← The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
The duality of this cycle's coaching hires, and the moves still to come, with Jourdan Rodrigue
01:11:57
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- [00:00]
Robert Mays
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- [01:01]
Jordan Rodriguez
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- [02:05]
Robert Mays
Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Sticking with the coaching carousel on the midweek show this week. Really nothing else we could do. So much stuff has happened over the last seven days and I mean, there are coaching hires that we haven't even hit on the show. Kevin Stefanski, Robert Sala Going to the Titans. So Jordan Rodriguez joined me today to run through the hires that have happened. And for those, we. We played something of a little game where I wanted to look at recent success stories that kind of align with the archetype of that coach and the coach that these teams hired and recent failures. You know, when. What is the best case scenario for this based on some recent examples, and what is the worst case? So we did that for all four of the hires that have already happened. And then for the jobs that are open, we also kind of gamified it a little bit. We went through each of the jobs and talked about what they are, what they are not, and when you consider both of those things, who is the right person to get these jobs at the end of the day. So really enjoyed this conversation with Jordan. Let's get to it right now. Joining us today, a senior writer at the Athletic, also a member of the NFL daily podcast team, it's our old friend Jordan Rodri. Jordan, how you doing?
- [03:18]
Jordan Rodriguez
Hi, Robert. I'm good. I was just in your city. I loved it, but also almost died from windchill. No exaggeration, not being dramatic. So now I'm soft and back in L. A. So how are you?
- [03:32]
Robert Mays
I spent five years in Los Angeles, and I can't tell you how long it took me to get to a place where I was fine being outside in Chicago in the winter. So the fact that you parachuted in for the weekend and couldn't handle it, it says nothing about you. I want you to know that.
- [03:44]
Jordan Rodriguez
Thank you. I really needed to hear that.
- [03:46]
Robert Mays
Actually, we're spending today scooping up more of the coaching news. It's. We do a show every day, and I still. There still aren't enough shows to, like, get in everything that we want to talk about because of how crazy the news cycle has been. So we haven't even talked about things like Kevin Stefanski going to Atlanta. The Jeff Halfley thing happened on Monday, right as we were finishing up our Monday Hangover episode. We only talked about that for about 10 minutes. And so the plan right now is we're going to go through all of these hirings that have happened, and I want to do something specific with them. I want to talk about some recent historical examples or comparisons for how, like, this sort of archetype that these teams are chasing can work and then cannot work. Just to kind of provide a this is the blue sky version. This is the devil's advocate version. What might we see based on what these teams have done and the choices that they've made. So we'll do that for like the three or four hirings that have happened. And then there are also a bunch of jobs that are still open. And this is an idea that you had that I think is fun. Just kind of going through these jobs and talking about what they are and what they are not. And then we'll talk about, based on some of the candidates that have interviewed who we think right now the best fit for what the job really is should be at the end of this process. So that's how we're going to handle today.
- [05:06]
Jordan Rodriguez
I love it. You know, I love this stuff. It's such a messy, fun time of year. Robert. And like, like you said, it feels like first of all, this is unprecedented. I know you guys have covered it at length and very well in your show, but like this is so unprecedented. And the fact that there have been not just been 10 openings, but coordinator movement is happening and all of that, I mean, it's a wild ride.
- [05:25]
Robert Mays
So let's buckle in before we start this exercise. Just like an example from like what last year would have been. Right. And I, I go to Ben Johnson because why wouldn't I go to Ben Johnson in the moment when they were hiring Ben Johnson and you looked at a person from his background and just the archetype of coach that they were seeking out. I think the different pads there, and obviously one is extremely good. Is he going to be closer to what Sean McVeigh has been for the Rams, or is he going to be closer to what an Arthur Smith was for the Falcons? Right. Which Arthur Smith, I think, did a fine job in Atlanta. It wasn't disaster by any stretch, but obviously those are two different types of success. And so that's what the Ben Johnson would have won, would have been last year. And so that's what we're going to do for these four guys that have taken these jobs. Let's start with John Harbaugh to the Giants. We've talked a little bit about this on a bunch of different shows. I don't think we have to spend as much time on the fact that it actually happened. The bit of news that's worth updating is it seems like right now if he does not get a head coaching job, that Todd Monken and Anthony Weaver, both of whom are up for some of these jobs, are the favorites in the clubhouse to be the coordinat, which I don't know how you feel about that. If I were a Giants fan, I think I'd be pretty satisfied with that being the end point with those guys working with John Harbaugh. But that seems to be the latest bit of news that matters when it comes to the Giants opening and Harbaugh getting it.
- [06:36]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah. And I think Todd Monken sort of forecasted this also because they had broadcast their loyalty. Some of the reporting that came out before John Harbaugh was fired or before they mutually parted ways, they, you know, the loyalty was very clear. Todd Monken had basically known to other people if wherever he goes, I'm going. And, you know, we're a package. We're sort of a package deal here. And some of the loyalty that it was reported that John Harbaugh had toward Todd Monken during the, the final days of his tenure there. And I like Anthony Weaver, you know, you know, this. Robert, we've, we've talked about this. Like, I think that's a great, I think that's. He's a really great hire and he's head coaching material. So if you can get a guy like that on your staff, that's great.
- [07:23]
Robert Mays
Yeah, it's fun because Todd Monken, him and John Harbaugh have worked, never worked together before the last couple years. They're not two guys that are like, thick as thieves going back years and years and years. So I actually appreciate the fact that, yeah, over like a two year period, they've developed this, like, very strong bond, apparently. All right, let's do this for the John Harbaugh case for the Giants, who is like a recent success story in the coaching hiring cycle that you can point to and say, all right, this is the positive example of what John Harbaugh can be for the Giants.
- [07:54]
Jordan Rodriguez
It sounds crazy, but I would say Mike Vrabel in this case.
- [07:57]
Robert Mays
Interesting. Okay.
- [07:59]
Jordan Rodriguez
I don't think that John Harbaugh gives you a schematic edge the way that Mike V goes, but if this is a best case scenario, the Giants, in my opinion, need infrastructural change at a very basic level of their organization. And I feel like even though they have, you know, the draft and development process where they've selected guys with good traits, they've selected talent, putting it together in a cohesive way as an actual team, building an ecosystem, you have flashy pieces. You know, John Harbaugh had mentioned in his comments that he really liked some of the scouting staff and some of the infrastructure that the, that the Giants have available to them, some of the technology that they have available to them. He obviously wants to build out a more robust analytics department there. But it's pieces right it's all pieces of things that are there. And what Mike Vrabel did in New England was he dug in and he reset infrastructurally from the front office perspective and also from a team building and roster perspective, what it was going to mean moving forward to be a New England Patriot with respect to the past, but obviously a different, very different new identity in the future. And I think that's what John Harbaugh, in a best case scenario and what the Giants certainly hope this is going to happen. They can say all they want about who's in charge and who reports to who and every we're fine, everything's good. We're going to hold the helmet equally in our press conference and it's awesome. They can say it all they want. John Harbaugh is going to dig in there and they're in my estimation and should dig in there and turn a bunch of interesting pieces within this organization into an actual team.
- [09:32]
Robert Mays
Thinking about the structure and the dynamics involved and like how much is going to be on the head coach's plate where like Mike Vrabel is kind of the figurehead of the Patriots organization, even if Elliot Wolf is in charge of the personnel department, I think that's a good thing to bring up. Maybe this is just me lacking imagination, but like I just look at what Jim Harbaugh has done for the Chargers, like because it's. Because I love going back to this idea of like, all right, you're hiring us 60 something year old CEO type coach. Like when and how has this worked in the past? And it's just like, oh, Jim Harbaugh is this from two years ago? And so I, and I think, because here's the reason that I go back to it beyond the, the role in the building, right? Where again you were a CEO coach, you're not calling offense or defense, you are a culture setter. But also what you're trying to establish. I think the Chargers were really trying to reset what the culture was like in that building. And I think that's exactly what the Giant, what the Giants are trying to. I think what you're trying, what you're really shooting for here if you're the Giants is you're trying to establish a certain floor and a certain level of overall competency within the organization. And I think ideally that's what John Harbaugh gives you in the exact same way that Jim Harbaugh did over the last couple years in la. The one thing that I think is important with that sort of hire and I go back to this over and over and over again. Your coordinators in that hire are extremely important. And Jesse Minter has obviously been hugely important in the Chargers going to the playoffs, back to back years. The offensive coordinator higher two years in, they already needed to switch that out because I think the coordinators help establish your ceiling as that type of coach helps helps establish your floor. And that's why I think you can make an argument that with Monken and Anthony Weaver, like the Giants, even without the quarterback, that the Chargers have, are set up for success with this type of model. So that's the one that I would go to.
- [11:20]
Jordan Rodriguez
I love it. His brother, I think. But it's perfect because that's exactly. You're exactly right. And it's kind of what I mentioned. The Giants may not admit that they need this, but they need it similar to how the Chargers needed it needed it when they brought Jim Harbaugh in. Somebody who was going to take a bunch of pieces of things within an organization and turn it into an identity. And that's what Mike Vrabel had to do. Even though the Patriots had the legacy of what, you know, being like dynastically competent right before, but weren't for a couple of years. It's similar. It's these personalities of these CEO head coaches who, yes, Frable does give you an edge. I think he could call a game still if he wanted to, but it's. It's Jim Harbaugh being a great example. And I think the age thing is a factor here too, because you have to. You have to know you're making the right decision when you do have coaches who are maybe closer to retirement than they were when they entered the league. And to have that energy. And I think that's another thing that's really important and a great comp between all three of these potential, like, hey, here's the vision board is the energy level. Because no one is going to accuse Jim Harbaugh of not having the energy as a CEO head coach. No one will accuse Mike Vrabel as a CEO head coach not having the energy. Certainly no one will do that with John Harbaugh. It takes a specific brand of insanity to dig into an organization in that way at that level where, like I said, I don't think the Giants want to admit it, but infrastructural change is needed in every phase of that building. And I think he's the person that, you know, obviously they hope can do it similar to how Jim did in Los Angeles.
- [12:52]
Robert Mays
So that's how it can go right? How can it go wrong? What is a recent example of where this couldn't work out? If you're the Giants.
- [12:58]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yes, I think we have the same one. So if you don't mind, I'll just sort of stomp all yours here. But Pete Carroll, obviously, it's very easy.
- [13:06]
Robert Mays
Yeah.
- [13:06]
Jordan Rodriguez
Because, I mean, you're. You're hiring a huge name and someone with charisma and somebody with vision and somebody who has won and somebody who has a clear outline for what he wants. And by the way, somebody who came in and took control immediately, operationally, had significant say in hiring, had significant say in. In the roster construction and all of these things, and it was a fiasco. And so that's where it can go wrong. Making a poor decision and then pivoting from it, I think is a credit to the Raiders here. Doesn't tarnish to me, Pete Carroll's overall legacy at all. But that is the danger when you do hire. I hate this term, but like the alpha CEO coach is, you're all in on that person. And if it goes well, then you do get those positive examples. But if it goes the way that it just did in Las Vegas, you get absolute disaster in fighting chaos, nepotism, the whole gamut.
- [14:06]
Robert Mays
And I think with this sort of hire and this sort of approach, you're shooting for a floor. You can always fall short of that. Right. Like, the floor can always fall out. And that's the problem, and I think that's a reasonable criticism of a hire like this, is that you can make an argument that if you're not going for the play caller, that's going to make sure you're maximizing one side of the ball, that you are kind of shooting for the middle. Like John Harbaugh had Lamar Jackson for years and years and years. Like that type of quarterback, being paired with the CEO coach is incredibly important for the success of those types of coaches. And so it's possible that you end up with a coaching staff here that simply raises the level of competency, but doesn't raise the overall ceiling. And if the first part doesn't happen, the floor can still fall out of it. And so I think that's a reasonable criticism of a hire like this. But I look at the comparison to Jim Harbaugh, it's like if the Giants made the playoffs each of the next two years, even if that ultimately ended up being their ceiling. Does the John Harbaugh era become a success? I think undeniably, yes, based on how the last Couple years of Giants football have gone.
- [15:13]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah, I agree. And I think it is so much of what we're talking about today and what we'll continue to talk about, you've brought it up, is understanding, like, the potential of the floor. Like understanding, first of all, where your floor currently is and how is this the right person who can actually do the things to raise it. I think you could look at hindsight, which is so easy to do, and look at the Raiders and say, well, you really needed somebody who gave you a schematic advantage to work around the roster deficiencies, and you needed somebody who maybe wasn't going to take such control over pieces of the roster and the coaching staff. This wasn't the case. Maybe it felt like it because, again, that charisma, man, and everyone looks cool in black and silver and all that stuff. But at the same time, I think in hindsight, so with coaches like Jim and John Harbaugh having that infrastructural understanding of, okay, this is where you're at as an organization and these are the things I can do to. To increase competence becomes really, really important. And, you know, Pete Carroll may have outlined a vision that, that they really, really liked and believed in at the time. It goes sideways fast if you don't. If you as the candidate, as the coach, come in without a real understanding of what that competence level is.
- [16:28]
Robert Mays
Next one here. We haven't talked about this, I don't think at all on the show because it happened on the. During the weekend and we didn't really have time to hit it on Monday. Kevin Stefanski is the new head coach of the Atlanta Falcons.
- [16:37]
Jordan Rodriguez
What?
- [16:38]
Robert Mays
Yeah, it just somehow it just kind of slipped through the cracks. We were waiting to do it today. Just some initial thoughts about this and just talking to people about it. This one always. It made sense to me as a pairing, like, as soon as that job came open and knowing, I think, how selective he was going to be with the certain jobs that were available this time around and his willingness to potentially sit out if there wasn't a good job. This is, I think, a good job in a lot of ways. I think it's an organization where there is respect for just the way they operate. Like, I don't think it's seen as like a dysfunctional place based on my understanding, Matt Ryan. And that can go either way. Right. Like, you bring in somebody like that and that sort of role. I think that Matt Ryan was construed as a positive for some coaching candidates heading to Atlanta, not a negative. And you also have small things like them keeping Jeff Ulbricht as the defensive coordinator and that being, I think, a selling point where that's not, oh, you're going to be married to this guy. It was, oh, we already have a guy in place that I think has done a good job and could continue to do a good job. And so I just always felt like this one potentially made sense for both Stefanski and the Falcons. And so I was not surprised when I saw the news that it actually did get done.
- [17:48]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah. And you better take the job because otherwise we're making the D.C. the head coach. Right. So it's like, it's kind of one of those things. I like it. I liked the fit we'll get into, obviously the quarterback questions and all of that. Sounds like Matt Ryan really likes Michael Pennix as well. I was talking to someone recently who had worked in Atlanta for a really long time because I was voicing my, I guess, sort of cantankerousness over the fact that this job seemed to be like custom built for Matt Ryan. So, like, why go through the entire show of all of it? And this person kind of set me a little bit straighter, I think, because it was like, someone needs to be able to tell the owner he's full of crap. And the only person who can do that when the time may arise to do so is Matt Ryan. Right. And so having that gravitas and presence in the building without, and we don't know how it'll go, but potentially without being a little bit too interfering and letting the GM that they eventually bring in do that work, I think having somebody who can be very brutally honest with different facets of that organization could prove to be beneficial. It definitely got me thinking, maybe this could be a good thing for the Falcons.
- [19:04]
Robert Mays
What is the positive case for how the Kevin Stefanski hire could work out in Atlanta based on some historical comparisons?
- [19:12]
Jordan Rodriguez
Honestly, this one gave me some trouble, but it's hard. It's.
- [19:16]
Robert Mays
It's hard. You gotta dig back a little bit. I have a couple, but there's no good one for one.
- [19:20]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah. So there's no good one for one. So I kind of looked at some of the ones that were tricky for me to one to one, and I thought, who do they want? How do they want this to turn out? Like, how would this team, in their best case scenario, like, who would they want this to be? And I'm thinking Matt LaFleur, who they had in their building, by the way.
- [19:37]
Robert Mays
Interesting.
- [19:38]
Jordan Rodriguez
At one point, I think they would like this to turn into a Matt LaFleur scenario where they're going to take care of the defensive side. Organizationally, it's sort of a team effort in bringing in the people for that. But on this point, getting the quarterback correct and maximizing the quarterback so they think and building a consistency like we can win consistent consistently. And that's what we're thinking about right now. We're not thinking about what happens next, potentially getting, you know, beyond the seven seed, for example. We're not thinking about getting past that. We need to figure out how to win and how to maximize a quarterback. And I think their best case with Stefanski maybe is a comp with Matt LaFleur in that regard.
- [20:23]
Robert Mays
I like that. I, I so I went a little bit more specific in terms of, like, the dynamics at play here and like, what type of co like what his background has looked like, because we almost never see this. And the bad case, I'll point this out. We almost never see retread head coaches take a job the very next year. It just doesn't happen very often. If you look back at the last 20 years, there aren't many examples of it. But I we have plenty of retread head coaches that take a year off and then I think have a version of success at that next stop. And when I think about, all right, how could this go well for Atlanta, I look at two retreads that I think had a decent amount of success at that either second or third stop. One is Gary Kubiak in Denver and one is Norv Turner with the Chargers.
- [21:05]
Jordan Rodriguez
I love that one.
- [21:06]
Robert Mays
Which is funny because both of those guys heavily influenced who Kevin Stefanski is as a coach. Yes, he either worked for them or worked with them at some point. And so I think that there's a lot of, like, cool connection points as to why it fits, that both of them were older when they got these jobs. And there's a lot of different things. But I go back to, like, those two cases is how this could work. The main differences, both of those guys, when they got to those jobs, Nora Turner had Philip Rivers and Gary Kubiak had Peyton Manning. And so the clarity of quarterback here is very, very different for what the Falcons are dealing with. And I have no idea at this stage how this gets sorted out, whether Kirk starts the season and they play penix or how tired they are to Pennx, I think that's probably going to be an ongoing discussion, but I think that's the main differentiator. But those are the two guys that I Landed on where it's like, okay, if it turned out like this, I think the Falcons would probably be pretty happy with the results.
- [22:06]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah, I love that. Especially with the, with the lineage. I have for about 10 years been working on my North Turner impression. Oh, Kevin, what are you going to give me a call about that senior assistant job? So Norm, I would, you know, we might see him pop up in the news for hey, senior consultant to the head coach or. Or something like this. But yeah, and, and this is what I also love about this is we're reinventing the Kubiak system a little bit. Like where the kettle of Kubiak's is now populated across the league. And, and also the Kevin Stefanski himself getting a retread opportunity like this revitalizes that system. And we've seen it in some of these coaching cycles before. And I love the possibility of that. I love those comps because you kind of. We just don't know with the quarterback. But there's. There's a person in there that, that both of those teams, in the examples that you used, maximizing who you do have, yes, it's, you know, hall of Fame talent, but maximizing who you do have was the onus on in making those decisions back for those organizations at the time. And it certainly is the same here.
- [23:22]
Robert Mays
Yeah. I just think that the level of talent he's going to have independent of the quarterback is just so much better than it's been over the last couple years. And I think that's the selling point. And I think the last thing for coaches that were interested in this job, and I think it did play a role in how attractive it was to some people, the division is much more winnable than a lot of the other jobs available. You're going to walk in there and there's a chance you can win the division in year one. And I do think that that is appealing to guys as they consider whether to take these gigs. And I wouldn't be surprised if it played a role. And Kevin Stefanski winding up with the Falcons, the case against this working out, I have a pretty rough one. I don't know where you landed on this.
- [24:00]
Jordan Rodriguez
Okay. It's super mean. It's also Kevin Stefanski, like the case for this not working out is also Kevin Stefanski with the Cleveland Browns where to me he sort of lost his voice slash couldn't figure out what his voice was within the organization.
- [24:20]
Robert Mays
That was a couple year process.
- [24:22]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah. And. And ultimately all of the promise and optimism by bringing in somebody who, like the Falcons think now gives their offense specifically such a competitive edge, schematically and in terms of coaching and play calling and talent. But then for it to backslide so significantly because of ownership interference, because of front office decision making, because of a head coach who just sort of went along or seems optically, may not be fair to say, but optically just went along with it, understanding he didn't have that significant of a say in the matter. That's where when you bring in, you know, Arthur Blank, who I like a lot, you know, for. For a billionaire, I think he's all right. But like it's, it's. It's also like, I think that he, he enter, he does met, he doesn't. He's interested, he interferes, he meddles. Maybe Matt Ryan is a stopping point for that. Maybe it ultimate. We don't know. Maybe it ends up that Matt Ryan becomes the meddler. We don't know. Right. But this example of strong personalities at ownership, front office, convicted decision makers in all of those facets, and a head coach brought in to become an advantage for a team that never could quite maximize it as such for a variety of disastrous reasons. I don't. I hope that nothing is ever that. That stupid again. But at the same time like this, Kevin Stefanski is the example of things going wrong in an organization for Kevin Stefanski.
- [25:54]
Robert Mays
And I think part of the reason this job was appealing is that this is not a rebuild. Yeah, right. And I think that that's having the push and the pull of being competitive and then really understanding that you were tearing it down, but then also trying to be competitive like it. There was just so many competing timelines and motivations because of how misaligned so many of the things were because of Watson trade turned out. So I think getting to a place now where it's like we're not rebuilding anything, like, I don't think you have to win the super bowl in year one, but like you have enough talent here to win right now. And we want to just do everything we can to maximize what this season looks like. I think that will be fun for Kevin Stefanski because I think it's been a couple years where that has been since that has been the charge with him as the head coach. So I think that's an important distinction the case against. For me, it just, it's solely because of again, like what the timeline we're talking about where you have guy going straight back into being a head coach after having middling success at the previous job. And I do not think that this will happen. But I do think that this is the best comparison for how it could go poorly is Adam Gase with the Jets.
- [26:57]
Jordan Rodriguez
I knew you were going to do it.
- [26:59]
Robert Mays
It's. I think that Kevin Stefanski is better coach Adam Gase. I think that the Atlanta roster is significantly better than the jets roster was. I'm just saying that when you look at retread offensive coach going right from one job to the next, that is the last example that we have and it's just worth mentioning at the very least.
- [27:17]
Jordan Rodriguez
I do think that's worth mentioning. For a minute there I thought and the age difference is maybe what, what wouldn't. But the worst, worst case scenario, Frank Wright retread going oh yeah, absolutely, yes. And then just being like nope, this is not for me anymore actually fellas. But Adam Gase I think is the right comp because in terms of, of age when rehire like all of those types of things and, and energy level required to, you know, bring that edge that everyone thought and, and, and believed that he had that, that he did have as an assistant coach. And yeah, I, I really like those parallels. I mean I don't like them, but I like that you said that.
- [27:54]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I, again, I, I do not. I think I have more faith in it working out, but I do think historically that is at least a comp that you have to mention. Yes, we're gonna take our first quick break and then come back with the other two hires that have already happened in this cycle.
- [28:07]
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- [29:25]
Robert Mays
A few steaks weeks.
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- [33:07]
Robert Mays
All right, Jeff Hafley is the Miami Dolphins new head coach. Let's start with the case for how this could work out for Jeff Halfley and the Dolphins.
- [33:17]
Jordan Rodriguez
This was, this was a tough one for me again because I don't think it's hard for me to think of something that's, that's one to one.
- [33:24]
Robert Mays
Oh, this one, this was, this one was easy for me. Weirdly enough. I like immediately went somewhere.
- [33:28]
Jordan Rodriguez
But if I went, but okay. And my brain immediately went somewhere and I was like, is that actually right? Maybe. I don't know. It feel, it felt a little off to me still. So you let me know what you think about this because I'm thinking if this works out in a best case scenario, relative unknown coach who, you know, had worked with a bunch of different teams as an assistant still, you know, kind of became a name in the cycle when it started. If it's a best case scenario. And I'm thinking Like defense as well. I'm thinking they hope the Dolphins hope that this is Mike Tomlin. They hope that this is.
- [34:01]
Robert Mays
Oh, wow, that's shooting high.
- [34:02]
Jordan Rodriguez
Okay, I know, I know, right? Because that's where I'm like, it seems like such. But I'm thinking like this is the best, best case scenario that they hope that this is. I don't know that anything really can be that. But in terms of a young guy who has worked with some really talented people but has been behind the scenes and under the radar for a long time, they hope that they're like ceiling becomes organizational stability. Right. And I don't know that Jeff Halfley's the guy for that, but I do think that if you're looking at what they're trying to put in their building and historical comps to what they hope that this will be, you could do a lot worse, I think, than, than shooting for. Shooting for the optimism of a, of a Mike Tomlin hire.
- [34:47]
Robert Mays
Well, the only, the only reason I feel like. And I think that's. That's an interesting one to throw out there. I just think that The Steelers in 2006 were in a much different place than the Dolphins were in right now. Right? Like the Steelers were competitive. They were 10 and 6 in Tomlin's first year, he kind of took a team that was ready to win. The one that I went to is Sean McDermott, like, like what Sean McDermott took over in Buffalo. Like this is a rebuild in Miami, like they're gonna. And the same way that the Bills did, where the Bills had to kind of dig themselves out of that dead money hole based on what the previous roster had looked like, the Dolphins are about to have to do that with the two a deal. And so bringing in a young defensive minded head coach who I think the entire point is, all right, we're gonna be putting this thing back together. We need guys that play hard. We need to establish like a certain way that things go around here that people are going to look at McDermott and say, well, he had Josh Allen. He didn't have Josh Allen in year one.
- [35:41]
Jordan Rodriguez
Right.
- [35:41]
Robert Mays
And like year one when they kind of really showed that they had the ability to change the direction of things here. I think that if you're. The Dolphins being the 2017 Bills is probably the best case scenario for the 2026 Dolphins. And so that, that one to me was like. And there was a weird. So McDermott with. When he was in Carolina, over his entire tenure, they finished 12th in EPA per play on defense. So they Were good, but they weren' the best defense in the league. Jeff Halfley, two years combined, 12th in EPA per play on defense for the Packers. And so I was like, you know what? I like that one. I think that one actually does make some sense.
- [36:19]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah, I like that a lot. I like that way more than mine. I love that we're thinking about this in a way, in the ways that the organizations are, too. Like, what's our best case scenario? Like, if we're shooting for the moon, and then what's more likely based on where we're at right now? Like, I. I love that because, like, first of all, you know, we're recording this after a press conference that I'm sure will be much discussed on this show and many others.
- [36:43]
Robert Mays
Sure will be.
- [36:44]
Jordan Rodriguez
And I gotta say, like, good for Sean McDermott, honestly. Like. Like, yes, it was time. I'm sure. I. I think it was time to. To move on and to. To figure out, like, what you were gonna do next. But, like, good for him, honestly, because maybe he becomes this, the next successful retread coach somewhere. Maybe he takes some time off, but. But this is. I like that comp. Because cultural reset in a lot of ways. It's almost like they overcorrected in when they hired Brian Flores, who I know we both think the world of, but there was some bumps when he was in Miami, and then they overcorrected almost and got like, the. The cool guy, the young offensive guy that, like, everybody was pals with. That didn't work out either. So now it's sort of like you're looking for the middle. You're looking for a guy who understands organizational stability, even though he's very, very new in the league. And you're looking for a guy who has done a lot of different things within the infrastructure of a team. Like Sean McDermott did. Like, you know, like. Like in the highest possible positive scenario, like, Like a Tomlin did. You're looking for somebody who can come in and apply those lessons and those teachings to other elements of your organization.
- [38:03]
Robert Mays
The case against Jeff Halfley in Miami. How could this not work out? Based on some recent examples.
- [38:10]
Jordan Rodriguez
No. Quarterback. Quarterback. Take the quarterback out. Brandon Staley.
- [38:16]
Robert Mays
Brandon Staley and Matty Refluz are the.
- [38:18]
Sponsor Voice 1
Two that I had.
- [38:18]
Robert Mays
There's a. There's a lot of them. There's a lot of, like, defensive head coaches that just don't work out. And so this one was. One of. You could pick five guys and make a pretty easy comparison.
- [38:27]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah, and I think. I think about, like, he Jeff Halfley has the, the tree bump. Right. Obviously Matt LaFleur might be proud. Like he gave someone the bump. You know, it wasn't just Sean or Kyle and it was like the hot name on the cycle. Right. Even in a kind of weird and underwhelming in some ways cycle. Definitely the hot name there. The guy who people are touting as giving a clear schematic advantage speaks, you know, very clearly about a vision for how he would see the organization has a clear vision and a scheme that he's going to implement specifically into that defense. I think the, the parallels are, are quite there. Again, leaving out the quarterback of a, of a possible worst case scenario because again it's, it's an organization that that's in constantly in flux and has been for some time. As the Chargers were when they hired Brandon.
- [39:24]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I think, I think it's the best comparison. Like if you really think about it, I think for everything that you laid out, it is the best comparison. Last one here, Robert Sala to the Titans. The only news kind of to scoop up here, still figuring out who the offensive coordinator is going to be. There was some speculation that it was going to be Mike McDaniel. Obviously that did not happen and it seems like right now I know Diana reported today that Brian D. Looks like he's leaning toward either trying to be the Bills head coach or taking the Titans OC job. So if they land with Brian Dabel, I think that's probably something that you can be happy about if you're a Titans fan like based on all the available options. But Robert Sala to the Titans. The case for how this can work out with Robert Sal and the Titans. My answer is actually one you've already said.
- [40:07]
Jordan Rodriguez
Well, and I love that. So I'm gonna pivot from because I know what you're gonna say and I love that. And hold that thought because I'll go quick one that you've already said. My answer for Robert sala was Sean McDermott. If they hope that this goes and introduces competence and culture and personality, all those types of things. We've already talked about the McDermott positivity gradient. So I want to hear yours.
- [40:29]
Robert Mays
It's Mike Vrabel. I mean it's like this is you talk about and it's even like the one year off retread like in every way. And it is, you just mentioned it. Where we have these organizations that ping pong between these archetypes of coaches and they do it purposefully. And so the Titans firing Mike Vrabel Hiring Brian Callahan, who are very different personality wise, the Brian Callahan not thing not working out and them just being the Wolverine meme where they're looking at a picture of Mike Vrabel while laying in bed and saying, okay, what is the closest thing we can do in this cycle to just get Mike Vrabel again? And the answer was probably hiring Robert Sala. Like, it just. It's so transparent and shameless, but not in a way that I'm judging. Like I completely understand why they did this.
- [41:14]
Sponsor Voice 2
This.
- [41:14]
Robert Mays
It's just the deep irony and sadness that comes along with that entire sequence of events. If you are a Titans fan or somebody who's having to make the decision in that building is just a tough one.
- [41:26]
Jordan Rodriguez
I'm judging a little because that's very diplomatic of you to not be doing so. But I am because you had him. The one that got away. You had him. Girl. What are you doing? What? I just. I can't. It's so good. It's too good.
- [41:48]
Robert Mays
So what's the case? Against what? What is the example of how this might not work out if you're the Titans?
- [41:53]
Jordan Rodriguez
Oh, honestly, I think, I mean you could look at a lot of Titans history here. It's funny because you say how this could work if it's the Titans. And the best example is Mike Frable. The way that this might not work is all the factors that led to Mike Frable no longer being there. This is not a one to one comp. But in terms of ownership and team infrastructure and power struggles seeming to happen by the month and all of these different variables that made it impossible for him to continue being the head coach there and then go off to greener pastures, that that is a. Unfortunately a great comp for how this could really go terribly wrong. But you look at any of these other defensive coaches that we said that we talked about, Eberfleet being one of them. Now, Eber Fluss, I would say going into year, his final year, because that was the year where he did have the quarterback but had no idea what to do with the quarterback. So if we're talking Eber Fluss, I would specifically comp that last year of his head coaching tenure in Chicago, because he got the quarterback, the number one overall pick in Kayla Williams, they had no idea what to do with him. And infrastructurally as a staff like you have to have that plan very much in place. Reports are saying that Robert Saleh does have a plan that they buy into that they believe in as an ownership group. So that's, that's good. But that would be a very extrapolated piece of the Eberfluss experience that I think directly applies to how this could go wrong in Tennessee.
- [43:21]
Robert Mays
And by the way, the variable thing applies to not just the type of coach they're seeking out because of what he was in Tennessee. The variable model in New England is exactly what they're trying to do in Tennessee. You drafted a quarterback in the top three, you bring in this defensive minded head coach, but you still maximize that version of the roster. It's literally what they're trying to accomplish with Cam Ward. And so I think that one makes sense. I went back to again, like defensive retreads and this isn't a perfect one to one. But like Rex Ryan, like Rex Ryan was a really good defensive coach with the Jets. Those defenses were consistently excellent. They obviously had a lot more team success than the Robert Solid jets did. But he gets another chance with the Bills. It doesn't really work out. And so I feel like there's some parallels there, even though if it's not a perfect one for one. But yeah, I, they're just hoping that he's Mike Rabel. And I think everything you said about the organizational dysfunction is right because in this cycle specifically, I think you, when you were looking at the different opportunities like the Titans and the, and the Falcons, I think were probably tiered in a similar place for a lot of people looking at these jobs. But the strengths and weaknesses to both of them were about as different as they could be. With the Falcons, you didn't have a clear path to a quarterback that you felt good, good about. With the Titans you did, but in Atlanta, I think you feel a little bit better. And I think Boni is somebody that's well respected and I think that I don't think he would scare anybody off these jobs. But when you look at the dysfunction from the ownership level consistently in Tennessee over and over and over again, that's something that I think raises some alarm bells. And so even with a Cam Ward, a job like the Falcons job may be a little bit more attractive because of some of the organizational stability. Like there's no perfect formula to these things. Like, it's all like a, a, it's a cosmic gumbo of like weird shit and figuring out which of these jobs is good and bad. But in Tennessee specifically, I think exactly what you said is the biggest thing that would scare people off. Let's take one more quick break and then come back and chat through the jobs that are still open Life insurance.
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- [49:37]
Robert Mays
All right, so this was your idea. You wanted to talk about what these jobs are and. No, but I. Here's what I want to ask. Here's why I'm asking this. You want to talk about what these jobs are and what they are not. And as somebody who has done the content thing for a very long time, I usually know that when you have an idea like that, it's because one of the jobs made you think about it that way. So what was the job like? What was the reason that you wanted to do this? Framing. Which. Which team?
- [50:04]
Jordan Rodriguez
It's super mean. So it's the Cardinals, because I'M sitting here thinking, like, is anyone thinking about the Cardinals right now?
- [50:15]
Robert Mays
It's very true. It's very true.
- [50:18]
Jordan Rodriguez
All of these manipulations are happening where teams are using other teams for leverage on each other, and they're not even trying to do that with the Cardinals. I'm like, what? It's like the meme of the group of people sort of in doodle form standing in the middle of the room and then the guy standing in the corner and he's thinking, they don't know. And what he's thinking is, they don't know. I'm still in the mix for a job. I still have a head coaching vacancy. Like, hello. So yes, I was thinking about the Cardinals and what specifically what they are not. And that is a clear and present danger to anyone in terms of the competition for some of these coaching jobs.
- [51:03]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I, I answered it a little bit differently, but I think that's. That to me, is what it is. What it is is a job that aren't. Not many people are excited about. Like, that's what the Cardinals job is. It's a roster that has holes. You talk about ownership questions. We've touched on this a couple of different times over the last couple weeks. And I feel comfortable talking about it because multiple coaches that have been offered the jobs the last two times that had vacancies, I've just heard that they weren't excited about it. People remove their name from. From consideration or they wouldn't even interview because of just some of the fears about who's in charge of that organization. And then the last part, you don't have any clear path to a quarterback either. So at least in Tennessee you have Cam Ward it we here you don't even have that. And so there just aren't that many positive qualities to the job. And so for me, what is it? It's a job that aren't. That a lot of people aren't really excited to get it or are chasing that hard right now.
- [52:01]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah, I like that. One of the things that they were that people had talked about being one of the positives with Jonathan Gannon was that he genuinely wanted the job and they were having trouble, you know, finding that. And so his enthusiasm, you know, it does make you wonder. I know the record wasn't there and the defense fell off a cliff and all of that, but it does make you wonder. It's like. Like you had someone in your building who really wanted to be there, who really wanted that job, who wanted to make it right, who wanted to work with ownership and we'll see if they can find that.
- [52:35]
Robert Mays
Again for me, what it isn't, I don't think it's like a Baron roster talent wise.
- [52:41]
Jordan Rodriguez
Right.
- [52:42]
Robert Mays
And I think there is something to be sold there. Like I think there are some pieces that you can build around. The defensive injuries at the end of the season are brutal. Like Nolan and Garrett Williams getting hurt in the way that they did and now the timelines for those guys, that's as bad as it can possibly get on top of all the injuries you dealt with last year. But I think there are like six to eight guys on both sides of the ball combined. We're just like, okay, we can build with this. And so I don't think this is hopeless. So as you look at. So for each of these we're gonna do what is it, what isn't it? And then who should get it based on those considerations. So in your mind, who should get the Cardinals job?
- [53:18]
Jordan Rodriguez
Who do I hate? No, I'm just kidding. Like I said, I was thinking about this late last night. It was super mean. I like out of nowhere type of person for this job. I like either an offensive minded guy or a CEO type of coach. It's crazy. But I like Davis Webb. I know he's going to be in the mix for this Bills job or it sounds like he is. At least I like somebody who you go in and there are no expectations that you win immediately. But the most important thing is, is that you look for the quarterback. A Nate Shieldhouse, for example, you look for the quarterback, you try to identify the quarterback and that figuring out that piece. To me, you mentioned it with this roster, so much falls into place upon simply figuring out that piece. Matching quarterback to system I think is the wrong way to go. They tried that with Cliff. We saw some highs, we saw a lot of lows in that regard. I think coming in, getting a guy just who knows the position, who knows quarterback with no expectations that you're going to be competitive from the jump because you are still developing yourself as a coach. If I'm looking at this, the defensive version of this, I think Anthony Campanelli has.
- [54:41]
Robert Mays
That's my answer.
- [54:42]
Jordan Rodriguez
He has the personality, he has sort of the win, the room he has, the community would love him like this. This would be maximizing the defensive side of the roster.
- [54:52]
Robert Mays
Campanile is my answer. I just see it. I just like based on what they were in Jacksonville last year, even some of the pieces they have defensively, I can see it. And obviously the offense becomes the question it's going to be the case with every defensive minded coach. Especially when, like you said, you want to create a hospitable environment for whoever the quarterback is, as that person comes along in the next couple years, but just based on, like, energy, like where the Jags were, like, they hired him in Jacksonvill because they wanted somebody that was a little younger, that was hungry and that I think could kind of get the ear of what was still like a very young team. And he did that. And I think schematically he just did so much good stuff. And so that's one where I'm like, you know what I got? I see that one. Like, I could absolutely see Anthony Campanile being the right choice for the Cardinals in this moment.
- [55:38]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah, I could see it. He's got. The community would love him. You know, I feel like get him out doing some charity events. Get him to like some of those Italian restaurants in Phoenix.
- [55:49]
Robert Mays
You know, if you've never heard Anthony Campanile talk, I strongly suggest you go seek out an interview with Anthony Campanile. Cause you'll learn a lot. All right, let's hit the next one here and kind of draft off of what this morning has been like.
- [56:02]
Jordan Rodriguez
I love this. I love this. Like, we're building this on the fly and I love it. Thank you for indulging me here. This is fun.
- [56:09]
Robert Mays
This is fun. This is a great way to do it rather than just like, here's the news, let's talk about it. Okay. The Buffalo Bills.
- [56:15]
Jordan Rodriguez
Oh, God.
- [56:17]
Robert Mays
What is the Buffalo Bills job?
- [56:20]
Jordan Rodriguez
Oh, my God. Okay. It's twofold. My answer for what it is and what it is not is the same. Just, you know, efficiency. It is not as good of a job as it looked at the surface when. Before Terry Pula got up on the podium or the lectern and started talking today about the reasons why he moved on from Sean McDermott and the infrastructure in place. Josh Allen makes this look so gorgeous. Like, he makes this look like the dream. Right? This is the one where we all joked like, John Harbaugh, are you sure that contract is signed? Right. Because this job just came open at the 11th hour. That's the one that. That inspired all those comments. But this, I don't think is as good of a job as it looks like on paper. So it is. And it is not the same thing to me. Not as shiny as it looks.
- [57:13]
Robert Mays
I landed in the exact same spot. What is it? It's a chance to coach an MVP quarterback and one of the best players of his generation. That does not happen very often. What isn't it? It's not perfect. Like, you, you. I was so surprised when I read that Jeff House story this morning and ranking the openings based on him talking to people around the league. And the Bills were a resounding number one. Like, I. I was just surprised by that. Even before this press conference happens. And then you see the press conference happen, and I think you're just reminded that sometimes these organizations, like, they find stability for reasons that have nothing to do with ownership or the people in charge. And, you know, I think there was a lot of that discussion with what happened with the Colts, you know, like, what happened with the Colts with Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck and, like, how much stability you find because of quarterbacks like that. And so, so to watch that happen this morning, compare how much confidence you have in the Bills organization after that hour ends to how much confidence you have in the Ravens organization after Steve Bishati's press conference ends.
- [58:15]
Jordan Rodriguez
Both strange in their own right, but also, like, strange with function, right? Like strange with clarity. Straight, like strange with personality. Not strange with, what the hell is this? And it's night and day to me, because these two jobs, I think, on paper look very similar, especially with the quarterbacks. They're not at all, in my opinion.
- [58:40]
Robert Mays
The Ravens are a model of stability. For 20 years, they've had the same structure and the same people in charge and the same processes and the same general level of success over multiple coaches, multiple quarterbacks, multiple general managers. I think it's easy to forget, and I think, like, it's part. I really wanted to spend some time talking about it on Monday to give Sean McDermott credit. It's easy to forget what the Bills were before Sean McDermott got there. And I think that he deserves some credit and Josh Allen deserves some credit for making sure that's the case, and Brandon Bean does as well. But to watch what it looked like up there between those two guys and to, like, throw your coaching staff under the bus, and I, I'm sure that, Listen, I don't think Brandon Bean is absolved of any sort of blame here for what he might have said behind closed doors about the Keon Coleman thing, but the moment that Terry Pegula cuts him off there and does that in public, you're just cutting his knees out from under him. Like, it's, it's just a crazy thing to do in that setting as the owner of an NFL team. I can't even believe it happened.
- [59:40]
Jordan Rodriguez
Stop helping, bro.
- [59:42]
Robert Mays
Yeah, just, just, just, just sit there Just sit there and be the rich guy for like an hour.
- [59:48]
Jordan Rodriguez
Can you do that? Can you just sit there and be a freaking billionaire? Like, oh my God. Yeah. No, it's crazy. Crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. And it did. Like I, I, I like that you mentioned that about Brandon Bean because no, he's not absolved in this. And the roster building has been extremely suspicious over the last couple of seasons especially. Even though I think he also deserves credit for helping with Sean to get this team into the level of responsibility that it is certainly not absolved. But when you see behind closed doors, dynamics out in public in front of your face, it is shocking. Like I like to your point, I felt like we were watching, you know, like SNL or something. Like I hope SNL parodies it. In fact, like it was, it was wild to me.
- [60:38]
Robert Mays
Who should get the Bills job?
- [60:40]
Jordan Rodriguez
Brian Davel Cause, cause it's not going to last. It's an overhang gm. It's a trigger happy owner. The next coach has to at least get to the next round of the playoffs, if not become a Super bowl bonafide super bowl contender or make an appearance in the super bowl probably in the next two years. Because you've now made your bed and set the expectations so high by moving on from Sean McDermott that the very least you could do is go get the guy that everyone's screaming at you about to make the quarterback happy or whatever the case may be behind the scenes who works well with Brandon Bean, who, who clearly has a lot of say in the matter and, and it's not going to work out. I mean, I, I don't want to sound doom and gloom or morbid, but this is the situation that has been foisted upon the organization. When Terry Pegula made a vibes based decision to move on from stability, instead of addressing maybe deeper problem, you can keep continuity and still address real problems within an organization. That's what the Colts are doing right now. It doesn't mean that those guys are going to be safe long term, but they're keeping continuity and having really honest questions and conversations about where the problems are. You can do that and keep stability for an organization. Now they've reset the timeline, they've truncated everything and put everyone in a pressure cooker because if you don't do better than what you just did in, in, in a season and two seasons, everybody's gone. And so that's where it's like, Brian Dable will get a shot at this, I think, think and should get a shot at this and let's see what happens. He's the one who knows the organization and knows exactly what he's getting into.
- [62:20]
Robert Mays
I don't think that line of thinking is wrong. It just scares me. Like, I just don't like, based on how it went New York and just based on some of the things on offense they had to untangle and like, go away from that he wanted to do and how it benefited them. Like, I just think about the roadblocks those offenses ran into at the end of the day ball era, even with Josh Allen, and just like how much they remade them themselves over the last couple years. But I don't think you're wrong in the sense that, like starting over with someone that's like a new coach or somebody who is. It's going to need a little bit of Runway. You almost can't do that. And I think, and I think that speaks to why it might have been a mistake to fire Sean McDermott is like, because you put yourself in this situation and do it without firing the gm. Right? It's like it's, they, they've painted themselves into a corner where I feel like you limit the amount of candidates you can really consider for a job like this. And I don't think that's ever the sort of corner you want to be painted into, but I think it seems to be where the Bills are. All right, the Baltimore Ravens.
- [63:13]
Jordan Rodriguez
Who do you want to hire for it?
- [63:14]
Robert Mays
Oh, I, I, I don't know.
- [63:16]
Jordan Rodriguez
I think you made a really good point that you almost can't go with an unprofessional because you're giving this guy no Runway to develop. If you go with an unproven.
- [63:25]
Robert Mays
This is one where I was just like, I don't know. It's too early. Like, I, I think table makes sense in some ways, but also, I don't know if that's what I would want to do. This is one where there have been a couple in this cycle where I'm like, I just don't know. And the, and the Bills right now are just one where, like, I don't know what the right answer is.
- [63:41]
Jordan Rodriguez
You know, I'm going to sound very condescending saying this and forgive me to the audience for that, but NFL owners, just, just a piece of advice. If you don't, if you're not convicted beyond you're marrying your wife or husband, that you have the next person who is definitively going to lead you into the next era of your team smoothly, don't make the abrupt decision. Don't do it. I don't care who's crying in front of you, just don't do it.
- [64:09]
Robert Mays
The idea that what happened that day is the reason that he did it is just like. And admitting that in public is just. Is crazy. All right. The Baltimore Ravens. What is the Ravens job?
- [64:18]
Jordan Rodriguez
The best job in the NFL. The best opening we've seen in in many, many, many, many, many, many moons in the NFL. It is what it is. What nobody knew the Rams job would be. That's what the Ravens job is. Yeah.
- [64:34]
Robert Mays
I the line about the Bills. It's a chance to coach an MVP quarterback and one of the best players of his generation in a stable and consistent organizational environment. It's. It's, it's all, it's. It's everything you could want. It's everything good about the Bill's job plus everything good about the building. Like it's and I'm curious for you what, what isn't it to you? Because I didn't have an answer to this. I maybe I just am not looking under enough rocks. I feel like it is exactly what you said.
- [65:00]
Jordan Rodriguez
I think it is not for everyone because I think that's a good answer. Are incredibly and rightfully so. It's the most competitive sport in the world. It's the biggest stage there are rightfully, I think hubristic people who think they're going to be right for this job who are going to throw everything they've got at trying to get this job. I think you have to know very specifically whoever that coach is that's coming in, I hope it's a young candidate that they develop with the organization who can give them an edge, especially offensively with Lamar early on to get them over the hump. But to understand that this is a long term operation here and this is a long term stay for, for the next head coach. I think you have to understand what you're not in a better in a maybe a more holistic and fundamental way because to go into that organization is to you, you're going to have a say in things. But to go into that organization the way that it's set up right now as any coach, I don't care how experienced you are is to completely let go of any, any other organizational experience you previously had. You have to let go and just be a sponge and become of the organization because that is how they've collaborated in the past. So you have to. It's not for everyone because I think there's. There's going to be two. There's A couple people maybe with too much ego to rightfully take that job.
- [66:20]
Robert Mays
Who should get it?
- [66:21]
Jordan Rodriguez
I think Nate Shieldhouse should get that job.
- [66:24]
Robert Mays
Wow.
- [66:24]
Jordan Rodriguez
I think that's. Or. Or like an unpro. Another unproven. You know, Grant Yudinsky is very, very unproven. But like, that's the category of people that been in the league for like.
- [66:34]
Robert Mays
Three more years than Nate's been in the league.
- [66:36]
Jordan Rodriguez
But Nate's been coaching. He played. You know, he gets the quarterback. That's the thing. It is. I think that. And it's not just one person or another person or whoever. It's. To me, it's like, this is the job. This is the job. Everyone thinks it says it's Pittsburgh, whatever. I think there's. There's valid points to that. This is the job to find, to correctly identify the next wunderkind offensive person to correctly do it. They might incorrectly do it. Who knows? We might be incorrectly doing it. Who knows? But this is the. This is the platform. This is the Runway. This is the moment right now to. To do that. So I'm looking forward to that. I hope it is one of those types of unproven offensive guys.
- [67:20]
Robert Mays
I get that. I get the appeal of that. I just kept coming back to Jesse mentor for this job and maybe it's just because the connection to the organization.
- [67:27]
Jordan Rodriguez
You know, I just, I said this.
- [67:28]
Robert Mays
About the Bill's job, and I think you can kind of say this about the Ravens job too. You can't completely ignore the offensive coaches, but you have more leeway because of who the quarterback is. And so I think that hiring a defensive coach then get the most on that side of the ball consistently and making sure you have an offensive coordinator that clears the bar that gives you enough the same way that Todd Monken did. I think that sort of model works in a situation where you have an MVP caliber quarterback. And so I, again, there was just one where I could see him doing the job. I could see him getting the job. I could see their defense being really good right away because he got the job job. So that's one I've just kept coming back to. But Shoe House is a fascinating option and we will see how that unravel on how that kind of unfolds here over the next couple weeks to go.
- [68:09]
Jordan Rodriguez
Shield House. So sorry. So.
- [68:12]
Robert Mays
So let's do. Let's do these next couple very quickly because I want to talk about McDaniel before we get out of here.
- [68:17]
Jordan Rodriguez
Okay.
- [68:17]
Robert Mays
The Steelers job, what is it and what isn't it?
- [68:20]
Jordan Rodriguez
The second Best job opening in football right now. What isn't it? Clarity at quarterback and, and also understanding organizational dynamics. Who's going to really be making the decision on the quarterback? We know Mike Tomlin had a significant say, most of the control over that roster. How is that balance going to work out moving forward? I think this would not be a bad fit for again an up and coming coach. I like the idea of Chris Shula here. How cool would it be if a Rooney hired a Shula? It's just there's some, there's some poetry to it as well. I like the idea of an unproven coach offensively here too. This is another one of those jobs less shiny than the Ravens job, but still very, very shiny, especially for a coach who they are going to invest in for the long term.
- [69:09]
Robert Mays
It's a job that reflects stability, job security, history. What isn't it? It's not a turnkey job. Yes, there's remodeling that needs to happen in that building and nothing crazy. But I think the roster will turn over in the next couple years. It will get young and you still need a quarterback. And like you said, I'm so curious what Omar Khan is without Mike Tomlin. And that's not to say that he was hamstring by him or the other way around. I'm just curious if the organization operates differently with a different sort of mindset from your head coach and different expectations. And I do think there's a possibility that it will and I think a difference in how they operate could ultimately benefit them. So you said Chris Shula. Who do you think should get the Steelers job?
- [69:54]
Jordan Rodriguez
I do think this would be a good job for Chris Shula. I think that it, to me it does set the Runway for a Tomlin esque sort of journey. Right. I mentioned it at the top of this. A coach who has coached every single position on the defensive side. Also really underrated about Mike Tomlin at the time. A coach with a vast coaching network already himself because of who he, he worked in a building with. There's very similar parallels there because Chris Shula may not be an offensive guy, but he knows plenty of them because he's been Sean McVay's bestie for so many years. So this is, to me, it just, it makes a lot of sense to me.
- [70:36]
Robert Mays
I kept coming back to Brian Flores. I love it. I would just love to see him there. I would love to see what he could do there. And again, you hope that because he now has, you know, know has touched that that Tree a little bit. Does he have somebody that he might have in mind to come with him to do that job? Like it. That's. That's one I just kept coming back to, and I think I'll keep coming back to it. Let's. Let's skip the Browns and the Raiders. Well, plenty of time to talk about those jobs as they get filled. And again, this is solely for time. This is not. Because I don't think those are worthwhile conversations. I think they are worthwhile conversations. But I wanted to talk to you about McDaniel just before you got out of here. You wrote about it yesterday. Like, it. I. This is incredible. For the content, like, for the. It could not be better for the content. Like, whatever argument you want a point for. Like the idea that, well, Justin Herbert has never had the right offensive coaches and that's why Justin Herbert can't succeed, which I don't think is true, but I think that there are some people who are going to point that out. Well, now he has Mike McDaniel. Well, Mike McDaniel. Why couldn't he get over the hump in Miami? Well, it was two. Like, two. It was the problem. Well, now he has Justin Herman Herbert. So just like the amount of arguments this will fulfill and just the entire connection with the whole. To a Herbert thing on the Internet that's happened over the last two or three years, like, for the content, this is incredible. But I also think for the Chargers, this is really fun. Walk me through your feelings about Mike McDaniel being the offensive coordinator in Los Angeles.
- [71:56]
Jordan Rodriguez
This was a move for the posters, you know, and the Chargers are great. No. So for me, there's some really cool poetry about who Mike McDaniel, like, really is. And I know you know this well, Robert, too, and the stuff that he's really made of, the substance behind all the quips and quirks and. And viral videos and all of those things. There's something really cool to me about football's quintessential tough guy in Jim Harbaugh, identifying those traits in Mike McDaniel and. And yes, 100%, the top of this trade identification process is probably, can he maximize my quarterback? Can we get a little bit more of these, like, Shanahan principles and some of the new stuff that Mike McDaniel's running into my building. Can I apply this to my offensive line, my tight ends group, my run game? Very excited to see that, by the way. And certainly can we maximize the potential of the quarterback? And that's obviously number one for that organization. But number two for me is this is a person who, I think his best coaching is still ahead of him in Mike McDaniel. And I'm really looking forward to this journey for him and him showing, I think, the broader public and certainly NFL circles who, no matter what he does, will sort of scoff and sneer at him because he talks a certain way, looks a certain way, has a certain stature, thinks a certain way, is very, very confident in himself despite all those things that they think he should not be because of. Of it is someone who's going to show, I think, an opportunity to show with this, like, historically badass coach in Jim Harbaugh, what substance is actually there behind all of those things. And so I'm very excited about that.
- [73:46]
Robert Mays
I'm so glad you said that. And I think that the perfect coaches in the nf, you have to be confident to be a coach in the NFL. You have to have confidence in yourself, because I think you have to present that confidence to players. But at the same time, I think one of the things that's always shined through to me about Mike and the way that he approaches the job is that it's always in service of the players and if you are confident, but the job is always in service of the players and getting them to play as well as possible. And it's about you taking a back seat in that way. That's a good blend and that's what he has always had. And so I'm with you in that I think his best days as a coach are ahead of him. I think it's so telling. He took this job over the others. Like going to take. Going to play with this quarterback and coach with this quarterback as a springboard to the next job. Makes total sense to me. The schematics of it are fascinating. Like, what is a Mike McDaniel offense with Justin Herbert look like? Because it's going to look a lot different than what a Mike McDaniel offense with Tua looked like. Just in terms of, like, where they would areas of the field they can access. It's just so, so different. And so I can't wait for it. And it's. There's an irony because Staley wanted one of the McVeigh guys at the beginning and he struck out on them. And then now they finally get that system and Shane Day, who is their quarterback's coach, coach coached with Mike in San Francisco. And so I, I think it will be smoother in some ways than it might seem. And I cannot wait to see what the Plan ultimately looks like with these two guys together and if it flames out, then they're going to be a lot of haters on the Internet who are celebrating. But I, I think it could be extremely fun.
- [75:18]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yeah, I, I think it's going to be a blend of some of the new funky stuff he did. Less of the ballsmanship and the handoffs and those types of things, but more of the funky stuff. The motions obviously are gonna be there, the formations pre snap and the different gap changes, but also like with people that combine for the size of like a small planet. And to do that, to bring like that Kyle Shanahan suffocation, monster ball to some of the speed and, and ability of the quarterback. Very, very special potential here. I'm very excited. Now. We, we don't know how it's going to go, but I, I'm an optimist and I tend to think it'll go well. Robert.
- [76:01]
Robert Mays
All right, we got a couple more things I want to hit, but I can do that on my own. I'm going to let you go because you have a lot of things to do today and you have a heart out. So you get out of here. Sincerely appreciate the time. You got a million things going on. Please tell people where they can check out the work that you are doing at all times.
- [76:14]
Jordan Rodriguez
Yes, Find me@the athletic.com. find me on NFL Daily with the great Greg Rosenth. Find me all over the place. Probably bundled up because I am soft and I hate the cold. So here we go.
- [76:29]
Robert Mays
Are you going to the Super Bowl?
- [76:30]
Jordan Rodriguez
I will be there. I'm excited. Yeah, I'll see you there.
- [76:32]
Robert Mays
Yeah, I will see you there. I'll be there all week. Looking forward to it. All right. See you later, Jordan.
- [76:36]
Jordan Rodriguez
Thanks for having me, Robert. Bye.
- [76:39]
Robert Mays
All right. I'm going to keep rolling solo here, which is an uncomfortable place for me to be, but there are a couple more things I wanted to hit and Jordan had to get out of here. The other OC hire that I wanted to talk about, just because we haven't had a chance to address it anywhere else, is Drew Petson going to the Lions. And I know that there have been some people who are skeptical of this and the job that Petsing did when he was with the Cardinals. And I completely understand that. I think this makes a lot of sense based on who the Lions want to be offensively and who Petzing has been and has wanted to be on offense. They want to be a heavy personnel under center, run play action, throw the ball over the middle of the field team. And I think he is equipped to do that. That's what he wants to do. That's the offense he wants, wants to build. And so I think that there have been ups and downs with that group. They lost Clayton Adams, the run game struggled because of that. But you already have Hank Fraley in Detroit to kind of help that be a blend of, you know, those two guys kind of building the run game together in the same way that he could with Clayton Adams in Arizona. So I understand that there are people who are a little bit worried about this or a little bit skeptical of this. I do think that it makes sense if you're the Lions. And I think that there is absolutely a chance with the amount of talent that team has on offense, passing could look a lot smarter in Detroit than he ended up looking in Arizona. And let, let's just do the Raiders and the Browns with that exercise that we were doing before because, you know, we might as well. So let's run through both of those before we get out of here. The Browns, what is the Browns job? I've talked about this a little bit. It's a tough job. There is not going to be a ton of talent on that team this year. We know that they are still deeply in a rebuild. They are still tens of millions of dollars over the cap. That is something they're going to be digging out of over the next year, next two years. And you don't have a reasonable path to a quarterback this year in a draft where there just aren't a lot of them. It seems like it's going to be some combination of Shador and a moderately priced veteran that they could bring in. I don't think that's attractive to anybody. At the same time, what isn't this job, I don't think it's some coaching death sentence either. When I look at this, and I've made this comparison before, it reminds me a little bit of where the Texans were in like 21, 22. Oddly enough, considering the Desean Watson connection, you look at the amount of draft capital that Houston team had after the Watson trade, this is a Browns team that has two first round picks, is going to be making a lot of picks and did last year. And so you're trying to build like a cache of young talent in the exact same way those Texans teams were. The 2022 Texans were very, very bad in the same way that I anticipate the 2026 Browns being very, very bad. But in 2027, you potentially set yourself up to go get a quarterback and maybe turn this thing around quicker than people might expect. And so I think that is the best case scenario is that you look at yourself, where the Texans were, and it can feel like just an absolute quagmire based on how the last couple of seasons have gone. But at the end of the day, you are a couple hits early in the draft, which the Browns are going to have more bites at the apple this year and a functional young quarterback away from being a competitive team pretty quickly. I still think the Browns have pieces on defense and they're going to have some financial flexibility in 27 to kind of help remake the areas of that roster, notably the offensive line, that have the furthest to go in terms of who should get this job. This is another one where I'm like, the options are so different. Like Todd Monken and Jim Schwartz could not be more different than Grant Yudinsky and Nate Shieldhouse. And so if I'm a young coach, there's part of me that thinks, oh man, like, if this is my only chance, do I really want to tie it to an opportunity where, you know, you don't really have a shot in year one based on where things are are, or is this your best chance to get one of these jobs? And if you can weather that first year, do you put yourself in a spot by 2027 and year two, where this can actually be a pretty decent landing spot. And so if they landed on one of the young guys, like if Grant Yudinsky got this job, I think it would kind of seem a little bit crazy. But I also think this is an organization that is willing to take that sort of swing. They think about things a little bit differently, and I think that's gotten them in trouble at times in terms of how they thought about player acquisition and certain moves. But I don't think Andrew Barry is afraid to do something a little bit surprising and kind of shoot and swing for the fence when it comes to this. Like, can you find the next guy who can be that young, offensive centric, just ceiling raiser on that side of the ball consistently for when you find that quarterback. And so that is going to be a fun thing to watch. And whether they do end up landing on one of those really young candidates. And with the Raiders, what is it? It's a blank slate with an opportunity to take a quarterback with the number one pick and reset the entire franchise. And I think that is appealing. Like, this is a team, I think in 2027, they have $200 million in cap space. They just don't have many guys that weren't a part of last year's draft that you're tying yourself to for the long term and so you're really starting over. If you were the Raiders coach and that can be a good thing, but it could also be a bad thing because what isn't this job job, It's a place where we've seen that success is not easy. They've consistently stumbled in so many different ways over the years. Think about the Brady factor. You're paired with the GM coming off a 3 and 14 season who's priority on somewhat shaky ground. So there I think there are some benefits because you are starting over here. I think there are some drawbacks based on the Raiders history and just tying yourself to a group that's already struggled out of the gate. The person that I can see here, like who deserves this job, who should get this job, it's very early. He may not even want to coach. We've mentioned him a couple times on this show. Somebody like Sean McDermott I think could make sense here. Somebody that has overseen a rebuild that has been at this stage of an organization before. That is somebody I'd absolutely consider if I were the Raiders because we've seen what he can do with the early stages of a team that really just kind of needs to change the narrative and the direction around them. All right, that was deeply uncomfortable. Appreciate you guys sticking around with me through that. But we will be back tomorrow with the championship weekend preview. Deep dives on both of those games and you know, some of this other stuff comes in, whether it's the Eagles offensive coordinator, the Bucks offensive coordinator. Obviously there are updates around those things, but we're just going to wait until those hires are made before we start really digging into them rather than just wildly speculating about what all the different options can be. And so we will come back to that at some point in the next week or so. Don't worry on that for front. For now though, that is all we've got. Sincerely appreciate you guys listening. We'll talk to you very soon.
- [83:22]
Jordan Rodriguez
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- [84:11]
Robert Mays
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