Which outliers in the 2026 class are worth drafting?

Summary

The Athletic Football Show (March 27, 2026)

Episode: Which outliers in the 2026 class are worth drafting?

Hosts: Robert Mays, Derek Klassen, Dane Brugler, Dave Helman

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Main Theme

This episode dives deep into the 2026 NFL Draft, focusing on the unusually high number of outlier prospects in the class. The hosts explore the reasons behind these outliers, the compromises teams will have to make at the top of the draft, and which players are worth drafting despite breaking traditional molds—either in terms of position, size, athletic testing, or overall profile.

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1. Setting the Stage: Is This a "Bad Draft"?

The "Bad Draft" Debate (01:27–08:31)

• Robert opens by questioning whether analysts are rationalizing the quality of a weak draft, asking:
  "Are we just rationalizing the fact that this is a really bad draft and are we trying to talk about it in a way that keeps ourselves interested but in reality is just a really bad draft?" (02:58, Robert Mays)
• Dane responds with optimism:
  "I'm a firm believer there's no such thing as a bad draft. There are good players." (04:18, Dane Brugler)
• Derek expresses more skepticism, suggesting there are fewer All-Pro caliber prospects than usual.
• Dane counters with examples from the "universally panned" 2013 NFL Draft, listing stars who still emerged.
• Key point: The issue isn't an absence of talent, but more outliers and a "leaner" top tier—forcing teams to make riskier decisions at the top.

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2. Why Are There So Many Outliers?

Outliers, Positionally and Athletically (08:31–11:54)

• Robert frames the 2026 draft class as loaded with outliers not just at niche positions (like RB or off-ball LB) but at premium positions—edges, tackles, receivers—where prototypes usually dominate.
• Derek details the lack of "clean" or prototypical top-10 players at the premium positions, outside of Carnell Tate at WR.

"There's just no prototypes at those positions in a way that there usually are a couple in… the top 10." (11:21, Derek Klassen)

• The necessity to "compromise" and draft outside typical norms is a defining feature of this year.

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3. Deep Dives: Which Outliers Are Worth Compromising For?

A. Reuben Bain, EDGE, Miami

The Arm Length Outlier (12:20–19:59)

• Bain, projected as a potential #2 pick (per Trevor Sikkema), has historically short arms—sixth shortest in the Mockdraftable database for edge rushers since 2000.
• Dane lauds Bain's tape:
  "If there was tape I'd be willing to bet on being the outlier, it's probably Reuben Bain." (12:56, Dane Brugler)
• Derek: Not concerned about Bain's measurables because of his unique play style—"short, squatty, powerful…not typically the type of guy that goes in the top five, but again, it’s kind of a weird class." (13:55, Derek Klassen)
• Robert provides context:
  "...there are teams that have, like, real serious questions about him. And I think a lot of that doubt is rooted in this idea of, well, he doesn’t look like a top five pick." (16:01, Robert Mays)
• The consensus: Teams must decide if Bain's production and film outweigh his unprecedented physical profile.

Notable quotes:

• "He would be the shortest armed defensive end taken in the first round, definitely…going back to 1999." (12:20, Dane Brugler)
• "I watch Ruben Bane and that to me is like in a normal class, probably a top-10 player. And then in this class...I'm totally fine taking him at 2." (14:18, Derek Klassen)

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B. Spencer Fano, OT, Utah

The Undersized, Athletic Tackle (25:36–31:42)

• Robert is "enamored" with Fano’s movement skills and contact balance (25:39), yet notes his arms (just under 33 inches) and overall frame are underwhelming for a projected top-10 tackle.
• Derek is confident Fano will be a good lineman, but not necessarily at tackle, worrying that "the frame is a little bit skinny."
• Dane points out that even the top "undersized" tackles taken high previously were usually late first/early second round picks—never this high (30:50).
• The group wonders: If he's really a better fit at center or guard, can you justify a top-10 pick?
• Positional value and the risk–reward calculus further complicate Fano’s evaluation (see detailed section below).

Notable quotes:

• "Spencer Fano is up to 80 and a quarter [inch wingspan]. So…yeah, it's like three [inches] longer [than Campbell]; it's bigger." (28:35, Dane Brugler)
• "If he's up for it, I think he would be a phenomenal center. But…centers don't go top-12 in the draft. That just doesn't happen." (31:06, Derek Klassen)

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C. Makai Lemon, WR, USC

The "Not Quite" Size/Speed/Role Prototype (40:28–51:13)

• Makai Lemon is 5'11", 192 lbs and, while not a huge size or athletic outlier, is unlike previous top-15 WR picks who are that size (Waddle, Olave, etc.)—all of whom ran sub-4.4 40s.
  • Lemon reportedly ran in the 4.5s.
• Derek: "For me at wide receiver, I'm like that's not a first round pick…that size…you're not in a league." (42:34)
• Dane and Robert counter: The league is evolving toward more condensed splits and zonal coverage, decreasing the penalty for slot-only types or those who can’t win outside traditionally.
• Lemon’s production (good, not elite), hands, and versatility are praised, but Derek questions if you ever want a player with this profile to be your WR1 if you’re drafting him high.

Notable quotes:

• "If you don't think Makai Lemon's a top-12 pick, I'm not gonna argue that hard with you." (47:26, Dane Brugler)
• "If Makai Lemon was drafted by the Rams with the 13th overall pick, would you be excited?" (51:05, Robert Mays)
• "In that offense [Rams], it seems like that’s the best world for him to be very successful." (51:32, Robert Mays)

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D. Caleb Downs, S, Ohio State

Safety Without Prototype Size or Production (53:25–61:38)

• Downs lacks the size, testing, or interception production usually seen in top-10 safeties (compared to Earl Thomas, Eric Berry, Minka Fitzpatrick, etc.).
• Dane, however, hammers home Downs’ intangibles, football IQ, and versatility:
  "You're not drafting Caleb Downs to play one position…he can do a little bit of everything…He's going to be one of the smartest players on your defense." (58:56)
• Derek: High school star, instant impact at elite college programs, tailor-made for the modern, two-high NFL where versatility and coverage skills are at a premium.
• They question whether that unique intelligence—and a high floor—should trump historic tendencies about elite safety athletic traits.

Notable quotes:

• "...He looks like a guy who is meant to be like a turnkey player for a modern NFL defense to me, even if the size isn't ideal." (59:53, Dane Brugler)
• "Assuming good health, the bad Caleb Downs is a guy that starts for you for five years and you let him walk in free agency. And like, if that's the bad version of this, I can live with that." (61:38, Dane Brugler)

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E. Additional Outliers & Considerations

Age Outliers — e.g., Akeem Mezador, EDGE Miami (62:21–64:24)

• Will be 25 on draft day—a rare and often problematic profile.
  "The history of players who are 25 and older by draft day is not very good." (62:22, Derek Klassen)
• Difficult to find successful comps; COVID eligibility effects are still lingering in this area.

Injury Outliers — e.g., Jermod McCoy, CB Tennessee (64:26–67:15)

• "One of the top cornerbacks in this draft is a guy who didn't play last year." (64:26, Dane Brugler)
• Elite sophomore tape but missed all of 2025 with an ACL tear; no workout numbers available yet.

The Constant Theme: Are We Rationalizing, or Adjusting to a New Normal?

• The episode returns repeatedly to “are we just squinting and talking ourselves into these outlier profiles because this is what this class gives us?” (67:15)
• Each prospect brings a set of questions about the type and degree of compromise they require—sometimes necessitated by an absence of traditional "clean" picks.

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4. The Teams' Dilemma: Positional Value vs. Player Certainty

Value Calculus (31:51; 34:41; recurring throughout)

• Teams are forced to balance:
  • The risk in betting on a true physical prototype who may be raw or unproven
  • The relative safety of “outlier” players with clear tape and production, despite red flags
  • The reality that, at non-premium positions (RB, LB, Center, Safety), even "hits" may not create the same value uplift on rookie deals
• Notable quote:
  "It’s not about on-field impact…if the market doesn’t reward those players that way, then they’re inherently less valuable." (34:41, Robert Mays)

"What alternative do you have?"

"If the solution to the problem isn't there, what do you do?" (34:55, Dane Brugler)

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5. Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Intro/Bad Draft Debate | 01:27–08:31 | | The "outlier" class (positional & physical) | 08:31–11:54 | | Reuben Bain deep dive | 12:20–19:59 | | Compromise calculus and “worth it?” question | 19:59–23:11 | | Spencer Fano discussion | 25:36–31:42 | | Positional value and risk-reward math | 31:51–37:44 | | Makai Lemon/Changing receiver archetypes | 40:28–51:32 | | Caleb Downs/Moving beyond athleticism | 53:25–61:38 | | Other outlier profiles (age, injury) | 62:21–67:15 |

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6. Notable Quotes & Moments

• "We're going to do an entire show…about this idea of positional outliers—where you draft them and why." (09:45, Robert Mays)
• "When I watch Reuben Bane…when are you worried about the arm length? …I am not worried about it whatsoever." (13:55, Derek Klassen)
• "If he's up for it, I think he would be a phenomenal center…But…centers don't go top-12 in the draft." (31:06, Derek Klassen)
• "I want to put good football players on my team. I don't really care how they win." (49:40, Dane Brugler)
• "If you draft Caleb Downs…assuming good health…the bad [outcome] is a guy that starts for you for five years and you let him walk in free agency. …If that's the bad version of this, I can live with that." (61:38, Dane Brugler)

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7. Summary Table: Four Main Outliers Discussed

| Player | Outlier Qualities | Concerns | Why Consider? | |-------------------|-----------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------| | Reuben Bain | Historically short arms at EDGE | No high-pick comp, “not a top-5 body” | Tape and production are elite; wins anyway | | Spencer Fano | Short arms, small frame for OT | Not clear he can stick at OT/top-end power | Movement skills, balance, technical polish | | Makai Lemon | Small, slow vs. historical top WRs | Not WR1/vertical threat; slot-only profile | Fits modern offenses; reliable, productive | | Caleb Downs | Lacks top-10 athleticism, size, INTs at S | No precedent for top-10 guy like this | Elite instincts, leadership, true multi-role |

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8. Takeaways

• The 2026 NFL Draft is shaping up to be a “thin at the top, wide in the middle” class, with numerous outliers likely to force teams into risky territory—often out of necessity, not preference.
• For each key player, there’s a debate not merely about the player’s quirks, but about how much “betting on outliers” is justified when safer, traditional prospects are in short supply.
• Overarching question: Is the class genuinely weak, or is the league evolving to change our standards for what “prototype” NFL players look like?
• In all cases, the critical question is "why are you compromising on this player, and are they worth it?"

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For fans and draft followers, this episode provides an honest, insightful exploration of the tension between traditional scouting, statistical/physical thresholds, and the realities of a uniquely challenging draft year.

Transcript

[Robert Mays]

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[Robert Mays]

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[Derek Lassen]

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[Dane Brugler]

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[Robert Mays]

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[Dane Brugler]

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[Robert Mays]

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[Dane Brugler]

You know what? I'm we didn't plan this out, but this was the last thing I was looking at before we started recording. And I'm glad. I'm glad we're starting here. Of course you're not guaranteed to find the best players at the top of the draft. There are some first rounds that are worse than others. I'm a firm believer there's no such thing as a bad draft There are good players.

[Robert Mays]

I totally disagree with that.

[Dane Brugler]

I know. I disagree.

[Robert Mays]

What is your. How do you. What does that mean?

[Dane Brugler]

It means that there are great players in any given draft.

[Robert Mays]

Okay, three or four great players in a draft of 250 players. That is still an objectively bad draft.

[Dane Brugler]

Not every draft is going to be 2011. Right.

[Robert Mays]

And some drafts are 2013. It does happen.

[Dane Brugler]

2013. I'm so glad you said it because this is what I was looking up. The 2013 NFL Draft, which is widely panned as being this just dog shit draft with no good players, gave us Lane Johnson, Deandre Hopkins, Corderell Patterson, Travis Frederick, Darius Slade, Travis Kelsey Levy, on Bell. Like the list goes on and on. Of course, it's not a star studded hit after hit after hit after hit draft, but the players are there. Like the, the great players are there. There will be great players drafted this year. You just gotta find them.

[Robert Mays]

Could this be worse than the 2013 draft? We use the 2013 draft as an example. That's like the worst one we can remember. Derek? I don't know. Is there an even Elaine Johnson in this draft?

[Derek Lassen]

I mean, I don't know. I think what I was going to say is like if you have to list Cordero Patterson as one of the like stars of the draft class, I

[Dane Brugler]

mean, I could go on and on. Tyron Armstead, Keenan Allen, Tyron Matthew. I'm scrolling down more. David Bakhtiari, Kyle Jus. Check. Like there are good players in every single draft. Some are going to be more loaded than others. I would guess this is a leaner draft, but I don't, I, I won't get on board with the concept that this is like a draft worth writing off because somebod amazing is waiting out there to be picked by somebody. Multiple, like a lot of good players are coming out in this draft.

[Robert Mays]

I'm not even planting a flag saying that. I think that I just. Again, as we kind of frame the conversation around this pool of players, I'm just wondering how much of this in your mind is us rationalizing the quality of it so we can continue to talk about it with some enthusiasm and, or just ignoring the reality that's sitting in front of us. How do you feel about this? Derek?

[Derek Lassen]

It's. So here's the thing. I think there are a lot of fun players in this class. Like I enjoy a lot of that.

[Robert Mays]

That's a curious.

[Derek Lassen]

That's the thing. That's the thing. There's. I think the edge class is fun. The wide receiver class is fun. How many guys do I think are like, I draft him and I expect him to be potentially a multi time all pro, which I think if you're picking in the top 10, that's what you want. I don't know, two, maybe three. Like that's really as far as I can get. And obviously in any draft class you're only going to really have like six or seven. But like when you're at half that number, it's. That's a lot. Draft classes are relative. Like, it's not. They're good. There are good players, but if it's worse than the last 10 classes, it's a bad draft class. And I don't know if that's necessarily true, but you get what I'm saying.

[Dane Brugler]

I just think it's bullshit to, to write off an entire draft class. And like, Dane and I have talked about this so many times on Building the Beast where we're just in this perpetual stage of like, ah, it won't be next year. Next year is where all the fun's really going to happen. And then you watch next year's prospects play out a season and you find reasons to dislike them and pick them. And who knows, maybe 2027 really will be this incredible boon. You know, like 2021 was a special draft class. 2011 was a really, really special draft class. There are years like that where you just throw a rock and hit a Hall of Fame player. That doesn't mean that there aren't good players this year. And even if the top 15 is less sexy than what you would prefer, I think that's fun because I think there's like no curve between pick 16 and pick like 50. Like, I think the caliber of player is very similar, like all the way through to the end of the second round. And I think there's good value on day three as well, which if you want to call that boring, you can. I think it's fun because I think it gives more teams more opportunities to find good players.

[Robert Mays]

Here's the reason that I wanted to start this show specifically on this note is that we're going to do a couple different shows over the next month or so where we look at this class and the makeup of this class and some of the peculiarities around it. And I think on multiple different levels, Derek, this is a class that is full of outliers, especially at the top when you compare it to other drafts. And maybe that is a better way to talk about this. I'm not trying to throw the whole class out and be like, ah, this is bullshit, who cares? None of these guys are worth drafting. Like, obviously that's not true. But I think on multiple different levels, even at the top of this thing, we're already making compromises with this class that we just very rarely make. And the fact that we can attack that conversation on multiple different fronts I think is telling. One of those fronts is positionally where some of these guys are going to be drafted, where it doesn't often happen this way. Like Jeremiah Love might be a top five pick that just doesn't happen very often at running back, Sonny Styles might be a top five pick that almost never happens at off ball linebacker. Or Arvo Reese, who I'll be honest, I didn't really know before talking to more people, listening to more people, that there are a lot of folks out there and we were talking about it with Trevor Sikima this week. I saw John Ledyard, who does really good work, talking about this earlier this week that they think that Arvell Reese is an off ball linebacker, like that's what he should play in the NFL. And so if that's the case now we got two off ball linebackers that might go in the top five. Caleb Downs is in this conversation. So positionally that's part of it. And we're going to do an entire show, I believe next month about this idea of positional outliers and where you draft them and why you draft them. But we're doing a different outlier show today, Derek, because there are different versions and buckets of outliers. Even with the premium position players. If you look at Dane's top 15, Ruben Banes, Spencer Fano, Makai Lemon, Caleb Downs, a lot of guys we're going to talk about today are outliers, even independent of what position they play. And so I think on multiple different levels, this is going to be a draft where you're picking guys outside of historical norms, you're making compromises on things you don't usually have to in the top 10. And even if the overall quality is still worthwhile, that is something that's going to permeate every discussion that we have about this.

[Derek Lassen]

So that's kind of the thing. I think if you look at the premium positions, I'm going to move out the quarterback in this class because it's basically just Fernando Mendoza and nobody else. And I don't really think he's like an outlier in any way. But the receivers, the tackles and the edges, like almost all of the each of the top three Guys at those positions are. It's like short arms or it's this or it's that. And it's like Carnell Tate is. Is pretty clean. And then, I mean, like, that's kind of it. And like, David Bailey's not really an outlier, but like, he's a little smaller than like the prototype. Like you. There's just no prototypes at those positions in a way that there usually are a couple in. In like the top 10.

[Robert Mays]

So I have a question about Dale David Bailey that I think is really important. Would he be the first top five pick at Edge that did not wear gloves in the modern era of the NFL?

[Derek Lassen]

He's gotta be. I'm not looking that up, but it's gotta be true.

[Robert Mays]

Just no.

[Dane Brugler]

No gear.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, it has to be. It was. When I started watching him, I was just. I was shocked. I was like, this is. We got like Trey Hendrickson chic out here with a top five pick, a weird number.

[Derek Lassen]

Like, he's 31, everything.

[Robert Mays]

It's a gross number. Yeah. So, I mean, we're talking about, again, compromises in ways that I typically wouldn't be willing to make them.

[Dane Brugler]

You gotta make compromises in this draft that is fair.

[Robert Mays]

So let's talk about some of these guys in the top 15. I. I want to just discuss this as a general idea and then we can really dig into the individual players. Derek mentioned the edges, some of the tackles. Reuben Bane, I think is Dave the best place to start this conversation? Because in a lot of way, I mean, we did the exercise and on the clock on Monday, he went second. Trevor Sycamore was like, I. He picked him second in the entire draft.

[Dane Brugler]

And can I just say, I. I listened to that and I just. I like, applauded Trev while I was in the middle of walking my dog. Because with everything we know. So the big thing with. With Ruben Bane is the arm length. There. There is not. There is not a player like him. He would be the shortest armed defensive end, like, taken in the first round, definitely. But one of the shortest arm length defensive ends taken in the draft going back to 1999.

[Robert Mays]

Since 2000, he has the sixth shortest arm length in the mock draftable database for EDGE players. And we're talking about him as the second overall pick in this draft, according to some people.

[Dane Brugler]

For Trav to. I was just like, you know what, man? Hell yeah. Cause the tape rocks. And I was actually talking to somebody this week where you look at Reuben Bane. If you. If you went to a Miami game and just watched him warming up, you would be like, what the hell are we talking about? Are you kidding me? And then watch him play football. Watch him play football and tell me you don't understand why he might get drafted that high. It's, it's fascinating because if I'm just watching the cutups, if I'm watching Miami games, I'm like this guy, please, absolutely. Before anybody else. And then it's only once you start to look at the measurables and that stuff's important. I'm not telling you to ignore it. It's very scary. But I, if, if there was tape, I'd be willing to bet on being the outlier. It, it's probably Reuben Bain. And that's why I was, I was excited to hear Trev say it with his chest. Like, yeah, the tape's that good. Whatever.

[Robert Mays]

So, Derek, I want to hear your take on this with Bane, specifically before I follow up with Dave, because I, I have a natural follow up question to that exact point.

[Derek Lassen]

When, when, when you watch Reuben Bane's tape, when are you worried about the arm length? Like, I, I have, I watched three, four, five games of him and at no point was I worried about the arm length. Like, I, this is one of the handful of guys where I am not worried about it whatsoever because of the way that he's built. Like, if he was because he's like 6 2, 2, 63, he's a very short, squatty, powerful, built like a fire hydrant type of defensive end, which is, it's not typically the type of guys that go in top five, but again, it's kind of weird class. But I think because he's built that way and he's not this like 6, 3, 250. Try to win around the edge. I need to win with my length. I need to win with my Ben type of player. I'm not that worried about the length. Like every time that he needs to get into an offensive tackle's chest, he can do it. When he needs to win inside, he can do it. Anytime he takes on people in the run game. Jesus Christ. Does he do it? He just mashes people in the run game. Like I, I watch Ruben Bane and that to me is like in a normal class, probably a top 10 player. And then in this class where it's like there's a couple of guys who, or a couple of guys that are elite that are maybe missing. I'm totally fine like taking him at 2 as high as Trevor did.

[Robert Mays]

So I guess that's where I, I don't know if hang ups is the right word, but when I watch it and there's like a little bit of cognitive dissonance, I think it's mostly rooted in that idea, Derek. And that the. If he's going to be a top five pick, he just doesn't look like a top five pick physically. Right. When we think about the guys typically drafted in the top five, and I'm not even talking about what the tape measure says. I'm talking about when you watch him play football and you think about the guys normally drafted in the top 10, there's just a gap between those two things. And again, as somebody who is comes to this a little bit later and I'm sitting there and I'm imagining like a number two overall pick next to his name and then I start watching him play, there's part of me that's just like, this guy's the second overall pick. And it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the quality of football player that we're discussing. It's just that aesthetically in so many different ways, he just doesn't look like that guy. And I was talking to Dane about this today and there was part of me that was like. And Dana's discussed this. Where there are teams that aren't in

[Dane Brugler]

love with him, sure.

[Robert Mays]

There are teams that have, like, real serious questions about him. And I think a lot of that doubt is rooted in this idea of, well, he doesn't look like a top five pick. He doesn't look like a top ten pick. And there are problems with that type of thinking. I think we could admit that. But I also completely understand upon watching him how teams arrive at that conclusion and concern.

[Dane Brugler]

It's very scary. Again, like, we're. We're not talking about an outlier. Like, oh, the, the arms are just a quarter inch of the threshold that we typically really like. And, you know, it's not a long list. Like, no, Reuben Bane is the list like that. It's a unique type of outlier. When you're talking about a guy who has never. Like this archetype doesn't exist for a player who's a, been successful and b, been drafted this highly. And I mean, Dane's been saying it all year, but I can corroborate as well. Like, there are there. I mean, there are teams that are going to have a grade on him and take him in the top 15 like that. That's just a thing. And, you know, I think when you hear him talked about as, you know, like all back in September people talked about him as definitely the best player in this draft. And then by November it's like, ah, maybe we got a little carried away, but he's still a top 10 player. Not all teams are going to agree about that. Absolutely. And I don't blame them in this instance. But. And I don't think I have the guts to go with Trev and say definitively the number two pick in this draft. But I'm, I'm comfortable like flip on the tape of him just mauling Texas A and M, knowing that that's a Texas A and M offensive line. Not with, not with like first round studs all over their offensive line, but the majority of Texas A and M's line is going to be drafted next month. And him and Akeem Mezador just whipped ass all day long in, in that playoff game. And you just see him do it enough times to where I have a degree of comfort there. It's very unorthodox and it's not something I've ever seen before, but the body of work kind of speaks for itself after a certain point.

[Derek Lassen]

Just like really quickly, the last thing I would say, I know these two players did not go in the first round, so like, it makes it like a weird comparison. But we do have some evidence that like this body type can work when those guys have been healthy. Both Carl Lawson and Marcus golden were like kind of built like this where they're like the 260 really short arms, really powerful, like really good run defenders. And I know that again, that's not like the sexiest comp. But Bane is like, if those guys were like 9 out of 10 athletes like Bane is, he's significantly more explosive. He's bendy, like he's. That style of player can work. And he's like way supercharged athletically. So like if, if we're going to, I don't know if we're going to sit here and do this for every player. It's like, which side of it do you fall on? Like, I'm okay with it or I wouldn't do that. I would be okay with it. It's obviously still a risk, but I'm taking Ruben Bane in the top five.

[Dane Brugler]

Well, going back to what Robert said at the top of this, there's some sort of risk with every player that's going to go in the top 12 or so picks of this draft. I mean, I think, I think you're right, Derek, like Carnell Tate strikes me as a pretty clean player. David Bailey looks The part of like a clean edge rusher. And then I don't have big questions about Mendoza, but other than that, you're kind of deciding how comfortable you feel about a guy that doesn't have everything you're looking for. And that's why, like considering that there aren't a lot of cleaner options, that helps me feel more comfortable about Ruben Bane.

[Robert Mays]

Even the. The best. I mean, the comparison that's kept coming up over and over and over again. Beyond those first round guys, this player had a little bit longer arms. Again, wasn't as much of a historical outlier, but the physical profile outside of the arm length. Brandon Graham is the guy that people keep mentioning. And I think even the idea of like Brandon Graham was the 13th overall pick in the 2010 draft, if Reuben Bain was the 13th overall pick, would everyone would? I just feel like a little bit more comfortable with that idea rather than him being the second overall? I think the answer is that I would. But again, does that just speak to the draft that we're talking about here?

[Dane Brugler]

The funny thing though is I. You can't rule out that Ruben Bane will be the 13th overall pick. Like that is well in the range of possibilities.

[Robert Mays]

And I think that's the conversation that a lot of teams are probably having. And that's the idea of him falling to 13 because there's so much hang up over this stuff. And that discussion of. And I think this is when I said I was going to come back to a point you made and ask the question. I think with all of these guys and with every outlier that you ever come across in the draft, I think the most important question you have to answer is, is this a player worth compromising for? Like, are there other things that are so outlandish and outsized, Punny, but outsize about this guy that he is worth compromising for? And I think with each of these individual guys, you have to ask yourself that question. And I think the answer sort of has to be emphatically yes. And with Ruben Baines specifically, like there guys who are other like outlierish players, like the guy that we're going to talk about when it comes to Mikhail Lemon, that I think is really important just because I think he broke the mold for receiver size. Is Devontae Smith right? Like Devontae Smith is like an all time outlierish prospect. Devontae Smith was the most productive receiver in the history of college football. He won the Heisman Trophy. Is Ruben Bane productive enough to allow you to kind of step outside of some of those concerns you have about the frame, like, are there things other than, like, he's a cool player? I like some of the things he does that are so outlandish that you're like, I think he can overcome this.

[Derek Lassen]

I mean, it's not quite the same as winning the Heisman, but I think being clearly the best player on a national championship, like defense, obviously they didn't win it, but getting to the national championship, like, I do think that that is, like, kind of puts you up into that category.

[Robert Mays]

That's a fair answer.

[Dane Brugler]

And producing, like, you know, I don't think Miami's 2025 schedule was quite a murderer's row. But producing in all of those moments, again, like wrecking Notre Dame in the season opener. Florida was not good last year, but that's a team that's going to have NFL players, including their left tackle, beat up on Texas A and M, beat up on Ohio State. Like, in these moments, he showed up like, we can talk about another guy, another guy with arm length issues, because that's this draft. Cassius Howell.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah.

[Dane Brugler]

Texas A and M, phenomenal player. Did some really cool shit. Was, I believe, the leading defensive lineman in the SEC in sacks and beat up on some. Some SEC programs. Also watch him play against Miami and play against, like, NFL offensive tackles, and you're like, ooh, that shows up a little bit. It does not show up as much when you watch Ruben Bane, in my opinion. And that gives me a greater degree of comfort.

[Robert Mays]

And with how, I mean, he was a productive pass rusher. Bain led the country in pressures. It's like, it's not even. Just like, there are stylistic things and how he plays against the run and I think a lot of stuff to like there. But he was also arguably the most productive pass rusher in college football. It's just, again, I think the question becomes, was it so much production that you're kind of like, ah, some of the other questions matter a little bit less because of that, but everyone has to come to their own conclusion about that.

[Dane Brugler]

I think that's true, but I also, again, what is the supposedly safe alternative?

[Robert Mays]

But again, that gets back to the. It's more about this draft than it is about the player. And I think that's another thing. We keep coming.

[Dane Brugler]

We're going to keep coming back to. It all works in tandem.

[Robert Mays]

All right, let's take our first quick break here and then come talk. Come back and talk about a player that I'm going to be willing to compromise on thy ticket.

[Dane Brugler]

Lady Jennifer of Coolidge well, many thanks. Thanks good sir. Here is my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

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[Dane Brugler]

Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Geth with the times.

[Robert Mays]

With the times.

[Dane Brugler]

You're playing the loot. Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right? Discover is accepted at 99% of places

[Robert Mays]

that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

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[Robert Mays]

people want the truth about a product, they don't just search, they go to Reddit. Whether they're debating the best espresso machine or the right B2B software, redditors are there to make a decision. With Reddit ads, you can reach these high intent buyers right where their research is happening. Join the conversation and grow your [e-mail] podcasts. Valid for new Reddit ad accounts only. Only valid once per business. Additional terms apply. See business.Reddit.com for more. I've watched a few games of Reuben Bain and I will watch more as we like dig into the defensive end show and everything else. I'll say that like I wasn't in my first pass. I wasn't like so enamored where I was like yeah let's do this. I I'm sure I may get there as I watch more the guy that I at my first pass and I was like yeah, let's do this. I'm willing to compromise immediately. Is watching Spencer Fano from Utah Really? Yes.

[Derek Lassen]

Expounded monster.

[Robert Mays]

Watching the way he moves is just wild. The way he moves in the run game, the way he pulls the moving to the second level. It's not even just that like the movement skills in pass protection, the the contact balance is unbelievable. I think that there are a lot of nuances to his game in terms of, like, what his pass protection plan looks like. Like, the independent hands, the way he flashes his hands. Like, I just. One of those guys where I turned it on, and immediately I was just like, I'm. I'm just enamored with this guy. At the same time, Derek, this idea of he. The arms are 32 and an eighth, and I don't. I honestly, when I watch him play,

[Dane Brugler]

he got up to 32 and 7/8 at his pro day.

[Robert Mays]

Congratulations.

[Derek Lassen]

I'm thrilled for him.

[Dane Brugler]

Okay, that's still.

[Robert Mays]

So that is worth mentioning, like, the. The last couple years in the combine measurements being so wonky and shorter than we're used to. Like, how that plays into these discussions, I think is at least worth acknowledging. But, Derek, my issue, when I watch Fano, Fano and I think the other guy, like, the thing that might come up with teams really curious about his ceiling and whether he's worth, like, a top 10 pick, it's not even the arm length. It's just that his frame, he's just a smaller guy. And so the power is almost more of a limiter than the arm length to me when I watch him. And that's just another layer to, like, where are you willing to compromise and where are you not? Because the movement skills are so crazy that I could talk myself into him, but even I'm willing to acknowledge he probably has a limited ceiling because he's never going to displace guys.

[Derek Lassen]

I think that the Fano is the trickiest one for me because I think I am confident he will be a good offensive lineman. I'm not positive it will be at tackle, but I just. The movement skills are unbelievable. Like, I think he's such a technically clean player, and even though he doesn't move people, I think he commands blocks really well in that, like, once he gets his hands on.

[Robert Mays]

Good.

[Derek Lassen]

Yes. Like, once he gets his hands on a guy and like, snaps his hips into, like, moving the guy, it's like, oh, he just takes control of the rep. It's all over. And then, like you said, he never loses his balance. His feet are always with him. He's never on the ground. Like, he's just a very, very clean player in the way that he does it and checks all the movement boxes. But yeah, the frame is a little bit skinny. And it's. It's not just the arm length. It's that when you just look at him on. On film, it's almost like Ruben Bane, where you're like. That just doesn't look Like a top five tackle because his, his shoulders are kind of narrow. Like, he just, he has this, like,

[Robert Mays]

they're a lot wider than Will Campbell's, I'll tell you that right now.

[Derek Lassen]

Well, that is all. That is fair. That is completely fair.

[Robert Mays]

I looked at our first thing, I was like, what's the, what's the wingspan compared to Will Campbell? How can I talk myself into this?

[Dane Brugler]

And I'm like, the difference can't be that much.

[Robert Mays]

Oh, it's like several inches. Okay.

[Dane Brugler]

Yeah.

[Robert Mays]

Really?

[Derek Lassen]

Okay.

[Robert Mays]

It's like 76. And I think that Thanos is like 80.

[Dane Brugler]

Will Campbell's is 77. And three. Three, eight. Spencer Fano live mock draftable on the podcast.

[Robert Mays]

That's what we've been doing 24 hours a day. Yeah. Last two weeks.

[Dane Brugler]

Spencer Fano is up to 80 and a quarter. So. Yeah, it's like three good.

[Robert Mays]

Bit longer. It's. It's bigger. Yeah, it's bigger. So why are you surprised about the Fano thing?

[Dane Brugler]

I just so Fano the. For me, it's. And it's. It's both of the Utah tackles. And again, like I have. Sometimes it can be a benefit, sometimes it can be a. A hindrance. I remember going back to August, like Spencer Fano. Caleb Lomu is the other tackle at Utah. And both of these guys are candidates in August to be like OT1 to be a top 10 pick and be the first guy off the board. And they both had their moments. They're both good players. Lomu is enormous. Like, looks very much the part of a left tackle, but he's 21. He's a developing player. Fano is the more developed player, but is just a more of a physical outlier we're talking about. And I think over the course of the year, you just didn't see them like, grab the bull by the horns and just become that no doubt guy. And speaking of our man, David Bailey, like, he. He Texas Tech in general because Romello Height is the other guy. Texas Tech gave Utah freaking fits when they played those guys. And I think it's just one of those things where you hear the name and you're. He's on your radar. And then over the course of the year, you're just like, ah, I wanted this to go in a linear progression and that's just not the case. And then this is subjective. But if you're talking about an offensive tackle prospect who might go top five if he's doing a center workout at the combine, I'm just. And, and maybe like, he could be a phenomenal guard or maybe even a center. Like he's definitely. He, like Derek said he's going to play offensive line in the NFL and probably be a pretty good player. Will he be an upper echelon offensive tackle? And if he's not, is that worth a number? Like a 3 to 5 overall pick? So, and I don't, I don't know the answer to that. I don't feel as good about it, which I can understand. There's some in congruities, thank you so much, incongruities there with Ruben Bane, but with Ruben Bane I'm just like, ah, just kick somebody's ass and get after the quarterback and it'll probably all, it'll all even out in the wash. But like if I'm drafting a guy top five and he might have to play guard or even center, just dampens my enthusiasm a little bit.

[Robert Mays]

Where are you at on this?

[Derek Lassen]

I, I think that's a little bit where I'm at. If you're going to try to make the optimistic case that he can play tackle, there are some guys who look like this. Luka Decky has a very similar build to him and so does Bernard Raymond. And those are both like Pro bowl

[Robert Mays]

level tackles, like second and third round picks.

[Derek Lassen]

Second and third round picks, exactly. They're not guys that you take inside of the top 10. And so that's kind of, I mean I did the same thing with Ruben Bane, right where I'm talking about like these are guys that can work and they're like third and fifth round picks and stuff like that. And so these guys can work, but you're trying to thread a needle a little bit. So I think ideally, like if he's up for it, I think he would be a phenomenal center. Like the movement skills are perfect. Like, I think the frame fits better. Like if he could do it, if he could handle that mentally, I think you'd be sensational there. But even if you think that he can be like the third best center in the league, centers don't go top 12 in the draft. Like that just doesn't happen. And so I think it just puts teams in a really interesting position.

[Dane Brugler]

If they whip ass, should they? Like, I mean I'll, I'll argue against myself here. Like I was the guy standing up for centers a couple of weeks ago ago.

[Derek Lassen]

He's never done it. You just don't know, right?

[Robert Mays]

I think that's part of it. And I also just think that we, we're going to do an entire show about this. But the idea of positional value is like, it's very real. Like the, the resources that you have to allocate to the positions. And now obviously, maybe that changes because of the way that Tyler Linderbaum has moved the center market. So maybe that discussion starts to shift a little bit. But this idea of the markets, the way the league rewards certain positions financially, dictates value when it comes to drafting guys in the first round. Because, like, if you. I don't know exactly where the numbers lie, but like, running back is always the best example to use with this. So let's go with running back. If you draft a running back in the top five, Jeremiah Love becomes hypothetically the sixth highest paid running back in the league. Whatever, right? Even if he is immediately the sixth highest paid running back in the league, you had no moments where that contract was of any sort of value to you. And I thought Hayden Winks did a very good job of this with something he did on Twitter last week. Our buddy from Underdog talking about this exact idea. And again, it's something we've discussed a lot, but I think he put a really fine point on it. Kyle Hamilton was the one that I thought he did a really, really good job of articulating this. We had this idea of Kyle Hamilton as this player who fell in the draft and fell further than he should have in the draft. Kyle Hamilton was the 14th pick in the draft. Go look at the contract that Kyle Hamilton now has as the 14th pick in the draft and go look at all of the players drafted ahead of him and what they are going to get paid on their second contracts. It is going to be significantly more than Kyle Hamilton. And so even in the moments where we think we can step outside of positional value in the first half of the first round, it often comes back to this place where the. You're not actually getting that much excess value. And so I do think that, like, we can talk about this all we want and it's not about on field impact. I think that is one of the biggest gaps that comes up when we're having this discussion. It's not when we're talking about linebackers and you're saying, well, linebackers don't impact the game in the same way, so that's why you can't draft them high. That's not true. Like, Fred Warner impacts the game in the same way that other elite players do. But if the Merc doesn't reward those players that way, then they're inherently less valuable. The, the thing I did with Ashton Genti last year was that if you miss on Ashton Genti with the seventh overall pick and you miss on Armand Menbu with the seventh overall pick, the end result is the same, right? Like, you missed on the player, but the upside is so much higher with Membu than it is with Ashton Jensen that you're incentivized to pick Membu with the seventh overall pick. It's like the downside of the bet is the same, and the upside of the bet is 3x. And so, like, you. You have to weigh that when you're making this decision. And so I want to believe in the players at positions that are of less premium, that are less premium positions. I want to argue that they should go higher in drafts. But, like, ignoring the practical realities of what that means is silly and we shouldn't do that.

[Dane Brugler]

And not to keep beating a dead horse, though, but, like, and that's what makes this draft so interesting to me, is all of that stuff matters. But if the solution to the problem isn't there, what do you do? I think they, like if.

[Robert Mays]

I mean, it comes back to the Genti thing where it's like, okay, you have to think about the likelihood of the bet paying off, right? If the bet. If the 3x. But you feel so much better about the genty bet hitting because he's a safer prospect. Like, even if the payoff, if your. Your payout on a really, really high end tackle prospect is 4 to 1, but it has a 25% chance of hitting, but Genti has an 80% chance of hitting. Like, those. Those are the different sorts of calculus. Like, those are the things that you have to think about as you're making these bets. But the problem is that I always come back to this, that we're not good enough at figuring out who the safe prospects are to justify that line of thinking as often as we follow it.

[Derek Lassen]

I think that's mostly true. But I do feel like at running back, when a guy is like a top 10 pick, that guy turns out good like, every time now. So maybe we're just on, like, a heater. But who.

[Dane Brugler]

What about Melvin Gordon hurting Beller's feelings?

[Derek Lassen]

Did Melvin Gordon go in the top 10 also? That was like 13 years ago.

[Robert Mays]

I mean, I'm just saying There are top 10 picks at running back that. What about Leonard Fernet?

[Derek Lassen]

Okay, I mean, that's a good one. And that was still 10 years ago. Everyone since him has been sensational.

[Dane Brugler]

Leonard Fournette helped the Bucks get that super bowl running back this is a

[Robert Mays]

worthwhile conversation to be having about running back. I think you and I have talked about this Derek, where I was talking to somebody with a team recently and they were discussing that it running back. It almost. We almost might be in a place where it's worth spending these really high picks on running backs because those are the true difference makers at the position. Like their thinking, it kind of shifted on that. And so I do think that there is more momentum for that approach to running back Derek than it might seem based on like recent history and how we think about it.

[Derek Lassen]

And I also do think Leonard Fournette is actually a good jumping off point because he was not a super valuable pass catcher. Every other top 10 running back since him has been able to give you like really high quality third down ability like Bajan Robinson and guys like that. And so I think that's maybe been part of the difference too is that the elite like we now only consider you an elite running back if you can also do that.

[Dane Brugler]

I just think the what you're bringing up like last year and ironically Armand member wasn't even the first offensive tackle taken. But if there was an Armand Mimbu at the top of this draft then I'd like I wouldn't even be a conversation. People are dying to have an Armand Mimboo in this draft and instead you're trying to squint and see it with good players. Don't get me wrong. But you're trying to make it work with guys that just don't have the physical traits at least at, you know, to go in a. In a range like this.

[Robert Mays]

You the physical traits point was cuts me off. The joke I was about to make is like Spencer Fano was the Armand member in this draft. We. We should just stop searching for them because he's sitting right in front of us. But no, I think what you're saying is correct.

[Dane Brugler]

Fact.

[Robert Mays]

Let's talk about Makai Lemon as part of this discussion. But before that we're going to take one more quick break. It's that time of year again for taxes. We all know the stress of the old way of filing. You send your documents off and then absolute radio silence. You're stuck refreshing your inbox and sending awkward just checking in texts, wondering if they've even started. But with TurboTax Expert full service, I know my TurboTax is expert. Takes taxes fully off my plate and updates me every step of the way so I don't have to worry. That way I can get back to the things that matter to me like going on vacation in the spring or enjoying the NFL off season. So stop chasing updates. It's time to switch to the modern tax filing Solution with Intuit TurboTax. The best part? You can get Experts progress right on your phone while you go about your day. So go for a run or grab a coffee. You'll know your dedicated expert is handling it, looking for every last deduction to get you the best possible outcome and every dollar you deserve. File with confidence. Visit turbotax.com Only available with TurboTax Full Service Experts Real time updates only in

[Farnoosh Tarabi]

iOS mobile app hi, this is Farnoosh Tarabi from so Money with Farnoosh Tarabi and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile Quick Money tip Stop paying a carrier tax. If your phone bill feels trapped in a pricey plan, this is your sign to Unlock Savings. Boost Mobile helps you reset your spending. With the $25 Unlimited Forever plan, you can bring your own phone, pay $25 and get unlimited wireless forever. And that simple Switch can unlock up to $600 in savings a year. That's money you could put towards paying down debt, investing or something that actually brings you joy. Those savings are based on average annual single line payment of AT and T, Verizon and T Mobile customers, compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com Buying good seafood shouldn't feel like a gamble. With wild Alaskan company you can cook with confidence. You'll get wild caught perfectly portioned seafood delivered right to your door, frozen right off the boat to lock in fresh flavor, texture and key nutrients. Never farmed. No antibiotics, GMOs or additives. Just high quality fish that tastes incredible every time and it's all backed by a 100% money back guarantee. Get seafood you can trust. Go to wildalaskan.comcastc a s t for $35 off your first box.

[Robert Mays]

So lemon is honestly like funnel I think again just to put a point on it, I think every concern about his ceiling and again it's not even just the arm length, but it's the size and the power and some of those concerns. Like I absolutely think there are, there's reason to push him a little bit further down and not compromise on a player like him, even if I do love a lot of what he's bringing to the table. Lemon I think becomes arguably in my opinion the most interesting discussion with all of this because he's not like a huge size outlier or athleticism outlier Derek, but he is in some ways so Makai Lemon from USC who day in again has in the top 15 of this draft. He's 511, 192. Okay so he's very similar to Lad McConkey in size. He's incredibly similar. And this is the comp everyone has made. It's understandable on a bunch of different levels. Tom on Ross St. Brown overall build, athleticism. So when you look at guys that were less than six foot and less than 195 pounds to go in the first round over the last 15 years, a lot of those guys. You'll sense a theme as I list these off. Ted Ginn, Jalen Waddle, Chris Olave, Tavon Austin, Garrett Wilson. All of them ran sub 4 4.

[Dane Brugler]

You're naming a lot of fast guys.

[Robert Mays]

All of them. They were all at least that receivers that a vertical element to their game that ran a sub 4 4. What was Mikhail Emmons 40 time.

[Dane Brugler]

I mean they I think they said 4, 4, 8 unofficial. But I don't buy it. I think the real time was like 4, 5, 6 or something like that.

[Robert Mays]

Let's just be generous and say it was four or five even that makes him an outlier as a player. Less than 6 foot, less than 195 pounds. Derek that will be drafted in the top half of the first round because almost all the other guys who have done this are speed receivers who have a vertical element to their game in a way that he just doesn't. His eight out was like 10.3 yards

[Derek Lassen]

last year and more and a lot of them were guys who were more even played outside in college. Even if they became guys who maybe played a little bit more slot. Like Matthew golden is not that different of a size but he was played a lot of outside and ran a four two nine. Xavier Worthy was obviously smaller. Fastest man alive. Zay Flowers, also a guy who played a lot more outside in college also ran really fast.

[Robert Mays]

Like was the 22nd pick in the draft.

[Derek Lassen]

Exactly, exactly. We're not talking about like a top 12 pick here. He falls because again the super short arms, all that stuff. And so Lemon is an interesting one because I think for me if you just look at him, for me at wide receiver, I'm like that's not a first round pick. Like you just that size that's you're not in a league.

[Dane Brugler]

Shocking to hear Derek say this.

[Derek Lassen]

You know at least guys like Garrett Wilson is like okay, that's an elite athlete or you have to be Devonta Smith where It's like, you are so undeniably good, I'm gonna let you get away with it.

[Dane Brugler]

And I think, Lemon, have you watched Derek? Have you watched Enzo Boston yet?

[Derek Lassen]

Funny enough, even though I'm a sizeist, I don't love him. We'll get to that at some point.

[Dane Brugler]

I'm shocked. Okay. You bucked that trend at least.

[Derek Lassen]

Yeah. There are a couple of other big receivers I like in this class, but Boston, I was a little more like, he's. He's okay. But when I watch Lemon, I see more of like a Khalil Shakir type. And like, that's a good player. You can't take that in the top 15. Like, that's absurd to me.

[Robert Mays]

That feels like a low end comp for it compared to the people who like Makai Lemon. I'm sure they would hear that and spit in your face.

[Derek Lassen]

So that's the other thing. I. I was not quite as impressed by his tape. I think he's a good player. I think the use cases are very obvious. That cannot be your best wide receiver. And I don't want to draft not my best wide receiver in the top, like, 12.

[Dane Brugler]

I feel like you and I talked about this on. On a different show. Like, why, why. Why does he need to be your best receiver? Like, just. I'm looking at. I'm just looking at the top of the.

[Derek Lassen]

He's not going to be. He should also be able to play outside. He should be a Jalen Waddle. He should be a Devonta Smith, and he can do it a little bit, but he is a slot to me.

[Dane Brugler]

The Cleveland Browns are the only team picking in the top half of the draft where Makai Lemon would be the best pass catcher on their team right away. Right. Does that sound accurate to you?

[Derek Lassen]

I'd have to pull up the draft board again, but maybe.

[Dane Brugler]

I mean, like. And I'm cheating a little bit by including tight ends like Bowers and Trey McBride and stuff like that. I guess you could make. I guess you could say Tennessee. Probably Tennessee.

[Robert Mays]

Tennessee.

[Dane Brugler]

But I don't expect Tennessee to take Makai.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah, they're not.

[Dane Brugler]

But like Washington, New Orleans, Kansas City, Cincinnati. I guess if Miami took him, he'd be the best receiver on the Dolphins. But Dallas, Louisiana, Baltimore, Tampa, like, all, like, all these places he could wind up. He doesn't need to be your best pass catcher. And I understand the ideal is to get that guy, but I don't know. That's not this draft, and I think that's okay.

[Robert Mays]

So, again, I want to with all of these, I think the most important question you can root these discussions in is, why are we compromising on this player? Why is this worth doing? And with MK Lemon, I think the reason that this is a different discussion is that the structure of the league has pushed us to a place where his limitations matter less than they would have in a previous version of how we understood receivers and their profiles. We did an entire show last fall. It was me, and I think Matt Harmon did an entire show about the changing physical profile and athleticism profile of elite receivers in the NFL. And the guys that we kept coming back to that kind of were the centerpiece of that show were JSN Puka and Amon Ross, St. Brown. At that time, they were just, like, in a completely different tier halfway through the season in terms of production in the NFL. And I think because we're at a place where we have so much zone coverage in the league, and if your biggest weakness is inability to kind of deal with press on the outside, that matters less than it might have in previous eras of the NFL. And because so many teams are playing with these condensed formations, the line between slot and outside has blurred to a point where. If you are a guy where it's like, is he really an outside guy? Is he a slot guy? That matters less than it has in previous eras of the NFL. And so with Lemon specifically, I think the arc of where the league is push us to a place where even if he doesn't feel like a top 15 receiver most years or 10 years ago now, should we reframe our thinking around that?

[Derek Lassen]

If other people want to, that's fine. That's not the way I want to build a team. That ain't for me. I'm not taking a slot primary who's under 6 foot in the top 15. And I also. It's. Again, I think I would make a. I think I would maybe make an exception if I thought his tape was special. I think his tape is good and, like, just kind of flatly good. That's kind of where I landed with him.

[Dane Brugler]

Like, if you're. If you're holding out for special tape, then you're not going to love that many guys that you can pick. That's.

[Derek Lassen]

That's where I like. I like probably at least a dozen players in this class more than him. Probably closer to, like, 20 something.

[Dane Brugler]

I mean, I can count, and I

[Derek Lassen]

haven't even seen everybody.

[Dane Brugler]

I can get behind a dozen. Like, a dozen's fine.

[Robert Mays]

If.

[Dane Brugler]

If you don't think Makai lemon's a top 12 pick. I'm not gonna argue that hard with you.

[Robert Mays]

But, like, we should also acknowledge that he's not a reliable narrator when it comes to this specific subject.

[Derek Lassen]

I wait. For what?

[Robert Mays]

For numbers, Receiver size. Just like, just understand where. Understand the messenger on the other side of this.

[Derek Lassen]

I mean, let me, let me make a small case against like, or to, to wash myself away of this for this class specifically. Casey Concepcion is very similar size. I think he's a better prospect.

[Dane Brugler]

That's interesting. I, I mean, I mean, Casey Concepcion fast. Yeah, no, he's. He's much more fast and much more sudden. I don't know though, man. Like, Casey Concepcion has drop issues. And Makai Lemon catches everything you throw into his very small orbit. Like, it's not a big catch radius, but he's coming down with it.

[Derek Lassen]

He, he does have big myths. There's a little bit of like the Parker Washington thing there. But like, again, like, like, do I want to draft the guy who's like, Parker Washington ish. That high? I don't know.

[Robert Mays]

It's going to be my next question for you. Let's just say in the very uninteresting and uninspired comp world that he is just. Amanra St. Brown. If I told you right now that Mai Lemon had Amon Ross st. Brown's first five years in the NFL, do you think he is worth a top 15 pick?

[Dane Brugler]

Barely.

[Derek Lassen]

Because again, I think I, I value wild stance.

[Dane Brugler]

That is a crazy, crazy thing to say.

[Derek Lassen]

I value a player like Amon Ross St. Brown probably a little bit less. Like, if I, I, I, there are probably other outside receivers that people would probably rank below Amon Ross St. Brown that I would probably take above because I just prefer that as a skill set. And I think it's more valuable.

[Dane Brugler]

How many receivers over the course of Amon Ross St. Brown's career have been. And of course, like, there are, like, there are more explosive, better receivers than Amon Ross St. Brown, probably less than I.

[Robert Mays]

But you can count them on two hands.

[Dane Brugler]

Yes.

[Robert Mays]

Yeah.

[Dane Brugler]

It's a short list.

[Derek Lassen]

You're a very good player. I, if you read it, to find guys who can win outside. And I, I value that in the draft. Like, you want to find the things that are hard to find.

[Robert Mays]

I think he can win outside. I think, I think has shown an

[Derek Lassen]

ability at this point in his career. Can. But like, that is a very recent development that took five years for us to really get there.

[Dane Brugler]

I don't know.

[Robert Mays]

I just.

[Derek Lassen]

And again, maybe Lemon can.

[Dane Brugler]

I just want to put good football players on my team. I don't really care how they win.

[Robert Mays]

Here is the if I was trying to play devil's advocate for the shitting on Makai Lemon party that Derek is trying to throw. A lot of these guys that we're talking about in this world where more condensed splits, you know that it's that blurred line between being a slot receiver and being an outside receiver. A lot of those guys who succeed in those specific offenses are capable run blockers who are able to wield that as part of what they're providing to the offense. I think there's more questions about what he can do in that world than what somebody like Aman Ross St. Brown can do in that world. And I think that's a worthwhile thing to bring up.

[Dane Brugler]

I mean, he's always going to be limited by his size, but I think he's got the right attitude. Like, I think he. He's. He will block for you. I don't. Like, he's not, like, he's probably not ever going to be great at it, but he's not like an Olay sort of wide receiver or a guy who's just going to jog up and not look like. I think Makai Lemon will. He'll. He'll mix it up for you, even if it's not why you're drafting him. And for the record, I get it, like, sub 200, sub 6 foot, bad 40. It's a bad combination for a wide receiver.

[Derek Lassen]

But.

[Dane Brugler]

But I don't know. I like the tape and I just. I think you have to work within the parameters of what this draft class is giving you. I like Carnell Tate more than I like Makai Lemon after that. I mean, Jordan Tyson's an amazing player. Jordan Tyson missed almost 40% of his college career. That scares me a hell of a lot more than Makai Lemon's parameters.

[Robert Mays]

Me, personally, Derek, if Makai Lemon was drafted by the rams with a 13th overall pick, would you be excited? It.

[Derek Lassen]

See, that's cheating, though, because anytime, Anytime someone like a Sean McVeigh or a Kyle Shanahan draft someone, I'm like, maybe. But I, I still. I would probably look at it and be like, man, I wish they took X tackle or whatever it is at that position. Like, I just. It doesn't get me all that jazzed.

[Dane Brugler]

I don't know.

[Robert Mays]

Part of the reason I said that is not just the, oh, if this guy likes him, then maybe I should too. It's also the. In that offense, it seems like that's the best word for him to be very successful.

[Derek Lassen]

And that's what I'm saying is like, if he and his world can see it, it's like, okay, well then maybe there is a world where this could work. Well.

[Dane Brugler]

And that's part of my point too,

[Robert Mays]

is his world is our world. Now is the other argument I would make. The McVeigh world is the offensive.

[Derek Lassen]

That's fair.

[Dane Brugler]

There aren't. And maybe it's. Maybe it's a quirk of this year's draft or maybe it is a statement about the way this stuff is changing. There aren't that many places where Makai Lemon is going to land where it's like, good luck, buddy. It's all on you. Like, no, like, there are most of the teams where it would make sense to draft him. He's going to be a piece of the bigger thing.

[Robert Mays]

I can't wait for him to be the number one receiver and get 150 targets in Miami this year. I'm, I'm, I'm pumped about it.

[Dane Brugler]

That one.

[Robert Mays]

Oh, those condensed splits and the baby offense. They're gonna love Matt.

[Dane Brugler]

That would be kind of wild if Miami picked him, but I'd, I'd be interested to see what it looked like

[Robert Mays]

the last guy in the top half of. Of the first round that I wanted to discuss here. This is a slightly different conversation and I think that we can talk about him here and in the positional outliers one. But I do think when you look at Caleb Downs and you just think about some of the specifics with Caleb Downs, a lot of the guys drafted in the top half of the first round at safety have one of two things going for them that Caleb Downs just doesn't really have as part of his profile. They are either crazy athletes like they. I mean, straight line speed just. Or physical size outliers. He is neither of those things. Or they are production outliers similar to what we talked about with like a Devonte Smith. If you look at the guys that in your minds, like guys that were drafted in the top half of the first round at safety that ended up becoming like hugely productive players, like borderline hall of Fame players. Earl Thomas in his final year at Texas, who was the. I think Earl was the 13th or 14th pick in the 2010 draft.

[Dane Brugler]

10 draft. Yeah.

[Robert Mays]

He had eight interceptions his final year at Texas. Earl Thomas did Eric Berry in his second to last season at Tennessee before being the fourth overall pick in the draft, have seven interceptions. Minka had a season in college. You think he was the 13th pick in the draft where he had six interceptions. Caleb Downs has six interceptions in college total. And so if you look at some of the things with Caleb Downs compared to other guys who have been successful as safety's picked in this range of the draft, there are some gaps in his profile compared to players like that. And so I do think he kind of creeps into this discussion a little bit.

[Dane Brugler]

Caleb Downs is absolutely part of this discussion. I mean even building on that, I was curious just from a size perspective, Earl Thomas is a name worth mentioning too. But he was 1520 pounds heavier than Caleb Downs coming out the list of sub 6 foot 200 pound safeties that have gone in the first round over the last 15 years. It's not a long one and a lot of them didn't pan out into anything overly great. Jabril Peppers comes to mind. And then the patriots move Devin McCourty to safety.

[Robert Mays]

Jibril Peppers is such a perfect one because it does remind me a little bit of the discussion around Cam Dows were just like he's just a football player. He, he's just a football player. Like he's, we're taking that high because he's just a football player.

[Derek Lassen]

I don't know. Caleb downs was like 18 years old at Alabama and immediately the best player in football. Like I, to me that's a. Jabril Peppers felt like a really cool idea. Caleb Downs to me is like that guy has like was born to play safety.

[Robert Mays]

That is very fair. And again I know everything that's appealing about Caleb Downs and watching him this morning is the, the ability to process the game and what's happening in front of him and the route recognition, just how quickly he triggers on everything. It really does feel like he just sees the matrix playing the position. And so I, it's probably an unfair comparison, but I did think it on some level that Jabil Pepper's thing is like. Oh, it brings me back to like that discourse in that moment.

[Dane Brugler]

I'm glad you brought that up. And it's a point. I think Daniel Jeremiah made it at some point in the last week or two. But so much of what Caleb, so much of what makes Caleb Downs valuable and I've talked to, to people about this on my own as well. Like it's stuff that you, I mean you can see it when you watch him. Like it's very obvious what a smart player he is but the, the mental aspect that he brings to your defense and, and getting people into the right position and knowing what's Going on. It's a much harder thing to quantify than what he looks like when he measures up at his pro day.

[Robert Mays]

And what I would say is just again the pushback based on like his history and how we make these decisions is that specific skill very, very, very rarely pushes players to be drafted inside

[Dane Brugler]

the top 10 and that very rarely. For the record, I'm, I am fascinated by this and I've been thinking about it a lot because I feel like people, people expect him to be a top 10 pick and I wouldn't blame a team that made him a top 10 pick. But I'm at the point where I almost expect the league to do this again. Like I don't. I think I need to see the NFL draft him in the top 10 to believe that they're going to do it. Between the. And for the record, I think people hear like sub 6 foot and like his overall size and he didn't run a 40 in this draft process. I think Ohio State's pro day was on Wednesday and he didn't run one. I think it get like people are under the impression that he's a bad athlete. I don't think he's a bad athlete at all and I don't think league evaluators really have a lot of questions about that. But he's not like a freak athlete either. And so between the size and normal athleticism and normal production and normal production, I, even if I disagree, I won't be surprised if he does slide. And by slide I mean like I would guess he's a top 15 pick instead of a top 10 pick.

[Robert Mays]

So let's bring it back. Why are we compromising on this player and should we be compromising on this player? Is there a worthwhile answer to that question for you and Caleb downstairs?

[Derek Lassen]

I think for me, yes, like one. He again he just the way that he sees it is as good as I've probably seen. I'm glad you brought up Minka earlier. He's probably sees the game as well as I've seen a safety see the game since Mika. Like Kyle Hamilton was fantastic too, but part of drafting Kyle Hamilton was oh, they just don't look like that. Like they're just not safeties who. Like that. Yeah, just terrible. Like he was a little bit of a different conversation. Even if his film was also fantastic downs, I think his film was fantastic. And then, then I think too he also really fits in this too high world we're living in where like he's a really good hash safety. He can Spin to the middle if he needs to. He's really good down in the box. He can cover from the slot. Like he does do everything in a way that you need from the modern game. And then the last thing, and maybe this is just me, like I really, really value that. The guy who was like 18 year old freshman high program immediately like that is the best player on the field. And for him to do that at then two different programs, like I usually the guys who are that good right out of the box, that guy ends up being a pretty good NFL player.

[Robert Mays]

And in the box.

[Derek Lassen]

And in the box.

[Dane Brugler]

Oh, right. I see what you did there. It caught me off guard. I just think like the, like we say so much about the direction the league is moving in and maybe he's not perfect because he's a little bit undersized, but like Caleb Downs

[Robert Mays]

looks like

[Dane Brugler]

a perfect player for what NFL defenses are trying to do.

[Robert Mays]

Maybe that's, maybe that's part of it, right?

[Dane Brugler]

Yes.

[Robert Mays]

It's like it's adjacent to the Makai Lemon discussion that we're having and Derek

[Dane Brugler]

kind of touched on it just there. But like you're like you're not drafting Caleb Downs to play one position. Like he can do a little bit of everything. Some NFL teams are going to play him a lot at nickel. And I don't mean like the big nickel, Nick him and worry thing. He's a different type of player, but he can do stuff in the slot, he can do stuff in the box, he can play on the back end. He's going to be one of the smartest players on your defense. That again has everything shored up, makes everybody better because he's got him in the right position to make plays. And he's also, he's one of those guys like he's, he is wired for football. I don't know if he's wired for anything else. Like ball, Ball is life for this guy. That's what I've heard about him. And so between the, the mental makeup of what he's about and what he wants to do and then his calling card as a player, nobody's bust proof. But he looks like a guy who, who is meant to be like a turnkey player for a modern NFL defense to me, even if the, the size isn't ideal.

[Robert Mays]

And I will say if we're talking about the inability to figure out who the safe players are, one thing that I do think a lot of teams come back to when they're like, I don't know if he's Going to be great, but I know he's going to be somebody who could be a starter for us. He's part of our program. He's somebody you can rely on. The football character, part of that. That, to me, is probably the most important part of that. Like, Paris Johnson is the best possible example of this to me, where I think there were questions about, like, Paris Johnson's ceiling and what Paris Johnson would be. And I think the Cardinals at that point in their process, in those first couple drafts where they had no players, it was just like, we just need a guy who we know is going to be a starter for us five years from now. And that's what Paris Johnson was. And he was a top 10 pick. No. 12th, no. 6.

[Dane Brugler]

They traded back, they traded down, and

[Derek Lassen]

then they traded back up and all this stuff.

[Robert Mays]

Yes, again, it's a premium position, so it's a slightly different set of considerations, but like, again, that's part of the thinking.

[Derek Lassen]

If you're the Bengals, right, and you just need, like, starters on defense, why would you not take Caleb Downs where it's just like, I know where they're like, we're taking a swing. Like, we. We've missed out all these edge rushes. We need to hit this guy. Caleb Downs is the exact opposite of like, listen, he might only top out as like a B level player. That's. I don't think that's true of Caleb Downs. But, like, if that's what we're saying, potentially, even if he tops out as a B, he also bottoms a B minus. That's fine for where we're at, given how bad the defense is.

[Dane Brugler]

You can come back and play this for me in four years, and if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If you draft Caleb Downs, assuming good health and, like, for being an undersized player, he didn't miss a lot of games in college. Assuming good health.

[Robert Mays]

Not that small, by the way.

[Dane Brugler]

No, no, I know he's not that small.

[Robert Mays]

He's not like this idea of, like, oh, he wouldn't be A. He's two. It was 206, the combine. Like, if you. If 200 is like, that's capable like that.

[Dane Brugler]

He's not enough. He's not a crazy small player. He's just not a big player either. Assuming good health, the bad. Caleb Downs is a guy that starts for you for five years and you let him walk in free agency. And like, if that's the bad version of this, I can live with that. I mean, it's not ideal, but you're not going to look back on this in three years and be like oh that was the Caleb Downs draft which was the beginning of setting us back for three years. Like I just, I don't believe that's going to happen.

[Robert Mays]

The only thing that's going to creep up is when Spencer Final goes one pick later and he's a 10 time All Pro. It's the only thing that's going to throw a wrench into all this. This Any other guys you guys, you wanted to make sure we hit a discussion. I know we kind of zeroed in on those four players and you guys had more guys that kind of fit this.

[Dane Brugler]

I got a few Derek, do you

[Derek Lassen]

have any first one that we did not touch on which is kind of unique to this class but there are two players that fit this Akeem Mezador. The other Miami Edge being he will be 25 by draft day and the history of players who are 25 and older by draft day is, is not very good. And and for me if we're talking about how many other find how many there's I, I I it was honestly really hard to find lists on this.

[Robert Mays]

I even asked Dane today and he like there isn't a quick way to access it. Like I, I was surprised that in doing some of the historical research I was actually surprised at how little historic draft data is like publicly available for search.

[Derek Lassen]

I thought like Pro Football Reference would maybe have like I could go on there and it would give me like major at drop draft and it, it doesn't have it so it was a little bit hard to find it. But it's just like I think we all know that like most of those guys who get drafted that age kind of struggle and then so for me if you're going to be that age you either need to be like the best athlete on the field or your tape has to be insane. I think Mesadore's tape is solid but like for his size wasn't quite the run defender I thought and then I thought all of his best pass rushes were like him lined up as the three tech on on like a third down on like a third and 11 and he wins and gets the guard and and like that is valuable in the third round. I don't know if that's like where I want to take that in the first round.

[Dane Brugler]

I'm so ready for the COVID Flyers to be like they're finally winding down and we don't have to worry about this anymore. I think there's a few more guys but it shouldn't last much longer there. I did find a few articles of like 28 and like 27, 28 year old guys who were drafted. Most of those happen a lot, like literally decades ago. And most of them were also quarterbacks. Like, there's just not a lot of press.

[Robert Mays]

Whedon and then Danny Watkins was the other one. Right? Like, wasn't Danny Watkins like super old? That's what, that's one of the names that Danny threw out to me this morning.

[Dane Brugler]

Jarris Pendleton is another one. Jerus Pendleton, all the way back in 2012, drafted at the age of 28. Yeah, I mean there's, there's not a big sample size of guys like this.

[Robert Mays]

So who are the other guys you wanted to talk about?

[Dane Brugler]

One guy that's really interesting to me and I actually, I mean, Dane and I have talked about him before, but I was talking to him about it last night. Night. I think it's so interesting that one of the top cornerbacks in this draft is a guy who didn't play last year. And that would be J. McCoy out of Tennessee. And obviously, like guys deal with injuries all the time. And so Jerma McCoy tore his ACL in January of 25, right after Tennessee's season. He was phenomenal as a sophomore. He transferred from Oregon State. His 2024 tape is absolutely incredible. You completely understand why people are high on him. He didn't play at all in 2025. There was hope he would come back for Tennessee. I think he said at the combine he was medically cleared, but he just didn't feel all the way comfortable. As of right now, Tennessee's pro day is. So it's March 26th as we're recording. Tennessee's pro day is March 31st. So nobody's seen this guy run. And he says he's all good to go. He's completely fine. But I think it's fascinating that a guy could be a top 15 pick with, with absolutely zero tape from the year before. And we've seen this.

[Robert Mays]

The.

[Dane Brugler]

Speaking of COVID the two, I mean, Jamar Chase, Micah Parsons, Panay Sewell, those guys all sat out. They were healthy. They just didn't play in the 2020 season. For a guy to not have a season at all. And Dane threw me these names, which are, which is good on his part. JSN played three games the year before he came out.

[Robert Mays]

Siobhan Revelle was the guy I was thinking about, which he was a third round pick.

[Dane Brugler]

Yeah, he's the third round pick. And so to if he really goes in the top 15. Top 20 with no junior tape, that's incredible to me. And it says a lot about how good his tape was in 2024, and it maybe says a lot about this

[Robert Mays]

draft class and it brings us back around. That was going to be my question. Or does it say more about this draft class?

[Dane Brugler]

The 2024 tape is really, really cool, but I would be scared shitless. Again, going back to what I said about Spencer Fon you in August, you're like, this guy's the truth. He's going to. He's OT1 and he was good this year, but it's up and down and you're like, ah, I know. Okay, I know you love Spencer. The I like. But I mean, that's. That's player growth in general. Very few guys are just on this constantly upward trajectory. So for Jermod McCoy to not have any tape from this past year and still go in the top 15. Not saying it's impossible or anything, but that's wild to me. Derek Stingley is another one worth mentioning, but he, he had three games in his final season at lsu, which not to say that you're hanging your hat on that, but I don't know, it makes me feel a little bit better to say, okay, he played a few games, got hurt, shut it down after that. As opposed to, we have not seen this guy on a football field since December of 2024, and he could be a top 15 pick next month. That's. That's a new one for me.

[Robert Mays]

Derek Stingley goes back to Derek's point about when you were 18, were you the best player on the field? That's. That's the guy I'm going to continue to bet on.

[Derek Lassen]

Yes, exactly. So, like, the short arm, some of the other stuff with him, the injury history was like, dude, we knew from day one that guy was it. We don't have to worry about it.

[Robert Mays]

He's been okay. Yeah, he's been. He's been. He's been a solid pro.

[Dane Brugler]

Was not SEC freshman of the year, though. Bo Nicks was.

[Derek Lassen]

Who was it that year?

[Robert Mays]

Justifiably so. The only, the only way you can. The only way you can make Derek stay worse than trying to pump up Mai Lemon as an elite draft prospect is dropping that at the end. All right, that is all we've got for today. As always, thank you guys for tuning in. Make sure to hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. And if you enjoyed this, please, like, leave your ratings sound off in the comments and we will see you next time. Thanks for tuning in. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. If you enjoyed what you heard, please like comment and leave a rating. We'll see you next time.

[Derek Lassen]

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[Robert Mays]

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