Loading summary
Transcript101 lines
- [00:00]
Nutrafol Advertiser
Rally caps, lucky socks, never stepping on the foul line. Baseball is full of superstitions. We hope give us an edge. But let's be honest, most of it's just luck. That's how I used to feel about hair growth products until I found Nutrafol, the official hair growth partner of Major League Baseball. It's physician formulated, clinically tested and recommended by dermatologists. An actual game plan for thinning hair. Nutrafol has formulas for men at every stage. There's Nutrafol Men for Guys 1849 to help grow thicker, fuller hair in three to six months, and Nutrafol Men 50 plus, designed specifically for men 50 and up who want to keep the hair they've got. Go to nutrafol.com promo code baseball for $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. Find out why Nutrafol is the only hair growth supplement brand trusted by mlb@nutrafol.com spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code baseball that's neutralfull.com promo code baseball we spend over 40
- [01:05]
Parloa Advertiser
days of our lives on hold. 40 days. Crazy, right? Your customers think so too. That's why Parloa's AI agents are ready to talk 24 7, 365. From payment processing to roadside assistance. Reliable, natural sounding support in any language. Parloa remembers every customer interaction so no one has to explain themselves twice. Experience Parloa's AI agents in action at parloa.com foreign.
- [01:36]
Elliotte Friedman
This is Kim and Penn Holderness from Laughline.
- [01:38]
Thomas Drance
Summer is here, which means it's officially travel season.
- [01:41]
Elliotte Friedman
And when you're out there making plans, you need somewhere reliable to stay.
- [01:45]
Thomas Drance
That's why Best Western is such a
- [01:47]
Elliotte Friedman
solid option this summer. Get 1,000 bonus points and a chance to win 250,000 bonus points.
- [01:52]
Thomas Drance
So wherever you're headed, make it count.
- [01:54]
Max Bultman
With this limited time offer, life's a trip.
- [01:56]
Elliotte Friedman
Make the most of it@bestwestern.com no additional purchase necessary.
- [02:00]
Thomas Drance
For sweeps, see Bonus Points, T's and
- [02:02]
Max Bultman
C's and Swee Rules for details and
- [02:04]
Thomas Drance
visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. This is the athletic hockey show.
- [02:34]
Max Bultman
Hey everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Shayna Goldman for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. We are just minutes Shayna removed from the thrilling end of game two of the Stanley Cup Final. Carolina was down 20 with more than halfway through the third period. Actually, they come back, they win this one 4, 3 and OT. There was some drama at the end of the third period. It's a power play goal to win it in OT. We don't typically see too many power plays in overtime playoff hockey. Where do you start with a game like this? Coming off all that adrenaline that we just saw?
- [03:05]
Elliotte Friedman
I think we start with the fact that the Canes showed some life and we're the resilient team. And I don't want to say for a change that's dramatic. Right. It was only one game, but you look at how game one went and it was like, Carolina dominates the shot battle. Carolina dominates the scoring chances. They're up one, you know, up by a goal. But it doesn't matter because Vegas is so good. And it felt like Vegas had control. And then it's Carolina finds their way and battles back into this game and they literally. It starts with the puck battle from Stankhoven to get on the board. So that's like what I look at. Like, okay, both these teams can bounce back. Both these can be a little bit more resilient and they can play each other's game. I think a little bit more than any of their other playoff opponents so far.
- [03:46]
Max Bultman
Yeah, it's a growth win in that way for Carolina. I agree with you. I think crucially though, I mean, if this series was two, oh, headed back to Vegas, you're going to get some kind of demons in the head there. I think this is a prove something to yourself kind of game for the Carolina Hurricanes, and this is something they can keep going back to whenever there's adversity in this series. I mean, this is the. This is kind of what we know Vegas for. Right. Vegas is the team that's very comfortable playing from behind, that knows they're never out of it. And now Carolina has their taste of that as well. I want to talk about the two crucial power play goals that Carolina scored, one's in the third period. It comes after Vegas unsuccessfully challenged trying to get a goal it wouldn't be overturned because it wasn't called a goal on the ice. They're trying to get a goal put onto the scoreboard that it's kind of a scrum around the net. Instead, it's upheld. They lose the challenge. They have to go to the power play. Carolina scores to go up 3, 2. Did you have any issue with this sequence of events? When a challenge is thrown into the mix, it becomes so high stakes because they're either going to award a goal on a challenge or you're going to award a power play off the challenge. And those are the really the only two options here. And, and certainly we saw that Play out.
- [04:51]
Elliotte Friedman
Yeah, it feels like it was very messy, and I think the broadcasting honestly made it messier, right? Like, they're flashing to Dave Jackson, who's explaining things, and it feels completely out of sorts and uncoordinated on how it's being explained. So, you know, like, initially you see it and it's like, what is the challenge? It's for goalie interference, but now he's talking about intent to blow, and now it's like, wait a second. You have two things that don't actually go hand in hand. If it's intent to blow, the goalie interference doesn't matter, but then it turns out it does, so it's really convoluted. But I think it was a risky challenge in that I didn't look at that and go, oh, my God, that's goal interference. And when we look at goalie interference in the regular season, it's not very good. And we look at in the playoffs, and generally speaking, it's even worse. The turnover rate of, you know, the original calls. And it's because they want, the league wants it to be more egregious plays. We keep hearing that, right? Like, if it's these close by, you know, super thin margins, it's probably not going to get overturned. So it's risky in that regard, especially now that, you know, the game is all of a sudden within reach for the Canes here. But I didn't mind it, though. On the other hand, when you look at how inconsistent goaltender interference has been, and John Tortorella has been very outspoken about that since the day the challenges were put in place, he compared him to a box of chocolates and that you didn't know what you were going to get. You also add in the fact that the Canes power play, only scoring, you know, like, 4.3 goals per 60 this postseason, it's been terrible. And that Vegas's penalty kill has been absolutely elite. I don't mind that they threw the dart there. Why not go for it in that moment? Because, you know, it's still a tight game and you know your own strengths here, that it made sense from that respect.
- [06:33]
Max Bultman
When you saw the play live, did you think, good goal? Did you think this puck's frozen somewhere in here? Like, what was going through your head as you're watching it? There was a mad scramble there at the crease.
- [06:43]
Elliotte Friedman
I did not think it was a goal. I, I, you know, you listen to when the whistle was blown and where everybody was. It looked like Anderson made two saves and that if anything was going to, you know, trickle in the net after. It's like the plays that it doesn't matter. I didn't so much think it was goalie interference. I didn't, you know, I just looked at him. I don't think that's a goal. I don't think it was. I wouldn't have challenged in that moment for goalie interference. Like just being like a neutral person, that situation. I just didn't think it was a goal. I would have just moved on and kept playing.
- [07:13]
Max Bultman
That's the interesting thing. And I think it probably explains you call the kind of like messy analysis. That's to me the explanation for that is it's like we don't really know like what, why specifically it's not a goal. But I think looking at it, you kind of like, that's not a goal. But I would agree. I don't know where exactly the interference comes in, but I don't have a problem with them calling no goal on the play. And so that's, that's the trick.
- [07:35]
Elliotte Friedman
Did you see Ellie Friedman's tweet afterwards too, that it was that Dorothy have like pushed the puck into the net with his glove? I think he tweeted out too. So it's like.
- [07:42]
Max Bultman
So there's that as well.
- [07:43]
Elliotte Friedman
So there's that on top of it. But like you're watching the intermission afterwards and you still don't know what's going on.
- [07:49]
Max Bultman
No, I had not seen that. That's really interesting. No, I mean, yeah, there's a lot going on there. And the challenge is it's a leverage decision, right? You're just deciding is the potential goal. Let's say you have a 5% chance at that call getting or that that goal getting called for you. What are you willing to risk? Are you willing to risk a two minute penalty kill on that? And to your point, maybe they look at that and they see the Hurricanes and they say, yeah, that's worth it. 5% chance that a goal is worth whatever it's going to come by. It doesn't end up deciding the game. I think that's the key here is that for a second that looked like it to be a huge controversy because it was going to decide the game. The Vegas gets their own kind of weird goal to tie this game back up and it goes to ot and then there's another Carolina power play. And if that doesn't feel like the Hockey Cod's going, no, no, we were serious, I don't know what does. The trip itself, man, like it didn't feel like a malicious trip to me. It feels like something that we've seen be let go. But you look at the play, it's there. I mean, he's going for the puck, but he gets him tripped and. And Carolina quickly takes advantage of it to get the win.
- [08:53]
Elliotte Friedman
Yeah, I think it's funny. I think we can rationalize when those calls are going to get made, when they're not going to get me. Right. Like, if this is game five of any series, in that moment in overtime, that probably isn't getting called. But then you're like, okay, earlier in series, you have a better chance that getting called. But also, we're in the same, like, a final, not round one, and you have to, like, go through your head of, like, not just what you think it should be in a vacuum. And that's the whole part. It's the same with the other. You know, the decision to challenge or not in a vacuum is one thing, but within the context of the situation is another. You know, not the worst call in the. Like, not the worst penalty in the world, but they call it okay, so this is the hand that you're getting dealt, and it's gone both ways for both these teams all postseason long. Every team, every fan base is going to have complaints about the officiating one way or another, and that's completely true, and I hear that. But here it is, another penalty kill, and I thought for sure that they were going to kill it off. Especially when you see the way, like, Ajo was handling the puck in the. In. In the offensive zone. I feel like every time you touch the puck tonight, I was like, just don't. Just don't. Whatever you're doing, you don't have the juice there. But for Carolina to then score and for it to be someone like Seth Jarvis, who hasn't had the strongest postseason, like, it's a double momentum builder there, because that's the other part of it, too. Like the way Vegas has been killing off these penalties. They've been building so much momentum from those situations, more so than Carolina has with the power play. So that could have completely changed the tone of overtime had, you know, play continued from that point on.
- [10:15]
Max Bultman
Yeah, well, speaking of momentum, I mean, we talked about it very early this. This would look like a very different series if Vegas was taking this back home up to zero. Instead, it's 1:1. If you're Carolina, though, I mean, you were down 2:0 in this game until halfway through the third period. You lose game one, it's a close game one. And this certainly so far is setting up to be every bit the heavyweight Stanley cup final you would want. But if you're Carolina, you were at real risk of being in a very precarious spot. And I wonder if you look at that and you say, might be time to make some kind of tweak, or do you look at it and say, nope, we came back, we won the game, business as usual. How would you handle this?
- [10:52]
Elliotte Friedman
As Rod Brindemore, I'm still making tweaks because I think we have seen how Vegas has challenged the Canes already through two games and taken over play and control them. You can also see where they're targeting certain weak points. Like, I think Chatfield has looked really exposed at times already through two games. And you look at those top two lines and, you know, getting to the playoffs so far with the middle six, carrying all the offensive, like, heavy lifting is one thing, and it's such an improvement. When we think of, like last year, we were talking way too much about. It felt like the Canes fourth line and not about the top nine enough, right? So it's like there's been so many building blocks and the fact that they have the Stankhoven line and again, they delivered tonight and you have the Ehlers line, and they were great last game. Coming in with two goals and, you know, to start things off, that's great and wonderful. But at the end of the day, you need four capable lines in this situation, and that top line hasn't been doing it. And against a team like Vegas, I think it's even more important when you look at how Vegas has those three reliable scoring combinations at the very least, plus a disruptive fourth line. So I look at it, and I would be making a tweak to the AHO Jarvis Svetchnikov line, I think had they gone down to nothing, it probably would have been viewed as a desperation move. Now, it's. It's past proactive, right? But it's. It's reactive in the moment that you're making the tweaks at the right time. We saw a couple line tweaks today, but I. I would. I'd move Svetchnikov off that line. Honestly, I think you can make the argument for separating Jarvis and aho, but for now, I'm gonna say move Fetchnikov to the third line, put him with Ehlers and Jordan Stall. I don't think Ehlers should come off that third line because I think you're leaving your bottom six too exposed to Vegas and I. And I think you're hurting your depth in a different way, and you're still gonna have two lines going. So Stall plus Ehlers work together for all the reasons. Right. Like, we know Stall can battle in his own zone and get the puck to Ehlers, and that can allow him to just burst up the ice with speed and do what he does best. Put a playmaker, like, fetch a cough on that line. I think that could be really good for them. And then you have someone like Saul who's good at getting to the nephron area, and everyone clicks. It's the top line you have to figure out then. I don't know if Martinuk has the foot speed for that. I'm thinking of a guy like Jankowski to jump up to that top line. That would be the tweak I'm making.
- [12:58]
Max Bultman
So Jankowski or Martin hook. I mean, to me, I agree. You're not touching the second line. That's been your best line all postseason. Our great staff from our producer Jeff Canes, are nine. And, oh, when Stank given scores in this playoff, although they're like 9 and 1 in general, so it's. I guess it's not something 9 and
- [13:15]
Elliotte Friedman
2 this whole postseason. Worst things.
- [13:17]
Max Bultman
We have to have at least 12 wins because we're 13 wins now. Yeah, 13 and two this whole postseason. So I guess that makes sense. But Stankeven's line has been outstanding. But, yeah, I mean, like, to me, it's Martin. Like, you need a retriever, and I think Martin could fit that role just as well. I. I see what. What you're getting at, though, with. With Stall, between Ehlers and Svetchnikov, you have offense there, certainly. You have one of the great defensive players. You look at how Vegas has deployed their lineup so far, it is very much that way. There are three very compelling lines. Tomash Hurdle certainly seems to have found his game. With Colton Sissons and Mark Stone, you got the Howden, Carlson, Marner line. That trio is excellent. And of course, you have Eichel, Barbachev, Dorfayev. If you're able to kind of go three lines, verse, three lines, maybe that helps you. And maybe Martinuk is kind of the right flavor to kind of unlock a little bit more of Jarvis. Jarvis has the finishing ability. I mean, Svechnikov, that's what you mostly want from him. But if you need a retriever there, I guess that's the. That's the rationale.
- [14:13]
Elliotte Friedman
Yeah. And I think just someone that's going to mix it up a little bit. More and add a little bit more chaos of the. You don't need to look for the perfect chance because they're going to rush to the net for those second chances a little bit more. Because you look at that top line, I think it was more so last game, but I think you still saw it enough tonight. They're just looking for the perfect play way too often. And you see them, you know, these one and done rushes in the offensive zone because they're looking for that play, they don't make it. Someone shoots wide or high or they miss altogether and they're folding right back. If you can have someone that's going to make those retrievals and also just let them know, like, there's better ways to sustain this. And generally speaking, Jarvis and Aho are good at that. They just. It's not happening right now. So, yeah, that's. That's what I would be looking at. Just get someone in there to shake up that combination a little bit more and help them sustain zone time.
- [14:58]
Max Bultman
If I told you we were two games into this series and there had been a combined 16 goals already from two of the five best defensive teams in the league, what would you have said?
- [15:07]
Elliotte Friedman
I would say the defense isn't working in the goaltending showing their true colors at this point. Right. Because I think with Anderson, you can have the fatigue conversation too. Like, he has not played this kind of workload in a while and it's. It's one thing to do it, you know, on a nightly basis and have, you know, someone stepping in every three or four games. He doesn't have that. Obviously they haven't played a ton here, had a few overtimes. They've had a lot of breaks in between all their games. But you could have that conversation or just be like, oh, look, the pressure. Whatever you want to have, whatever you want to say. And you know, I don't think Carter Hart has been great. I think he stepped up against Colorado. I think his team does so much of the heavy lifting. So if I were to see those scores, like, not knowing anything, I'd be like, so everyone stop playing defense. That would be my only guess.
- [15:47]
Max Bultman
Yeah. And I think the goaltending was. Was a question coming into this. I can't wait to hear from Jesse Granger on. Because he was talking about both goalies in the consmy conversation before this series. I wonder if the ship might already be kind of sailing on that potentially. Brett Howden's making a heck of a case. Obviously. Mitch Marner's playoffs. Unreal Stank Evans Playoffs Unreal. And we're not done yet so there's a whole lot more to come there. Let's take a quick break.
- [16:08]
Elliotte Friedman
Break.
- [16:09]
Max Bultman
Thomas Drance is going to join us when we get back. Summer always changes how I get dressed. I want pieces that feel lighter, more breathable. Things that are easy but still put together. That's why I keep coming back to Quint's. They focus on high quality essentials that feel and look amazing. Think breathable linen, soft organic cotton, well made basics but without the luxury markup. It's that rare balance where everything feels elevated but still effortless. Quint's European linen pants and shirts are the perfect warm weather upgrade to add to your rotation starting at just $34. And if that feels low, yeah, everything at Quint's is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you're paying for quality, not brand markup. I've got one of their polos. It's perfect for me in the summer where I want to look professional but I gotta be comfortable. So to elevate your summer wardrobe, go to quince.com Athletic Hockey for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com Athletic Hockey for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com athletichockey.
- [17:24]
Elliotte Friedman
Have you tried Rothy's Casual clog? It has sold out 10 times for a reason. It really is that good. With a luxe extra comfy footbed and easy sleek design. Rothy's Clogs are a celeb favorite shoe. Visit rothy quies.com and read what nearly 6,000 reviews have to say about these best selling clogs. That's R O t H y dash
- [17:46]
Grainger Advertiser
s dot com when you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [18:21]
Max Bultman
All right, we are back and we are joined now by the Athletics Thomas Drance from the Combine in Buffalo. Drancer we talked about the game in segment one, although feel free to Add any observations you have as we go here. But I want to talk to you about where the series heads from here and what you've seen so far through two games. Has there been anything through games one and two that has dramatically changed your opinion of this series?
- [18:42]
Thomas Drance
Yeah. Well, first of all, I saw a truly legendary performance during game two, and that was at Sidelines Bar in Buffalo, where I was with Peter Baugh.
- [18:51]
Max Bultman
Oh, yeah.
- [18:52]
Thomas Drance
I was doing this podcast, so I only had one and. And left after the second period. But right before I left, Peter Baugh, who, by the way, is, like, on a tear, working the room, just killing it up at the combine. Peter, of course, is our intrepid New York Rangers reporter or New York area hockey reporter for the Athletic. Right before I left, he put in an order that I. Like, I missed the order, so I just saw when the food arrived, but he put in an order, and right before I left, a brownie with, like, four dollops of whipped cream and a scoop of ice cream arrived at the bar.
- [19:24]
Elliotte Friedman
I thought you were gonna say Dirty Shirley's. I thought you had a tray of Dirty Shirley's. Gonna be like, yes, that's my guy.
- [19:29]
Thomas Drance
I was. I. I was so stoked. I was like, man, he ordered a hot fudge brownie at the bar.
- [19:36]
Max Bultman
This. This is the Peterbox experience is he will order something, and you'll be like, what are you, 14? And then it gets delivered, and you're like, oh, I kind of want that.
- [19:45]
Elliotte Friedman
You're like, you're an inspiration. You're a legend. Whatever. You're. Whatever he's ordering in the future, like, yeah, next time, we all have this. We have to be like, whatever he has, we'll have to just get. For the whole table.
- [19:56]
Max Bultman
Tell the waitress. You tell the waiter or waitress before the night starts, you're like, I'm going to order, but whatever he wants, you change my order to that.
- [20:03]
Elliotte Friedman
If I'm not near him. Still bring me what he's having. Okay. Just surprise me. Slice of cake, whatever it might be, I don't care.
- [20:10]
Thomas Drance
So that was my. That was my biggest picture takeaway. As. As for the series, here's what I'd say. I think the Vegas Golden Knights are giving the Carolina Hurricanes all that they can handle for a really specific reason, which is that they are so polished, right? They never seem to. And this was until the Rasmus Anderson play, which is why I felt like that was such a big turning point in this game. They never feel like they're going to bobble a puck, right? They are so precise. They're clean out. Right. Their, their forechecking position is super aggressive, but everyone's in the right lane. Like to a man, they are just such a precise, finely tuned group. I mean, they are a heck of a team. And this Carolina Hurricanes team thrives on chaos stress hockey, as Rod Brindamore calls it explicitly. Right. They are designed to cause you duress and capitalize off the mistakes that you make. And for 50 minutes, Vegas played a totally clean game. And then off of a draw, five foot what, seven and a half. Logan Stankhoven Bull rushes Brett Gordy Howden
- [21:17]
Elliotte Friedman
and
- [21:19]
Thomas Drance
basically knocks him off balance, goes and pressures Rasmus Anderson down low, forces that turnover. Beautiful wraparound. And, and from there it did feel like finally the Hurricane speed advantage began to play in the series. Not that Vegas had been all over them by any means. I mean, these, these, both of these games were wafer thin, thin margins decided at the, at the absolute death of the game. One in overtime, one late in the third period. Like there's not a lot of margin between these teams. But I think the fundamental dynamic that we've now seen and that I thought we saw really crystallized in that third period was that if Vegas can play their polished game and avoid mistakes, they're probably going to win the Stanley Cup. And if Carolina can find ways to stress Vegas out and prevent them from playing that sort of stodgy, polished hockey, then they're probably going to find a way. Unless, of course, Vegas has simply made a deal with the Devil to win the Stanley cup, which I'm not ruling out. Slavin scoring an own goal with like a half minute remaining after John Tortorello was too conservative with the goalie poll following Barbershev selling that call on Jackson. Blake, which was anus, by the way, I mean, a really offensive dive. You know, I, I think that moment really made me question. And, and look, there's a lot of reasons to question it, but I was like, I think Vegas is up to black magic. They have been getting away with this and stealing games in exactly this manner all playoffs. And, and it clearly is not going to stop. Well, Jarvis did ultimately stop it in overtime and now we've got a pretty epic game two under our belts and a heck of a series that's level heading back to Vegas.
- [23:00]
Elliotte Friedman
You mentioned Rasmus Anderson and he's like, he's such an interesting one because it does feel like he's probably just going to extend in Vegas. They, that's what they do. But also, you know, it's like his value dropped off immediately after the trade. It feels like Tortorella helped him get back on track. And then the big moments like this, you're like, actually, maybe not. How do you think we're going to see this all play out? Because he's a right handed defenseman, he's going to get paid. Someone will pay him. Right. But it doesn't feel like he's losing money this postseason or it just doesn't matter because he's right handed.
- [23:29]
Thomas Drance
Well, it also, I mean, I don't, I don't know if they've got like a deal in the drawer, right? Yeah, for all we know. But you know, at the end of the day, Rasmus Anderson, veteran player, right handed, had more goals than God this season. I, I think he's going to safely get paid given the other options available. I mean, John Carlson's 34. I want to say, I think that,
- [23:49]
Elliotte Friedman
I think you are very conservative on that age.
- [23:51]
Thomas Drance
I think I'm all wrong. Okay, well, everyone else is 34 then. I think it's. Maybe it's Troopa who's 34. All the other guys are 30.
- [23:58]
Elliotte Friedman
Oh my God, he's only 36. I thought he was like 38. Sorry.
- [24:01]
Thomas Drance
I know they're all even numbers. It's all 34, 32. Maybe it's Gudis who's also point is all the other right handed options are either radish or 32 plus. Right. I think that works in Anderson's favor. I think he'll still break the bank given the fundamental dynamic of this free agency period too, where I expect teams to have more cap space than good ways to spend it. And that should tilt heavily in, in Rasmus Anderson's favor, you know, despite the fact that, yeah, his, his speed, especially on a blue line that already lacks it and that then lacked Depth After Braden McNabb got hit, you know, in, in the nose. I mean, brutal. I hope he's okay. That was hard to watch. But yeah, I did feel like that stressed out the Vegas defense additionally too. And, and eventually, well, not eventually because for the most part I thought they got out clean for 50 minutes tonight. But, you know, as that game went along and especially as that third period turned, it felt like McNabb's absence and the speed of Vegas's defense began to pose some issues for them.
- [25:07]
Max Bultman
This is what's amazing about Vegas though, is I've spent the whole playoffs trying to figure out, well, who's going to be their cap casualty for them to sign like an Anderson and everyone who I think it might be ends up popping off to a level it's like, well, now they're not going to let that guy get away, right? You're not, certainly not going to let Pavildora Fiev get away. For a second, I was like, oh, what about Ivan Barbashi? Ivan Barbashev has been pretty damn good. What about Tomas Hurdle? Tomash Hurdle comes up huge in game one of these playoffs. Right, I see you want to stick on the Dora Fev thing. Say your. No, no, no.
- [25:34]
Elliotte Friedman
Let's go. Let's hear it. Let's hear it.
- [25:35]
Thomas Drance
No, I. I'm just saying I think you're vastly under. Underestimating the ruthlessness with which Vegas operates. There is nobody under the sun, right?
- [25:43]
Elliotte Friedman
Like, including, you know, bestie Mark Andre Fleury.
- [25:47]
Thomas Drance
Well, I know they're ruthless, but I'm
- [25:49]
Max Bultman
saying, like, I'm saying all the guys that I would have thought, yeah, this is the guy who they're going to be ruthless with have stepped up in a way that's like, oh, maybe that guy's earned in his keep now, other than Aiden Hill, who it seems like now is the obvious answer to this question.
- [26:00]
Thomas Drance
Yeah, and I think Aiden Hill is the obvious answer to this question. Although, man, I'm not. I'm not ruling out, you know, immediate members of Kelly McCrimmon or George McPhee's family. Right. Like, this is how the Vegas Golden Knights do business. This is why they win. They are very serious about winning. They will do whatever it takes to do so. Whatever it's going to take to open up cap space, they'll do, like, whatever makes the most sense. Whatever deal, you know, provides the best return or is the easiest to facilitate or works on the timeline that they need it to work on so that they can add another star player. I mean, that's, you know, what I expect them to do ultimately. So, you know, as well as some of these guys have played, and basically, to a man, everyone on Vegas has played well, I can't imagine that anything would be off the table.
- [26:46]
Max Bultman
Yeah, yeah.
- [26:46]
Elliotte Friedman
It feels like they can't at this point. Right? Like, and every single player they'd go to sell right now, they could sell high on. That's. That's their benefit. Like, every. You can't look at that lineup and go, okay, like, who. Who doesn't want Ivan Barbachev? Who doesn't want Hurdle if they were to say, that's who we're moving out right now. But, like, with Dorothy, if he's maybe the most Interesting one too, because Vegas know, he knows how he works in their system. They know the flaws of his game. They know it. Any other team is going to be diving at him. Like, it feels like that could be the riskiest bet of all too, because if you don't give him a good playmaker or someone who's good defensively to help drive play, are you going to get the version of Dorothy we've seen in Vegas? Probably not, right?
- [27:21]
Thomas Drance
Yeah. I mean, Jonathan Marsha so won them the Con Smythe playing on a line with Jack Eichel. I mean, we know that they're comfortable walking away from the linemate that scores off of the Jack Eichel crossing passes. Like, we. We legitimately know that for sure that they believe that they can replace that guy. So for me, anyway, I would just say if history is the best predictor of future behavior, you know, the, the Dorothy of case, I feel like, has the cleanest, you know, example that we've legitimately seen them execute just in the last, what, two and a half years.
- [27:54]
Max Bultman
That's a very. I completely forgot how soon after Marchesau's Con Smythe he was allowed to go.
- [27:59]
Thomas Drance
That was it a year, like 12 months. I mean, very, very quickly.
- [28:03]
Max Bultman
Yeah, you made, you made the joke about the deal of the Devil. Would it made you more. Make you more surprised to hear Vegas did a deal with the Devil or that they lost the deal with? Because I think they're winning that deal too. Most likely. They find a way.
- [28:15]
Elliotte Friedman
Yeah, they're teaming up with the Devil. They're not making deals. They're just going to team up with them at that point.
- [28:20]
Thomas Drance
You know what for sure.
- [28:22]
Max Bultman
Signing them to eight by six.
- [28:23]
Thomas Drance
Yeah, they made a deal with the Devil. Turns out they got the best player in the trade. Yeah, that's right.
- [28:29]
Max Bultman
Yeah, that's right.
- [28:29]
Elliotte Friedman
The team named the Devils are like, wait, how do we do this? We're the Devils. We should be winning this now.
- [28:35]
Max Bultman
Well, Dranser, I shudder to ask this after the day I've had today, but what's the scuttlebutt at the combine?
- [28:41]
Thomas Drance
Yeah, I mean, first of all, I'm a. I'm a novice covering the combine, as you know. Max, you were very kind to present me with a whole package of. Of do's and don'ts before I arrived. I quite like it, honestly. I'm just setting up at that Marriott sort of cafeteria thing. I've got a full restaurant lobby. Restaurant. Okay. I'm bugging everybody and, and chatting and it's been a lot of fun scuttlebutt at the combine. I mean, obviously, huge news today with the Dylan Larkin thing. I'm sure you'll have takes to get into on that in the next segment, but yeah, I mean, for me, anyway, it's mostly just been chatting with as many of the top guys. Obviously, I'm focused on the Vancouver Canucks. They have the third overall pick. So really it's been for me about sort of getting to as many of the top five to 10 projected picks before they start doing the real media availabilities. So, you know, Stenberg and. And Bjork and some of the defenders. And I. I certainly had to grab the rucks today. The Ruck twins, Liam and Marcus Ruck, who are from a Soyuz bc. So of particular regional interest to. To Vancouver Canucks fans.
- [29:48]
Max Bultman
Yeah.
- [29:48]
Thomas Drance
And I couldn't believe how personable they are. One. One thing that's different about this draft that I've noticed is you're sort of talking to people and going down the list and oftentimes you get sort of the, like, yeah, yeah, you should look into that kid. You know, like, I know the numbers are good, but none of that. None of that this year. Like, this seems to be a pretty, you know, wholesome, high quality, high character group of sort of draft eligibles this season, which is, you know, refreshing and interesting and very much reflected in a variety of the conversations I've had. Pretty much everyone I've chatted with has been very impressive to me. So, yeah, that's. That's what I've been up to. Just. Just sort of trying to fill the notebook with prospect notes and details. And this year, too, I guess the one thing that's really different is there's like, the college commitments beat.
- [30:35]
Max Bultman
Yeah.
- [30:36]
Thomas Drance
Right. There's a lot more, you know, a lot of these players, whether they're committing to Div. 1 schools or not, are going touring Div 1 schools afterwards. Right. There's a lot of this sort of college politicking, which is completely new. The Wild west, effectively, as sort of this new layer above the CHL and beneath the ahl, has been created in North American pro hockey. I think it's good for everybody to have options. Right. And. And you're sort of hearing kids think through, like, am I physically ready to play in college? Do I want to spend another year, now that I've graduated from high school and major junior, like, build my confidence, spend more time in the gym and go in 2027 to the Div 1 programs? I. I also think that, you know, one thing that's going to be interesting to watch with guys like Landon Dupont, your 2027 top draft eligibles, is like, are we sure that McKenna and Verhoff, right, the two top prospects who did take the college route, like, are we sure this helped their draft stock? Right. And I think there's a lot of, you know, agents and representatives or what are they called still advisors. Advisors who are still working through some of those, you know, political considerations, too, in terms of where should we play? Where. Where's the best place for us to play pre draft, you know, in our draft first or first draft eligible season. So been a lot of sort of that side of this chatter, too, which feels completely new and a little bit foreign to me, but very interesting to hear kids talk about it and work through it themselves and, you know, sort of talk through the strategy of it all, too, with a variety of the representatives.
- [32:13]
Max Bultman
It is fascinating because on one hand, it feels like, you know, from where McKenna and Verhoff were coming in, you almost have to say it hurt their draft stock. And yet on the other hand, you can look at it and say, but it might still have helped their development. And so there's the trade off, right? Like, one's better for you on June 26, 2026. What's going to be better for you on October 10, 2027, or whatever, right? And the answer might come out NCAA. It's very interesting. While we have you, I got to ask you about Melhotra. The big news in your neck of the woods in Vancouver this week. You know, there's a lot to get into here, but I want to get overall thoughts from you. And then what does it mean for his son, Caleb Malhotra, who is a very real candidate for the Canucks in the draft.
- [32:53]
Thomas Drance
A very real candidate. So, you know, the Canucks have effectively executed the Abbotsford succession plan. Plus. Right. Plus the city twins, Ryan Johnson and Manny Malhotra have worked together as the head coach and the general manager of Vancouver's American League affiliate, the Abbotsford Canucks, for the last two years. They won the Calder cup together in 2025. They were never teammates, but they've, you know, spent six of the last 10 years in the Canucks organization in various roles. Obviously developed a very close working relationship and a whole lot of trust down in Abbotsford across the last two years. I think there was never much suspense that if Rian Johnson got the general manager's job, that Manny Malhotra would be his guy. And that's. That's what's come to pass after you Know, maybe a slightly protracted period of negotiations just to get this deal across the finish line. Malhotra, I think, is a really good pick for where Vancouver is. And where Vancouver is is effectively enduring the competitive oblivion of an open ended rebuild that's very much just, you know, at its genesis. This is going to probably involve some pain. This is probably going to involve Manny Malhotra coaching a deeply overmatched team more nights than not for at least a season, probably several. It's going to be a long time before the Canucks play a game against an NHL opponent who, when healthy, doesn't have the best player or two in their lineup. Like that's just baked in given the Canucks circumstances at the moment. You know, barring a miracle Elias Patterson bounce back or you know, a return to not just health but durability for Thatcher Demko. And so, you know, given those stakes, I think the fact that Malhotra is such a calm and deliberate communicator, the fact that he's got so much weight both from his time as a player and because he delivered, you know, the, the first professional championship in Vancouver Canucks franchise history to the Fraser Valley, he's got so much weight in this market that I, that I kind of think there is a little bit of a Marty St. Louis straight line that you can draw or comparison that you can make in terms of what his impact could be in terms of sort of selling hope or process, at least during what's likely to be some seasons with a significant amount of losses. So, you know, from that angle, I thought you could see what Malhotra's impact will be from, you know, I don't want to say like a marketing or PR strategy standpoint, but certainly that side of it was on display on Thursday morning when he was introduced in that sort of makeshift video room slash media room in the bowels of Roger's Arena. As for the Caleb Malhotra factor, you know, he, he had a completely lights out Ontario Hockey League playoffs, but he's really never been a top scorer on his teams. And that's at the GTHL level, that's at the BCHL level. You know, last season, the bchl, I mean, what, he was like sixth among forwards on his team in production and that's in his draft minus two. This was his rookie OHL season. By the end of the year, he was outperforming frame mogging, as the kids say, Jake o'. Brien. And that's a, that's a good sign because Jake O' Brien's a top player and a top 10 pick from last year. He's big, he's got tools, he's got speed, he's a really gifted playmaker. And scout's assessment of his playmaking skills predates his offensive breakout. I'd add too that it's not as if when you look at his OHL production and the, and the playoff dominance that he demonstrated down the stretch, it's not like it's percentage driven. At least, at least like it is a sort of volume based output spike. So at least there's something to take from there. I guess the bet with Malhotra would be that he's on this Beckett, Seneca like trajectory that, that what he showed in the second half of the season is real and demonstrates, you know, a level of Progress that in 18 months, two years will continue and he'll lap the field. And you know, the fact that he wasn't that productive in his D minus two seasons won't matter when you're assessing him against a guy like Viggo Bjork, who was a historic age 16 player in, you know, the Swedish J20 and just had the best SHL season we've seen from a centerman since the early 1990s. Right. 30 years. So that's the bet. Do I love the bet as a probabilistic thinker, like, not really. It scares me, I'll be honest with you. It's, it scares me as an analyst that it feels like the Canucks are, I don't want to say like dead set on, but strongly considering once again taking tools right ahead of a lengthier track record of production and dominance of a peer group. Yeah, but, but that does feel like sort of where this is likely going. Rian Johnson's been very clear to communicate that he's not willing to, and this is a quote, sacrifice the best player available just because he wants Manny Malhotra to be the head coach. Malhotra discussed it today, had a pretty funny line about how in his house when he talks to his son, his son gets to choose whether or not he wants to talk to dad or coach and he
- [38:14]
Clio Advertiser
ever been at the checkout wishing you had more cash to spend? You're watching the total climb, doing mental math, getting ready to put your favorite yogurt back. It's the worst. Clio lets you access an up to $250 cash advance fast so you can cover your groceries without the panic. No interest, no credit checks, just simple flexible repayment. Get up to $250 with Clio and keep grocery shopping stress free Depending on
- [38:41]
Max Bultman
eligibility, you can get up to a $250 cash advance. Terms and conditions apply.
- [38:47]
Parloa Advertiser
We spend over 40 days of our lives on hold. 40 days. Crazy, right? Your customers think so too. It's why Parloa's AI agents are available 24, 7, 365 in every language. No, wait. Just great outcomes. Learn more@parloa.com
- [39:05]
Wayfair Advertiser
hey there, it's Wayfair here, where delivery and setup are as easy as a few taps on your phone. You're relaxing in an old hammock, scrolling Wayfair's app when you spot it, a brand new patio set. Next thing you know, Wayfair delivers it right to your patio and sets it up. Oh, you need a new grill too. All right, Wayfair's got you covered. With Wayfair's room of choice delivery and fast expert setup on qualifying orders, life gets a little easier. Visit Wayfair.com or the Wayfair app.
- [39:31]
Elliotte Friedman
Wayfair Every style, Every home
- [39:36]
Thomas Drance
says when it comes to matters of hockey, his son always chooses coach and that he thinks he could handle it. I, I don't know that it was a full blown endorsement of the situation and I'm sure on some level it's complicated, but the team has certainly been very clear with Malhotra in hiring him to be the head coach. Manny, of course, that, you know, they're not going to preclude themselves from taking Caleb if they believe he's the best player still available on the board simply because they've hired Manny. So that's sort of where we're at and it'll be fascinating to watch how it all unfolds. By the way, for, for all my analysis of this, you know, I think Caleb's a really high end prospect. You know, I think he's the sort of prospect that is a very good bet in sort of the 6 to 7, 8 range, right? Like he's, we're not talking about a guy who doesn't belong in the top 10 or, or some massive reach.3 to 6 for me would be a reasonable range for him to go. I just think when you look at some of those profiles, you know, verhoff being the third 17 year old NCAA defender in the last 20 years to have over 20 points. And the other two are Warrensky and Hannifin, right? Or you know, Viggo bjork, most productive SHL 17 year old center in 30 years. Or you know, Stenberg, the most productive SHL 18 year old since William Nylander. And on and on. I just Think three is a little bit rich for a player whose track record as like a dominant point producer against his age group really only exists for about six months.
- [41:11]
Max Bultman
Yeah, no, there's a lot. I mean, it's always a question with the late risers you mentioned. Seneca can also be Brady Martin, who had a great close, and it can also be Mason McTavish. I mean, that was the COVID year, but his U18 worlds, and he goes third, and in a redraft, he's not going third. In fact, you're probably wishing you had taken the winger and Dylan Genther in that case. So a lot to get to there for Vancouver. Great stuff, transfer. Thanks for doing this. We're gonna take a quick break right there and be right back. Great stuff again by Thomas Drance from the combine chain. I just wanted to close today by talking about the big story Thomas alluded to at the top there. It's been obviously a huge story in my world today, the Dylan Larkin trade request. I know my reaction here. I want to hear an outside opinion here. Like, what did you think when this was all breaking first by Elliot Friedman from Sportsnet?
- [41:57]
Elliotte Friedman
I mean, it was shocking, right? Like, the timing of it all. We're not quite up to, like, the draft week where you expect to hear bombs drop a little bit more. And also it feels, you know, a little more shocking because last year, the combine, it felt so buzzy from the outside, like, oh, could this be the cool new place everyone goes? And you're going to have trade rumors dropping left, right and sideways because the draft isn't in person, and it doesn't feel like that was the case this year. And then this just comes out of left field and you're like, okay, so this is what's happening. But, like, once you digest it for a second, it makes sense, honestly, from Larkin's perspective, in that the Red Wings for years have not done enough, and now you see other Eastern Conference teams moving on around them, and that has to be frustrating. The Canadiens, the way they executed this rebuild, they go to the conference final, it doesn't matter that they were bad in it, right? Like, they made it there. The Sabres are in round two, and that's been a team that's been spinning its wheels for so long. Ottawa made it to the playoffs. Yes. They got swept. The Flyers were here. They're not, you know, their timeline shouldn't be here yet. And then you think about the Red Wings along the way and all of the progress they make to a certain point, right? Every year in March, they Hit March, they hit a wall. And every year we ask, what's management going to do to get them through that wall? Right. And every year the approach is they're just not ready yet. And maybe there's a point to it, maybe they're just not ready. Maybe it's not the time to spend your assets. But they actually did it this year, and that's what made it a little more shocking to me. They did it. Is it the greatest trade in the world? No. But did it make sense in their situation of actually making a move and finally buying in, which sends a sign to your team of like, okay, we take this playoff window seriously and it starts now. Obviously, it doesn't work out, but you can see the frustration build up for a player when you know it hasn't worked out. And that's why we looked at guys like Kyle Conner getting overpaid a little bit. It's like, well, what has Winnipeg done? Kurok Preisoft overpaid a little bit in Minnesota, but what has the Wild done that there has to be some good faith of saying, this is what you get for staying with the team that can't make it past the first round. They finally buy. It's just not enough that you go, okay, I understand from Larkin's perspective, especially after the year he had, that maybe you want the opportunity to finally compete. And, you know, we're seeing players kind of take a little more control of their careers, as they should, especially in today's world, like, if you're not getting to free agency, which never happens, maybe you do need to advocate for yourself a little bit and push for a trade when it seems like we have the perfect market for a deal to happen.
- [44:16]
Max Bultman
Yeah, I mean, it's a very interesting trade market that he's joining potentially. I mean, there's already some really big names out there, and you wonder just how dramatic of a player movement off season we could be in store for. The first place my mind went was the end of year press conferences from last year. And I'll tell you that last summer I was a little bit, like, kind of on alert of like, I wonder if something could happen. Because Dylan Larkin talked about, you know, didn't do anything at the trade deadline and that hurt morale. And that was, I think, a very honest answer by Dylan Larkin. I think that was true. And then Steve Yzerman kind of came back and said, you know what? Like, Montreal and St. Louis didn't do anything at the trade deadline either, and they still made the playoffs led by their best players. And I thought that was very pointed comment at Dylan Larkin. And so from that point on, I wondered about that and when nothing happened last summer. And then Niserman adds John Gibson, he trades his first round pick for Justin Falk this year. To me, that seemed like, okay, he's kind of doing what Laren wanted him to do. And so I was not expecting this news today, and I was not expecting it at all this summer. It definitely caught me by surprise. And, you know, again, from, from within, I look at this and I say, okay, the Red Wings now are going to be at a huge crossroads this offseason. One they have to decide, like, are they going to honor this request right away? And I don't know if that's a given or not. Like, it seems like when, when we hear of something like this, when something like this gets out, typically a trade does follow. And I would obviously think that's the most likely, you know, explanation or avenue this summer. But even if they do, and I don't, again, I don't think it's a 100% certainty that it just happens like that between now and the draft, even if they do go that route. You're deciding now if you're the Red Wings, like, are you going to basically continue what you thought your timeline was knocking on the door. Are you going to try to replace Larkin with another right now, number one center that can try to help you get into the playoffs this year in addition to all the other moves you're going to have to have to make anyway, top line or top six, at least forward? I think you're gonna have to remake the bottom six a little bit. There was going to have to be work to do already before you talk about Dylan Larkin. So do you continue on that path or do you pivot a little bit and you say, take a step back, retool this. It might mean another year, maybe another two years outside the playoffs. But you're. You start to kind of go back to collecting younger players, giving younger players opportunity. You push Marco Casper, Nate Danielson up the lineup a little sooner than I think you would have in a world where you're. It's playoffs or bust, and those are. That's a very big fork in the road for the Red Wings to now navigate here with this news.
- [46:47]
Elliotte Friedman
Yeah, we, we wrote about it last week. What do they need? Franchise forward. Okay. If they don't have a franchise forward, they still have all this other work to do. Does it even matter? And now it's like, okay, so this is your Number two forward to that or your number three forward to that. You know, it's. It's a really difficult position for the Red Wings. And it's interesting. You think about the other Atlantic Division risers and you think of the Sabres, like when they had to trade Jack Eichel. Yes. The teams were in slightly different positions, right. Because I think Sabres were a little bit more behind the ball at the time, but it did kind of reset their timeline. You have to think of that as, like, the next start of their next retool. And obviously, it's different. A team like Detroit or Buffalo retooling versus, say, the Bruins doing it. Like this older team that has nothing in the cupboards, like, the Red Wings have that. So maybe you could play it a little bit differently. You can speed up your timeline. You can take one year if you're smart enough with it. Aggressive. Aggressive enough with it. Because they could be adding something in return for Larkin. They can be taking that and flipping it. Then they can go out and they have other assets to move. And, like, they could play this that, you know, it's one year of work to really pay off. And now you have this really great window with Raymond and Cider were both in perfect age ranges for this to make it all click. And Edmondson, too. Like, it's not like this is an aging team against this ticking clock. If anything, Larkin was part of the aging ticking clock because he was the only true, true, true core player. You know, that is, you know, 31st.
- [48:12]
Max Bultman
DeBrincat's getting there, but I agree with you. He. Larkin pretty much was the ticking clock.
- [48:17]
Elliotte Friedman
Yeah. And now it completely changes. And in this market, when you look at the price of centers, like, it's all the options, but it's like they hold the cards and now they need to hold them. Right? So it's like it's a twofold thing because the market's probably going to get held up now. Who knows what happens with Trocheck or Thomas or anyone else until this gets settled. And now you're hearing other names like say some things to the he share rumors. Right. And we literally don't know. He's a year out from his contract. All of a sudden there could be all these, like, shuffling of the decks, and teams really have to play this differently than they have in years past because there's truly no free agent market. A lot of cap space to go around. There are guys for offer sheets. Who's to say if anyone does it? Let's be real here. Trading is going to be the move. And that's one of the only ways, right? Like, if you don't draft and develop your star players, the only way to get those Tier one, tier two guys who have to be really aggressive on the trade market to bring in a Queen Hughes or to bring in, you know, Nick Suzuki before he's Nick Suzuki or a Matthew Tkachuk. So it's this huge opportunity for the Red Wings, and they need to play it with a lot of patience, too. Do I think they'll get a haul if they move them tomorrow? Probably. Is it the same haul they could get if they played a little bit more patient and slow it down and just say, we don't care. We're doing this at our own pace? Like, I'm not sure either.
- [49:26]
Max Bultman
Well, it's interesting because I think it all depends on how he has a full no trade clause. And it's interesting because on one hand I'm saying trade request, on the other hand I'm saying no trade clause. But what those two combine for is the player having a lot of control of the process and deciding how many teams are they willing to go to. And so if the trade list is three teams long, that's a bad situation for Detroit. I think once you get it even as big as five, six, seven, maybe even eight teams, if you get it to that much, I don't think it's going to be any problem to make a deal work because you're going to have enough teams that have to bid against each other. But if it turns out that it's a small list, and I genuinely don't know the answer to this, obviously, like people, I don't think people really wanted this out there. And so if it's a small list, and again, it's an if, that's going to really constrict the Red Wings. And that's where I think your point about holding kind of comes into play. I don't think the Red Wings can let this get kind of bulldozed. This can't get, you know, rammed through for them because he's such an important piece for them. You know, obviously, when you have a situation like this, it's inherently your back is against the wall, but you got to do whatever you can to make the most of it with a player who's under contract for as long as Larkin is. And so it's interesting. I mean, there's. There's all these considerations to it. What. What do they think the timeline considerations are? How many teams is he willing to go to does that match up with teams that they think suit the direction that they want to have. So there's a lot of moving parts here still and going to be a lot to unpack over the the coming weeks. For now, that is going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. Be back with you next week.
- [51:05]
GNC Advertiser
We all know winning means showing up stronger, faster, better than before. And when you're chasing that edge, the Drop by GNC cuts through the noise, bringing you the best new innovations in sports nutrition and performance. From muscle building and strength support support to improved recovery and focus, we curate the newest drops from GNC Amp Pro Performance and Mega Men plus Ghost Raw Nutrition, Bucked up and the top new brands Changing the game. No guesswork, just leveling up. Check out the Drop by GNC for what's new, what works and what's next.
- [51:40]
Clio Advertiser
Ever been at the checkout wishing you had more cash to spend? You're watching the total climb, doing mental math, getting ready to put your your favorite yogurt back. It's the worst. Clio lets you access an up to $250 cash advance fast so you can cover your groceries without the panic. No interest, no credit checks, just simple flexible repayment. Get up to $250 with Clio and keep grocery shopping stress free.
- [52:06]
Max Bultman
Depending on eligibility, you can get up to a $250 cash advance. Terms and conditions apply.
- [52:12]
Grainger Advertiser
When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.