The most interesting teams of the offseason, part 2: Chiefs, Vikings and Colts

Summary

The Athletic Football Show: The Most Interesting Teams of the Offseason, Part 2

Episode Theme:
Host Robert Mays, joined by team beat writers, breaks down why the Kansas City Chiefs, Minnesota Vikings, and Indianapolis Colts are among the most fascinating teams entering the 2026 NFL offseason. The conversation dives into each franchise’s unique crossroads, with context about key roster moves, major questions, and the philosophies guiding their rebuilds or reloads.

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[01:42] Kansas City Chiefs – Offseason at a Crossroads

Guest: Jesse Newell (Chiefs beat reporter)
Main Topic: The Chiefs face unfamiliar territory after a 6-11 season—their lowest point in years—and hold a rare top-10 pick, prompting questions about personnel changes, roster construction, and Andy Reid’s offensive philosophy.

Key Discussion Points

• Chiefs’ Bottoming Out (6-11 Record):
  • Mays: “The 6 and 11 record, which was a shock... but a top 10 pick? That’s the highlight of the offseason” (03:20).
  • Newell: The last time the Chiefs were drafting this high, they traded up for Patrick Mahomes in 2017. This season felt fluky, not a total collapse.
• Lessons from 2025:
  • Newell: The offense lacked explosiveness, especially from the running game. Mahomes led the team in 20+ yard runs, which Newell called "not a good thing" (04:50).
  • The defense stopped producing in clutch situations; 35 points worse on late-game, high-leverage downs than the year before.
• Offensive Structure vs. Personnel:
  • Discussion around whether changes should come in scheme or personnel; Andy Reid prefers tweaks over overhauls (07:32).
    • Newell: "This is an Andy Reid offense and this is Andy Reid kind of going out on... the last few years here on his terms. So I don't think there's going to be monumental changes."
    • Mays: “I think there are also structural… concerns for maybe where this team should go from here… The soft firing of Matt Nagy gives you a chance to potentially pivot... Instead, they go back to Eric Bienemy.” (06:54)
• Salary Cap & Resource Allocation:
  • Recent restructure of Mahomes ($40M saved), cutting of Mike Danna ($8.9M), but still over the cap (10:14).
    • Possible moves: Releasing Jawaan Taylor (saves $20M), restructuring others (Creed Humphrey, George Karlaftis, Chris Jones), or trading Trent McDuffie to unlock $13M+.
    • Newell: “If they are not going to (extend McDuffie), now's the time to trade him... a late first round pick would do wonders for them.” (13:02)

Building the Roster

• Approach to Running Back & Draft Value:
  • Running back is a glaring need, but Chiefs likely to avoid high-end spending (e.g., Breece Hall) and target strong mid-tier signings (e.g., Travis Etienne-type payoff).
    • Newell: “I think Brett Veach... what he loves to do in the off-season, he loves to cover his base needs... It’s a really wise way to bring about value.” (18:09)
• Premium Positions in the Draft:
  • Top needs: edge rusher, offensive tackle, big-bodied receiver—not running back or safety at No. 9.
    • Mays: “It was hard for me to see them taking... a top 10 pick, first time since 2017, and taking a safety, taking a running back. They never get this crack at a starting right tackle or top receiver.”
• Receiver Profile & Rashee Rice Uncertainty:
  • Chiefs have prioritized “short, fast” receivers (22:18), need a perimeter presence (Jauan Jennings archetype); Rashee Rice’s off-field questions complicate things.
    • Newell: “All I can tell you is the Chiefs love him on the field… but can he be trusted off of it?”

Notable Quotes

• Newell: “The Chiefs had 11 on blackjack and were seeing a six, and then the dealer gets to 21… It’s like, man, your strategy’s wrong. Well, kind of? But things just didn’t turn out for them.” (08:54)
• Mays: “I am looking forward to the parade they are going to throw if they sign Travis Etienne in free agency.” (26:05)

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[29:41] Minnesota Vikings – Building Amidst Uncertainty

Guest: Alec Lewis (Vikings beat reporter)
Main Topic: The Vikings, with a new GM and a roster at war with itself (aging stars vs. hopeful youth movement), remain $43M over the cap and face existential questions at quarterback.

Key Discussion Points

• Cap Situation & Levers:
  • $43M over but several restructures possible (Jefferson, Grenard, Van Ginkel, Murphy). Could extend RT Brian O’Neill, cut aging players. Unlike 2025, have 9 projected draft picks (4 in top 100).
    • Lewis: “There are going to be some interesting conversations... but you’re trying to straddle this quarterback development world with this veteran aging roster win-now coach world.” (31:15)
• JJ McCarthy Dilemma:
  • After disappointing rookie year (with injury), team cannot rely solely on him but are not ready to move on.
    • Mays: “The idea that you would give up on JJ McCarthy after last year is crazy… but I don’t think you can walk into this year and say, well, we’re just going to hope that J.J. figures it out.” (33:41)
    • Lewis: “Fans are passionate about wanting JJ to have as much time as possible… there were flashes.” (34:01)
• QB Room Solution Spectrum:
  • Expect a "tepid" solution—bring in a veteran for competition, not a true replacement.
    • Possible targets: Geno Smith (if released), Kirk Cousins (if released), or a trade for Mac Jones, Kyler Murray (with caveats).
  • Lewis: “If you were to replace JJ now, you’d need a solution for multiple seasons… I’m not sure if one exists.” (36:29)

Roster-Building Dynamics Post-Quasi

• Kevin O’Connell and Brian Flores expected to have more influence; Rob Brzezinski remains key on contracts.
  • Expect more short-term aggressive moves to support Justin Jefferson’s prime and offset previous years’ lack of playoff wins.

Key Needs

• S, CB depth, IOL, RB (if Aaron Jones is cut), resolve with TE T.J. Hockenson (has a $21M cap hit), and more
• Lewis: “Beyond the quarterback, there is a ton to sort through… the most meaningful time for the direction of this organization.” (47:18)

Notable Quotes

• Mays: “Doing the half-measure solution at quarterback, you potentially solve nothing.” (37:37)
• Lewis: “The idea of Geno airing it out 25 yards down the field to Justin Jefferson is easy to imagine… If you get that level of QB play... there is a path to being a double-digit win team.” (41:39)

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[49:13] Indianapolis Colts – Banking on Continuity and Daniel Jones

Guest: James Boyd (Colts beat reporter)
Main Topic: After a second-half collapse in 2025, the Colts—despite fan frustration—stick with Chris Ballard and Shane Steichen. The Daniel Jones and Anthony Richardson situation defines their immediate future.

Key Discussion Points

• Why Bring Ballard & Steichen Back?
  • Ownership focused on the 8-2 start, not the 7-game skid—believe in Daniel Jones, trust Steichen’s play calling.
    • Boyd: “They viewed those first 10 games... more than the last now going on 10 years of (Ballard’s) entire tenure.” (50:04)
    • Mays: “You keep Shane and fire Chris, that also feels counterproductive—now you’re going to turn over the front office when you’re trying to win now? ...This year your feet are against the fire.” (51:06)
• Quarterback Future:
  • Daniel Jones likely returns as QB1 (“short and long term answer”—Boyd quoting Ballard, 53:18)
  • Anthony Richardson likely to be traded after injury and uncertainty about his vision
    • Boyd: “This was your last exit ramp to not go all in [on Daniel Jones]... now even though he’s coming off a broken leg and a torn Achilles, he probably has more leverage than the Colts do.” (53:47)
• Receiver Situation:
  • Pittman has $29M cap hit—could be tagged, restructured, or cut. Alec Pierce needs to be either re-signed or tagged (rising market for outside FAs).
    • Boyd: “If they do not bring Pittman back, receiver becomes a big need, even if you keep Alec Pierce.” (57:25)
• Offensive Line Structure:
  • Jalen Travis likely slides in at RT to replace Braden Smith. Colts uniquely built—a mix of mid-round picks, all developed in-house.
    • Mays: “There is no O-line in the league composed of that sort of draft picks, and they’re all in-house.”
    • Boyd: “You can count on Quentin Nelson… anytime he’s leading the room, they appreciate the leadership.”
• Defensive Overhaul Needed:
  • Edge group (other than rookie Laatuatu) all entering FA; only 9 combined sacks from main trio last year.
  • D-line and safety are major needs; must decide what to do if Mooney Ward (Charvarius) retires after more concussion scares.
    • Boyd: “Absolutely, the defensive line, they had so many games last year… they just could not get home and finish the game.” (63:13)
    • Boyd: “I would lean toward [Ward] playing in 2026, but… how much of a contingency plan do you have built in?” (63:52)
  • Safety Nick Cross is a free agent; unlikely to be paid due to market glut at the position.

Miscellaneous & Notable Quotes

• Boydon Anthony Richardson: “He could not see fully... Do you know how hard it is to play football if you can’t see fully?” (68:44)
• Boyd: “The Justin Wally injury has irreparably changed the next five years of Colts football in a way I don’t think we appreciate.” (65:29)

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Key Timestamps

• [01:42] Chiefs Offseason, Jesse Newell interview starts
• [09:54] Discussion on possible scheme change or just personnel tweaks
• [13:00] Cap moves and McDuffie contract debate
• [21:20] Free agent RB & WR archetypes for Chiefs
• [29:41] Vikings Offseason, Alec Lewis interview begins
• [33:41] JJ McCarthy rebuild vs. vet solution
• [41:39] Potential veteran QBs for the Vikings
• [49:13] Colts Offseason, James Boyd interview begins
• [53:03] Daniel Jones, Richardson likely out
• [57:25] Pittman/Pierce, WR needs discussion
• [63:13] D-line, Mooney Ward, and secondary needs

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Memorable Moments

• Jesse Newell’s “blackjack” analogy for the Chiefs’ unlucky season and sticking with Andy Reid’s system
• Robert Mays on the abnormality of the Chiefs’ top-10 pick: “It’d be hard for me to see them taking a running back... they never get the crack at the starting right tackle or receiver.”
• Alec Lewis: “Trying to straddle this quarterback development world with this veteran aging roster win-now coach world.”
• James Boyd: The “two one zero” method (two playoff appearances, one win, zero division titles) summing up Ballard’s résumé.

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Overall Tone & Takeaway

The episode strikes a mix of analytical and conversational, with humor and deep NFL knowledge. Each team is at its own distinct pivot point:

• The Chiefs must maximize a rare draft opportunity and address a sudden dip without losing their identity
• The Vikings walk a tightrope between developing a young QB and placating a veteran locker room
• The Colts are living with the consequences of going “all in” on Daniel Jones, with a defense and skill group in flux

For anyone following these franchises, this episode offers a front-row seat to the big offseason questions shaping their next chapter.

Transcript

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[Robert Mays]

Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I'm Robert Mays. Our most interesting teams of the off season series rolls on today. We've got three teams with a lot to weigh as we get into the offseason. Two teams with questions at quarterback, the Indianapolis Colts and the Minnesota Vikings. We chatted with James Boyd and Al Lewis, our writers for those teams respectively. Today. Also sat down for the first time with our Chiefs writer here at the Athletic, Jesse Newell. About pretty different feeling off season for the Kansas City Chiefs. Picking in the top 10. A lot of different things for them to be mulling over at this time of year that they are not typically talking or thinking about. So very excited to dig into these three teams. Really enjoyed these conversations. Let's get to it right now. Joining us now, our first conversation from here on, I guess it's Radio Row. It's still Radio Row. Here at the NFL Combine is our Chiefs writer at the Athletic, Jesse Newell. Your Athletic Football show debut, I believe.

[Jesse Newell]

Little nervous, little shaky, but we'll get there. Yes. Yeah, this is great I'm.

[Robert Mays]

I'm gonna shepherd you just fine. We'll be great here. Typically, the Chiefs would not be involved in a conversation like this, but we've done this. I call him Barnwell. Every single time I mention his name. Beller. How many times have we done this? Three or four times. Right?

[Derek]

This is my four combine with you.

[Jesse Newell]

We've done it every year.

[Robert Mays]

And the Chiefs have never been one of these teams because how could the Chiefs be possibly be one of the most interesting teams of the offseason? They either were in the super bowl or just won the Super Bowl. Seemingly every single year, a little bit of a different story right now.

[Jesse Newell]

A lot going on. Yeah. The 6 and 11 record, which was a shock obviously to start with, But a top 10 pick? Yeah, I mean, they really worked on that down the end of the stretch of the season to get to that top 10 pick. Had a lot of work to do and got there. But yeah, the first one, I mean, this is. This is the highlight of the offseason or what you always say is like their first top 10 pick since Patrick Mahomes in 2017.

[Robert Mays]

And even that they had to trade up together.

[Jesse Newell]

They had to trade up, like, to get to this point. In any other draft, to get to the ninth pick, they would have to trade like four first round picks. So this is a different opportunity, but like you said, different potential for the Chiefs. And they have to kind of figure out their trajectory from here moving forward. The 611 season, we can talk about a little bit fluky, a little bit. Maybe not quite as bad as it seems on the surface, but with the moves they've made, the free agents they've signed recently and what they've got to do with their cap, there's a lot to do this offseason.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah. I don't think that the final record is indicative of how bad things actually were. And at the same time, you look at a team like the Eagles, for example, when you are one of these mainstay teams, it does actually benefit you to bottom out one year because you know you're going to be relevant every single year. And so getting a top 10 pick, you might as well just have it be as bad as possible. The year where the Chiefs fired Doug Peterson was one of those years. They get Devontae Smith because of that. Like having one of these overall and like the trajectory of the franchise isn't necessarily a bad thing. At the same time, I want to just talk about last season for like two minutes.

[Jesse Newell]

Sure.

[Robert Mays]

What do you think in what was a down year and a disappointing year. Are the lessons that the Chiefs should take from the 2025 season and what are the lessons you think they will take from the 2025 season?

[Jesse Newell]

Well, I'm probably more aligned with them than most people because I think Andy Reid, we know he's going to throw the football. We know that's part of what they do. And you have Patrick Mahomes, you should throw the football, that sort of thing. But, but the lack of explosives we saw, I know we've talked a lot or we've heard, had a lot of discussion about the explosive nature of teams and how you can get these big chunk plays. The Chiefs didn't have that last year. They had a little bit early on. They tried to throw the ball deep but running back especially that, you know they had one 120 plus yard run from a running back all year. Mahomes had two. So like the quarterback is leading you in that. That is not a good thing. They can't not address this anymore. I think I got a little unlucky last year when it came to the draft. It looked like the fourth round pick was going to be that. And then if you look at the board that what went off on the board on the fourth round before their pick, it was just running back running Caleb Sampson, I mean just all these, that's etn all these guys they potentially could have taken and they sort of struck out. So they can't strike out this year. If they clear some free agency room, you would think that they're going to go get a starting running back just to kind of clear their base needs. It's kind of the biggest thing that they need I would think in free agency. But that's the number one thing defensively. Again, a little bit of a flukey thing, but I think for them, pass rusher, you know, they could not get home at opportune times. And I looked this up on true media was kind of a stat I couldn't believe when I looked at it. But the Chiefs, when you looked at just scenarios, it's a small scenario, but fourth quarter, third downs, one score games, they were 35 points worse on defense in those scenarios than they were the year before. They were. I think it was second the NFL in 2024 in that situation, 32nd in the NFL in 2025. So it's clutch situations, it's those minor details I talk about. But so many times they were so close to getting a sack and couldn't quite get there. So George Carloftis Was hurt part of the year. Chris Jones had a good year, not a great year. But they need more help on the defensive line. I think if you get a little bit more pressure, some of these things go away.

[Robert Mays]

I think on defense I'm fine with this is these are our base principles. We just need to be a little bit better personnel wise, the offense. I think that you can look at this one of two ways and we've kind of taken both views on it. As we've talked about this team over the course of the season, what you're saying there is we need better personnel at certain positions. We need a more explosive running back. I think big bodied receiver is another thing like on the perimeter that this

[Jesse Newell]

team could use, which we could talk about.

[Robert Mays]

But I think there are also structural, if not concerns then considerations for maybe where this team should go from here. I think this offseason the soft firing of Matt Nagy gives you a chance to potentially pivot to maybe an offensive coordinator from a slightly different background that can incorporate some newer ideas into this offense. Instead they go back and get Eric Biennami.

[Jesse Newell]

I just say offensive coordinator because it's an Andy Reid offense.

[James Boyd]

Yes.

[Robert Mays]

And so that's the question is like how much of this do you think they'll try to sol just changing out certain elements of the personnel and how much do you think in the building they believe that maybe it's time for a little bit of self reflection for the ideas that permeate this offense?

[Jesse Newell]

It's a really good question. It's the question of the off season. You know, I know there's been people out there and Mitchell Schwartz, you know, former Chiefs guy has talked with you guys about this whole thing and he's been very vocal about that as well. I don't think in the building they believe it's huge, monumental changes. I think they think it's tweaks. And then like I said talking about some of the close game stuff, I mean they went 1 in 10 in close games which we know it's not going to repeat again. What's crazy to me is if you look at the numbers I did this. Anthony Reinhardt runs stat Butler online. He has some great data visualizations and I pulled up for his Chiefs review of the season and it's crazy if you look at it like the orange is the top when it comes to like 80th percentile and higher for offensive EPA and before they lost both tackles in week 13, like it's just orange, orange, orange, orange on the offense. So it's crazy because it becomes this sort of revisionist history that, like, this offense was not good all year, when in fact, I mean, Patrick Williams was pulling some rabbits out of his hat. We knew he scrambled more early on to kind of take advantage of not having receivers and doing what he could. But, like, their offense was like, it was second in EPA after week 13 in the NFL, like, only behind the Colts, who obviously had their same sort of collapse as well. So I think for Andy Reid and this dykes confidence in yourself, he sort of said, I'm sticking with what I do and what I'm good at. Now, is that what they should do? I mean, listen, there's always ideas out there. Like, we know the rams are going 13 personnel heavy and they're using tight ends in a creative way, and we know the 49ers succeed in the way that they do. But, like, this is an Andy Reid offense and this is Andy Reid kind of going out on, you know, the last few years here on his term. So I don't think there's going to be monumental changes. I don't think that Andy Reid has indicated that there's going to be, that they need fresh ideas, they need new things to kind of study up on. But at the end of the day, like, again, this is. It's such a weird season because I just feel like I keep using this example, but I feel like the Chiefs last year, they had 11 on blackjack and we're seeing a six and then the dealer gets to 21 and then they had 11 and the dealer showed five and they double down and the dealer hits 20 and it's like, man, your strategy is wrong. What are you doing? It's like, well, kind of. But like things just sort of didn't turn out for them and injuries played a big part in that. So I think they're sticking to what they have. I think there's a discussion to be had about more new ideas, especially in the run game. I think the run game could use a refresh and them getting more explosiveness there. But I don't think this is an overhaul. I don't think it's Andy Reid changing what he does because again, he's comfortable, his own skin. What he's done has worked for a long, long time.

[Robert Mays]

That is my understanding of it as well. Talking to people even over the last 24 hours or so about. Because they have some newer faces on the coaching staff that aren't just Eric B. Enemy. I think there's a bit of turnovers goes. I think that, you know, My understanding is that it will be a lot of the same stuff and that most of this will be driven by changes in personnel. And then the questions come. The question becomes what do those changes in personnel look like?

[Jesse Newell]

Yes.

[Robert Mays]

So so far we've had already a couple cap moves that the Chiefs have made even before the combine is kicked off. They restructured Mahomes deal that saves them about $40 million against the cap. They cut my Dana yesterday. That saved them I think like 7ish or so million.

[Jesse Newell]

I think it was 8.9.

[Robert Mays]

So right around there and then that still puts them at $3 million over the cap. And so if they're going to use free agency as a tool to add a couple of these guys, they're still going to need to free up some more money. Where do you think some of that money can come from to maybe get them at like 15, $20 million number that they might need to add a couple guys?

[Jesse Newell]

Well, I think the first one right off the bat is Joan Taylor. They can save $20 million with him and they have Jaylen Moore as they signed a year ago at this time for two year contract. So he was serviceable when he was healthy in there. And I just think Juwan Taylor can be an elite player, but with the penalties or the history he's had and the ability for them to get out from under that, that's an obvious move to start with. They've got some restructured candidates now. Where they, which direction they go with those guys is sort of interesting. Like Creed Humphrey is one, George Carloftis is one. Potentially you can move that money up and then Chris Jones is another. But he's a player at, you know, starting to be in the 30s where you're like okay, do you want to space this money out or is this a guy where you want to leave yourself some flexibility for next year if he has a down year to say we can potentially move on from you and take the salary cut, take the salary in that particular one and save some of that dead money charge. So kind of fascinating with those guys. And then one we have to talk about. This would not be an issue if they didn't re sign so many guys lately like Creed Humphrey and Trey Smith and Nick bolton. But Trent McDuffie, the Trent McDuffie situation is a big one that looms over this season because if they are not going to sign him to a long term contract, and if they do, they can obviously save some money there. But if they're not going to, now's the time to Trade him and his value should be pretty high to teams out there. And there's other teams out there kind of like redoing the Tyree Kill trade from a few years back where a team will give that guy a max contract and be happy to sign him, happy to have him. And it could fit better under another team's salary cap. So you could save, you know, $13 million there potentially if you trade him. And how do you think that results?

[Robert Mays]

Do you think that they have the appetite to give him that sort of long term deal or do you think in their minds it might be more attractive to get something for him?

[Jesse Newell]

It's a fascinating one because if there's anybody that's. The Chiefs are stars and scrubs. Like they are top of the market in center, at guard, at quarterback, at kicker, at, you know, middle linebacker, almost at Chris Jones. Like they pay their players and then they fill the rest of the roster with draft picks. The one position they historically have not given extensions to though is cornerback. And they have an added advantage of Steve Spagnolo and the Dave Merritt, their cornerbacks coach. They seem to find these guys. Their top free agent right now going into this offseason is Jalen Wats, who a seventh round pick they developed through their system and now you know, he's an outside corner who could play for anybody.

[Robert Mays]

How many times has that happened where you have these guys drafted in the fourth round or later by these teams or a guy like Javarius Ward who was undrafted I believe. Right?

[Jesse Newell]

Yeah.

[Robert Mays]

And so now you have all of these guys that were day three or later picks making upwards of $15 million or more a year in free agency. It's happened. This will be the third time in the last like five years this has happened. Right.

[Jesse Newell]

And Legerious sneeze is another one. They traded Ward and him. Yeah. And they don't. It almost feels like if you have the ability at a position to turn straw into gold, you just go back to spags. I totally understand straw to gold, buddy. Like it's time. And not to mention like Steve is really good too at like finding the Chris Roland Wallace's of the world who are like these undrafted free agents and then all of a sudden they're in the rotation and they're playing slot for you, playing a little bit of safety and like they're fitting in and they're not. It's not a huge drop off. So I mean you don't want to put too much on Spags played obviously but like he has seems to have this ability along With Dave Merritt, who develops corners. Great. Probably a future defensive coordinator at some point. Dave Merritt, the Chiefs cornerbacks coach, defensive backs coach, he's really well respected. But they seem to have a factory there to be doing that. So they love. I mean, Trent McDuffie is 10 out of 10 on the field, 10 out of 10 off the field. Like, the only thing he doesn't have is the ideal size and ball skills. But like everything else on field, off field, what you want from a leader, amazing. So, you know, I was even talking with guys last night, like The Rams at 29, they have a couple first round draft picks. They have some cap space. Like if you're the Rams, you offer the Chiefs 29 for McDuffie. I mean, that seems to make sense to me for both sides. And then the Chiefs can address some of these needs that they have in the offseason because they have limited free agent dollars. But they're going to have to address their roster in some way. A late first round pick would do wonders for them in that particular regard.

[Robert Mays]

And if you look at it, they probably can figure out like a workable secondary without him based on the guys currently have on the roster. Like, no. Williams flashed a little bit last year as an outside corner. They still have Christian Faul. They've got a couple options in the slot. You mentioned Chris William Wallace when they were a little bit smaller. He was in there last year. But Jamari Conner has played in there a ton.

[Jesse Newell]

Absolutely.

[Robert Mays]

That makes safety a need rather than corner. And so there's a lot of moving parts. But you can imagine a world without him. And I think a couple of years ago it kind of would have been crazy to think that, like, he seemed like an ascending. He still was a great player, Trent McDuffie, but it seemed like he was like an ascending all Pro, unbelievably valuable. There's no way we're ever letting him leave the building sort of player. And I think that has shifted a little bit.

[Jesse Newell]

Yes, absolutely. And he's. Listen, the Chiefs, ideally, what he plays a slot corner because he's a great blitzer and you know, it allows him to put him.

[Robert Mays]

But they don't have him do that anymore.

[Jesse Newell]

They wanted ideally to have. They signed Christian Fulton last offseason, like, put him outside, put Jalen Watson outside, let Trent McDuffie be that chess piece in the middle and just weaponize him in that way. And then Christian Fulton was hurt, never got caught up with the playbook. And then like, it just never materialized. You know what I mean? So that's, that's the tough part about this. But like I said, I think the good thing for another team like the Rams or whoever is, it's, it's. Sometimes you're trading for a player and you're like, I wonder what they know about him. That I don't know, like, what's going on off the field, what. And that, that's just not it with Trent McDuffie. Like, it's obvious. It's their cap space and it's the, their potential to be able to turn these guys around and not always have to have first round draft picks, you know, produced for them in the secondary. So I think it makes a lot of sense for the Chiefs. Will they do it or not? I don't know. Because they, they give extensions to so many of their own guys. Maybe they make a way to make it work with Trent McDuffie because of all that he means for them. But it is a complicated one. And at the athletic we had written about the, the Ravens, the Bengals and the Chiefs, like, what can you do to restart re jump start, get yourself back into NFL contention, Super bowl contention. And that was the one I said for the Chiefs. Like, it was very tough for them after they lost to the Bengals in the AFC championship game a few years back to trade Tyreek Hill. But it felt like kind of a moment where you could do it and feel like this was sort of the change to something else. And it would be kind of funny because the Tyreek Hill trade helped bring back Trent McDuffie. Now the Trent McDuffie trade could potentially help bring back somebody else that starts them on their next run.

[Robert Mays]

So let's say hypothetically, they cut Jalen, they cut Joan Taylor. Let's say they move on from Trent McDuffie. We're looking at 25 to 30 ish million dollars in cap space at that point. You mentioned running back. Do you feel like, because I think everybody wants to drop like a breeze hall onto this team or like a Kenneth Walker onto this team to really give them as much juice as possible at that position. Do you think there is a world where they get that aggressive and when it comes to the top of the running back market in free agency, or do you think that the ultimately, do you think ultimately the direction they go is more modest than that?

[Jesse Newell]

I think probably more modest than that. And the good thing for them is that the running back depth of free agency is just.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, it's crazy. It's really good.

[Jesse Newell]

I mean, Travis Etn for them, like he would be a God, in Kansas City right now, it could be Breeze Hall.

[Robert Mays]

You know, all that matters is not Kareem Hunt. That's. That's all that matters. For some fan bases, you would need a guy like a Breeze hall to get people excited.

[Jesse Newell]

This guy would get a key to

[Robert Mays]

the city, he would get a key to this.

[Jesse Newell]

Like, this guy is the best running back they've seen in, you know. And listen, I mean, I want to caveat. Like Isaiah Pacheco, the injuries just caught up. Yeah, he had the two fine first years, you know what I mean? And you can win Super Bowls. Like the Chiefs, we go down their starting running back at all these Super Bowls they've won. Like, who's the, who's the best one? I mean, at the same point, this

[Robert Mays]

regime is chasing a running back unnecessarily,

[Jesse Newell]

which is also, we have to mention that when we talk about the first round of the Chiefs, like there is history of them taking a running back in the first round and it completely blowing up on them. Like one of the worst moves I think they would admit that they've made. So you can't ignore that history when we're talking about the Jeremiah Love thing. But knowing their needs and what they have, I think Brett Veets, the Chief cm, what he loves to do in the offseason, he loves to base, cover his needs so he doesn't go into the draft saying, I'm painted in a corner, I have to take this position. I think it's a really wise, good way to bring about value. The Chiefs have also, since Clyde or Delaire valued premium positions early. And we understand the math on this because I just told you, like, what is Travis ETN going to cost you if you get him in free agency? You know, what is that cost going to be compared to, like, if you draft Jeremiah Love and immediately his four year contract is $32 million guaranteed. Like, why not sign ETN to that and then get yourself a free first round pick who potentially can bring surplus value at edge, rusher, at tackle, at receiver, whatever the case may be. So I think it makes sense for the Chiefs somewhere in the ETN aisle where it would be good for them. It would be a huge upgrade. Fans would be excited. And it's not still probably not shopping at the Breeze hall, top of the market, designer fashion, potential mall that needed and that would still be an upgrade for them and would still bring about explosiveness, which is what they need from that run.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, I think that the running back economics, you laid them out perfectly. It's like there is real opportunity cost for taking your running back in the top 10. And even if we think that Jeremiah Love is a fantastic prospect, we've never seen him play football in the NFL. So giving a guy like a Travis Etienne who maybe has a lower ceiling, but there is absolutely some more certainty there because we know what he can be in the league. I think that's a trade off that you might be willing to make because it gives you other opportunities and pathways. With that ninth overall pick you mentioned, this team still needs a pass rusher. Like there are a bunch of needs at premium positions or enough needs at premium positions where filling the running back and free agency and then using the draft have a little bit more flexibility. I think is the right mindset.

[Jesse Newell]

Real quick. A year ago like to the day when we talked about each of this day, it was so interesting because we were talking about left tackle. How are they going to fix left tackle? They never get a top pick. How are they going to fix left tackle? And he said, I brought up with Andy Reid, chief coach, he's like, I know exactly how to fix this suck for a year, Get a top five pick, get a left tackle. Like they've never had this opportunity. So anyway they get Josh Simmons and you know when healthy went in he was good. But like this is the sort of opportunity the Chiefs never get. And so I just, I. It was hard for me, be hard for me to see them taking, Getting a top 10 pick first time in since 2017 and taking a safety, taking a running back. It'd be like they never get the crack at the starting right tackle for the next five years or the receiver that is the next, whoever you know that's the top of the market. Instead of trading up in the second round because you see something you think in or she writes that other teams don't see. So they've played this well against since Clyde Ridge Lair. I'd expect them to do it again because this is the type of edge rusher, offensive tackle, wide receiver, they never get to scout and then take without trading up and using multiple first round picks. So I would look for them to take in one of those positions because they understand the value of surplus value, especially with the team that takes is at the end of the first round every single year. So we could talk through some of these guys but I would expect those three positions most likely and if they can secure that for the long term future then that's going to help them out, you know, for here for years

[Robert Mays]

to come in terms of free Agent money. I think running back does make sense. And the other spot that, you know, we've talked about a bunch is just like a big bodied perimeter receiver on this team that they have not had in a long time. Because even if Rashee Rice is a bigger receiver, that's not how he's used, right? Like he's an inside guy, he's a space player, and he's been very good and productive in that role when he's been asked to do it. But they've really missed somebody that it's third and seven. We're playing against a team that plays a decent amount of man coverage and plays it well. Is there somebody we can go to? And it's funny because the guy I kept coming back to when we were discussing kind of just the hypothetical archetype for who could fill something like that was always Juwan Jennings. I was like, they need like a Juwan Jennings type receiver within their offense. Juwan Jennings is a free agent. They could just get Juwan Jennings if

[Jesse Newell]

they wanted to go take the Joanne Jennings.

[Robert Mays]

But that archetype of player, do you think that's a fair. Do you think that thought is fair? That like that is a type of guy within this offense that could maybe bridge the gap of. Even if we're not going to change a lot schematically, this is going to allow us to kind of overcome a weakness that's crept in over the last couple years.

[Jesse Newell]

So a couple years ago I did a story about the Chiefs type at receiver and you're right, the type for them at receiver is short, fast.

[Robert Mays]

You listen to the show, you understand how it drives Derek insane every single

[Jesse Newell]

year, but it is like playing the video game on hard mode. Like you can vary this, you know, like you can have one guy in the red zone who can come down with a contested catch. You know, historically, Patrick Williams has not been a contested catch to throw. He did more last year. Instead. One of his kind of goals was to trust his guys. And so you've seen that more man coverage was a huge issue last year, them beating man coverage. So absolutely you could see that. But as far as like base level needs go, the question becomes draft or free agency. And if you look at the Chiefs like Rasheed Rice just had more off field stuff pop up in the off season.

[Robert Mays]

You know, what do you think happens with that?

[Jesse Newell]

All I can tell you is the Chiefs love him on the field. I mean, they love his skill set, yards per out run. All these metrics show. And he's so good after the catch. He's, they always talk about how he's a running back after the catch and they love his skill set there. But it. To bring him back on another contract, you would really have to have a conversation with the owner and say I'm vouching for this guy. And right now that's a tough conversation to have in the last year of his deal. So I don't know. I know the Chiefs love him on the field, but can he be trusted off of it? I think that's a legitimate question and if they do, that'll be a press conference that, you know, some questions will be asked for sure.

[Robert Mays]

Other areas of need when you look at free agency, Brian Cook is a free agent and so safety seems to be a spot where they would need another body heading into this year. It's a, it's a year. And you mentioned running back. A couple of the needs for the Chiefs free agency are the spots where there's a lot of, there are a lot of options, right? Like there's a lot of. What's the word I'm looking for? There's a lot of supply at safety in free agency this year. And so that's a spot where I could see them signing a guy to maybe like a mid level contract to find a starter. Any other like needs positionally that are at front of mind for you with this team?

[Jesse Newell]

Again, Again, I'm, I'm kind of combining the draft with it. But when you talk defensive line, they've got to get out of their rut of like re signing 34 year old dudes on the defensive interior. And when you talk Brian Cook, it's a really good point you made because I was even looking up true media yesterday and like when he's on the field and when he's off the field, how teams had like 1.1 yards per rush more when he was off the field. There was the Cowboys game, if you remember, he went out with an injury and then like five plays later the Cowboys hit on a huge run and it's like this is not a coincidence. Brian Cook's big skill down this particular year especially was he got guys on the ground.

[Robert Mays]

So he was taking, he's a fantastic tackler.

[Jesse Newell]

He was making up for a bunch of the deficiencies the Chiefs had on their defensive line. And you know Chris Jones is great crushing the passer. He's not great the run game, but whoever has been next to him, it has not been good. And I know Omar Norman a lot. He's kind of been a pass rusher. Guy, he got hurt last year so he'll be back. But they could really use just probably in the draft some young, they never seem to dart throw this but they need a younger guy who can be a run stopper to get out of the Derek Naughty, Mike Pennell, endless cycle of guys that just haven't been working out as a veteran. So I could see them especially like a later round draft pick or even mid level draft pick doing that or if they find somebody free agency potentially. But I think we hit on them, you know, running back, receiver. The question to me in the draft is like if one of these tackles, if you think they're going to still be a tackle, falls to them. If they just like we talked about last year with every it's like they never get the swing at the top tackle in the draft. What if you could set and secure your offensive line for Patrick Mahomes for like three to four years with Simmons, Suamata Humphrey, Trey Smith and then Mauingo or whoever, you know, Fanow or whatever on the right side. So I think that would be an enticing thing. But I think their base needs, you know, if they're going to get them mostly covered. I'd look defensive line, I would look running back and then receiver at some point, but probably not as far away as some people would think based off a 6 and 11 record but still so much to do with not as much cap space as previous years.

[Robert Mays]

A different sort of feel to this Chiefs offseason and I am looking forward to the parade that they are going to throw when they sign Travis ETN and free agency. Jesse Newell, great to get you on the show, my friend. Appreciate the time. We'll talk to you very soon.

[Jesse Newell]

Hey, I appreciate it.

[Robert Mays]

All right, before we get to Alec, let's take our first quick break.

[Derek]

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[Robert Mays]

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[Alec Lewis]

I'm great, Robert. Good to be here. I've looked forward to this week for a couple weeks now. I can't wait to go through it and see where things are with this organization that happens to be in a very, very interesting spot.

[Robert Mays]

I don't even know where to start this conversation.

[Alec Lewis]

Wherever you want to start, I think.

[Robert Mays]

Let's just start with the practical realities of what the next month or two might look like for the Vikings. This is probably the most boring place to start, but it's where my notes begin and why not? Okay, The Vikings are $43 million over the cap as things currently stand. They need a quarterback. They have other needs. How do they. How do the. How does the money get handled in your mind to give them a little bit of flexibility heading into the year?

[Alec Lewis]

Yeah, I think the cap and them being 43 million over the cap, on paper, it doesn't look great, but if you look at the amount of levers they have to pull to create space and create room, there are a bunch of them. You could restructure Justin Jefferson's contract, Jonathan Grenard's contract, Andrew Van Ginkel, Byron Murphy will fry. Some of these guys you'd want to do that. Some of these guys you wouldn't. But there are a lot of levers from just the restructure component of it. And then there are going to be some interesting conversations on players like Aaron Jones, Javon Hargrave, potentially Jonathan Allen, Ryan Kelly as potential cuffs. And then there's also extension conversations for a guy like right tackle Brian o'. Neill. So a lot of ways for them to get above the cap. But you're right. You got to talk about the quarterback need. You've got to talk about if you were to cut Aaron Jones, then you need a running back.

[Robert Mays]

That's the problem with this, is that you, oh, you can do all of these things and you can move on from a bunch of these guys. But then if you're the Vikings, it kind of puts you back in the exact same position you were in last spring, and then now you have no money to go out and find other players at those positions.

[Alec Lewis]

It's it's exactly right. Fortunately different than last year when they had four picks in the draft, they have projected to be nine this year. So that is helpful. Four of them are supposed to be in the top 100. A critical component to add youth to a roster that's just getting older and older year by year. And like that's really what's There are a lot of things fascinating about this team but really one of the primary components that makes them so interesting is you're trying to really straddle like this quarterback development world with this veteran aging roster win now coaches that squeeze everything out of the roster world and doing that at the same time. You could spin it in one way and we did prior to last season as like you buoy the young quarterback at the highest level but you could also spin it the other way of that adds a lot of pressure to the quarterback and forces him to be ready at a certain time. And you never really know on the continuum development when that time is going to be.

[Robert Mays]

So that's part of my concern and my issue with the approach to the team build last year is that the needle that you were trying to thread became extremely small based on those two competing timelines. If you're going to be signing these guys who are on to a 32, 33 year old players, I mean the best case scenario is you have them through 2027 and you have to compete for 2027. But with the age of some of those guys, the Hargraves and the Allens, your hope would be your competitive in 2026 and that means the quarterback immediately has to get you in a place where you're competitive. That did not happen. And so now we're in a place where there's a huge quarterback question with this team. And just to be clear, and I've said this a bunch of different times, but I think still people are still missing it. The idea that you would give up on JJ McCarthy after last year is crazy. If you think about the quarterback landscape over the last several seasons and how many guys we've seen break out a little bit later, I don't think JJ McCarthy is some lost cause. Even if last year was disappointing. At the same time, if you were the Minnesota Vikings with the considerations of the age of the rest of the roster, but also everyone in that building, I don't think you can walk into this year and say, well we're just going to hope that J.J. figures it out. I would be shocked if that was the approach and I just don't Think it will be at that position.

[James Boyd]

Yeah.

[Alec Lewis]

I'm glad you clarify that and say it that way. Like I, you know, they're. Vikings fans are very passionate about wanting JJ to have as much time as possible as they should be. This is the first time they drafted a quarterback in the top 10. They drafted him 10th. He got hurt his first year. Missed it with a tormentiscus. Then he played in 10 games last year with a handful of injuries. But there were flashes like, I think that's the one.

[Robert Mays]

Literally the team that employed Sam Darnold. This is the team that did it.

[Alec Lewis]

Like, and, and, and I laugh all the time because you. There's so many different ways to look at it. One way that people often talk about is like, look what you look at Sam's arc. But Sam's arc happened six years in his career. The Vikings right now can't afford to wait four more years because you have a head coach in Kevin o' Connell who will be entering his fifth season without having won a playoff game underneath an ownership and an organization that wants to be in it every single year.

[Robert Mays]

So just fire the general manager, which even if there's a of lot lot that goes into that, I do think that it increases the urgency across the rest of the building.

[Alec Lewis]

No question. But your point is correct. Like, the Vikings have been very forward since the season ended. They want, at a bare minimum, competition for JJ McCarthy. It leads you into the question, though. Can you get the requisite quarterback insurance and build the quarterback room the way you want to build it? Unless you're guaranteeing that potential free agent or trade a certain amount of role or guaranteed position?

[Robert Mays]

And so that's how you look lost out on Daniel Jones last year.

[Alec Lewis]

Exactly. And Daniel Jones, like that situation. I'll just clear it as best as I can.

[James Boyd]

They.

[Alec Lewis]

Everybody in the building wanted to bring back Daniel Jones. They were willing to offer him as much, if not more than Indianapolis. They had him in the building and they believed that because he was exposed to their system and their culture, he would return. That was a little bit of a miscalculation because of the circumstance he chose in Indianapolis, but that him choosing Indianapolis really set the table for the lack of insurance they had at quarterback throughout the season. And so any repeat of that process would be a disastrous look and circumstance for a team that just can't afford it right now.

[Robert Mays]

So how aggressive do you think the quarterback solution ends up being? Because I think that you can do it on a bunch of different levels. You can bring in somebody that is a veteran that's like, okay, he's here for support and maybe a little bit of competition. Or you could bring in somebody that is clearly a tier above a guy like J.J. mcCarthy and it's like, no. Based on the investment we're putting in this guy, he's going to be the starter. So across that spectrum of possible solutions, where do you think the Vikings ultimately land with how they build out that room?

[Alec Lewis]

I would say the most likeliest out, the most likely outcome to me right now is the veteran who can add competition, who you would trust if they were thrust in the game. Because, like, if you look at this,

[Robert Mays]

that's a pretty tepid solution.

[Alec Lewis]

It is a tepid solution, no question. But I think part. Part of it is the. If you were to replace JJ McCarthy at this point, you would need a solution that you would feel great about for multiple seasons. And I'm not sure if one exists now. You can have the conversation about, like, a Kyler Murray. Could he, in this system with this infrastructure and this staff and these skill players, maximize who he is? Like, I think there's an argument to be made there. There's an argument to be made if you trade a second round pick for Mac Jones. He steps in. He's had success with Josh McDaniels in the past, who is close with Kevin, and there's some crossover in the system. Like, that is a valid and viable circumstance too. But you would really be declaring at that point the JJ McCarthy experiment, experience experiment, be totally put on the back burner. And that is a drastic declaration. Now, if there were like a CJ Stroud option out there, then you might be more inclined to go that path. It's just hard to believe that a team like that or a team like Cincinnati would move off the quarterbacks they have at the positions that they're. That they're in.

[Robert Mays]

This is so interesting because there's like, there's so many different considerations with this one. I think that by doing the half measure solution, you potentially solve nothing. Right. And I think that, to me feels like the most likely outcome if you're going to go the veteran route. But I also understand not wanting to show everyone you're giving up on JJ now, but I think that still might be the best approach for where this team is at this moment. It's hard to eat that, but at the same time, I still think it might be the right thing to do where, all right, Mac Jones is the starter. Whatever that says about J.J. doesn't really matter. We need to make sure that we're winning games like I still think in in my soul that might be the better approach.

[Alec Lewis]

No question. But then the argument to that is so you get a Mac Jones, you're winning games.

[Robert Mays]

But like to what end?

[Alec Lewis]

Yeah, to what end?

[Robert Mays]

And I understand that.

[Alec Lewis]

And the whole purpose and direction of going this path that they've gone down with JJ McCarthy has been to get to the place that they've never been able to get to. But I my spin in many ways has been regardless of what they do here, whether it's the tepid solution or the full time solution, what what should be the focus is let's maximize the defense to no end and let's maximize the run game to no end. And that that way the floor is where it is regardless of the circumstance. I don't know again how far that ultimately gets you, but I think some of their decisions thus far have shown you that that is probably part of the path that they're going to take regardless.

[Robert Mays]

Just a couple things, a couple notes about the quarterback stuff. We talked about this two weeks ago when we were still doing shows. I had not thought a lot about the prices in the market and I was pretty wrong about them. I after talking to people in the league like you mentioned a day to pick for Mac Jones because of how cheap the contract is, it does seem like that's about where it would land. Like a day to pick and change for somebody like Mac Jones. And with Kyler, in talking to people about that, I didn't really realize how much of the 2027 deal became guaranteed like in the next couple weeks or so.

[Alec Lewis]

20 million.

[Robert Mays]

It's 20ish million. And so I think that in a vacuum would probably scare off enough teams where he would be releasing. The problem with that is because the market is so dry other than Kyler Murray, I think there's still a potential chance a team gives up a pick even if it's a late round pick because there's aren't many other options available. And so those were not the values we were discussing a couple of weeks ago. I have reset and level set on those and have a better understanding of them now. So I'd like to apologize about that.

[Alec Lewis]

I think too like you hear the names of like a Geno Smith and can you imagine him throwing the ball ball down the field in this offense? I mean it could.

[Robert Mays]

That was gonna be my next question for you. If it is the veteran option who is coming in to give competition what does that ultimately look like? Because I think the two names that would come to mind for me if Gino is released. I'd be curious to see what Gino could do within this offense. But also Kirk Cousins got released about 10 minutes before we started recording this. So those are the probably the two names that come to mind for me.

[Alec Lewis]

Yeah, I mean the Kirk Cousins one is a no brainer in a lot of respect. Like I don't know if you've gone back and watched the tape from his the last four games that he won with the Falcons or what have you, but it was. I mean it wasn't Kirk in what he was in 2023 before the Achilles, but it was viable. He was going through progressions. He was throwing the ball downfield. It seemed like he had such command of that offense. And his relationship is still Good with Kevin OConnell. He loved Minnesota, his family loves Minnesota. So depending on what the market is for him, I see that as viable for sure. The Gino one less certain for me. But to your point, the idea of him airing it out 25 yards down the field to jump all situations to Justin Jefferson is. Is easy to imagine a world where you could produce the way that Sam Darnold did in many ways in this offense. And if you get that level of quarterback play and the defense is where it is and the run games even more improved and the offensive line is healthy and better like there, there is a path to being a double digit win team and. And then you see from there. But yeah, the Kurt, if it's the more tepid strategy, Kirk Cousins, Geno Smith, that's where my mind goes for sure.

[Robert Mays]

The Geno thing is just compelling to me on so many different levels. One, I have to choose to believe that there is a version of Geno still out there that would look better than he did last year. You have to come to terms he was bad last year. He was really bad last year in a terrible circumstance. So there's a lot going on there. The other part of it is imagine the closing of the Sam Darnold Geno Smith circle if Geno went to Minnesota and played well next year for the Vikings.

[Alec Lewis]

Well, it's funny that you mentioned Geno. Like I went back and watched the table the last couple of weeks and there was a game against Chicago where Kevin Byard had two picks on Dagger that he just like stepping right in. Like why does he keep throwing this? Kevin Byard is right there. So it was.

[Robert Mays]

It was a bad year. Yeah, it was, but it was a terrible situation. And so you just. It's hard to like how much of it is that like, if you put him back into a different situation, does he play better? I have no idea.

[Alec Lewis]

Right.

[Robert Mays]

I have to choose to believe that there is still a version of Geno Smith left out there that can play better than he did last year.

[Alec Lewis]

You said this, but it would be a fascinating experiment of like, you pluck a guy from this place, you put him in this quarterback environment, now you put him in this one. What does it look like? I mean, that's definitely going, going to be interesting. And I've been, I haven't been surprised because the vikings still went 9 and 8 and the culture is still, still where it is. But, but talking to people in the league like this opportunity in this position is still a really coveted position from all of these guys. Like, to get in the Vikings organization with Kevin o', Connell, with Justin Jefferson is still a really valuable thing viewed by agents and teams in the league. It's more a question of how committed are they still to J.J. mcCarthy. That's what you get a lot of when you talk to people. And it's a little murky in that, just in where they are with that.

[Robert Mays]

We don't have to rehash the quasi stuff in terms of why it happened. The question I have for you is, as we sit on kind of the precipice of free agency in the draft here, how do you think the Vikings approach in roster building over the next two months will be different because Quezy isn't there? And now I assume Kevin OConnell is going to have a larger voice in like how some of this stuff is shaped.

[Alec Lewis]

Yeah, I imagine Kevin o' Connell and Brian Flores will have major personnel influence, but Rob Brzezinski, who is the interim right now, it's easy to like overlook who he is and what he's done

[Robert Mays]

there for like 30 years.

[Alec Lewis]

He's been with the Vikings since 1999 when I was two years old. He has negotiated as the primary negotiator for this team and managed the cap for 20 plus years. So regardless, he would be here having a key role in who they sign. I would say as far as their strategy and approach, especially because they haven't won a playoff game in four years like I would not. And because the roster is older and because Justin Jefferson is in the prime

[Robert Mays]

of his career and has been vocal about how shitty last year was.

[Alec Lewis]

Yeah, and he, he managed it as well as any superstar possibly could. But it was an agonizingly difficult situation for everybody and you could feel the stress, the tension coming out of training camp in. I remember being in Dublin and being in London week four and week five and it was, I mean it was tough. And so the fact they ended up nine and eight was kind of crazy in itself. But if they make decisions for 2026 and 2027 with short term perspective, it'll make more sense to me now than it did last year when they did. When they took a similar approach.

[Robert Mays]

We know the quarterback situation you talk about. If they move on from Aaron Jones, what does running back look like into your defensive line? What are the other areas of need in your mind for this team that maybe we're not thinking enough about?

[Alec Lewis]

Yeah, I mean, first and foremost, if Harrison Smith retires, then who is playing safety for a Brian Flores defense where the communication runs through that position? So you start there. They absolutely need cornerback depth. Byron Murphy Jr. And Isaiah Rogers have provided a certain floor on the outside, but to. To revamp that position with more explosiveness and athleticism is huge. And then TJ Hawkinson, I don't know if we talked about his cap number right now is $21 million. That is the highest cap number of all tight ends in the NFL Currently. His production has. That has not in recent years since he's come back from the acl, it has not matched that, that cap number. So where do the Vikings view him in his performance in his arc? If they negotiate a pay cut, how willing is he going to be to do that? So that's another big spot. There's just a lot of them. Interior defensive line. I mean Eric Wilson, what if he lose a free agency, then linebacker. It's all over the map. It's all over the board. And I expect to be very busy like it always seems to be in Minnesota.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, that's.

[James Boyd]

That.

[Robert Mays]

That's part of the problem here. Like we mentioned at the top, it's that you have the quarterback thing that's just looming over everything else. But then when you dig a layer or two deeper, you realize like, man, there's still a lot of considerations and needs on this team. And a lot of the considerations and needs on this team have happen to align with where they invested resources last year. And that's just a frustrating place to be.

[Alec Lewis]

And then we haven't even talked about like Christian Daras saw. In my opinion, it was one of the more underrated storylines the entire season. He comes back from his torn ACL and he plays a little bit. He pulls himself out of games. It's like, is he playing? If he's playing, how long is he playing and so you know, where is he entering? He's a massive, huge aspect of the offense, of the offensive line. Where is he? And then again, if you, if, if you're replacing Ryan Kelly, the center position for an offense that's as complex as the Vikings is is going to be massive. Yet you're dealing with the cap number that you're dealing with. So yeah, they're beyond the quarterback. There is a ton to sort through and I've told people besides the quarterback pursuit in 2024, since I've covered the team, this is definitely the most meaningful time I think for the direction of

[Robert Mays]

this organization and that is why they are one of the most interesting teams of the 2026 off season. Alec Lewis, always great to chat with you buddy. We will do it again very soon.

[Alec Lewis]

Thanks Robert. Appreciate you.

[Robert Mays]

All right, before we get to our conversation with our cults writer James Boyd, let's take our second quick break.

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[Robert Mays]

Joining us now, it is our Indianapolis Colts writer here at the Athletic, James Boyd. James, great to see you man.

[James Boyd]

I'm doing good man. Great to you as well and sleeping in my own bed. So I can't relate to everyone else. Everyone always asks me like, oh, where are you going at this? Where are you staying after this? And I'm like, I'm staying at home.

[Robert Mays]

So, yeah, that was always talking to Kiefer about that. It's like trying to balance being social because everyone is here with the idea that, like, your kids are still at home is a is a tough thing to do when it's happening in your hometown. Talk about the Colts. There's a bunch of different stuff to go through here. I want to look back before we look forward, because I've asked this question to a bunch of different people who have written about this team, have been around this team, and I've gotten a bunch of different answers. But why, in your mind, after the bottoming out in the back half of last year, do you think that Carly or, say, Gordon and the organization was willing to bring Chris Ballard and Shane Steichen back for another run at this thing?

[James Boyd]

That was the money question, Robert. That was the question all the fans were asking after the end of the game, at the end of season press conference and ultimately talking to Karla Irsay Gordon, it sounded like they viewed those first 10 games of the year when they were eight and two more than the last now going on 10 years of his entire tenure, because we were asking her, how do you weigh such a unique season where you were, in Ballard's words, the top four team in the NFL when you were eight and two versus, okay, well, you didn't win another game after that, largely due to injuries. But on top of that, your resume overall, like, have you earned the grace to get another chance? Like, if this was, for example, the 49ers, they've had injury history, they've had things happen, but they've also won. You haven't won anything. And so that to me was the hard, like needle of thread. But at the same time, Carla Ursay Gordon said, like, well, we believe this team is good. We believe Daniel Jones is a big part of that. And ultimately it sounded like they evaluated this season on the first 10 games versus again, the overall 10 years and the last seven games of the year.

[Robert Mays]

To me, it makes sense in this regard. If you look at like this head coaching cycle, it's bleak out there. Like, there are not that many guys in this cycle where you wouldn't have wanted to be in the cycle if you were the Colts. The idea that you could hire a head coach that was better than Shane Steichen in this cycle, I think would be misguided I don't. I don't think that would be available to you based on what Shane has done as a play call and what the offense has looked like. If you keep Shane and fire Chris, that also feels counterproductive in what becomes a shorter window. It's like, all right, so now you're going to completely turn over the front office when you're trying to win. Now, I think landing in a place where you say, listen, this year your feet are against the fire, like, this is. We need to win this season with those two guys together, and then we'll reevaluate it after 2026. That does make sense to me. Even if I assume some Colts fans are frustrated by the process.

[James Boyd]

Oh, some. I would say pretty much all of them are fed up just because of mediocrity. But, yeah, I think you laid it out pretty well there, Robert. Like, a lot of the angst is not towards Shane Steichen, even though a little bit of it is, hey, he's 2 and 9 against the Texans and the Jaguars during his tenure, which is something you can be critical about. But I think most fans are like, you know what?

[Jesse Newell]

What?

[James Boyd]

You haven't had your starting quarterback make it through an entire season, through your first three years here. We can understand that. But for Ballard, it's like, again, how much grace are we giving this guy who has not won? And I call it the two one zero method. Two playoff appearances, one playoff win, zero AFC south titles. And you look at this division, this is not the Chiefs division. When Patrick Mahomes. And then we're on top of the world. This is not with the, you know, dynastic patriots of old. Like, this division pretty much is open every year, and you're not able to win it. And so that's where a lot of the frustration lies. And ultimately, I was trying to explain this, you know, here in the city, and people are telling me to shut up. It's like, I know why you want them to leave, but here's why they won't leave. And I think that they view them kind of as a joint package, and they don't want to, like, disrupt that, quite frankly.

[Robert Mays]

What do we think happens at quarterback? Obviously, Daniel Jones is a free agent. There's huge questions around Anthony Richardson. When you think about the final plan with that room specifically, and what it's going to look like two months from now, what does the composition in your mind look like for the Colts?

[James Boyd]

Oh, that's a great question. Well, number one, I think Daniel Jones is your QB1 going into 20, 26. And that's basically been solidified, at least on the Colts. And talking to Chris Ballard at the end of the season, he was, I would say, more like pushy on him, not only being healthy enough to play, but being back here. He called Daniel Jones the team's short and long term answer, which raised my eyebrows up. Like, long term, like when you trade

[Robert Mays]

away two first round picks, you.

[James Boyd]

You.

[Robert Mays]

You box your. You box yourself into a certain position.

[James Boyd]

Exactly. But at the same time, that frustration again arises among the fan base. We were like, yo, like he's saying this now, but this was said through the trade. This was said through the moves. Like they hitched their wagon to this guy. And I remember riding at the time, Robert, like they were 8 and 3. They had an. Actually a really bad game in Pittsburgh. They made trade for Sauce Gardner. And I was thinking to myself, and I wrote it, this was your last exit ramp to not go all in, to still have an out for the Daniel Jones experience. And you went all in on this guy. And now even though he's coming off of a broken leg and a torn Achilles, he probably has more leverage in the negotiations for his new contract than the Colts do that, which is a crazy proposition. But then on top of that, I think he's QB1. And then what was interesting, Robert, is Chris Ballard has been Anthony Richardson's biggest champion here in Indianapolis even when things were going horrible. And at the end of the season, hey, does he have a future here? He says, well, we got to see what's going on with his eye. We'll see what all that brings. And I was like, this is your first chance to basically reaffirm that he's your guy and he'll be here as a future here. And you're singing a different tone than you had at the beginning of the season. So I think that Anthony quite honestly will probably, probably get traded. I honestly think that he might want to get traded at this point, get a fresh start. And they're even saying that they're pretty high on riley leonard as qb2. And chris ballard said at the end of the year, Robert, hey, if Anthony's not right, we like what we saw from Riley, you know, if he can be our QB2. So saying that out loud just lets me know it's probably time to move on from Anthony. And I would myself look at perhaps even drafting a young quarterback to be that third guy if Anthony's not here.

[Robert Mays]

Looking at it right now, the financials of it, the culture, like $35 million in cap space. Functionally, it's probably closer to, like, 27, 28. Right. There are certain moves and certain considerations that we're going to have to talk about and think about here. How do you think they figure out the receiver? Specifically because you got a $29 million cap hit for Michael Pittman, who has been a productive player for you. But that's a really big number.

[James Boyd]

It is.

[Robert Mays]

They would save $20 million if they were to move on from him via cutting him or via trade. And then you have Alec Pierce hitting free agency. And I think that it's really easy to make the argument that right now you would rather have Alec Pierce, whatever his number is going to be, than Michael Pittman on a 20 million, $29 million Capitol. So how do you think that gets solved?

[James Boyd]

Absolutely. I think one, they might. And they probably should tag Alec Pierce because if he hits the open market, boy, the number is going to get high, especially this year. Robert Shumshree, you've elaborated here on the show. The wide receiver free agent market isn't all that great this year.

[Robert Mays]

It's bad. It's. It's consistently bad pretty much every single year now.

[James Boyd]

Exactly. So if he reaches that, I mean, I get. People are telling me now, like, is he a true number one receiver? It doesn't matter. It's what the league was willing to pay you. That number is going to get pricey. And so to perhaps absorb some of that cost. Yes. I think Michael Pittman Jr. Would be the guy on the cutting block. And he actually admitted it. I. I love his candor because right after the season ended literally in the locker room in Houston, and he goes, yeah, this was my last game as a colt. I loved it here because he knows that's a big number himself. And my thinking is, could they restructure? The Colts haven't done a lot of that in years past. They did it last year with Braden Smith. Would he be willing to do that? I mean, he has a farm here. His family's here. He is not really the diva receiver. I mean, the guy's from California and has a farm and loves, you know, horses and cows and stuff like that. And so that's great. But again, and my thing is, he's not worth that much money, but he's still a good player, that he's worth something. So can you restructure to half of that? Can you restructure something in that range? And then I think your palette, you know, feels a little bit better about bringing him back. So. But I'VE said it, you know, multiple times, Robert. If they do not bring Pittman back, then suddenly receiver becomes a big need. Even if you do keep Alec Pierce in toe.

[Robert Mays]

So let's just say hypothetically Pierce is on the roster for next year. You still have job flashdowns. They figure out receiver somewhere in the draft. They draft a guy. Daniel Jones is back, the next big consideration on the offense. You mentioned him. Braden Smith is hitting free agency suit what they've been able to do over the last couple years and it looked a lot better the first half of the year than the back half of the year. This plan along the offensive line where we have young players in the pipeline that we're drafting in the middle rounds, those are going to be our solutions. With Gonsalves and with Bortolini, I think that looked pretty darn good for most of last year. They have Jalen Travis, who they drafted in the fourth round last season. Do you just assume that they put Jalen Travis just steps in for Braden Smith if he is to move on? Do you think that's the plan?

[James Boyd]

I do think that is their plan and they had kind of been banking on that. And I do want to say for Braden Smith, he's been through a lot the last couple years. He had the OCD that he kind of got through and he's in a better place with that now and then. This past year his production as a player was still pretty good. It's just he got a little dinged up at the end of the season, had a concussion, had a neck injury. And so you're starting to think, okay, how healthy are you going to be? He's still managing like a. He's pretty candid about how he has a knee. Not like an injury. He's healthy enough to play, but it's something he hasn't managed for the rest of his career. And I think the Colts have done a pretty good job in years past. You look at a guy like Ryan Kelly of backfilling and kind of preparing these guys to come along and be ready to go. And I have to give credit to Tony Sprano Jr. As well. I think that he's one of the better offensive line coaches in the league.

[Robert Mays]

They become one of those teams where, where they, they really do maximize the players that they bring through. You can skimp on it resource wise in some ways. Other teams can't because you have a development plan. It is like a real weapon that they've been able to wield with that position specifically.

[James Boyd]

And they don't again, you talk about building a roster, every roster is going to have some flaws in it. But where can you, again, you look at, talk about money. That's where they can get a little bit cheaper, get younger. And Jaylen Travis, they're very high on him, very smart dude, I want to say had an internship with like Congress, you know, before he came over to the NFL and he wants to go into politics perhaps afterwards. And I'm like, you are one of God's favorites. Like, how are you this tall, this handsome and now you want to play football and then do this on the side. So jokes aside, though, they do believe that he, I think, is the future at that right tackle spot. And it wouldn't surprise me if he gets that day one starting role going into next year.

[Robert Mays]

File this under like things that might only be interesting to me. But if he is the starting right tackle for the Colts in terms of composition and where they found the players, it becomes the most interesting offensive line in the league. You have a third round pick at left tackle. The amount of third round picks that hit at left tackle was minuscule. But Bernard Ryman has played well.

[James Boyd]

Yes.

[Robert Mays]

Got an extension, justifiably. So you have a guard that you drafted in the top six, the highest drafted guard in the last, I don't know, however many years, decades. So that's a weird kind of isolated incident. And then you have a fourth round picket center, a third round picket right guard, and then a fourth round picket right tackle. I promise you there is no offensive line in the league composed of that sort of draft picks. And they're all in house draft picks, which is crazy. Such a weird group. But they have done a very good job of maximizing it.

[James Boyd]

Yeah, I have to give them credit for that. And honestly, Quentin Nelson is the one that still blows my mind because I don't think he's 30 yet and he probably has a Hall of Fame resume right now today. And anytime he's leading that room, they appreciate the leadership there. You can count on him to be one. It's still one of the most dominant offensive linemen in the league. But yeah, it is kind of funny that when we talk about needs and if you just list out where every guy was drafted, you would think that's a big, big need for this team. But no, it's usually okay what happens on the offense if Again, Michael Pittman Jr. Isn't here next year and then defensively need a lot of help on the other line for sure.

[Robert Mays]

So defense is where I think you could argue they have more needs because there are other position groups, offense. Even if right now you're looking at Pierce as a free agent, you look at Dan Jones a free agent, I trust that they're going to figure that out to a workable place on that side of the ball. On defense, the defensive line is the spot that, all right, what's going to happen here? You're getting a little bit older on the interior. And then and beyond Laatuatu, pretty much every single member of their edge rush rushing rotation is hitting free agency next year this spring. J.T. talamalu, who was a second round pick last year, didn't play a ton as a rookie. You assume he's going to be part of that plan. But as you think about the composition of the edge room, is that something that you feel is going to need to be addressed either in free agency or the draft because of how many guys are hitting the market?

[James Boyd]

Oh, absolutely. I would argue it's both. I want to say last year had eight and a half sacks, three interceptions, which was just weird. I don't know if I want to bank on him having another three interception season in his career. But you look at the other guys who are free agents that played a ton of snaps last year on the edge, Tyquan Lewis, Sampson Ebukom and Quiddy Pay, they combined as a group for nine sacks. And I'm thinking that's just not enough production. Quitty Pay, I believe, played all 17 games last year, only had maybe three sacks. That's not enough for a former first round pick. So I would argue that that mean most of those guys, if not all three, are going to be gone next year. And so you have to, I think, and the fans hate me for saying this, but I'm sorry, you have to probably draft another defensive end and they hate that. They're like, Chris Balor can't draft defensive ends. But I'm like, well it's an avenue to get a good player so you got to go get him. You can't just not do it. They're like, well, we quit just going free agency. But then I tell them, okay, well in free agency, and this is what Chris B. Told us. He they want to get younger and faster year. But I want to know like how realistic, what's the balance there? Because if you get, you know how it is. If you get a defensive end who's a free agent, they're going to have some warts, they're going to be older or they're going to be a little if they're younger, they're going to be injury prone. They might not be.

[Robert Mays]

Or they're going to have no production. Like Diodango, who's a former Colt that got paid a ton by Bears last year.

[James Boyd]

Exactly. So there's going to be some sort of trepidation there, but how comfortable are you in doing that? So, you know, we hear names like Trey Hendrickson. The relationship you have with Luana Rumo, would you go that route? Is he a young guy? No, he's coming off injury. Yes. But is he productive when he's healthy? Yes. So those are the things they have to consider. But absolutely. The defensive line, they had so many games last year, even on the stretch when they were banged up and hurt, they just could not get home and finish the game. And they were close in Kansas City. They were close against Seattle. I was thinking to myself, Philip Rivers might have given them one of the best games of the year at 44 years old, but that defense, again, just couldn't close. And you need closer densely.

[Robert Mays]

Trey Henderson is a name I hadn't really thought about, but if they free up a decent amount of money, if they move on from Michael Pittman, even if you bring back Pierce, they still would probably be able to do something kind of aggressive in the market. And so that hadn't been a name I had thought about, but they could make it work if they wanted to. It would be a little bit out of character. Like, what they did in free agency last year with Charvarius Ward is not something they typically do. So it would be the second straight year they've kind of stepped outside of their normal approach. But. But that's an interesting one to think about with Charvarius Ward, specifically, what do we think happens there? Because obviously, I mean, the injuries and the concussions have piled up to a degree that he's openly talking about retirement, whether that's the right option. Like, do you see him being part of their future in the short term here?

[James Boyd]

I do think he'll be a part of their future in the short term. I would lean towards him playing football in 2026, but the thing that I've always kind of gone back and forth with with him is, okay, how much of a contingency plan should you have built in place? Because unfortunately, it's a violent game, and he did have three concussions in about three months last year with this team. So how do you factor in the possibility of him getting another one? And he was very candid at the end of the season, during the season he told us, if I get one more, I might be done. This is it. And, you know, we know what he's been through with the tragedy with his daughter. And he made very clear, like, I don't want to lose anyone else in my family, including myself. He said, I want to remember everything when I get old, and I don't want to be the guy who, you know, once was. And then he made it very clear, which I loved. It was kind of a flex. Robert. He stands, looks at us, he's like, I made a lot of money, a lot of money. I'm like, well, I know that. And then he also says, I won a Super Bowl. I've started in multiple Super Bowls. I was an undrafted guy. Like, I beat all the odds, but within that, you can still tell that there's an edge. And then talking behind the scenes with some people, it sounds like he is willing to try to give it a go. But again, how much can you trust that if, you know, he's already said, if I get one more concussion, I'm done.

[Robert Mays]

They do have Justin Wally on the roster. They were very, very excited about in training camp last year. And it actually like the, the meme with a, with a small domino and the big domino. Justin Wall tearing his acl, oh my God. In the summer likely leads to the Sauce Gardener trade, which now makes you tied to Daniel Jones as your quarterback for the next two years. So the Justin Wally injury has like irreparably changed the next five years of Indianapolis Colts football in a way that I don't think we appreciate quite enough.

[James Boyd]

Oh, absolutely. And honestly, until you said it out loud like that, I really hadn't connected all the dots. But yes, they were so high on him. I believe he was a third round pick last year out of Minnesota. And actually Dane Brugler, I think had him as like a six rounder. So when they picked him, I was like, what? This is a reach. But then we got to training camp and Chris Ballard, you know, he was able to give me a little crow to eat. And he was telling me, like I told you, he's got cabal. And he was starting from day one of training camp. And I know people will say that's just training camp, but with Luana Rumo, we know he likes the older players

[Robert Mays]

and Lou, Lou loved him too. They were very excited outside and he

[James Boyd]

was making plays, joint practices. And he went down to joint practice in, in Baltimore against Lamar Jackson and those guys.

[Robert Mays]

I think that was the moment for everybody where they were like, this dude can Play boy.

[James Boyd]

And they went through a, a boatload of receivers. I mean not receivers, I'm sorry, cornerbacks before they got to saws garden. Because remember Xavin Howard was here for like a cup of coffee, which is crazy.

[Robert Mays]

And Howard Rams game will be burned into my mind for the rest of my life. So. But it's. Even if they were, I think the point is even if they, even if Mooney Ward didn't play, they still have Justin Wallace who they could step into that other outside corner spot and he would be a contingency plan if Ward were to get hurt. So corner is actually pretty solidified even considering the Mooney Ward part of this safety is the other position where. Okay, what's going to happen there? Because Nick Cross is a free agent, I assume he's going to get paid at the end decent amount of money in free agency. George Odom and Rodney Thomas, both of whom were depth free over the last couple years, those guys are hitting free agency. So that to me feels from the outside looking in like another position that they're going to need to address in some way.

[James Boyd]

Absolutely. And if you ask the fan base here, if you, even if you ask, obviously the Colts brass who drafted Nick Cross, they traded up to get him and he's delivered the last two years. He's shown that he can be a starting caliber safety in his league. They switched him from free safety to strong safety closer to the box. And I think that's. That fits him, you know, actually looks like a linebacker and he hangs out with him in the locker room as well. He's the D line and linebacker. So I'm like, where are you supposed to be right now? But for Nick Cross, the question I have is yes, I think that he deserves to get paid. But after you've already injected so much money and resources into your secondary, is it wise to pay a safety, another safety, that much money? Because if you think about it, you paid Cam Bonum, you paid Javarius Ward. You are, you know, I get that sauce guard is on a team friendly deal, but he's on a big contract. And so again, how many more guys can you continue to pay in that secondary and at what we would call a non premium position. So he's the most interesting one when it comes to the free agents besides the big names of like, what is his market value? Because we've seen like the safety, you know, market get suppressed in recent years. It can be kind of finicky. But he is a good player. They would like to have back.

[Robert Mays]

It's Part of the problem is when you look at it and what we're going to do is show about this next week, but just the positions that you can often find in free agency. There's a reason safety is that position teams just aren't really paying safeties and because there are so many available, that depresses their market even further. So it's a spot where if you just need a starting caliber safety in this free agent class, you're probably going to be able to find one. And that is a bad thing for somebody like Nick Cross. It's the exact opposite situation for somebody like Alec Pierce, where if it's not Alec Pierce, it's Romeo Dobbs. And even Romeo Dobbs is a better player than the guy who are available at free agency in last year's class at receivers. So it's the way the positions are affected by the market is absolutely something that's worth considering. Anything else from this team that you have at front of mind as we sit here on the eve of free agency in the draft that you feel like still needs to be figured out?

[James Boyd]

I think not necessarily figured out, but maybe just answered is the vision for Anthony Richardson and literally his vision. I know we talked to him at the end of the season and people were like, okay, well he's practicing. Why isn't he playing? He could not see fully. And I don't think people. And I love you all for being as passionate you are as fans, but I'm like, do you know how hard it is play football if you can't see fully? And I mean, you need all of it, the peripherals, everything like that. It isn't just, you know, making a couple throws. So we were asking about the eye because it's his right eye. And honestly, Robert, seeing him after the incident, he's cut under underneath his right eye. And it makes me want think like, okay, with all this stuff that happened and you, you know, and to explain the pro, like he was in the locker room, he's warming up. I think he attached a band or something in the locker room and that thing broke. Whatever it was, metal, plastic, it hit him in the face really hard. So imagine getting the fastball to the face at 90 miles an hour and when you look at where it hit him, in my mind, I'm think I'm thankful that he can still see at all out of his right eye. And he couldn't. And the team could not say definitively whether the vision would come back. They're optimistic that it will, but I mean, I'M optimistic about a lot of things in life and sometimes it doesn't work out like that. So where does that stand? And then if he does have the full vision or not, how does that affect him staying in Indianapolis, moving on to another team? If you're a team that wants to take a flyer on Anthony Richardson, yeah, you can deal with maybe the other injury stuff, but the eye is something like you got to be able to see for me to even take a chance on you. So where does that stand going into 2026?

[Robert Mays]

Lot of things to weigh with where the Colts are right now, on the edge of a crucial season for everybody involved. James Boyd, always great to chat with you, my friend. Great to see you. We'll do it again very soon.

[James Boyd]

Sounds good, man. Appreciate you.

[Robert Mays]

All right, guys, that's all we got for today. Thank you to Jesse, thank you to Alec, thank you to James for their time. We will be back with one more of these tomorrow. I couldn't even for the life of me tell you which three teams we're going to hit because I do not remember. We'll have our third and final show, the most interesting teams of the off season and then me, Dave and Derek will be back back with you on Friday as we recap the week that was in Indianapolis and all of the scuttlebutt that we have been hearing. Bengals, Ravens, Eagles, Bagels, Ravens, Eagles. Beller is the keeper of the schedule. He knows what's happening here. Bengals, Ravens, Eagles going to be coming to you guys tomorrow. For now, that is all we've got from Indy. I appreciate you guys. Listen, we'll talk to you very soon.

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