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- [00:01]
Ben Green
Hi, this is Ben Green from the Athletic fc. The podcast you're about to listen to is brought to you by Hotels.com as a Hotels.com member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So the next time you're planning a work trip or a getaway, make sure to book it at hotels.com and start earning rewards. Hotels.com, it's all in the name.
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- [01:00]
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- [01:50]
Chris Peters
This is the athletic hockey show prospect.
- [02:05]
Max Boltman
Hey everybody. Max Boltman here alongside the Athletics, Corey Promen and Scott Wheeler and Flo Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect series. Ton to get to today, Scott and Corey had a new two round mock out center class deep dive we got coming on tap today. World Championship updates, Memorial cup preview. But I want to start Corey with an article that you had come out on Thursday breaking down Gavin McKenna versus Ivar Stenberg. And the way I want to do this is I really want to kind of have each of us kind of make the case on on one side of this debate. It's a really interesting one at the top. I mean I know McKenna is the bigger name, Chris, but Ivar Stenberg has had as good a draft eligible season as you could hope for from a
- [02:45]
Chris Peters
young winger yeah, no question about it. I mean, I think that the, the interesting thing about Stenberg is how much of an argument he's, he's created with, with his play this season. And you know, as, as, as many points as Gavin McKenna had in college this year. You look at Stenberg's season in the SHL and it, you know, from a points per game perspective, the second best ever season for a draft eligible player, from a raw points perspective perspective, the third best. And he's trailing the Sadie and they had each other, which is like a cheat code. So Stenberg, there's a lot of different reasons why there can be an argument made for Stenberg versus Gavin McKenna. And I think it's not just that, you know, that competition against the professionals and the way that he showed out he had a great world juniors as well, which I think most, most people saw and would, would argue, you know, on Stenberg's behalf because of that. But I think for me it comes down to style of play between the two players. I think that's the, Stenberg has the opportunity to play more on the interior because he goes to the interior a little bit more for a wing. I think that he makes a lot of plays competitively in terms of puck pursuit and doing things he needs to do to get the puck back. So I think that there's a lot of things that, that he brings to the table. I think there's a bit more tenacity to him, you know, and, and that's not to say that McKenna isn't tenacious enough, but I just think that Stenberg overall has a little bit more jam in his game. And then on top of that, you know, he's not giving away a ton of skill. I think he's very skilled. He's got the opportunity to make a lot of plays, scores goals, really like the player overall. I think he just brings a lot to the table. So it's, it's, I think it's an argument, you know, I, I, I wouldn't necessarily, you know, 100% say Stenberg over McKenna, but I think that there's a lot of the, the reasons that I mentioned are among the reasons that there's an actual argument to be had.
- [04:38]
Scott Wheeler
I think you can say that McKenna is not tenacious enough.
- [04:42]
Chris Peters
Thank you, Scott. I, I, you know, that's good. Yes, let's say that.
- [04:46]
Max Boltman
All right, Pretend you didn't hear who that one was coming from and we'll go to Scott. Now, Scott, I want you to make the case for Gavin McKenna as the best Wig.
- [04:53]
Scott Wheeler
In this class, the case for Gavin McKenna has always been about the skill uptick. Like I, I think you just look across the board, the playmaking, the iq, the finesse on the puck, the feel in the offensive zone. Stenberg gets high those areas. There are some special traits in those areas for Gavin McKenna. And if you're picking first overall, you want a player who has a special quality and ability to break open a game and ability to pull you out of your seat. And nobody in this draft does that more frequently than McKenna. In fact, I don't think there are many players in this draft that actually do that very often at all. Gavin has that. Gavin has, even if it comes and goes, when it comes, when he, when he sees a play open up, when there's a play to be made, when there's an opportunity to create a scoring chance in the offensive zone and the puck is in his hands. If you're picking a player in this draft that you want to have the puck in their hands in the offensive zone, it's Gavin. So I think that's. That has always been the case for Gavin. Is that just from a pure skill, iq, offensive sense level, it's just a. I think he's in a slightly different tier than Ivar and I think Ivar is in a very high tier in all of those areas.
- [06:07]
Max Boltman
So basically what that comes down to, to me as I hear that Corey is like, this is a choose your flavor situation. Do you want the guy who's kind of conducting from the outside, he's, he's manipulating plays and he's going to find that seam, or do you want a little bit more of the interior driver who maybe gives up a little bit of the dynamic element? Not all of it, to Chris's point. How do you kind of parse two players like this where both high end talents who do it a little different?
- [06:31]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think that's a great point. And the two of them, I can think, outline a lot of the arguments that I made in the article and, and to kind of, you know, basically simplify it is, you know, McKenna has been the offense guy is, you know, historic production wherever he goes, you know, the off the charts skill and offense and Stenberg just a little bit more competitive, translatable style of play. I think sometimes in these debates we can be, you know, people want absolutes. And I think that the debate may stray a little bit from reality. You know, Stenberg doesn't have the level of offense that McKenna has as a little skill that McKenna has. But as Scott Said he does have offense. Like he is high, high end skill even if it isn't the special game breaking caliber of McKenna. And even though Stenberg is a more competitive player than McKenna and obviously played very well against men, even now the world championships, he's showing you he can win battles against men. I think McKenna's compete level, you know, are there. I definitely think he's a little perimeter and he's inconsistent. I don't think like he's soft though. Like this is not a not competitive play player. This is a guy who's played up age levels for years, plays big minutes wherever he goes. Like he's not not competitive. It's just I think usually when you pick one overall you'd like that trait to be an asset. It's not an asset for this player. Especially when you're 511. That is a concern. The way I would kind of parse this is, you know, I think there's a path for Gavin McKenna to score 100 points in the NHL. A realistic path. Not saying he's going to, but I think like he has a path to get to that point where he could be 100 point scorer in the NHL, you know, a true star if things go well in his development. I've watched a lot of Ivar Stenberg over the last few years. I've never come away from a game of his being like holy hell, this guy's a game breaker. He's going to get, he could score 100 points in the NHL. I don't see that not saying it can't happen. It's been wrong before on plenty of players. Oh there's, you know, I just have a harder time seeing him get to that level. So that to me would be one of the tiebreakers there that be kind of in Gavin's favor is I just think the skill differential there for me is larger than the compete differential is that I would make me lean that way. But if you, I could see somebody who really didn't like the way McKenna competed at times this season say it goes the other way. It's, it's tough though because you know, we've used the martyr comparison. Obviously that's, you know, in the, in light of the last few weeks, I think some people would gladly take that.
- [09:19]
Max Boltman
It's becoming more and more flattering by the day right now.
- [09:24]
Corey Pronman
But if you say the Panarin comparison, you know, he just got acquired for Liam Greetry, you know, a few, A few, a few months ago. So it's, it really, you know, the Marner comparison is interesting because I don't think it's apt. It's just funny because it's Toronto. So we say it because Marner is a better off puck player. This is a guy who's, you know, a very two way player and McKenna at the same age, I would argue is more skilled than Marner was. Marner was an exceptional junior player, elite scorer, but this guy's skill is like a level above that, you know. You know, it's so it's tough. Like I, I really sympathize with some of the people who have to make these decisions because these are not simple decisions. We know what the popular decision is and we know what the likely decision is going to be. But there are some tensions here and it's. I think there's going to be strong opinions in the rooms in Toronto and San Jose, in Vancouver about which way to go with this.
- [10:25]
Max Boltman
What's interesting here, Scott, is I feel like we've had, we've talked about the debate about, you know, the winger and the positional premium. I feel like we've only really ever had that about McKenna. Like, I, I don't think we've really talked about Stenberg at number one, really, at all. I mean, may maybe midseason, around mid season, right out, right around the world, juniors, but it's really kind of been. If it's one, we're talking about McKenna and then we, when we get past one or get past two, then you kind of are debating the two wingers against each other. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, why is it that we kind of, kind of feels like we're talking about only if it's going to be a winger at one, it's going to be McKenna and otherwise there's a debate. Do you get what I'm saying?
- [11:01]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, I think part of that is just because McKenna has dominated the coverage in this draft class. Like McKenna is the name. McKenna is central to every conversation. Uh, but I think it, it's, it is an interesting conversation because it's a conversation that isn't just happening at one, that if inevitably, if Gavin McKenna goes number one, it's a conversation that is going to continue to happen at 2, and potentially 3 in terms of Ivar Stenberg and that piece of the puzzle. And I think part of the reason we have, we haven't maybe had that conversation as much with Stenberg is because there's not as much to nitpick, like there aren't as many winger flaws inherently in, in stenberg's game. In McKenna's game, it's evident. Like, you watch him and there are. There are warts, there are issues, there are hiccups, there are. There were bad games this year. Stenberg did cool off a little bit in the second half himself in the SHL as well, but now he's finishing strong at.
- [11:56]
Chris Peters
At.
- [11:56]
Scott Wheeler
At Men's Worlds. And there's just a. A consistent effort level, a consistent heaviness on pucks to Stenberg that we don't see in McKenna. And I think as a result, that the conversation has just gravitated so much around Gavin. But. But it's. No, you're. You're absolutely. In terms of the way that this is going to take place, it's. The position conversation isn't exclusively a Gavin McKenna conversation. It's going to be happening until both. Until both of those players are picked.
- [12:23]
Corey Pronman
What's everybody's NHL comp for Stenberg? Mine has been Gensel.
- [12:28]
Max Boltman
I really like that one. I mean, I see a lot of that when I watch play. I don't think he's that different from Lucas Raymond, but I think that Gensel kind of the profile of getting to the slot and getting the goal playing down low really fits him.
- [12:40]
Scott Wheeler
He uses Stutzla, but he doesn't have the skating that Tim has or had. So I. I've never really seen that. When I did my feature on him and I asked a bunch of people in. In the s. In and around the SHL that same question, one of the names that I heard that I didn't hate was Zetterberg. I'm not sure whether he's ever going to have the defensive sort of value that Zetterberg provided, but in terms of the size, the shape, the strength over his stick, the skill level getting to the interior a little bit more, I could see Zetterberg maybe a little, but those. Those were the names that came up in my conversation. Zetterberg was mentioned like three or four times. I don't know whether that's just been a talking point amongst Swedish media or Swedish SHL coaches or that kind of a thing, but Zetterberg was the name that I heard.
- [13:29]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, Chris.
- [13:30]
Chris Peters
I definitely felt like the. I like the Raymond comparison, you know, and I think that there's been a lot, a lot there. I think, you know, the Ivar is probably even a little bit harder than Raymond was at that. At that same age, but not. Not significantly so.
- [13:48]
Scott Wheeler
But, yeah, I like Ivar a little bit more as a prospect than I did Lucas.
- [13:52]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think he's Maybe he's a little more quick, twitch with the feet. But I guess I asked that question because. Just use all those names. If you said Gensel, Raymond or Zetterberg, and I told you you were guaranteed to walk away at first overall, guaranteed to get that player, how do you feel?
- [14:12]
Max Boltman
Perfectly good. Those are really good players.
- [14:15]
Corey Pronman
Those are really good players. But is this like, you feel like we got the franchise building block here, like we're all set, or you're feeling like on Zetterberg.
- [14:24]
Max Boltman
It would be on Zetterberg, yes. He's also center.
- [14:28]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [14:29]
Chris Peters
I, I mean, it just comes back to my. My trade, my trademarked line. There's no number one this year. So.
- [14:36]
Corey Pronman
No, I
- [14:39]
Chris Peters
feel like I've said it a few times.
- [14:40]
Corey Pronman
I guess I make that point because, like, if you told me you were going to get Raymond or not, guaranteed, I say good chance, Raymond, Good chance you're gonna get Raymond or Genzel, remove Zetterberg for a second, I feel like I'm excited. But if you told me I had a good chance, I'm saying we do have a good chance. Let's say I had a good chance to get Patrick Kane or Kucherov. I think now you're excited, right? Like, now you're like, okay, like this. This is a ball player we can work with. And I think that the debate on McKenna is what is the probability that's actually going to happen? Is that actually the projection or there, there's some distinction between him and Kane or distinction between him and Kucherov that will prevent that from happening. But I, I can see how you could talk yourself into McKenna at one point. I have a harder time talking myself into Stenberg at 1. That's kind of where I'm going with this. Well, I don't. I feel like when teams get into their meeting, there will be somebody they will like more than Stenberg because he's a 511 wing and because he's not like, pull you out of your seats dynamic. I feel like there will be teams that will come out of the meeting. More teams will come out of the meeting with McKenna1, because some of them will buy it that he's caned. Not saying that he is going to be Kane, but there will be more teams that will buy that than they will buy that. Stenberg has like the 90 plus point potential.
- [15:56]
Scott Wheeler
Just Devil's advocate here. I think it's also easier to talk yourself out of Gavin. It's probably easier to talk yourself into him, but I think it's also easier to talk yourself out of him because of the flaws and because there are just going to be scouts in every room that watched him play a few times this year and didn't like what they saw.
- [16:14]
Max Boltman
I do think, though, that that's kind of a good answer to what I was trying to get at with Scott, though, Corey, is because like you, you said if you guarantee that it's gentle Raymond Zetterberg, but you can't guarantee it. So if you're, if you're gonna be in that situation at one, you obviously really want the highest upside player, but you're also, and you're weighing everything against, like, there's a chance that, you know, we might view Stenberg as maybe like a, a safer pick than McKenna, but if the upside's lower, it's a narrower band. And at one, I think you, you know, you certainly don't want to have someone who doesn't live up to the expectation. But I get what you're saying. You're trying to chase the, the best possible outcome at one. You gotta, you gotta be a little bit of an optimist when you're picking at one, right?
- [16:51]
Corey Pronman
I mean, Scott poo pooed when I brought up Jakopov the other week, but I mean, no, that's in the cards. I think Lafrenieres in the cards. You have to at least talk about those outcomes, too. Like, you look at, like Lafreniere scoring track record in the queue compared to McKenna's. It's not like that far away of a track record. There's, there's some, there's some overlap there. It's. I think those are, these are all things you. I don't think McKenna is any guarantee. I just was making the point that I can see how somebody would conclude that he's the best player. I have a harder time with this class with these good defensive in a. Malhotra, seeing everybody get to the end of their process and conclude that Stenberg is the best player, that's just more the point I was trying to make. That's saying that's how I would have it ordered.
- [17:38]
Max Boltman
No, it's a good answer to the question. You mentioned Malhotra there. Let's take a quick break right now. We're going to come back, we're going to go deep on the center class this year because it is. It's probably a deeper, more interesting class than we've given the airtime to so far on the show.
- [17:50]
Chris Peters
Be right back.
- [17:53]
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- [19:39]
Ben Green
Hi, this is Ben Green from the Athletic fc. The podcast you're about to listen to is brought to you by Hotels.com as a Hotels.com member, you save up to 20% on hundreds of thousands of hotels and earn rewards on every single stay. Which means the trips you're taking now help pay for the ones you're already dreaming about. And unlike some other places, there are no blackout dates. So when you want to travel, your rewards are ready to go. So the next time you're planning a work trip or a getaway, make sure to book it at hotels.com and start earning rewards. Hotels.com, it's all in the name.
- [20:14]
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- [20:47]
Max Boltman
All right, we are back, and I want to get into the center class now here, Corey. And let's start with the guy you mentioned right before we went to the break, Caleb Malhotra. He's kind of become the consensus top center in the class. We know that that usually does not last long on draft day. Scott's got him fourth, you've got him sixth. So it's obviously a tight cluster at the top. But when you're talking about a guy who's four and six and yet we're. We're kind of consistently talking about him in the top three, I wonder, like, how high could this guy go?
- [21:15]
Corey Pronman
I feel like when I talk to teams, the conversation, they feel like Toronto has to at least have that conversation with him. A1. I feel it's a little rich for me, but the issue for me with Malhotra getting him all the way up there, and I thought he looked tremendous the second half of the year. I thought he looked tremendous when all the players in Brantford left for the world junior and he went on that crazy run in around, like, January. Great play off there. But there was a lot of times where I watched Malhotra on Branford and I thought he was the third or fourth best player on his team. You know, there were. You think you could argue that Yurichek, Jake o', Brien, Adam Banack, there were, you know, they were. Those were massive contributors on that team as well. Like, you know, this is a guy didn't have, you know, he'd have a monster year in the ohl. He didn't have a monster year in the BCHL the year before that. The elite scoring track record basically just lasts three weeks, essentially. And I would have a hard time getting him over McKenna, who's done it for his whole life. Who's that? Over Stenberg, who has an elite scoring record for years now. He's three inches bigger. He's a full year younger. He's a center. He's two way. There's a lot that goes right for him. I have a hard time getting in there. I think somebody will get him there, though. I think just from my conversations, I think a lot of people, I view him as a potential two. I think a lot of people in the league view as a 2. But there's enough people who think he has at least a chance to be a one. And if you buy that there's that chance there. Then he's going real early. Like that's just go, yeah, go ahead.
- [22:50]
Max Boltman
When you say like a two with a chance to be a one, let's like give people some concept. Like I know you've used veneers on him before, but I think like he sure would kind of fit that bill. He sure is a 2 on New Jersey, but could be someone's 1 and, and the right year can absolutely be a 1.
- [23:04]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. I think when I've watched Malhotra's best games, I viewed him as potentially he sure. I would not say I've seen that player consistently enough though to say that that's my projection.
- [23:18]
Max Boltman
So more of an upside than. Than a true comp.
- [23:21]
Corey Pronman
I said it's tough because people will argue he's so skinny and he's developing and look at these. A late bloomer is. It's the Beckett Seneca trajectory and the next, you know, he's just going to take off from here and I get it and it could happen but like to pass on some of those guys who've been doing it for years and it would. It's a, it's a big bet for me. But I think it's going to happen because he's the center, because he's so young, because he looked so good towards the end of the year. And you know, you look at the history of the draft and you look at just the league in general, getting a first line center outside of the draft is nearly impossible. And if someone thinks he has at least a decent chance to become that, he's going to go among the first few picks.
- [24:07]
Scott Wheeler
To Cory's point too, there just haven't been those touch as many of those touchstones. He had the OHL playoffs. He was the best player I thought at the CHL USA Prospects Challenge in November. He was really, really consistently good all year. Started on a third on a third line there in Brantford because of how deep they were. They quickly realized he was on PP1 from day one. But they quickly realized through training camp in the early part of the season that this K couldn't be their third line center. And then once he was elevated, it just. He was unbelievable. But to Corey's point like that he, he didn't play because of the bchl. He didn't play at the Hoeno last summer like he. He. There just weren't. There isn't that body of work that, that those other players have, including some of the D like, including some of the D who've had Two tremendous, tremendous years of, of junior hockey. Right. So that part of it I think is, is the challenge hurdle that Caleb has to clear here. I think the benefit that Caleb has is that you talk to anybody who's watched him play this year and you won't find a single scout or a single person around the OHL who doesn't love the player, the kid. You hear, you hear the word captain tossed around. Like there's, there's just elements to, to Caleb above and beyond how good he was this year. And he was very, very, very good this year. But it's just sort of the complete package with Caleb. And so then it, it boils down to how much you value those things, how much you value the two way details, who he is off the ice, the development Runway versus the kids who've. Who've shown it to you.
- [25:45]
Corey Pronman
Fun question for you, Max, because we've used, let's say we put the Raymond comparison for Stenberg just for you as an example. If Seattle offered veneers for Raymond, who says no?
- [25:59]
Max Boltman
I think Detroit says no.
- [26:01]
Scott Wheeler
Detroit.
- [26:02]
Corey Pronman
Is it, is it an easy no, though?
- [26:04]
Max Boltman
I think so. I mean Raymond, I mean he wasn't their leading scorer this past year, but he's a guy that you kind of expect to be your leading scorer. The reason that in theory, the reason Seattle is trait is would look to trade veneers is because they need that type of guy. You know, they have, you know, plethora of centers. I get that, but I think it's an easy enough no.
- [26:22]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I don't think it'd be. I think I agree with you. I think Detroit says no. I think. I feel like they'd have to think about it though. I think it's also like I get they have Casper Danielson, they have a lot of these guys kind of thing. But I just mean the player type is it's still an 18 minute a night centerman. Like that's. I feel like you.
- [26:40]
Scott Wheeler
The argument isn't there though.
- [26:42]
Corey Pronman
No, it isn't. That's, of course that's the argument is. But I think that's the, that's the stress points there is. Can you find veneers easier on the open market or can you find Raymond easier on the open market?
- [26:53]
Max Boltman
They're both hard to find. I mean the one that I keep coming back to on, on Malhotra is we, we had I think a very similar conversation last year about another Caleb, Caleb Denoyer. Now to Chris's point about, you know, is there, is there really a number one this year these are very different draft classes. Last year there was Matthew Schaefer and there was two other guys you could plausibly buy as centers in front of Caleb Denoyer and that's why he goes 4. But if he's close to Caleb Denouye Scott and I'd love to get your opinion on who you like better at the same stage. I mean that is an argument in, in a kind of shallower draft class. Maybe not it's. It's a longer top tier probably than last year, but the, the top end isn't the same. Like I think. I think that's probably the argument to get this guy into the top three.
- [27:36]
Scott Wheeler
There are a lot of similar. And we've talked about it a little bit on the show. There are a lot of similarities between the two in terms of their production, their production in the playoffs, their size, their position, the way people talked about the details and the captain pieces of the puzzle and the intangibles. I do think when you watch the two players that Caleb has, he's a better skater and I think he made a more skill point Caleb or Maltra. I. I do think m. I do think Malhotra is the better skater and made more plays of a lit. A higher quantity of plays. Not by a lot, but a few more sort of high, high end plays this year than, than Denoier did.
- [28:22]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I would probably rate them ahead of Dana Danou a. Right now. And the other thing, there's another element that I wanted to talk about because you know, Corey said if you're Toronto and you at least have to have the conversation. Let's talk about this from. When we talk about the character, the other things, intangibles, the, the opportunity that you have with a player of that nature. Is he as exciting? He is not as exciting as McKenna. I can tell you that pretty quickly. I don't think he's as exciting as Stenberg, to be completely honest. I do think that there's an argument to be had that he may be a best, a best fit. You think about the opportunity to be within, you know, the opportunity in the market, you know that, that the pressure that would come with being the number one overall pick of the Toronto Maple Leafs and you say, you know, I think that's going to have to be part of the, part of the assessment here is, is who has the capability to do that. You've already got your number one center, you know, for the foreseeable future. Assuming that Matthew stays. Where does you know how, how much of A benefit would a player like Malhotra be if you're Toronto? So these are the kind of conversations you, you have to have. I mean, you look at the pressure that Gavin was under all season this year, I think he's practiced in terms of the pressure of different things. The question is, is, you know, Caleb with the NHL bloodlines, Mel Hocher, that is, you know, with the NHL bloodlines and the different things that he has kind of come from, how he would handle that kind of situation. I think it's difficult to know, but I think that has to be part of the calculus of, of, of the decision making. And what do we, what do, what ultimately are we doing with this pick? And you know, how, you know, getting it right on top of that, the premium position possibility. And if you believe that there's a chance that he could be your number one in the future, does that bring more value to you than having a number one, you know, a top line winger? That'll be, you know, the question they'll have to ask themselves.
- [30:13]
Corey Pronman
And I do know there have been some evaluators have gotten to the end of the process here and have at least had him ahead of Stenberg and some have had him ahead of McKenna for reasons that we've discussed at length.
- [30:23]
Chris Peters
Yep.
- [30:24]
Max Boltman
So behind Mel Hojer in the center class, Corey, are two guys that I think we can kind of talk about together. Viggo Bjork and Tynan Lawrence. At one point you had Tynen Lawrence as the number one player in this class. Things changed. It's an evolving list. I don't think you have them there now. I don't remember who you have higher on your most recent list between him and Bjork, but it feels like they're, they're kind of of a class together, right?
- [30:46]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I have Bjork ahead. I think both of them kind of go 6 to 12, 6 to 13, whatever. Like they're both kind of going to go, there's that top group of wingers, Malhotra, you know, and then I think once those guys go and maybe a couple of the D, then you start talking about them because I think they're the next group. Not only the next centers, but they're the next group of forwards too. I don't think there's a consistent. A winger that gets everybody super, super excited. Belches kind of does. Heming kind of does. But I feel like Bjork's the way he's ended the season. You said they're sim, they're close, but they've Their season's gone very differently. Lawrence had a really disaster of a season. Bjork's had a fantastic season and it's been playing very well. Now the men's World Championships, you know, I kind of view, you know, Bjork as that. You know, if you're drafting him that high, you. I think you will. You would draw a line between him and like Logan Stankovin and say, I think he could be. He could be that kind of player. Frank Nazar is another name that's come to mind for me with Bjork. And, you know, Frank went 13. Marco Ross, he went nine. So that's kind of the range you're thinking of. I think in this draft where there isn't a ton of centers, it could. Even though he's 5, 9, I think he's shown against men that there is a strong chance he can play center for sure at the higher level. So I think he stays in that top 10 conversation. And despite his. His lackluster second half, there's still a lot of people in the league I talk to. Not a lot, not everyone. There's some people who have dropped Lawrence significantly, but there's still a lot of people I talked to who have him the top 10 conversation just because he's one of, if not the best pure skater in the draft. He's a 61 center. He still has a. The body of work is still, you know, less impressive than we thought it was going to be, but it's still a decent, you know, it's still a pretty good body of work. So I still think these are still going to be among the very first forwards who are going to go in
- [32:35]
Max Boltman
this draft class, wouldn't you say?
- [32:37]
Chris Peters
I think one of the biggest separating factors, because obviously there's a size difference. There's all those things. But wouldn't you say that the hockey sense is. Is a defining separation between the two?
- [32:46]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I mean, I mean, Bjork has way more offense way make. Make. Makes more. More plays. You know, Lawrence is more. Just more athletic. Like the skating is way better.
- [32:55]
Chris Peters
The.
- [32:56]
Corey Pronman
The size, obviously, I think. And you know, Bjork is more competitive. I mean, they're just wave. There is way different players.
- [33:04]
Chris Peters
Yeah, they're not. Yeah, that's. That's the thing is they are very different. There's really not a lot of similarities between the two. But.
- [33:10]
Scott Wheeler
And then.
- [33:10]
Chris Peters
But I just think that every time I watch Viggo Bjork play, I was like, oh, this guy just knows how to play hockey. He just knows how to Play hockey. There's nothing like he has some of the best hockey sense for me in this entire draft. I think that his, his ability to figure out how he needs to play in every situation is fascinating. What really sold me on VGO ahead of Tynan is the playoffs that he played. You know, Jurgardens was using him in pretty high leverage situations.
- [33:38]
Scott Wheeler
Checking first lines.
- [33:40]
Chris Peters
Yes. I mean he was matching up and now he goes to the world championship. He's the youngest scorer in the history of Sweden's national team. Goal scorer in the history of Sweden's national team. And they're putting him in those positions to succeed. They're leaning on him and they have NHL players. I mean it's, it's. It's incredible to watch how much respect he has among his peers, among the coaches that have coached him. It is. I mean he's just kind of a Swiss army knife player that can do a lot of things just in a, in a pretty small package. So he's one of those mini knives, I suppose. But either way those are pretty still you usable.
- [34:18]
Scott Wheeler
Despite the size difference, he's also way stronger over pucks than like it was a major issue for Tynan at the college level and it has not been an issue for VGO at the professional level. Like he's, he is a. And it. That's one of the things all of his teammates talk about is just like this kid is strong.
- [34:38]
Corey Pronman
You know, I think we all right now have VGO ahead of Lawrence, but I think when it comes time down to it, I think it's a 50, 50 who's going to go first. Because I think there's going to be a lot of teams that are going to struggle with the idea of taking a 5, 9 center in the top 10 who's not an elite skater. I think they're going to say like, they're going to wonder like he's awesome now. Is it going to be awesome in five years? Despite. Think about Bjork is he's so likable the way he plays because he's so hard working. He brings. He's very consistent. He plays both ways. I do think there's. If I was to make a minor criticism is despite his great hockey sense, I don't know if his puck play is like prolific. I think if you draft a smaller four like that at a super high point in the draft, you're trying, you're thinking there's a path for him to get to 80, 90 points. I know. I never seen a game of his where I've bought that as his offensive ceiling. Not saying he can't get there, but I think those are going to be the, the minor debates. I still think everyone's going to have this guy rated very highly. Like he's going very early in this draft. It's just a matter of what the slot actually is.
- [35:50]
Scott Wheeler
Tynan's not getting like. Have you ever felt that Tynan could get to 80, 90 points?
- [35:54]
Corey Pronman
No, no. But I think that's going to be the conversation is if you like. I think people would say Lawrence is. If he's not a two, he's a three. I feel like with Bjork is they're gonna. The argument whether right or wrong is gonna be like, we're not playing this guy in our bottom six. That's gonna be the conversation. Something's right.
- [36:09]
Chris Peters
Like if you look at, and if you look at the Stank Coven argument, like, I would say that Logan has a more proven score, had a more proven scoring track record as a younger player as well.
- [36:20]
Corey Pronman
Maybe Bjork's underscoring was really good.
- [36:22]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.
- [36:24]
Chris Peters
Like that was, it was.
- [36:25]
Scott Wheeler
And if he were playing, it was his. Like if he were playing in, in the WHL this year, Stan Coven went
- [36:31]
Corey Pronman
in the mid second round too.
- [36:33]
Chris Peters
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But now that we see that should not have happened as some, perhaps even on this podcast, I think probably all
- [36:40]
Max Boltman
three of us had said we.
- [36:42]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, we. I, I love Stankov and anybody here have him tops eight top ten?
- [36:47]
Chris Peters
No.
- [36:47]
Scott Wheeler
No.
- [36:48]
Corey Pronman
Okay.
- [36:49]
Scott Wheeler
I had him in the first round.
- [36:50]
Chris Peters
Yeah, we.
- [36:51]
Corey Pronman
I think we all did that. That's, that's my point is there's, there's a little bit different of a risk assessment there, for sure.
- [36:57]
Scott Wheeler
I think the fact that he's done it against men and what he did at the world juniors this year distinguishes him from Stankhoven with either of these two players. Corey.
- [37:08]
Max Boltman
I mean, we talked about it with McKenna. You can kind of talk yourself up and, and feel like, okay, this guy should, you know, should be. Could be Kudrow, could be this. How high can you get yourself on. On Bjork? If you, if you like, could you talk yourself into him being a first line center?
- [37:19]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I feel like it's frustrating. I'm gonna say a name and it's frustrating because I feel like we use this one every year.
- [37:27]
Scott Wheeler
Every year.
- [37:29]
Corey Pronman
Brading Point. Yeah. And I feel like, you know, hey,
- [37:33]
Chris Peters
you know, there's always one.
- [37:35]
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- [37:35]
Corey Pronman
I mean, that's, and, but that's the risk. Right. That's why people are gonna be like, people are gonna, it's gonna come up in NHL meetings and people are gonna be like, I thought I've heard this one before. Yeah, you know, I heard it last year. I heard the year before that. I heard the year before that. Still waiting on them. Well, tough through.
- [37:51]
Max Boltman
The reason that we use Braden Point so much, the reason that we use Vincent Trocheck so much is because there's only so many guys of this profile at that size and we don't have a wide menu to choose from. And so on one hand that tells you like, yep, that's why you're hearing it. On the other hand it's, it's maybe a little bit of a caution flag of like if everyone's Braden Point on their projection, but they all end up being Frank Nzer, Logan Stankeven. Great players, but not Braden Point. You know, that's worth kind of filing away, I think also Braden Point also
- [38:20]
Scott Wheeler
wasn't a top 10 pick.
- [38:22]
Discover Ad Host
Yeah.
- [38:22]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. But I guess like, but he obviously he's a first line center, a Stanley cup winner. Like it's.
- [38:28]
Scott Wheeler
Yep.
- [38:29]
Chris Peters
Heck are you point with Frank Nazar
- [38:31]
Corey Pronman
with all the good things Bjork has done. I don't think, I think if you told like hockey people that's the projection, they wouldn't like think that's unreasonable. Like, I mean like Bjork has done almost everything you could have asked for him this year other than like produce what Stenberg did essentially in the SHL this year.
- [38:48]
Max Boltman
Yeah, I mean even like, like Zach Benson is a winger. If you told me Zach Benson was going to play center, I think it would look a lot like Viggo Bjork. And that's a, like we're seeing Benson be one of the better players in the playoffs right now. We're seeing Stankeven be one of the better players in the playoffs right now. These are always the hangups. Jackson size, Jackson Blake. Right. And I think Bjork's better than Jackson Blake. So it's, it's, you know, that's to me like I, I can talk myself into Bjork as a one. I don't know that I mentioned Lawrence.
- [39:13]
Corey Pronman
Well, with Benson, with Stankovin, with Seth Jarvis, the. That's a similarity. There is all they all have off the charts compete.
- [39:21]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [39:21]
Corey Pronman
Which is, which is what Bjork has. Which is why I think he's still a really good Candido in the top 10. But I said these, I said these are not substantial criticisms. These are minor criticisms as you try to parse which one of these two you want to take?
- [39:35]
Max Boltman
Is there a gap, Scott, between those two guys? How wide is the gap, I should say between those two guys and let's say Oliver Suvanto and Alexander Command, who I think are kind of the next, the next guys that we expect to go in the top 20 in the center class.
- [39:48]
Scott Wheeler
Well, I, I've grown on Command. I'm a big, big fan of Command. I don't think Command is all that far behind that where I have Lawrence at this point. The Suvanto. I'm, I'm in a completely different place on like I just haven't been able to get to any kind of belief that Suvanto is more than a bottom six center in the league now, but a 6, 3 heavy bottom six center is still a valuable player. But, but it's not a player that you consider taking in the range that we just talked about those two guys. So I do think there's a pretty significant gap there for me between Suvanto and those guys. I think Commands that, that next center for me now, like Morozov was in that conversation at different points. Subanto was in that conversation at different points. Command, the consistency of Command's play this year, how hard he is on pucks, his contact skills, I think there's a real, real player there. I still don't think there's quite enough offense there to, to sort of bridge that gap, but he's in that next tier. Like I, I fully expect that Command goes in the teens at this point and if we're talking about one of those two centers going in the early teens and he goes in the late teens, then there's, there's not actually that much of a gap on draft day.
- [41:02]
Corey Pronman
To get the stiffness between him and Lawrence would just be skating. But otherwise I think like they're the offense, they're definitely close and I think
- [41:11]
Max Boltman
Command's a good skater. Might not be like top of the class good, but he's a good skater.
- [41:15]
Corey Pronman
You're right. Do you think the Lawrence is a premier skater?
- [41:18]
Scott Wheeler
Do you. Who would you guys have as that sort of fourth center?
- [41:23]
Corey Pronman
I have Savanto.
- [41:25]
Max Boltman
I'd be toss up, but I think I'd probably lean to Command with you, Scott.
- [41:29]
Corey Pronman
Oh, fourth center. Sorry, sorry. Yeah, yeah, I would have Command and then. No, sorry, I do have Savanto as the four setter. Sorry, I'm, I'm misremembering things here right now.
- [41:39]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I have them. I have them back to back right now. I have Savanto just ahead.
- [41:44]
Max Boltman
And the thing is that Even though command doesn't have Savanto size like this is still a guy who I think is going to produce on the interior. He's going to be around the net, he's going to dig around the blue paint.
- [41:52]
Corey Pronman
Corey? Yeah, I think you know, really really young player. I think he's a couple of days away from being 27 eligible and I think you still look at he had a really tough second half between his club play and just his okay U18s but the world juniors he had was really really impressive. Good first half there in between his Hlinka and his league of play. The skating is a concern. Like he's not a dynamic player by any means but I still think you look at a six three heavy centerman with, with good offense. I think as he matures physically the offense will come more at the pro level. I think there's just like a. I think by next year I think he will score more and I think he'll reassure some of our concerns. That's my projection. Obviously Scott doesn't agree but I think there's going to be good offense there at the next level. Not great but good to go with his all around play.
- [42:42]
Max Boltman
All right, so that's like the top cluster Scott, but who are the other names to be kind of on the radar for the rest of the first round at the center position?
- [42:50]
Scott Wheeler
Well there's a handful that I just mentioned, Morozov there. He was the one who earliest on in the season had sort of put himself in that conversation. He got off to a great start at Miami. He was their first line center. He was producing. He's another to Corey's point about command in the late birthday. Another sort of really young player in the draft. The youngest player in college hockey this season. Him and Hemming ended up being a couple of days apart once Hemming arrived for the second half, but just a really, really strong first half and then tailed off a little bit. A little bit like Savanto tailed off a little bit in the second half, lost his spot as their first line center kind of became a middle six center for them. The production didn't sort of keep pace but really, really well rounded player and I still think probably goes sort of in the 20s somewhere. The other ones are sort of interesting. Jack Hextall played in Youngstown in the USHL this year and I've spoken a lot with people around the USHL and around Youngstown about him this season and there's a lot of belief in this kid. I don't think that has necessarily shown up in public sphere rankings and that kind of a thing. But between conversations with scouts and conversations around the USHL around Hextall, like people think he's going to be a middle six center in the league and the offense hasn't maybe quite been there to completely sell you on that. Like he doesn't make a ton of points, plays, but again, really strong on pucks, pro details, habits, skates well, has the body. He's not a tall kid, but like really thick, strong kid. And he's just smart and just looks to Chris's earlier point, like just looks like a hockey player. And then there's some, some sort of wild cards in that group. Brooks Rowski is the big one, is 67 center viewed as a winger by some. There are some who don't love sort of the competitiveness in that side of his game. Although he did penalty kill in Oshawa this year going to Michigan State. Interesting profile at that size. He's got some skill like he made some plays this year and you, you sort of immediately start to wonder about some of the big men that have come out of the OHL in, in recent years, like Kieran Walton and some of those guys. But those are, those are kind of the names. And then Maddox Dejeuner is another one who, like Rokowski, is kind of viewed as a winger by a lot of people. Despite the fact that he played some center in Quebec this year and is the natural center and was the first overall pick into the queue as a center. Dejeuner hasn't been, doesn't sort of have that sort of consistent, consistent work ethic. Like that's the one thing that he's very physical, he's very talented, he's got the size. But it, it, it has come and go for him for really, for two years. And he dealt with some concussions and there were some other things at play in his development, but people have wanted to see him be more consistent and it's been a, a common critique of his game. So. May end up as a winger. I think Rogowski may end up as a winger, but Morozov and Hextall are centers all day. Like if they're, if they make it in the NHL, they'll be playing down the middle.
- [45:42]
Max Boltman
Let's take a quick break right there. That's the center class. We're going to come back, we're going to talk about what we've seen so far at Worlds. I imagine Viggo Bjork's name and Ivar Stenberg's name are going to come up again and preview the Memorial Cup. Be right back.
- [45:56]
Ben Green
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Chris Peters
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- [48:04]
Max Boltman
All right, let's bring this home. Talking about some tournaments going on right now. Not the Stanley cup playoffs, but the men's world championships to start with. Chris going on overseas right now and there is some prospect flavor to these world championships because of the young Swedes we've already talked about.
- [48:19]
Chris Peters
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Ivar Stenberg and and Vgo Bjork given us plenty to watch. Sweden has put Them in a position to be contributors to the team, and they have done that already. Four assists so far for Stenberg in the tournament. Two points for vgo, including a goal. The youngest goal scorer ever for Sweden at the Men's Worlds. You know, the, the last time there were two draft eligible players on their team, it was. It was the Sedan Twins. So, you know, this is a really outstanding opportunity and they've given him opportunities on the power play. You know, they've got Bjork in the bumper. They've got Stenberg kind of working the half wall. You know, there's a lot of different things that those guys have done which has been outstanding to watch. I think that Sam Halam, who has gotten lots of criticism for the way that he's coached Sweden over the last couple of tournaments that he's been in, has given these guys a lot of run and they've come in and, and it rewarded them with that opportunity. And like VGO is holding his own. Ivar is more than holding his own. Like, they're both, they're not overwhelmed by the moment or the opportunity, which is only going to help their stock. You know, they're, they're the two guys that, you know, I think everybody's excited to see. But certainly Lafayette has a couple of draft eligibles as well. Both Albert Smiths and Oliver's Merniex both playing. Smits has, you know, been a top four defenseman for, for Latvia the whole time. They have not been very good in this tournament, but he is obviously a key player for them. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's, it's a great last kind of reminder. And we've certainly seen guys over in the past years, Branson E. Gard and Solberg and others, you know, kind of Marco Casper have really raised their stock at this event by what they've done. And I think that we're seeing, at least for the, you know, the top three guys mentioned mix has played a bit of a bit role for Latvia. And then there's also, there's, there's even Leon Kolarik with Austria and you know, so there's a lot of draft eligible talent to watch here.
- [50:11]
Max Boltman
Do you read anything into, Corey, the fact that Viggo Bjork has had a bigger role than Anton Frondell for Sweden?
- [50:17]
Corey Pronman
Well, there's, I think, two different parts of that conversation that goes to how competitive and dependable and smart and all the great things that Viggo Bjork brings to the table and is that Anton Frondell kind of Had a little up and down pre tournament that he, you know, I've used Jekyll and Hyde with him before and that's kind of what he is sometimes, is that, you know, you look at the straight, you know, in the SHL this year, there were times he was benching, there was times he was on a terror, you know, a torrid scoring stretch. And then he comes over to the NHL in the spring and he was just fantastic with Chicago. And then he goes to go to Team Sweden and he plays just okay. And now he. That he gets into the lineup and he gets two points. It's. That's kind of what he is, I think, you know, he's competitive, but he's not. Doesn't have the off the charts compete that Bjork does. So I feel like with, like Bjork is just Mr. Consistency. That's what he's been for two years. And so I could. I see why. I think scratching Frontel was a little harsh. Like, I think given what they had, the limited skill this team brought, like, they think they should have played him from the start. But it didn't surprise me. Like, I didn't agree, but it didn't surprise me. Yeah.
- [51:32]
Chris Peters
All right.
- [51:32]
Max Boltman
The other tournament I want to get, Scott, is, is the one that begins on Friday night, the Memorial Cup. And you know, there's some prospect intrigue always to this one, but I think especially when Landon dupont is at the center of this. So the, the teams competing in this Memorial Cup, Everett, Colona, the hosts Chicoutimi and Kitchener, start on dupont. But I do just kind of want to hear your overall thoughts on what you're looking for in this Memorial Cup.
- [51:53]
Scott Wheeler
I'm just looking for Landon to be the landed that he has been. Like, he has been outstanding. He has really elevated for them this year. He had a tremendous, historic season a year ago, and I think he's been a much, much better player, a much more impactful player in all three zones this year. The offense has really, really sort of found another notch, that the mobility has found another notch. The one thing I wondered about with Landon early on in his development was that he was super physically advanced. And I didn't actually think he had that sort of Cale Makar, Quinn Hughes skating. And I still don't think he has that level of skating, but the shakes and the lateral mobility and all of that is very, very real. And he makes a lot of guys miss and he's attacking downhill and playing with a ton of confidence. And then on top of that, for a six Foot defender. He's strong and he defends really well and he's so, so smart and he looks like a potential first overall defenseman, even at sort of 6 foot and 185, 190 pounds. So I'm excited to see him live again. Like it's been a minute since I've seen Landon live. So I'm excited about that and I'm excited for, for him to, to demonstrate if he can really rise at an even tougher level. And the one criticism I think you have of Everett coming into this tournament is that in terms of the, the level of competition that Kitchener and Chicoutimi face, the top two, three teams in both of those leagues I think were stronger than the top two or three teams in the whl. And so this will be, this will be the biggest test of, of Landon's career so far.
- [53:28]
Max Boltman
I think looking for Landon could just be the, the title of our next 12 months of this show. That's our, that's our theme. That's the season 20, 26, 27 predictions. I want each of you to give me a winner for the Memorial Cup. Scott, you want to start?
- [53:41]
Scott Wheeler
I'm going to go with Chicoutimi. I've, the more I've watched this Chicoutimi team, the more impressed I've been. I think they've got the deepest blue line. That blue line is outstanding. Tigny, Huang Lavois, who else is on that? There's a fourth guy, the Seattle oh, Alexi Bernier who just signed with Seattle. Like their top four is legit. I think in Lucas Beckman they've got the best goalie in the tournament. They don't quite have the firepower up front that Kitchener and Everett have. But Maxime Masse has really emerged this season as a star in junior hockey and I think they've got enough behind Massey to score enough goals. And then I just, I really like their, their D Hwang in particular I think flies under the radar as a prospect. Like he's, he's been very impressive this season and Lavois a stud at that level and can eat minutes and Beckman is, is I think the best goalie in the tournament. So Eileen, I like all three of the non hosts in this, in this field but I, I lean Shaku to me.
- [54:36]
Chris Peters
I think Chris, I'm going to go with Kitchener. I think that the Rangers have that kind of championship built squad in terms of there's a heaviness to them. Sam O'Reilly is a real difference maker. You know, even the way that they kind of beefed up their blue line with Jared Woolley. Then they have kind of just those guys that can score for you. You know, Jack Pridham and Dylan Edwards who had such a great end of the season. They're really impressed by that group. And then Christian Kirsch is really kind of the goaltender. He can be the difference in the tournament. You know, they, they only lost two games during the playoffs and, and really, you know, handled themselves well. I would have loved to have seen what they would look like against, you know, a full strength Barry without, you know, who didn't have Colbo Dwen or what they would have looked like against Brantford. I think it would have been a real test for them. But I just think like a guy like Sam O'Reilly at the center of everything for them is, is a, an impressive difference maker at that level.
- [55:33]
Scott Wheeler
I think O'Reilly is the best forward in this year's tournament in terms of what he's currently on as a player.
- [55:39]
Max Boltman
Third straight MEM cup for him too. So he's been there, done that this moment.
- [55:43]
Scott Wheeler
I do think they need more just quickly. But I do think they need more from Pridham. Like Pridham saw his role reduced there late in the playoffs and yes, wasn't a go to guy for them and they, they need him to score.
- [55:53]
Chris Peters
Yeah, he, he sat a lot of shifts in overtimes that they played this year, which is not what you want to see from your top score.
- [55:59]
Max Boltman
Corey, last word to you. Who's winning it?
- [56:02]
Corey Pronman
Kitchener. I just think the way they play, it's, it's. I like the play style I think is just conducive to this time of year. Sam O'Reilly's been a man on a mission here the last few months. I just been really impressed by their, by their postseason and I think this is their time.
- [56:20]
Scott Wheeler
Interesting that none of us picked Everett who were number one in the CHL's rankings for almost the entire season.
- [56:27]
Chris Peters
The dub win at the memcup.
- [56:29]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, the issue with the dub is that you kind of see with the Q is that, that there's so many teams in the Western League and there's a. Usually a decent number of teams. I think they have a chance and the queue realizes very quickly who doesn't have a chance. And all the good players end up on a couple of teams like the West. Like I think Everett was very clearly the best team in the Western League this year. But it doesn't mean. But doesn't mean they have they got enough at the trade deadline to get them over the hump here in the CHL tournament. I think they could. I think this is still a really, really good team. I think this is a different Western League team. That's one of the ones we've seen enter the MEM Cup. I think they have a really deep roster and they could go the distance, but that's always the issue with them between the other between the other two leagues.
- [57:15]
Scott Wheeler
I should also say that I probably disrespected Teege again, though, when I said that Sam O'Reilly was the best forward in this year's field because Teege is at the junior level. This year was unbelievable.
- [57:25]
Chris Peters
But yeah, you're still not wrong.
- [57:26]
Max Boltman
O'Reilly's got a goal a game in these playoffs. I think it's a fair point that's going to do it for us. Thanks for listening. This episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. You can of course catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast called Up I Love that Wave. And obviously Scott and Corey coming out with new content every single day at the Athletic. We'll see you over there and we'll talk to you soon.
- [57:50]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Hi, this is Farnoosh Tarabi from so Money with Farnoosh Tarabi and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile. Quick Money Tip Stop paying a carrier Tax if your phone bill feels trapped in a pricey plan, this is your sign to unlock savings. Boost Mobile helps you reset your spending. With the $25 Unlimited Forever plan, you can bring your own phone, pay $25 and get unlimited wireless forever. And that simple switch can unlock up to $600 in savings a year. That's money you could put towards paying down debt, investing or something that actually brings you joy. Those savings are based on average annual single line payment of AT&T Verizon and T Mobile customers, compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com Parle tu Francais?
- [58:42]
Scott Wheeler
Hablas espanol?
- [58:43]
Max Boltman
Parle italiano.
- [58:45]
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