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- [01:38]
Max Boltman
This is the athletic hockey show prospect series. Hey everybody. Max Boltman here alongside the Athletics, Scott Wheeler and Corey Promen and Flo Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect series. The World U18 Championships are more than underway. They're nearing their conclusion and they have been a week of chaos. Guys. Scott and Corey are on the ground in Bratislava and they have witnessed the heavyweights go down. Canada out. USA out. Both before the semis. Finland out before the semis. Corey, how do you kind of sum up what has happened over the last week in Bratislava and Trenchin?
- [02:26]
Corey Pronman
It's been a very unique world's tournament. We definitely knew that this wasn't the strongest NTDP team. I mean I think they were dead last in the USHL in the Eastern Conference this season. It was a, you know, Canada had some intriguing players on their team but it's also, we knew it wasn't, you know, you know, this incredible team Canada full of high end talent but you still thought like that Canadian team could at least Go to the medal round, never mind contend for a gold medal. There was never really one team throughout the course of the tournament that really took over and, and showed consistent dominance. Everyone had like a bad game or in the, in the preliminary round or so so game. I mean us had, you know, tremendous effort against Sweden. They beat him, I think 91 in the preliminary round and then they struggled to beat Denmark. And then the, the Swedish team obviously said that a really poor loss against the U.S. finnish team just get, just got destroyed by Canada and their preliminary round game. And even though Slovakia won their groove, they never did it with this dazzle of high end skill that made you think they've got a ton of premier NHL prospects. So, you know, was it the most enthralling tournament to watch it? Be perfectly honest. Still playing NHL talent generous, probably. What's been a theme now from the U18s for the last few years is more interest in the underage talent than there is in the current draft year talent. This has become more of an underage tournament to be perfectly honest, the last couple of years. But there was still some players of note. Like I think the two guys that generated the most interest was Wyatt Cullen. We're recording this on the off day between the quarterfinals and the semifinals and he's still second in scoring. Actually I think seven of the top 11 scorers right now in the tournament are on eliminated teams. Make of that as, as you will, but it's a call. It had a really inspiring tournament for the U.S. and Malte Gossas in on Sweden has been probably the best defenseman here. And after kind of an up and down year in Sweden, I think he's inserted himself firmly in the lottery range of the draft. If he wasn't already there in the eyes of some, he had a very big tournament for Sweden. Playing big minutes, all situations. Six, four, mobile defenseman. There's a lot to like there.
- [04:50]
Scott Wheeler
Ironically enough, the Swedes, who are now the presumptive tournament, tournament favorites, played the single worst game that any of the teams have played at this tournament in their 91 loss to USA. Like they were pathetic. They had no identity. They were soft. They were irresponsible. They were. Their top players were selfish. And now the Swedes might have a chance here to, to win a gold medal at this tournament. So yeah, it's been, it's been tough. It's, it's been fun.
- [05:19]
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- [05:19]
Scott Wheeler
Upsets are fun. Like from a, from an entertainment standpoint, if you're a fan showing up to these games, the upsets that side of it is fun. Slovakia on home ice in front of some of the best crowds I've ever seen at U18 Worlds, playing their way regardless of where they finish now they'll be playing for a medal. The Latvians going to their first semifinal ever in the history of this tournament. All of these things are fun, and yet from a talent standpoint, and we've. We've. I think we had this, a similar conversation last year. This is the worst U18s we remember from a talent standpoint. This is, bar none, the worst U18s I've covered from. From a talent standpoint. And I will say it didn't necessarily have to be here be this way. JP Hurlbert could be here for Team usa. Oscar Hemming could be here for the Fins, and Vigo. Vigo Bjork could be here for the Swedes. And all three of those decisions were made in some way by that federation and not by those players. And so I actually, I hold the. The Swedes, the Finns and the Americans responsible for. For the lack of talent here.
- [06:23]
Corey Pronman
Carl's could have been there for Canada, too.
- [06:26]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, I think Carl's was a little. A little nicked up, whereas those. I don't.
- [06:31]
Corey Pronman
Different situation than those other ones you mentioned. Yeah, but I just mean, like, there was, you know, players eligible. You mean Klepov just chose to not come as well first? Like, there's just, you know, plenty of players that were left at home, basically. Just continuing your point, the two best
- [06:46]
Scott Wheeler
Latvians in the 08 age group aren't here, and they're still in. In the semifinals here.
- [06:53]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I. I'm looking at these gentlemen in their. In their Bratislava hotel rooms and feeling very validated in my decision to not go this year. And it was my decision, so, you know, it was like. It wasn't like somebody said, no, you can't go to Slovakia. I was like, I don't know if it's worth going. And it was. It is. The U18s as a whole is worth going to. There's a lot of things. There's a lot of reasons that I didn't go this year, but that, you know, it wasn't because of the, the tournament field. You know, I, I think there is value in it, in seeing all the players under the same roof in the same setting and different things like that. But when you have upsets or blowouts. That was basically two settings of this tournament. I'm not exactly sure what I would have gained from that, that I Couldn't gain from here watching on video. And so the other thing about that is, and this isn't just to, you know, to gloat about being in the comfort of my own home office. You know, looking at this tournament as a whole and the questions that are going to have to be asked, there are a lot of very complicated questions that have to be asked as we look at this tournament going forward. Mainly being we are on a trend line in this tournament, as Corey mentioned, with the younger players standing out where the, the talent that is either not available or countries are choosing not to make available is one thing. Obviously there's also the elements of Russia not being part of the tournament, which significantly decreases the competitiveness of the tournament. You know, the fact that we had, you know, lot lot via going on a run that they did even without some of their best players available. And then also, you know, some of, some of these other results. You know, this still was a tournament that included Norway, Germany, Denmark, you know, and at the time you'd usually lump Latvia in there, but here they are in the semifinals and you know, that is a significant downturn. And now we're losing Germany again. Like they get relegated by Norway. So Switzerland and Germany, two countries that have really been on the rise in terms of like the amount of NHL players they're putting through and players that have been high level. They're not in a great, they're not in a great spot either as they continue to get relegated. And Switzerland will be coming back up. Germany's going down for a year. They'll probably be back up in a year. But you know, it's really the tournament as a whole. And I've been covering this tournament or involved in this tournament since, you know, 2008, essentially this is, it's, it's in a steep decline and this is a, this is a problem both for the double IHF and also the NHL, which has taken a much more significant role in this tournament in terms of its placement and other things. So you're starting to wonder if that's going to be worth the investment given the, the fact that the tournament has been in decline.
- [09:42]
Corey Pronman
We spent a lot of this year discussing the new world order with all the changes in college hockey and major junior. One thing that's going to affect this tournament is the fact that, you know, the tournament was actually pushed back to allow two full rounds of the CHLV played to make more players eligible for this tournament. But because of the changes to when players could play, now that all the major junior Players play college hockey is the CHL teams are on notice that a lot of their best 17, 18 year olds are going to leave early. I mean, that's a whole, you know, other issue there that that's being litigated constantly in the world world of junior hockey. But because of that fact, you're going to see a lot of these premier teams load up on Those high end 17 year olds or you know, there's like things that need to be worked out in terms of what, you know, who gets compensated for the play when they get drafted by the NHL, et cetera. But that is a, that's a complicating factor is I think there's always was expectation that Canada in particular was used to getting, you know, 90% of their best players from the age group. Yeah, there'd be a couple of them on the contending teams they wouldn't get. But most, for the most part, the best young players were high draft picks. They were, they were drafted by rebuilding CHL teams. They were not usually contenders by their second year of junior hockey, so they got almost all of them. That's not really the case right now. And it could be an issue going forward in terms of getting the very best players for other countries and age groups. But whether it be imports or, or Canadians, you look, you look around the
- [11:09]
Scott Wheeler
CHL playoffs too, it's already happening. Like the Medicine Hat Tigers. Pickford's been unbelievable and so is Jonas Wu. But the Medicine Hat Tigers are built around Schaefer, Gordon Carroll, Noah Davidson, the Ruck Twins, players who are all eligible to play this tournament. And in Schaefer, Gordon Carroll and Noah Davidson standpoint, because their late birthday, late birth years will now never play in this tournament because they will be too old next year. So Dax and Rudolph, Caleb Malhotra all playing bigger roles than they typically would. Rudolph probably would have played a huge role regardless, but Malhotra certainly, I think playing a bigger role than you typically see a player like him play in the CHL playoffs because this is his year and they know that they're losing him at BU next year and they had to make the most of him this season and build their team differently. And all of those things were a part of the equation as, as Brantford was sort of chasing a title. And I think Corey's point is very well made that way. Where increasingly the teams that are still, even though they've adjusted the schedule, the teams that are still around in the playoffs are going to be relying on these kids.
- [12:11]
Max Boltman
Well, if that's one like Emerging trend, Chris, like another is for the United States in particular. You talked about your first one being in 2008. That was in the heyday of the US dominance of this tournament. From 05 to 17, the US won it nine times in 13 years. And obviously like the NTDP and the, the, the familiarity these players have with each other was a huge reason for that. Well, the NTDP still exists, but all of a sudden the US has won it one time since 2017.
- [12:41]
Chris Peters
What do you make of, I mean,
- [12:42]
Max Boltman
they've had some silvers in there, so it's not like they're absent from the gold game. They're, they're no show in all these tournaments. But certainly the last couple of years it, you know, the age groups have not been as strong. And you wonder, especially as we talk about kind of the realignment of pre college hockey, you have to wonder like, is the US's glory run? Like is it kind of inevitably plateaued and now dropped off?
- [13:07]
Chris Peters
Yeah, it's, it's very interesting that this has coincided with, obviously we've seen better competitive results at the world Juniors over the last few years. I think you have to understand the countries are getting better. Sweden is now a regular threat. But there's something deeply troubling, or should be deeply troubling about the US losing to Latvia in the quarterfinal. And not just losing, losing, you know, there were a couple empty netters in there, but they, you know, losing 5 to 2 to Latvia in an elimination game. And that's going to cause a lot of soul searching. And I think, you know, you look at, there is going to be this new landscape that you're competing with that's this is a bad time to not be winning gold medals because now the signal is to others, hey, maybe some of these options might be better for you. And while, you know, I've worked at the national team program, I think that their, their ability and their track record is really second to none because of all of, you know, all, all of the emphasis that is put on development. There isn't as much pressure to win except at this very tournament. This is the one they're supposed to win. This is the one that they build two years towards. And now they're not going to medal this year, only the second time since I believe 2021 that they did not medal in, in this tournament. So that is a big problem for USA Hockey. It's a big problem for, you know, for the NTDP as they go forward here because now you've got to kind of reassess I think a little bit of everything in terms of how teams are being built, how the different things are, are, you know, what players are you losing and why, what players are you missing on and why. You know, there's a lot of different things. You know, goaltending has been a significant issue over the last few years. You've got, you know, the Trey Augustine's and like it used to be every year they would have, you know, an elite goaltender in there and now you're struggling to find who those players are going to be. So it's a big problem. It's something that they're going to have to address significantly because now those results are going to show up at the NHL draft. They're going to show up at the World Juniors. I mean, next year's World Juniors team. I mean, I think getting to the semifinal would be a miracle at this point. You know, like that's miracle is harsh. Well, not a miracle but like it would be close. It would be a big surprise if they, if they end up meddling at next year's World Juniors, especially with it being in Canada. And so you're starting to see the, you know, the different things that you're like, wow, what, what is, what is going on here now There are going to be differences in player. You know, like Chase Reed was kind of a developmental anomaly. A lot of people didn't realize what he's going to be. Even got cut from his USHL team, played in the North American League. Now we're talking about him as a potential number two pick in this draft. You know, different things that were, you know, those things happen and you don't find those players. But you know, you start wondering about, you know, why are the JP Hurlburts leaving? Why are guys going to leave? And I think there could be some significant departures Even from this U17 team from this year because of the way things are kind of going. So I think there's a lot of soul searching that's going to have to be done in order to, you know, get on top of whatever this is that is causing a significant downturn in their competitiveness at these events.
- [16:34]
Corey Pronman
You saw two first round picks from last year, Strath, Colin Potter and Will Horkoff leave the program prematurely too. I don't know if there's.
- [16:43]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, yeah, there's a call coming in the next couple of weeks here from the U17s.
- [16:47]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I don't think you could doubt the program and what they can do because you know, the US just won gold at the Olympics and Chris, right, 60%, 77% of that roster are NTDP products. Obviously there's a lot of value to being an NTDP player, but I've always struggled with the NTDP and like I've always. Is something I've always sometimes asked when they're players is what do you think you play for 90% of the season? I never really get a convincing answer other than just developing myself and trying to get better and trying to, you know, and you know, trying to compete but like not really competing for anything. I think the U17 season, there's a little bit more to it because there's U17 challenge right at the start of the, of the year and the U17 team does play in the USHL playoffs. They never really have any success there, but they actually are if they competing in it, they are competing in junior in junior hockey, high level junior hockey and they can play in the playoffs. The U18 team doesn't really do that. They play friendlies against colleges. They play USHL games that don't really matter for them because they don't participate in the postseason. They have the international tournaments in November and February. But it's really like a very strange environment where you're basically playing all season towards this two weeks in April. And I can see the appeal. You know, NDDP has generated a ton of great NHL players, but so has Major Junior. Like Major Junior obviously has a very long history of generating great NHL players too. So it's has always been one that I struggle with. Like if you can go, if you're go to Major Junior and basically compete all year in games that matter. I definitely can see the appeal from that. If you're, if you're a US player obviously those are two very different choices and there's much different, much different vibe from being, you know, Ryan the bus of major junior and doing a 68 game grind versus the, the resources that the NCDP provides you and the unique schedule and opportunities that provides you as well.
- [18:42]
Scott Wheeler
The construct of it, the construct of the NTDP works against them in some ways too. Like in and of itself, like it's easy to say JP Hurlburg should have been here. It's harder for them when these kids have been two, two years together and they have like I have sympathy for them. These kids have been together for two years. They that at the 40 or 45 or 4 at this, for this year's age group it was a 47 man camp. At that 47 man camp they're told that they U18 worlds is the carrot at the end of the stick. And that if you commit to us, we're going to commit to you and we're going to go win a gold medal together. So telling those kids increasingly, and they might have to make increasingly those decisions to say like this year it was Brooks Rogowski and Levi Harper, but some years it might need to be 5, 6, 7 of those kids moving forward who come in at you at the U18 Worlds and join the team. And that is there. These are still, it's easy to sort of shoot our shots from the perimeter and I know people online do love to do that, but it, there's a lot more from a human standpoint to it and yet they also need gold medals to, in order to continue to recruit these kids and continue to keep them. And that part of it is going to get tricky here. Like some of the best, some of the best talents of recent age groups have been Riker Lee and Trevor Connelly and Matthew Nyes and players who haven't come through the program. And I, I, there's, I'm sure there's politics to it, but a lot of it is that some of these kids, some of these depth players, your third pairing defenseman, your fourth line center on these teams, have been with you for two years. And it's not as simple as telling them, sorry, this thing that we promised you at the start of this program is no longer available to you as an option ahead of the draft.
- [20:17]
Corey Pronman
I think Chris would know better than me and, but like, my understanding is when it comes to those decisions, there has, has to be, you know, kind of black and white that they need to do this. Like the player available has to be legit and the player they're cutting has to have like really fallen off. If it's close, I think the coach is going to be really hard pressed to cut the guy that he's been working with for two years.
- [20:39]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [20:39]
Scott Wheeler
And they, yeah, they used Rokowski as a fourth line center and Harper as a seventh defenseman in this event. Right.
- [20:45]
Chris Peters
So, yeah, and that's, and that's typically, that's typically how it goes.
- [20:48]
Corey Pronman
Or if there's injuries.
- [20:50]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I mean, and it's, it's tough. It's tough. And I've been, you know, I've been around obviously, and I've seen those, those moments where you have to take guys. The first year I was there, they really had to significantly augment the roster with both outside players and younger players in order to have a competitive team for a Gold medal. I think it was upwards of six or seven players that they had to, to say, say that to and really. Yeah, you're right. I mean in, in Hurlburt's case, like, you know, it wasn't a shock to me that he wasn't there and it wasn't, you know, I mean that was predestined. It was actually. Honestly, even even though they went to college programs, it was a little surprising to me that they had Cullen Potter and, and Will Hork year. I think they really were. If they hadn't gone to college, they wouldn't have been, but I think they were like, well this is part of our plan is getting guys ready for college. So what does it say if we don't let those guys come back? So, you know, and they did that for Warrensky and others. So, you know, like that it's a really interesting dynamic that they have to battle with when it comes to this tournament because as Scott mentioned, you've got that two year commitment but on top of it, that's the message you're sending to everybody that's coming through next. It's like, hey, you know, if, if you go, we'll just let you come back. And, and that's, that's where I think we're going to see a real, like, that's part of the landscape that we're existing in now. There is going to be some type of attempt to clamp down on this player movement. The NTDP has had that agreement for years and years where you know, you basically you're committing to two years. If you leave early, there is some sort of penalty for that. So that's something that you have to kind of deal with. So it's a very interesting, a very interesting dynamic, but it's one that they're going to have to navigate here pretty significantly as the landscape shifts because players are now going to have more choices.
- [22:46]
Max Boltman
All right, let's take a quick break right there. We're going to come back, we're going to talk about some of the top prospects in this year's draft who helped themselves at this turn. Meant for maybe some who didn't.
- [22:54]
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- [24:41]
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- [25:10]
Chris Peters
Okay, I have to tell you, I was just looking on ebay where I
- [25:14]
Corey Pronman
go for all kinds of things I love.
- [25:15]
Chris Peters
And there it was.
- [25:16]
Corey Pronman
That hologram trading card. One of the rarest.
- [25:19]
Chris Peters
The last one I needed for my set.
- [25:21]
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- [25:24]
Chris Peters
One of a kind. Ebay had it. And now everyone's asking. L Ooh, where'd you get your windshield wipers?
- [25:30]
Scott Wheeler
Ebay has all the parts that fit my car.
- [25:32]
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- [25:44]
Max Boltman
All right, we're back. And Corey talked in segment one about a couple of the the standouts of this tournament that's where I want to go here. I want to talk about some of the the key NHL draft eligibles and maybe for if we can talk about some next year guys too. But but the two Corey mentioned, I think we kind of covered Malte Gustafson there. But, but Scott, you had a great story on Wyatt Cullen this week and he's kind of become a name that maybe we haven't talked enough about in this class yet. But but is going to be very relevant come draft day.
- [26:08]
Scott Wheeler
Well, people are certainly talking about him now and really they've been talking about him since the CHL USA Prospects Challenge I think in November. Like he was a standout there. He actually re aggravated a hip injury that he was dealing with there. But through whatever he played four and a half periods, one of the best players on the ice. And it's, it's just a fascinating story because here's this kid who when he showed up to that 47 man camp was 5 foot 5. They weighed him in at and listed him at 5 foot 5 and 120 pounds. And I remember we were all in Sarnia. You guys started in Sarnia last year and then I came in for the medal round in Sarnia last year. But I remember watching him in the medal round and everybody at that point in the tournament was was excited about Luke Sharer and, and Casey Mutren. And I remember watching this little, I think at that point he's five seven, five eight. But this little kid sort of zip around the ice and thinking this kid's unbelievable and he's shifty and he's dynamic and his head is always up and he's twisting and turning and making plays and if only he were bigger. And then he grows and now he's 6 foot 1. He's 176 pounds. The hip injury and he actually tore the hip flexor right off of the bone was literally a byproduct of, of growing like of actual growing pains turning
- [27:22]
Corey Pronman
into those CHLP games. He was at 5 11. So you're talking about a guy who's grown 2 inches, 3 inches maybe during the course of the season essentially and
- [27:32]
Scott Wheeler
this week and really down the stretch for the team, like just far and away their their best, most talented player. For a lot of this season, the talk of about this team was the best pro prospect is Sammy Nelson. Or the best pro prospect might be Carter Meyer. No, the best. I think the best pro prospect at this point looks like Wyat. He's days away from being eligible for the 2027 draft he's still a pretty lean kid. He's going to fill out and on the puck in terms of the skating, the head up, the vision, the playmaking, the ability to go one on one. He does go. He goes one on one. Too much.
- [28:07]
Chris Peters
Like too much.
- [28:08]
Scott Wheeler
That's, that's the criticism for sure. But the skill level and the playmaking and the deception, like there's an, there's an electric like pull you out of your seat factor with the player. And I, like I, I've got my. A little bit of a spoiler, but I've got a new list coming out after U18s and I've debated him anywhere from sort of 11 to 13 and I think he's nibbling around the top 10 for a lot of teams now and an exciting player to watch and, and a big boost for. We were talking about next year's World Junior team like now all of a sudden I think he, he features prominently on next year's World Junior team for Team USA and gives them an injection of skill that they needed and, and that the conversation around him has just changed really quickly here. He looks, he looks legit and there's, there's still a lot that has to come. The off puck and all that still has to come.
- [28:56]
Corey Pronman
But yeah, he has to be one of the most interesting players in this year's draft because the talent is undeniable. Like when you watch him, the skill just jumps out at you. Like he's so shifty, so creative, a good skater, a lot of pace in his game. Then you look at his. How does, how did his season go? I mean he's so dynamic. He must have lit it up this year. You know, 12 goals, 34 points in 34 games with the program this year across all levels. And he had a good U18 tournament up until the point they got eliminated by Latvia, which I think is, you know, it kind of. And you watch the game there and he had to puck a ton. He had a. Plenty of, plenty of chances involved in. Plenty of chances. That's kind of been the story of his season is there's the aesthetics. Look, look really, really nice. It looks like a top, you know, looks like an all day lottery pick with his talent. The production didn't come. I think the people who would be in his corner would say yes, but this is the growing. And this is a guy who's a September birth and he's. And there's a lot of development still to come here and that team wasn't very good. It isn't Very good, you know, but you know, so there's, there's good arguments on both sides on where he should fit. Is he a teens guy? Is he late teens? Closer to 20? Is he closer to 10? I think those are. It's a. He's going to be. I think one of the more not divisive because he's a great player but you know there's good arguments on where to fit him on a list right now.
- [30:17]
Max Boltman
How about some of the other players in, in this class though? Because like Colin is, is a nice riser. But there are names that, that were at this tournament that I think we hoped to hear a lot about. I certainly would hope to come out of this tournament hearing about a Tyne and Lawrence bounce back after things didn't go that great at bu. What was your read on, on his event, Corey?
- [30:35]
Corey Pronman
It started off good enough. I mean he was their first line center. You saw like he was involved in scoring chances. His skating stands out at this level. He's very fast, very competitive, a lot of energy and you know in that game they lost to Sweden probably had one of the nicest plays by a Canadian all tournament when he set up a cross green on the back door. With Lawrence though, I think what we've seen kind of all season starting at the link going into his, you know, into his season between the USHL and college is that he kind of struggles to make the high end plays. Like he can make the basic plays. When he's going north south, he's really effective. You know there is offense in his game. He has a good stick. But like at the Hlinka, at Muskegon, at BU and here every coach has him run the flank on the power play and he just simply can't do it like he cannot do it at a high level. That passed across green might have been one of the first like seen plays I've seen him make all year on the back door. Like that's just not what his game is in the NHL. If he's a power play guy, he's going to be a bumper or a netfront guy and I think there's, I think he's talented. Obviously you know this guy been really high on all year but you know you would. I always try to say I don't, you know, I'm not married to any positions yet to adjust and I have some severe questions on his hockey sense. I just don't know if he sees it at a higher level to be a top six four to the next level. And I think you Know, he has ceded the center debate to Caleb Malhotra, who's just been on fire in the OHL right now. He might even be the second center pick, quite frankly. That might be Viggo Bjork.
- [32:12]
Scott Wheeler
Yep.
- [32:12]
Chris Peters
Yep. Yeah, I was thinking that same thing, Corey. Like, it's. It's. It's been a. It's been a wild year just to see just kind of the. The tumble, and it really. It's not all on Tynan. I think you look at the way that Caleb Malhotra played over the course of the season and now what he's done in the postseason, it's just, you know, super impressive. And Viggo Bjork doing what he did against men, you know, it's. It's really like, you know, if Oliver Svanto had more points, I think we'd be talking about him ahead of Tynen. He. Oliver, it's not.
- [32:42]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, he hasn't played well.
- [32:44]
Chris Peters
There's another guy, had a tough go. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, you know, like, he. Yeah, he had a tough go this. This, this la. Last round. But, like, going into the tournament, you're like, oh, well, that's an option at the top of the center list. But, yeah, I mean, I have some of those same concerns that you do, Corey, in terms of the hockey sense. In terms of the. Okay, what. You know, I can see what you can do. And I go back to last year at the, you know, the USHL playoffs, and he was a top player. I mean, the puck was around him a lot. He was. He was getting to the interior. He was doing so many things that, you know, made his team better and, you know, was the postseason MVP at a young age. But, you know, the more I've watched, I just. I wonder, you know, and unfortunately, I have this feeling about a lot of players in this class. I keep watching, and I was like, if this was another draft year, where does this guy go? And it's always lower than where they're probably going to go this year.
- [33:37]
Scott Wheeler
And he still is. That's the thing. Like, he still is around the puck a lot.
- [33:41]
Chris Peters
Yes.
- [33:42]
Scott Wheeler
But it's. It's. It's two things. It's go get it, which he does so well. Like, he always goes and gets it. He wins battles, he wins foot races. He's a dog. We all like the work ethic and the motor, but it's go get it, and then it's force it to the middle of the ice like he. And there's that. That's admirable, too. Like, he doesn't want to be on the perimeter. He wants to, but it means that there's a lot of tunnel vision and it's skating a lot of pucks into traffic.
- [34:05]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [34:05]
Scott Wheeler
And it's just like trying so hard to make things happen. I think at the expense of. Of sort of the. The IQ piece that Corey was hinting at and the playmaking piece that Corey was hinting at.
- [34:16]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. To Chris's point, like he was so good as an underage. There's a reason why he was so highly rated on a lot of boards. Not because nobody, nobody. He didn't play well. Nobody didn't watch him last year. He changed magically as a player or something like that. It's it. You know he was that good as a 16 year old in USHL.
- [34:30]
Scott Wheeler
August. August. 16 year old too.
- [34:32]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [34:33]
Corey Pronman
Like you look at what you know for a guy to dominate in the USHL is below like the OHL whl. But like just like you look at any like USHL major junior for a guy to be the best in the playoffs as a draft minus one, nevermind as a young 16 year old it's like almost unheard of. Like that never happens. Like that was. It was such an impressive stretch from him. So. And then just as time goes on you get new information. It hasn't been a lot of good information. You have to adjust. I would argue the best center here wasn't. It wasn't him and it wasn't Savanto. I would argue was Alexander. Command on Sweden and despite the fact that his two line mates, Marcus Nordmark and Upton Hermansen, they're really highly skilled. Herman sends among the leading scorers in the tournament right now. A little bit of an There. Six points against Denmark. He didn't show up in a lot of the other games, but that's besides the point. I really like command. I think he's for sure going in the first round. Yes, he's a. Yep. He's a 61 centerman who can skate. He has shown some offense. It's not high end offense. He's nowhere skilled as those two wingers. But he has a heaviness in his game too. And his offense is a little bit more simple. Like he's not. He doesn't. He's not the guy. He knows. He's not supposed to be the guy who makes the plays. But there's enough to his game where I can see a path where he could become like a third line center in the NHL.
- [35:53]
Max Boltman
How about Ryan Lynn Scott? I know that's a guy you've been high on. He's here at this tournament obviously as well, or was at this tournament as well. What'd you make of his play?
- [36:01]
Scott Wheeler
I thought Lynn had a positive tournament. I don't know that if you've watched Ryan Lynn for the last two years that he changed your view of who Ryan Lim is with this tournament. I thought he was just okay. Not. Not just okay. I actually thought he played well in the opener, but he was a little quiet in the opener. Like I wanted to see Ryan come out and just take over this tournament and have that kind of a moment. And he did have those moments over the course of the tournament in Finland against Finland in Canada's group play finale. He was far and away the best player on the ice for either team. Like he was the best player in that game. He took over that game. He won Canada that game. He played a to time throughout the tournament. I think he had a positive tournament. He was named one of Canada's three players of the tournament. He was the only defenseman that was named one of Canada's three players at the tournament. Him and Keaton Verhoff were basically one of the two of them was on the ice at all times for Canada. He was physical. He delivered a couple of big checks. I saw the Ryan Lynn that I think we've seen all year and that's how I felt at this point. And maybe that's just because we watched these kids all year and we know them by this point, but I felt that way about a lot of the top guys. Like I think Corey mentioned Nordmark and Herman said. Nordmark and Herman said kind of were what they've been all year. Nordmark was bad body language, selfish, and then made some plays and Hermanson came and went in games and Lynn was Lin and like that. That's kind of just who the. There weren't a lot of move, sort of needle movers, if you will. We talked about Gustafson and Colin being really good, but there's not a lot of guys. We were like, okay, this kid maybe looked. This kid surprised me. For better or worse, this kid looked different than he's looked or really took over. Really elevated. It just felt like a continuation, I think for Lynn in particular. I thought he was good.
- [37:47]
Corey Pronman
You still have Lynn top 10.
- [37:49]
Scott Wheeler
I do
- [37:53]
Max Boltman
more to come. Save this one.
- [37:54]
Verizon Network Advertiser
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- [37:55]
Max Boltman
We're gonna need this debate over the next two months. But here's an interesting thing, Corey, is that Scott just mentioned Keaton Verhoff. I would have Felt like, you know, Verhoff was. Was pretty good. You talked about this kind of becoming an underagers tournament. He was one of those underagers a year ago that we started talking about like, hey, this is a guy to. To really key in on for the 2026 draft. He plays a full season of college hockey, pretty good season of college hockey. I think I would have expected him to come to this tournament and be one of the first names we mentioned on this show. We got almost 40 minutes in in a conversation about Ryan Lynn before we mentioned Verhoff. That's not to say he had like a terrible tournament or anything, but shouldn't he have been kind of one of the big names that we've been talking about all show at this point?
- [38:33]
Corey Pronman
He wasn't on the power play. So it was a very interesting usage of him where they had Lynn, who I think deserves to run the first power play around. The first power play at the Helinko and he wasn't even on the second power play unit. I think he got a shift there towards the end of the their quarterfall game against Sweden when they were running out of options, it turns out how to score goals, but they didn't. Even though he had the most minutes of anybody on this team, they didn't really put him in a position to succeed and score a lot. Was it a great tournament? Wasn't a bad tournament, I don't think. But he definitely didn't. I think silence criticisms of his offense and his and his hockey sense and whether this is like a premier play driver at the next level. I think there's between him and someone like Lawrence is. Lawrence has had some questionable, you know, spots on his resume all season. Whereas with Verhoff, I think the body of work is a little bit more impressive where you go back to not only his prolific underage year like a Lawrence, but then he's a world junior player. You know, he had a good year at North Dakota, you know, playing a notable role on a, on a team, you know, one of the best teams in college hockey. So even if he didn't have a great tournament, I still think he had a good enough tournament to where I'm not overly concerned. I don't think he's the first defenseman off the board. I feel like that's kind of firmly Chase Reed right now and there's some minority opinions on some other players. Maybe Verhoff's there too, but I feel like he's very unlikely to go 1, 2, 3 right now if the draft Was today. He's probably, you know, three to six, four to six, four to seven right now. If I was doing a mock draft. So I kind of, like I said, not stock fallen, but stock nudged down, I would say it'd be the best way to disguise Verhoff right now.
- [40:17]
Scott Wheeler
I'd like to let the record show after Corey threw a shot, another shot at my Ryan Lynn opinion that I was waving the flag on Tynan Lawrence and Keaton Verhoff about a year ago.
- [40:30]
Chris Peters
And here's, here's the thing about Verhoff.
- [40:33]
Corey Pronman
I like Lord still more than Lynn. That's a whole other issue, though.
- [40:36]
Chris Peters
Yeah, here's, here's the thing with.
- [40:40]
Scott Wheeler
I have questions about Verhoff.
- [40:42]
Chris Peters
Yeah. So, like, I think the, I asked this to Corey, you know, I was like, hey, like I, you know, I haven't loved him, but it's like, does he look like, does he look like a top three pick? And the answer has to be no. I mean, and again, this comes back to the debate of in another draft year, where would they go? And almost exclusively being lower than they are in this draft. You know, I do think that with the Keaton Verhoff pick, whoever does make the Keaton Verhoff pick, you are making it on a, on a projection, not the body of work is fine. Like, like, yes, he had a very impressive underage season in the WHL last year. This year's body of work, I didn't like. I thought it was fine at points. I thought that there was a lot. But, but to me, it's all about the projection and what he can be relative. And I, I have, I feel like you're, if you take the player, you are accepting a fair amount of risk in that the hockey sense isn't where it needs to be and may not get there. That's one skill and trait that I think is very difficult to overcome. And I have seen more and more evidence this year that the decision making under pressure is not strong, that the decisions aren't always strong, and that that really the offensive and the understanding of when and how to jump into offensive opportunities is not very good at this point. And it was really exposed at the college level. And I think that that's one of the things that we're seeing is that as these top players come into college, and this was the same thing with Tyne and Lawrence, are they processing the game at a high enough pace in order to be a top level player? I think Keaton go, well, hang on. I think Keaton Verhoff is going to be an NHL player. He's going to be a good NHL player. But I think that if you are banking on him to be a top pairing defenseman, you're starting to see signs that that is like you're. You're hoping at that point rather than projecting.
- [42:45]
Corey Pronman
I still think there's a lot of similarity in his game and Aaron Ekbladz at the same age. Like, I still think that could be the projection there, which is. Which may be a top parent offensive, not the sexiest top parent defenseman in the world. Not a high impact guy, but a good player. About to list some names that are not the most inspiring names but. But they were really high picks recently. So, you know, I would say he's better at the same age than year Chuck was. I would say he's better at the same age than Kariakamchuk was. I would say he's better at the same age than David Reinbacker was. All guys who went big right shot defenseman who went very high in their NHL drafts. I would say he's at least analogous to where Simon Evanson was at the same age as a hockey player. Evans said maybe a little bit more pure skill. This guy may be a little bit better defender, but I think he's like, he deserves to be in this conversation still, like, you know, firmly.
- [43:30]
Chris Peters
I would say, yeah, I think, I
- [43:32]
Scott Wheeler
think Edvinson was a way better skater and defender. Like way better skater and defender than Verhoff.
- [43:38]
Corey Pronman
I'll give you the better skater. Yeah. But I think, you know, I'd argue that Verhoff even had a little bit more, you know, offense in his game than ever since Evans had more skill. I think Veroff better shot, better pro, better processing, evidence processing really scared me in his draft here. But my main point is not to, you know, go go through that argument. It's more that I still think that, well, you have a 6, 4 defenseman who can skate, who can make a pass, who can defend, who has a history of offense even if it's not elite offense. Like that's still to me like a premier piece. Like he's like he deserves to go very early in this draft, even if it's not as high as we once envisioned him going six months ago.
- [44:17]
Chris Peters
Right. That's, that's an important distinction too. Is that the difference between not being the number two overall pick and not be and then being, you know, six or seven is really not, especially this year, not a significant difference.
- [44:31]
Corey Pronman
Like there's people, people are getting like all Ornery by Dax and Rudolph right now. Like if, if Vera Hoff was in junior this year he would absolutely have done what Dax and Rudolph did this year. He just like he did the previous year. My, my opinion they've. They've played on the same team twice over the last 12 months. He's been clearly better than him both times. So just, just my opinion as we
- [44:53]
Max Boltman
talk about kind of the underagers though. I do you talked about how I think it was seven of the top 11 Corey, you said of this tournament were were for 2027 picks scores.
- [45:01]
Corey Pronman
No, no, no, no. I said seven of the top 11 scores in this tournament as we stand today are between the quarterback semifinal have been eliminated. However, the leading scorer of this tournament is Timothy Kazda who was an underage player playing on Slovakia and he has generated a lot, you know, made a lot of happy Slovakia fans here with with all the points and the goals he's been scoring. 20 goal scorer in the USHL this year for the Chicago Steel. Really skilled player. You know, some of the better players between him and Selleck have been. They've been underage players like again it's been a kind of a common trend we've seen in past years. The Czech team also that advanced semifinal full of really good underage players. Matthias Mihalik, if you haven't heard this name yet, he is going to be a very, very high NHL draft pick. Not this summer, not next summer, three, three summers from now. He is a 2010 birthday. He's a 6364 mobile puck moving defenseman. I think in that quarterfinal game against Finland I think he led their team at ice time. He is a very exciting prospect.
- [46:04]
Max Boltman
Alexi Joseph, I mean he's one of the big names we've been following Scott and only plays two games at this event.
- [46:11]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, they started him as the 2C and they quickly decided that he wasn't there to see. They gave him an opportunity in first game he played there in the pre tournament portion of the schedule for them. And then game two he was their 13th forward and game three we never saw him again. So definitely a disappointing couple of games. I think you have to try not to read too much into it. The concern I had in watching him in both of those games was that Canada clearly wanted their forwards to work and play with the kind of sort of go get it, stick to itiveness that a lot of their guys did. Tynan Warren, Zach Olson, Beckett Hamilton, Ryder Cowley, Adam Valentini. Like you go through the list of the players that they brought to this event. And that's this, that's the style that Drew Bannister wanted the team to play. And there was a lot of standing around, there was a lot of puck watching for Alexi Joseph. And if you've watched, there was a talk sort of early on in the 2027 draft process that there were sort of several players in the mix, Joseph being one of them for first overall next year. I think if you've watched Landon Dupont over the last couple of months here and then you watched Alexi Joseph here, you would be wondering what anybody who previously held that thought was thinking. So, yeah, a bit of a separation happening with Dupont and, and a guy like Joseph, but we'll see. Joseph's a great player. He's a 64 athletic center who can make plays. This, this will be a blip ultimately in the grand scheme of his career, but definitely notable at least that he wasn't a part of a team Canada that lost in the quarterfinals and that another 2027 in Jackson Jacobson came into the lineup and immediately injected some much needed offense into the group and helped out their power play in a way that Joseph didn't.
- [48:02]
Max Boltman
All right, so that'll be, that'll be for next year's draft 2027. We're gonna take a quick break right here. We're gonna come back, we're gonna talk about the lottery that is next week. And we're talking about what's at stakeholders and all the intrigue around it. You're back.
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- [49:52]
Max Boltman
All right, we are back and gentlemen, we are just a couple days away now from the NHL draft lottery that'll be on May 5th. We will be going live right after the lottery on the athletic hockey show YouTube channel. So make sure you subscribe and join us there so we can break it all down as it happens. But as we go in Corey, I want to start with just kind of what's at stake here because it's been such an up and down ride. I feel like with you know who we're talking about at the very top of the class, we talked about some names we once anticipated talking about and maybe won't be. It kind of seems like maybe all roads have indeed led back to Gavin McKenna.
- [50:25]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I mean he had just a tremendous second half of the season there for Penn State being one of the very best players in the Big Ten, winning Big Ten scoring title. I wouldn't say it's all but assured he'll be the number one pick, but I think as things stand now, I think he's the heavy favorite to be the number one pick. I feel like when talking to teams, I feel like the conversation, conversation between him and Ivor Stenberg. I feel like the league is definitely leaning much more towards McKenna over Stenberg right now. Again, that is not set in stone. There are definitely still people who prefer Stenberg, but I think the there is a notable majority lean towards McKenna. The only the thing that would give me pause is I still think there is a lot of appetite still for Chase Reed just because he's a 6, 3 mobile, you know, dynamic offensive player. That's a lot of really intriguing traits that I know will be talked about right at the top of the draft. Then the other one of note has been the play of Caleb Malhotra in Bradford lately who as we talked now I think is right around two points per game in the OHL playoffs currently as a six two, two way center. I think he is clearly delineating himself as the best center in the draft right now. And I think whether it's three, two or even one, I think there will be conversations about him at all, at all points at the top of the draft. Best centers go very early historically, and that's kind of where I think things stand out. I think McKenna betting favorite, but I, you know, would write it in pencil, not, you know, not in pen.
- [52:01]
Max Boltman
And that's one of those things that's going to get easier to handicap a little when we know the order right. Like you can kind of get a feel for what a team's preferences and directions are a little more when you have the actual order. So we'll obviously get into all that on May 5th when the lottery happens. But Scott, there's some, there's a lot at stake here for a few teams. There's some big, big markets at the top that are either at the beginning or who knows what phase when you talk about the New York Rangers and what a rebuild will look like in New York. But the Leafs, same deal. The Vancouver Canucks are up there. Which teams do you think have the most at stake? When the ping pong balls kind of
- [52:35]
Scott Wheeler
tell us their whims, it feels to me like the Canucks still have the most at stake. Like they finished 14 points lower than the next lowest team. And I think the chaos scenarios are always a big market winning it. Like if the Rangers or the Leafs win it, that is going to set Twitter and on fire and all of that. But I think in terms of what teams stand to lose, the Canucks just feel like they're so far away at the moment from anything of any real hope. And I know the market doesn't like their team and the market doesn't even when I raised my pool rankings, their market doesn't even seem to like their prospects, which is a very rare thing for a market to not like their prospects. And they just don't like outside of Z Boyam who had a difficult year. And like there's just, there's very little to look forward to. And the ownership is, is the ownership there. And that side of it I think is like them falling to three would be a terrible, terrible outcome for the Canucks. Even if you think that there are three or four players at the top of this draft, that would be a tough pill, I think for that organization to swallow more than, more than any other. And then yeah, Toronto, Toronto or the Rangers winning it or even Chicago Winning it again, I think that generates the most from a. Anger from opposing fan bases standpoint, and there's probably a lot of almost apathy if it's, if it's a Calgary or a Seattle or a Winnipeg or a Nashville or one of the smaller markets.
- [54:13]
Corey Pronman
I think Toronto definitely has the most to lose here. That there's like a 50% chance they could be picking 1, 2 or 5 and also a 50% chance that they cannot have a first round pick at all, to me is such enormous stakes because, you know, obviously their team was really bad last year both, you know, in terms of their result and on analytically, like, there looks like a lot of work there to do to get back to a competitive level, you know, next season. But like, to me, if you pick, you know, we've had this conversation all year, maybe Scott disagrees, but like, for me, the difference between Gavin McKenna and Stenberg or McKenna and Reed, or McKenna and Malhotra, McKenna and, and Smith's or Carl's, to me, the gap is not that significant. There's a gap, but there's not that significant. And for me, there's almost no gap for some of those guys. But that's not really like, if you, if the Canucks go from like 1 to 3, I still think they're getting basically the same player, in my opinion. Maybe you guys disagree, but to me they're basically getting the same level of prospect. If Toronto doesn't have a top five, gets a top five pick or no pick at all, like, that's a pretty significant change in results.
- [55:18]
Scott Wheeler
6th overall. And Frazier Minton for Brandon Carlo is, ooh, a tough pill to swallow.
- [55:26]
Chris Peters
Well, the, and, and the, and the administration that made it happen is no longer there to enjoy it. So that is, I mean, you know, who has the most to lose in this thing? I mean, I think it's Gavin McKenna. I think that he is a player, a number one overall pick that is so dependent on like, going into Vancouver. Given what's happening right now, I don't think would be a good spot for him. You know, I don't think he is. He, he could be tabbed as the savior and he's not going to be that, not in that scenario. And I think that that's a, that's a situation that, that is going to be very interesting to watch in, in, you know, like, if you go into a situation where you're not the guy, whether it's, you know, Chicago or if, you know, if it is Toronto, like, if it is Toronto, I think you're actually in a. That's a great spot for him to land because he doesn't have to be the guy. And also maybe it quiet some of the, the, the, the concern about losing other top players and maybe you're saying, oh well, we're not really rebuilding that much. Though I do think that Toronto could definitely stand to benefit from getting one of the top defensemen in this draft. So there's a lot of things there. But I do think like getting Gavin McKenna in the right scenario both developmentally and, and positioning him for success because I mean odds are whoever drafts him is going to sign him and get him into their system right away. And, and there's also my concern is that, is that even the right call for that team, you know, in terms of his readiness to, to be able to contribute, there's a lot of different things there. I think, you know, whoever gets him is going to sign him, he's going to go and, and I'm sure he'll be okay in year one. But I wouldn't be shocked if it was more similar to the, you know, the Jack Hughes Year one kind of situation than it would be for somebody else.
- [57:20]
Max Boltman
How about the most to gain? I mean, I'm looking at San Jose, I'm looking at Florida. These are two teams that could really benefit me. Certainly Florida, if you plug A. And granted the, I don't think the right shot D in this class are going to step into their lineup and be impactful next year, but it's a team that has a hole there. San Jose could really use an impactful right shot. Imagine if San Jose walks out of this with Chase Reed after everything they've come away with here. And it, it really, that's an organization that's already seems like they got jet fuel behind them. A lottery win here would add more.
- [57:47]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I, I think you're right, Max. Like, you know, especially, you know, San Jose, it just feels like they're, they're, they're getting closer to the cusp and if you add another high impact piece to your, to your fold here, you've got another one of those franchise building blocks and then, you know, anything to supplement the nuclear weapon that you have that is Macklin Celebrini is going to be, is going to be pretty big. But like I think you, you also look at the situations like a Florida where you've got a veteran group where you can usher in a younger guy a lot more easily than, you know, having like a Chicago where it's like they've handed the team over to the young guys and it's like, is that, you know, is that going to work? That's going to be interesting. But you go into Florida and you're like, well, this was a, this year was a blip. It was an injury riddled year. Now we also have a player. Not only is that player coming in potentially for next season, they're coming in at a, at a low rate of, of, of cost in terms of what it means for your salary cap. So the teams that have some of those cap constraints could really stand to benefit from a player like, you know, if it was a McKenna, if it is, you know, Chase Reed, I'm not 100 sold on, on, you know, really many of the players in this draft being able to jump right in, but if you're a, a place that can insulate that player like a Florida, that's a pretty good spot to be in. So. But there aren't many teams that are set up that way and maybe even like Winnipeg, maybe Winnipeg could be that team too where they've got that veteran group that can insulate a player.
- [59:16]
Max Boltman
All right, well, we got more to find out. When the ping pong balls drop as they are, make sure you join us on May 5th on YouTube for the Athletic hockey show that is going to do it for us today. Thanks for listening to this episode. You can of course catch more more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast called up. We'll talk to you soon.
- [59:36]
Chris Peters
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- [59:57]
Discover Advertiser
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- [60:21]
Verizon Mom Advertiser
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- [60:42]
Verizon Network Advertiser
America's best Network based on RootMetric's best overall mobile network performance US 2nd half 20254 new lines and a limited welcome and auto pay. See verizon.com for details.