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- [00:00]
Galen
I'm Galen, co founder of Brooklyn solarworks.
- [00:02]
Sean Gentile
With my Chase Inc. Business Premier card,
- [00:04]
Galen
I get unlimited 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more, which helps us donate solar panels to community gardens.
- [00:10]
Thomas Drance
Real business owner compensated for their participation. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase bank and a member of dic subject to
- [00:14]
Carl's Jr. Ad Voice
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- [00:46]
ZipRecruiter Ad Voice
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- [01:23]
Thomas Drance
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- [01:57]
Carl's Jr. Ad Voice
This is the Athletic Hockey Show.
- [02:12]
Galen
What up?
- [02:12]
Sean Gentile
What up? It's the Athletic Hockey Show. I am Sean Gentile with another edition of how to Fix. This is our summer series where we check in on some of the more underachieving teams in the NHL. That's maybe how we'll phrase this. These are the teams who are either trying to get back into the playoff conversation or get even get even farther out of it, which I think is what applies to the Vancouver Canucks. We got Drance here, our buddy Thomas Drance to talk about the team. He covers and covers very well, in Vancouver, here's how. Here's how we'll start. The Canucks were dead last in the, in the Pacific Division last year and the NHL, 58 points. That led to some wholesale changes. We know that the Sadie's are in. We know that Ryan Johnson is the new general manager. We know that Manny Malhotra is the new head coach. And they've got this look, Manny's son Caleb, third overall, which is nice, I suppose. Dranser, let's frame it this way. On a scale 1 to 10, how has the first off season of an actual honest to God rebuild gone in Vancouver thus far? Given. Given what they're trying to do, which is something that they haven't honestly and truly tried to do in quite a while. Where are we on the. On the sliding scale?
- [03:28]
Thomas Drance
You know, the folks that have heard me talk about the Vancouver Canucks who read my coverage will not be surprised to hear that. I think it's a little bit mixed. And, and I'm not going to do the classic waffling sports talk thing of like, well, both things can be true.
- [03:43]
Carl's Jr. Ad Voice
No.
- [03:44]
Thomas Drance
Like it's too soon to know exactly how this is going to turn out or how sage this team's moves are, but I think you can see reason for optimism and I think you can see significant reason for concern. I think those are just two honest things that have been undercurrents as the Canucks have gone about remaking themselves in a more rebuilding image this offseason. So on the positive side of the ledger, let's start with that. The Twins and Rian Johnson have come in and talked about community. They've talked about sort of the, the bones of how they want this franchise to carry itself. And they've, I think, been credible in discussing this idea of, you know, having a way that they want to do things that is true to sort of the, the culture of the golden era of Canucks teams, which of course Henrik and Daniel Sedin were faces of like the sort of standard bearers of that era in terms of how they want this team to engage with the community, what they expect of players on that score, you know, how the team treats and handles media obligations, how this team carries itself, protects information, how players find out about things. I mean, you can see the bones of how this team wants to carry itself in a more credible way. These gentlemen are credible in terms of how they communicate that. And they've been talking about patience and sort of the idea of doing a diligent, full blown, gradual accumulation phase rebuild, which obviously this franchise has needed for A long time, and they've made moves that fit with that direction. So on. That's the positive side of the ledger.
- [05:28]
Sean Gentile
I don't mean to interrupt. Before we get into the. Before we get into, like, the next phase of, you know, our discussion here. You've talked a lot about the community aspect of things. You've talked a lot about the cultural end of things that they've. That the new regime, you know, has come in and done and done the right stuff to get the train back on the tracks. In that regard, I. How far off was it before? Because I think, you know, there are people out here who are asking the question fairly, who don't, who aren't as steeped in Canucks, you know, lore as you are. Like, what kind of. What kind of cultural problems were we talking about that the Johnson and the city inside to come in and come in and fix? How bad. How bad did it get on that end of things?
- [06:12]
Thomas Drance
I think pretty bad. You know, we're talking about a team that traded, you know, that had a public rift between two star centermen. One of those star centermen took, you know, three weeks off for undisclosed personal reasons. They never entered the NHLPA program of talking, of course, about J.T. miller. Right. They just were sort of away from the team for 10 games and then were traded, you know, that spring, that the following spring, the club extended, basically, all of Quinn Hughes's friends traded for Evander Kane. Right. And then. And then Quinn Hughes was moping in the first two months of the year precipitating him being dealt. So this team traded a star center and a franchise defenseman within 12 months, you know, one of whom you could just tell was wearing it. Right. I mean, described. And of course, he described the locker room environment as fractured. To the athletic. When we caught up with him ahead of his first game against the Canucks. That's from Quinn Hughes. Fractured.
- [07:16]
Siemens Ad Voice
Right.
- [07:17]
Thomas Drance
That's not me. That's not me editorializing. That's from the principal, from the guy who was living it and was like, I can't do this anymore.
- [07:25]
Siemens Ad Voice
Right?
- [07:25]
Thomas Drance
This isn't working for me. And by the way, you could see the joy that he played with at the Olympics and with Minnesota. And it looked totally different than what we saw in the first half of the year or the first 34 games of the year, whatever he played in his final season with the Vancouver Canucks. I mean, it looked totally different. It looked like a guy who'd had the weight of the world lifted from his shoulders. You know, as much as he's criticized Roundly in Vancouver for a variety of reasons, you know, mostly stemming from, you know, the fact that he requested a trade. Sure. And then beat Canada at the Olympics.
- [08:02]
Sean Gentile
Yeah, that goes, that goes with, that goes with the territory on that. You're not going to be particularly beloved in Vancouver after, after that set of circumstances unfolds.
- [08:11]
Thomas Drance
Absolutely not. But you know what I mean. As much as fans were upset with him about how it went down and you know, the way that he looked when he was playing his final games in a Vancouver Canucks jersey, which was, you know, not frequently, like, not as frequently engaged and passionate as Quinn Hughes usually has been throughout his, you know, hockey playing life. It was hard not to be happy for him. Like, it was hard not to be happy for him. Watching him play in the playoffs against Dallas and seeing a guy who was able to just sort of play his game by the end of the season, by the way, you had like Evander Kane hit his 1000th game. They didn't play him again. He played for his thousand and one game at which he was, you know, given a stick ahead of a pre game ceremony. Evander Kane, probably the least popular Vancouver Canucks player of my lifetime in his hometown after, after which he was never seen from again. He conducted an exit meeting before the end of the season and just left. Like this is the sort of stuff that was happening with the Vancouver Canucks. Star players wanting out, star players taking unexplained leave of leaves of absence. Star players being told to just leave the team after we celebrate your 1000th game milestone. Franchise defenseman asking out. And then some of the, some of the franchise defenseman super friends who were extended in a bid to keep him were then summarily agitating for trades ahead of the deadline. I mean, the, the other than that
- [09:39]
Sean Gentile
everything was going well.
- [09:41]
Thomas Drance
The extent of the dysfunction was through the roof. And yeah, you know, by the end of the season, you started to have little signs of progress from this group of players. Like, you know, I think a group of veteran players with the team, Heronic, Brock Besser, Teddy Blueger, Kevin Lankanen kind of like got together. I think you had a different bit of a vibe shift as guys like Z Bouilliam, some of the younger players who really do carry themselves impressively began to sort of assert their own personalities a little bit more in a cleaned out locker room. And you know, I mean, you did get to a stretch at the end of the season where, hey, they were still going to lose, but at least the effort level wasn't hit and miss night to night, right? Which, which is what we'd seen, right. I mean, this was not a team that like sometimes showed up to the rink and looked good and sometimes showed up to the rink and was playing with half of their ass. Like half assed efforts was like too nice for what we sometimes saw from this group of players. You know, all you can ask for
- [10:41]
Sean Gentile
is a whole, is a whole last effort.
- [10:44]
Thomas Drance
I would like a whole ass effort. And if we were getting a sliver of an ass on some nights, like, you could have, you could have fooled me. So I mean, you at least saw this team begin to play hard night tonight. You at least saw players begin to stand up for one another down the stretch of last season. So you hope that perhaps the team can turn the page on this. Certainly. You know, I think the Twins and Rian Johnson, when they talk about their vision for what they want guys to experience when they walk in there and how the culture of this team will, will work, especially given what we saw Ryan Johnson build in Abbotsford, right. Like, and it was a really interesting dynamic that he oversaw there where there was like a raw honesty to it. Like part of the Abbotsford Canucks sort of cultural ethos, as it were, was yeah, we also think you're too good to be here, so work with us to get you out. Like there was like an honesty of communication with everybody. Like you're, you think you're too good for this, we think you're too good for this. So let's work together and we'll win and you'll win if we all sort of buy into the same thing. And you know, I'll get an NHL GM job and you'll get a chance to play in the show and you know, you'll, you'll get a one way contract and we'll get make. We'll get playoff revenue. And there was like an honesty of that communication. So. And certainly, you know, we all know what the twins are about. So I mean, I actually do think they're credible messengers when they come in and they say we're going to change the culture of this team. I actually believe it.
- [12:08]
Sean Gentile
There's reasonable.
- [12:10]
Thomas Drance
Of course, the problem is, right, is culture can only take you so far. Like, I don't think you can develop yourself player development yourself out of the mess that the Canucks have created. Because it's not just an off ice cultural issue. It's also, you know, this team has nothing of value, right? Like there's nothing here. There's no premium prospects. There's no, I mean, Caleb Malhotra now would be one, but like that's it. Right. And even then, the scoring profile is not what we typically see for a player drafted in the top five of the NHL draft. So there's years of work to do just to accumulate enough baseline of talent that, you know, the work ethic night tonight in the NHL that should be non negotiable. The fact that we're starting there, you know, and that it's also insufficient on its own, I think speaks volumes of sort of the length of time that this team, like the, the amount of time it's going to take for this team to actually get back on track in a more meaningful way.
- [13:07]
Sean Gentile
All right, you said they had nothing. Let's, let's start talking about that. Nothing. We'll start, we'll start with the defense. This is how we're going to structure this. Sure. They bring in Alexia and Luke Shin. Those are, you know, flippable deadline assets, I suppose, and, and quality human beings. I think that's, that's probably, probably the fairest way to characterize those guys. We can, we can move on from that. The, the, where it starts is with Bouilliam and Villender. Right. Like, these are, those are the guys who, out of this group. We'll talk about Philip Ronick in a second. But out of this group, those are the two guys who most clearly profile as being, you know, potential pieces on the next good Vancouver Canucks team. The seasons were somewhat uneven. I, I know it was it. Boom. You know, finished strong in particular, I guess Vilander was maybe, maybe graded out a little better over the course of, of the entire season. You know, we saw flashes to some degree.
- [14:07]
Thomas Drance
Yes.
- [14:08]
Sean Gentile
That's the right way to not, not a ton. And I'm wondering how much of that was due to the Adam Foot experience, because I know this is something you've talked about at length, like what. What did we see from boom. Last year in particular? And how are those guys? Like, what's the next step for, for both of them? I, I guess is the question.
- [14:28]
Thomas Drance
It's really hard to judge the talent that was on this roster last season because this team frequently didn't know what. Didn't look like they knew what they were doing. Sean, to be totally honest with you.
- [14:37]
Sean Gentile
Sure.
- [14:38]
Thomas Drance
You know, they were like you and I at church, like they were just.
- [14:43]
Sean Gentile
Do we kneel?
- [14:46]
Thomas Drance
This is not our. So you know that, that's. They looked lost. And you could see it in their defensive habits. I mean, guys going back for pucks, not shoulder checking sticks, not tied up in front of the net, just a structural bleep show. I mean truly, it was as bad as I've ever seen at the NHL level. So, you know, it's really hard for me. Like one thing I'd say about both the Lander and Z Bouilliam is they really struggled defensively. But you know, so did Marcus Pedersen. And I know Marcus Pedersen's a lockdown, you know, a top pair capable, best suited to second pair duty, but can play a shutdown role and is like reliable and good at it. And a lot of nights he didn't know what he looked like. He knew what he was doing. So how do I judge the, you know, the 20 year old and the 21 year old given, given that Marcus Petterson looked lost most nights, given that Philip Peronic looked lost a lot of nights. So it's, I mean, what I'd say is there's like a lot of change in the couch cushions for Manny Malhotra to find. Like everyone's got a few quarters in their, in their couch cushions, but the Canucks probably have like $35 worth of coins that they can just like pick up. I mean, is it going to be enough to order, you know, to go out for a big steak dinner? Probably not, but you'll be able to order a pizza and you know, that's sort of the, the good thing is, is this team should be able to improve pretty significantly like simply by moving from Adam Foot to Manny Malhotra. Of course that's a double edged sword.
- [16:18]
Sean Gentile
The environment is such now where someone like Boom or someone like Vilander can, is, is going to be in, in a, in a, in an environment and you know, actually have some opportunities to, to take forward steps.
- [16:31]
Thomas Drance
At least we'll, at least we'll be able to say, I assume because I think Manny Malhotra did a really good job in the American League level. I think he's, I think they're going to get a baseline competent structural team next year at the very least, whether
- [16:44]
Sean Gentile
these guys are good or not. Like that's, there's something to be said for that.
- [16:48]
Thomas Drance
There's something to be said for it because I think you'd be remiss. I mean, I can tell you watching the games, like one thing I liked about Z Boyam's game as the season progressed is that he kept taking chances, you know, and it's tough because you're down 3:1 already, it's only the first period and you have to push. But also if you push, you're more Likely to give up the odd man rush. And it's 4:1. And are you still willing to take that chance in the third period, in the second period? And for a player like Z Boum who needs to be on puck and needs to be making things happen creatively, I felt like he kept coming and, and you know, kept trying to do good stuff, kept. Kept taking guys one on one and creating in a really challenging environment. I like to see that. I think that speaks volumes about a guy's mentality. I'm not going to judge his defensive play. It wasn't good. No one else's was either. I think that's where we should cut him slack. But at least in terms of the mentality of the on puck stuff, I thought you saw enough to like. Even though you could also see like this guy is going to need to play at 15 to 20 pounds heavier or he's going to get pushed off the puck. Sometimes when he's, you know, trying some of those dangles, he's not quite, you know, the Quinn Hughes button hook type wizard on his skates. He's not the worm just sort of smeagling about out there the way, the way Quinn Hughes is. And that's fine. Like no one, no one else is Quinn Hughes. But could this guy be, you know, the Vancouver answer to Josh Morrissey down the line, Shea Theodore, could he be that level of player? Like, I think that's in his range of outcomes. As for Philander, you know, I think there were some mechanical issues with his puck handling that maybe give you a little bit more pause. You know, you certainly hope that he's got one of those like Broberg or K. Andre Miller type glow ups in him, right? Where like toolsy defenseman figures it out in his mid-20s. I think that's a reasonable sort of development track to look at for him. But. But what I'd say is, you know, the on ice results in terms of what the Canucks generated and what they surrendered with him on the ice were like very concerning. But the rate at which they got outscored was far less. Right. Was far less concerning. And you know me, Sean, I always worry like when a guy's results are fine and the process is really ugly, that to me tends to be a red flag. That said, you know, the process could improve enough whether or not he improves, right? Then it becomes less of a concern on its own. So he's a really tough eval, I think coming out of this season. Canucks fans are obviously very excited. They'll take whatever hope they can get. But I think there's, you know, a pretty significant range of outcomes still on exactly how well both Boom and Valander are tracking.
- [19:28]
Sean Gentile
Let's move to Heronic because we've talked, we've edged around him a bit here. Why does he still want to be a part of this? And how realistic is true. That's, that's not, I'm not being, that's not a smart ass question. And how realistic is it to expect that maybe he's, he's on the move at some point? Cause he makes seven and a quarter against the cap. Full, full no movement clause. That's part of the answer to the first question. But like he seems, you know, in a lot of ways like perhaps their most tradable asset in, in a lot, in a lot of ways. And he doesn't seem to be interested in getting moved. So what, what is the status of things with him?
- [20:07]
Thomas Drance
So I have a theory about rebuilding Sean. And you know, I know you're like me and have been doing your Christopher Nolan rewatch ahead of the Odysse and you know, the galaxy, they go to an interstellar that's sort of shaped around the black hole. I think that rebuilding in the NHL, there's like a level that you hit as a team in the NHL that I call the vortex of ineptitude. And the vortex of ineptitude occurred to the Vancouver Canucks when they traded Quinn Hughes. And effectively it's like while you had Quinn Hughes, even if you weren't good, you were good enough every year, like just by virtue of having him, that you could at least dream on things falling your way and convince yourself that
- [20:53]
Sean Gentile
you can convince yourself if you have
- [20:54]
Thomas Drance
to, you could at least, you could at least sell it. And some years you might even be right. And when you fall beneath that baseline functional level, right, where like there's no escape from losing, no light will escape the black hole. No losing will, no winning will escape from the Vancouver Canucks. Like they will be losing for years here. They've, they've slipped into what I call the vortex of an aptitude. And the point of, is when you're, when you're falling into or swirling about this vortex, things pick up their own weight, right? Like things become intractable. So it's one thing for Philip Roenick this summer to tell the Vancouver Canucks he's got a no move clause this year, he's got a no move clause next year. The year after that it's a 15 team modified no trade. So this summer, this summer it makes sense for him to be like, hey, I, I'm comfortable in Vancouver, My family settled in Vancouver. I want to be part of turning this around. He's only been losing for six months. He's only been existing in a world without Quinn Hughes on his left side, and in which for six months, another year of losing. And next summer the conversation is, Phil, do you want to do this now? Should we go to the team and try to do this now while we have total say over where you go? Or do we want to wait for July 1st next year with half the league? We can only, we can only restrict half the league. And the other 15 teams can bid.
- [22:18]
Kayla
Right.
- [22:18]
Sean Gentile
And it turns into, Phil Hroneck, you're a national predator or something like whatever.
- [22:24]
Thomas Drance
Philip Horonick getting married the summer he just got married. He's 28 still. Right. He turns 29 in September. It's one thing at the age of 28 to be like, I see the vision, I believe in what we're doing here. I love the city, my wife loves the city. We want to stay. Right. It's another thing to be having that conversation when you're, I'm turning 30 in two months and this is my last chance to choose my destination. And then it's another thing entirely to be having that conversation when you're 30, 31, 32, and sort of the footsteps of retirement begin to be heard in your hallway and also you don't have control over the situation anymore. So for me, with Philip Veronik, I think it's one of those situations, like, does part of me think that it's a red flag when a player really wants to stay for a team that has no short term hope, like kind of. But also I look at this as sort of part of a process. And it's one thing for Philip Peronic to feel that way today. I think it's a very different thing to feel that way 12 months from
- [23:25]
Sean Gentile
now we'll see what he's saying after another 58 points season. Right.
- [23:28]
Thomas Drance
And, and, and I think, well, I mean, they'll be hard pressed to do 58 again, man. I, I, I, I, I, I mean this team doesn't have the talent to take the Anaheim Ducks type step. Yeah, but I've got this, I've got this coaching theory that like John Cooper, you know, Bruce Cassidy, whomever, you want, the best of the best. I think at the end of the day, those guys, a little bit of impact at the, at the top end, like, they probably give you a 10 point edge. Maybe they, maybe they make you 15 better, which is huge. Massive justifies massive spending given that they're non cap personnel. Right. But I think at the bottom end, if you have Greg Cronin or Adam Foot, right. I think the impact of like truly inept coaching can be huge. Like, I think it can absolutely submarine a team. And I think sometimes when we see
- [24:22]
Sean Gentile
Doug Wade's experiencing Anaheim in part is experiencing that now like, like what they're dealing with as it relates to Leo Carlson or Mason McTavish or whatever. This is the fruit still to some extent of the Greg Cronin tree.
- [24:37]
Thomas Drance
I agree and I'd add, I'd add this. Like, I think the Doug Waite to Barry Trots experience is another good example from the last decade. Like, you know, I think the Canucks are going to need to be mindful of making sure that they finish at the bottom of the standings because what they did, just lapping the field at the bottom, you know, like that, that's not going to be easy to do even though they're under skilled. Like it's, it's not going to be easy to have the top draft lottery odds sewn up by January the way they did this past season. Especially if Malhotra is, you know, Marco Sturm, Dan Muse level good, which I think there's reasonable, like it's, which is a reasonable bet. So you know, being bad is something they're going to have to manage carefully here. And you know, that's one of the, one of the areas where keeping Philip Peronic actually has something of a risk profile for the Canucks. The risk profile there too, Sean, I'd add, is no coach in the world is going to look at their options on this Canucks blue line and play Philip Peronic any less than 28 minutes a night.
- [25:39]
Sean Gentile
Yeah, right.
- [25:40]
Thomas Drance
But you cannot do that. You cannot afford to A, let him impact games to that level because he's actually good. But B, to take on that level
- [25:48]
Sean Gentile
of injury, potentially expose him to that level of injury risk.
- [25:51]
Thomas Drance
Right. Because that's the other thing that the Canucks have to be mindful of. Like, in what form do you store value? Right. When you're this bad, you don't want
- [25:59]
Sean Gentile
to run the wheels off Philip Hironic.
- [26:02]
Thomas Drance
And, and, and we saw it with the Canucks trading Marcus Pedersen to the New York Rangers for a first round pick in like 2030. Could be a, could be a pick in 2031 like John, they might pick a kid draft born in 2012 with the asset that they got back for Marcus Pedersen.
- [26:17]
Sean Gentile
Sickening. I know we are, we are we are decrepit.
- [26:22]
Thomas Drance
We are so washed. But, but the, but you know that like the good part about that trade, the thing that makes sense about that trade more than anything is that a draft pick in 2030 or 2031, all it can do is gain value as that draft gets closer. Whereas a 31 year old defenseman at the end of the day, next year they're a 32 year old defenseman, the year after that they're a 33 year old defenseman. I mean they can hold value by continuing to play well, but the risk profile on them increases. So you know, I do think the Canucks like they've shown us with their moves that they're thinking about this sort of thing. They should be thinking about this sort of thing just from a portfolio management perspective. And, and Heronics, you know, just like storing the value of Philip Hronik in a player who can't help but be overused in on this roster. Like that's suboptimal in the extreme and something that, you know, I'm sure the team's aware of and they better have a plan to address with Manny Malhotra in terms of limiting his ice time and his burn.
- [27:29]
Siemens Ad Voice
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- [27:44]
Galen
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- [28:16]
Sean Gentile
we asked some people about sharing their New York Times accounts.
- [28:19]
Kayla
My name is Kayla. My husband and I use his email address to access the New York Times. Each day we compete for who gets to do connections. Sometimes I log into the app and I discover that he's already finished connections that day.
- [28:35]
Siemens Ad Voice
And I'm like, Jonah, it was my day.
- [28:37]
Kayla
And he's like, I know, I just couldn't resist. You would do us a huge favor if we got to log in as a family with separate emails. I really think our well being as a couple depends on it. Thanks for looking into this, Kayla.
- [28:53]
Sean Gentile
We heard you. It's why we created the New York Times Family subscription. One subscription, up to four separate logins for anyone in your life. Find out more@nytimes.com family. We're going to move on to the forwards they drafted Caleb Malhotra. He certainly seems like he's ticketed for the, for Boston University, I believe next year. Yes.
- [29:17]
Thomas Drance
BU Terriers.
- [29:19]
Sean Gentile
BU baby. Brendan Gallagher, Paul Cotter, you know, tradable assets again for future fourth round picks or whatever. Evander Kane and Niels Hoglander go out. Seem like good riddance to Kane. Shocker there. Hoglander is traded for a third rounder, I believe, which is. Okay, fine. Yeah. This is largely a returning group and we're talking about, talking about Elias Pedersen and Besser and Debrusk and Marco Rossi. We're going, we need to start at the top. We need to talk about Pedersen from the Canucks perspective at this point. And as you understand it, what does a palatable Elias Patterson trade look like? Like what is, what is, what is the floor on, on that move if they were to make it?
- [30:08]
Thomas Drance
I mean, I think the Darnell Nurse trades, the template, you know, the Darnell Nurse trade is the if you just want out of the contract, you take back, you know, I mean in the case, in Edmonton's case, they took back Shakir MacMadoulan who's like out of his entry level deal and isn't pacing to be much more than a depth level defenseman. But maybe, maybe there's still some untapped upside. But the value really is in creating the salary cap space. And I think you're probably looking at something pretty similar with Elias Pedersen. There's a lot of term left on that deal. There's a lot of money left on that deal. There's a lot of lump sum money left on that deal. And most importantly, as we've seen, you know, across the league over the past three to four weeks. Sean. Right. Like trade value more than anything else is a combination, right. Of quality and demand. And demand. Right. And this is where Elias Patterson has full control over, over the situation. He's got a full NMC that NMC at no point modifies. It is a locked in nmc. You cannot create a bidding war for Elias Betterson.
- [31:11]
Aura Ad Voice
Right.
- [31:11]
Thomas Drance
There is probably a very small list of teams that he'd be willing to consider going to and as a result you're not going to have multiple people driving up the price. So I made the nurse comparison in a mailbag recently. And Canucks fans were furious. But it's like, what, what do you think? Like, I mean, this guy's got significant off ice and character concerns stemming from his rift with J.T. miller, but also the fact that he's been repeatedly called out for his lack of preparation by multiple different Canucks managers over the years. You know, he is a skilled player. He has been 100 point center, but he's also been like pretty mid for 30 months.
- [31:50]
Sean Gentile
His shot velocity is downstairs 2024. Right. Like that was, that was it. That was the line in the sand for him.
- [31:56]
Thomas Drance
It's from a productive 100% and just go watch him play like he's not making things happen out there. He's not slow. He, he works hard like he, he blocks shots. He's, he's had to like retrofit his game for his diminished level of juice. To me, that's deeply concerning. So, yeah, I mean, I, I, I think if the Canucks could figure out a solution to the Elias Pedersen problem and move him on this summer, that would be their preference. I think the Canucks would have liked to do more tearing down and dismantling of this roster than they've been able to do to this point. I think it's pretty clear that they've been in sort of how they've gone about that. I think that makes sense for a team with absolutely zero win now, pressure on them. But yeah, I mean, I don't think Pedersen would have a significant amount of trade value. I think the club would like to move him if they could. And I think the fact that they haven't, you know, speaks to how limited their options are.
- [32:54]
Sean Gentile
Yeah, we're talking about him as a cap dump for a team that doesn't need to dump cap and. Right. That's, that's tough.
- [33:01]
Thomas Drance
Yeah. I bring up the Zach Parise, Ryan Suter buyouts as kind of the most straightforward example that I can think of in sort of recent NHL history where you sort of, you know, cut off your nose to spite your face, but it's for the betterment of the organization. It's like, can you really construct a new culture with, you know, Patterson around is sort of the question that I think the organization has to wrestle with. Even if it's not one that sort of fans not thinking through the day to day experience that this organization's trying to construct, you know, they can just look at it as trade value and they can sort of wishcast their dreams of Pedersen returning a form onto him. And look, maybe it happens, I mean, at the end of the Day. He's still a talented, young enough player, but, you know, I don't know. I'd be really surprised if the elite forum comes back after all this time.
- [33:53]
Sean Gentile
If you're a team that was looking to maximize him, some non Canucks team, let's say, what kind of players do you skate him with? Like, how does Elias Pedersen look like something resembling, you know, a true top six forward in 2026? Like, what kind of guys does he need to have on his flanks to look a little bit more passable than he has, you know, over the last couple years?
- [34:16]
Thomas Drance
Well, one of the great tragedies of the Quinn Hughes, Elias Pedersen era for the Vancouver Canucks is that the absolute perfect Elias Patterson linemate was J.T. miller. Right. Like that's one of the, that's one of the ironies of it, right? Kuzmenko has some similarities in his offensive game to J.T. miller, obviously temperamentally and stylistically they couldn't be more different. But the down low playmaking in particular, right, though the work on the wall
- [34:42]
Sean Gentile
down low, the circles and along the
- [34:45]
Thomas Drance
walls, I can see exactly below the hash marks, creative passing plays from down low. As to a player working to get open in space and who, who can sort of one shot it. Like that's, that's sort of what you kind of need to put Elias Pedersen. You need to put on Elias Pedersen's wing. In my opinion, the Canucks actually have a pretty interesting, you know, he's not young anymore, but a pretty interesting mid aged bet to play with him in Linus Carlson, who I think was massively underutilized despite, you know, having actual good results for the Canucks last season. So they sort of have that. The other thing that I'd want to put Pedersen with these days is someone who can drive a little bit through the neutral zone, who can, who can carry the puck through the neutral zone, because that part of Elias Pedersen's game feels like it might just be a thing of the past. We just don't see those same sorties, those same sort of dynamic entries with speed as a puck carrier through the neutral zone. So a winger with some pace. The Canucks, by the way, absolutely do not have that person. And, and someone who can sort of make plays for him down low, like that would be the ideal setup, I think. But even then, like, you know, I, I think you go into next season if you're the Canucks and I'll be pretty surprised if we don't get to mid December and just like outright and on merit, Marco Rossi is playing more five on five Minutes like he should. He's probably the better player at this point.
- [36:08]
Sean Gentile
Yeah, I wanted to talk about Rossi specifically. Like, what do you view his short and long term role with his franchise as. Because he was, you know, as he was out after the Olympic break, I think particularly productive. Like, yeah, he was. He's in it. He's in an interesting spot because of his age, his contract status. Like I, I'm, I'm interested in, in seeing what happens for him as it relates.
- [36:30]
Thomas Drance
And his height. And his height.
- [36:32]
Carl's Jr. Ad Voice
Right.
- [36:32]
Thomas Drance
Like Mark Marker, Rossi is unfortunately one of those guys whose real hockey value is greater than his exchange value simply because of his listed height. And it's unfair to those guys. But that's just how the NHL works, you know, and the problem is, is the only way to ever overcome the concerns that a player gets attached to their listed height, the only way to ever overcome it is the Stankovan Zach Benson route. Right? You have to win in the playoffs. You have to, you have to dominate playoff games. Well, Marco Rossi is probably not getting a chance to do that anytime soon, Sean. So, you know, he's, he's actually a pretty inconvenient asset for the Canucks to be holding in that. I think he's actually good. He played to a 66 point pace once he got healthy down the stretch last season after sort of returning from injury in late February. And so he's actually good. He's actually productive. He's on a bridge contracts Year 2 of a bridge contract, so he's signed for this year. Next season he's an RFA after that. But you know, in that, in and of itself, that means that, you know, they're kind of on a clock with him. He's probably going to get the sort of opportunity to build a heck of an arbitration case in a, you know, consequence free environment where he's going to
- [37:50]
Sean Gentile
play, no doubt top six minutes, he's not top power play. Like he's. His, his counting numbers are going to be good because someone's got to score
- [37:58]
Thomas Drance
points and, and he's probably never going to have the sort of trade value that actually matches his quality as a hockey player. And so that's tough. I guess what I would say is, I guess the other part of this is he's old enough that by the time you build the next core of the next great Canucks team around, like a totally newly assembled core over the next two to three more drafts, by the time those guys are ready to win, he's probably pushing 30. Right. So it's not a Perfect rebuilding asset. What I would just say is in an era of cap growth, the key with Rossi from a Vancouver perspective is to decide proactively. I don't think it's a problem to sign him long term. You know, with a contract that starts when he's 26, like at the end of the day, even if the last two years of that aren't perfect, the cap might be so high and you know, the utility of having him locked up is probably greater than, you know, trading him for a non premium return, which is what you're most likely looking at. But, but I'd say more than anything the key is to make the decision next summer, right. Or, or at the deadline this year. You just have to make it quickly. If you're going to try and monetize him, you got to do that fast while teams are talking themselves into a year and a half of cost controlled Marco Rossi as opposed to staring down the barrel of a really strong arbitration case. And if you're going to extend him, you've got to extend him proactively before the market resets again, which is just going to keep doing on an every six month basis. As the, as the NFL has taught us during the cap growth era. A lesson that H fans probably haven't quite wrapped their head around just yet.
- [39:35]
Sean Gentile
It's going to be interesting to see people figure that out because they're, they're going to have to.
- [39:40]
Thomas Drance
Well, think about how much the conversations changed in the last six months. Six months ago, hockey fans were still like, Nick Schmaltz is seven year deal. Like that's pretty team friendly. It's like, no it's not.
- [39:50]
Siemens Ad Voice
Right?
- [39:50]
Thomas Drance
Like that's higher cap hits less term. Right? Higher cap hits less trade restrictions. Like what you need now is the ability to move things. You know, if you don't have that, you're, you're kind of cooked. You can't pounce on all the opportunities that this era of player empowerment is creating.
- [40:08]
Sean Gentile
Yeah, it's a bad idea to have the top two of the top 200 players in the game. You give 160 of them no movement clause and one regard in one regard or not. Like it's, it's not, it's not going to work that way anymore. And people are, people are going to need to adjust.
- [40:22]
Thomas Drance
Just pay them more. Like seriously, the first, the first team
- [40:25]
Sean Gentile
that starts using no movement clauses to drive down wages, which is what GM did for our guys gazillion years, and just, just pay them what they're worth.
- [40:33]
Thomas Drance
The first team that's just really disciplined about being like, we pay fair market value but you never get more than a 10 team modified no trade clause. Like the efficiencies that they're going to pick up across this sort of new era, I mean it's going to be massive.
- [40:48]
Sean Gentile
They've been connected to Shane Wright. Does that make any sense?
- [40:52]
Thomas Drance
Not really. And I'm a big Shane Wright fan. I think people are looking at the counting stats from last season and kind of sleeping on it. You know, he's really fast, like he's an elite skater. He's a right handed center, he plays the game hard and he's got some skill to punish mistakes off the rush like this. To me this is very much, this is as close as you're going to get to the bet that the Florida Panthers made on Sam Bennett. Like this is basically as clean a reroll as you're going to find for that player profile. Right down to the like, you know, penchant for taking bad penalties in the offensive zone. Yeah, the, the draft pedigree, like all of it. Right. It's all. I don't know how Shane Wright was doing pull ups at 17, but other than that it's like pretty much a straight line.
- [41:38]
Sean Gentile
We gotta go back to the tape from the, from the combine scouting event.
- [41:45]
Thomas Drance
Anyway, so I'm a big Shane Wright fan. Like if I'm dropping a Sam Bennett comp, that's, you know, very much not derogatory, that's complimentary in the extreme. But the Vancouver Canucks need a stud face of the franchise level center. Right. Like the Canucks need. And as much as I like Shane Wright and as much as I like Sam Bennett, like that's not who those guys are. I think he can be a really, really good second line center on a great team. I think he'd be like a home run cut for a team like Buffalo. You know, like Buffalo, especially if they're, you know, swinging a deal for, I don't know, a certain American goaltender who likes the idea of being the successor to Dominic Hashik and, and Ryan Miller. I mean if they wanted to clear cap space, you know, Shane Wright for Jack Quinn and Ryan McLeod or something like, I don't know, I just, just pulling it out there like that to me makes sense. He's a good pick. Well, he's a good fit for a team like Buffalo because he could play behind some guys and you know, maybe give you some additional center depth so that you can play Alex Tuck on the wing, not Alex Tucker, Tage Thompson on the Wing in the playoffs when some of the defensive flaws in his game begin to imagine.
- [42:53]
Sean Gentile
I can imagine it being a 2C on a good team, Shane. Right.
- [42:55]
Thomas Drance
That's what I'm saying. And I just think the Canucks, like, they're not the good team that needs the 2C and they need the 1C. You know, they've got Coots, they've got Malhotra, they've got. They've got another guy too. Coots, Malhotra and, oh, Rossi. So, like, you've already got. You've got a bunch of U25 bids in the pool to have the second line center on a really good team. Like, what this team needs is the. Is the iron in the fire that can maybe produce the ceiling case. So, I mean, even if, Even if you're talking about trading a first and a second, like, that's just too expensive at this point in the Canucks rebuilding effort, you know, it just doesn't make sense.
- [43:34]
Sean Gentile
Does Brock Besser have more trade value than Elias Betterson right now?
- [43:38]
Thomas Drance
No. No, I don't think so.
- [43:42]
Sean Gentile
The.
- [43:42]
Thomas Drance
The problem for debrush and contracts, rough. He's got a lot of control. And I'd add this, like, look around, right? Like, why are you giving up assets and taking on the Brock Besser deal when you can give Michael Bunting's agent a call or Anthony Manta's agent a call, or Patrick Kane's agent a call or Vladimir Tarasenko's agent? Like, the, The Winger market hasn't moved, right? These guys are in stasis. So why is anyone going to give up assets for Debrus or Best?
- [44:10]
Sean Gentile
And we've seen players who, We've seen players who are, who are better asset packages than Brock Besser not move. And I'm talking, you know, Pittsburgh brain coming here, but I'm thinking of Brian Russ, I'm thinking Ricardo Kell, who were signed to better contracts and were more productive last year. And those guys, those guys were there for the taking. And there they sit on the roster for Pittsburgh.
- [44:31]
Thomas Drance
It's. I think these guys are going to be waiting and for good reason. I mean, literally, like you, you're not gonna pay a premium to acquire a guy who's a less efficient bet than one you can place without acquisition costs, right? I mean, period. So, you know, I think that market's basically frozen for now.
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- [46:37]
Sean Gentile
we're going to move to goaltending. I do want to talk about Thatcher Demko. He played in 20 games last season, put up a sub.900 save percentage before hip surgery in January ended things for him again. He's in the first year of a contract that pays him 8.5 against the cap for the next three seasons. Where does he fit in the.
- [46:59]
Thomas Drance
Good Lord, Sean.
- [47:00]
Sean Gentile
I, I truly like as we go over this.
- [47:02]
Thomas Drance
It's unbelievable, right?
- [47:04]
Sean Gentile
I, I like. He's like. He makes, he makes too much money obviously for, for a guy who almost certainly isn't going to be able to, you know, play more than in a timeshare situation. But like there's a world where he's good enough for long enough to completely submarine the tank. Like they could finish conceivably 29th because Thatcher Demko goes on some 12 game run that, you know, screws things up for them. Is, is that, is that fair to say?
- [47:36]
Thomas Drance
I mean, look, I hope that we get to see that. You know, I hope we get to see that because I've covered a lot of Thatcher Demko returning from injury. I've written A lot of those stories. And I haven't really got to write the. Thatcher Demko is too good that it's inconvenient for the Canucks rebuild. Like, I haven't gotten to write that piece in a long time. So. And let's be real, I was writing that piece when the Canucks were actually, like, good.
- [47:59]
Kayla
Yes, you were.
- [48:00]
Thomas Drance
Kinds of other people. Multiple times. Multiple times. So anyway, with. With that. With. With Demko, like, I hope we get to see that. I think. Here's the. Here's the. I'm just gonna try and take a step back and sort of talk it through factually. Thatcher Demko is now 30 years old. The hip surgery that he underwent last season was the second hip surgery, something that, as far as I know, no NHL goaltender's done. Right? Like the double hip impingement surgery. That's. That's not something we've seen before. So that's unprecedented. That's on top of the fact that he dealt with that unprecedented knee tear two years ago before Thatcher Demko sustained the unprecedented knee tear and went through the unprecedented second hip surgery. He'd never, at any point in his career, put together a season in which he was a workhorse starter with an above average save percentage who was healthy at the end of the year. Like those three. Those three things that I think are required to have had a workhorse.
- [49:07]
Sean Gentile
He's never checked them all at the same time.
- [49:09]
Thomas Drance
He never checked them all in a single season once at any point in his career. And now people are worried that he might ruin the tank at the age of 30, coming back from multiple unprecedented medical ailments.
- [49:21]
Sean Gentile
Like, you know, probably unfounded concerns here, I would imagine.
- [49:26]
Thomas Drance
I. I can't get there, you know, like, and I'm just thinking about this, like, how would I assess this if I was considering him as like, a running back at the 2, 3 turn in a. In a fantasy football draft? I'd be like, you know, I'm not too worried about him burning me. So that. That's just, you know, that's just the. The shape of the thing. Right. I really hope that he beats the odds, but that's what he has to do. He has to beat extremely long odds to be a great player again. And so then you get into sort of the longer conversation, because Lankan is also the larger conversation, not longer. Sorry, Sean, I didn't mean to threaten you there. The. The. The larger conversation with Lankan because Lankanin's also signed 4.5 forever. He's got a full no move clause this season, and you know, I think the Canucks need to be looking at this and thinking through, do we carry three goaltenders? Like you probably should carry three goaltenders. I think Demko, they should have a goal on starts for him that's something like 25 to 30. Like, let's get through a 12 month period where Thatcher Demko is. Completely.
- [50:29]
Sean Gentile
Doesn't get hurt.
- [50:31]
Thomas Drance
Yeah, doesn't get hurt. Completely healthy. And, and the way that I'd go about doing that is I'd be limiting his reps at practice on the games that he's not playing. I wouldn't even have him backing up. Right. Like, I definitely don't want him stopping shots being taken by scratches in the morning because he's the backup. I don't want him doing the extra work in the warm up skate. You know, like, he should be on a strict pitch count. Let's, let's get 25 really fun Thatcher Demko games, all of which he leaves at the. After the final buzzer. Totally healthy. Like, let's do that. And then, and then sort of we'll see where we land next season. We'll see where we land the season after that. Like, can we put 18, 24 months between Demko and, you know, his last start in which he left hurt? Because, because right now, like, he's, he's been injured on average every seven starts for two and a half years. Sean. Like, that's been really tough. It's been really tough. So I think.
- [51:27]
Sean Gentile
I haven't, I haven't heard you use that one yet. That's. That is wild.
- [51:32]
Thomas Drance
Well, yeah, and. Well, dude, go check the game log, like, because a lot of them too are like a game against Toronto where he leaves after the first and we don't see him. Like, you know, it's just been a litany of things and I really hope that he's figured out like, the source of it and I really hope that he can continue to do the thing he does at an elite level professionally because it just sucks. It sucks for anybody to be on the sidelines like this. So I'm really hopeful that he can overcome the odds, but I think we need to be very clear eyed about how long those odds are. And, and the Canucks need to design a plan for it, right? Like, they need to be carrying three goaltenders and they need to be conscious of this. And I think that'll be a really
- [52:17]
Sean Gentile
interesting tell for this how the organization operates too. Just like in terms of mindset and communication and synergy between, between all the various stakeholders. Right?
- [52:29]
Thomas Drance
And, and Value creation, right, because you're trying to, you're trying to manage the Demko value. You've trying to manage the Lankan in value. But I'd add this. They have top waiver priority. And you look around the NHL like who signed Corpusallo as the Rangers, right? So they have that a grandkid or whatever who's like pretty good or like, yeah, Ottawa. Ottawa did something stupid in gold too. Who did they sign? Erson. Right. They brought in Erson, but they've got that Marilyn and kid who's pretty good, right, like, so there's some goalies who are actually interesting, who are probably available at some point, you know, and, and the Canucks have, have one of their own too, who's probably not as highly thought of as those gentlemen or, or as high upside as those gentlemen. So it's like, you know, get, get to camp and wave tolopilo day one when no one's going to put in a claim so that you know what you've got and then you can probably pick out a pretty interesting third goaltender and it's like there's no easier way. You, you know, you're talking about all the assets that the Canucks might be able to trade for a fourth. Like you want to trade a real asset in season, you know, while also managing Demko's minutes. Like, this is it. This is as easy as it gets. This is the, this is the tap in of all tap ins when you really think your way through it. So, you know, I honestly feel like how the Canucks manage their situation and net might be one of the most telling early indicators we get of like, how sharp are the twins and Ryan Johnson. How much can they just bring basic common sense into the sort of equation of rebuilding this hockey club?
- [53:59]
Sean Gentile
See, this is why you're the best. You have me paying attention to the Canucks goaltending situation. You've, you've added, you've added, you've added stakes to this for me. I simply cannot believe it.
- [54:09]
Thomas Drance
Let's go.
- [54:10]
Sean Gentile
Let's go, babe. So typically in these shows, this is where we talk about teams, playoff chances. I think it's fair to call those non existence. For the Vancouver Canucks, that's a good thing. To answer the big question. I mean, we've, we've circled around it a couple different times, like, is this team going to be bad enough? Like is is and whether it is or is, and what does a successful season look like? Like if, if we're, if it's late April and we're like, okay, mission accomplished for Vancouver, like, what kind of stuff does that entail?
- [54:44]
Thomas Drance
Yeah, so I think a really successful Vancouver Canucks season would look like the following. The Canucks are in April, no higher than 31st in the NHL standings. However, in getting there, they looked night to night like a team that worked hard, that was consistent that they were losing games because they don't have the horses. They weren't losing games because they quit night to night. I think that would be, that would represent huge progress over last season. I'd add too, that at least they're playing organized enough structural hockey that we can talk about the young defenders on the team and actually have a sense of what they are versus how confused they are night to night. Right. So a team that competes and carries itself professionally and plays organized professional NHL level hockey, even if they're getting blown out with, with frequency, I think that would represent significant progress. I'd add to, like, they've got a lot of prospects that they just picked, you know, a really strong season from Manny, from Caleb Maltra, excuse me, at bu, right. You know, starring for Canada and Edmonton at the World Juniors, likewise with Adam Nootney for Czechia and you know, Brooks Rogowski, their second round pick, or Aram Olsen, their Norwegian winger they picked in the second round is also going to be you. You know, the Braden Coutts is establishing himself down the stretch as an everyday NHL level player. Jonathan Le Caramacki, you know, looks like he's put on weight and has a shot to maybe be something for this team. Blander and Bouilliam, you know, aren't picking up scar tissue in a really bad environment, but instead are making steady progress. Right, let's. For me, it's going to be much more about that. And then, and then I'd add this, like, in terms of how this team connects with this community and carries itself culturally. Right? Like, does this team deliver on, you know, not, not just the promise, but the outline, the plan that Rian Johnson and company have, have spelled out. Like, can we see the, you know, we're not going to see the fruits of that. Like, it's not like the seeds that are being planted are going to blossom necessarily by the end of this season.
- [56:56]
Sean Gentile
Right.
- [56:56]
Thomas Drance
But, but like, can we see some sprouts? Like, can we, can we see that this makes sense, that it's, that it's sensible and, and can the club at least avoid doing the really obvious, like, can they avoid doing, making the really obvious mistakes that they've just made time and time again? You know, whether that's, you Know that your Demko is playing his seventh game in a row and it's like, come on, stop it. Right? Or Philip Hronick is leading the NHL in average ice time per game, right? Like, can they avoid doing the stuff that we just know is self defeating in advance if they can, if they can hit those boxes. And I've set a pretty low bar, Sean. Like, that's a pretty low bar. Like, try as NHL players behave as
- [57:41]
Sean Gentile
NHL players, don't do anything destructively stupid as a, as a front office or
- [57:47]
Thomas Drance
coaching staff, play NHL level systems and have your, the third overall pick, have a good season in Div.1. Like you hit those four boxes while avoiding doing anything really stupid. And I'll be like, wow, what a great season. And I guess I'd add this. You know, they better find a way to get an additional first round pick in 2027. They better find a way to sell off, you know, whether it's Cotter, Drew o'. Connor, like, you know, they better find some smart ways to add value into the organization. So, and that's maybe a little bit more challenging because let's be real, the Canucks don't have a ton of value, a ton that's valuable among their holdings. But yeah, check those six boxes for me. And, and I think we'll, we'll begin to be on sort of the right path in terms of where the Canucks are going.
- [58:31]
Sean Gentile
Jeremias, I've been waiting for you to cover a rebuilding team for a very, very long time. So I'm, I'm excited about the work you've done. I'm excited about the work.
- [58:39]
Thomas Drance
Thanks for having me, buddy. It's gonna be a blast.
- [58:41]
Sean Gentile
We always pay attention to it, man, but we're gonna pay attention to it even, even more closely over the next little bit. So thanks, brother.
- [58:47]
Thomas Drance
Anytime, man. Cheers. Enjoy the summer. And, and thanks for having me.
- [58:52]
Sean Gentile
Bet. And thanks also to you fine folks for watching and listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. Thank you to producer Jeff as always. Next up is Laz, Pete, Bob, Vince McCabiano. They're trying to fix the Rangers. That drops on Monday. We'll see you next time.
- [59:10]
Kayla
Foreign.
- [59:15]
Siemens Ad Voice
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ZipRecruiter Ad Voice
Yeah.
- [59:31]
Carl's Jr. Ad Voice
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