← The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
The Athletic Football Show: A show about the NFL
What's next for the Rams and Broncos after falling just short of the Super Bowl?
01:18:32
Loading summary
Transcript119 lines
- [00:00]
TurboTax Expert Advertiser
It's that time of year again for taxes. We all know the stress of the old way of filing. You send your documents off and then absolute radio silence. You're stuck refreshing your inbox and sending awkward just checking in texts, wondering if they've even started. But with TurboTax Expert full service I know my TurboTax Expert takes taxes fully off my plate and updates me every step of the way so I don't have to worry. That way I can get back to the things that matter to me, like going on vacation in the spring or enjoying the NFL off season. So stop chasing updates. It's time to switch to the modern tax filing Solution with Intuit TurboTax. The best part? You can get Experts progress right on your phone while you go about your day. So go for a run or grab a coffee. You'll know your dedicated expert is handling it, looking for every last deduction to get you the best possible outcome and every dollar you deserve. File with confidence. Visit turbotax.com, only available with TurboTax Full Service Experts real time updates only in iOS mobile app.
- [01:01]
Grow Therapy / Pura / Stamps.com Advertiser
Well being doesn't have to be a routine. Sometimes it's just feeling grounded the moment you walk into a room. Pura's well Being Collection makes that simple with fragrances that are intentional, fluid, restorative, balanced and smart. So your home can feel calm, cozy or refreshed right when you need it. With scent that adapts to your life, well being feels effortless and personal. Discover the full collection now@pura.com there are a million reasons people start therapy A breakup, Burnout, A new job, A new year. Whatever your reason, there is one place to start. Grow Therapy meets you where you are, with support that actually sticks. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US along with offering both virtual and in person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. There are no subscriptions, no long term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. So Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Visit GrowTherapy.comStartNow today to get started. That's GrowTherapy.comStartNow GrowTherapy.comStartNow availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.
- [02:52]
Dave Hellman
Foreign. Welcome to the Athletic Football Show. I am Dave Hellman. Robert Mays is out today, but never fear, Derek Classet and I have you covered for this week's edition of the Monday Morning Hangover. And it is a hangover type of day in multiple NFL cities coming out of conference championship weekend. Super bowl celebrations ongoing in Seattle and with the New England Patriots after their big wins. And the sad type of hangover for the LA Rams and the Denver Broncos as their seasons come to an end that was the focus of this week's post mortems. Derek and I breaking down where the Rams and the Broncos go from here. What can improve? How can they improve it heading into 2026? We also touched on some coaching news, some head coaching hires happening since the last time we talked to y'.
- [03:43]
Derek Classet
All.
- [03:44]
Dave Hellman
Very loaded show. Let's get into it. Well, Derek, it feels pretty fitting that we call these postmortems because I don't about you. I feel like I'm in a in a slight bit of mourning right now in the wake of these conference championship games. I'm very excited for the super bowl, but it's still two weeks away. And much like these teams that lost on Sunday, I really feel myself coping with the end of football season. I mean, there's one more game left, but it's not quite the same, you know, And I'm really, I'm grappling with the end of all of this for nine more months.
- [04:23]
Derek Classet
And with these two teams, right. Like I think some of these other postmortems we've done, it's like, you know, when, when the Jaguars lose or the Niners lose, it's like you were pretty good teams. You were probably never going to win the super bowl anyway. And I think it's a little bit of a different thing with teams like the Broncos, especially it having ended for them, like not being able to have Bo Nix in this game. And then you don't really get to play like a real fourth quarter at the end of your AFC Championship game. And then the Rams on the other end being like toe to toe with the Seahawks as the best team in football for a lot of this season and really being the only team in offense and quarterback that could really give that Seahawks team hell the way that they did. For those two teams specifically to be playing no more football, it does really feel like I'm going to miss not being able to see these teams, specifically the Rams, in their offense and then with the Broncos, their defense. I'm a little sad we're not going to be able to get any more of them this year and we'll get into it.
- [05:14]
Dave Hellman
But the Rams are obviously pushing in a very unique way with the timeline that Matthew Stafford is. And like you said, I mean, it's just a different circumstance with the Broncos where the team that got you to 14 wins is not what you had there for that final game. And so, yeah, I'm. I'm thinking of this off the dome. I guess Buffalo would be the other one. Buffalo would be the third team, I think, in this group where you look at the failure to reach the super bowl as a very legitimate missed opportunity. Everybody else, it's kind of like, all right, well, were you really going to get there with the injuries that you had or the youth on this team? But these two conference finalists, and I'll throw the Bills in there are. Those are the ones where I feel like it's going to be stinging for the longest.
- [06:01]
Derek Classet
Those were the big ones. And I feel like too, among the other postmortems we did, the Bills one when they lost was probably the longest we spent on that. Like, you know, Panthers and 49ers teams like that just didn't take as much time. Bills took a lot of airspace, so it's a good one to throw out.
- [06:15]
Dave Hellman
So let's get into it. Y' all have been doing it the same way all through the playoffs. We're just going to go chronologically. The Broncos played the Patriots first, so that's where we're going to start. And I remember talking to you about this in August. Man, I wasn't always sold on the Denver Broncos, and I had my qualms with their offense and their quarterback and how they managed to win some of the games that they won in 2025. But if we are officially turning the page to 2026, I am pretty sky high about the long term outlook for this team. Like, if we can go ahead and assume that Bo Nix's recovery from the ankle break is going to be okay, which I imagine that it would be. There is so much to like about this Denver team that exceeded a lot of expectations, got better results than I think a lot of us expected from their offense, and we'll get into it. But they've already done a lot of the heavy financial lifting for their team. Like, the Broncos locked so many pieces of this roster into place before or during this season. I know it sucks to lose the conference championship game, but I head into 2026 feeling like this team is a move or two away from potentially being.
- [07:32]
Derek Classet
Even better and they still don't have to pay Bo Nicks this off season. Like, this is only year two. You can't even pay guys until after year three, and so that's not really going to be a consideration for them. Like, I do feel like there are so many times where a team reaches this point and it feels like, man, they got a little bit lucky to be here. Like, this was supposed to be their year. And we'll kind of talk about the Rams, I think, a little bit in that way. But with Denver, this is like, I don't want to say ahead of schedule, but it's usually like teams have to fully max out the credit card to get here, and that's just not the case with Denver. If anything, they were maxed out already from all the rest stuff, and now they're going into this season with pretty good resources. In terms of draft picks, I think they have a couple of extra picks in this draft. None of them are like super high up in their draft, but any resources they can have to throw at depth, I think is a good thing. Because I really do, like, look at this roster, too, and there are maybe one or two spots where I would want to improve the starting quality play. Like, especially with some of the guys potentially leaving, like Alex Singleton might leave. So you're probably going to need a new starting linebacker. You might need one or new two pieces up front because you're going to have to change some of those guys. Maybe you want to add one more thing at wide receiver, but like, this to me is like, they just need to keep building the depth of this team. They've got plenty of resources to do it, and if they want to take one or two big swings in free agency, they're going to have the money to do that as well. So I'm pretty bought in on where this team is going, the infrastructure of it all with the offensive line, the head coach, how good the defensive line is. Like, I just, I'm probably going to be buying Denver again next year.
- [08:58]
Dave Hellman
So let's just run through it for the sake of clarity. Your key free agents coming out of this season, you've got John Franklin Myers heading for unrestricted free agency, along with the two linebackers, Alex Singleton and Justin Sternod. J.K. dobbins got hurt way back in early November, but he was sitting on 772 rushing Y halfway through the season. So that's conceivably a guy you might be interested in bringing back. Adam Troutman, not, not huge counting stats, but played a significant role on this team. And then you have restricted free agents in Jaquan McMillan who made the, we'll call it, controversial interception against the Bills. And then you have Nate adkins and Jaleel McLaughlin. So mainly Jaquan McMillan and depth pieces mainly as restricted free agents. Restricted free agency basically means if the Broncos are interested in bringing back McMillan, they absolutely can. You just put a tender on him and it's a pretty easy thing to accomplish. So I really love John Franklin Myers as a player. I would certainly be interested in bringing him back if the bidding for him isn't completely out of whack. I'm 43 pressures, seven and a half sacks over the course of the year. But outside of that, man, to your point, like, yes, Singleton has been a good player for them, but you look at this and say there's nobody here, that we are completely screwed if we don't manage to hold on to them when the league year starts. And I'll say it one more time, that is because shouts out to the Broncos front office for getting ahead of this stuff, really two years in a row. Because during the lead up to this 2025 season, they inked Cortland Sutton, Zach Allen and Nick Bonito. And then during the season they take care of Luke Wattenberg, their center, and Malcolm Roach on the defensive line. That's during the season. And like I said last year, it's Pat Certain, it's Quinn Minors, it's Garrett Bowles, Jonathan Cooper and DJ Jones. Like they have done an enormous amount of business ahead of time over the last last two years. And that's how you can wind up in a situation where even after a 14 win season, you're sitting here saying, okay, there's some guys we might like to have back, but nothing that's non negotiable when the time comes.
- [11:17]
Derek Classet
They're not losing any like Pro Bowlers really. And like again, I also love John Franklin Myers, especially the way that he plays Just like £285. Try to run through your face, but he's, I don't know, the third, fourth, fifth best player on that front, which is more of a testament to how good that front is than anything. And so he to me and actually want to ask you this question. Of the guys that they have available to bring back, like JFM is, that's the one I If I have a priority on a guy, that's the one I want to bring back. Singleton is tricky because, like, mentally I think he's good for the defense. Like, to have a guy who's been in the defense for that long. He's played better, I think, this last year than he had in previous seasons. But he's 32, and I think that, you know, how long do you. Do you want to hold that out for a linebacker, that sort of thing? I think it would help them to get a little bit younger there. The other one, actually, to me is at tight end. It's not Adam Troutman, and this is going to take, like, no amount of money for them to do. But, like, I would absolutely keep Nate Atkins. I think he's like a perfect. You have a depth guy. He's a great blocker. He's really good as a move piece. Like, those, to me would be like, if I'm just in terms of keeping guys, not necessarily looking outside of the building yet. That's who I want to keep in the building. That's the.
- [12:21]
Dave Hellman
It sucks for players, but that's the fun thing about restricted free agency is the Broncos can look at Nate Adkins and say, we like you. We like the job you did. You're staying here because we're going to put a tender on you that's going to keep anybody else from wanting to bid for your services. I hesitate to speak in black and white terms because it's always going to depend on the price. Like, if Alex Singleton can get done for something that's not completely cost prohibitive, that's not going to screw up my overall plan. We can talk. But for me, John, Franklin Myers is the only guy on this list where I'm like, all right, let's try to get something done. We actively want you back. And to be fair, the Broncos might not even feel that way just because of the resources they've already allocated. I mean, I just said DJ Jones and Malcolm Roach have re upped for sizable contracts. Nick Bonito is in the fold. You've spent a lot of money on the front. So I am curious to see. Not that they don't like JFM as a player, but do they think they can just throw that many big contracts at their front and expect everything else to work out? But I would be willing to, and if that means I'm replacing Alex Singleton with a draft pick, I think that's completely fine.
- [13:36]
Derek Classet
Yeah, like, you're going to have to take your medicine some way in some fashion of, like, we're just going to not spend here and get younger. And so I would rather do that at linebacker and just keep the front insane because I know we always talk about, like how long the Runway can be for young linebackers, but I think that becomes a little bit less true if the front five in front of you is completely insane and just like always making space for you. And so I think that that could be a little bit easier. Obviously, whoever that young guy is would be playing next to Dre Greenlaw as well, which I think would. Would help them a lot. So that would be how I want to do it. I also did start to look at, okay in terms of free agency, like trying to get guys from outside of the building. How would I want them to go about this? Like, what are the things that I would want from them? I think they could use some help at wide receiver. I know they've got like a couple of nice pieces in certain ways, but wide receiver I think in free agency is going to be hard. Unless I really don't think like a one year rental for Mike Evans is a bad idea. Trying to be something like the Bengals, where you just have these two skyscrapers on the outside. Really three if you include Pat Brian in the slot. Like, I think just being such a sized based team when one of the things that Bo Nicks will do is he'll just kind of throw intermediate and deep outside the numbers, I kind of think that's a fun way to go about it. And then the other one, to me, I would be more interested in looking at like a running back to pair with RJ Harvey, somebody who you think is more stable. Like, I think Rashad White makes a lot of sense for the way Sean Payton likes to run his offense. Emmanuel Wilson is like a low cost one and then the one that might break their bank a little bit, but I think would actually be fantastic for what they want to do. Tyler Algier in this Denver Broncos offense I think would kick.
- [15:13]
Dave Hellman
Oh, I like that a lot. I first, I really, I appreciate how you're trying to find Mike Evans a home outside of Tampa after all of these years. I feel like that's been a theme, but it would be fun to see. But Tyler Algier as the battering ram player to what RJ Harvey brings to the equation I think would be incredibly fun. I'm just, I'm going to skip to that part in my notes because it's cliche and everybody loves to find receivers and running backs for teams and I know there's more to it than that. But capital letters in my notes is just weapons. I don't really care how the Broncos do it. Obviously, Cortland Sutton's under contract, Harvey and Pat Bryant both had nice rookie seasons, but that was what we were worried about in August. Like when we had the initial conversations about do the Broncos deserve a seat at our championship table and how high is their ceiling really. It just didn't feel like the skill position talent was, was correct for a real deal run at the Super Bowl. And to be fair to them, they got a lot further than I would have expected. But my opinion about all of that is completely unchanged, like, whether it's in free agency. The Broncos have three top 100 picks in the draft this year. As of right now, I'm trying to use two of those on skill players if it's up to me. And like I said, I know you could need a linebacker. You might need to plug a hole on the front. I think there are some conversations to be had about the age and the depth on the offensive line, but for a team that was a game away from the Super Bowl, I'm trying to soup up the skill positions and it really doesn't matter to me. Running back, receiver, even tight end, they just got to get some more juice on this offense.
- [16:56]
Derek Classet
I was in 100% the same boat. Like, my notes look almost identical. The other free agent I didn't even mention in terms of weapons was I think somebody like David Njoku could actually be pretty fun in an offense like this, where he's a guy who's a really movable piece, great athlete, can be used underneath, but also I think a better blocker than people realize. And so he would fit a lot of what Sean Payton wants to do. I think that that could be a fun one. And obviously I don't think the Browns are going to be that pressed on keeping him around, given how good Harold Fannin was. And they're just in such a transition period anyway that I think he'll probably be able to hit the open market. And so that is another one. And then when I put. When I tried to layer how I wanted them to handle the draft, I put it in basically like early rounds. So, yeah, first two rounds and then I had like a different plan for mid to late, but my early round was like, yeah, I'm thinking running back, receiver, tight end, maybe a linebacker. Like they really do need. They have a lot of guys who fit roles right on the offense, but they just, I feel like to be a truly great offense, you need two skill players who can, at a given point, change the game. And so it doesn't have to be all five guys, but you need two. And to me, the Broncos really only have one in Cortland Sutton. Like, he can have these moments where he can really take over, but otherwise, it's guys who are just filling roles. If they could get one more guy with some pop, whether it's running back, tight end, another fast receiver, whatever it is, that would, I think, make this offense feel a little bit more. A little bit more full, feel like it has more options going into next year.
- [18:18]
Dave Hellman
It's going to be interesting to see how Sean Payton and George Payton play this over the next few months, because they could be as aggressive as they want to be. So per over the cap, right now, they list the Broncos at 27 million in total cap space. About 15 million of that is like, effective liquid cap space. But they can. It. It is not an issue. They can trigger as much cap space as they want to by sending out a few emails to agents and restructuring some contracts. I mean, I listed all the guys that they've inked over the last few years so you can play around with Pat, certain money, Quinn, minors, DJ Jones, Mike McGlinchey, Talano, Hu, Funga. Like, there is. There is an endless array of guys that you could mess with their money and free up as much as like, 55, 60 million dollars in cap space. And so how hard do the Broncos want to push? How comfortable do they feel stressing their cap? You know, do they want to do extensions with some guys this year? Do they want to go after some big fish? Cause, like, I look at this and think, well, you have done such a good job of identifying guys in house that are worth paying and holding onto. And they brought in Hunga and Greenlaw last year, so you kind of had an active free agency in 2025. I don't really think they need to do that. Like, I think a couple smart, moderate signings and a good draft class could get you where you need to go. But if you really feel like you want to push this thing, the Broncos could have that type of off season if they wanted to and really make a splash. When you're talking about who we're talking about to win the Super bowl in.
- [20:02]
Derek Classet
2026, they really could. And I think. I do think on offense, it's, like, hard to find who that player would be. Right. Like, the big one for a lot of people at receiver is going to be Alec Pierce. Right? But that would be such a Huge swing and would pretty much take whatever money that they have this off season. Like, it would be. That would be their big swing. But again, that fits into the Mike Evans mold, right where it's like, if Bo Nix is going to be this guy who does trust his receivers, intermediate media to deep and is willing to throw some of these shots, Pierce is, is the best young guy you're probably going to get for that. I'm. I'm taking the assumption that George Pickens is going to be back in Dallas, so, like, he probably is your best bet for that. But yeah, whatever it is, I just. A little bit more pop on the offense I think would be nice and then a little bit more youth at linebacker. And like, I. This feels like, obviously this is super far ahead, but this feels like a team that will be in the final eight again next year. You know, just trying to look ahead a little bit.
- [20:54]
Dave Hellman
Would you, would you do something that bold? And yeah, I think it's a good. It's a good guess on your part that George Pickens won't be available for one reason or another. So that means we're talking about Alec Pierce. That means we're. Yeah, we're talking about maybe Mike Evans. Like, does a Romeo Dobbs make sense for this team? Could I interest you in a Jawan Jennings? Like, how aggressive do you think the Broncos need to be with this thing?
- [21:22]
Derek Classet
I think guys like Romeo Dobbs and Juwan Jennings are good and nice players. But I think if I'm going to do the wide receiver route, I want like the Mike Evans one year rental where I just think he has a much higher ceiling than some of those players. And so I'd swing for that or I would go all the way. With the Alec Pierce route being like, no, we're really investing in wide receiver long term, whereas I think those other two guys kind of fit into more of a middle ground for other teams. But I don't know, like, again, it is hard to find what the swing would be. So I'm probably more with you. Like, I think this is a roster where you try to use whatever money you have this off the season to patch some holes. You know, maybe again you mentioned it, like some tackle depth I think would be nice. Like if they sign, like if Buffalo lets Ryan Vandemark go or whatever it is, something like that. Maybe you add like one of those mid tier stable backs to pair with RJ Harvey. That helps you out. And then I would probably take like big firepower swings in the first round because I do think like you're a lot of teams that are like need to reload in some ways in the first round, like would need to pick trenches but like Denver really doesn't like they have a little bit of flexibility to take some more of the flashery, flashy luxury picks with their first round pick and I would probably lean that way.
- [22:34]
Dave Hellman
Couple other things I wanted to hit on. I guess let's take the full view of this because it can't all be sunshine and roses as we're recording this. We don't know right now what the future holds for Vance Joseph. I haven't heard a ton of buzz about his head coaching prospects, but I you know, I have seen his name linked at least to the Arizona Cardinals job. He was the defensive coordinator there for four years after losing the head coaching job in Denver. So as of right now we can't rule out the possibility that he's not there. Although if he were to leave the Broncos would get a third round compensatory pick for their troubles. So I feel like that's a pretty good spot to be in. Does like if they were to lose him, does that alter your opinion of this defense or what to expect there moving forward?
- [23:24]
Derek Classet
I would say to some degree because I think even if I have a good amount of faith that Sean Payton could find another guy to fill into that role, I think obviously he's just been around for so long and has typically done a good job of I think more recently finding defensive guys. Obviously had Dennis Allen at the end there and then Vance Joseph now keeping him around. I and it's a really talented defense so I think whoever they bring in is going to have a chance. But defense to me in most cases there is like a one year workup period where like the first year of really trying to build in a new defensive scheme, it's just hard to implement every single thing that you want. Like I think about what the Chargers were like the Chargers were a pretty good defense in 2024, but had some holes, had a couple of things that they just weren't able to maybe call the way that they wanted to. I think in 2025 they really took a step because it was a lot of the same guys and then they were able to I think implement some more calls, be a little bit more dynamic on the defense and so they would probably lose 5 to 10% of their of their punch, of their magic if they lost a guy like Vance Joseph. But I'm kind of with you. I feel like I don't haven't seen a whole lot of buzz of him going somewhere and there's only so many spots left open at this point. I mean, there's only two or three head coaching champ and I think based on the broadcast of some of those games, I'm going to assume the Raiders are going in a different direction. So. So I don't know. I think I would be interested, but I have a good amount of faith that the defense would be okay. Just probably not like the A plus unit they were this year.
- [24:49]
Dave Hellman
Hopefully Tom Brady didn't oversell his hand there on Sunday night. The other one is in the immediate wake of of the Patriots game. Davis Webb is out interviewing for head coaching vacancies. I saw he was linked to the Bills, but again, talk about a best case scenario. I mean, brain drain is always something you have to guard against, but for a team where the offense is implemented, schemed, called by Sean Payton, I think you're better suited to lose voices on the offensive side of the ball better than a lot of other teams would be. Like, of course I think you'd rather keep him, but I'm sleeping a little easier if I'm the Broncos than I would be if I were a lot of other teams. So yeah, that's. Sorry if I sound like a sunshine pumper, but for me this is really just a matter of how aggressively the Broncos want to push this. They currently have seven draft picks. They have three top 100 picks. They gained a fourth in the Devon Valley trade with the New Orleans Saints before the season. They're expected to get a couple comp picks in the spring for Javante Williams and they lost Riley Dixon as well. So I mean, you could wind up with nine or 10 draft picks and like I said, you could get an extra third if Vance Joseph does wind up leaving. We already mentioned the deal with the cap space. The Broncos have all the resources in the world to improve a team that just won 14 games. Off the top of my head, I guess a couple other things I think are worth mentioning. What do you do with Ben Powers? I think he's got a year left on his contract. He missed half the year with I believe a biceps injury. Do you want to do an extension? There are again, are you worried about the long term depth? This is between Garrett Bowles and Mike McGlinchey and Ben Powers and some of these guys. This is not a young offensive line and I know we can wait.
- [26:41]
Derek Classet
It's a cheap offensive line.
- [26:42]
Dave Hellman
It is not a cheap offensive line either. So that might be where you look to try to save some money and find a succession plan. You know, if you want to draft a guard or sign a younger guy to come in, I think that makes a lot of sense. But, but I really feel like we're nitpicking here, man. I feel like the Broncos are going to return all but a very small handful of starters from a very good team. And yeah, they pick. So they pick 30th in the first round. I think their, their draft position is finalized. Find yourself a couple skill players, find yourself another linebacker. And, and I'm, I'm saying let's cook, man. Like, I'm sky high on what this team could be in 2026.
- [27:22]
Derek Classet
Yeah, I'm with you. I know there's going to be some regression talk of, oh, they want all these close games in the comebacks, but like the roster is still good regardless of all that stuff and they've, they've got plenty of resources to continue to.
- [27:32]
Dave Hellman
Make it better, which I was about to move on. But before we do that, let's, let's talk about it briefly. We've had plenty to say about Bo Nicks, the good that he's done. We've been plenty critical of him as well. Year three let's just assume the Broncos find a couple ways to upgrade the talent around him. What is, what, what is your reasonable expectation for where this could go? And I mean like, what you got out of Bo Nix was already good enough to get you to the conference championship. But how much more do you hope or think Bo Nicks could grow? Especially I think it's worth pointing out this is not, not the most talent lad offense at least skill player wise in the NFL. I mean, how much higher can Bo Nicks take this thing, do you think?
- [28:23]
Derek Classet
Yeah, I'm, I mean, I've gotten a lot of stuff from Broncos fans over the last handful of most of the year. I'm not the biggest Bo Knicks fan. I think even of some of their success, I'm still not. He's just like, not to me a super load bearing quarterback. And so in my mind I struggle to see this ever being like an elite offense with Bo Knicks, but I think that they can be like the 8th best offense with a guy like Bo Nix. I think especially too like if they bring in skill talent at wide receiver that fits what he does. Because I think when I think about a guy like Bo Nix, he still does not like to throw a lot of the middle of the field. Like you have to kind of coax him into doing that. It's A lot of like 5 yard and under or we're throwing these deep shots out outside the numbers. You know, Robert and I have talked about a number of times. There's a lot of overlap with what Jalen Hurts is, is for the Philadelphia Eagles and Knicks currently is a much better athlete than Jalen Hurts is. And so I think that certainly helps him a lot. But I think trying to build like that style of offense, which I think is why at times you've seen the Denver offense try to be more of a run heavy approach, even though it's never really been quite as good as it has been with the Eagles. And so I think they can get to again if they make a little like, if they get one more wide receiver I like and maybe they upgrade the tight end room a little bit. I could totally see them being like the ninth best offense in the league last or next year because this year they were hovering around average for most of the year and it ticked up a little bit towards the end of the season, but I would say like eighth or ninth, like that back end of the top 10. That's, that's kind of what I would hope for if they make the upgrades we want.
- [29:51]
Dave Hellman
I'm so glad you brought up Hertz so I don't have to be the one that broaches the subject. But I'm, I'm going to throw you my, my agnostic take here because I trotted this out in the summer and I got pushback and I get it. It's, it's not very interesting if we're trying to like fairly evaluate the hierarchy of quarterbacks and who's actually the best in the league. I said it last year. It doesn't really matter how good Jalen Hurts is. If you have, if you prove you can win a Super bowl with him and like it's not fun for the content creators and the people that make lists and do TV and us, but that, that's all that an NFL team should care about. And I do think Bo Nix is a good enough player to win you a Super bowl, particularly if you continue to upgrade the offensive talent around him. Like, I don't give a shit if he needs two Pro bowl receivers and four All Pros on his offensive line. Like if that's going to get a trophy in the case, that's really all that matters. And I think what I, what I learned about Bo Nixon this year is that he crosses that threshold for me, even if I don't think of him as an upper echelon quarterback, considering you can't even talk to him about an extension until after next year, and then whatever you wind up paying him isn't going to matter till a few years after that. You can build a juggernaut around this guy. And I will point out, Derek, look, the Eagles have managed to do that with the way that they spend resources and the stuff that they can do with their salary cap. The Broncos have Walmart money. Man like the Denver Broncos can absolutely surround this guy with a juggernaut of a team. And does that mean Bo Nix will ever be a top five quarterback in the NFL? I wouldn't bet on it, but he could absolutely win you a Super Bowl. I think that's what I learned about Bo Nicks this year, and. And that's what I would be trying to do if I were the Denver Broncos is surround him with enough talent to make that a reality.
- [31:56]
Derek Classet
That's the thing. A quarterback of his caliber, it's not that you can't do it. It's just in my mind, like, he can bear less of the load, and then the roster has to be great. But the roster already is great. They proved that. Like, if not again, for a snowstorm and Bo busting his ankle, they probably do get to the Super Bowl. And I think, like, we're going to preview Seahawks, Patriots and all that stuff. My early impression is that I think the Seahawks blast the Patriots in that game. I think the Broncos would have stood a much better chance against this Seahawks team because I just think they're a much better roster, top to bottom. And so. So if we're already saying that and the Broncos have the ammo to theoretically make this a better roster, you know, maybe none of those moves hits, however we think that's going to happen. But they theoretically could be a better roster than they already are. Now, I just. Yeah, he's crosses the threshold. Even if I think for me, it's like, by an inch.
- [32:46]
Dave Hellman
Hey, it's like. It's like Dom Toretto said, it doesn't matter if it's by an inch or by a mile. The Lombardi Trophy is what matters in this league. So I'm. I am very in on the Broncos, and I'm excited to see just how hard they want to push it this year. And real quick, before we finish up, it's. It's just. It's worth remembering, you know, heading into this season, it was the Chiefs division until proven otherwise, and the Broncos ceiling was as a wild card and all that fun stuff. And, man, talk about kicking those doors down and Yeah, I mean, I don't think the Chiefs are going to go away quietly, but this team has proven that they can win the AFC West. They can be a big time factor in the playoff picture. And like you said, I would expect that to continue in 2026 no matter what they do in the off season. All right, we're going to take a quick break and right after that we will dive into the LA Rams.
- [33:48]
Robinhood / Boost Mobile Advertiser
What if Sports were traded like markets? Now you can put your sports IQ to work in real time with Robinhood Prediction Markets. It's not you against the house, it's you participating in a live market. You can buy or sell your positions live all game long. Use your sports knowledge in the moments that matter. Robinhood Prediction Markets changes the game. It's people moving the action so when momentum shifts, you can move with it. I always knew the game but never had a dynamic way to apply that knowledge. Now I can actually take part. Live In a market powered by people, you're no longer just a spectator. Play by play, you decide. Trade every play with Robinhood now available across the U.S. download the Robinhood app now to begin futures and clear Swaps. Trading involves significant risk and is not appropriate for everyone. Event contracts are offered by Robinhood Derivatives llc, a registered futures commission merchant and swap firm.
- [34:43]
Derek Classet
Boost Mobile is now sending experts nationwide to deliver and set up customers new phones.
- [34:47]
Robinhood / Boost Mobile Advertiser
Wait, we're going on tour?
- [34:49]
Derek Classet
We're delivering and setting up customers phones. It's not a tour, not with that attitude. Introducing store to door switch and get.
- [34:54]
Grow Therapy / Pura / Stamps.com Advertiser
A new device with expert setup and delivery.
- [34:56]
Dave Hellman
Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com hey, it's Adam Grant from Ted's podcast Work.
- [35:02]
Derek Classet
Life, and this episode is brought to you by. ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into.
- [35:09]
Dave Hellman
That's why it's no surprise that more.
- [35:11]
Derek Classet
Than 85% of the Fortune 500 companies use the ServiceNow AI platform, while other.
- [35:16]
Dave Hellman
Platforms duct tape tools together. ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data, workflows and.
- [35:22]
Derek Classet
AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously.
- [35:28]
Dave Hellman
Anyone in any department can focus on.
- [35:30]
Derek Classet
The work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people@servicenow.com.
- [35:43]
Dave Hellman
All right, Derek, it's all optimism and sunshine and roses for the Denver Broncos. I feel a little more existential with the Los Angeles Rams, and I mean, I think that that comes into play when you have a quarterback who's about to turn 38 years old. And we talked about it in the immediate aftermath of the game, I mean, we know what was on the line. You could see how badly Sean McVay wanted this game. Did you, did you happen to see, did you see the post game where Sean McVay, I mean, he was fired up taking questions from reporters after that game. And I think he was asked about Stafford's future and he was like, yeah, if he wants to play, like, what the hell kind of question is that? Do I, is Matt. Do I want Matthew Stafford back? And Stafford very eloquently said, and I can't generalize six months of my life in, in 10 minutes, which is totally fair. But those questions are going to have to start getting answered very quickly because how we feel about the LA Rams moving into 2026 hinges almost entirely on whether you get one more year of Matthew Stafford or not.
- [36:51]
Derek Classet
That that's what makes this complicated because I think if he comes back, I'm actually not as doom and gloom for 2026 as I thought I was going to be. Like, they're really not really up for losing that many pieces. They have a little bit of financial flexibility. If they want like draft capital wise. They obviously have two first round picks and I think with some of the positions that they potentially need, like maybe you want a new tackle. Rob Havenstein is older and he's going to be a free agent. I think they really need to upgrade at corner linebacker, at least by my early view. It seems like this is a good class for all of those things and they've got first draft round picks at those spots. So like obviously when we did some of this exercise like three months ago, it was like, oh, well, they can just trade both of those first round picks and one of them is going to be the ninth overall pick and they can move that up and go get a quarterback. That's probably out of the question at this point, given it's most likely seems like a one quarterback class unless they really love Ty Simpson or something like that. And so in terms of like the future, there's some doom and gloom for the Rams. But if Stafford comes back, man, like this roster is mostly going to be intact and maybe Devonte Adams falls off the cliff, maybe Stafford falls off the cliff because of his health stuff. You know, he was, I think he'd even at some point joked this year that he was healthier than he thought he would be this late into the season. But if he comes back and plays, man, like I, I know we're doom and gloom about what this season was and how it ended. But, like, they could still win 12 games next year, and it would not be. It would not shock me whatsoever.
- [38:13]
Dave Hellman
If football was played in a vacuum, I would be buying all the Rams stock I could find and I say exist very intentionally. Because my concern with the Rams, like you just alluded to, is how much do you want to bet it goes this well again? You know, like, just because we were wrong about Matthew Stafford's health heading into the season doesn't mean that that was a misguided fear, right? Like, for him to get through this campaign and the finger injury that he suffered in the Carolina playoff game is, like, as bad as it got for him, does not mean it's going to go that way if he comes back. I mean, the. The list is long of players that have come back for one more go around, and I will get over the top next time. And it doesn't always go as beautifully as you want. I mean, if Matthew Stafford wants to come back, absolutely, you take that chance and you try to overcome it anyway. But it's just a lot of unknowns. And if I had to guess, we're going to just like we did last year, we're going to get the answer to this sooner rather than later. Stafford's got one year remaining on the deal he worked last year. I believe there's a $40 million guarantee very quickly after the new league year. And honestly, if I had to guess, if the guy wins mvp, I mean, even if he doesn't, considering how he played, he might want to rework that deal anyway. Like, even at the age of 38 and. And not knowing for sure that he wants to play another year, if that's what he decides, I would very easily expect a yesterday's price is not the same as today's price sort of conversation in order to come back and do this all over again.
- [39:59]
Derek Classet
I would do, yeah, you win the mvp, even if you don't know if you're coming back next year, you get to say and ask for whatever you want. So I would be doing that if I was him. I do think the quarterback thing is fascinating, though, because I think, like, let's say Stafford leaves and let's make the assumption that McVeigh is not going to want to draft anybody just because the roster is already really great and it doesn't seem like a very deep quarterback class. I really don't know what kind of guy they want to go after. Like, do they just keep Jimmy around and let him run the offense for a year? Do they go and sign, like, a Geno Smith, do they try to get like something like that? Do they bring in a Mac Jones? Like, I truly don't know what they would. Obviously Mac Jones would probably not happen because you'd have to trade for him. But like, I just don't know what McVay would even want. Like the only one that I, if I was doing like football science experiment, I do think a Malik Willis In a Sean McVay offense would be, be incredible because we've never really seen him have an ath, an athlete at the position like that. You know, he toyed around with it a little bit with John Wolford at the end of the Jared Yoff era, but I think that was a little bit of a different, different caliber that we'd be working here with Malik Willis.
- [41:05]
Dave Hellman
So for starters, Jimmy Garoppolo is a free agent as well. So if the Rams wanted him back, I mean at this point in his career, obviously you could sign him. That's not a big deal. But you would have to bring him back. Otherwise we're talking about Malik Willis, we're talking about Marcus Mariota and Russell Wilson. Oh my goodness. I mean, I don't.
- [41:28]
Derek Classet
Russell Wilson is an absolute no go in the Sean McVeigh offense.
- [41:32]
Dave Hellman
I, I guess, like, I mean, what you want to talk about no go? How about Aaron Rodgers? How does that strike your fancy?
- [41:38]
Derek Classet
Oh God, that sounds terrible. Going from somehow having 38 year old Stafford and then potentially getting older at quarterback would be crazy.
- [41:48]
Dave Hellman
I don't love these options, man. I really, I don't know. This, this is there. I got, I got nothing backing this up. This is pure gut feeling. But I just think you gotta, you gotta find a way to, to run this back. And like, and you know, with the way Stafford played and with the way Stafford played, I don't think it should be that hard of a sell. Like, I mean to get that close to the super bowl and to play at that level and I mean you've got one year remaining on your deal anyway, even if you want to alter it and give them a pay raise or whatever. Yeah, I mean like it, it just feels like the most logical conclusion. And the season went well enough that it's easy to imagine Stafford not wanting to step away. And so it just feels like that's what has to happen otherwise. Yeah, I mean like you're probably talking about resigning Jimmy Garoppolo and maybe looking for a quarterback you can draft and develop, if not in the first round, then somewhere along the line. And that's just nowhere near as exciting as gearing up to try to do this all over again with the potential mvp.
- [42:57]
Derek Classet
Well, and that's the thing, why I would really want to bring Matthew Stafford back is it frees up what you can do with your draft capital. Because I really do think that this is like a great opportunity for the Rams to address some of the positions that I know. What they, how they've handled corner and how they've handled linebacker for such a long time is like a very clear top down. This is how we build the team thing. This also needs to be like we've seen for a long time we said, oh, the Eagles only build their teams in certain ways and then they went out and spent a bunch of money on Saquon Barkley and then spent a first round pick on a linebacker. Like, teams can change who they are just like as years go on and they can learn lessons and be like, okay, we don't always have to build our team this way. Building it that way might have worked five, six years ago, but we don't have to continue doing that. This to me would be a very good like, okay, we were this thing for seven, eight years. Let's try to build the defense a different way. Especially as we saw in that playoff game. Like them not having quality linebackers and cornerbacks absolutely killed them against a team like the Seahawks. And so I think them sitting at 13 and 29 with what should be available at some of those positions, including as well as tackle. Like, I just, this feels like such a good pivot. Let's kind of make the health of the roster a little bit better, try to run it back with Stafford one more year and then we can do our transition like that. That just seems to me like the best way to go about this instead of fiddling around with using one of those top 60 picks on a quarterback and trying to develop them.
- [44:23]
Dave Hellman
So for the purposes of this conversation, let's just, we'll put a pen in Stafford and just say that in three to six weeks we're going to get a Michael Jordan I'm back graphic on social media and we're going to run it back. Let's just assume for right now that that's going to happen and we can take one more look at the alternative in a minute. But let's, let's just assume that's going to happen outside of that big existential threat. To your point, the future looks pretty bright in la, man. Like outside of not having the most important position in the NFL for the long term over the cap projects The Rams at $30 million in effective cap space this year, which ranks them just inside the top 10 at number nine in projected cap space for the coming league year. That's cool and all. Derek, do you know how much cap space they're projected to have in 2027?
- [45:25]
Derek Classet
No.
- [45:26]
Dave Hellman
Late on me, like pushing up toward $180 million.
- [45:33]
Derek Classet
That's the benefit of having a young defense that's already this good.
- [45:37]
Dave Hellman
There's no real money invested in this team outside of the 38 year old quarterback and the 34 year old receiver like Alaric Jackson's on a pretty big deal. They resigned Kyron Williams a little while ago. Kevin Dotson's on a fairly big deal. But, but after that you're talking about mid tier signings and rookie contracts like all the way down. The Rams have so much room to play with and, and, and it's so perfectly timed because there are a lot of big deals I would expect to get handed out soon. Puka Nakua is officially eligible for an extension. Kobe Turner, Byron Young, Steve Avila, all are coming up on contract eligibility and then he's not eligible right now. But I would go ahead and guess they're going to be earmarking money for Jared Verse. So that money is going to get spent. But the Rams are a little bit of a blank slate in a very, very good way. Like they can, they can load this roster up and finding a quarterback is easier said than done. But even outside of the Stafford thing, you could be in, in a very enviable situation for future quarterbacks who step into this roster in the near future.
- [46:49]
Derek Classet
And that's the other thing that like makes this like where they're at with the draft even better. Like you don't there's going to be some teams that their front is so good but maybe they really need to reload and they've got guys that are coming up on contracts or they're old and they've got to replace them. Every Rams front four guy or their pass rush is all like 26 and under and still already on contract. They don't, they don't have to worry about that. They can go and spend some of these picks on other luxury positions. And so, so again like this to me is something I really hope that they do. I know that like I'm this is going to be the most wishcasty thing that I say probably this entire segment and it's really the only draft take that I have so far. A guy like Sonny Styles playing behind this front. Like it could Change everything. Because it's not just that he's a great athlete. He's long.
- [47:35]
Dave Hellman
He.
- [47:36]
Derek Classet
When you watch. When I watch that Ohio State defense, the way that he communicates and gets people set is like, if you could implement that level of, like, communication and soundness and heart in the middle of that defense, behind that front. Holy shit, man. This defense could be incredible. Like, they need to spend on those positions so they can do that.
- [47:56]
Dave Hellman
You're speaking my language right now. Okay, Let. Let's stick on that vein. And I mean, Sonny Styles is incredible. We'll get you on.
- [48:03]
Derek Classet
Unbelievable.
- [48:03]
Dave Hellman
Building the beast to. To gush about Sunny Styles, but. So here's the interesting thing about the. Where the Rams stand. You mentioned Rob Havenstein as a. As an upcoming free agent. Not to diminish him and what he's accomplished. The only remaining St. Louis Ram, by the way. So that's just a fun thing you have to bring up when you mentioned. When you mentioned Rob Havenstein. But the play of Warren McClendon makes that a little bit less of an emergency for me. Tyler Higby's headed for free agency. And then the big one that I really want to talk about, Cam Curl, Kobe Durant, Roger McCreary and Akela Witherspoon are all headed for free agency. Now, obviously, you can sit there and say, well, most of those guys need to be replaced. The Ram secondary is a big part of why they're not gearing up for the super bowl right now. But you do still have to do some work there. Like, you've got to enter into 2026 with a functional secondary. Do. Do any of those guys strike you as bring backs? Because I have at least one take that I want off.
- [49:09]
Derek Classet
I would love to keep Cam Curl. I love the way that he plays. I think he's an ass kicker. I think he's better even as a deep safety than I thought he was going to be when they signed him. Like, he. To me, I think that, like, safety room between him, the way that kinship has played at times this year as a young player, and then Quentin Lake being like your hybrid third safety, kind of a nickel, kind of a big linebacker. I like the middle of the secondary there. To me, the corners were tough, but, like, kind of to your point? Sure. We can say they probably need to replace Kobe Durant. They probably need to replace Darius Williams. You look at the free agent market, it's like, a lot of these guys are older or like, Jamel Dean is coming off a good year, right? But he's been on IR a lot over the last two years and he's creeping up on 30. And then your next best options are guys like Josh Jobe, who I think is solid but is really ideally like to me, like a cornerback too for most teams. And so I just. This, to me again, is like, to go back to the draft thing, they need to wield that draft capital on those positions that they don't normally target. Because like this is they're just set up so well to do it, even though if those are not swings that they would normally take.
- [50:14]
Dave Hellman
And that's how I landed on the idea of I think Cam Curl is a good shout. Depending on price, I'd be happy to bring back Kobe Durant, and I feel like people are going to roll their eyes at me if they watch the playoffs because it was a rough final three or four weeks for the Rams secondary and for Kobe Durant. But, but I'm trying to create a situation where Kobe Durant is my CB2. And if that's the case, I can, I can live with that. Like, that doesn't bother me at all. And I think so if you bring him back, if you bring Curl back, you know, I think those deals would be relatively affordable. You can cut Darius Williams and save 7.5 million against the cap and make this more palatable. Emmanuel Forbes is under contract for another year, so you've got that in your back pocket too. Because the alternative, like you said, I mean, Jamel Dean, how, how, how about Reek Woolen? Would that strike your fancy after Sunday night to try to bring RE Qualen to the LA Rams?
- [51:16]
Derek Classet
So that would be cool. I would also. If Seattle lets him walk, they would be crazy.
- [51:22]
Dave Hellman
So.
- [51:22]
Derek Classet
But, but if he's on the open market, I would be paying the money to do it. Absolutely.
- [51:26]
Dave Hellman
The only other ideas I came up with were Rasool Douglas is coming off a nice year in Miami. He's turning 31 this year. Or you could try to make a buy low, sell high, gamble on Trayvon Diggs and hope that time removed from injury combined with Rams culture gets you a little bit of bang for your buck. But I don't, I don't necessarily love those options. A whole hell of a lot more than just keeping my own and trying to draft to upgrade the talent there.
- [51:58]
Derek Classet
That's what I want to do. Because again, this is a team that has almost never seriously invested in Corner, really since the Jalen Ramsey trade and even then he was more of a nickel for them. They have really not invested in outside Corner and So many times it's led them to this same spot where the front is cool, maybe the safeties are cool, maybe the defense is called well and you just cannot cover people like that is just no way to live in the NFL. And I think at a certain point they need to have a little bit of like a come to Jesus moment and try to get a serious outside corner. And so again, one of those first two, one of those two first round picks, to me, if the right guy is there should be a corner.
- [52:35]
Dave Hellman
So I think it, it should line up relatively well. They have the 13th overall pick thanks to the James Peard with the J. Thanks to the James Pierce trade with the Falcons. Mansour Delane is a name that I think Rams fans should know. He's arguably the best corner in the draft. The only question is, does the importance of the position push him too high for your pick? Then I think you would probably have to look at the two Tennessee cornerbacks, Jermad McCoy and Colton Hood. Avion Terrell out of CLE Clemson. Like there should be a guy available to you at number 13. I would also push really hard for Caleb Downs in this spot. The only thing that gives me pause is that the Rams just signed Quentin Lake to fill a similar role. You know, so I, I don't know if you can find room for both of them, but I'd be willing to try. Cause I mean Caleb Downs is going to be this year's Kyle Hamilton. Like if you're not not caught up on the draft process yet and you're just getting your feet wet with the prospects, Caleb Downs is that dude. And so I think a lot of defenses are going to be eager to try to join the cutting edge by drafting Caleb Downs.
- [53:49]
Derek Classet
That almost does seem like a glutton of safeties. But he at least in I haven't studied him specifically but in watching styles, some of the plays that Caleb Downs is making it that's. He seems like one of those prospects that, that it doesn't really matter who you have there on the roster right now. He's probably worth considering. And so if I was the Rams, it might be fun.
- [54:10]
Dave Hellman
That actually brings me to another point I wanted to make. It's the same thing for the Broncos as of right now. If we're looking for potential problem spots again we're recording this late Monday afternoon. Several big name Rams assistants are still up for various jobs and that includes Chris Shula, although. So it's starting to feel like the Rams might be able to hang on to Chris Shula. And I started feeling that way Saturday when the Pittsburgh Steelers announced that they were hiring Mike McCarthy. We'll talk about that in a minute. But for the purposes of this, all of a sudden, you look around, the Giants, the Dolphins and the Steelers have all filled their jobs. Those are three jobs he was linked to. He reportedly turned down a chance to interview with the Browns. And so now I'm sitting here like, unless the Buffalo Bills want Chris Shula, or I guess potentially the Raiders, if they don't hire Clint Kubiak, I'm sitting here thinking, oh, man, we could, we could keep Chris Shula, and I do not give a shit how bad the Rams defense looked in the playoffs. I would be very, very happy to retain Chris Shula and try to upgrade the back end. Like, I'm, I'm not out on Chris Shula at all, despite what the playoffs looked like.
- [55:22]
Derek Classet
No, me neither. That, to me was just like, you run into the best teams for a gauntlet in the playoffs, at a certain point, you're probably going to be out talented. And in the back end, they absolutely were. But I still think Chris Shula is a really good play caller. His vision for the defense makes sense. So, yeah, again, if you, if he doesn't get hired away in the next two weeks, I'm pushing even harder to get Stafford back. Man. Like, if we could really run it back with everybody, like, why would we not? Like, I think that that would be incredibly exciting. Like, it almost seems if a Rams, if a Ram staffer gets hired away, it's not going to be him, it's going to be one of the offensive guys.
- [55:57]
Dave Hellman
I was going to say that's the other thing. Our wonderful colleague Diana Rossini reported Monday that the, the Browns flew out to LA to try to lock in with Nate Shieldhouse, their passing game coordinator. And offensive coordinator Mike LaFleur is a candidate on Arizona's short list. So. So that's all we have to go on right now, I would imagine. I mean, like, one of those three guys is going to be gone in 2026. Like, that just feels like a law of averages type of thing. But you're right. If you manage to hold on to everybody now we're, we're just making Stafford ungodly offers. Like, are you really going to walk away from all of this? Like, the chance to bring all of this back for one more go around? I don't think so.
- [56:41]
Derek Classet
There's no way.
- [56:44]
Dave Hellman
One. Okay. A couple other things I wanted to hit on and that's. I mentioned it. There's two guys on this team making an ungodly amount of money. Devonte Adams just turned 33 and finished with his lowest reception and yardage totals since 2015. He did lead the league in touchdowns 14 on the year. Is that enough to run it back with Devonte? I think you could free up 14 to 18 million dollars by moving on from him. And I guess that's if Stafford were to retire. Maybe this changes my answer, but A Devonte Adams even now is still a hell of a player and B, I almost feel like that is a package deal. Like if Matthew Stafford comes back, I assume he's going to want Devonte Adams on the roster.
- [57:31]
Derek Classet
I'm in the same boat, like especially if Stafford comes back, like I absolutely want Devonte Adams back. And I would, like you said, I would assume part of the swaying Matthew Stafford to come back is the idea that Devonte Adams, Adams will also be back. And so again he's not the same player that he was two, three years ago. And I think we even saw actually he was great in the playoff game. But I think for the handful of games before that you could see any little nagging injury he had was a little bit of an issue for him because he's a little bit older now and I think he isn't quite as explosive as he used to be. But when you have Pukinakua already being the star of the offense, you have a good running game, you have a quarterback who can make these throws to other guys like like they really did just need Devonte Adams to be their like key in the red zone and really unlock some of that one on one ball and then every now and then give you a chunk play over the middle and that's what he was. And so unless he fully 100% hits the cliff next year, like he's going to be back and he's going to be a very effective player for them. And so I would still want to add like maybe another guy in the third, fourth round or whatever in the draft to try to supplement and start build something behind him. But I don't think you need to, to replace Devonte Adams. I'd rather just have him there.
- [58:41]
Dave Hellman
There's a lot of pressure that comes with being a Super bowl or bus team, but there's also a lot of clarity because if, if we're a young team trying to build for the future, it's like, okay, like do we need to spend $18 million on the 34 year old receiver? Is, is this good for our long term outlook and Our long term cap health. When you're pushing to try to win a chip for a 38 year old quarterback, it's like what the are you talking about? Of course devonte Adams is on this team.
- [59:08]
Derek Classet
So that's kind of the credit card baby.
- [59:11]
Dave Hellman
Yeah, that's, that's where I fall on it. And I do, I do think that's a valid point.
- [59:15]
Derek Classet
It's.
- [59:16]
Dave Hellman
It, it starts not to matter, especially when you discover 13 personnel and lean into this multiple tight end world that the Rams were in over the second half of the season. But they paid two two Atwell $10 million to catch six passes this year. And Kanata Mumfield had a very nice rookie season and I was very impressed at the trust that they put in him as a day three rookie. On an offense with all of these highly paid, highly successful, highly famous players, I still think you could stand to upgrade that. And maybe, maybe it's a first round pick that feels kind of over the top, but hey, who knows? But at the very least I think that's something where you could try to address the depth and the youth of your receiver room.
- [60:02]
Derek Classet
But that actually is a really great point though about the 13 personnel stuff. And with just how much they run the ball like this is not devonte Adams having to be in an offense where they're throwing 700 times like they're going to be able to give him rest and kind of work him out like he doesn't need to be the workhorse that he was like three, four years ago.
- [60:20]
Dave Hellman
So how, how, how deep are you into looking at any draft prospects?
- [60:27]
Derek Classet
Just barely. I've only started with of course linebackers because I'm a, I'm a little bit of a caricature of. And I've only like seen three or four of those guys, which I will say this linebacker class looks awesome. Like these guys kick ass, man. And so that's really all I've started with, but it's a good start.
- [60:44]
Dave Hellman
The linebackers are fun. I'll be interested to see how that ages from, from that perspective where you look at it. And I looked at this and said to myself, Nate Landman and Omar Spates is probably good enough considering how the Rams value linebackers and if they upgrade the talent on the back end. But it would be really fun if they bucked that conventional thinking and just threw a first round pick at, yeah, Sonny Stiles or C.J. allen. I mean there's no shortage of really fun linebackers that you could plug into this thing that would supercharge It. I think I'd have to see it to believe it, but I would be very okay with it.
- [61:26]
Derek Classet
I would definitely have to see it to believe it, too. Like Dave, linebacker and corner. Like I said, they just have never really invested there. I mean, they let. They. They had a good one in Ernest Jones and they were just like, you can go. And I know that he had some injury problems, but they were just like, you can go. Like, it's crazy that they just don't really invest in that position. But again, people can change. Front offices can change. I would like to see a player like Sonny Styles behind this front.
- [61:49]
Dave Hellman
The reason I initially asked you is because of the toxic take that I'm currently gestating heading into the draft cycle, which is the rams have discovered 13 personnel. I know Davis Allen had a nice year, but Tyler Higby is a free agent and the rams have the 13th overall pick. We know they like Brock Bowers a couple of years ago, and I'm just like, ooh, what if they wanted to draft Kenyan Sadiq, the star tight end coming out of Oregon and like, supercharged the hell out of 13 personnel? It feels completely superfluous and unnecessary. And they just spent a big pick on an Oregon tight end last year, but it would get me pretty excited, even if I don't think it's totally necessary.
- [62:39]
Derek Classet
That's one of those, dude. If you're telling me that you could give Sean McVeigh a new shiny toy for this and do this thing on offense that nobody else is really doing, sign me up. I don't care if it's a dumb idea and you're not supposed to take tight ends in the top 15. Whatever it is, I don't care. I don't care. Care.
- [62:52]
Dave Hellman
The like Sean McVeigh trying to resist the devil on his shoulder because the Rams could very much be in a scenario thanks to having this 13th overall pick where you've got a very good DB or linebacker sitting there available to you, but also potentially the top tight end in the draft or one of the best receivers in the draft. I saw Daniel Jeremiah mocked Mai Lemon to the Rams in a in a mock draft this morning, which. Go watch. Go watch that guy play Derek and tell me you don't want to see what Sean McVeigh could do with Makai Lemon and his offense. So I love the idea of the Rams trying to be responsible and beef up their defense while sitting in a draft range where they could draft a lot of very shiny toys for Sean McVeigh.
- [63:41]
Derek Classet
But isn't that the value of having two first round picks, you know, if you really want to mess around a little bit with one of them and then eat your vegetables with the other.
- [63:49]
Dave Hellman
You're so right. They currently own eight draft picks. The headliners that they have two in the first round, but they've also got. They lost a fourth last year in a, in a draft day trade. One thing I just, I wanted to mention. Cause I think it's fun. So they did the trade with Tennessee at the deadline to get Roger McCreary, and the compensation in that trade was just giving back what they gave each other in the Ernest Jones trade. Like, they did those, they did that trade in 2024, and then a year later they were like, all right, you just want to give us back that five and we'll give you back that six and call it a day. Like, that's basically what happened. So everybody wound up with their original stuff, swapping two players, which I think is really fun. And yeah, I think they're. They're expected to get a comp pick or two. So, I mean, it's, it is a full draft class headlined by two first round picks. And the only question for me is, are you gearing up for one last shot with Matthew Stafford or do you have to pivot? And could this be a team that's interested in somebody like Ty Simpson? Or are we looking at the Rams evaluating guys like Drew Aller and Garrett Nussmeier as like day two quarterbacks with, with high upside? And I just, I'll just be honest. I don't want to live in that world. I want, I want one more year of the Rams pushing to get this thing over the hump. I think everybody but, but NFC west rival fans wants that. It's just better for football, in my opinion.
- [65:21]
Derek Classet
It's way better. And that's where I'll end. I think this is. I'm going to operate under the assumption that Stafford's coming back. Maybe that's reckless, maybe that's wrong. That's just the world I want to live in. And if I live in that world, the Rams have plenty of resources to be the best team in football again, like, to be that caliber of team. So that's the world I'm living in until they, they show me that that's not where we're at.
- [65:43]
Dave Hellman
That's what existential dread's all about. I'm just going to hand wave the stuff that makes me uncomfortable until I'm forced to confront it. And that's what I'm going to do with the LA Rams. They're probably going to do the same thing like, hey Matthew, take three weeks and let us know and we'll try. We'll try not to think about it too hard until then. All right, we're going to take one more break and then real quickly we're going to catch up on some coaching news before we're out of here.
- [66:08]
Derek Classet
Year.
- [66:12]
TurboTax Expert Advertiser
It'S that time of year again for taxes. We all know the stress of the old way of filing. You send your documents off and then absolute radio silence. You're stuck refreshing your inbox and sending awkward just checking in texts, wondering if they've even started. But with TurboTax Expert full service I know my TurboTax Expert takes taxes fully off my plate and updates me every step of the way so I don't have to have to worry. That way I can get back to the things that matter to me, like going on vacation in the spring or enjoying the NFL off season. So stop chasing updates. It's time to switch to the modern tax filing Solution with Intuit TurboTax. The best part? You can get Experts progress right on your phone while you go about your day. So go for a run or grab a coffee. You'll know your dedicated expert is handling it, looking for every last deduction to get you the best possible possible outcome and every dollar you deserve. File with confidence. Visit turbotax.com Only available with TurboTax Full Service Experts Real time updates only in iOS mobile app.
- [67:15]
Quo Business Phone Advertiser
Are you still running your business with one creaky old phone system? Missing calls, losing track of messages, and scrambling to keep up with your team? It's time to break up with the past and say hello to Quo. Kuo is the number one business phone system with 4.7 stars across 3000 reviews on G2. Kuo brings all your business phone calls and texts into one app for your team. No more juggling devices or being tied to a landline. Quo's built in AI, logs calls, creates summaries, automates follow ups, and can even answer and route calls so you never miss an opportunity. Whether you're a solo operator or leading a growing team, Quo keeps you connected and helps you deliver standout customer experiences. Join over 90,000 businesses using Quo and see why it's the one business phone system for customer satisfaction. Level up your workflow with quo. Get started free plus get 20% off your first six months at quo.com business that's quo spelled Q-U-O.com business and if you have existing numbers with another service quo will port them over for free. No missed calls, no missed customers.
- [68:25]
Grow Therapy / Pura / Stamps.com Advertiser
Shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing. You're managing all the things, so why waste time sending important documents the old fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want, how you want with stamps.com print postage on demand 24. 7 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90% with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1. 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk free for 60 days.
- [68:59]
Dave Hellman
All right, Derek, couple coaching things we wanted to hit. I alluded to it earlier in the show. We debated doing an emergency pod on Saturday because it it felt emergency worthy. When the Pittsburgh Steelers announced on Saturday that they were hiring Mike McCarthy, which, you know, it's funny, the, the common logic was that the Steelers are going to zig when everybody expects them to zag. And Mike Tomlin was a 35 year old unproven assistant and Bill Cower was the same. And so we expected them to do completely something completely unexpected. And we're still surprised when that's exactly what they did. Because even though he's from Pittsburgh, I just, I never saw the Steelers basically opting for another Mike Tomlin because that's what I think Mike McCarthy is, is a very similar hire to what they already had. And I was expecting outside the box. And so to get something so inside the box still managed to be very surprising, even though it was a very famous coach getting the job.
- [70:07]
Derek Classet
I don't want to hear it from anybody. Like when you fire Mike Tomlin, this is what you're asking for is to get, is to land in a spot where you feel like your best option is Mike McCarthy. And so here's, here's kind of my process with it. I Mike McCarthy is 63 years old. I think what we saw from him in Dallas was at times okay, but I think the offense this year without Mike McCarthy under Brian Schottenheimer was better. And again, I know they added George Pickens and that's part of it too. But like the run game was better, the offensive line was better. I thought the overall plan and cohesion was more modern and it was just a better offense. And so I think that there's that element of it. But so much of the justification in people's minds before Tomlin got fired was that they just kind of need to go out into the wilderness for a little bit. They need to be bad. They need to just like not be a team that is consistently competitive. I think because McCarthy has done this before, there's some level of like, I don't think this team will fully bottom out, which is maybe what they needed. But I really do not think that they're going to reach quite the heights that, that they were able to reach, like really scraping nine and 10 wins out of this roster with Mike Tomlin, especially now that the defense is getting much older and going to continue to be very expensive. So, like, this to me feels like I know that they gave him a five year contract. This to me feels like a deal that by the end of year three, they've won a combined like 20 games and they really haven't accomplished a whole lot. They finally scrounged together a couple of, of a couple of picks that are in the top 12 and they've started to reload the roster and they're ready for whoever's next. And so if the whole thing of like firing Tomlin is we take this little reset period and we go on to the next guy, I don't, I feel like they'll end up accomplishing that with the Mike McCarthy hire in like a roundabout way.
- [71:55]
Dave Hellman
Doesn't that feel so uninspiring?
- [71:58]
Derek Classet
It feels extremely uninspiring. But like, I, again, I think when people wanted Tomlin gone, like they wanted this. And so I think it's going to look bad, it's going to feel bad and like, like it's. Again, I don't think they're going to bottom out and just be like, suddenly the worst team in the league or anything. But like, I think they're going to be a team that fights between six and eight wins every year instead of eight to 10 or 11. And I think that'll probably run dry after like three years. And maybe along that process you find a quarterback that like, maybe Mike McCarthy can help develop a little bit. But just like the rest of the roster doesn't feel like you want to continue to see out this five year contract like this. To me, like, if I'm playing out the story in my head of what I think, I think this is going to look like. It's, that's probably where we arrive.
- [72:40]
Dave Hellman
Here's where I land with Mike McCarthy and I covered him for three years in Dallas. I, I respect what he's accomplished in the NFL and I will, I'll go to bat for the idea that he is a much better head coach and has a much better track record than a lot of people want to give him credit for. Like, it's, it's strange to me that he is a punchline considering everything that he's accomplished. I mean, 180 wins in the NFL, a Super Bowl. He won 12 games three consecutive years with the Cowboys, which obviously those seasons fell woefully short in the post season. But given the Cowboys recent history before Mike McCarthy, consecutive winning seasons was a. A big step for an organization that couldn't string together consecutive good seasons to save its life. So I respect a lot of what Mike McCarthy is about and has done. My thing is Mike McCarthy feels like a guy for the Giants or the Tennessee Titans, where being a competent organization has gotten away from you a little bit and you need somebody to come in there and lay a ground floor and an expectation of this is what a successful NFL program looks like. This is what it's like to win games. This is what we expect of you. The Steelers were already there. The Steelers already did all this like their rosters loaded with guys that have been to the playoffs most of the last four or five years. And the whole point was getting to something new and refreshing. And I don't really buy that at this point in his career. Mike McCarthy is going to give you something different than what we were already watching with Mike Tomlin. And honestly, I think it's kind of ironic. The whole thing with the Steelers is once they get to the playoffs, they look like they don't belong. And Mike McCarthy's Dallas teams fell on their faces by and large in the postseason. I mean, the lingering impression that McCarthy left with the Cowboys was that beat down that the packers put on them when they were the 2 seed in the 2023 playoffs. And I guess you can never rule anything out for sure. But. But it's hard to imagine at 62 that he is going to bring something that is tangibly better than what we were already watching the Steelers do. Especially when you consider the quarterback situation and the fact that you're talking about either restarting with another young guy or wooing Aaron Rodgers back, which I don't know if McCarthy being there is an attraction or a deterrent at this point in that relationship. But. But it just doesn't feel like the ceiling is a whole lot higher than what we've already spent the last few years watching.
- [75:36]
Derek Classet
It doesn't like firing Tomlin to go with McCarthy, who kind of just feels like an offensive version of what Tomlin is. But again, like I'm probably in the same boat where I think he's some amount of diminished version of what Tomlin offers you in terms of being like the CEO, everybody's going to kind of be on the same page and everybody's going to be put together. And then, then I think if there was some other rationalization for having let Tomlin go, it was like, regardless of how good Tomlin is, we just need new ideas, we need a fresh set of eyes in here. All that stuff I could get that. I just don't get that person being somebody who's 62, 63 years old and like probably towards the end of their coaching career, like that part of it also doesn't make sense to me. Like that to me should have been again, somebody who was a little bit younger, maybe potentially. Like, I just, there's really no beat of this. That makes a whole lot of sense for me in terms of the Steelers realizing a ceiling that they didn't have before under Tomlin.
- [76:32]
Dave Hellman
If I was looking for copium and I think you kind of touched on it and that's where I would go. I think, I think a fair amount of the hype that McCarthy gets for developing quarterbacks is a little bit overstated. You know, like in the wake of this news, you saw a lot of people plugging the fact that he developed Aaron Rodgers and Dak Prescott. I feel like that's a little overstated. Dak Prescott was a 5,000 yard quarterback before Mike McCarthy ever took the Cowboys job, but he still has a track record of working with quarterbacks and getting good results out of quarterbacks. Like that is fair to say. So if Mike McCarthy takes this job in his hometown and doesn't embarrass the Steelers while helping them find and identify a young quarterback and turn the roster over and you move away from some of the veteran players on, on your team, like a Cam Hayward, like potentially maybe a TJ Watt. I mean, how does Mike McCarthy's presence affect what the future may hold there? And if he helps you identify and develop a quarterback that the next coach can work with in three years, maybe this could be okay. Like that would be my generous interpretation of this. Cause I do think at the end of the day I would, I'd be surprised if this was a Pete Carroll situation where it just completely falls apart. Like I think Mike McCarthy can maintain the Steelers aura of being a competent winning for the most part organization. Now whether that should be the Steelers Steelers priority is a different question, but I do think he's capable of doing that.
- [78:18]
Derek Classet
I agree. I don't think this is going to fall apart nearly to the same degree that like the Pete Carroll thing in Vegas. And if for two reasons. One, he's a little bit younger, and I just don't think that he's going to have some of the issues in terms of putting together the coaching staff the way that Pete Carroll did with like, you know, one of his sons being the offensive line coach. And then Chip Kelly, like, kind of seemed like a weird situation there with him being the offensive play caller. I just. Those parts of it I don't think are going to be an issue with McCarthy. And then also, even if there's issues with the Steelers roster, it's not nearly as bad of a roster as Las Vegas this was. And so it shouldn't bottom out to that degree. And so I just, again, this to me is. I'm not sure what the ceiling is, but to your point, like, the sell is that at some point over the next two years, if he can draft the quarterback and you get some amount of faith that that guy can be an average, like above average to like Pro bowl level starter for you, with or without McCarthy, that is probably a win for whatever this regime is going to look like.
- [79:11]
Dave Hellman
Like, it's funny to think, and I don't know this, maybe the Steelers really were locked on McCarthy this entire time, but the Steelers are renowned for their patience and their process and the way that they do these things. And maybe you hire Mike McCarthy just to get it out of the way and don't wind up in a situation where you're waiting two more weeks to hire a head coach. But to hire McCarthy on Saturday and then on Monday have Chris Shula, Nate Shieldhouse, Davis Webb, Vance Joseph, even, like all of those guys available to you, I don't know, I feel like at the bare minimum, you could have waited 48 more hours because I don't get the impression McCarthy was getting another job like the Giants and Titans jobs were filled already anyway. I think, I think you could have waited and talked to a few more guys before you pulled the trigger on this, but maybe the Steelers were just that convicted.
- [80:08]
Derek Classet
I guess that's a good point. I don't know who else they were scared of taking McCarthy as the job. Like Arizona seems like a weird fit, like, I guess Buffalo, but I don't know if I would have seen that either.
- [80:17]
Dave Hellman
I think I'm comfortable making that risk and saying, all right, let's see who we can talk to on Monday. And if we lose Mike, we lose Mike. But that is, that's not the way they went. The other big news, actually, in that division as well. I think we all guessed that this would happen and had an idea it would happen. But the Baltimore Ravens made it official with Jesse Menor. They hire the Chargers defensive coordinator to be their next head coach. There's no guaranteeing it's going to work, but you hire a guy that shares that much DNA with Mike McDonald after letting Mike McDonald leave the building. I completely understand the thought process here, and I will gladly take my chances that mentor can achieve similar results with the. The talent and the infrastructure on that Baltimore roster.
- [81:05]
Derek Classet
Well, and so this is what I was talking about with like the Steelers thing of like, part of why maybe you would fire Tomlin is like, Tomlin's still a good coach, but maybe we just need like a fresh set of eyes, just a different guy kind of running the ship. Even if it's a little bit of shared DNA. That, to me is exactly what's happening with Baltimore. Like John Harbaugh still a good coach, but it just felt like they'd maybe run out of road with what that had been. It had played out for almost two decades. Let's get a fresh set of eyes. But I think this is an organization that has always kind of tried to abide by a lot of the same systems and structures. And Minter, having been familiar with both of the Harbaughs, obviously coached in Michigan. He was in Baltimore for a while as an assistant. He has some of that shared DNA, knows how the organization wants to run. But then we've also seen him calling plays on his own at the NFL level, obviously with the Chargers. And I think he's done a fantastic job. Like when he, he took over the defense at first in 2024, they had a couple of their issues, right. Like they, I thought they were a little bit bland with some of their pressures at times, just in terms of some of the coverages they were throwing on the back end. I think they were up and down in their ability to maybe defend the run out of some of the looks that they wanted. Given that they are more of a too high defense. I thought this year all that stuff looked better. Like, I thought the linebacker play, like what they got out of like Denzel Perryman at his age. And this year I thought was. Was pretty incredible. The front looked better than it had ever been. You saw development from young players like Tui Polotu, which I thought was really impressive. It just felt like his vision had really coalesced as a play caller. And so if we can bring back some of that, which I think what we saw with some of the drop off from like the 2023 Peak Ravens when McDonald was there is like you had this elite incredible defense and then you just had MVP Lamar Jackson. On the other side you had this complete team because of that. I think they lost a little bit of that this year because they, they just, you know, Zach Orr I think is a fine play caller but just I don't think was up to that level. If they can get back to being a top seven eight defense in terms of the structure and how it's called with a guy like Minter and then you still have Lamar Jackson, like hopefully a healthier version of Lamar on the other side. This is going to be one of the favorites in the AFC again. Like I know it's not a perfect roster, but they will absolutely be one of those teams. Again.
- [83:18]
Dave Hellman
We've talked about this over the last week or so with Robert and I hear you where like having a Josh Allen or a Lamar Jackson I think gives you a margin of error with your hire. I still want to see who Jesse Mentor hires to call his offense because and to be fair, Mike McDonald did not have Lamar Jackson when he got to Seattle, but he had to make a change at OC after one year because it just wasn't working as smoothly or as well as they wanted it to. And he landed on a great hire in Clint Kubiak. So the margin for error is, is bigger with Lamar Jackson. But I still want that to be a really good hire and I'm just curious to see how it goes because on. On the defensive side of the ball I just, I don't really have that many questions. Like again with, with what he's done on his own and what he has in common with what the Ravens have already done. I don't have a lot of questions about how well that's going to work. But even Lamar Jackson can benefit from good coaching and good play calling. So that's just the one question that.
- [84:22]
Derek Classet
I have and I think that's fair. Like we all, before he got signed to, funny enough, the Chargers. I think a lot of people wanted Mike McDaniel to end up there, which I think obviously would have been incredibly fun. I got to say though, like I the play calling is going to be important. I'm more curious to see how they fix the offensive line and like get, get that back to being like a real ass kicking unit. That to me is where I think this thing can go from the offense. Feeling like Lamar Jackson can be an MVP again to me it's not like the play calling will matter, but like if that offensive line gets back to where it should be. That that to me is a little bit more important.
- [84:56]
Dave Hellman
We'll see how it goes. I mean, the news is flying fast and furious. Mike McDaniel withdrew from the Buffalo conversation. He is officially the Chargers offensive coordinator. The packers hired Jonathan Gannon to replace Jeff Halfley. The Cowboys hired Christian Parker as their defensive coordinator. John Harbaugh tap Denard Wilson, formerly of the Titans, to be his D.C. that's just a few of the moves and the dominoes are going to keep falling. So we'll just, we'll reserve that for a later conversation once the smoke is a little bit clearer. But until then, that's all we got. We appreciate it so much. We have so much content coming yalls way. The draft cycle is starting to gear up, so Dane and I have you covered on Building the Beast. I think we got a mailbag with Robert coming later this week, Derek, and then we're off to Santa Clara for Super Bowl 60. Man, I cannot wait and we will talk to you all real soon. We appreciate it.
- [86:08]
Grow Therapy / Pura / Stamps.com Advertiser
Have you ever wanted to take back control of your online privacy and personal information, but didn't know where to start? The solution is mysudo. Mysudo is a privacy and identity app that lets you create multiple digital profiles called Sudo's. Each Sudo comes with its own phone number, email, inbox, private browser and virtual card. So instead of sharing your personal information, you can share Sudo details. Download mysudo today. That's my S U D o and start taking back control of your online privacy.
- [86:36]
Derek Classet
Par le tu francais hablas espanol? Parle italiano? If you've used Babbel, you would Babbel's conversation based technique teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acast spelled B-A B B E L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply.
- [87:16]
Grow Therapy / Pura / Stamps.com Advertiser
The youth mental health crisis is growing and social media is a major driver. Kids are spending up to nine hours a day on screens, often unsupervised, and studies show a direct link to anxiety, depression and even suicidal thoughts. That's where Gab comes in. Gab offers safe phones and watches with no Internet or social media, just the right tech at the right time. From smart watches for young to advanced parent managed phones for teens, Gab keeps kids connected safely. Visit gab.com getgab and use code getgab for a special offer. That's G-A-B-B.com getgab Gab Tech in steps independence for them, peace of mind for parents.