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- [00:00]
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- [00:28]
Scott Wheeler
Call as soon as we can.
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Scott Wheeler
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- [01:41]
Corey Pronman
Smart Bed Can I make my site softer?
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- [02:23]
Max Bultman
Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Hey everybody. Max Boltman here alongside the Athletic Scott Wheeler and Corey Promman and Flo Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. We're going to start today talking some international hockey. We'll get into some draft as we go on. Scott was at the college series of the weekend last week that we definitely want to get to. But Corey, let's start with the World U17 challenge. And really the first movement, I guess I would say in that 2027 draft class is a splashy showing from Alexis Joseph.
- [03:07]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think you know he was the clear best player there at that tournament leading the Canada Red team to, to a gold medal. And just as a pro prospect he's so impressive. You know, if he's around six four something, he's closer to six five. I think he got measured at the turbine closer to 6 4. He skates really well for a guy his size. He's highly skilled, he makes plays, he's competitive, he can finish plays. Just like a really, really well rounded centerman guy who you know, we'll see how he develops in the coming years. But early on he looks like that kind of dream scenario you have where you pick a number one, a lot of resemblances say to like what Leo Carlson looked like coming up into the draft as a guy you're hoping could become a potential number one center in the NHL. And he's a really exciting pro prospect and I expect he's going to enter next season as the favorite to be the first pick unless something changes significantly over the next six months.
- [04:05]
Max Bultman
Well that dovetails right into the the story you put out this week. The way to early look at the 2027 class and I, I think there'll be plenty of people who read that list and go, wait a minute, I thought Landon Dupont was the slam dunk here. What has shifted to, I mean besides obviously a great tournament from Joseph.
- [04:21]
Corey Pronman
Well one, I would be extremely apprehensive to ever call someone a slam dunk. Number one pick more than two years ahead of their NHL draft. A lot changes in the in in the course of that time and I Dupont's been very good when I've watched him this year, but I wouldn't say he's been lights out either. I mean I thought he was good, not great. The Hink Agreski, he's been pretty good, not great. In WHL we start talking about pro projection. He's a 51160 defenseman. Great, great skater, great hockey sense, very competitive kid. A lot of positives there but I don't think the tool kit is so off the charts good. Like I still think there's a scenario where he, he could become like a Kale Maar type impact type of defenseman if a lot of things go well for him. But there's a chance he's not that type of player as well. So I think you look at the toolkits, I think Joseph's and Nasar Privalovs for me are much more enticing in terms of projecting what they will be as pros. It's not just projections. They've been highly impactful junior players as well. Yeah.
- [05:24]
Max Bultman
And you mentioned Privilev there, Corey. He's also ahead of Dupont on your list. You have Dupont 3, Joseph 1 and Privilev 2. Tell people about privilege. I don't know if that's a name that everyone's going to have deep familiarity with at this point.
- [05:35]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, right from the start of the junior season in Russia, he was really impactful. I think I watched. I think I watched one of their very first games. He was playing against Skaz Junior. Junior team scores a hattick in that game. And you're just. You think, you see this guy who's massive and can skate and you thought like, wow, this is a really impressive combination of traits. And he's just kept it up all year. He's a goal per game pace in Russia's top junior league right now, well over a point per game. And he's, like I said, he's got the size, he has a skill. He's also really physical. So you're just looking at this, I think, just a really exciting combination of traits here and a guy who you're projecting to be an impactful power winger at. At the NHL level. And you know, I can. You could watch PR off. And I think there will be people who. And people in the league who I talk to who will argue he's not only with Joseph and Tupan, they might argue he's ahead of them, quite frankly. Like he's. That he's a really uber talented player. And I think just because of the traits and just like how toolsy he is, it's going to. It might even be a more fascinating conversation than the Matve Mitchkov conversation in the Bedard draft, because I think this guy's got a legit claim to the number one position in terms of pure talent as things stand right now.
- [06:49]
Max Bultman
All right, so if that top three is kind of the headline of this article, I think one of the other places my eyes go immediately you had three NTDP players in the top 10. Now, Sammy Nelson won't be an NTDP player by the time it is his draft year, but after a couple of kind of quieter years for the program, I think that's really notable. Scott, to see Sammy Nelson at four Carter Meyer at six, Diego Gutierrez at number seven on Corey's list.
- [07:13]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, a year ago we were all in Sarnia for different portions of the U17 Worlds. And coming out of that tournament, people were talking about Casey Neutron and Luke Shearer and these good performances that they've had. And I remember sitting in Sarnia thinking, I don't know about these kids. And a year later, only one of those players is even in my top 64, and just barely. And you compare and contrast that to the way that I think Willis and Meyer and Fitzhenry and Coutier, as a bunch of these kids looked over the course of this tournament and have looked over the course of their introduction to the NTDP this year, and they look like legit top of the draft talents. I don't know whether any of them will get into that Alexei Joseph conversation, the Landon Dupont conversation in terms of at the very, very top, but they're going to be in and around that range. And I think we could be in a scenario where we see like Will Smith and Ryan Leonard and Gabe Pro where we see three or four of these guys, and before that, Logan Cooley and Cutter Gautier and Jimmy Snuggard. We see three or four of these guys right in the thick of it at the top of the draft conversation next year. Whether that's top 10, top 15, we'll see. But they're going to be in the conversation. And that's not a conversation that any of the kids coming out of the program have been in over the last two drafts.
- [08:27]
Max Bultman
And I think it's the premium positions too, here. Right, Chris? I mean, this is something you notice right away. Sammy Nelson and Carter Meyer, the two centers, like that's always going to be one way to, if you're a talented player at that position, it's a good way to be up the draft board.
- [08:39]
Chris Peters
Well, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you look at this year's draft and you see the need for centers. And now you, you know, we're, we're going to see some players that are in those premium positions. And, you know, I think you even go further down the list and what I think strikes me about this U17 team, beyond the top tier guys, is that there is depth to it. There is, there is more than, you know, the first line of players to look at. I mean, you know, you look at some of the players that, that came into the program as the most heralded guys, and we're not, you know, talking about some of them yet, you know, because I'm thinking like guys like Trevor Daley Jr. Rocco Pelosi, players that are going to be around, you know, these, these discussions as, as top tier prospects. And I think this is also another example of every country, every, you know, team, every. There's, there's, there's always cycles and we've been in basically two down years for the US and it's all doom and gloom and maybe the NTDP should be canceled and all these other things that are going on. But it always seems to come back around. And I think that this group that, that just played in the under 17 challenge, though they did not win the tournament, are going to, you know, be a factor in the rise of, or the, you know, the, the re. Rise, I guess you could say of the NTDP and the American class in general.
- [10:01]
Scott Wheeler
Not to rub salt in the, in the wound, but my eyebrows did raise today as we record this on Wednesday for its Friday release when the NTD or the CHL USA sort of series captains came out and JP Hurlburt is going to be wearing a letter for team chl.
- [10:16]
Chris Peters
Yeah. You don't think that that wasn't a little, not just salt in the wound, but a poke in the eye from the CHL as well.
- [10:26]
Corey Pronman
And team captain is a guy who like they didn't even invite to the holy camp.
- [10:32]
Scott Wheeler
I was, for what it's worth on Malhotra, I was turd. The Helinka camp invite was because of the bch.
- [10:37]
Corey Pronman
Because yeah, he was ineligible player. Yeah, yeah, he was, he was ineligible to play.
- [10:42]
Max Bultman
But that is a real fact. I mean you talk about like canceling the NTDP and no one's saying that, but it is a very open question how many of these guys will still like you have to ask that about every prospect at this point?
- [10:52]
Chris Peters
Well, yeah, you know, you said no one's saying that. A lot of people are saying that, Max. A lot of people are, are, are saying it and, and not, you know, no one here. No one these f, no one here. But like the conversation is in this new landscape, where does it fit? And basically the NTDP had two of the worst potential years to have the classes that they had going into what we're going into in terms of the CHL eligibility and all of those other things. And these players now have multiple options available to them that they didn't necessarily plan to explore before. And I think in Hurlburt's case there's, you know, the, his history has not smiled too well on the players that left a year early. But again I don't think many of them that have left had the pedigree that that particular player did relative to the rest of the group. So this is a very new ground. And so I think a lot of people are watching what's happening with JP Hurlburt and, and how that, how that's a factor. But you know, obviously like I, you know, I'm, I'm. I'm biased because I work there and I've seen it firsthand how it works. You know, the thing is, is that until there is a greater, like more consistency across the board in American hockey, to have the same level of development that they've been able to provide at the ntdp where it is playing the college teams, where it is, the weight training and everything else that they have there and the facilities that they have for, for training and development, that is where, you know, until that's met, you can't get rid of it. There's still going to be benefits to it in that way.
- [12:36]
Scott Wheeler
I will say that the. One of the messages that I got from a CHL GM and again, not to rub too much salt in the wound, but one of the messages I got from a CHL GM was at U17s last week was that the conversation that they were having amongst each other, I. E. CHL general managers were having amongst each other was that they feel more confident now that the players that they've taken who have NTDP ties or who could end up at the NTDP are more likely to consider them than they ever have before. Whether that happens on Mass, whether it's just one offs like JP Hurlburt here and there, but they're now feeling like going after those top American kids is a real opportunity for them. And for a long time the default was just those kids are going to the ntdp. And maybe that's good. Maybe the NTDP now has to be a part of this recruiting war and sell the ntdp. And I know they're working on upgrades to the arena and all of that. Maybe that's good that that's a bit of that kick in the pants will prove positive for the NTDP as well to sort of pull up their bootstraps and, and get involved in recruiting like everybody else does.
- [13:35]
Chris Peters
Yeah, and the one thing just to that, Scott, that, you know, in terms of the recruitment element, I still think that we're going to see players try to pick where they're going to go and as a result are going to play the game the way that it's always been played. That I'm not coming unless London picks me or Windsor picks me or Kitchener picks me. Those kinds of things that will still be the case and those teams I think are, are well positioned. But I would also agree with the GM sentiment. More teams are going to feel emboldened to pick those players and get into the race than they have been before.
- [14:12]
Max Bultman
All right, let's pivot from there to the other big international tournament, Corey this week, which not the big U20 tournament but nonetheless a little bit of a precursor to what we'll see at the World juniors at the U20 Five Nations. And the big storylines here mainly surround team Sweden.
- [14:27]
Corey Pronman
Corey. Yeah, I think that one after what I thought was a pretty average summer showcase for him, Viggo Bjork comes into this tournament and was one of Sweden's best players, top two line center for them, played both special teams, leading scorer for them, made a real impact. And as a guy who you wondered like okay, well where's he going to fit in this draft? Is he a special enough small guy? Like what, like what's the, what's the projection here? I think he showed at this tournament things he's shown in, in past events that he's got a chance to be one of those 5, 9, 510 forwards who could make it as a pro and help a team win games. So that was a real positive for them. But it wasn't all positives for, for Team Sweden given that they pretty much brought their almost their entire world junior roster minus a couple of key players like a Sasha Boumidian who's playing in college and Leo Shelley and Walanius who was injured. It was most of the key names and their tournament was just okay. In particular a 51 loss to Finland. A Finland team that doesn't have several of their best players on their team at that tournament. A little concerning, a little concerning that like you know, their high end forwards like Victor Eckle and like Anton Frindell didn't like really stand out. Ivar Stenberg, despite his tremendous start in the shl I thought was average at times in this event. So they've got some things to work on going into the big tournament. They definitely didn't look like a team. I think on paper you thought okay this is a gold medal threat here, they could beat the U.S. they could play with Canada. But they didn't look like that last week.
- [16:03]
Scott Wheeler
That's B rated. Vigo Bjork, who's having a nice, a nice week last week. Yeah and I will say I think Wilson will his brother Wilson, who's also in college with Colorado College, is going to be on that team as well. So they're they were missing some guys, but not the big dogs were there. Eklund was there, Frontel was there. Like they should have been more convincing than they were.
- [16:26]
Max Bultman
And Corey, one of the guys we talked about last episode as one of the risers of this 2026 NHL Draft class was Oliver Savanto. He's another one that stood out for you at this tournament.
- [16:35]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, he had five points, mind you, four of those points came in one game. But still very impressive performance. He was on the power play for them. He's able to create chances at the U20 level. Their other draft eligible defenseman you hope are also looked very solid in this environment. Looked like a guy. I think both of them will be on the world Junior team. Exactly what role they're in, you know, we'll see. But I think both of them look like they're going to be on the world Junior team for Finland and they both held their own at this level and I think definitely help their stock in the eye of NHL personnel.
- [17:05]
Max Bultman
All right, let's take a quick break right there. We're going to come back and we're going to talk about one of the other big events going on in the hockey world, that being Michigan State, Penn State.
- [17:18]
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- [17:45]
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- [19:36]
Max Bultman
All right, we're back. And in the previous segment we talked about some of the most interesting hockey events of the last week. Another was just between two college teams, but that is how loaded Michigan State and Penn State are with prospects. Scott, originally we had hoped that you, me and Corey all might be at this series. In the end it's just you who is there. So let's, let's start here. Who impressed you the most in this two game series?
- [19:57]
Scott Wheeler
Oh well, I think the standout of the weekend was actually Charlie Stramel. I thought Strehmel was a force in the second game. He was the best player on either team by a country mile. Like just involved in everything that that Michigan State generated. They won five nothing. He had four, maybe five points if I'm remembering correctly. Definitely had four points. And but even in the first game, which he just had a single point in, in a 21 over sort of tighter 21 over overtime game, he looked like people were sort of talking in the crowd of okay, Charlie looks like a stud here. And I think Porter that my takeaway from it from Charlie in particular was that Porter Marton has really benefited from playing with him and Daniel Russell, Daniel Russell's their other linemate. He's going to get if not an NHL contract and an HL one for sure. Like he looks like a pro hockey player. And Porter was good in both of the games. But I thought his line mates were arguably the two best players on the weekend. So that top line is a lot to handle. They're all big boys. They can all move. Porter actually looks a little bit a step behind at times and can sort of stumble over his feet at times out there, but Porter's been a huge positive for them. But, I mean, Michigan State top to bottom was pretty impressive. I think that was the biggest takeaway of the weekend, was just those two teams, despite entering the weekend first and third in the quote unquote rankings. It's not even close. Like, it's not. They. They didn't even look like they were in the same conversation as. As clubs at this stage, so.
- [21:30]
Corey Pronman
Well, there were a few people who made comments about to me beforehand, but Penn State being a little bit of a, you know, paper number three there, you know, paper tiger.
- [21:42]
Chris Peters
Yeah, big time.
- [21:44]
Scott Wheeler
Big time. Just the. How organized that team is, how big and strong they are, how disorganized Penn State looked on the other side of the ice. The contrast was start, like, they've got that team like a fine, oiled machine, and Trey Augustine is arguably the best goalie in the country. So I think they're a tough out and they're just so big. Like, you go through the lineup. Strel, Ralph Lindstrom, like, it's just a lot of big, big, big boys. Barnhill, like, it's just. They're a big team. They've got skill. Their freshman line of Romani, Eric Nilsson and Riker Lee was excellent. Riker Lee could have had two or three, and he's got some dog in him and got ejected from the second game. And they, like, they just have. They look like how I think a complete college hockey team should look, and their. Their status as the number one team in the country is pretty well earned.
- [22:37]
Corey Pronman
Scott, Chris, are either of you thinking about Lindstrom on the world Junior team right now, like, thinking about not bringing him, or is it not even a conversation? There's still. There's still a spot for the guy who missed a lot of hockey. He's very toolsy, very fast, very physical. But he's got one point and, sorry, one goal, two points so far on the season.
- [22:59]
Scott Wheeler
I don't. I don't personally think that Kaden's in the mix here. I think Latent shifts. He looks tired there. There's flashes of skill and power. He had a breakway through the middle and some flashes inside the offensive zone where he tries to beat two or three guys and normally. Normally would bowl his way to the net, but couldn't quite get there. He hit some Posts. He had some looks. He was getting all frustrated over the course of the weekend. I know when in talking to their coaching staff that they think he's owed five or six points early in this season, but I just don't think when, when you're making roster decisions for Hockey Canada, I don't think that he's going to be a huge part of the conversation at this stage and where he's at.
- [23:35]
Corey Pronman
I think Nate Lehman said the same thing about Roger McQueen at Province Too. A lot of guys owed a lot of points.
- [23:40]
Chris Peters
Yeah. But then, you know what? Then they should have them. Like, that's, that's always my thing is like, you know, and I think in, in particularly in Caden and quite frankly, in Roger's case, these look like two players that to find their way, they're not only coming back from injury and trying to stay healthy, they're level jumping. And I think that that's the thing that now everybody is keenly aware of is that it was a level jump from CHL to college hockey. And that was always going to be a bit more difficult to manage than I think many people perhaps understood, especially at the Big Ten level and especially when you're trying to find ice time on a team that's as loaded as Michigan State. Maybe McQueen has less of an excuse in that way, but I think, you know, something that, that someone else had said to me about just kind of the, the situation with Lindstrom is that they're not for like at Michigan State. They're not forcing him into being a, you know, a top six offensive contributor. They're playing him, you know, second power play, other things like that, where he's not being force fed because of who he is and his draft status and all that other stuff. They're kind of meeting him where he's at a little bit more. And I think where he's at right now is probably going to leave him outside of the mix because I think if you're bringing him for Team Canada, you're, you're, you're, you're almost bringing him on a projection that hasn't been proved out this season. In my mind, if I'm bringing him.
- [25:10]
Corey Pronman
It'S just because I feel like there's like a role for a guy with that kind of size, speed, physicality, you're thinking, you know, bottom part of the lineups, penalty killing. Someone who's going to rock a lot of those Team USA defensemen, but probably not play the highest even strength minutes. I think that's the, I mean, we're got. We're going to do this next week when we talk about the world junior teams and where we think what the depth charts look like right now. But I think that's what that's a fascinating one because I think coming into the year we thought if he's healthy, he's probably on the team. And now we're about a month or so into the college season and you know, Canada is a lot deeper at Ford than they are at defense. So there's significant competition there. Depending on, especially depending on the NHL loans. I think that one's going to be fascinating to see what they decide with him because they are going to decide they're not doing a camp. They're deciding based on what they've watched in the first two months of the season.
- [26:00]
Scott Wheeler
He was positive for them in August, too. I thought most of their players were dreadful at the summer showcase and him and Michael Hage were really the only two players who had an excellent game or two over the course of that. And that's to Cory's point, if you are taking him, I think that's what you're hoping for. You're hoping that you can get one really good game out of him, a few great shifts over the course of the tournament out of him. I don't think you're counting on him to, to play on your first line. Those, those roles are already accounted for. He should, he should be using Charlie Stramel as a model. Like Charlie had eight and 12 points in his first two years in college hockey. Right. So I, I think straight he's if look no further than within your own team, like Caden and Stramel can use each other a little bit in terms of what the path forward is. They need to be patient.
- [26:46]
Max Bultman
So that's the Michigan State side of things. Now let's shift into our Now Weekly Gavin McKenna check in here on, on Penn State. Corey, you mentioned the paper tiger effect. I don't think we're calling Gavin McKenna a paper tiger, but this was always kind of the, the series to watch, right? I mean, there was buzz that, you know, McKenna could go to Michigan State and he spurns them for a Penn State team that maybe doesn't typically play the same level as schedule. And now, you know, you put him up against the number one team in the country, Scott, and it sounds like it was a pretty tough atmosphere for him on top of what he was facing on the other side of the ice.
- [27:20]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, it was. I mean, we've all been in that arena at some point in Another over the course of the last several years and the Munsters know know what they're doing and they made sure that they were prepared for Gavin McKenna. They booed him during the national anthems. They booed him when he was introduced to the blue line. They booed him every time he touched the puck. They had signs prepared for him. It was enemy terr territory for sure. He was the only player on Penn State that got that treatment. And then he didn't play well. He created still over the course of the weekend the bulk of their offense. I actually thought it was the worst weekend yet that their top line of demarcico we Bush and Serrato has had like those guys were, were not impactful in either of the games. Gavin was their most impactful forward on the puck. He created probably 10 of their 15 best looks over the course of the weekend, whether it was his playmaking or his shot himself. He hit a post, he scored their lone goal though it was bit of a re. Awkward redirect. But the big thing with Gavin, the big talking point when I sat down for drinks with a couple of NHL scouts and agents on both of the nights and even around the rink, the big talking point with Gavin was a pretty strong frustration from hockey folks with his effort level off the puck. There were a couple of back checks where he turned over the puck at the offensive zone blue line and immediately straightened up. Didn't even move his feet even if he was going to lose the race. Didn't even try to make it a race. Pucks in the offensive zone that were rimmed around his side of the boards and went the other way because he just didn't get to the wall and intercept them. Stick checks that he could have got up and under that were two strides away from him that he just didn't work for. Like there was a lot of that and that's always been a. The competitiveness and off the puck has always been a bit of a talking point with McKenna. But I think in college he now knows that he can't go and get necessarily win all of those pucks like he could in junior with his little stick lifts and his little steals. And as a result, I think he's not even engaging in many cases because he knows that he's not. He's not quite strong enough to be in those battles. And it's. It's pretty jarring and it's going to turn. It's already turning people off, but it's. If he doesn't, if someone doesn't give him A kick in the pants and say man, you just need, it's all about effort level that is within your control. It's going to turn some people off over the course of the season here.
- [29:32]
Corey Pronman
They've got one of the strangest schedules I've ever seen before for a major college program. You know we talked, we talked about kick them a little bit about the non conference games they played in but after this they got like this murderer's Rove now of series where they go Michigan State last weekend, then Michigan this weekend and then Minnesota next weekend and then they're off for like six, seven weeks in a row or something like that. So it's just if, if he doesn't have like two good weekends here, it's just going to be like so much discussion and speculation and talking about him before he actually plays his next college game. Although he will play at the World Juniors.
- [30:10]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah. And you know the schedule thing is, is, is a bit of a weird one Guy Gadowski is coaching the Spangler cup team that, that they're sending. So there was going to be a lull for that. I think. You know, they also anticipated that they might have some guys gone for World Juniors. We've seen some teams do this. I don't know that I've ever seen one this big of a gap between games. Like their next game after that Minnesota series, which is in two weeks is January 3rd at RIT. So obviously McKenna probably not going to be there. I, I wrote a column this week because I, I've been sitting on it just kind of waiting to see if there was going to be a corner turned for Gavin McKenna. And I basically my column was when is it okay to start worrying about his status as number one? And I, my, my, my, my, my. The way I feel about it right now is that. But it's still too early because mainly no one is really necessarily jumped up and said I'm the guy or I am a real true contender. I think there are players that are trending in that direction. But in context, Gavin McKenna at this stage of his draft season has fewer points than James Hagan's did last year. He is on pace for 44 points in a 40 game season that puts them not in a, not in the class of the fantillies and the celebrities. And you know that he, it would be more than Hagan's had but like the guys that were Hobie Baker winners and if like we're talking, what do we say about him? He's the biggest college recruit probably ever in terms of that. And so to me there is concern.
- [31:53]
Corey Pronman
How could he win the Hobie Baker? He's like. He's like the third or fourth best player on his team right now.
- [31:57]
Chris Peters
Exactly. I mean like. And I think that's another important point. Corey, like, he's not on the top line of his own team, which is not really his own doing. That's. That's a chemistry thing that was established a season ago. So that's something that. But. But now. And this comes back to the decision as well. You go back to the decision and if it was between Michigan State, where you could play with five first round draft picks, and Michigan or. And Penn State where you can play with maybe two other NHL players or regulars like Serato, Jackson Smith. And Jackson Smith has only been okay this year, despite what the point total suggests. I think that this is kind of. Now you're looking at all these things and if I'm Penn State, I gotta be nervous now. This great moment that I've had to get this player. If you don't get that player to number one, good luck getting another top prospect. And that is, that is the thing that that is. Is going to be kind of in the. In the wings here. So I also think the team structure has been an odd fit for him, especially with who he has to play with and the way things are working that Aiden think is hurt. So, you know, there's other things that are. There are other factors at play, but I am still relatively surprised at where we're at right now and the discussions that we're having and that we have to have them. And like I said, it is too early to say he's not the number one prospect because we have an entire body of work to look at beyond the 12 games that we've seen this season. But I also don't know that it's trending in a positive direction right now, which is scary. And to Corey's point, here comes this long layoff. Go to the World Juniors. What if he doesn't have a dominant. And I'm not. I'm not talking about a good World Juniors. He needs to have a dominant World Juniors. This is not a strong field outside of Sweden, and so you better dominate that tournament if you're going to be in this discussion for the rest of the season.
- [33:59]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think that's kind of the thing that I think a lot of people are struggling with. Just like, where's the line is.
- [34:03]
Sundays for Dogs Announcer
It's.
- [34:03]
Corey Pronman
It's not like this is a CHL season. It's a college season. So he's played 12 games. That's a quarter of the season. Do you wait till 20 games, 25 games, wait till the playoffs? Like, when's the line? When you start asking, okay, this is no longer a little. Little bump. Like. Like Logan Cooley, for example. His first month or so of his college season, he didn't score, and by the end of it, he was one of the leading scorers in college. Sometimes that happens in the period of a dozen games. And at some point, we will cross a line here where we say, okay, there's no obvious alternative, and maybe this is just a bad draft class and you got to find somebody and. And is it the 511 winger? Or do you like Ty and Lawrence? Do you like Keenan Verhoff? Do you like Belkatz? Do you like Stenberg? You know.
- [34:48]
Scott Wheeler
It'S.
- [34:48]
Corey Pronman
It's difficult because I feel like this is almost like a product of a hype machine that I've tried not to be a part of, but has been following this guy just because of how productive he was as a junior and the accolades he's won is like, you know, he's like, he gets the national broadcast games, his first two games in college, he's get. The media hype is insane. Puts unrealistic expectations on him. And it's unfortunate because he's a great, great hockey player, one of the most skilled players I have ever seen. Like, the things he does with the puck at the college level, even in the games where he's not getting a point, even in that Michigan State series, there's still one or two times a game where he does, like, a holy F moment where you're. Yeah, it's like, it's very, very special puck play. So, like, it's difficult, right, because, like, I don't want to be seen as, like, we're beating this guy up because at the end of the day, he's still outpacing what Higgins and Ken Johnson and Matty Benirs did, and he's still having one of the. He's still one of the very best draft eligibles in college. We've seen in the. In the modern era. There's just like this tier of Jack Eichel and fan Tilly, Macklin, Celebrini that we know if you clear that you cross into the special territory, and it's been clear to date, he is not in that territory, but being a level below Celebrini and Eichel and Fantilli is not the end of the world as well.
- [36:17]
Scott Wheeler
And to Chris's point about him not being under the. On the first line, they played him 24 minutes in the, in the first game, the Friday game. That was more than any forward or defenseman on either of the teams. He led the game in time, on ice. And then in the second game, I thought it was notable that about midway through, they put Serato at center with him. No disrespect to Reese La Bach and some of his line mates that he's played with, but Serato is the driver on that team. And I do wonder, I do wonder if that's coming. Like, I wonder if they, they. If they know that they have to play him 20 to 23 minutes a night, then that means that Serato and we, Bush and. And those guys can't be out there when he, when he's out there separately from them. So I, I wonder if they find a way to get him and Serato in particular paired up here for the second half.
- [37:01]
Chris Peters
I think, I think they have to. Scott, for all the reasons that I said too, is, like, it's not just about being a more competitive team this year. It's now in this new era of college hockey, it's all about perception. Did you put Gavin McKenna in the best possible position to succeed? And if you did not, that says a lot to other recruits. So you have to make sure that you're unfortunately, rightly or wrongly, because it's not necessarily fair to Matt DeMarcico, who's been awesome for them, but you also are like, hey, this is the greater, this is the greater purpose of what we have to do this season. And, and that's a reason why, I think, like, when we talk about not forcing Kaden Lindstrom into a role he's not prepared for, you know that you have, you have to build your team structure around this. You know the right things. And usually it's not around one player, but I think in Penn State's case, it has to be.
- [37:52]
Corey Pronman
Scott insinuated this when he's talking about the series, but I didn't think he was like, McKenna was terrible in that, that weekend. I thought he generated some chances. The issue is, I thought the best player in that, Trey Augustine, like, he, like he was impacted. I thought those games with some of.
- [38:08]
Scott Wheeler
The saves he was making, Trey was excellent. But I still think they deserve to win both of those games. Like, they deserve to walk away from the weekend with the sweep to echo.
- [38:19]
Corey Pronman
The points of how whether you deserved some more goals or whatever. I guess you could have argued McKenna could have deserved an extra point or so kind of thing.
- [38:29]
Chris Peters
He did get one. Gimme.
- [38:31]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, that went off someone's leg or something, right?
- [38:33]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:34]
Max Bultman
I think we all deserve more points personally, but we'll pick back up on the McKenna side of things on the next episode of as McKenna Turns. For now, we take a break. Be right back with a Mailbag.
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- [40:35]
Chris Peters
All right, we're.
- [40:36]
Max Bultman
Back and we're going to get into the mailbag now. First one is from our discord, Pat Steele Scott he wants to know how you'd compare Ivar Stenberg to recent top 10 forward picks. He gives examples of Misa Demidov, Beckett, Seneca, Porter, Martone, Hagan's, Ryan, Leonard, Mafi Mitchkov.
- [40:53]
Scott Wheeler
I think based off what we've saw out of Demidov over the last year and a half now this is coming out of his draft year, but even dating back to his draft year, I think I'd be very hard I'd be very hard pressed to place Stenberg in that kind of a conversation. As for the rest, like is Stenberg in, in the same rage as the Martones and the the Ryan Leonard's? I think yes. I think based off of what Stenberg accomplished at the J20 level, based off what he's accomplished early on at the SHL level, based off what we've seen of him internationally, he has looked at times like a premium, premium future first line wing in the NHL. And those players make a lot of money and they're big parts of teams and I think that's the path that Stenberg is on and I think it's a similar path to the one that Martone's on and the one, maybe to a lesser degree that Ryan Leonard's on. I think Leonard will probably end up being more of a sort of complimentary scorer identity guy than a true sort of upper echelon offensive creator like you'd hope that a Martone becomes or that a Stenberg becomes. But I think he's, he's in that kind of tier. Like he'd go 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 in just about any draft class. I'm not sure whether he's a one or a two, but he's, he'd be in that, that sort of next tier at the top of a draft class.
- [42:11]
Max Bultman
All right, next one is from Dustin M. He wants to know what you would say Max Plantz is projecting as at this point. Is he a legit NHL and if so, could you see him as a top sixer?
- [42:20]
Corey Pronman
Scott?
- [42:22]
Scott Wheeler
Well, we're talking about James Haggins a little bit earlier relative to Gavin McKinnon. You know, who's been more productive than James Hagens over the last two seasons and who's from his same age group is Max Plant. Not to say that they're in the same conversation or the same echelon as prospects, but Max has been, when healthy, one of the very best young players and one of the very best players in his age group in the country. And I think Max is going to have a big world juniors here. He's going to be counted upon on that team. The coaching staff is going to trust him on that team. I could see him being one of the three or four or five leading scorers in the tournament. When it's over, he's going to be on PP1 for Team USA. He's now one of the better players in this age group and I think he needs to be treated as such as a prospect. It is always tricky when you're sort of that 5, 10, 511 forward who isn't a burner, and despite the fact that his dad played in the NHL, skating has never been his strength. And you see him around the rink and he doesn't sort of have that NHL body. And I think that's going to follow him like he's a kid who's going to have to go to the AHL and prove it and continue to produce and continue to figure it out and climate like he's. He's not necessarily going to be the direct to the NHL out of college hockey talent, but I think he's got the tools and the smarts and the IQ to make that. The last part of the question is legit NHL or if so, top six legit NHL? I think, yeah, that's very realistic. Now, top six is. It is hard to play in the top six in the NHL, even if you've been as productive as Max Plant has been over the last couple of years. So I'd very much say the book is out on that side of it. But is he in a better spot now than even he was when he, when they took him in the second round? Yes. And I think he, he looks like a legit prospect.
- [44:04]
Max Bultman
My thing with Plant is, I think when I've watched him, certainly, you know, he's a Red Wings prospect, I think he looks like kind of the ideal playmaker on a third line to give a third line some offense, because he does. He's very smart. He competes hard enough. You can play him in matchups. Chris?
- [44:17]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that his versatility is a big factor here in that you can kind of put him in a lot of different spots. And last year was a bit of a bit player at the World Juniors, and now he has a chance to be, you know, one of the top guys, which I think is going to be really exciting. And really, you know, quite frankly, one of the few forwards that us has to hang their hat on for this year, based on what we've seen from some of the other guys that are in the mix. But yeah, I think his vision has always been. One of the things that stands out to me is that he, you know, he understands how to create offense. He was often the, the, the guy that was feeding Cole Iserman on all the power plays at the NTDP over the years. You know, you can kind of put them in, in, in good positions, you know, on, in various positions. You can throw them on the bumper, you can throw them on the flank, you can Kind of throw them in a lot of different places, which I think think he could do at the NHL level as well. His, his, his anticipation, his vision and then his execution and ability to finish off plays I think are all, you know, really high end traits. And I, I don't know that I saw a season like this coming from him, let alone the rest of Minnesota Duluth in this new era of, of hockey. But boy, has it been a lot of fun to watch and he's a big reason for it. So I think if you're a Red Wings fan, I, I do think that this is a, a player that's trending very positively. I do think he'll be an NHL player. I think he will go through, you know, the Grand Rapids finishing school before he goes to the NHL, but, but I do think he'll be in the NHL. I agree. I think third line playmaker, second power play. That's a strong possibility for him.
- [45:50]
Scott Wheeler
People had written Adam Guy on off a year ago, like on the Minnesota Duluth, like completely written.
- [45:56]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I was concerned.
- [45:58]
Corey Pronman
I'm lukewarm on him. For what it's worth. Plant, that is a guy I like. Guy on Plant. Like I think it's like I respect the skill, respect to compete. If he's in your top nine, you're not winning a lot of games. You're looking up great. They're like, he's like a Matias Pacelli type of guy. Like you're, if he's on, if he's in your lineup, you're either getting rid of him like, like Arizona just did or you're not losing winning a lot of games like, like Toronto is.
- [46:23]
Max Bultman
All right, let's stay in college hockey here. Corey and. And Cave Dirtis wants to know how the stealing for Charlie Stramel has changed since joining Michigan State. Obviously his start to his college career at Wisconsin was really tough. He reunites with Adam Nightingale, his former NTDP coach in East Lansing. And to your point, Corey from earlier, like one of the stories of. Or actually this was Scott's pointer, but one of the stories of that series and now one of the more impactful players on their team. How is his ceiling shifted now?
- [46:50]
Corey Pronman
Pretty similar to what I thought when he was a draft. I thought he was a middle six center, like really good third line center on a good team. Could be a 2C on a. On a subpar team. That's what I thought he was drafted. That's what I still think he is. I think people are only probably asking this question because there was some hate towards this player when he was drafted in the subsequent year, in the subsequent year was highly deserved. He was just awful that first post draft year. But he's exactly what I thought he was. He's just better than what his haters thought he was.
- [47:20]
Chris Peters
And one thing I'll say about Charlie and really this is about Adam Nightingale as well. And why I think it is a good thing that Kaden Lindstrom is there is that he, you know, he's, he's had some reclamation projects of guys that worked with, you know, Isaac Howard wins with. With, you know, going back to Nightingale. And yes, they, he had coached them before. He had familiarity with them. But you know, Mike Hastings and Scott Sandal and are two really good coaches. They didn't necessarily get. Get out of those players what they needed to. Adam Nightingale has. And so again, I don't think it's a slight to those coaches. I just think it's more of a, a this what, what he's done. And then to Corey's point, you know, the year after his draft, it was like, oh, like that, that, that felt like a player that was going south quickly. And now, yeah, I think more than anything he's re established himself as to where he was and now you've got the prospect that you thought he was. And sometimes you have to be patient with those bigger players.
- [48:21]
Max Bultman
All right, one more in the college hockey ranks, we've heard a lot more about, or this is from fighting Sue. We've heard a lot about McKenna's adjustment to the NCAA. But what have you thought of Keaton Verhoff so far? Chris?
- [48:31]
Chris Peters
Oh, you know, I think like in, in. In a way his goal numbers look good. Like, I think that, that's certainly something that people look at. You know, the. He hasn't had as many assists, which, which is another thing. And Corey and I actually were talking about him off, off, offline at one point, just about, you know, he hasn't supplanted Gavin McKenna, but what he has done is I think he's shown maturity.
- [48:54]
Corey Pronman
He's.
- [48:54]
Chris Peters
He's growing into his role. I think that North Dakota has brought him along gradually as opposed to throwing him into the fire. And that has really helped him. You look at the size, you look at the mobility, you look at the things that he does. I think, you know, he's, he's one of those guys where I really think the second half is going to be the big story for him. When he, when they really get into the meat and the teeth of their NCHC schedule, which is going to be a challenge. And, but, but you know, I think what I've seen so far this year is nothing really out of the ordinary. I'm not underwhelmed, I'm not overwhelmed. I think he's more kind of delivering what we thought he could be and still projects is that potential, you know, upside of a, of a top pairing defenseman. You know, I, I, I haven't seen anything to dissuade me from where he was at. So I think, you know, again, like, he hasn't jumped ahead of McKenna in that regard, but I think he's still kind of hanging around the discussion of that top three, a challenger for McKenna as, as we thought he was at the beginning of the season.
- [49:58]
Sundays for Dogs Announcer
Yeah.
- [49:58]
Corey Pronman
I think if you were to get Verhoff over McKenna, it's not because he leaped McKenna, it's because McKenna jumped down.
- [50:05]
Chris Peters
Yeah, agreed. Agreed.
- [50:07]
Scott Wheeler
And on Verhoff, I, and I'm not to throw shade here, but I think the conversation around him in the media at large has been excessive. Like some of the ways that people have talked about him, quotes about him being the best defenseman out of Western Canada in the last 25 years, and some of the ways that people have talked about him, I don't think recognizes the role that he's playing on that team, which is about 19 minutes a night. He's not even on their penalty kill at the moment. That's, I was told by their staff that that's going to come, that they plan to use him on the penalty kill more as the season progresses. But it's been a good, not sensational. This kid's the best defense prospect. Like, this isn't Matthew Schaefer we're talking about. This isn't Cale Makar. I don't think that's the caliber of talent here. And it does seem like that is the way that people seem to be talking about him. And I think that needs a little bit of a course correction here.
- [51:01]
Corey Pronman
Percent chances on the world junior team, I'd say 20%.
- [51:05]
Scott Wheeler
I think it's higher than that. I'd say 40, 45%. With the way that some of those d look like they're going to be staying in the NHL, they're going to need some righties. I think he'll, I think he'll be on that. If Zane and Harrison aren't there, I think he's on the team.
- [51:19]
Max Bultman
All right, hang on. We got to save that for next week. We got a whole big world junior deep dive coming. We can't be burning Bullets right now. Scott Natehawk, 1688, wants to know your thoughts on Roman Cancerov. Where can you see him playing in Chicago and would you pick him or Nick Lardis as the better prospect?
- [51:35]
Scott Wheeler
Oh, well, the challenge that they face is now that they've, they've got a lot of these kids who I think belong in a future NHL. If you're building your roster and you're Chicago, I think if you're any other team in the league, you look at what Cancerov has accomplished in the khl, which is playing to a point per game and being one of the best young players in that league, which is a very impressive accomplishment. And you look at Nick Lardis scoring 71 goals in the OHL last year and being a point per game player in the AHL this year and other teams in the league, I think would pencil those players in. The challenge for them is that I don't think, and we've talked about it on the pod before, I don't think both of those kids can be on that team when you've already got Frank Nazar and Oliver Moore and Connor Bedard and it just becomes a numbers game for them. And that's unfortunate because I think Lardis is a legit goal scoring talent. I think he could play on any power play in the NHL and his speed could be a factor on a team. And I think Cancerov's the same like Cancerov is an excellent skater, he can shoot the puck, he's got skill. I think he's got a little bit more of dog in him than, than Nick Lardis does. But I think they're about comparable prospects and they're probably vying for the same job, which is one job, not two.
- [52:42]
Chris Peters
Yeah, and I, I've been eating a little bit of crow on Nick Lardis too because I didn't think that some like I, I, I thought he would have a tougher transition of the AHL than he has. And, and he's looked really good and a lot of the things, you know. So I think there are some goals, you know, like he's not going to put up. He's not a 70, you know, I don't think he's a 50 goal scorer in the NHL. I don't think he's a 40 goal scorer in the NHL. But I do think that he is trending super positively in those offensive elements. I didn't think it would translate as well if you were to ask me to pick between the two players. I might lean more towards largest now than I would have if we had this conversation before we got a chance to really look at him at the ahl. But I've been impressed with what I've seen so far.
- [53:23]
Scott Wheeler
The one timer on the flank is a legit weapon for him.
- [53:26]
Chris Peters
Lethal.
- [53:27]
Max Bultman
All right, staying with Chicago, Corey McLean 1004 wants to know about Vaclav Nestor sales. Hot start with UMass and what do you think, what have you thought of him and what do you think his NHL timeline will be?
- [53:38]
Corey Pronman
I think he's been one of the most impressive drafted players in the first half of the season in terms of guys who have. Have elevated in my eyes, in terms of where I thought of them six months ago to where they are now. Like the level of offense he showed right out of the gate at UMass is, is really impressive. When you spend. You can find out the fact that he's 66, that he can skate, that he has a good work ethic. You look what he did at the end of the spring last year in the USHL to combine with this year. Like, I think this guy is trending from oh you. He's big and he's fast. Like, but like, you know, like is there enough talent here to score? Do you like, hey, this could be like a, like a 6, 6 scoring forward in the NHL. He could be a top six winger. Like I said, very, very impressive. Only a dozen games. We'll see how his world junior goes. We'll see how the rest of the season goes. But just, I mean every night's on the score sheet every night. He's playing a big role for that team, helping them win games. They said just a lot of positives there.
- [54:41]
Scott Wheeler
He. He works too. Yeah, like, he works.
- [54:45]
Chris Peters
He does, he does. And to. To Scott's earlier point about Chicago having too many of these smaller, you know, kind of or average size wings and forwards. You know, they draft Mason west and backlab Nestor still last year probably primarily for that reason, but now you're even seeing exceptional growth. Nestor Sil, to me we saw this in the playoffs last year in the ushl, it has been an. A seamless transition to college and all the things that Corey said, I mean like it is truly, truly impressive for a player with just tremendous upside. And when you have the skill that he has in the 66 package, pretty impressive.
- [55:29]
Scott Wheeler
How about Adina getting surprisingly to the state semifinal when they weren't supposed to and now we have to wait even longer for Mason west to play hockey?
- [55:38]
Corey Pronman
Is that a surprise? I don't really pay attention to high school football and who and who are the contenders at that level?
- [55:46]
Scott Wheeler
From, from what I was reading online, they were major underdogs in the quarterfinal.
- [55:51]
Corey Pronman
You can't believe what the media tells you.
- [55:56]
Max Bultman
All right, Scott Hawk Hockey11 wants to know your thoughts on James Hagen start to the year and would Jake o' Brien go ahead of him in the minds of the league?
- [56:06]
Scott Wheeler
I don't know about that second part. James's start to the year is complicated. I had someone sent me a text unprompted last week saying, you want to watch some tough hockey, watch Boston College play. Right now they are going through it. Teddy Stiga has not been very good for them despite the fact that Hagen's numbers haven't popped. And he's not going to be in the Hobie Baker conversation unless he takes off. Like maybe we would have expected that he could be on his talent. He's still their leading scorer. He's still their best player. And on the flip side, Jake o' Brien has been very good, but Jake o' Brien is not playing on a team that struggles. Jake o' Brien is playing on a team that toys with its opposition on most nights and has yet still as we record again, yet to lose in regulation in the ohl. I had members of their staff telling me that they're hoping that that loss is around the corner so that the boys can kind of get off their high horses a little bit here. But Jake's been having a lot of fun. Like a lot of fun. Like two points per game fun in the ohl. I still don't, I'd have to survey people. I would guess that people still would favor James Hagens, but it's probably pretty close. Jake o' Brien still has a lot of things he needs to work on as well in his game if he's sort of going to reach his potential in the NHL. But we're, we're going to see James Hagens playing 1C for USA here shortly and Jake O' Brien still might not be on Team Canada. So I think we're they're still at different stages. It's, it's a tricky side by side comparison for me. I, I personally would lean would still.
- [57:34]
Corey Pronman
Lean James Higgins at Leno Bryan but what's interesting about Hagan's year this year is what I've watched him my biggest criticism of him last year was his compete and his willingness to get inside. I've had no issue with that this season at all. Like I when I watched the games against Denver, I thought he was working. I thought he was attacking the net. He was winning puck battles. There's just been, the offense has just dried up like the, the, and it might just be because he has nobody to play with. We'll see how that changes when he goes to Team USA at the World Juniors. Like, I think the thing, it's kind of funny. It's just he struggled, but not for the reasons I would have expected him to.
- [58:10]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I, I do think it is situational. You know, it's situational bc, you know, they didn't, they didn't reload to the level. A lot of these other teams and in these games are getting outmatched and it's, it is. Yeah, like, like, like Scott said, they're going through it.
- [58:26]
Corey Pronman
Well, you can only imagine how they would look like if they had Carbono there. Right.
- [58:29]
Chris Peters
Right. Yeah. You throw in Justin Carmineau. You throw it like, you know, I, I know they were, they were hot on the trail of a number of the CHL players that went, went to college. But yeah, not Carbono. It sounded like was close on that one, and then it didn't happen.
- [58:43]
Scott Wheeler
So you can also, you can also imagine the fun James Hagens would have playing with Adam Banach and Merrick Vaneker in the ohl.
- [58:50]
Chris Peters
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Cause that, that Branford team, if you haven't watched them and you should be watching them on flow hockey there they are unbelievable. It is not fair, and that probably should not be allowed. It's just not fair. And to your point. Yes. They don't want to talk about, I wrote a story about how they're a wagon and the team just, we, you know, they're like, nope, we don't want, we don't want to talk about that. We want to talk about that. So they are a wagon, though.
- [59:16]
Max Bultman
All right, last one is to you, Chris. How does this is from rocks, viz. How does Tynan Lawrence's ceiling compared to other top centers drafted in the last two or three years?
- [59:26]
Chris Peters
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, it would have been nice to see Tynan play a bit more this year, to have a little bit more. But I mean, I, I've been high on the player for a while now. You know, I, I, I think as we look at kind of some of these guys, you know, he's, you look at the top centers drafted, obviously it's not quite, he's, he's not celebrating. He's not going into that, that kind of discussion. But, you know, I, I, I think that he's got that, you know, probably outside Chance at a number one center, more like a number two center at the NHL level in terms of overall upside. I mean, I don't know if I, there's, there's certain players that I would necessarily compare them to in the last couple of drafts. I think that he's pretty well rounded. I think that he's, you know, a strong scorer. He's going to play, play really well, you know, with, with other players. He makes the guys around him better and he has good work ethic. So, you know, it's been, it's, it's a little tough. I want to see kind of see where he's at. You know, we haven't gotten to see what the product of last offseason was in terms of him building strength and other things like that. So as he gets a little bit more into it, I mean, I think that the interesting thing is, is we have this discussion about guys like McKenna and Verhoff and others, you know, and maybe we don't mention Tynan Lawrence probably because he's been injured, but I do think, you know, a strong second half, you know, good showings at various, you know, high level events and, and you know, maybe winning another championship, you know, we could potentially have that discussion about him being a true challenger would be really very interesting to see. But yeah, I mean, I think that I'm personally excited to see him kind of get some consistency here so we can figure that about, figure out a little bit where he's at next.
- [61:10]
Corey Pronman
I think for me he'd be like, kind of in the close to like where like guys like Cooley and Wright were going into their drafts, like that range of prospect.
- [61:17]
Chris Peters
Yeah. Which would be outstanding for him. I mean, you know, and I think that that's. Yeah, I think. Right. Probably. Yeah. In that, in that range. And yeah, the, the injury, the injury issue too. Like it didn't sound like it was going to be a big deal, then it kind of became a big deal and then he got, came back and then got hurt again or at least wasn't quite. Maybe came back a little too early and now, you know, it sounds like things are trending in the right direction for him though. And, and I do think he's very much in this, this conversation just because of, of, of the quality center that he is and the scarcity, scarcity of.
- [61:46]
Corey Pronman
The position this year, although it's becoming less scarce. Like, like Mahoutra looks really good. Savanto's look really good. Bjorks look very good. Not saying it's a position of strength, but it's less scarce than I thought it was.
- [61:58]
Scott Wheeler
That's true.
- [61:59]
Chris Peters
Good point. Yep. Yep. Some really good players in there.
- [62:01]
Max Bultman
All right, well, let's wrap there. That is going to do it for us. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect series. You can of course catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast called Up Up. We'll talk to you next week.
- [62:18]
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