← The Athletic Hockey Show
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C
And the best part?
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They accept Discover. Except Discover in a little place like this? I don't think so. Jennifer oh yeah, huh?
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C
Discover's accepted where I like to shop. Come on baby, get with the times.
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A
Right. So we shouldn't get the parachute pants.
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C
These are making a comeback, I think. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
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Foreign.
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This is the Athletic Hockey Show.
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D
All right, welcome everybody to a special edition. Artemi Panarin, Trade edition of the Athletic Hockey Show. Sean Tatilli, I'm here with Vince McCagliano and Peter Baugh, O' Rangers experts. Boys, they slipped it in right before the deadline. Artemi Panarin headed to the Los Angeles Kings for prospect Liam Greentree, a conditional third round pick that could turn into a second and then another fourth depending on how far the Kings go in the playoffs this year. And they immediately signed Panarin to a two year extension worth $11 million a year. Okay, so this is over. It's been going on for a couple weeks. The situation obviously picked up steam whenever Chris Jury sent his letter to Rangers fans outlining that this seemed this and other things seemed like a possibility. Vince, let's start with you, man. This is, I think the, the initial reaction here from everybody, no matter how close they are to the situation, is that it is an underwhelming return. Liam Greentree is a prospect, yes, and perhaps half decent one, but not a, not, not a top guy leaguewide. And then you're getting into the conditional draft picks of it all. Why was that? The case outside, outside of the obvious, where, you know, Perrin obviously had control to dictate where he wanted to go. But that being the case, this is still a little thin from the outside looking in.
- [03:29]
C
Yeah, you know, I find it hard to be overly critical of the return here. I think the bigger tests for Chris Jury are coming if he trades Vincent Trocheck, which Peter and I both believe is a strong possibility leading up to the trade deadline, or Braden Schneider or any of the other people that we're going to talk about, I'm sure in the coming weeks, as far as being on the table, like, that's where he's going to really have to make some headway as far as restocking this system. The reality all along, I mean, people that thought he was going to get a haul for Panarin, I never got that sense, because as you touched on, of the no movement clause, I mean, I think it's important to understand the way that this all unfolded and the position that the Rangers were in and really the extremely limited power that they had in this situation. It was all Panarin and his agent, Paul Theophanis, who were steering the ship the whole way. Now, the Rangers, I think, hoped to accelerate that process when they pulled him out of the lineup last week for roster management purposes. Clearly, I think they all had today as a deadline, a soft deadline, if you want to call it that in mind. But I think all parties involved want to get it done today. But what was happening was the Rangers were really kind of stuck sitting on their hands all along while Theophanis and Panarin were shopping around. I mean, the way that multiple people have framed phrase it to me, and I know it's been put out there by others this way as well, is that this is kind of like free agency. This was them going team by team to try to figure out, okay, well, what do you have to offer if Panarin comes to your team? And we all know the contract extension, as Chris Johnston and others have reported and Peter and I have both written about, was a critical, critical piece in this. And so what I believe was happening right down to the wire today is that Theophanis was talking to multiple teams and trying to figure out where a does Panari want to go, but also who is going to be able to give us what we want as far as the extension is concerned, I think they were aiming even higher than what they got from la. And it sounds to me like a lot of teams are really reluctant to go to, let's say, four or five years on that extension at the kind of AAV that they were fishing for. So it sounds to me the impression that I think multiple league sources I've spoken to have is that there were some smoke screens involved here and that maybe some teams were propped up as wanting them to or wanting other teams to believe that they were more involved than they actually were. I mean, I do very much believe that the teams that we have reported as far as Washington, as far as Carolina, the Florida teams, I think Panarin had a lot of interest in those teams, and I think they were involved to some degree. I don't know how serious it was on their end, because from a cap perspective, both the Panthers and the Lightning would have had a really hard time pulling this off. But I think until the very end, they were working it. They were trying to get what they wanted from whichever team that they were going to go to. And then at the end, Peter and I have both heard this, they went to the Rangers. Once Panarin and his camp made their decision and said, it's the Kings. That's the team we've decided on. And then Chris Jury had to take whatever he could get from that team. Now, he could have said, you know what? I don't like what you're offering. I'm not going to do this deal now. And waited them out over the Olympic break and hoped that maybe they would cave closer to the deadline. But ultimately, I think any team was going to call his bluff in that situation because they know that he had no real recourse. His only other option was to hold Panarin and let him walk for nothing in free agency, and then he would have really had egg on his face. So I don't think they were ever going to go down that road. Obviously, they were going to make the deal with whichever team Panarin told them to make the deal with. And I think that's how it all played out. And that's why they got, if you want to call it underwhelming, I mean, I think Green Tree, most people believe is the best prospect in the King system. The problem is the Kings don't have a really strong system, but that's the only team the Rangers had to work with. So it is what it is.
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D
Peter, when did the Kings emerge as the. Is the favorite here? Because we'd heard a lot about the Florida teams. We heard about certain other east coast teams. I feel like from the outside, the Kings, as a, you know, as a top of the list suitor for Panarin, had move to the background over the last few days. So when did it become clear that this was going to be the outcome?
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Well, I mean, we, Vince and I made an initial list of teams to look at and we didn't include the Kings initially, but I would say shortly after that it, it became a name we started hearing from just of a team that would potentially have interest and maybe would be interested in an extension. And I would say those whispers didn't go away. Some teams that fell off when it became clear that Parents Camp wanted an extension as part of the deal. I think Pierre lebrun, our colleague, reported Anaheim was one of those teams that was interested in acquiring him, but probably only as a rental and not as a. As an extension candidate. And the Kings were not one of the teams that, that fell off at that point. I think in the. It's interesting in the today it was a lot of quiet. I mean, I think you could see that just from the amount of stuff that Vince and I were putting out that other people around the league were putting out, there wasn't a lot of noise because I think of the way Panarin's camp operated, which is they didn't really want a ton of noise out there. And that's kind of the Rangers MO too. So you, you had a lot of kind of this, this waning game and then the things popped up. I wasn't shocked by that outcome. It certainly felt like one of the possibilities. I can't pinpoint exactly when, during, during the day, it, it started trending that way, but it wasn't a shock necessarily to me that that was the team that ended up getting them. And Vince and I, when we did a story pinpointing potential trade targets for Rangers at the bottom, we listed prospects from teams that we thought potentially the Rangers could do business with, either with Panarin or Trocheck or Schneider, those candidates. And Greentree was one of the people we had on there because it seemed like a potential Panera destination.
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And Vince, do we have a sense? I, I know you got into this before, but I, I think part of the. Again, from the outside looking at this, the question turns into, you know, if this was, if this was the return, why did the deal happen now? Like, was.
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Is it.
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Was it an artificial deadline or was the deal not going to meaningfully change over the next three weeks? Like, is this as simple as. Like, it was the Kings and they offered what they're going to offer and it was going to be the same whether it was February 4th or February 26th.
- [09:50]
C
Yeah. I mean, if, if you're the Kings and Panarin says you're the team I'm going to go to, what incentive do you have to up the offer to help the Rangers out? Like, that's not something that I think is a top priority for them. So I, I find it hard to believe the offer would have gotten much better, if better at all, had the Rangers waited until after the Olympic break. But I do think from the Rangers perspective, getting it done now was important because as I touched on earlier, they have a lot of arguably more important people, pieces of business to get to, guys where they do have leverage and they are going to make it more of a bidding war, more of a trying to shop around with multiple teams for Trocheck and guys like that and maximize their return, it's critical that they maximize the return on some of these other guys, given the underwhelming return that we've talked about that they got with Panarin. So I think they want to move on. They wanted to get this done and now they'll spend the Olympic break working on all these other guys. And I think from Panarin's perspective, the biggest positive of getting it done now is you have three weeks now to go out west, to get acclimated, to figure out what your living situation is, to start maybe practicing with your new team. We know like the Rangers, I know, for example, I think by like the second or third week of February, even while the Olympics are still going on, we'll have some informal practices for the guys that are still around. And I'm sure Panarin would like the opportunity to skate with some of his new teammates. So I think from both sides, like getting it done early and having this behind them and not hanging over their heads for the next three weeks was a preference. It wasn't a must. But I think all along we felt like this was something that they were going to try to get done by 3 o'clock today.
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D
All right, so let's talk about what this means for the Kings. They have Panarin on the books for the rest of the season at about five and a half, give or take, and then 11 for the two seasons after this one. They're one point out of a playoff spot. It's been a really bizarre season for them. It's been up and down and I think in a lot of ways if you, if you would pull people who follow the follow the last the Los Angeles Kings or care about the Los Angeles Kings, I, I think they'd be, they, they'd be less thrilled with them than the record indicates because this is like a fringe playoff team. But I think the way they've gone about getting those 61 points or whatever it is has been frustrating. They're 28 and five on five scoring. They're 28th in overall scoring and they have two players with more than 30 points. That's Kevin Fiala and Adrian Kempe. Panarian obviously helps with that. He's still a, still a still a power play weapon. Pete, we'll go with you on this. What at first. But Vince, I'd love your take on it as well. What kind of player is R to me Panarian like in 2026? Not necessarily 2025. Certainly not 2024. What his what is the state of his game at the moment and and how do you expect that to translate to his, to his new situation?
- [14:27]
E
Yeah, Panarin got off to a really slow start to this season which which kind of had him playing catch up numbers wise from from the beginning. Talked to him at one point in the beginning of the season and he mentioned that some of the contract stuff was, was on his, on his mind a little bit. I think the, the state of his game honestly to me and since that slow start has been pretty similar to last year, I don't know if it's not 23, 24 when he was fifth in heart trophy voting or whatever, but I think he's been super effective. Top line player who maybe makes some defensive miscues that you get annoyed at, but that is still producing at a really high rate and that's someone that the Kings Kings could use. I mean that lineup before him, if you just look at it, doesn't seem to have a ton of firepower and now they have a big game player who can, can both facilitate and put the puck in the net himself. And I'm also curious just based on, on your last point of Vince was talking about him getting, getting into LA to practice and stuff like that. Possible. We see him play before the break. The Kings play tomorrow night. We see guys get traded and, and play pretty quickly. So I'm curious kind of how, how quickly they're able to infuse him into their lineup and, and for them, I mean they're adding a guy who is a top line level player. They're giving him two more years. There's not really a whole lot of free agents coming up this class. They already signed their own guy Kempy, so it's, it's. They have the space to I guess roll the dice and have another high level talent on their team for the next two years when. And they're giving up essentially. I mean the draft pick is an okay draft pick, but not really one that you're going to lose sleep over giving up. And then Green Tree, who by what we've seen is a decent prospect, but maybe not a topical line one. So I would guess that's the rationale. We haven't heard Kenneth talk yet, but that, that's kind of how I see it from their perspective.
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D
I think Panera will look interesting with Quentin Byfield too as a, as a playmaking winger. I think Byfield's a guy who's bounced back and forth between wing and center in the past. He hasn't carried over his production from last year. I don't think the superstar leap that a lot of people anticipated that, that he'd have clearly hasn't taken place. So I'd really be interested to see what he looks like with a talent of Panarin's caliber there. Vince, this one's for you because I know you're writing longer about this in. In the piece, I'm sure I'll be live at the Athletic relatively soon. What is Artemi Panarin's legacy in New York, and how have the last couple weeks affected that legacy, if. If at all?
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C
It's a really, really interesting question. It's one I've been. I've had, like, a week to grapple with now. I started writing this column, like, I think about a week ago now. Once they started holding him out, when we felt like the trade could be any day now. I arrived on the beat a few months before they signed him. So I've kind of had a ringside seat for the whole thing. And I don't think, as I write in my column, that it's hyperbole to say that he's the greatest free agent signing in Rangers history. I mean, I come from, as a younger person, watching this all unfold when I wasn't reporting on it in the early 2000s, the Rangers took one bad free agent swing after another. Guys like Scott Gomez and Wayne Redden and just a lot of really, really bad signings.
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D
It's a tough. If you're trying to single someone out from that group, it's a tough. It's a tough call. I think I. I think I would have gotten Wade Redden first. But, you know, Gomez, yeah, is a good pick, too.
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C
Bobby Holik, I mean, there's. There's some bad ones in there, so.
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I'll never say a bad word about Bobby Holik. The great Bobby. Holy.
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C
By the time he got to the Rangers, it wasn't quite the same. You know, so basically, this is a team that has been chasing stars for really, throughout their history. And if you think about their modern history, especially like the Henrik Lundquist era, for example, they had great goaltending. They were this, you know, rugged team that went on these great playoff runs, but they never really had the scoring, and they always seem to be chasing that offense, and they were always short on it. With Panarin, he comes at such an interesting time in their history because they were only about a year and a half into the rebuild, or at least a year and a half out from their first letter in 2018. And I know that there was some significant internal debate about whether it was the right time to sign him. They felt like they were still in the rebuild process and that all of a sudden, signing him would accelerate things and raise expectations. And was it the right time to do that ultimately, with Panarin signaling to them, new York is where I want to be. I'M even willing to take a little less money to come there. And they decided this is the type of talent that we can't say no to, and they went ahead and made the move. And I mean, he was electrifying from the very start. His first year, he was top five in heart trophy voting. He was just everything that he was built to be. He lived up to all of it. And I wrote in the column that you had the high leg kick when he would score the goals. You had fans showing up to the stands with these big loaves of bread that they were holding over their heads. And he had this personality that was like, goofy but endearing and just like these one liners. And, you know, he'd walk around with his Nokia phone and I know that he was like always about not reading his clippings and a lot of athletes say that, but I actually believe it was true with him. And he just kind of had this, like, happy to be there attitude all the time. I mean, he's one of the only players that I can tell you, like, covering all these practices over the years that will, like, stop during practice to, like, acknowledge fans if they're there or say hi to the media, like, things. He just had this personality where I think he was beloved by Rangers fans for many years, but where things get complicated is the ending. Obviously, the Athletic was out in front reporting on the allegations against him last year where him and Madison Square Garden paid out that settlement. Now, there's a lot of unanswered questions with that. The Rangers in the league say that there was an independent investigation done, but we have not seen any results from that. Panarin has declined commentary, Rangers have declined comment. So it's one of those things that's kind of been hanging over his head now for the last year and a half and I think certainly brought his character into question, whether, you know, whether it's true, whether it's not, you know, whatever you want to believe. It's something that I think Rangers fans have had to grapple with now and come to their own conclusions because we don't have enough evidence in front of us to really know for sure exactly all the different ins and outs of what happened. And then you have the way that the last two seasons unfolded for this team where everything fell apart at the seams. A lot of popular players were traded away. Panarin ends up being one of them. When it's all said and done, the team is absolutely tanked. I mean, the on ice product has been really bad for a season and a half now. So it kind of leaves you with this sour taste at the end after, you know, his first five seasons were everything you wanted from him and more. He was really worth every penny. Dynamic, creative, the vision, the way that he's able to see plays and anticipate is unlike anybody that I've covered in my seven years on the beat and certainly one of the best in the league, I think, as far as his offensive creativity. And so there's just a lot of things here as far as unpacking this legacy. But it does leave you where at once it felt like this was destined to be like a guy who was going to go down in Rangers lore as one of the best players they've ever had. And you still could make that argument. It obviously ends in a way that I think a lot of people didn't anticipate.
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D
Pete, any, any thoughts there from you on, on how you reflect on the Artemi Panarin era there?
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E
Yeah, I came later along. Yeah, I came, I came longer, farther into the, into the kind of his path with the Rangers than Vince did. I came in the middle of the 2320 force and that was in many ways kind of the, I think the high water mark of his time with the team when he was, was in on heart trophy ballots was a legitimate MVP candidate. The Rangers made the Eastern Conference final that year. But I think that the, I mean Katie Strang is an incredible reporter and her, her article last season revealing that those key and Madison Square Garden paid settlements to, to a woman who was accusing him of sexual assault is a real part of his legacy. And it's, it's something that we all, I think, have to grapple with of how just because you're, you're good at hockey doesn't mean that, that you're good at everything else. And like Vince said, they, there's been a lot of silence kind of from the Rangers, from Panarin himself whenever asked about that. And that certainly to me muddies how his time in New York should be remembered. There's a lot of heft there and it's not necessarily the most fun thing to talk about, but I think it's important to acknowledge and think about when you're reflecting on a person's legacy with a team.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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- [26:47]
C
To some degree, I, I don't think it's going to be pretty. I mean, they're going to continue, they're going to continue to sell guys off. They're at the basement of the Eastern Conference right now, and they're certainly, I think, going to diminish even the limited talent that's left on the roster in the lead up to March 6th. Now, the interesting thing with the guys that we're going to talk about, like Panarin, we know was heading toward free agency, we knew he was a goner. Carson Susi was probably the next most valuable. Not even a ton of value there, but the next most valuable pending UFA that they had. They've traded him to the Islanders. So now the focus really shifts to guys that are under team control for at least, you know, a couple more years remaining. Trocheck is the big one. I believe he was number two on Chris Johnson's trade board. He'll probably be number one now. He's got three years remaining on his deal, so the Rangers do not have to trade him by March 6th. And I'm sure that that's what they're telling teams, but my sense is that they are very motivated to maximize the return on a player who's going to turn 33 this year. That value is probably only going to dip in the coming seasons, but, but he's a guy that I think a lot of contending teams could look at as a second or even in a best case scenario, third line center. If he's your third line center, you're in really good shape. And he brings a lot of the intangibles, the face offs, the penalty killing, but also has a track record of being a pretty significant offensive contributor as well. He's going to be highly coveted. I mean, center, we know, is the most valuable position on the marketplace and there aren't a lot of good ones available. So I think maximizing what you get for Trocheck now has to be the number one thing on Chris Jury's priority list. I'm writing a story right now that's going to be like the next things on is to do list. And I'm not giving too much away by I think, saying that that's number one. But then the other thing I think they're trying to do right now is gauge the market on, on what else they have. They don't have a lot that's really valuable out there. Their prospect, right, is among the worst in the league. Their NHL roster has deteriorated in front of our eyes. So I think what they're fishing around for now and the big piece that I'm really interested in, that I've heard multiple people say they believe they're at the very least listening on, is Braden Schneider. He was a first round pick for them in 2020, a big, physical right shot defenseman that's probably the second most valuable position on the marketplace after center. Now, his development has been somewhat stagnant. I think that there's a level of maybe feeling like, okay, has he hit his ceiling or what is his ceiling? But it also does sound like he's a guy that other teams around the league do see some value in. And I wonder what the Rangers could get from him. I'm sure they're trying to figure that out right now. Alexi La Fer is another guy whose value I think is depressed right now. So maybe there's a better chance that they hold on to him. But these are all guys that they're going to listen on right now because they know that trading Panarin and Susy alone is not good enough for this retool. Like, they need a, they need a, an infusion of young talent here. And, and in order to get that, you're going to have to trade off some guys and restock the cupboard, so to speak. And I think that's really what they have to focus on moving forward here.
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D
Yeah, Braden Schneider's six, three in a right shot. He's got, he's got innate value. Right? Like, he'd have to, he'd have to play his way out of the league. But before he, for, before he stopped being a potential valuable trade piece, right?
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C
Yeah, yeah, he's, he's definitely a guy to watch. They don't have to trade him now. He's going to be an RFA this summer. So it's not like it's a must. And I'm sure again, this is what they're telling teams like, he's a guy, that it wouldn't surprise me if it waits until maybe around the draft or even lingers longer than that. But I think the iron is hot right now. Teams are clearly calling right now and Chris Jury is trying to put as many feelers out and maximize returns and decide when is the best time to maximize the return. And a lot of guys on the roster outside of those that have no movement clauses, that's a whole other conversation. There's a lot of guys with no movement clauses right now. But among the guys that the Rangers have control with, I think they're listening on pretty much everybody.
- [30:43]
D
Pete, anything to add there?
- [30:45]
E
I think Vince, Vince touched on this a little bit about how coveted centers are. By the way, the Rangers just made the trade official. They just announced it.
- [30:56]
D
The words we're lucky. What if they're like actually, actually is.
- [31:01]
C
Headed to Dallas For a second I thought you were saying they made it. I know.
- [31:06]
E
No, no, no, no. No more. I mean, hey, I think that now the roster freeze is in effect. Even if this came in after the, after the buzzer, I think Vince mentioned the, the value of centers and kind of the lack of, of teams that maybe are going to be sellers at this deadline. And that's why I think you often see deadline prices maybe a little higher than off season prices because a lot of teams grow desperate. They see holes in their roster. They know what they need and one piece can maybe push them over the top. So I think you look at Trotrek and you see, I think of the Brock Nelson return that the Islanders got last year where they got Cal Ritchie, who's a really promising young player and a first round pick. I think Nelson is a better player than Trocheck, but Trocheck comes with term.
- [31:51]
D
Whereas the ABs essentially Nelson was not an expiring deal.
- [31:56]
E
Yeah, yeah, the AVs got him wanting to extend him, but it wasn't a guarantee. Trocheck, you have him guaranteed on your roster for a pretty, pretty reasonable cap hit. It's under 6 million and with the cap going up, maybe his game kind of declines a little bit in the coming years. But if you're paying, I think with where the cap's going, if you're paying 5 million for a second line center in two years or a third line center in two years, like that's not the end of the world, especially with kind of what he, what he brings to the table. So I think that is their chance to me of being able to maybe hit a home run where they can, can get a good draft pick and a prospect and maybe even a little bit more. Schneider's interesting. Lafreniere, that's, that's an interesting One because what they kind of face like a pretty existential question with him where you have to know that right now his value is at its lowest it's probably ever been in his career. And they have to ask themselves is it also the highest it's ever going to be in his career? They have to really consider is going to get better or is he. Or is this kind of the high water like. And that's a scary question to ask.
- [33:03]
D
But it's like also like an interesting like rhetorical, rhetorical debate too about the, the nature of value as it as. As it relates to Alexi left Rener. Just to put a pin in the Trocheck discussion, I think something the three of us somehow haven't mentioned. U. S. Olympian Vince Trocheck. Do we get the Olympic tournament escalator in, in the, in the price there? What if, what if it's Vince Strowcheck out on the ice scoring, you know, whatever the golden goal and it's multiple first round picks. Take it. Take your best prospect. Give him to us for Vince Strow. Check. It's in the cards, baby.
- [33:42]
C
Do we think he's in the US Lineup now?
- [33:46]
D
Yeah, probably. Sully, juice up, juice up those numbers. Vince Strowcheck's about to get way more offensive zone starts than he would have otherwise. I think you gotta, gotta think, think of the people that are cutting your checks.
- [34:00]
C
And I, I wonder, I listen, I mean this is just, this is just some early dot connecting based on stuff we're hearing, but I wonder a lot about the, the GM for Team USA Bill Garon and what his interest might be in Trocheck because I think him to Minnesota makes a lot of sense.
- [34:13]
D
Boys, let's just, let's. Let's close it out here. We can put, put it on our calendar. The three of us, we can reunite on trade deadline day or whatever. Whenever Vince Trocheck gets traded to the Minnesota Wild for a slightly underwhelming return. I think when I, I think when that happens, we can reconvene and discuss the next, the, the. The next Rangers trade whenever it goes down. How's that sound?
- [34:37]
C
I'm in.
- [34:38]
D
Awesome. Thank you guys for your time and thank you fine folks for watching us on the live stream. Me and Shana Goldman will be back for the show tomorrow. We're gonna have plenty of coverage of the Panarin trade on the site. Vince, as we said, has. It has a piece that might be live now. We're going to hear and hear from Pete very soon. We got you covered there. So see you tomorrow and thanks for watching.
- [35:04]
A
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B
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A
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