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- [00:01]
Derek Clason
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- [01:02]
Jesse Granger
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- [01:09]
Sponsor Voice
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Jesse Granger
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- [01:17]
Max Boltman
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Jesse Granger
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- [01:31]
Capital One Bank Guy
Cmnobile.com banking with capital one helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Ah, really? Thanks. Capital One Bank Guy.
- [01:52]
Jesse Granger
What's in your wallet?
- [01:53]
Capital One Bank Guy
Terms apply. See capital1.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC.
- [02:12]
Jesse Granger
This is the Athletic Hockey Show.
- [02:27]
Max Boltman
Hey everybody, Max Boltman here alongside Jesse Granger for a special episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. Jesse's Goalie Tears Story came out this week. Always a really good read to start the season. And Jesse, before we dive into this because there's a lot of interesting stuff in this I Want you to tell everyone a little bit about how these come together. You put together a panel of goalie coaches, retired goalies, much in the similar vein to Mike Sando's quarterback tears. And you have them rank these guys, tier these guys for them, and you kind of. You average it out or did you move them after that at all?
- [02:58]
Jesse Granger
Yeah. So the way it works is it is inspired by Mike Sandoz quarterback tiers. Craig Custance was doing the goalie tiers before I was, even before I even worked at the Athletic. But I've tried to put my own spin on it. When Craig Custance was doing it, it was obviously great. And honestly, it was my favorite thing to read on the Athletic before I worked here. But it was mostly GMs and head coaches and. And just to be frank, those guys don't know what they're talking about. I mean, obviously they do, but no.
- [03:27]
Max Boltman
One understands goalies except goalies is what you're getting at, which we would all agree with.
- [03:31]
Jesse Granger
Yeah, there is a very specific trained eye set of people in the world, and there's about 20 of them that no goalies better than anyone in the world. And I try to get as many of those people as I can. This year's panel was 11 of them. It was eight goalie coaches. Some of them are current NHL goalie coaches, some of them are former NHL goalie coaches who now work with goalies privately in the summer. And a few of them are retired goalies who had long successful NHL careers. So I ask all these people, I take my 38 goalies. Last year it was 32. There were some complaints that there weren't a couple goalies in there that played a bunch of games. So this year I added, there were a few teams where we take two goalies, and I asked this panel to go through every single one of these 38 goalies and give them a score of one through five, one being the best, elite five being the worst. And then I take all those scores, I average them out, I create a ranking based on that average, 1 through 38, break them into five different tiers. And to me, the coolest part about it isn't just the scores themselves, but it's the, like, the quotes that I get to put in there. They're all anonymous, so they can be as honest as they want. And you get some really honest, detailed feedback about not just how good these goalies are, but maybe what separates different goalies, who plays different styles, what they do well, what they don't do well. So to me, I look at it as kind of like a wikipedia of the 38 best goalies in the world going into this season.
- [04:51]
Max Boltman
It is truly, like an invaluable resource for. If you want to understand, let's say your team's goalie is going through a slump. You can pull up goalie tiers and look in there and see if you can figure out, like, what. What is this guy's weakness? Why is he. I think he should be better than this, but he's, you know, this is happening. Usually your answer is probably in this story somewhere. At least someone has alluded to it, right. Of what teams like about a guy, what they worry about with a guy. So the feedback really is the key. And I want to start on that note. There is four goalies in this top tier, I think. I don't think anyone's going to be surprised to see any of their names. Only one of them is unanimous at a 1.00. I think the other three were all 1.09. So really only like one dissenter. If my quick math, you know, helps me there. Igor Shusterkin is the only one. Why is Shusterkin just that slight sliver above even like a Connor Hellebuk, who is the reigning Vezina winner? And I, I think, would be my automatic answer for who's the best goalie in the world.
- [05:47]
Jesse Granger
Yeah, and it's. And not only that, but it's two years in a row I've done this, this experiment. Two years, and Shusturkin is the only one who has gotten solid ones across the board. And he's done it both years in a row without getting a single two grade by anyone. And it's because there are no flaws in his game. I mean, you look at Connor Hellebuck and there aren't any flaws except for that one that everybody wants to talk about constantly, and that is the struggles in the playoffs. And one of the reasons I like getting so many of these goalie coaches, because everybody has their own preferences. Like some goalie coaches, it can be that way with style. Some goalie coaches like big blocking goalies that use positioning and just let the puck hit them. Some like smaller, more athletic, more acrobatic goalies. But also some goalie coaches want consistency. That is Connor Hellebuk. You are going to get the same thing out of him every night. It doesn't matter what team you put him behind. It doesn't matter what system he's playing. It doesn't matter what night of the week it is. You're getting the same thing from Connor Hellebuck all year long. Some coaches prefer the big game performer. Jordan Bennington is a great example. He may not have the consistency over an 82 game schedule that Connor Hellebut can, but when there's a big game, there aren't. There are a few goalies you want in the net more than Jordan Bennington. So the one two that Connor Hellebutt got was a guy who really cares about playoff performances. And there, there's some nerves around him in the playoffs and I think they're justified. I've been saying we shouldn't be holding that against Conor Hellebuyck for the last year, but after it happened again in this postseason and it happened so dramatically and especially the fact that it was on the. I see why there are concerns that he needs to perform in these big games despite obviously being the most consistent goalie in this generation. Like I don't think anybody would argue that. But Igor Shusturkin back to him, just what sets him apart is not only has he been amazing and he's done it behind a team that's, that's probably not as good defensively as these other elite tier goalies. Like the other three are Bobrovsky, Vasilevsky and Hellebuk. I think everybody would agree that they probably all have better defenses and better teams in front of them. Igor Shusturkin is consistently amazing while facing. He faced more high defense dangerous shots than any goalie in the league last year. And he's. His stats are still exemplary. And then you add on the fact that when I ask these goalie coaches at the end, okay, who's the best goalie in the world? They all go to his playoff performances like the dude is a 9:30 in the playoffs every time. We didn't get to see it last year because the Rangers were so bad. But when Igor Shusturkin has played in the playoffs, he's been the best goalie in the world. In that sample that we've got so very, very hard to find a hole in his game.
- [08:15]
Max Boltman
What's interesting to me about Bobrovsky also being in that tier is like I think if you had just had me guess, I think I'd come up with the top three. Maybe not in order, but I had to come up with the top three and I probably would have Bobrovski at the top of the next tier. Is it the playoff success? I mean there was a time when that he was. When he was Connor Hallebuck. Frankly. Yeah, he was this vezina winning goalie who you didn't know if you could count on in May and June. So is it the playoff success? Like, what is it that has put Bobrovsky in with those other guys?
- [08:43]
Jesse Granger
It's, it's the playoff success and it's the ceiling. Like when Bobrovsky is on, the game's over, you lost. Like, like it doesn't matter what happened with the other teams. Like his ceiling. Compare him to Jake Ottinger, who is the, the, the highest goalie in the next tier. To me, when Jake Ottinger is on his A game, you can still beat him. Like it, like it's not going to be easy. But his ceiling isn't as high as Sergey Bobrovsky. And that's just athleticism, his creativity, the way he finds way saves in crazy situations. And I think like one of the retired goalies, one of the quotes in the story was, yeah, he's got the cups in the Vezinas, but if you take that away and just watch him play goalie, it's clear that he's like a tier one goalie. Like just watch him play. And the acrobatics, the athleticism, the sheer ceiling. He has that when, when Sergey Bobrovsky wakes up that day and is having a good day, you've lost the hockey game if you're playing against him because he's just so good. So that was really what set the tier one guys apart from the high tier two guys was the panel felt that their ability to elevate the play in front of them, transcend the play in front of them and really single handedly win a game. And Bobrovsky, obviously when he's on, he fits into that. He doesn't do it as consistent as the other three.
- [09:57]
Max Boltman
I will say that it's interesting to me because he has only gotten. He's only had Vezina votes, let alone winning it. Only vezina votes in one season since 2019. So like that I think kind of. And you know the voters for the Vezina, right. That's the general managers, I believe.
- [10:12]
Jesse Granger
Yep.
- [10:13]
Max Boltman
Right. So like you talked about, right, like goalies know goalies best. I think that is really important to, to what we're talking about here is like it's. There is a quality to. When you watch him, for the people who know him that is registering with them. And I think that's very interesting.
- [10:27]
Jesse Granger
Yeah, I mean he's, and he's fun to watch too. They don't make him like Sergey Bobrovsky anymore. He'll still throw out a pad stack every once in a while. A windmill glove save. He's fun to watch.
- [10:36]
Max Boltman
Is he a victim reputationally of the, of the teams he's played behind, do you think?
- [10:42]
Jesse Granger
Maybe. I do think that that whole situation where he got paid that huge contract and went to Florida, people still hold that over him. I think that the Panthers were not very good then and I think that the pressure of that contract and you're going to be the savior, I think he didn't handle it well and he's gotten better. The mental game, he's sharpened the details of his game and the team in front of him, probably most importantly, the team in front of him, got better and he's been a stud since then. I, yeah, I do, I do think that that early on and especially like for a few years there, you would, you would ask a random hockey fan what's the worst contract in the league? Most people would probably say Sergey Bobrovsky. I think the Panthers have been happy to pay him that $10 million a year for the past few seasons.
- [11:25]
Max Boltman
Whenever I talk goalies with people, I always like to say there's six to 10 goalies in the league that are just bankable. If you have one of them, you know, maybe not exactly what you're getting every single game, but over stretch over a month, stretch over a season stretch, you know what you're getting from those guys. So right on cue, the second tier takes us from number five, which is Jake Ottinger, all the way down through number 10. It includes Ilya Sorokin, Jordan Bennington, Jeremy Swayman, UC Soros, Dustin Wolfe. The two names in that list that I was a little surprised were in it were Bennington and Wolf for different reasons. Um, Biddington, I think we, we all know what he looks. Speaking of ceiling, like we know what Jordan Biddington ceiling is like, but there's consistency issues still there. And then Dustin Wolf just, it's kind of come out of note, like for a second year goaltender to be that high, that was alarm bells for me. Not, not in a negative way, but just like, holy cow. So those two, what did they do to get themselves included into that tier that includes your Ottingers, your Sorokins guys, who I would say are absolutely in that bankable class.
- [12:28]
Jesse Granger
Yeah, Jordan Bennington is certainly not the guy, you know what you're going to get every night there is. And I think that part of the reason he ends up in this tier, this specific year is he almost needs to like, he needs the pressure. He needs the moment in order to rise to like to play his best hockey. And I don't, I don't want to say he gets bored in the regular season, but that's what it looks like. It just looks like he's not as engaged, he's not quite as into the play. And this year you look at last year, he has the four nations gold medal and he's still riding high off that. This year is an Olympic year, you know, the beginning half of the year he's going to be wanting to prove himself to be that starter for Canada. Especially with some Canadian goalies really like, like Mackenzie Blackwood, Logan Thompson, there have been some. Sam Montembeau, there have been a lot of Canadian goalies that have played well since that four nations that are trying to take that mantle and then I think most expect him to play well in the Olympics and they think he can ride the high off of that. Combine that with the fact that I had multiple goalie coaches tell me they expect St. Louis to be one of the best defensive teams in the league this year. They were after Montgomery took over last year. And they think that he's had a whole off season to install that, that defensive system that they had in Boston that made Jeremy Swayman and Lanus Olmark Vezina candidates. They think that that combination with the fact that Bennington is going to. It's a big year for him. I had multiple people say it wouldn't surprise me if he's in the VEZ in a conversation which is not something you usually say about Jordan Bennington. He's not the type to put up big numbers over over 82 games. But they do think that there's a does this year because it just seems like all the pieces are fitting in and if the blues are good defensively, that obviously is going to allow him to put up some big numbers. Dustin Wolf, obviously very different circumstances for him. It's the eye test. He couldn't have passed it with flying color. Like he could not have passed the eye test any better. Like you said, there is some hesitancy with, with young goalies. If you look at most of the goalies his age on this list, they're way down the list. Even the super talented ones like Yaroslav Askarov, Spencer Knight, Lukas Dostahl in Anaheim didn't quite make it up there despite having a really great first season as a starter. The reason there's the buy in for Wolf after only one year is he just does so many things spectacularly well. And I think what he does well. Fits today's NHL maybe better than any goalie we've seen come into the league in the last few years. And I say that he's just fast. And it's not just. He doesn't just skate fast. He. He reacts fast, he reads the play quickly. He has quick hands, he has feet. He gets into his inside edges quickly. He pops in and out of his post integrations. His RVH faster than any goalie in the league. He just is. I wrote this last year. At one point I said, you ever listen to your podcast and you hit the one and a half speed so you can get through it faster? Dustin Wolf plays hockey at one and a half speed. He looks like he's in fast forward. Everything he does is so fast. And in today's NHL, where the players are getting faster and more skilled every day, every year, I think that's the kind of goalie you need. Now, would you prefer him to be a few inches taller? Of course you would. And that's some hesitant. There is still some hesitancy that maybe the league will figure out how to score on him because he's smaller. But look, people have been doubting this kid his entire career. He was not a high draft pick because of his height. Nobody has been able to score on Dustin Wolf his entire life. Every level he goes to, nobody can score on him. I think I'm just going to assume that that's going to continue.
- [15:49]
Max Boltman
Here's what's interesting about that, is I think there's a sense that Canada, and even to some extent the United States, that North America doesn't produce goalies like that. That if you want that kind of athleticism, if you want that kind of instinct, you got to go to Russia, you got to go to Europe, that we over technicalize our goalies here. So Dustin Wolfe, a little bit of a counterpoint to that.
- [16:09]
Jesse Granger
He certainly is. And it's funny when you look at the other American goalies that are in these top tiers, they all fit exactly what you just said. Like Connor Hellebuck, Jake Ottinger, Jeremy Swayman, they're all technical, read the play, big body, get myself in position. They're not the athletic, react and save type of goalie the Dustin Wolf is. So, yeah, he very much goes against the grain of the top elite American goalies that we see in the NHL right now.
- [16:36]
Max Boltman
All right, there's your top 10. Let's take a quick break right there. We're going to come back and I think some of the juiciest stuff he's on the back half of this list and who was not in this top 10.
- [16:47]
Sponsor Voice
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- [18:19]
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- [19:47]
Jesse Granger
Thanks.
- [19:47]
Capital One Bank Guy
Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See capital1.com bank capital1NA member FDIC.
- [20:00]
Max Boltman
All right, we're back and we're talking Jesse's goalie tiers. We are through the top 10. And there were two guys who I was. Names I expected to see in that first, those first two tiers who I did not. Those were Jacob Markstrom and Linus Ulmark. When I talked about this being an encyclopedia, or you talked about it being an encyclopedia for, for goalies, and I mentioned, you know, you look for, oh, why isn't this guy higher? It's. It's right there. For all Mark, that answer seems to be just workload concerns because this is a VEZ and a guy. I would have put him in the, in the bankable tier. Is it just that you don't know? What if you can get those 55, 60 games out of him?
- [20:34]
Jesse Granger
Yeah, I mean, there are goalie, like, I will say this. If there's, if there's something out there that goalie coaches put more emphasis on than the general public watching hockey, it's workload. They, they. They truly believe that. Like, if you're like, you look at the, the way Vasilevsky and Hellebuck carry their teams all year and they play all those games, much emphasis on that. And they, and they don't believe every goalie can do that. You see some goalie put up Great stats with 35, 40 starts, and I think the general public is like, well, if you gave him 60, he'd probably do similar. Whereas I think goalie coaches are much more hesitant to, like, if I haven't seen him prove that he can do this and handle the stresses of being the guy every night, I'm. I'm less willing to give him that tier one, tier two status. And Olmark, even though he's got a Vezina, he didn't even play that many games that year. And then he came over to Ottawa and I thought he was pretty good. He had some stretches where he wasn't as good. He was, I thought, pretty good in the playoffs despite them not lasting long, but he didn't. He was hurt all year. He was banged up for most of the season. He didn't end up playing enough games. And I think there are still some goalie coaches out there that want to see him prove that he can be that workhorse guy before they give him a higher tier grade. And Markstrom is similar, but I think it's more just concern with the age of Markstrom. He's an older goalie and he relies on his athleticism a lot. Like when I watch Jacob Markstrom, I don't see this like precise, technical goalie the way like Conor Hellebug most big goalies, even though he's a giant guy, he will flop around, he'll break out of his structure, he'll dive across like head first rather than like the traditional like butterfly slide. He's still of a, he's kind of a throwback style goalie. And when you have a big guy who has an injury history and relies on his athleticism a lot, I think part of the reason he's lower in this tier, in these tiers is, is a little bit of hesitancy around his age. I will say that he got like everybody wanted to give him props for how good he was in the playoffs last year. Again, similar to Omar. The Devils didn't go anywhere, but a couple coaches said the only reason that they were even remotely in that series against Carolina was because of how good Markstrom was. So he's, he's a guy who's streaky. If you're playing against Jacob Markstrom in a playoff series and he's like lights out in game one, you're starting to get worried. If he gives up the first two shots of the series, it's like, okay, we got this. He's. He is a very streaky goalie. When he gets hot, he's tough to score on. He, he's very rhythm based and relies on his timing because he's, he's, he's not a great reader of the play. I mean, in comparison to the elite readers. I mean this, these guys are all amazing readers of the play. They, they made it to the NHL for a reason. But when you compare him to the elite of the elite, he, he relies more on his athleticism than, than some do.
- [23:22]
Max Boltman
I think with all mart just to go back to him though, it's like that's what's interesting with the workload question is like the GMs gave him the vezina in a year where he didn't start 50 games, right? So clearly they're not worried about that. Like when they're deciding like who's the most impactful Best goalie in the league. You don't have to be a 60 start guy for them.
- [23:40]
Jesse Granger
Yeah, it's. I will say this, that year I'm typically more on the side of you need to play more games. But if you're going to make an exception, the guy better be in another universe statistically for the rest of the goalies. And he was like the gap between Olmark and everybody else when you look at like the goal saved above expected.
- [23:56]
Max Boltman
938 was the save percentage.
- [23:58]
Jesse Granger
Yeah, yeah. And his goal saves above expected were through the freaking roof. So, I mean, he, he built that gap between himself and the field to, to kind of like. Like, I'm all right with giving him that Vezina, because he was just so much better. Even though he didn't play quite as many games as some of the top guys.
- [24:12]
Max Boltman
I watched him. He had a couple games against Detroit where he was just unbeatable. Like it was. He. He won them, those games. And to me, that's the, the all mark that sticks in my head is the guy who, you know, on any given night can be, I think, as good as any goalie in the world. At his best.
- [24:27]
Jesse Granger
He's a great goalie and I think that he proved a lot to, to us and to himself last year. Like, I think a lot of people were very curious how he would look because in Buffalo, he was, he was. He was kind of coming up in the league still. He looked good, but not great. His stats weren't very good. And then you go to Boston where every goalie succeeds and you're kind of insulated. And there was some wonder, like, okay, you're going to Ottawa, a team that you're really going to have to carry. Like, you have to help be part of the change of the culture of that team, the playoffs. And he did it. He. He did it. So. So I think he answered a lot of questions and may maybe he takes another step this year.
- [24:58]
Max Boltman
The name of Tier 3 is, is fitting for this conversation, right? It is strong tandem starters, really good starter, but you're going to want a good backup to him. Another guy who's in that tier is a guy you know extremely well there in Vegas. That's Aiden Hill. Another guy. You know, I, I think he's in the right tier. I just thought I might see him a few places higher on this list. What do you think is keeping Aiden Hill from being like a consensus top 15 goalie right now?
- [25:21]
Jesse Granger
I think he still doesn't get enough credit for that cup run. The Golden Knights were incredible defensively and yes, Laurent Bersois was on his way to like he was leading them to the cup before he got hurt. And then Aiden Hill comes in and I think because of those two things he's kind of seen as like the product of, of his environment in that. And he is to a degree. But, but Aiden Hill made some huge saves and he was like a 9:30 goalie basically the entire playoffs. And I don't think so. I will say that I don't think he gets quite enough credit for what he did to win that cup. There aren't many current goalies in the league that have won the cup and he's one of them. So I think he deserves more credit for that. The other thing is last year he finally hit that 50 game mark, but prior to that his whole career had basically been. That was the story of his career was injury problems. He was highly thought of as a prospect in Arizona, but he never really played enough to make that like to take that step and be an NHL guy every night. Then they trade him to San Jose and the Sharks traded quite a bit to get him and they wanted him to be their guy, but he was hurt, he was banged up and they ended up with a really crowded goalie room that year and they traded Hill to Vegas for basically nothing because they thought they were going to lose him on waivers anyways. And then he ends up being a Stanley cup winning goalie who gets 6 million a year for six years. It's just, he just hasn't proven that he can be a workhorse for the entire season. I think last year was a big step. If he can do it again this year and play 50 games again, then I think maybe he will climb up these rankings. But he's a guy who, he doesn't flash athleticism when you watch him. He's a big goalie who uses his angles well. The Golden Knights play a solid zone defense that kind of gives up predictable. Like he knows where the shots are coming from and he's really good at getting to those spots early and making the saves look really easy. And then they don't end up looking all that impressive visually to us on the tv. But these goalie coaches that are watching him, several of them were a little higher on Aiden Hill and they were impressed with how he gets to his spots on time to make saves look easier.
- [27:16]
Max Boltman
The thing that bothers me about that line of discourse around goalies and I have this conversation with people about Chris Osgood because I think Chris Osgood should Probably be in the hall of Fame for what his resume is, for the things he's accomplished. People want to knock goalies that play on good teams. They're like, oh, look at what he had in front of him. I'm sorry, does the. Last I checked, the goal. He's the only guy that plays the whole game. Like, are we really saying that on these great teams, the only guy who gets, like, you know, knocked for that? We don't say, Jack Eichel shouldn't win the MVP because he's on a good team? Like, Aiden Hill plays more minutes than anybody on the Vegas Golden Knights.
- [27:48]
Jesse Granger
Yep. And like Marty Brodeur, that's the same argument against him being one of the greats. I had a goalie coach say something. It was kind of in relation to Marty Brodeur, but also talking about current goalies, and it's like, sometimes it can be harder to win 2 to 1 than it is to, like, you're on a bad team and you lose five to four or whatever. Like, there's no pressure on you. Like, you every. You know, if you give up a bad one, like a really. Like a really leaky goal that, you know, you shouldn't have gave up, well, I'm going to have 20 more opportunities in this game to turn the narrative back in my favor. I'm going to make some big saves, and even if we lose this game, nobody's going to blame me. Whereas when you're Marty Brodeur back there and you're facing 18 shots a game, it's like your. Your margin for error is so small, and that pressure is different. And I agree with you. It is. It is a skill to be able to win behind a good team and not those mistakes and still be able to. To show your talent in a limited opportunity setting where the mistakes are magnified.
- [28:42]
Max Boltman
Think about the difference in how we talk about Stuart Skinner, who, Like, we talk about him as, oh, you know, when he's hot, he's hot. And when he's not, he's not. But, you know, when he gets hot, like, he's, you know, as good as anybody kind of thing in the. In the playoffs, maybe not as good as anybody, but, you know, so you can steal games for you if you need to. And how we talk about every goalie who's played for the Carolina Hurricane since I've been covering the NHL. Right. Like, it's like the Hurricanes, all we ever talk about is, like, how they don't have a goalie. And if Anderson has a good game, I mean, and I'm guilty of this because I do think the Carolina system is just so, you know, singular in, in what it's able to, the way it's able to smother team, stifle teams. But then like he lets in one bad goal because he's seen three shots in 19 minutes and it's like this guy sucks. They're not going to win if they don't go anywhere. Like that's how we talk about those guys. It's, it's really not fair.
- [29:30]
Jesse Granger
It's not easy. And like, and like in a, in a much lower level, like I play beer league, I have my best games when I play on bad teams and face 40 shots. Like that's when I feel like I'm goaltending the best. And then I play on a good team where I face 15 shots and I, I usually don't play as well. And that's, and like that's every level of hockey all the way up. It is not a given that you're just going to play well behind a, behind a good team and it's just easy to do.
- [29:52]
Max Boltman
Absolutely.
- [29:57]
Movie Promo Announcer
You know, we love recommending new movies for you guys to watch and I'm obsessed with Regretting you. It's based on the best selling book Regretting you introducing audiences to Morgan Grant, played by Allison Williams. We love her and girls and her daughter Clara, who's played by McKenna Grace. As they explore what's left behind after a devastating accident reveals a shocking betrayal and forces them to confront family secrets, redefine love and rediscover each other. Regretting youg is a story of growth, resilience and self discovery in the aftermath of tragedy. It also stars Dave Franco and Mason Thames with Scott Eastwood and Willa Fitzgerald and it's in theaters this October. It has an all star cast based on the book written by number one New York Times best selling author Colleen Hoover. And director Josh Boone is no stranger to bringing these books to life. He's the guy behind the Fault in Our Stars. It's the perfect film to share with your best friend, your mom, your grandma, your high school niece. It's filled with love, tears and laughter, balancing comedy with romance and drama. But you know what sounds right up our alley. It'll be available in the US October 24, 2025 to watch on the big screen. See it at a theater near you.
- [31:11]
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- [31:21]
Jesse Granger
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- [31:42]
Robert Mays
Hi, this is Robert Mays from the Athletic the new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus is built to take your training to the next level. I've had a peloton for the past five years. It has completely changed the way that I work out. It's completely retrained my relationship to exercise. It's in our basement. I use it virtually every single day. I'm a huge fan of the platform. I'm a huge fan of the library of classes that are offered. I cannot recommend the program enough. If you're looking for a way to change your workout routine and really lock in to improving yourself physically Powered by Peloton iq, it plans your workouts, tracks your progress, corrects your form and gives you real time coaching so you can push harder and see real results. And with a swivel screen, you can go from running to strength training with one smooth spin, keeping your routine balanced and your body ready for anything. Let yourself run, lift, flex, push and go. Explore the new peloton cross training tread +@1peloton.com.
- [32:43]
Max Boltman
Here's a guy who has played on some rocky teams. We're going to jump down a tier here now into Tier 4, which is unproven or tandem goalies. I think a guy who has played on a rough team this the last several years in Anaheim and who is going into a very uncertain situation, we'll say in Detroit this year is John Gibson. He's seen a lot of pucks when he's played, but I think this is a guy who even 4 years ago we all would have been shocked to see in this tier. How much of a temporary stay could this be for John Gibson or is this the trajectory?
- [33:16]
Jesse Granger
The unanimous opinion on John Gibson amongst pretty much everyone I talk to is I have no idea how this is going to go because of how bad the Ducks were in front of him. We haven't seen him play meaningful games in a very long time. I do think that the Ducks were so bad that I think John Gibson started picking up bad habits because you have to cheat plays in order to make saves. Playing behind that team like you're not making your reads correctly. And when I say that like for listeners out there, like there's a two on one, you have to play the shooter as the goalie. Your defenseman has the pass, you're focused on the shooter, you're staying square to him, you're, you're maintaining your depth as if he's going to shoot a puck. But when you're John Gibson and you've played that two on one 100 times and your defenseman lets the pass through and it's a wide open backdoor goal, 90 of them, just, it's just human nature that you're going to start backing into your goal a little further. You're going to start flattening out along your goal line, preparing for that butterfly slide across. You're going to start cheating the game in order to, and that's like a very black and white situation that's like, easy to explain, but that's happening all over the ice. When the puck's at the point, he's afraid that there's a guy on the back door, there's so many reads that he's trying to make. It's, it's overcomplicated and you start cheating. And the question is, if he's been doing that as long as he's been doing it, can you just suddenly get out of those habits and become the goalie that you used to be when you were playing confidently, when you were, when you were not cheating the game when you were reading it correctly? He's a bit of an old school guy, kind of like Markstrom. He'll do like a little half butterfly when you shoot it at him. Like, you don't see that out of, out of the 20 year old goalies these days. So there are a lot of question marks and most of the opinions of these goalie coaches and retired goalies was, I can't wait to see what happens in Detroit because I have no idea what's going to happen. Like they, there is like they, they almost all left the window open for John Gibson still being a really good goalie and being the answer that Detroit is looking for in net and being the guy that can maybe help them push, get over that hump and into the playoffs again. But very few of them have that, that, that think that that is what's going to happen. They're like, that could happen, but also it could be a total disaster. It's, it's going to be super interesting. He's, he was one of the most, he, he is the probably the most puzzling goalie of the 38 that, that I pulled these panelists about.
- [35:34]
Max Boltman
And part of the reason that he's so puzzling is he's 32. Like, like he seems like he's 37. For how long he's been a fixture of like the top echelon of goaltending. And then the arc he's had, you know, you would think that it was like, oh, he hit a cliff at like 31, 32. No, that happened at 27 because the Ducks got bad and 32 year old goalies are still really good. I don't think anyone's afraid to have.
- [35:55]
Jesse Granger
A 32 year old goalie, 100%. And when he's at his. I mean, we saw last year when the Ducks got a little better defensively. Now he was. The injuries are a problem. It seemed like he couldn't go two starts without getting an injury last year. But when he was on the ice, he looked very good. Like that was the best he's looked in probably five years. So maybe he's got it. I'm as, as just a goalie fan and someone who's been begging to save John Gibson from Anaheim for years, I am pumped to see how he plays in Detroit this year.
- [36:23]
Max Boltman
All right, so you have a really strong track record on our athletic hockey show of making some calls on goalies that have worked out just exceptionally well. So no pressure here, but a lot of pressure. Pull out the crystal ball. Give me two goalies on your list who will be at least one tier higher the next time you do this exercise.
- [36:42]
Jesse Granger
Well, we just talked about how bad the Ducks have been and we saw a guy come in and he wasn't expected to be a starter even in training camp. And then John Gibson has the emergency appendectomine. They throw Lukas Dostahl in there. He's been in the NHL, but he's been a backup with limited opportunity. He suddenly is thrust into that number one role and just succeeded from the get go and played well, played better than John Gibson has behind this bad team for several years and just came in and like, I think he had the highest goal saved above expected of any goalie to play behind the team that allowed the most expected goals in the league, like in forever. Very, very impressive debut as a number one goalie for Doe Stahl. And if it hadn't just been for that, like, basically the only thing holding him back from being in Tier 1 or Tier 2 is the fact that he's only done it once and there's always some hesitation. But when you talk to these goalie coaches, they all say, like the film says that this is not a fluke. Like we see it all the time where a goalie comes in the league. They have an amazing season and then they just disappear. They're a one hit wonder. They just were feeling it that year. Teams start to get film on them. They. They find ways to beat them and all of a sudden they, they, they're not good anymore. These goalie coaches all told me the film says this is he's here to stay. He reads the game incredibly well. He's super patient on his edges. He's not biting on fakes. You watch him especially like when you get a save Doe Stall makes. When you get the camera from behind the net. You really see how he's predicting these passes. Like the, the shooter opens their stick to pass it and he's already at the spot that the guy's going to get the puck at, just waiting. He's basically standing there waiting for the puck to get there so they can fire it at him. His reads are super, super impressive. I think he's going to another big year if Quinnville can get the Ducks playing a little more structured, make it a little easier to read. We were talking about how tough it is to read for Gibson. If they make it a little easier on those Stall, he's going to be even better. Several people told me they think he can be like a top five goalie in the NHL for the rest of his career. He might even win some Vezinas if the Ducks ever get a good defense in front of him. So Doe Stahl is first on the list. And second on the list is a guy in Columbus who I know the Blue Jackets fans are excited about. I have been yelling this guy's name from rooftops for two seasons now. I've been saying how are the Blue Jackets not getting Jet Grieves in the NHL like this? The, the, the Blue Jackets are obviously struggling with Elvis Mers Leakins. That contract hasn't worked out. Daniel Tarasov hadn't panned out either. And Jet Grieves would come up for a game or two and every time he did, he looks spectacular. A lot of the same attributes that I talked about. Dustin Wolfe, he's a little undersized, but he's super athletic. He's twitchy, he's quick, he's got great edges. He is built for the fast NHL in 2025 and I'm super excited. Like when they traded Taras off to Florida, I what made what I thought was a hot take at the time, I was like by the end of the season, I think Jet Greaves is the number one goalie. I think he takes Elvis Mers Leakin's job. I think he might have already done it. The season hasn't even started and Jet Greaves might be the number one goalie for the Blue Jackets. They're certainly going to give him every opportunity to prove that he's the guy. Wouldn't surprise me. Like I, I bet there are hockey fans out there that don't even know Jet Greaves exists because he hasn't had that many opportunities in the NHL. By the end of the season, that number will be zero. Everyone who watches hockey will know Jet Grieves name. I think he's going to have a big year.
- [39:53]
Max Boltman
All right, so Greaves right now for those who have not yet read the article, which you should Jeffrey's number 33. He's in that tier four unproven or tandem goalies. So that would be him potentially moving up into tier three. And Dostal that's why I think do Styles, an interesting call for you. He's already really high on this list. He's tied for 12th. He's right up against the ceiling of tier three. So that would put him into that number two tier which is called the high level starter tier. I like both calls.
- [40:19]
Jesse Granger
Those are really good. Jesse. Yeah, do stall like I, I genuinely think in a year from now you could be thinking of him in the same vein as Ottinger Sorokin, like the, the studs that we think of like the top goalies in the league. I think Doe Stahl has that potential.
- [40:32]
Max Boltman
All right, great stuff from Jesse. If you haven't read the story yet, go do it. 20, 25, 26 NHL goalie tiers. Really good stuff in there. Thanks for listening to us today and thanks for joining us Jesse.
- [40:47]
Movie Promo Announcer
You know we love recommending new movies for you guys to watch and I'm obsessed with Regretting you. It's based on the best selling book Regretting youg introducing audiences to Morgan Grant, played by Allison Williams. We love her and girls and her daughter Clara, who's played by McKenna Grace as they explore what's left behind after a devastating accident, reveals a shocking betrayal and forces them to confront family secrets, redefine love and rediscover each other. Regretting you is a story of growth, resilience and self discovery in the aftermath of tragedy. It also stars Dave Franco and Mason Thames with Scott Eastwood and Willa Fitzgerald and it's in theaters this October. It has an all star cast based on the book written by number one New York Times bestselling author Colleen Hoover and director Josh Boone is no stranger to bringing these books to life. He's the guy behind the Fault in Our Stars. It's the perfect film to share with your best friend, your mom, your grandma, your high school niece. It's filled with love, tears and laughter, balancing comedy with romance and drama. But you know what sounds right up our alley? It'll be available in the US October 24, 2025. To watch on the big screen, See it at a theater near you.
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Max Boltman
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Jesse Granger
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Max Boltman
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- [42:17]
Robert Mays
Hi, this is Robert Mays from the Athletic the new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus is built to take your training to the next level. I've had a peloton for the past five years. It has completely changed the way that I work out. It's completely retrained my relationship to exercise. It's in our basement. I use it virtually every single day. I'm a huge fan of the platform. I'm a huge fan of the library of classes that are offered. I cannot recommend the program enough. If you're looking for a way to change your workout routine and really lock in to improving yourself physically. Powered by Peloton iq, it's it plans your workouts, tracks your progress, corrects your form and gives you real time coaching so you can push harder and see real results. And with a swivel screen, you can go from running to strength training with one smooth spin, keeping your routine balanced and your body ready for anything. Let yourself run, lift, flex, push and go. Explore the new peloton cross training tread +@1peloton.com.