the Niners. Like that. That's just the one that makes the most sense. You think about the shared DNA and.
- [15:36]
Derek
Like, how much shit has Jim Schwartz's defense given Kyle Shanahan over the years? Like, just get him on the. Get him on your team and get him out of the way.
- [15:42]
Robert Mays
I mean, Chris Urik is. They legitimately share like, shared DNA in terms of like how they want to play defense. I mean, if you want to trace the whole thing, which we don't have to get all the way into. Stefanski wanted that defensive system in part because of what Salah and the Niners did to him in the 2019 playoffs. And so. Or during the 2019 season, I think they played in the playoffs so that it was scary enough. It's like, I want that. And so they tried to seek that out. Eventually they had like a diet version of it with Joe woods and then they got like the real version of it with Jim Schwartz, even though it was a little bit more man heavy. And so there is like very a ton of shared DNA between what the Niners have been in the Salah era and what Jim Schwartz wants to be, especially up front. The coverages are a little bit different, but I think that is a pretty easy one, for one thing. And so if I'm a Niners fan, I think that that is the end result that I would be seeking out is he is the defensive coordinator of your team next year.
- [16:30]
Dave
It's just so strange to me that Schwartz was a big enough part of this that it seems like he scared off multiple candidates. He had some expectation that he had a shot to get this job if some other candidates didn't want it. He's been in the building for three years and the Browns or he seemed to be kind of surprised by this to the point where he's very upset and reportedly left the building. And I don't know, I would have just expected more synergy here than to. For him to thrown off by the decision to hire Monken and the Browns seemingly like, well, wait a second, you don't want to work here anymore? Like, why is this surprising to anybody? But yeah, if the Browns are willing to let him leave, damn near anyone With a DC Opening should want him. And the Niners make a ton of sense.
- [17:14]
Robert Mays
The other one, the other job. And now becomes intriguing, what happens with the Giants offensive coordinator? Because the thought would be that Monken would follow John Harbaugh to the Giants, which I think was part of the reason I was as bullish as I was on the John Harbaugh hire. Now we don't know who the offensive coordinator for the Giants is going to be. Davis Webb is somebody they've requested. Like, I feel like, you know, he's somebody that's still floating out there. It feels like with the Broncos firing Joe Lombardi, Davis Webb might just be the offensive coordinator for the Broncos. Is he. The rumor was that Joe Brady potentially was going to take that job and then take over play calling with Sean Payton. Is that something he would give Davis Webb? If that's the case, would he rather keep the Broncos job? And so now it just becomes a little bit messier for who the Giants offensive coordinator is. And we'll keep an eye on that. Derek, I don't know if we've talked about this at all, but the Giants defensive coordinator is your guy. Denard Wilson.
- [18:02]
Derek
I'm big time into that, man. Like, that. I think, going back and trying to, like, I think anytime there's like, a super successful head Coach Like Mike McDonald, people want to go and immediately pick from his, like, tree from, like, what might. Maybe the Seahawks staff, but, like, all the guys on that Raven staff, like, two, three years ago. Like, I think a lot of those guys have been. Have been great. Like, Weaver is a guy who's getting a lot of interviews as well. Like, I think Denard Wilson and what he was able to do with that defense in Tennessee, like, they played hard as hell, man. And they were kind of strapped with a lot of the talent that they had in the secondary. And funny enough, that's actually pretty true of the Giants as well. I think they probably need to retool that room as well. But he's used to have to making it work with, like, a really good front and a secondary that's a little bit up and down. So I'm excited about that one.
- [18:43]
Robert Mays
The Titans front was not really good. The Titans had no edge rushers during Denard Wilson's entire time with the team.
- [18:48]
Derek
Okay, okay.
- [18:49]
Dave
Jeffrey Simmons will do a lot for you.
- [18:51]
Derek
Their D line is. Yeah, their interior is awesome. And I thought their linebackers play pretty well this year, actually.
- [18:57]
Robert Mays
But in terms of just pure pass rush, you're going to no edge rushers to a team that has Abdul Carter and Brian Burns.
- [19:04]
Derek
That part is different. I just mean having like something in the cupboard up front.
- [19:08]
Robert Mays
Yes, I, I, I think this is a, a different collection of talent along the defensive front. When you can consider all four guys for Denard Wilson, I am excited to watch that.
- [19:17]
Dave
It's, that's a classic case of a higher where if you go look at the basic stats, the advanced stats, you're probably not going to get very excited. But if you watch some of the stuff the Titans have done over the last two years and then you say, all right, the front's awesome and Wilson's been making do with not a lot on the back seven across multiple years and the Titans are functional at least. I think there's, there's so much reason for optimism there. If you have a group that could rush the passer like that, plus an off season to you would think upgrade the secondary.
- [19:50]
Robert Mays
It also feels to me, and this is based on no knowledge of the situation or the dynamics, but they didn't promote Denard Wilson to be the head coach after Mike McDonald left and the fact that John Harbaugh sought him out here instead of somebody that was on that Raven staff almost feels like a, yeah, we might have screwed up and I'm trying to rectify that here. So speaking of the Ravens, you guys talked about Jesse Minter on Monday. We don't have to rehash a ton of that. Just my overall thoughts on it in favor. Right. I mean I this is as soon as they fired John Harbaugh, I was like, this is the one that to me makes the most sense. And I think it makes the most sense in part because if I'm trying to optimize my coaching staff and my identity as a franchise with a quarterback like Lamar Jackson, I think those are the moments where going with a defensive minded head coach makes sense because you already have an element on your offense that's going to probably put you in the top 10. Even with an average offensive coordinator making sure you're doing everything you can to get the most out of the defensive side of the ball. When you have an MVP caliber quarterback. I support that as an idea and obviously Jesse Minter has done a phenomenal job with the Chargers. Like a phenomenal job.
- [21:00]
Derek
It was so good. And because we talked about it again after his first year, I was like, I want to see a little bit of growth from him and I think he did that. Like, I think he developed a lot of some of what he was spinning behind a lot of his pressures and like how he was bringing some of his pressures. I think almost every player on that defense was the best versions of themselves consistently. And I think that's going to be an important thing because we talk so much about X's and O's, but it's also like, can you just get guys to play at their highest level? And I think that that's important. And then I know he's still got a lot to go in terms of like piecing his staff together, but to me, going out and getting Dwayne Ledford as your offensive line coach, who I think has done a kick ass job for the Falcons for the past four or five years. One, like he's been really, really good, but also two, I think it signals like, okay, maybe we're going to be more of a zone based offensive line team, which is what the Falcons had always been under his tutelage. And so I actually think that's perfect for trying to get the most out of whatever the last year or two of Derrick Henry are going to be like. I just, I think the way that this is coming together for the Ravens is like I'm extremely in favor of all this.
- [21:57]
Dave
The one that got me really excited is his DB's coach.
- [22:00]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I was going to ask you about that because you understand that world a lot more than we do.
- [22:03]
Dave
I mean, Mike Mickens, which I'm not going to lie and say I've been hip to his career entire time, but just look at.
- [22:09]
Robert Mays
Watch Notre Dame play.
- [22:10]
Dave
Yes, exactly. He's coming from a DB factory. Mike Mickens is the new DB coach in Baltimore. He overlapped with Kyle Hamilton. He coached Benjamin Morrison and Jacob Parrish this past year. He coached Xavier Watts. It goes back to Julian Love. And on top of that, he was at Cincinnati when Sauce Gardner was there. So a long track record of working and developing with not just, I mean, Sauce Gardner and Kyle Hamilton, unicorn type top 10 prospects, but even guys further down the line. I mean Xavier Watts and Jacob Parish have been two of the best rookie DBs in the league this year to so to add that guy and then obviously mentor was in the college game. So he's deeply familiar with guys that, that work at that level to identify him so quickly and bring him on. And again he's, he's, he's worked with Kyle Hamilton before. I saw that and was, was very intrigued and excited.
- [22:57]
Robert Mays
Yeah, the Ledford thing obviously jumped out to me. I think the only reason he doesn't stay in Atlanta is because Bill Callahan is coming with Stefanski in almost Any other scenario, he'd probably still be the Falcons offensive line coach. And so to get him at the end of this, I think is huge for the, for the Ravens. I'm with you on the zone running thing too, Derek. And I think that their personnel honestly fits that, especially if you bring Linderbaum back. Like they're not like, I mean, fall way lay. But other than that, like this isn't a group of like huge, massive, hulking offensive linemen. And so I think that they could easily kind of slot into that. The big question for me, as it would be with any defensive coach, defensive minded, head coach, hire, who's the offensive coordinator going to be? So far, a couple names that they've interviewed, they've looked at. Declan Doyle has been requested as Bears offense coordinator. Scotty Montgomery, who was on the lion staff. Cliff Kingsbury seems to be in the mix there. Derek, is there anybody you've seen, any names you've seen attached to this job that you would like to see work with Lamar Jackson? I know that you have like a deep emotional investment in whoever ends up getting this thing. And so I wanted to ask you first.
- [23:54]
Derek
I. Cliff seems like the easy, just like C plus, get a passing grade type of hire. I think I would be more interested in trying to pick somebody like a Scotty Montgomery, like trying to pick somebody from a line staff that I think has had a lot of success over the last handful of years. So I think given the pool of candidates that's left, there's nobody I'm like super excited about. But again, I actually when me and Dave were talking about this a little bit in terms of trying to parry an offensive coordinator together with Lamar Jackson, I was like, listen, the offensive coordinator, higher matters. But to me, just fix the offensive line. And I think a lot of whatever you want from Lamar Jackson is going to kind of fall in line. Them getting Ledford, maybe they make one upgrade that to me, I'll be happy, I think.
- [24:33]
Robert Mays
And then Davis Webb, according to reports, seems to be the other one that is in the mix there, which he feels like he's been tapped or you know, looked at for all of these jobs. And if you're Davis Webb and you want to be a head coach next year, I think that coaching Lamar Jackson is probably the best offensive coordinator job on the board, including the Giants one. Let's get to our next one here. You guys also hit this on Monday, but there's been some news about the staff. The Pittsburgh Steelers hire Mike McCarthy to be their head coach. His staff is getting fil out again. My just general thoughts on the McCarthy hire. I used a word immediately after it happened. I stand by it. I think it's just deeply underwhelming. I think it's. I think it's uninspired. And part of the reason that I still believe that a week later is that you look at the offensive staff that he's putting together, just getting the packers band back together. It seems like Scott Tolzine is potentially going to come in as his offensive coordinator. James Campen is going to be his offensive line coach, who was his offensive line coach in Green Bay for several years. I think that Mike McCarthy will potentially do a fine job as the Steelers head coach. But the idea that you're this franchise that had like a 10 and 7, very compressed distance between your ceiling and floor every single year, and you're getting bounced in the wild card round, hiring Mike McCarthy to get you out of that just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And I watch what happened to Mike McCarthy. The offenses have been pretty good, right? But I watch what happened between this last year in Dallas and then what the Dallas offense looked like this year. It was better this year. Like, the offense was better when they brought in Clayton Adams and Brian Schottenheimer to run the offense. And so this version of what you're getting with Mike McCarthy, I just find it deeply unexciting. And this was a franchise that had such an opportunity to not do the safe thing, to not retreat back into, like, the warm embrace of, let's just be a competent team with a coach that we kind of know what he is. And there's value in a coach that can win you nine or ten games a year. But I still think that this was a chance for them to seek out a different sort of ceiling. Is there a chance that Brian Flores would have been a worse head coach than Mike McCarthy? Yes. But I. I think I'd explore that uncertainty before I would go back to somebody like Mike McCarthy.
- [26:51]
Dave
You know what's funny? I. Derek and I talked about it at length. I still. I would have done something else. I would have opted for a younger coach with the chance to tap a higher ceiling. I like the moves that are happening with Pittsburgh so far.
- [27:06]
Robert Mays
Patrick Graham is exciting.
- [27:07]
Dave
Patrick Graham is exciting. But I actually, I. I feel differently about the Scott Tolzine higher than you do for a couple reasons, actually. One big reason, and his name is Kellen Moore. Scott Tolzine started in Dallas. When McCarthy got that job, he came over from Green Bay. He coached in Dallas for the entirety of the time that Mike was there. He lands in New Orleans this year as the quarterbacks coach. And you don't want to assign too much of the credit or too much of the blame, but coach Tyler Shuck on the way to a very promising, very encouraging season from him. And also the fact that Kellen Moore goes to Philly for a year, gets a New Orleans job, builds his own staff and identifies Tolzine as a guy like, I want to bring him here. And again, Kellen Moore won a Super bowl with the Eagles. It's had a top five offense. Most of the time he's been a coach for Kellen Moore to identify him and be part of fast tracking him the way that Kellen Moore was fast tracked. I look at that and I say, ooh, I trust if Kellen Moore thinks this guy's got some juice. And I also remember Mike McCarthy sent Kellen Moore away at the end of his Dallas tenure. And for him to be looking at Scott Tolzine as a potential guy to come in, maybe sort of again, like you mentioned, with John Harbaugh, like a, ooh, oh, let's get some of that back. I'm kind of intrigued by that. And again, what. Who's the quarterback? What does this look like in the big picture? Still not very exciting. But Patrick Graham and Scott told Zane I can get on board with as a Patrick Graham for sure a hire that can raise your floor because he would be working with an actually talented defense. And then if Scott told Zine is a future star in the way that Kellen Moore was, that could be very important for the long term outlook of the Steelers.
- [28:47]
Robert Mays
I guess I just for me it's going to be the Mike McCarthy offense. No matter who the offensive coordinator is.
- [28:52]
Dave
It just feels like it's more likely.
- [28:53]
Robert Mays
Than the Mike McCarthy offense. And the Mike McCarthy offense is just not exciting me in 2026, fair or.
- [28:58]
Derek
Not, yeah, that's exactly where I landed. Like the last two times that he's been replaced, the offense has immediately got better. And so that to me is a little bit of a concern. Again, we don't know who the quarterback is, so that would be an issue with I guess any head coach that you hire. But I kind of landed in the same spot as you, Robert. Like just kind of uninspiring. Like there's a chance that maybe he can be like a consistent nine win coach, but you just fired the guy, the last guy for doing exactly that. Like that just doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me. And so I doubt it's going to be like this thing just crashes and burns and they win like three games at some point like that. I don't think it's going to be that. I just this to me, if you were going to fire the a guy as steady as Tomlin, to me it's like, yeah, then go hire some like 37 year old. We're going to take a swing. We want a fresh set of eyes. Mike McCarthy, given how many times he's done this, just doesn't really feel like a refresher to me in that way.
- [29:48]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I think that there's a disconnect between some like with some of the discourse about Mike McCarthy in the aftermath of this. Like framing Mike McCarthy as some blank, bumbling buffoon is wrong. He's been an incredibly successful consistent he's won a ton of games. NFL head coach. He's won a lot of games. They were winning 10 games a year in Dallas. That's really hard to do consistently but I don't think it's some disaster. I don't think it's going to be embarrassing. I come back to the same word. It's uninspired. It's just having this your third go around retread as your answer and your next step after the Tomlin thing, it just, it's really hard to get excited about it.
- [30:29]
Dave
I'll say one more time I agree with that for the most part and I would have opted for a younger coach if I made this higher, but I and I don't think the Tolstein hire is official as we're recording this.
- [30:40]
Robert Mays
No, they just, I think they were just interviewing him. Scott Jeremy Fowler report that today I'm.
- [30:45]
Dave
I'm intrigued by the staff and yeah, I have a, I have a fairly high degree of confidence that this won't be a disaster. But I said it on the Hangover show that shouldn't be the bar that the Pittsburgh Steelers are trying to reach.
- [30:57]
Robert Mays
And I, I'm excited about Patrick Graham. Patrick Graham I think was should have been on more short lists for defensive coordinators for offensive coaches in this cycle. I know a couple offensive coaches that were interviewing for jobs where he was going to be their choice and then just before a couple things shifted and so I'm not surprised that Mike McCarthy want if you look at the numbers, they're not going to overwhelm you. Kind of similar to the Dinar Wilson conversation. The Raiders finished 16th in EPA per play on defense last year per true media who are the good players on the Raiders defense, other than Max crosby.
- [31:28]
Derek
That'S like 10 spots higher than they should have finished.
- [31:30]
Robert Mays
It's wild. And they were bumping up against the top 10. I think it was in 2022, 2023, they were bumping up against the top 10. I think they finished like 12th and even higher than that in DVOA. And so I think that Patrick Graham's had a couple really nice seasons as a defensive coordinator and with a little bit more talent, I' excited about what he could potentially do. All right, let's take our first quick break and then come back with some more assistance. Centric news from the past week or.
- [31:55]
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- [33:49]
Derek
Credit stop if you cancel any lines.
- [33:50]
Robert Mays
Qualifying credit required. We don't have to spend a ton of time on this, but because I feel like this is like a Titanic situation where like we're just moving around the deck chairs before this whole thing, whole thing sinks next year. This jets situation is a disaster. Like this idea that you're going to let a potential lame duck head coach just fire the whole staff and then bring in a whole new staff. And like what Give me one reason why I should have any faith that this New York jets season is going to be anything less than a framing than flaming record.
- [34:28]
Derek
Well, so because of how late it's happening and how many guys are being fired. Like, I legitimately wonder how much of this is Glenn and how much of this is like people above him. Like asking like you need to reshuffle the staff given how bad last year was. Like, I because this to me, like this is an ownership group in a front office that would do a little bit of that. Like the whole this being like if they had just done this like right after the season ended and wanted to clear house. That's one thing. The fact that it's like three, four weeks after the season has ended makes this incredibly bizarre.
- [34:55]
Robert Mays
Are just the whole thing. You fire eight assistants overall. You fire the offensive coordinator, because who is Tenor Angstrom, by the way? It seemed like they were trying to move him into a slightly different role and I assume he didn't take too kindly to that. And it was like, no, I don't want to do that. They were going to hire Wink Martindale seemingly to be their defensive coordinator, but then Aaron Glenn said that he wanted to call a defensive plays and so that rules Wink Martindale out as your defensive coordinator. So you hire Brian Duker, who was the past game coordinator for the Dolphins and happened to work for Aaron Glenn in Detroit. Every single bit of this and the idea SNY reported that they've reached out to Frank Reich potentially about being the offensive coordinator. Like there is no element of this inspires any sort of hope about what this jets season is going to look like. This has been bad from start to finish, like from the gun.
- [35:47]
Dave
It sucks too because people have been saying since before the season was over, this is the type of year that would justify making Aaron Glenn A1 and done. And maybe it's because I admired the work that he did with Detroit where I was like, ah, that that feels harsh. I don't, I don't think I'm willing to go that far. And then you see what has happened since the season ended and it does not inspire confidence. Robert, I don't know what else to say about it.
- [36:15]
Robert Mays
I mean it is rough. Like I, I can't even tell you how much I feel for jets fans, like to go into another season where you have a guy that was a sought after head coach candidate where there was a lot of justifiable excitement about what he was as a candidate, as a prospect, and then to have the season that you just had and then now having to endure this in the months since where there's just nothing but dysfunction radiating off this thing. My God.
- [36:41]
Derek
And not to drive it any, any further, but like the guy that you thought was going to come out of college to go be your quarterback goes back to school. Like everything about this off season has fallen in the worst way for, for the.
- [36:52]
Dave
If you're a Jets fan, I assume you're just finding copium in the number of draft picks that you have, because.
- [36:57]
Robert Mays
What else is it? That's truly the only thing that's worth.
- [36:59]
Dave
And I spent the disaster that is the coaching situation, hopefully, which you can't take that for granted with the jets, unfortunately, but hopefully it doesn't influence Darren Moogie's ability to find good players with those draft picks. And maybe that can still happen, but that's. That's about all I got.
- [37:16]
Robert Mays
Well, I mean, now you're in. You're creating disconnect between the personnel and the coaching side because you're going to have this coaching staff influence the players that you're drafting and then this coaching staff is immediately going to get fired.
- [37:27]
Dave
I know it's, it's bad.
- [37:31]
Robert Mays
It's the most cliche thing you can say in a situation like this. I'm going to say it anyway. This is why bad teams stay bad and the jets are very much on track to staying bad. Let's run through some of the coordinator hires that have happened in the last week or so. I cannot for the life of me remember which of these we've talked about and which we've haven't. Which we haven't. So we're just going to hit most of them. The Dallas Cowboys hired Christian Parker to be their defensive coordinator. My watch is over. This is. I've been trying to make this happen for like the last two years. I, I just felt like among all of the defensive assistants and position coaches around the league, he was the one that I felt like was arguably the most exciting defensive coordinator hire to be made. I was surprised it didn't happen in the last cycle. I think that was, was probably because the Eagles won the super bowl and you couldn't talk to him for a good chunk of the, of the hiring cycle. And just the timing of it was off he is somebody that, I mean, I'll just walk through, like, why I, why I feel this way. I, I, I first talked to him at training camp in 2022, and this was. It was kind of random. Like, he was. He had been on the staff with Fangio, and then they kept him for the Hackett staff, and he was a DBs coach with Fangio, and those guys had played well, and he was a young coach, and I was like, I'd just love to just meet this person. And he was just incredibly impressive even then. And at that point, he was, like, 31, and just, like, his ability to communicate ideas and just the clarity and just kind of the confidence and the presence was unbelievably impressive. And then he goes to Philly, and, you know, I remember talking to him before training camp last year, and we were just talking about what makes a great defensive coordinator, because I wanted to just pick his brain about what he might be like when he eventually got the job. And he was just talking about what made Vic Fangio so special and the elements of going beyond just, like, what's on the page and how you make sure that it's beyond just a scheme thing. And I just felt like he was ready for something like this. And so for the Cowboys, specifically, to not go with a name, to not go with somebody that had been a defensive coordinator, a head coach before, and in my opinion, pick among, like, this group of candidates, potentially the best new defensive coordinator. I'm impressed with the process, and I'm excited about the end result, if you.
- [39:44]
Dave
Can allow me to become a character caricature of myself for a minute. But I'm. The way the Cowboys have handled everything since their season ended is getting me cautiously optimistic.
- [39:57]
Robert Mays
I hate to agree with you.
- [39:58]
Dave
The word is cautiously, but I have it on good authority Brian Schottenheimer led this process, and we've talked about it, like, you can tell by the names that they've been talking to that there is a good bit more research, attention to detail and turning over stones to. To find the guys that they've talked to in this process. And to land on Christian Parker was very intentional. I think there was a desire to get something Fangio related in the building and sort of ride this wave of what's popular in the NFL right now. I don't think the Cowboys have always done that. You call it complacency, call it laziness. What, however mean you want to be about it. That hasn't always been the top priority with the Cowboys. And so you see the effect that Brian Schottenheimer is having and it goes down the line. By the way, Parker is in the building now and I think they're giving him some autonomy to call his own shots on his side of the ball. The Cowboys, it looks like they're hiring Ryan Smith as their cornerbacks coach who was in Arizona for a long time. He oversaw Garrett Williams and the young guys on the Cardinals roster. I gotta shout out my friend John, John owning for finding this. Ryan Smith coached and helped bring Mansoor Delane, who might be the top cornerback in this year's draft, to Virginia Tech. So a very nice track record on that side of the ball. The Cowboys are talking to Zach Orr about joining their staff. Schottenheimer spent time with him in Jacksonville. This is a very intriguing and we'll call it cutting edge crop of talent. And you don't associate the Cowboys with Cody cut with cutting edge, particularly when it comes to coaching. And so for them to be involved in this many intriguing names, it's, it's very interesting. And you think about the draft picks that they have after the Micah Parsons trade. They are, they are well positioned to have quite a makeover on the defensive side of the ball.
- [41:51]
Derek
I'm also into this move. You know, I. You guys have said most of it and why it's a good hire. Like obviously great track record with Fangio, all the DBs like, like the Eagles DBs are talented. Right. But it's a lot of young guys. And the fact that Quinon Mitchell and Cooper DeJean were immediately as good as they were, I think really says a lot. I mean, I still remember the first game that DeJean played against the Bengals last year and he was immediately ready to go. So like that to me speaks to a little bit of coaching. And then just I feel like over the last however many years, the ideas on the Cowboys defense have just been stale. Even when they were good with Dan Quinn, it was like it's a guy who like that style of defense had been around for a while and had been popular for a while. Obviously most recently like with Matt Eberfluss. I think that had been a little bit of a stale thing. And so for them to go so far in the other way, in terms of age, in terms of like where the defense is headed, where. Where the game is headed, I'm. I'm into it.
- [42:38]
Dave
I mean off the top of my head and again, this is a team I covered for a long time, so I can remember this stuff better. But defensive coordinators for the Dallas Cowboys off the top of my head, Matt Eberfluous. Most recently, Dan Quinn, which worked out but was still a guy that had had a long history and was a retread at that point in his career.
- [42:58]
Robert Mays
Mike no.
- [42:58]
Dave
1, Mike Nolan, Rod Marinelli, all former head coaches. This is, this is a very big departure from what they typically do.
- [43:06]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I, I, I'm very excited about it. And listen, you never know, you never know what it's gonna, what's gonna happen when a guy's in the chair doing it. This is about making bets, especially with guys who have never done the job before. This is the bet I would have made. And so I'm very excited that the Cowboys ultimately went this direction. Keep rolling here. Brian Dabel is the offensive coordinator for the Tennessee Titans. Derek, I'm going to you on this one. Again, as somebody who is deeply invested in the success of Cam Ward, how do you feel about Brian Dabel being the head coach or being the offensive coordinator of the Tennessee Titans?
- [43:39]
Derek
This feels like I'm fine saying they got on base. I would have wanted something that's a little bit more interesting to me. And I think with Brian D's offense, we've seen he's had good moments, right? Obviously the year with like the good year out of Daniel Jones, they like did well to orchestrate the offense to what he does well with all the boosts, all the RPOs, all the quick game and stuff like that. And I do think they will having a structure that is a little bit more gun oriented, a little bit more spread, like I think that actually does favor into what Cam Ward does as a passer where he is a guy who is just like three step, five step, I'm going to rip it. All this stuff like I think the passing game is orchestrated to the way that he wants to play quarterback. The complication to me is that Brian Dabel has only really ever had success when his quarterbacks are running like very good runners and running a lot. Cam Ward is not that kind of runner. Like he's a decent scrambler every now and then, but he's not a five, six times a game design type of runner. And so I do wonder how much of that like pinches what Brian Dable's play calling, you know, ability is going to look like.
- [44:40]
Dave
I don't disagree with your initial premise, but it makes me wonder the idea that comes up so often about offensive, the offensive coaching options being a little bit tapped out. And it's easy to say like, oh, we, we want something different. We want somebody younger and newer. Is it easier said than done to find those guys? And so if, if that's, if that's harder to do is Brian D. The best of I hate to say underwhelming but the best of the other options.
- [45:12]
Robert Mays
I'm I'm fine with this. Again, I think they're probably higher upside options, but I probably clears the bar for we're setting up Cam Ward to be successful. We're giving him enough when it comes to the ecosystem we're dropping him into in year two. I think that's this satisfies that. Keep it on to the offensive coordinator hires here. Zach Robinson going to the Bucks. I actually am excited about this. Like I understand that that off and I said this a lot when the Falcons were deciding to move on from that staff. I feel like this version of the Falcons offensive coaching staff went down a very specific road for what they wanted the offense to be in part because of what Michael Penix liked to do. Like I don't think that being like this pistol heavy non play action offense is central to Zach Robinson's identity as an offensive coordinator. I think they just kind of boxed themselves in to what this version of things looked like. It didn't work. They ran into a dead end and I would have been interested in seeing them take a step back from that, pour everything back out onto the table and retool what the offense should have been for next year. And so they didn't get a chance to do that obviously. But he will get a chance to do that in Tampa and there are already connections there that make things easy. Like Kevin Carberry is staying as the run game coordinator. Like there are so many elements of this where I do think that Zach Robinson trying to be a little bit less specific and a little bit less strange in some of the things they're doing and just being a little bit more traditional combined with the fun elements of the offense and what they were doing. I think that this absolutely can work out.
- [46:50]
Derek
I 100% agree. Like I maybe he's not one of those rising stars like Ben Johnson or whoever. Maybe he's not quite of that quality. But I think Zach Robinson did a good job in Atlanta given some of the constraints like the only like again some of the Pistols stuff them being like as outside of the numbers as much as they were like that to me is like a Michael Penix thing. Like that's just how he likes to operate. And then in terms of what about that offense to me like was the Zach Robinson thing. I think a Lot of like the way the, the run game operated, like being such a zone heavy approach. I think you could argue maybe that is core to what he wants to do.
- [47:22]
Dave
But they were.
- [47:23]
Robert Mays
I don't, I don't think that's true. I think that's the offensive, that's the offensive line coach.
- [47:29]
Derek
That's a effort, that's fair.
- [47:30]
Robert Mays
That's. If it were up to Zach Robinson, I think there'd be more gap scheme stuff associated with the offense. And that's why working with Carberry, who will do some of that, like I, I think my personal opinion is that the Bucks offense this year will look very different than what the Falcons offense looked like last year. And so if you're worried about what the structure of that thing was and what that means for next year's Bucs team, I'd be less worried about about that. Just as a Bucks fan, I mean.
- [47:58]
Dave
Doesn'T, am I oversimplifying this to think this is an attempt by Todd Bowles to get back to what worked with Liam Cohen? No, like that's exactly what it seems like what this is even to the point Zach Robinson. I know it was for a cup of coffee, but Zach Robinson was in LA when Baker landed there briefly too. So like there's a little bit of familiarity. He comes from the same thing as Cohen.
- [48:20]
Robert Mays
Like he talked about Liam Cohen at his opening press conference. He's like, I talked to Liam Cohen all the time. Like it's not even an imag and connection. It's very stated Cod Bulls is just.
- [48:29]
Dave
Like, I want to do what worked last time. Let's do that again. Who's available?
- [48:33]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I, I'm totally fine with this and I absolutely think this is where where there's where where this works out. Speaking of retreating into what's familiar, Eric B. Is the Chief's offensive coordinator. I've seen a couple different reads on this and I think that there is a pessimistic and an optimistic viewpoint on this. Our buddy Mitchell Schwartz said when this hire happened, I think this is the optimistic view and I, I, I get, I have a lot of respect for Mitch and I appreciate what how he's trying to see this with B Enemy. You have someone that has a proven track record with the franchise as the offensive coordinator and as an assistant. It seems like there are some behind the scenes personality elements that are good with how he affects the huddle and with that side of the ball. Just in terms of accountability and mindset and all of that. That's great. So there's the ability to kind of connect with Andy Reid and that staff is proof you spent a year with Ben Johnson. And so are there some ideas from that version of NFL offense which is extremely different than what you run that you can potentially bring back into a familiar scenario? And so you get the best of both worlds. You get somebody that you know can do the job but is also helping populate the offense with new ideas. That's the optimistic view. The pessimistic view is that we're, we're pulling from the exact same pool. This is no different. And this chief's offense is not going to be able to break out of the, of the creative and intellectual slump that it has found itself in.
- [49:58]
Dave
Where do you think you land?
- [50:01]
Robert Mays
Probably more with option B. I think I do too.
- [50:04]
Dave
But I also just wonder if the chief's issues are things that can be solved by personnel.
- [50:12]
Derek
That's where I land. I think this is more.
- [50:14]
Dave
Do we need to reinvent the wheel.
- [50:16]
Robert Mays
Or do the Chiefs we need to reinvent better players. I'm in this place and this is the place I consistently am in. I go back to the, the Dak Prescott Cowboys from this year. Just because your quarterback can do all the hard things doesn't mean you can't give him more easy things to do.
- [50:35]
Dave
Okay, I hear you but. And, and the Cowboys offense did do that and it was very refreshing. They also added an all pro receiver.
- [50:43]
Robert Mays
That's fair.
- [50:44]
Dave
But they had two of them. It's really nice to have two all pro receivers.
- [50:47]
Robert Mays
I think you can do both of those things.
- [50:49]
Dave
You can.
- [50:49]
Robert Mays
I. I think you can do both of those things at the same time. And so there is absolute world where the personnel improves and a lot of the issues that we saw with the Chiefs offense disappear or become marginalized at the same time. I don't think you only have to solve it by getting different players. I think there are structural things you can do to make this easier.
- [51:08]
Derek
I agree with that. Like if I was doing the hiring I would have wanted someone that is going to bring in more new ideas for Andy Reid and for the staff. Not somebody who has been there before. Even if some of the behind the scenes stuff and really pushing guys like is going to be valuable for them. And so I think where I land with it is I would have in the perfect world wanted to have hired something a little bit different and kind of inject this thing with a little bit of something else. At the same time, I do think this will be better than what the offense was with Matt Nagy and You do that and add one or two different personnel things at the pass catchers and like, they're probably the sixth best offense in the league. Again, like, I just, I don't think it's as good as it could be and like as perfect as we want with Mahomes at quarterback, but I think it will be better and they will fix it. Some things.
- [51:50]
Robert Mays
That's probably where I land too. Again, I, I'm not, I'm not going to lose sleep over them hiring Eric B. Enemy to be the offensive coordinator. I just would have been curious how it would have looked if they had brought in somebody who does come from a different place.
- [52:04]
Dave
I'm mainly just happy I wasn't gaslit by the whole Matt Nagy thing in general. Like the way, the way that, that whole thing was framed as it. Like the Chiefs were like, well, we're just getting out in front of his eventual head coaching job. No, no, that was never a thing.
- [52:19]
Robert Mays
I just can't believe they tried to do that.
- [52:23]
Dave
I felt like a crazy person for like three weeks and everybody was like, well, yeah, like the Chiefs need to do this. And I was like, it's fine if they want to change their OC because they should, but not, not for this. It feels like as Matt Nagy is at the top of anybody's list to get a head coaching job, I think.
- [52:40]
Robert Mays
He might have been at the top of the Titans list and that. And I think that's for a very obvious reason and I think that may be one of the reasons they framed it the way that they did. But it as some just inevitability that Matt Nagy was going to be a head coach. I just don't understand why that would be the case.
- [52:57]
Dave
It felt like. It felt very much like what we're hearing about Clint Kubiak. Right. Which makes a lot more sense considering what the Seahawks have done this year and the fact that they're about to play in the Super Bowl. None of it made sense other than that the Chiefs were ready to make a change. And it's not the most inspiring or different change, but. But yeah, just a strange news cycle there in Kansas City for a few weeks.
- [53:20]
Robert Mays
Few more coordinator things to hit here. Jonathan Gannon is the Packers a new defensive coordinator. Why? So in the first. My first response to this is kind of like, okay, like if you look at what the Eagles defense was under Jonathan Gannon, it was a very specific kind of simple defense. They rushed five a lot. They played a lot of quarters. They had a lot of really good players. And I don't even mean that in a derogatory way. I think that Jonathan Gannon, to me is a very interesting coach in a bunch of different facets. I think some people, if you're a Packers fan looking at what the Cardinals were over the last two seasons and trying to project that onto the Packers, I think that's incorrect. I don't think that is what this is going to look like. I think it's going to look like something closer to what the Eagles were. If Jonathan Gannon has his druthers, but he hires Bobby Babich to be his pass game coordinator immediately, and Bobby Babich, look at what he did with the Bills. They're doing the craziest disguise and coverage rotation shit all the time. And so Jonathan Gannon, I think when he went to Arizona, the fact that he just kind of ceded the defense to Nick Rowes and the idea that he's going to bring in somebody like Babich who's very different than him in terms of ideology, he doesn't have like a ton of ego when it comes to, like, this is the best way to do it, even if he has things he believes. And so I don't know what this is going to look like. But the idea of pairing again with somebody like Babich and trying to figure out what the middle ground with that is, I think it's at least intriguing.
- [54:48]
Derek
I think it's intriguing to me too. Like I to me bringing in Babich and like getting some of that bill's DNA. Like when that Bill's defense was at its best at any point under Sean McDermott, it was when the safeties could really communicate and spin and do all this crazy stuff. The safeties or the packers have one of the best safety rooms in the league with Xavier McKinney and Evan Williamson. Both of them are fantastic at playing high, playing in the box, playing where forever they can play a little bit of man to man. Like the idea that those two guys are going to potentially be like the fulcrum for this defense, I'm pretty into that.
- [55:18]
Dave
I'm oversimplifying it, but you just tell me, and I think that's a good point by you, that look at what Jonathan Gannon. Gannon did in Philly. Well, in Philly, Hassan Redick had far and away the best year of his career. For Jonathan Gannon, who do the packers have? Micah Parsons. That whole front was also amazing. And so if Jonathan Gannon can do some cool shit with Micah Parsons and get more out of the other guys there. I mean, you know. Well, I guess we'll see what the future holds for Rashawn Gary, but if he's still with the packers, if you can maximize him to a better degree and then you've got Babich working on the back end. Simplified, but I think very intriguing.
- [55:56]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I meant it as like just a place to land if you're the packers at the end of this process. The Miami Dolphins have hired Bobby Slowik to be their offensive coordinator to pair with Jeff Hafley. Those guys obviously work together in San Francisco. There's familiarity there. Derek, I'm going to give this one to you. How do you feel about round two of Bobby Slowik as an offensive coordinator?
- [56:16]
Derek
I'm at least intrigued because I don't think Bobby Slowik was like war criminal level bad offensive coordinator. I think he showed some decent stuff and just ultimately in his second year at the job, offensive line was bad and he just didn't fully develop. But now he's taken a little bit of time, he's taken a different job, able to maybe step back and breathe and reassess what he wants to be. And so, so now that he's getting a fresh slate with a place that I assume that he'll get a little bit more of a Runway. Like, I'm. I don't know how good it's going to be. I don't know what the ceiling is going to be. Obviously there's a lot of moving pieces with that offense, but I don't know. I'm. I'm intrigued to see him get another shot at it. I really am.
- [56:53]
Robert Mays
Where I sit with this is when they fire Bobby Slowik at the end of the 2024 season. I think it kind of had to happen based on what happened to the offense. Like the offense just completely imploded. But I think Bobby Sloick could do a fine job in a second stint as an offensive coordinator. I think both of those things can be true at the same time. Like the offense completely imploded by the end in Houston, but I think that's for reasons that go beyond Bobby Slowik's capability as a play caller.
- [57:20]
Dave
Coaching is such a wild zero sum game because think about 2023. Bobby Slowik got head coaching looks off of one year where C.J. stroud was the man and it was so bad in Houston. A, he gets fired and B, I think the, the. Just the general tone, like if you were to bring up Bobby Slowik now, people would be like, Bobby Slowik, ew. It's like, what, two years ago, we wanted to make this guy a head coach. And we all know, like, the ecosystem in Houston sucks. I don't. I'm not trying to let CJ Stroud off the hook. The whole thing's bad. It was bad two years ago, it was bad this year. And if you look at Bobby Slowik's resume without knowing his name, you're just like, oh, this guy's been in the league for a decade plus. And he's followed Shanahan around, and he's deeply intimate with the Shanahan coaching system. And he was so good that somebody hired out of San Francisco took him with him to his next job. He's called plays before and helped somebody win Rookie of the year. That sounds pretty good to me. Good enough to the point where I'd be willing to give him another shot and not think it's a terrible idea.
- [58:23]
Robert Mays
I wonder what the run game looks like.
- [58:25]
Zach Berman
That.
- [58:25]
Robert Mays
That. That's my con. That's my question. You're not even a concern. But. So they're bringing over the assistant offensive line coach from the Texans, Zach Yenzer, who was there under Slowik. He was the assistant line coach for the last two years. And so I'm just curious, like, pass protection, run game, like those. Those are the first two things I would go to. Overall, I think that there's a level of quality and competency with him as an offensive coordinator. I think there are just some things lingering from the Houston days that I'll be curious why and how they will be different this time around.
- [58:55]
Derek
And I think the last thing, too, like, obviously so much of why the Houston thing fell apart in 2023, they kind of got away with the offensive line being what it was 2024. Volatile part. The Miami Dolphins offensive line is not great, but it's kind of nice. Like, their center played some of the best football of anybody in the sport this year. I think they have a nice young left tackle. Like the guards, I think are better than they were previously like this. I don't know if it's going to be special right away, but I do think some of the pass protection stuff, some of the run game stuff, I think they're going to have more options than I think he probably ever had in Houston.
- [59:24]
Robert Mays
Last one here. The Washington commanders have hired two coordinators. I don't think we've talked about David Blau, even though he got hired like three weeks ago. Because of how much shit has happened since between now and then. I can understand this. I mean, the sense that like, Blau was a very highly thought of assistant even before, like when he was a lower level assistant. I think he was always somebody that was going to be in the mix for offensive coordinator jobs. My main question about this is not whether he's an exciting hire, because I do think he is based on the reputation. I'm just curious what this looks like. Like, how similar is this to the offense they were running when he was on the staff with Cliff Gingsbury? He comes. He was on the Lions. He was on the practice squad in 2023 when Ben Johnson was there. How much of that stuff do they carry over, like, structurally? I just don't know what a David Blau offense looks like.
- [60:13]
Dave
I've already brought him up once on this show, but it reminds me a lot of Kellen Moore. I think the similarities are there. Like what? Like very successful college quarterback. I mean, Kellen was like one of the most successful college quarterbacks ever, but David Blau, good college quarterback, kicked around the league as a player for a little bit and just got identified by the coaches he was with as guy worth fast tracking. And again you get moved from assistant quarterbacks coach to OC when Tavita Pritchard leaves in the middle of the season. And then it's just like, okay, well you're the OC now, you're 30 years old. And Kellen, when he started out, Scott Linehan was his big influence. And I don't know the answer to that. For David Blau, like, is it Cliff Kingsbury because they were together in Arizona and he followed him to Washington. Is it Ben Johnson? Ideally, maybe you're blending those things. I don't know. But I, I'm always interested in a coach that gets fast tracked like this by, by veteran head coaches who have been around the game. So I don't know what it'll look like, but I think it's a very interesting hire.
- [61:11]
Robert Mays
He's 30.
- [61:12]
Dave
30 years old.
- [61:13]
Derek
Yeah, this. That's the part of it to me that is crazy. Like he's. And he's only been coaching for, for two years and it was all on this staff, obviously. And so I, I'm really interested to see what it looks like. My assumption, obviously this is not based on like talking to anybody or anything, but I'm assuming if you're wanting to move on from Cliff, you're wanting something that is a little bit more pro style, a little bit more the Ben Johnson era. But like, like how far on the spectrum do they go? Like, does it go 100% over to the Ben Johnson side or is it more like 75% and you still try to do some of the stuff that like Jaden Daniels is really comfortable with from the gun. I don't know.
- [61:45]
Robert Mays
I do a lot of during training camp. A lot of the I do. I spend a lot of my time during training camp, like trying to talk to young assistants, just guys that are a couple of rungs down the staff for this exact reason. And one of the things I always ask them is essentially like what is your football value system? Like if you were kind of where do you come from? What do you believe in? Just trying to get a beat on like what they would potentially do if they were ever elevated to one of these roles. I wish I had been able to ask David Blatt that question at any point because I have absolutely no idea as we sit here and talk about it.
- [62:13]
Dave
Well, you didn't know he'd get promoted twice in a one month period.
- [62:16]
Robert Mays
I figured he might. I just, there was a lot I was talking to the coordinators for the most part when I was in Washington last, last year. Speaking of Durante, Jones is the new defensive coordinator for the Washington Commanders. He's somebody that also was on the Cowboys radar when he was a somebody that they interviewed. And I, who knows, like there's sometimes you try to get the secret sauce from like a very specific sort of defense and a very specific sort of system and it doesn't always translate. But Derek, in my mind it's worth trying like seeing if you can get sauce facsimile even of the Minnesota Vikings defense for facsimile. Okay.
- [62:53]
Dave
Mizzou.
- [62:54]
Joe Biscalia
What a, what a word.
- [62:57]
Derek
And I actually do think, do I think maybe my favorite part of the hiring here, or at least the thought process is Jones was on the Viking staff a year before Brian Flores took the job and he actually kept him around and he's obviously kept in this entire time that Flores has been there. And so I actually think that should be shows one a little bit of adaptability on Jones's part because obviously the defense prior to Brian Flores was very, very different. But also the fact that a new guy comes in, kind of evaluates the staff and goes all right, we'll keep you on. And they've done a really, really good job consistently like that. That speaks volumes to me. And so again, if you're not going to go from the McDonald Fangio tree or whatever, this is probably the next best style of defense I would try to be picking from. So I'm interested To see what this.
- [63:42]
Robert Mays
Looks in that same vein, the guy that I think will be on that radar next year for not the exact same reason, but has a similar background. Carl Scott will be a defensive coordinator next year. Carl Scott is the defense. He's the passing game coordinator for Seattle. Mike McDonald kept him on from the Pete Carroll staff to his staff. And so similar where you have like a very good defensive coach who's like, yeah, I want that guy. I. That's a guy I think I'm willing to bet on.
- [64:06]
Dave
I don't mean this in a glib way, but my, my. The thing I'm most interested in with the commanders is just your. My eyebrows go up when Dan Quinn took play calling from Joe Witt in the middle of the year and then fired him. And then Cliff Kingsbury gets ousted after the year. And so that's just a situation where I'm like, all right, are we talking about you making all the right decisions at the end of the 2026 season and being in contender for coach of the year because the way you revamped everything or is the commander's job open like that doesn't feel like there's a lot of room for in between? There isn't.
- [64:40]
Robert Mays
I mean, as soon as you move on from two coordinators, the way avoid any sort of hot seat conversation is to win the Super Bowl. Yeah. Like Nick Sirianni did. Like that's what we're talking about some.
- [64:51]
Dave
Time we're sitting here saying, man, Dan Quinn just every decision he made was the right one. Or we're saying Jaden Daniels is still only 26. Of course you want this job. Like those are. Those are the options.
- [65:03]
Robert Mays
All right. That is all we've got for this end of the conversation. Like I said at the top of the show, we have got discussions with both Joe Biscow and Zach Berman about the Bills hiring Joe Brady and the interminable offensive coordinator search for the Philadelphia Eagles. Before we get to Joe and Zach, let's take one more quick break. Thy ticket lady Jennifer of Coolidge. Well, many thanks, good sir. Here is my Discover card.
- [65:33]
Dave
They accept Discover at Renaissance Fair?
- [65:36]
Robert Mays
Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Get it with the Times. With the Times.
- [65:43]
Zach Berman
You're playing the loot.
- [65:46]
Robert Mays
Yeah. And it sounds pretty good, right?
- [65:48]
Zach Berman
Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [65:55]
Robert Mays
When your home feels overstimulating, scent helps bring you back to center. Explore Pura's well being collection and choose by mood.
- [66:02]
Zach Berman
Get energized.
- [66:03]
Robert Mays
Find your focus. Relax, calm, or drift to sleep. Start now@pura.com moods hey, it's Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad, and we're partnering with Abercrombie for the launch of their new spring denim collection. This episode is sponsored by Abercrombie. Make Abercrombie denim the core of your capsule wardrobe because denim should feel like this. Abercrombie's 90s inspired fits are better than vintage, and the pair you need right now is the wide leg jean. It's lightweight, it's effortless, and elevates any outfit. Every pair available in both classic and curve. Love the viral fit that eliminates waist gap. It's easy to find your perfect pair, so shop Abercrombie denim in the app, online and in stores. Joining us now, it is our esteemed Buffalo Bills writer here at the Athletic, Joe Biscaya. Joe, how you doing, man?
- [66:59]
Joe Biscalia
Heck of a week, a week and a half. I was just joking with Michael before we started recording. It's felt like 10 years have passed since I left Denver for the divisional round, and I don't really know what day it is. So here we go.
- [67:17]
Robert Mays
Let's set the scene a little bit. I was flying home on Monday. I took my brother to see Duke play for Christmas. He's been a huge Duke fan for his entire life. And so we went to camera and it was awesome. It was a great experience. And so I'm flying back Tuesday morning, and I think as the plane has taken off, I get an ESPN alert and Joe Brady has been hired as the head coach of the Buffalo Bills. And I was kind of like, all right, so. So at the end of all of this, that's where we land. We land with the offensive coordinator that was already on the staff getting the head job after comments about hitting the playoff wall and just feeling like there needed to be a change. And how much change is this, really? And so I wanted to dig into this with you because. Because I think with a lot of the other moves that we've talked about on this show already, there's a level of, like, transparency and understanding where I can get my arms around them. I understand why they happened. Why Joe Brady is the head coach of the Buffalo Bills at this point in the franchise is a little bit harder for me to understand. And so I'm going to pose that seemingly simple but obviously not question to you. Why was Joe Brady the choice at the end of this process for the the Bills?
- [68:28]
Joe Biscalia
Well, I think there's an extremely convoluted answer there, I think. I think it all begins because where they are in their build and where Josh Allen is in his career, I think is the strongest indicator of anything that they didn't want to invite. The variable that of bringing a new head coach, a new offensive philosophy, a new everything. Because what they have seen since Joe Brady has taken over as the offensive coordinator for Ken Dorsey during the 2023 season is the offense starting to uptick in a way. And really speaking to Josh Allen the way that it didn't, you know, up until Dorsey was removed, you know, he. He was a good quarterback when. A really good quarterback, when Brian Dabel was here, then kind of had some lulls with Dorsey and then Brady arrived. And the collaborative nature behind Brady is the reason why so many players in the building are really a fan. So because they didn't want to bring in that variable of a new person having to acclimate themselves with Josh Allen. I think that is reason number one for me as to why they went for Joe Brady. And we've also seen throughout the test of time here in Buffalo, they have done so many things to keep Josh Allen happy. Like this is. This is the whole, like every single quarterback room they have ever had has been basically Josh Allen's buddies. And that's not necessarily a bad thing because Josh Allen hasn't missed a start the entire time since his rookie season. But that said, you know, it all has been with one intent in mind. So that's the big reason. But then it gets a little bit more convoluted because it's like, okay, you wanted a change, like you alluded to, you hit this proverbial playoff wall. And rather than bringing in a fresh new start, which is what I think a lot of people outside of the building would have expected, you just roll back basically the same thing that you just had on offense. And even to the point of Joe Brady continuing to be the offensive play caller, which. Which I confirmed with a team source yesterday. So there's all of these different elements to it, like, okay, how much difference is there going to be in Joe Brady being the CEO, the head man, while still assuming that play caller responsibilities and his him potentially spreading himself too thin because we've seen that happen before. And how much different is it going to be with a new defensive coordinator? Which I think is really going to be the biggest difference in all of this. And it just makes you go, okay, well, what really is the vision here? Do they really think that Joe Brady gives them Such a higher ceiling, or was this really just about changing the voice at the. At the top of the entire operation?
- [71:26]
Robert Mays
There's a lot to dig into there. And I understand if you're trying to kind of fulfill the two objectives on the offensive side of the ball, where you want some cotton continuity with somebody that has done this before, but you also want someone he likes. Right. And so I think the having someone he likes part of it, that's where Davis Webb might have been a potential option, but again, you're not carrying over what you've done successfully, so maybe that's out. So the two guys, in my opinion, that check the boxes of what you're saying, where there's a previous relationship with Josh Allen and there are guys that have done this before to a degree, are Brian D. And Joe Biden Brady. Why ultimately do you think that in their minds, Joe Brady was the better option than Brian D. Because in. If I'm trying to win the optics battle here, if I'm Buffalo, Brian Dable is an easier way to do that because you can sell everything that you just said while also selling that this is a new start and this is a new set of voices with Brady. There's part of me that you see that, that being the end result. And my first thought is kind of like, well, then why fire McDermott? Like, why? Why do this for that to be the final result? And with Dable, I think he's can at least sell that you're turning a page while giving consideration to everything else that you just said. So between those two guys, specifically, because in my mind, that's what I thought was going to happen. I thought Brian Dabel was going to be the head coach and they were going to sell it in all of those ways, and that didn't happen. So ultimately, when it came down to it, why do you think Brady was the choice over somebody like Dable?
- [72:50]
Joe Biscalia
Yeah, and. And to your point, Brian D. Would have been an easy sell to the community because he's from here and. And any fences they would have had to mend with. With how the whole Sean McD McDermott firing went down thing here when it initially happened, he could have easily been able to do that because he's, you know, he's a personality. He's a Buffalo guy. You know, he comes back to his grammar school's beer tent every single summer. Like that's just who he is. But this is. But why they inevitably went with Joe Brady over a Brian Dable situation, I think, is just to try and continue what They've built on offense because Brandon Bean has kind of alluded to them having a great offense a couple years ago and then, you know, last year, even though they went through their offensive struggles, I think the one thing they'll probably put their hat on here is the fact that they still averaged over 28 points a game. But it was, if you dig into the games themselves, it wasn't exactly like a fluid operation. Like there were so many inconsistent times and especially down the stretch of the season, I felt the defense more than anybody was keeping them in games. It almost the national perspective on them was kind of weird in that sense because, you know, McDermott was piecing that thing together pretty well over the last couple of months of the season once they started to get Cole Bishop up and, you know, him becoming a real, real impact player for them. So the fact that they decided to stay in house, it's a little confusing and this is the exact reason why I'm on the show today, and I know that. But it's almost as though they just felt like with McDermott, it just wasn't going to go further than it did. Or maybe it was a matter of his defense maybe not fitting the modern day NFL anymore. And that is a potential piece of the situation too, because as long as McDermott was there, then the defense and the scheme and the players that they choose to be on the team weren't really going to change the archetypes that they were looking for potential scenario in this. And then the other thing I think that has always been the kind of the what if situation here in Buffalo is when McDermott was the head coach, being the defensive minded guy that he is. We saw it play out with Brian Dable in 2022, where he left after some really great success and all of a sudden Josh Allen's play collar was gone. And I don't think the Bills wanted to go through that situation again. So rather than doing that exact operation, they just went ahead and named his play caller the new head coach. And they're going to try and figure.
- [75:41]
Robert Mays
It out from there, the McDermott role and how the defensive players were chosen. If you're trying to like have some cope about the role Brandon Bean has played in all of this and the way their front office and team construction has played into all of this, that would be a way to do it where you could say, well, you know, McDermott seeking out certain certain body types on defense and that's why they've been left wanting. I think that you're probably telling yourself A story a little bit with that, but I can understand the argument. So I get that part of it. I also get the idea that even if Joe Brady was there, having a different head coach at the front of the room and having a different feeling across the building, that can be a good thing. Like there can be substantial change. I mean, you're talking about him now being the head coach at, again, every team meeting, he's the one setting the tone, the culture, everything. And then a defensive coordinator comes in, and now an entire half of the ball is different. And so I do think that things can feel different even if you promote someone that was already on the staff. So I'm being a little bit flippant about that, but I do think that's a possibility. I'm curious now about why some of the limitations with the offense existed and whether those limitations will continue with Joe Brady as the head coach. And there's a couple different things that come to mind. This idea that, well, Joe Brady was too run heavy for an offense that has Josh Allen that I'm not really on board with, because I look at what they built over the last couple years, and we talked about this all the time in, like, the 2022 into 2023 season, where I felt like having a consistent part of the offense where you could rely on the run, you could kind of do a little bit of everything. What did they say? Like a dual pronged offense, like an offense that can. You're. You can attack on two fronts, like, McDermott said that all the time. And I think that version of the offense gave you the best version of Josh Allen because it kind of robbed him of his worst instincts. It allowed him to play within himself and kind of slow his heartbeat a little bit. That gave you the best version of him. Did we overcompensate for that a little bit at some points this year where you're running the ball too much, maybe. But I think overall the idea is fine. The question then becomes this version of the offense, is that solely a distillation of Joe Brady's vision for what the offense should be be, or is there a decent chunk of McDermott's input in that? And the other part of it is, if you get some better pass catchers, do we see a different version of the offense? And so this idea that they wanted to carry this vision over, I'm curious how much of the vision actually carries over when you have different personnel and when you have Brady able to run this thing without any sort of limitations or input from a defensive Minded head coach.
- [78:18]
Joe Biscalia
Yeah, that's, that's a super smart setup for that entire thing and there's a lot to unpack there. Where I'll start is with McDermott's vision. Because I talked to Sean a lot over the years about, you know, offensively, what he's looking for, and the one thing he has always pointed to in those situations is he's an Andy Reid guy. Like, he wants to throw the ball, but he also wants to maintain the threat to run, which is something that they really struggled with early on in their, in their build leading up to what they've been the last couple of years. And it went almost too much the other way that they went into the everybody eats era of Buffalo Bills wide receiver football. And it really wound up being that no one could get down the field anymore and uncover past like 7, 8, 9, 10 yards. So. Because I think there was some major roster limitations to allow them to be this two dimensional team that McDermott craved for them to be. And along those lines, Brady kind of constructed his offense and the way that they, they chose to call the plays in the vision of what they were best at. And there's no argument here with what they were best at. They had one of the best offensive lines in the league and they had one of the best running backs in the league this year. And even though they had Josh Allen, you can't ignore the fact that their pass catchers were terrible this season. If we're being perfectly blunt. Like their top boundary receiver in the Denver game was a guy they picked up on week 13. Like, what are we talking about here? And he's 31 years old. No disrespect to Brandon Cooks, but like, that's how bad the situation was. Like Keon Coleman, if there weren't two guys who tore their ACLs in Jacksonville, he would have been a healthy scratch the entire postseason. So this is more convoluted than just Sean McDermott's vision of the offense. Like, I, I get, like, everyone thinks, oh, Sean wants to run the ball more in theory, kind of, yes. But he just wants to do it a little bit more effectively. But there's also culpability here for Brandon Bean because the wide receiver position has not gone well for him. And the comments that he made to a local radio station right after the draft have kind of haunted him a bit about the wide receivers wide receiver position. And that is something that I think they're going to take a major look at and potentially open overhaul the entire situation because they know it needs to be better. And they also kind of have to shift a little bit here too, because they have two of their offensive linemen that are going to be free agents and Connor McGovern and David Edwards. And they're not household names, but David Edwards is a damn good guard and.
- [81:07]
Robert Mays
Connor McGovern hugely important pieces of what this Bills team is. It's massively, it's crucial and I would try to keep one of them if I could. And you and I will have this conversation hopefully at the combine about the off season outlook for the Bills and where the money needs to be move around. But I think that they need to do their best to try to keep one of those guys if they can. The comments to the radio station is a great thing to bring up and obviously they've been repeated over and over and over again because my sense of this, and I'm not trying to defend Brandon Bean in all of this, I just think when you look at the moves they made last spring, they made sense in the moment for how they wanted to build the room. You hope that Keon Coleman is going to take a step. You drafted him in the top 35. You can't pretend that he's you. If you go into this season thinking he's going to be a zero, you've already lost like you've already. There's no way to optimize your team building process by going into the season thinking he's going to be a zero. You have to hope that he's going to be something for you. You go sign Josh Palmer in free agency and that you hope Dalton Kincaid in a lot of ways can be your most explosive pass catcher. That combination with the other two tight ends and with Shakir and James Cook as a, as an idea, I understand it that I idea went as poorly as it possibly could have gone. On every single front, Coleman did nothing. He was a healthy scratch. Palmer gets hurt and now you have no outside receivers. Kincaid misses half the season and you're left with this absolute disaster. That happens sometimes from a team building perspective where you have these general managers try to make these incremental changes to these position groups. The bottom falls out and then they come into the next offseason and they're like, well, the half measure didn't work. We got to do something serious now. And I think that's exactly where the Bill's wide receiver process is probably going to be. You're going to see them do something ambitious and aggressive this spring because of how last year went. And I think overall as A process that's okay. It would have been okay if it hadn't happened with the radio station. If that doesn't happen, it would be so easy to look at it through the lens of everything that I just laid out. But because that happened, it's totally spun.
- [83:11]
Joe Biscalia
Yep. And I, I think if there's one critique of the way that they, that they went about it in 2025, it was almost too much of an over reliance on Keon's development where they didn't give themselves enough of a wiggle room, enough of a path to, to navigate if that didn't go well. Like they, and to their credit, Keon did show some flashes over a two game stretch in his rookie season. Then he hurt his wrist. Actually Jordan Poyer for the Dolphins is the one that popped him. And, and he was games, I think it was. And he wasn't really the same when he came back. And to their credit, in training camp, not in the early stages but like the middle to end stages, Keon looked like he was really coming on a bit to where they're like, okay, we've got this. Then he has the Ravens game, which also needs context because heading into the fourth quarter he had only one catch for 17 yards. Then they throw the ball basically 100% of the time and he dominates the fourth quarter against Jair Alexander, who retired two months later. So that is also context that is needed here. But that's. That said, they should have given themselves a little bit more of a chance. And the one way that I can point to with this is they completely ignored the receiver position in last year's draft. The only guy that they drafted was Caden prather in the seventh round. They had like 10 picks in this draft and they went defense for most of them, especially in the first four rounds. Like if you replace one of TJ Sanders or Deion Walker and you know they won't want to replace Deion Walker anymore because he's been a fine for them. But if you replace one of those defensive tackles with a wide receiver, the entire situation looks different and you at least have some, some kind of hope. So I think that's where it kind of led them astray. And that's the biggest reason why I could see them trading for a big name or trading way up to get one of the big names in the draft to do this thing. But the only tricky part is if they're trading for a veteran, they're pretty much up against it on the cap right now and they're going to have to do some work to fit that.
- [85:08]
Robert Mays
Guy in the name I keep coming back to. And we again, we'll talk about this as we get closer to the off season, but I'm calling Jacksonville and asking what they want for breakfast. Brian Thomas Jr. I just said that. That's, that's the first thing I'm doing because that allows you to worry about the cap situation and if you have to pay out the nose, draft capital wise, again, they put themselves in this position. I think overall we talked about this before they made the hire. I think there's a chance that the Bills just like win the super bowl next year because football is as much about variance as it is about a lot of other things. And we pretend that's not true, but it is. And so the idea that it would be Dable or Joe Brady or whoever. The Bills having like the best offense in the league next year year because they still have a good offensive line, they still have Josh Allen and like the past catching group is mildly better, is 100% on the table. The defense now is where like the real. And obviously, honestly that's an argument for not hiring an offensive minded head coach, by the way, because the offense, no matter who's over there, is probably going to be okay. When you have Josh Allen, the defense becomes the biggest question. Now, like you said, there are reports that Jim Leonard and you wrote this today, there's reports that Jim Leonard is the favorite to get that job. If that happens, I think Bill's fantastic. Might be. I could see feeling okay about how this is all gone like in the end being like, all right, if that's the staff, like, let's roll. We'll probably be in a decent spot. What do you think the defense coordinator search looks like right now and what do you think are the considerations as they weigh who those options should be?
- [86:28]
Joe Biscalia
Yeah, I think really anything or anybody is on the table for them right now because it is. I would not be surprised if they try to overpay to, to get whoever they want the most in Buffalo because it is so vital to what they're going to do because. Because they have really just signed off on this offense that they've run over the last two and a half seasons as their vision moving forward with Joe Brady at the head of that. That also gives complete autonomy to whoever they hire to be that defensive coordinator and set them up to potentially become a head coach of their own. Basically becoming the head coach of the defense the way that Brian Dabel was the head coach of the offense when he was in Buffalo the way that Joe Brady was the head of the offense when he was the offensive coordinator. So it is an attractive job in that respect. But it is going to take some time, too, because if they are changing things up schematically, like let's say they go to an odd man front, that completely changes the entire dynamic. But even something as simple of, okay, your principal, are you going to be a zone team or a man team? Do you have the man cover corners to do it? You probably do, but probably not at nickel. And there's still some other stuff. Do you want to get bigger at linebacker? Which was an issue for how do their defensive ends fit into the situation if they're not like a seven technique rather than a nine technique, which some teams do. So it all comes into just what the philosophies of this defensive mind is, and that's why they absolutely have to nail this. I think there's going to be a lot of turnover on the defensive staff. I think there's going to be a lot of turnover on the defensive personnel side with a bunch of the players, because that's the only way to go about it. There have been so many holdovers from the McDermott years that I think could have played their last down in Buffalo, and that is ultimately, I think, what is going to dictate the ceiling, ironically enough, of the Buffalo bills in 2026. And to your point, like, the variance is crazy. I could see the Bills winning the super bowl next year with Joe Brady as the head coach. I could also see them missing the playoffs entirely. And then we have another head coach conversation next year. Like, it's just with McDermott, this is what you removed. You knew what you had. You knew you were getting a floor. You knew that you were even going to push towards the AFC Championship Game, maybe even to the Super Bowl. If a couple of things go your way with Brady, all bets are off.
- [88:58]
Robert Mays
We don't know the nickel is an interesting thing to bring up. I think the decision they make on Teron Johnson is going to be like a canary in the coal mine sort of thing. If they, like, make him a June 1 cut and move on from him, I think it really, really shows. Okay, we're going in a wholly different direction here. This whatever version of the Bills we used to be, we are no longer holding on to, I think, in a lot of ways, because the other guys, like, Trey White's a free agent, right? Milano is a free agent. Like, there are so many guys that are just going to be gone anyway. Tron Johnson is the one guy who was like a pillar of what the Bills used to be defensively who is still under contract. And that's the one when I was looking at the contracts today where I was like, I'll be curious what they do there because I think that will be a symbol of like where this thing may be going under a different defensive coordinator. It's going to be fascinating, you and I. I'm sure we'll talk about this many more times over the course of this off season because again, when it comes to the big names, they might trade what the defensive makeover might look like. This is going to be one of the more intriguing teams of the spring of 2026 and I'm very excited to dig into it. Joe Biscalia, awesome to talk with you, man. Always appreciate the time. We'll do it again very soon.
- [90:01]
Joe Biscalia
Thanks, Robert.
- [90:05]
Robert Mays
Joining us now is one of our wonderful Eagles writers here at the Athletic, Carl Friendsk Berman. Zach, how are you doing, man?
- [90:10]
Zach Berman
I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on.
- [90:12]
Robert Mays
Excited to have this conversation with you. All right, let's, let's go through this. I want to just start with a big picture idea. How much should Eagles fans be concerned about the way this search has gone and how much should general NFL fans take from what this search has felt like from the Eagles building? Because I think that there are, there's a case to be made that there are alarm bells, words sound. The fact that this is a team that won the super bowl two years ago, has a ton of talent, didn't seem to be able to land some of the best offensive coordinator candidates on the board. Like the idea that Brian Dabel would rather go coach Cam Ward, who quarterbacked the worst team in the league last season rather than coming to Philadelphia, feels like it's something worth paying attention to. But I also understand how some of this happens. So if you had to kind of pin down how we've arrived at this moment with the Eagles offensive coordinator search, how would you start doing that?
- [91:06]
Zach Berman
Yeah, it's a fair question because we're talking here January 29th. The season ended two weeks ago and there's no still searching. And they're the only team that had a sitting head coach and offensive coordinator vacancy where that spot's still open. They started the search really with a targeted approach. I think Mike McDaniel and Brian Dabel were two former head coaches, play callers who they were interested in at the jump and they knew that was ambitious and they knew they weren't certain to Land them for a variety of factors we can get into. I think once that happened and once those, those coaches chose elsewhere, they were committed to casting a wide net, to exploring not just different candidates, but different ideas, gathering intel on their offense, gathering intel on kind of trends around the league and not, and not abiding by an arbitrary timeline at that point. So I think it was a targeted approach at first, and then I think since then there hasn't been this, this urgency to make a hire for the sake of making a hire.
- [92:08]
Robert Mays
That makes a ton of sense. And so if those are your two top quality candidates, you miss out on them. It's like, okay, the rest of the pool is similar in terms of how attractive the candidates are. Let's make sure we're turning over every rock to find the best one. I get that part of it. That's why this is extending maybe a little bit longer than you'd want. But I still think that there are potentially issues and concerns with why those guys wouldn't want to take this job. I'm sure it might be different for different people, but if you had to zero in on a reason that a guy like Brian Dable would not want the Eagles offensive coordinator job, what do you think that says?
- [92:41]
Zach Berman
Yeah, so it's, it's a great question because the, the attractive, the attractiveness of the jobs come up often. And I think each coach might have different reasons. Right. Whether you're Talking about Mike McDaniel and being in California with Justin Herbert. And when you look at the Tennessee situation, the reality is that you're joining a defensive head coach. You probably have, you know, you're the head coach of the offense, for lack of a, of a better term. Your time horizon you're dealing with is probably more generous than in Philadelphia. And it's a different market. I think there's like, big picture. There's a few factors that have complicated this. You can look at this job and you can say, in the past decade, three Eagles offensive coordinators have gone on to become head coaches. This has been a springboard job. It's a high profile team. There's a lot of talent, talent here. There's also, you know, if you put in a list of the top owners and GMs in the league, the Eagles have that. So there might be some pixie dust, if you will, that a potential head coach would want to come here and learn from. The flip side to this is, number one, there's. It's a quarterback who, his credentials are unquestioned. Super bowl mvp, five playoff Appearances in five years. But you're. You're probably having him adjust to your offense or you're adjusting to him more than he's adjusting to your offense. Right. And he's not the only quarterback in the, in the league you'd say that about. But the reality is you're. You're trying to fit Jalen into your system. That's. That's number one. Number two, this is, this is an intense place. You know this well, Robert. When you've been here, like they. It's. This is a very passionate fan base. It's a, It's a very intense media market. It's harder to be anonymous. It's the type of thing. And I don't think this is totally fair for Philly fans. But Kevin Petullo, the former offensive coordinator, his home was egged, right? And that's the exception. That's not the rule, but it kind of becomes like throwing snowballs at Santa Claus, where it's attached to the job in league circles. And that's something that they're fighting. Fighting, if you will. The third thing is there's a lot of internal pressure. It's not just external pressure. If you think about this, the last two offensive coordinators that were fired, it came after 11 win seasons. If that happens with the New York jets, you get a contract extension. Happens with the Eagles, you're dismissed. Right. And it's also a place where there's a lot of stakeholders involved. It's a strong gm, strong owner.
- [95:17]
Robert Mays
Super.
- [95:17]
Zach Berman
Bowl winning head coach, credentialed quarterback. Right. There's an offensive line coach that might be the best in the league at his role. There's a lot of different people who have established voices and earned equity, if you will, that it's not coming in to a blank slate. And then the last thing I'll say on this is as much as we talk about the blue chip talent, there's ambiguity about what the that's going to look like. I had a conversation with Saquon Barkley this season where he said the two best players on the team are Lane Johnson and A.J. brown. I can't tell you that A.J. brown and Lane Johnson are going to be on the team next year. So that's me saying it, not Saquon. I kind of transitioned from that. So I bring that up as a way of saying the blue chip talent is only there if it's there. And I think there's a lot of questions about what the Eagles offense will look like next year. So I can give you all the pluses for the job and they're real. But there are reasons why someone would look at a different opportunity and be attracted to it.
- [96:16]
Robert Mays
I think that's fantastically laid out. And listen, the egging of the house is like that gets a lot of headlines. And this isn't about like the fans are mean. You said two of the last four offensive coordinators and three of the last five or three of the last six have gotten head coaching jobs. Well, the other two of those last four in the Sirianni era got fired after one year. And so those are the two paths. You either get a head coaching job or you're fired after one year. And so. So that to somebody like Brian Dabel who is probably pretty confident that if he does a solid job at a place like Tennessee will be in the mix again next year for head coaching jobs, he doesn't need to deal with the headache of all of the pressure that comes along with a place like Philly. And I really do like the idea of the strength and the stature of the stakeholders because when you're Brian Dable and you go work with Robert Sala in Tennessee, the expectations are different. The entire side of the ball is yours. That's you. You are the head coach of the offense down there in Philly. That's just never going to be the case. You have offensive minded head coach who is going to have some input on the way things have gone. You have a GM and just a personnel department who again has a ton of power in that building. And for somebody like Mike McDaniel, I think it's a similar thing. He's going to get to go over there. He's going to get to implement his vision with the CEO type head coach. I completely understand all of that. That's why they were not able to get those guys and why we're still working through the process. Let's talk about the current state of the process and what the pool of candidates looks like. You know, they've really done, you said cast a wide net. They've done that. I mean the overall group that they're looking at, guys like Declan Doyle and other candidates that are involved in this job. Declan Doyle and Matt Nagy run extremely different offensive systems. If you look at what those offenses are. And so the fact that they're going to all these different places looking for solutions, I find that interesting. So if you had to kind of pick out the three to maybe five names that you think are the most relevant right now and why they might make sense for the job, what Would, what would, would that look like?
- [98:09]
Zach Berman
Yeah. So one name that's emerged in the past 48 hours or so is Sean Manion, the quarterback coach for the Green Bay Packers. And he's someone I'd pay attention to. And he's, he's not someone who a lot of fans might know, although he was a backup quarterback for, for nine years in the league, but has done from, from all indications, a real strong job with the Packers. The Eagles have interviewed him here and if you just think about the attention that Davis went, Webb's getting in Denver, very similar profile, a matter of fact, similar profile to Kellen Moore at one point when Kellen Moore became the OC for the Cowboys, where you go straight from backup quarterback to coaching. Don't have a long Runway there to become an OC now, he lacks play calling experience. And I think that's the big question here at, at this point is you can go with the established play caller, which Matt Nagy is. Even though he didn't do it in Kansas City, he's obviously done it in the past, former head coach, longtime offensive coordinator, or you can go with the up and coming coach at this point. I think at the start of the search, the idea was the Eagles were going to go with that established play caller because it's different from what Kevin Pthulo was. It's different from what Brian Johnson was in 2023. I think that's evolved as this has gone on and you've seen them be more open to now a human. You mentioned Declan Doyle over the weekend. If we had this conversation, I probably would have said he'd be the front runner. Since then, it sounds like he'll go back to the Bears, but that's just an example of how they're more interested in the offensive ideas, the offensive backgrounds. And I think that's what the vision is. Now. My understanding is they're offering autonomy over the offense, or at least they were initially. That'll probably depend on who the hire is. But so I mentioned Sean Manion, I mentioned Matt Nagy. Another name you hear here is Jim Bob Cooter, who's the offensive coordinator for the Colts. He was with the Eagles in 2021 as an offensive assistant. He worked with Nick Sirianni in Kansas City. So there's some background there. I know Frank Smith's a name that has, that has come up as well, but I think the two names I would really pay attention to or the three I would say are Sean Manion, there's Matt Nagy, and then there's Jim Bob Kuder. And there's always the chance of like a door number three, someone we're not talking about emerging late in the process.
- [100:28]
Robert Mays
Sean Manion is such a fun name. I Kevin Stefanski told me once that the moment that Sean Manion stopped retired, the moment that Sean Manion retired, he'd want him to be his quarterbacks coach like the moment that it happened. And so he only he worked with Sean for I think two years, maybe even a year with the Vikings when Sean was the backup quarterback there. And so even when he was a player, there was an understanding from everybody that like, oh, he'll be a really good coach the moment that he decides to coach. He did. He's the quarterbacks coach the packers already. You just said he's already in like the top two options to potentially be the offensive coordinator for the Eagles. And so based on what I had heard about him as just a coaching prospect, that should not be surprising. The packers offense is very different than the Eagles, right? I mean just the amount of under center play action that we see and I think that can be a good thing. And I think that's going to be the question with this, right? Is that, okay, how can you fold in some ideas that maybe are more popular around the league that don't necessarily fall in line with who the Eagles are? The amount of motion that the packers use, the amount of under center play action the packers use, the ways they try to access the middle of the field, just that the set of ideas on offense is very different. And I think that can be a good thing if you find the right middle ground between them. And that's honestly why I find Jim Bob Cooter such an interesting candidate for something like this because I think what Shane has done so well they obviously he comes from the same schematic background as Nick Sirianni does. But if you look at what the Colts offense is, he has iterated on a lot of those ideas and evolved a lot of those ideas. And so the fact that Jim Bob Cooter watched that process happen where you're taking the 2022 Eagles offense and then building it into what the 2025 Colts offense is, sharing the same language and understanding that sort of path forward, that is intriguing to me. Like that is why somebody like Jim Bob Bob Cooter in my mind could make sense for something like this.
- [102:17]
Zach Berman
It's a valid point and I think, I personally think, and I know there be there'll be people who might disagree that Jalen Hurts deserves more credit. I mean, look, I'm not in the meeting rooms but conversations I've had with Jalen have indicated that he wants to grow, he wants to evolve. He doesn't want to be the same quarter he grew from Album, Bama and Oklahoma. He, he grew from his rookie year that 2022 and now he's obviously he has an idea of what might fit him best, but I think he might be more open to some concepts than the, than the reputation might be. So yeah, I do think this offense must evolve. I think there are things that, that they can incorporate league trends that would be better. I think the big thing and this goes back to watching that Rams Seahawks game the other day and Tom Brady says on the telecast a good coordinator gets his quarterbacks layups. And when you watch the Eagles offense, especially this past year, there just weren't enough layups. Everything seemed like a chore to move down the field. And I think that what would serve the end and that might not be on Petullo, that might be on a lot of different factors. But what the Eagles need to do better is get those high percentage passes, get their receivers the ball in space, have I don't know if A.J. brown's going to be here, but Devonta Smith a chance to get yards after the catch, that's going to be critical for the Eagles. So watching what those trends are and figuring out how to maximize them. And look, this was the conversation when they hired Kellen Moore and it kind of started that way and then evolved into a Saquon Barkley run first offense. And you do what you have to do to win. But the reality is the Eagles aren't paying, paying A.J. brown and DeVonta Smith to be decoys in the offense. You need to maximize the talent and that's what the Eagles haven't done well enough.
- [104:08]
Robert Mays
There are so many situations in the NFL that could only happen to the Philadelphia Eagles just for so many different reasons. And this is one of them where you could imagine again they find the right guy. Jim, Bob Cooter, Sean Manion, maybe even Matt Nagy is right for the job. He gets you over the exact same sort of bar that Kellen Moore did. This team wins 13 games next year. They look like an absolute monster by the time we get to the playoffs and they're in another Super Bowl. You could also see them hiring the wrong guy and everyone getting fired at the end of next year. And so just the breadth of outcomes that always feels like it's associated with this team is a unique proposition in the NFL. And I feel like this offensive coordinator search is no different.
- [104:50]
Zach Berman
You're absolutely right. That's like, like those are the stakes of this right now. And it might seem preposterous to discuss, discuss because Nick Sirianni, I mean less than a year ago at this point, almost 365 days ago, was in New Orleans holding up the Lombardi Trophy. But time moves quickly in the NFL and you've seen this in Philadelphia with Doug Peterson, that the expectation is that you'll compete every year for a championship and that regression's not really permitted, especially when you have this type of talent. So look, Nick Siri on, he has a better winning percentage than any coach in the NFL. Like that's a fact. Five years, five playoff appearances, two super bowl appearances, one Super Bowl. Like you can't argue with his resume. But the Eagles are in win now mode and they need to figure out a way to maximize 2026. And that's why this search is so fascinating. Because if you take an unknown, maybe that coach develops two, three years in down the line into an outstanding coordinator, that doesn't do the Eagles any good next year. They need to figure out how to maximize 2026.
- [105:53]
Robert Mays
Always a good time in Philadelphia. Zach Berman, sincerely appreciate the time, sir. Appreciate your insight. We'll talk to you again very soon.
- [105:59]
Zach Berman
Appreciate it. Thank you.
- [106:01]
Robert Mays
All right, that's all we got for today. Thanks to Dave, thanks to Derek, thank you to Joe, thank you to Zach Berman. That is all we've got for this week. The next time you hear from us, we will be in San Francisco for the Super Bowl. We got a little Senior bowl river recap coming your way on Monday, just a Monday version of Building the Beast because we got a lot of super bowl stuff coming your way for the rest of the week. We got a full slate of shows coming to your guys way from San Francisco. We're talking to both B writers on Tuesday, which I'm very much looking forward to. Always great to chat with Chad Graff and Michael, Shawn Dugar and then a couple other super bowl specific shows in the middle of the week followed by our big old super bowl preview on Friday. We're going to be having a a ton of video specific stuff that's going to be hitting the YouTube channel that we're going to be working on over the course of the week. Some of it will be coming out in the short term, some will be coming out over the next month or so, but got a lot of fun discussions on tap with some folks on Radio Row the other exciting thing I'm really looking forward to. Next week Derek pays off the WINS pool bet on Radio Row and so that is going to be a very fun day as we sit there with Derek looking like an idiot in front of all the people that we work with. For now, that is all we've got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon. Everyone deserves to be connected. That's why T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com switch and now T mobile is in US cellular stores. Savings versus Comparable Verizon plans plus the cost of optional benefits. Plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third line free via monthly bill credits.
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