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- [00:00]
Boost Mobile Expert
Knock knock.
- [00:01]
Corey Pronman
Ooh, who's there?
- [00:02]
Boost Mobile Expert
A boost mobile expert here to deliver and set up your all new iPhone 17 Pro designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever.
- [00:08]
Max Boldman
You called that a knock knock joke?
- [00:10]
Boost Mobile Expert
This isn't a joke. Boost mobile really sends experts to deliver and set up your phone at home or work.
- [00:14]
Max Boldman
Okay, it's just that when people say knock knock, there's usually a joke to go with it.
- [00:18]
Boost Mobile Expert
Like I said, this isn't a joke.
- [00:19]
Max Boldman
So the knock knock was just you knocking?
- [00:22]
Boost Mobile Expert
Yeah, that's how doors work.
- [00:23]
Max Boldman
Get the new iPhone 17 Pro delivered and set up by an expert wherever you are. Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com terms apply.
- [00:30]
Boost Mobile Expert
Big news. Boost mobile is now sending experts nationwide to deliver and set up customers new phones at home or work.
- [00:36]
Scott Wheeler
Wait, we're going on tour?
- [00:37]
Boost Mobile Expert
Not a tour. We're delivering and setting up customers phones so it's easier to upgrade.
- [00:41]
Corey Pronman
Let's get in the tour bus and hit the road.
- [00:43]
Boost Mobile Expert
No, not a tour bus. It's a regular car we use to deliver and set up customers phones at home or work.
- [00:47]
Max Boldman
Are you a groupie on this tour?
- [00:49]
Boost Mobile Expert
We deliver and set up phones. It's not a tour.
- [00:51]
Max Boldman
Oh, you're definitely a groupie.
- [00:53]
Boost Mobile Expert
Introducing store to door switch and get a new device with expert setup and delivery wherever you're at.
- [00:58]
Max Boldman
Delivery available for select devices purchased@boostmobile.com we.
- [01:01]
Royal Kingdom Ad Voice
Interrupt your regularly scheduled podcast with some breaking news. Millions of people are now playing the mobile puzzle game Royal Kingdom. This is not a drill. Royal Kingdom has thousands of levels and is incredibly fun. What's that? I'm hearing from my producer that it has no ads and it is completely free to download. What's next? You're gonna tell me it doesn't need wifi? This just in. Royal Kingdom doesn't need wi fi to play. We will continue to keep you updated as this story develops. But get it today and see for yourself. Download it on the Google play or app store. Today.
- [01:46]
Chris Peters
This is the athletic Hockey show.
- [02:01]
Max Boldman
Hey everybody. Max Boldman here alongside the athletics, Corey Promman, Scott Wheeler and flow hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the athletic hockey show prospect series. A fun episode guys. One of our favorites that we do every year. It's Corey's mid season update to his under 23.
- [02:16]
Scott Wheeler
Peters is rubbing his hands already.
- [02:18]
Max Boldman
Well, that's why because this is the day that we get to to do a thorough fisking of Corey's list. So let's, let's, let's start here at the very top. You got an Unsurprising trio, I would say. Macklin, Celebrini, Connor Bedard, Leo Carlson, Scott though you've got an issue right off the hop.
- [02:35]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, that. Honestly, my biggest gripe on Corey's list was Matthew Schaefer at number four and more than Matthew Schaefer at number four. Matthew Schaefer not in the elite NHL player tier projection. I think if he's not that already, he's close. He's 18 years old and I think the sky's the limit for Matthew Schaefer. I think we're looking at a player who's going to win Norris Trophies in this league or at least potentially contend for them with, with the Kale Makars and the Quinn Hughes in the next few years here. And then my other gripe with it was, was the above, above average skating grade that, that sort of flipping through all the grades. That was the. One of all of the top players that kind of floored me a little. Like I think, I think if you were to pull NHL skating coaches who are the 5 or 10 most impressive skaters in the NHL today. Matthew Schaefer is probably unanimously or close to unanimously in that conversation. So I just. That one surprised me. I'm fine with Schaefer at four behind Celebrini, Carlson and Bedard, but I think he belongs in the elite tier and I think the skating is, is, is world class. Yeah.
- [03:44]
Corey Pronman
Honestly, if you just watch the first half of his NHL season and just, just watch that player, I agree with you. He probably belongs right there with Carlson. As you know, in terms of what I've seen in the NHL this year, he's been spectacular in the first half of the season and he was right on the precipice of me of being elevated into that elite tier. My hesitation at the end just came down to body of work which would. Shaffer has been very impressive what he has played but really hasn't played much hockey in the last year. He's only played half a season in the NHL. Some people might remember that Aaron Ekblad in his 18 year old year for example, came out flying in the NHL. He put up very similar numbers to what Schaefer did in the first half of, of this season and then you know, kind of levels off a little bit as time went on. And I think Schaefer's a more talented player. Thank blood. Better skater, more puck game. So that's kind of where I fell a little bit. I was like, I just want to get a little bit more data. Even if it's A full season of data. Like, I just wanted a little bit more before I said, like, he's in the same group as, like, a Bedard, for example. I'm not quite there yet, but I don't think it's unreasonable. Like, if we were having, like, this collective ranking together and the three of you decided, like, this is where we're going, I'd be like, yeah, that's fine. He's an outstanding player, having an excellent rookie season, and you see all the traits and the. And the character that compete in his game, and I think it's reasonable, but I just. I just couldn't quite get there yet.
- [05:16]
Max Boldman
That is probably a good opportunity, Corey, to kind of clarify one portion of this list. Right. Is that it is projecting base. And certainly there's a. There's a whole lot of good to project with Matthew Schaefer, but you're looking at not so much who's had the best first half, not so much who's proven the most yet. You're looking three, four, five years down the line here.
- [05:32]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I'm looking at who do I want in my NHL organization for the next decade. Plus I'm looking at a. Guys who I think will have the most impactful pro careers. That is the. That is the objective of this list. It's why there will be players on there who have played. Play 200 NHL games, and there'll be players out there who played zero NHL games. And it's funny, I often. One of the most common gripes I get with this kind of exercise is how can you compare guys in the league to guys who are outside of the league? I'm like, well, NHL teams have to do this. Give. Iv. You know what? When the Quinn Hughes trade happened, you know, Z. Boyen was. Had barely played in the NHL. Liam Ogren had barely played in the NHL. But that's part of the exercise. You evaluate talent and some. Sometimes there's projection, sometimes there's less projection. But at the end of the day, you have to assess the value of the player based on your evaluation of their traits and their production.
- [06:21]
Max Boldman
Yeah. All right, so Matthew Schaefer is at four. Five is Logan Cooley. Six, Wyatt Johnson. Then there's a tear break.
- [06:27]
Chris Peters
Seven.
- [06:27]
Max Boldman
Your I. Slavkovsky. Eight, Ivan Dimitov. Nine, Will Smith, tear break. And then Dylan Genther is atop the next group and Chris Peters. Anything I said there resonate with you?
- [06:38]
Chris Peters
Yeah, we. I don't know how many years we've had the. The Cooley, Slavkovsky, and to a lesser extent, over Time Shane Wright debate, but I win.
- [06:53]
Corey Pronman
So when I did this list. So he's. What Chris is trying to say that he had, you know, he's been a Cooley as the best player in his draft class advocate for years and since.
- [07:02]
Chris Peters
Halfway through his draft year.
- [07:03]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. And it's been a very reasonable take for a long time. It's funny though, when I made this list was like I finalized it I think like right during the world juniors and since then Slafkovsky's been on like a tear of late and I, I don't think you should change your opinion based on a couple of games. But I thought it was really close. I mean I thought, I basically have thought it's been close between those two for years, essentially. I know Chris thinks it's not close, so that's fine. He could be wrong.
- [07:29]
Chris Peters
Well, I mean, it's closer. I'd say it's closer than I used to think.
- [07:32]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, for sure anyway. But I still think it's really close and it's just gotten even closer since I published it or since I put together the evaluation. You know, two very different players. Cooley, the elite play driving elite speed and compete centerman. Slatkowski's really coming to his own as a powerful winger who's. I don't know if the offense in this game is ever going to be like truly, truly elite, but there's like a lot of offense there. I mean Montreal's offense is just rolling right now kind of thing. All those young kids are scoring and he's been a big part of that. And I think it's between those two guys and it might be between those two guys for years, they might flip flop as the years go on. But right now, Cooley, just because he's a center, I would, I would get the slight edge to him.
- [08:11]
Chris Peters
Yeah. And honestly, like, you know, it is very close and I think that the, the, the fact is, is that, you know, when you're making kind of these determinations, you know we're going to get plenty right, plenty wrong over time. And as we are doing, these U23 lists, they're, they're kind of living documents. It's a snapshot in time of where that player's projection is. The thing that I would say that, you know, and I was pleased to see that, you know, Corey had elevated Cooley is, I think what we've seen from Logan Cooley at the NHL level is actually exceeds what I thought he would be early on. I didn't think it was necessarily that strong of a Draft year. You know, I didn't think that even though I had Cooley number one, that he wasn't, you know, like I didn't feel super elated or confident about that. Like it was. But, but what I think he has become is, is a really strong all around player. He is continually, you know, upping the competitive drive that I think, you know, it never really was a concern for me, but it, how was it going to translate at the NHL level? I think we've seen that. You know, I think he's very much, you know, we, we talked about him in the Olympic discussion at the time, very reasonably so. I, I just think he's a, a tremendous player and, and so is Slafkovsky. Like I'm, I, I'm, I'm being more jokey when I'm saying like I win because you know what, it could change. And we've, we've done these lists years, Corey. How many times have we done redrafts where we redrafted a guy and then all of a sudden we're like actually either we were right or we were, you know, even after doing the redraft. And that's going to be the interesting kind of thing to follow over the years.
- [09:47]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, you look at the fours in the 23 draft, for example, you know, Will Smithfield, Carlson and Fantilly. My fave, Mitch Goff. That order has been something we've debated for years. I think we're, we're going to continue to debate it as time goes by. I mean, you know, I think, remember Carlson vs. Fant Tilly was so contentious for years. Even what's in the summer when I put, I put Carlson over Fantilli. And now it's like the conversations more like, well, where does Fantilly fit with Will Smith right now? Is Matvey Mitchkov even in this conversation anymore? Despite that, I think this whole panel was Matvey Mitch cop lovers, you know, for, for years. And he's been awful this season. So I think these are, these are all, you know, continuously evolving debates.
- [10:26]
Max Boldman
Well, let's go to Mitchkov right now then because he's at number 20 on your list, still very high. He's still in that tier that puts him on the bubble of a top line player in NHL all Star. But to your point, as you see, some of the other guys from the top of that draft class really hit kind of supernova. Mitchkov's probably take it a step backward this season.
- [10:43]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah.
- [10:43]
Corey Pronman
And I think, listen, we have discussed Mitchkov. I think I said for years we know what he is and what he's not, he is super skilled. He is super intelligent. When the puck's on his stick in the offensive zone, you love him. When he has, when he's on the power play, you love him. But there are things about his game that will frustrate you and has frustrated now several coaches. You know, he's not a great skater. He's not super hard to play against. He's small. I don't think he's perimeter like I think for a small guy he gets to the inside at the NHL level well enough but his effort level doesn't, you know, get you overly excited. And like I still think it's still only a guy who's a couple of years removed from being drafted. He between he had a really good rookie year in the NHL so he doesn't lack track record. He was scored in the khl. He scored everywhere. He's gone. I think he's going to score still. Even though he's had a really tough first half year, I think he's going to bounce back. He's going to put up plenty of numbers. But, but I think with Mitchkov what you're worrying is not if whether the offense is going to be there and be there in big numbers, is it going to be special enough to compensate for some of the headaches you're going to get along the way. And I think at the end of the day ultimately it will be mostly good enough. But I don't know if I think his first half this year has started to beg more questions than kind of the questions we had in his draft year of like is he just such a special, unique player that you would prefer to have him over a play driving centerman or a great two way defenseman or, or something along those lines. I think it's, it's begged more debate at least right now.
- [12:11]
Scott Wheeler
It's kind of where he went. It's kind of where he went though. Like we talk about those five, but he went seven. Right.
- [12:17]
Corey Pronman
So yep.
- [12:18]
Scott Wheeler
This isn't, I don't think when we're redrafting it we have to sort of reassess him with those five. We have to reassess him relative to where he went. Now I'd still take him over David Reinbacker all day, every day, but I think it speaks to the concerns that have existed since before the draft, including about his fitness level and his weight and what that was going to look like, which I think plagued him early on this season. And they've spoken obviously about maybe spoken about a little bit too much in Philadelphia because it took on a life of its own in the first month of the season there in terms of his usage and coaching staff talking about it and that kind of a thing. But he's I tend to still think that it what we've seen at lower levels and even last year is so high end in terms of the offensive IQ that he's still going to be like when we redraft. If we redraft it today, we're maybe having a bit of a different conversation. But when we redraft it 10, 10 years from now, I still think we're going to be talking about Matt Faye as one of the premium players in this class. And I think at some point in his career he's going to have that 80, 90, 95 point season here.
- [13:21]
Corey Pronman
I agree with you regarding Reinbeker. Is he clearly ahead of Semischev though, who went one spot ahead of him? I mean Osimoshev hasn't stuck in the league this year, but when he went down in the American League, I mean he's been ripping it apart for the last month and he's six' five and he could skate and he plays hard and he looks like he's got real offense in his game. I have Mishkov ahead of Simishev, but the gap for me was gigantic two years ago and I would say it's like razor thin right now.
- [13:46]
Scott Wheeler
I wouldn't say it's razor thin for me. Like I'm still taking taking Matvey, but it probably has. To your point, it was also gigantic for me and it has probably shrunk.
- [13:55]
Max Boldman
And there was probably a drop off from Mitchkov to Ryan Leonard at the time of that draft. And now Leonard's a couple spots ahead of Michkov.
- [14:04]
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- [14:35]
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- [15:34]
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- [16:11]
Max Boldman
I wanted to go to this most recent draft. Cory and Scott talked about Schaefer right off the top, but the one that was interesting to me is I expected to see Anton Frondell's name a whole lot earlier than at number 44. And granted when you're talking about basically five draft classes worth of players here, that that number can be a little misleading. But for a guy who I thought had a pretty good World Juniors, is that a pretty solid first half in the shl? Talk me through friendl and how you placed him at 44.
- [16:36]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think it's been interesting to follow Frondell because I think while you look at his numbers in the World Juniors and the shl, they all look promising. But like I thought in the World Juniors did Scott Christage any either of you think he had a good medal round? Did either you like really notice him in the big games?
- [16:54]
Chris Peters
I thought he was fine. I mean he wasn't. He wasn't one of their best players though.
- [16:58]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. Yeah, that's how I feel like in the shl he's had some really big games. And he's been like healthy scratched at times too, right? I think that's kind of been the issue with Rondell over the years, is there's been like this track record of inconsistency where like he has some incredible stretches of heights and then you don't really notice him. I think there's sometimes you question his playmaking at times and his shots elite and he scores a lot of goals as he has in the SHL and at the world Juniors this year. And he's competitive, he's physical. I do want, at the end of the day, if he's an elite play driver, tough evaluation because I could easily see me being way off on this in a year from now. If he goes back, you know, I think he's probably going to sign North America. He could be really good right away. Maybe he won't be. We'll see. But that was one of my tougher evaluations. Scott. Chris, be curious to hear what you. What if you think I'm way off.
- [17:48]
Scott Wheeler
Here on top of.
- [17:50]
Chris Peters
Go ahead, go ahead, Scott.
- [17:51]
Scott Wheeler
On top of the playmaking, I wonder a little bit about the pace as well. Like, he can get moving when he's got a head of steam, but the, the little short races in the offensive zone when he's at a standstill and like he can look a little clunky out there at times. So I do wonder if he's. The size and the detail and the shot are all real, but is that enough to be a truly high end, impactful player in the NHL? And is he a set? Like, we still haven't seen him play center despite the fact that we all keep listing him as a center. He hasn't played center in three years, basically, including with the national team. He's been almost exclusively a winger, both with his club team and with the national team.
- [18:29]
Chris Peters
Yeah, it's going to be interesting to watch. I think he is a very difficult player to evaluate because when you do see those high end moments, they're at such a level that you're just like, I mean, he's got a chance to be really special and. But I do think that, you know, the best players are the ones that are doing it consistently and the guys that are doing. And it's interesting because the Blackhawks have a few guys like this now. Like Artie Levshinov is very much in the, you know, hey, the high end looks great, but it's not super consistent. You know, I think we've seen Oliver Moore go in and out of it. We've Seen Frank Nazar go in and out of it. You know, like there's, it's to, to a lesser extent Nazar, but you know, some of these other guys. And so, you know, I do think for me, you know, I still very high on friendle. I think the upside for him and you know, if I were to, if this were my ranking, he would be higher on my list. Mainly because I think that the upside is to such a degree that it would put him over some of the players that he's behind. But it's, it's, it's one of those things where you can completely understand the argument because he is a tough eval because you don't get that consistency. I thought at the world juniors it was interesting. You know, he, he was, he was named the best forward of the tournament. Did not make the media all star team. You know, kind of an interesting pick for, for, for the directorate which has to vote on it before the, the gold medal game.
- [19:53]
Scott Wheeler
But either way make the media all star team. By the way, did he make the.
- [19:56]
Chris Peters
Media all star team? Oh, okay. Never mind. He shouldn't have.
- [19:59]
Scott Wheeler
I don't believe he made any of our.
- [20:01]
Chris Peters
He wasn't. Yeah, but it's actually just that you.
- [20:03]
Max Boldman
Personally are a hater is what's going on.
- [20:05]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah. So I, he wasn't on my ballot.
- [20:08]
Royal Kingdom Ad Voice
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- [20:10]
Corey Pronman
Like I don't mean he did.
- [20:11]
Chris Peters
He played really well.
- [20:12]
Corey Pronman
He was, he was one of the five to six best forwards. I thought there, I thought there was a big group you could have gone either way for how, how you arranged them.
- [20:20]
Scott Wheeler
He also, like, he had some 8N shot. 8N shot games in that like.
- [20:24]
Chris Peters
Yeah, he was, he was around the pucking off a lot in that tournament like he was.
- [20:28]
Corey Pronman
I just felt like when the, when the chips were down, Stenberg and Bjork were the guys they leaned on. Yeah, and that is, that's a distinction.
- [20:35]
Max Boldman
Between this player like Mason McTavish had an amazing world juniors, but I just look at the two profiles and I don't see that much difference in Mason McTavish who you got at 16 and Frondell at 44.
- [20:46]
Corey Pronman
I think with McTavish, I like that there's a, I think there's a little bit more jam there and I think I also. Well, he's also clearly a top two line center in the NHL. I think that's a question with Frontel right now. And I think because I just, I see a little bit more offense there. But like I said, I Could be wrong here. Like I said, if Frontel keeps us up and carries it over to next year, I'll, I might revisit this one. But it's a very tough eval because I feel like it's, he's very much a Jekyll and Hyde player where if you see the great moments, you're like, whoa, like, like he could be special. And then, then the moments where you're, you're, you're looking for him, you can, he could be very frustrating. You wonder if there's anything more than like a middle sticks forward at the end of the day.
- [21:29]
Max Boldman
Chris, anything from the 25 draft class stand out to you on this list?
- [21:33]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I mean, you know, and I, I, I said this to Corey to like, Misa has been one of the toughest players for me to rally behind. And I, I'm not, I'm not entirely sure why at all times. Like I, I, I, my live viewings of him and this could just be my, you know, when I'm seeing him, I've never walked away from a game thinking that is a special player. I have certainly seen him on video do special things. I have certainly seen him in moments do, do special things. And in the totality of his OHL career, he is a player where I am always seemingly left wanting more. And so, you know, I thought, you know, and I told Corey said I think he's a little too high, you know, in, in this, in this one. So, but, but again, it's very early and I think these, these 20, these 20, 25 guys like Frontell, there's a lot, there's a long Runway for this and it's going to be interesting to watch the front del Misa kind of back and forth. Obviously Corey has me so much higher at this point than Friendl. I don't think it's as big of a gap and I probably would have had me so lower on my own list. But to me, you know, I, I just, he's one of those players that, similar to Friendl There's a lot of tough evals in there. I'm never blown away. I'm always left wanting more. That's just kind of been my experience with the player. I don't know. Corey, how is yours different? I guess.
- [23:09]
Corey Pronman
Well, Max, I want to go to you for this because I feel like you, you have a good recollection of these kind of things. Wasn't it when we did our collective draft list in the spring last year, wasn't I the one arguing that Schaefer and Misa should not be in the same group. Wasn't I outvoted by, by the panel here on that front?
- [23:27]
Max Boldman
I believe that was the case. I don't remember if a super vote had to be involved or not, but that, that does ring a bell.
- [23:33]
Corey Pronman
Interesting. Anyways, I agree with Chris about how the last.
- [23:38]
Scott Wheeler
I think we'd also seen we'd seen Matthew Schaefer play about five minutes of hockey in the air.
- [23:44]
Chris Peters
Yeah, that's.
- [23:45]
Corey Pronman
Anyways that was a fun part of the conversation. Bygones could be bygones. It's fine. Anyways, I have the same frustrations with you Chris Bamisa in that I, I wish he would have more of a defining moment at times and times where he really took over games. I don't know if that's ever really been in him from when I've seen him. I think he dominated junior in part because his skating is so good and he has a really high skill level and that Saginaw team was just, you know, very talented and he had a lot of good players to play with and, and he was the best player on that team. But I think it's fair to look at this player and wonder is he going to be a first line forward? Is he a second line forward? Is he the guy on the team? Is he like the third or fourth best guy on a team? And I think we've actually opened up question now where we thought like when they drafted him like oh we got, they've got their top two line centers of the future, the Sharks and Celebrini and Misa. Now he's like oh well maybe Smith's the second line center although he's been a wing predominantly in the NHL. I think they have options and things they got to play with and I think Misa's a great player. I mean you said they are like way apart. I don't think he's that far apart from Frontale on the ultimate list. I think in terms of like gaps of talent. That gets so true. Yeah, I mean like 25 to 24 or more like yeah. And like I mean you, I just. Victory, you know.
- [25:04]
Scott Wheeler
Victory.
- [25:04]
Corey Pronman
Laughing. You guys like I mean I, you could go Hagens over Misa like honestly and I wouldn't be offended. Like I think they're, they're pretty similar as pocket as hockey players in terms of the ways, in terms of the way they play. Like I think Hagens have been ever had a very good year. Mark Towns had a very good year. McQueen's had a very good year in college. I think they'd all kind of be in that. They'd all be a kind of a group of players there.
- [25:31]
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- [26:01]
Chris Peters
Amazon One Medical Presents Painful Thoughts do they ever actually clean the ball pit at these kids play gyms? Or is my kid just swimming in a vat of bacteria catching whatever cootie of the day is breeding in there?
- [26:16]
Corey Pronman
A cootie that'll probably take down our whole family.
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- [27:57]
Max Boldman
Well, let's lift the moods of some of the Sharks fans that have heard us poo pooing Michael Misa and tell them about the rise of igor Chernyshov their 2024 draft pick. I believe he was a second round or maybe the first pick of the second round. Corey and, and Chernischev is just on a rocket ship up your list. He's actually one spot ahead of Matve Mitchkov now at number 19, tearing up the American Hockey League when he was there this year comes up to the NHL. He's producing there too.
- [28:21]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, like Cherno Chef is one of those players on Saginaw that I was just referencing last year. Him and Misa had a fantastic year together last season and I think most people would have watched those two guys and thought, oh well, Misa is the one driving this and it's helping Turner Chef and then they turn pro and Turner Chefs without Misa. A year in the American League and he was just outstanding like all, all situations player in the American league as a 19 year old. Driving play, playing hard, getting to the net, showing legitimate, you know, skill and playmaking ability to go with his size and his speed. Then the Sharks get some injuries, he comes up and you know, he gets to ride shotgun with Celebrini, which, which you know is probably one of the cushiest spots in the NHL next to playing with McDavid. And he does just a fantastic job with it and the scoring continues. And it's not just he's scoring, it's the way he scores. It's a direct style of play. It's a, it's a toolkit that you know is going to translate. And now this is a guy for now, you know, over a year at three different levels, the ohl, ahl, NHL has scored in a significant way. And there's just a lot to be excited about with this player. Maybe I'm being a little over ambitious here with how high I have him, but to me he looks like a top potential, top line winger, a premium prospect and a guy who's going to be a very essential part of this Shark's build going forward. To go with Smith and Celebrini and Misa, I think, you know, not, he's not in celebrity's level, but the rest of those guys, I think he belongs in that conversation.
- [29:47]
Scott Wheeler
He can absolutely rip it too.
- [29:50]
Max Boldman
Yes.
- [29:50]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, he's got, he's got a lot of traits there to work with and just like I said, a very fascinating prospect at this point.
- [29:58]
Max Boldman
There's, there's probably a few of the lesser widely known Russian players on this list that we could talk about, like Chernyshev's at 19, but you've also got Roman Cancerov at 23. Igor Surin was a first round pick, but maybe not as prominent as a Mitch Cover a Demidov. Like he's at 34. Alexander Zurovsky is at 39. Again, another guy ahead of Anton Frondell who was a top three pick in the last draft. Corey, like I know I just threw a bunch of names at you all at once, but some of these Russians are really moving up your list.
- [30:24]
Corey Pronman
I think it speaks in part to the lack of information we get on these players at times. Like if these guys were all playing on national teams and all the major tournaments, I think we would have better data on them and maybe some of these movements wouldn't be as severe. But you mentioned those guys like Cancerov. I think, you know, he's only what, 21 years old right now. I think you can argue he's the best player in the KHL this season. Like he's been that good. He's been the best player on the best team and with magnetogor skin he's not that big. But great skater, great compete, great skill, scores lots of goals. Like fantastic players. S would have been one of the best players on Locomotive. Was a top team in the league and he's a teenager, went to go play with a senior Russian team. He played fine, super physical play driving centerman who plays playing wing mostly as a pro, but he's got offense a lot there to like. I mean Sharovski's having an absolute monster here. You're talking about him versus Frondell. I think we would probably all agree the KHL is better than the SHL as a league. Like Swarovski's production is notably ahead of Rondel's this year and that's half a season of data. So that doesn't prove anything. But I think Zarovsky. What Zarovsky's doing right now is. Is super impressive. The skills. I remember watching him in the summer at the Milstein's camp and thinking, oh, he's got a lot of skill. Like it's really impressive. How is this going to translate and. And like it's translate in like white. It's like a wow level skill now for me. Like he's got top six caliber tools to go with his skating and decent enough size and compete level. Yeah. So it's been really fascinating to follow the bell of these Russians and I think the biggest risers from across the board for me have been Russians and I think that might speak to the kind of new world order we're in right now.
- [32:09]
Scott Wheeler
Where.
- [32:11]
Corey Pronman
You know, you even see with, you know, with Demidov, who went five in his draft, he's probably, you know, undisputedly the second best player in his draft at the current moment. Like it's, it's going to be. I wonder how things develop on that front going forward now. You know, there's some good Russians in the next draft. I don't know, there's high end ones. I think what's really interesting is going to next year when you have Nasar Privilev at the top of next year's draft is does someone have the nuts to take him 1, 1 if we feel like he belongs in that conversation, talent wise, do people try to start finding ways to go over there to go watch these players live more consistently? Because I feel, it feels like teams, particularly in Montreal, have been getting value out of picking Russians.
- [32:57]
Max Boldman
For those of you listening on audio, Scott reached over and literally patted himself on the back on Dimitov. So these are the kind of things you miss when you do not subscribe and watch on YouTube, which we would strongly encourage you to do.
- [33:08]
Corey Pronman
One of the things I think is.
- [33:09]
Max Boldman
Interesting in general, and this ties into those three players you just mentioned, Corey, because a lot of them are assigned to these three teams. Montreal, Chicago and Utah come out of this looking pretty good here. Utah does not have one of those guys. They do have Dimitri Simishev, who's another high level Russian. San Jose, another one as well. These are the rebuild, Scott, that they come out of this looking really promising. And you have Montreal and you've got under 23. You've got Slavkovsky, Demidov, Hudson and now Zhurovsky's in this mix. San Jose, you add Chernischev to the Celebrini, Dickinson, Smith, Misa, Core Chicago. Yeah, okay. Friendel and, and Lev should have maybe aren't going nuclear, but you have the rise of Nasor now you have cancer off. Like these are some of the most exciting. These are probably the most exciting rebuilds in the league.
- [33:53]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah. I mean, and going through your list of Montreal guys there, you didn't even mention the kid who just led the world juniors in scoring and Michael Hage. Right?
- [34:00]
Max Boldman
That's right.
- [34:01]
Scott Wheeler
There's, there's a lot coming. Chicago is going to be picking high again this year. San Jose, Utah and Montreal, not quite as high, but we're like quite likely going to see Chicago picking top three again. So there, there's, there's reason for optimism in all of those places. We've seen flashes even from I'm not sure what he'll ultimately be at the NHL level, but even from Nick Glardis, and we haven't even talked about Caleb De Noyer and Teju Ginla and some of the. The sort of pieces of the puzzle that they have in Utah. So those groups, all four of those groups, and San Jose in particular, like Montreal's in the, in the sort of race to lead the Atlantic Division here, but San Jose in particular just feels like there's this swell of, okay, we could, we could have something special here, like maybe this is the next Chicago Blackhawks, right? Like maybe this is the next Los Angeles Kings. Like, it feels it like, like San Jose just because of, maybe just because of Celebrini, but it feels like San Jose's got even more reason to be optimism about a Stanley cup future. I think Montreal, Chicago, Utah, all of those teams have a. Have a pathway to get there, but I think there's still a lot that would have to happen for each of them. With San Jose. I'm not sure you're really missing the core pieces at this stage, so especially if Chernyshov sort of joins that group as Corey was talking about, and becomes like a true, true front of the lineup player for them, suddenly you look at the, at what's coming in San Jose, and I think that's the team that maybe has the, the clearest path. Like, the road in front of them is probably most open.
- [35:42]
Max Boldman
They need at least one more D, I think.
- [35:44]
Scott Wheeler
Yep.
- [35:44]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, it doesn't look like really good right now. Like it's, it's accelerating. Is just completely carrying and willing this team to a playoff spot right now.
- [35:55]
Chris Peters
Yeah. And that, and that is you need the cornerstone. You need the, the nuclear. Like, he is the whole core. The core is a guy. It's one guy decide.
- [36:06]
Scott Wheeler
It's incredible when they decide to spend in free agency, too. That is going to be the sales pitch, right? Like, it's going to be, come play with this kid and let's, let's do this.
- [36:15]
Chris Peters
And they'll want to. They'll definitely want to. I mean, that, that to me, like celebrity is, is at a level that we did not like. I, I think collectively we did not see how high this was going to go. I talked about, you know, like, maybe his ceiling, his offensive ceiling wasn't as high as, as Bedard's. What if it's higher? You know, like, and what if everything about his game is. Is higher and the, the Crosby comparisons will only persist now and they only look more apt as he continues to do what he's doing. If you have one player like that, you. You obviously you can't do it alone with one player, but he is one of the best central pieces. You, you know, you put him in that Crosby McDavid category. It hasn't worked out for Edmonton, but I think you're looking at, you know, Scott had mentioned the. The Blackhawks, and you think about the Taves, Kane that they were able to build around. That is what we're. I do agree. I think that that's what we're seeing in San Jose. And then they're just going to continue going and then you have some of those found opportunities like a Chernischov. You know, you see some of these other guys, you go out and you get Escarov, who. Who is potentially going to be, you know, that. That goalie for them. I'm. I'm fascinated by the Sharks and I have to watch them because of one guy and then they have these other pieces that make sense. So I. You can't undersell Celebrini. You can't. He's. He's the best or oversell. I'm sorry, you can't oversell Celebrini. He is like the next era of this league. It's amazing to watch.
- [38:01]
Scott Wheeler
I do wonder if they tail off a little bit in the second half here. Whether a Chase Reed or an Albert Smiths or a Carson Carls makes a lot of sense there as well. Dickinson has been okay this year, but Dickinson has some. Has some flaws in his game as well. And there's no guarantee that Sam becomes that true number one for them. So that. That's to Max's point. That's. That's the piece that they have to find somewhere.
- [38:27]
Corey Pronman
Is that player even in this draft, like, I love Verhoff, Smith, Carl's, Reed. I don't know if any of them are that player either, to be perfectly honest. But it's good to have. I'd rather have two really good guys than just one really good guy. Like, you don't need to have a star number 1D to win. There's no set criteria. It helps a lot. You don't, you know, Florida didn't have that the last two years.
- [38:48]
Max Boldman
It'll be interesting where they pick.
- [38:50]
Scott Wheeler
Washington didn't really have it. As good as John Carlson is and has been.
- [38:56]
Max Boldman
They may not have access to Reed, Carl Smith's, Verhoff.
- [38:59]
Chris Peters
Right.
- [38:59]
Max Boldman
They may be picking in the early teens. And what could be interesting is are they in a perfect spot to take A shot on a Xavier Villeneuve or a little bit later on like a Ryan Lynn kind of thing and go for the, the power play type.
- [39:10]
Corey Pronman
I'd be really surprised if my career took one of those two guys. He, he, he, he does not like that kind of player.
- [39:16]
Scott Wheeler
All right, they did take Cagnoni, but in the fifth round later. Yeah.
- [39:24]
Max Boldman
One difference going back to that kind of comparison of those three, four rebuilds. What one difference in. And you could say this about Utah as well, but Montreal compared to San Jose and Chicago, like, I think we know for sure that it's, it's Askarov and it's night in those two places. We're getting an indication that it may be Jacob Fowler in Montreal. But Scott, like, you know, you had a gripe with that like, Fowler's not on this list.
- [39:48]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, Corey has six goalies on his list and goalies are always hard to slot in an exercise like this. Side by side forwards, especially in that U23 category where they just aren't quite as developed. But Fowler for me is, is like if I'm doing a top 10 goalie ranking today, he's not outside of my top six. And he might be 1, 2, 3. In fact, he would be 1, 2, 3 for me. I think he's been good already at a very young age. He's 21, he's been good in the NHL this year, he's been good in the AHL. He was obviously sensational. Arguably the best goalie in college hockey in his. Across his two years in college hockey before that in the U.S. like there's just, there's a five or six year track record now that is pretty unimpeachable with Jacob Fowler. And I think he's got a chance to be the starter that Montreal needs him to be and to be the goalie of the future there. So that I was a little bit surprised that Fowler wasn't one of the goalies on the list.
- [40:42]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, for me the, the issue is not that he hasn't done really well at lower levels. I worry for a guy who doesn't have elite athletic traits. You know, he's whatever, he's below average size goalie. He's not an elite side to side athleticism type of goalie. I worry on the projection there a little bit. I tend to that we've tended to disagree over the years on guys like Dustin Wolf and Devin Levi and how quickly to elevate those guys to the highest levels in the NHL. And like, I was never a big Levi guy. I thought the contract Calgary gave Wolf was ridiculous. But I thought the same thing about Jeremy Swayman and Swayman's kind of in the one that I kind of see Fowler potentially being if. If he hits like, that kind of goalie, like, and that's. I'm. I can see it. Like, I could even see myself get there by the end of the year if he continues at a high level in the NHL. But that's just kind of like, similar to the Schaefer argument we started the show with. I just want a little bit more data at this level before I get him there. Because at the moment, I still think, like, the profile is more like a tandem backup guy when it's all said and done. Just the tools or don't. Don't just jump out to me as, like, a true, like, number one starting goal in the NHL.
- [41:55]
Scott Wheeler
I just don't see the data argument against him. Like, how it would be impossible at his age to have better data for us to back an opinion. Like, you've got Marcus Kiblov and guys.
- [42:07]
Corey Pronman
Who'Ve shown us he's been prolific at lower levels. That's not the argument for me. It's just, like, how those tools are going to translate into the NHL are a minor question for me.
- [42:16]
Chris Peters
What about his hockey sense, Corey?
- [42:18]
Corey Pronman
It's excellent.
- [42:19]
Chris Peters
Yeah, that, to me, is the separator for him.
- [42:23]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, he's excellent. He got excellent hockey sense. But, like, so does Wolf. So does Levi.
- [42:28]
Scott Wheeler
I mean, he's 3. 3 inches and 25 pounds heavier than those guys. He's a much bigger goalie. He's 62205 or whatever. Like, he's a much bigger.
- [42:38]
Corey Pronman
Is he actually six two, though?
- [42:41]
Chris Peters
I think.
- [42:41]
Scott Wheeler
I mean, that's his listing.
- [42:43]
Corey Pronman
I know. All right.
- [42:45]
Chris Peters
Six one, six two. I mean, whatever.
- [42:47]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, yeah, it does. Yeah, he's better.
- [42:49]
Scott Wheeler
He's not 5' 11.
- [42:51]
Corey Pronman
He's better than Levi. Like, there's. That's not what I'm trying. I'm just meant, like, the undersized goal. I'm trying that. I'm trying to think of anybody else. Like, I think Swayman's closer in terms of the tools, the. The athletic profile. Like, that's probably a little bit more on the nose for me there. So, yeah, I. I'm on the fence. Like, I could go either way. Like, I don't think what you're saying is unreasonable at all, Scott. I probably wouldn't get him, like, towards, like, a top 50 prospect in hockey or something like that. But, like, he's a good player and like defend me if you want to put them somewhere in this range.
- [43:25]
Scott Wheeler
The only other one I wanted to raise, and we've been at this at Corey for a while here, but we talked about Jurovsky and some of those sort of skill guys in the 30s and 40s on this list. And the one skill guy that I felt belonged higher the sort of, the deeper among the deeper cuts once you got into the thick of it on the list is still Gabe Pro. And I know we've talked about him a lot, but I don't see much of a difference between the profile of Alexander Zurovsky at 39 and Gabe Perot with all that Gabe has accomplished at the college level with what he's shown us at the AHL level this year. And I think sometimes we knock, and I know you've been lower on Perot all along, but I think sometimes we knock guys when they don't immediately have that sort of NHL impact that we're looking for. But I think that could, that could well happen with Jurofski or one of those guys who's in the. One of those sort of five, 11, six foot skill wingers who's in that sort of 30s, 40s, 50s range, which is where I would have Perot on my list. I, I think we could be seeing that. We could see a very similar path play out for Juravsky when he comes over here where he's a productive guy in the AHL and he doesn't immediately land with Montreal at the NHL level. And I, I just think that there's, there are a lot of lines to draw between Jarovsky and Perot. So I was pretty surprised at the 80, 80 placement gap. Like that's not one of those ones where it's a 10 or 20 placement gap for me, Like I would have. I, I'm still a big believer in Per in Gabe and I think he's been outstanding in Hartford whenever I've watched him and has been their only real play creator on that team.
- [44:58]
Corey Pronman
Juroski is both taller and faster than Perot though, isn't he?
- [45:02]
Scott Wheeler
Jurowski's like 165, 170 pounds, so I'm, I wouldn't get bogged down in it versus six feet.
- [45:11]
Corey Pronman
I think he's like six one, isn't he?
- [45:13]
Scott Wheeler
I don't think so anyways.
- [45:15]
Corey Pronman
But I think the skating is definitely a differentiator there. And like, like for me that's. The feet are definitely like the gapes. It's a slow 511 forward. Like that's to me he's going to be the big hindrance and that's my concern. Like I debated cutting him altogether. Like, all right, see I, I think.
- [45:33]
Scott Wheeler
Gabe, like I'm still very confident that Gabe becomes a 60, 70 point winger in the NHL. Just the way he thinks the game, the skill level, the power play. I think Gabe's going to be a high end player in the league still.
- [45:47]
Max Boldman
Well, the Rangers could use that. They are in, they are in some trouble right now. Any other teams based on looking around this list, Scott, Chris, that. Do you have even Corey, you could, you could offer one here too. Like it teams that when you look at this list you go, oh boy. I don't know if this is going to go well for them in the, in the near future here.
- [46:04]
Corey Pronman
Ottawa would be one and we talked.
- [46:07]
Scott Wheeler
About the excitement around Montreal and Chicago and Utah. But I'm, I'm worried about the Flyers and what the Flyers rebuild looks like. Porter Martone's awesome. Matt Fae's still going to be awesome. They've used two top 12 picks on two kids who might top out as third line centers for them. If, if, then that's if Jack Nesbitt is even a center in the league, which I'm not convinced at this stage that Jack Nesbitt does become a center in the league. That if they miss on both Nesbitt and that's not. If Luchenko and Nesbit both become NHL players, that's obviously positive. But if neither of those guys becomes an actually impactful move the needle type, they are still so, so, so far away. And I know they're getting better results at the NHL level this year and frankly last year they kind of hung around the playoff race longer than, than maybe people realized. But they feel almost as far away as any team in the league to me right now. Like them and the Canucks just, they have so, so, so far to go. So I'm, I'm worried about the future in Philadelphia.
- [47:14]
Corey Pronman
I'd say Winnipeg is another one that has some serious concerns on right now. There's like no, you know, Jaeger hasn't really done much down there in the American League. I like Boomidian, but you're hoping he's probably like a 4 or 5 defense then when it's all said and done.
- [47:27]
Scott Wheeler
Salomon, same thing.
- [47:28]
Corey Pronman
Barlow's been awful like and now you're like looking at this team that just signed a bunch of big money contracts to a lot of guys and it's not going well and they're all getting up there in age and they might have a high pick this year. Maybe it's McKenna or Stenberg or Verhoffer, Smiths or whoever else. And it's, it helps inject some much needed high end talent to this organization. But I think that's another one. You're looking at the direction here and saying, okay, well what's the five year trajectory in Winnipeg? I mentioned Ottawa earlier. Like they don't have much talent other than Yakam Chuk, but at least they have young talent on the team. I can see them turning around. They, their expected goals metrics are, are decent right now in the, in the NHL. Like there's more of a path there. Like with Winnipeg, they're not playing well. They don't have much talent coming up. I think that's a concern right there. I echo Scott's concerns on Philly. I think there's some, I think there's a path for them to turn around, but I think the timeline might be longer than fans thought.
- [48:23]
Max Boldman
Yeah.
- [48:24]
Scott Wheeler
Has any team ever gone from winning the President's Trophy to finishing dead last in the NHL?
- [48:31]
Max Boldman
That is good trivia. I don't know the answer to that question, but it is. I would start.
- [48:34]
Scott Wheeler
I would guess the answer is no. But Winnipeg might make some history, which is crazy.
- [48:41]
Max Boldman
I don't think it'll stay that bad. I think Hell book will elevate them probably for the worst. For the long term direction, I think you'll elevate them just outside like the top, the bottom, bottom five. But it has been a rough go there. All right, so the article is ranking the best NHL players and prospects under 23. You can read that on the Athletic. That is going to do it for us today. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. You can of course catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast called up. We'll talk to you soon.
- [49:15]
Corey Pronman
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