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- [00:00]
Commercial Announcer
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Scott Wheeler
You too.
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- [01:04]
Max Bultman
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Chris Peters
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Corey Pronman
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Max Bultman
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- [01:47]
Chris Peters
This is the athletic hockey show prospect series.
- [02:01]
Max Bultman
Hey everybody. Max Boltman here alongside the Athletics Cory Promman and Scott Wheeler in Flow Hockey Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Lot to get to today. We're going to be talking about the defense class in this 2026 NHL Draft. We're going to be doing a mailbag. A long overdue mailbag. Sorry we waited so long on that. But first I want to start Corey, you've got a new mock draft and a new ranking out this week and I want to just start with the with the ranking here because you've got a tier at five at the top.
- [02:27]
Corey Pronman
Give us a little bit of a
- [02:28]
Max Bultman
high level overview on how you view the very top of this draft class.
- [02:34]
Corey Pronman
I think my opinion of the top is kind of similar to what a lot of people I talk to in the league is that I think there's a really tight cluster at the top. And because of that, you could put these players in a variety of orders. I think most teams still have some combination of a defenseman, which defenseman, it could vary. The center Caleb Malhotra from Branford and the two wingers in Gavin McKenna and Ivers Denberg in one of their top groups. But there could be two defensemen in there, there could be three defensemen, some have four defensemen. And so I think it creates a lot of interesting debate. I think you're going to see a lot of variety from list to list. Like I've seen we've done a lot of mock drafts recently where we have Stenberg falling to four for Chicago, for example. And I've seen that generates a lot of outrage. Like that's, that's where the league, I think, views this draft right now is I think there's going to be a lot of teams coming out of meetings that have Stenberg 3, 4, 5, 6 on their list. There's going to be a lot of teams coming out. They're going to have read at 2 or read at 5 or 6, like that's, they're going to have Malhotra at 2 or, or maybe like 3 or 1. And some are going to have them closer to 6 or 7. That's kind of how the draft, I think is right now. It's a very tight cluster of names. I've analogized it to the Owen Power draft. I think there's a lot of similarities there and similarities in how I've struggled with this draft. You know, people have, we've mocked, we've mocked or like teased me for the variety of names I've had number one over the course of the year. Although this is the same. I have Reed still one like I did a month ago. But there have been times when I've watched Malhotra here in the postseason. I flirted with the idea of getting him to one when I saw Smits in the Olympics and at times in Del playoffs. Albert Smith from the Latvian, defensive from Munich. I debated getting him up to one. It's just been that kind of draft for me. And so I think it's going to create a really interesting dynamic and I think it creates a, you know, some uncertainty in this draft going forward. Is that it could kind of unfold in a bunch of different ways over the next couple of years.
- [04:43]
Max Bultman
It's interesting because I felt like when we talked about the draft last week, though, we all still kind of felt, this is Gavin McKenna at number one, most likely. Even though you have him ultimately on these rankings at 4, you still feel that way.
- [04:56]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think that's kind of the consensus view I get is that I feel like most evaluators still have about one. I don't feel they have mount one with a bullet, though. I think that's. There's some uncertainty there. I think if you were betting on who the Toronto Maple is, are going to select at one, that's the guy I would bet right now. I wouldn't bet my house, though. I think, you know, there's going to be a lot of really good conversations. And I think kind of what we discussed last week is, I think it all comes down to the exact evaluation is we all think Gavin McKenna is an excellent hockey prospect. We all think Ivar Stenberg's a nickel and hockey prospect. Then it comes down to how do these. Compare these players, compare some of these defensemen to Caleb Houtrakers, where's the lines? How close is it? And then you get into the discussion of premium positions and ultimately what you want to acquire in the draft. I think the McKenna debate, I think, comes down to. I think most people would agree, and I think we would all agree he's the most talented player in this draft. The mo. If there's one player I think we all think is going to hit 100 points among this forward group, it's going to be him. Like, this is. This is the guy. Like, he's got some special skill, special offensive instincts. And I think that's why, you know, when you pick out one you want. I think I have a special feeling on a player, and I think he gives you that special feeling. But there are some concerns there that I think could open a door for him not going one as well. I do not think this is a foregone conclusion.
- [06:27]
Scott Wheeler
Did you have Corey Arty, Lev Shunov ahead of Ivan Demidov?
- [06:32]
Corey Pronman
I did, yeah. I didn't like Demidovs. Well, Deov was a strange one because, like, I didn't get an official measurement of him until basically the week before.
- [06:42]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [06:43]
Corey Pronman
And then by then, I elevated him to that same grouping, essentially. So, yeah, he was. He was 6:1 by the end of there, too, kind of things. That was a little bit of a distinction. But, yeah, no, I think that's A, it's a good conversation about, you know, those two players versus the defenseman is are they just so skilled? I think that's more, I think I more might have overrated Lev Shunov than underrated Demidov. But I think there's a, that could be a combination of things because when
- [07:16]
Scott Wheeler
I like when your list came out today, I was a happy for this podcast and for our debate pieces coming up because we actually a year after we struggled to find any debates between our two lists. There's a lot this year. But B that was where my like I think you inherit and I know you've said that all five of them are close for you that you still have to rank them. I think you inherit a lot of risk. Like you better be sure that those 3D are all studs. And I we've talked about on the pod. I haven't been able to get there in terms of that confidence level. Like those guys better be first pairing guys if you believe that Stenberg and McKenna can become point per game wingers. So that's, that's kind of.
- [07:58]
Corey Pronman
And I think are you worried about that? Well, I have worse than all five. I have words on all five of those players. I don't think any of them are like anywhere close to where Schaefer was a year ago. You know, you look at the last, the last two times Schaefer and McKenna played on the same team was the World Juniors a year ago and the Helinka Gretzky 16 months ago. And Schaefer is one of the youngest players in this draft class. McKenna is one of the oldest. So they were only like two or three months apart and, and like they weren't even close in terms of the impact they had on a game in those both of those events. So like I think there's that, I think there's those are five excellent prospects and I think you can get Carl's in there, you can get Malhotra in there. That group could be six, seven deep for me, quite honestly. Like those are like those are all really excellent prospects but they all have flaws. Carl's and Malhotra, there's. I think you have some offense concerns there. I think same thing with, you know, Smiths. You're wondering how high end in Verhoff 2, how high end the offense ultimately is going to be Read you wonder about the defending but Ken and Stenberg, I think you wonder, you know, not elite skaters for that size. Like how does it translate? You know, are they going to be really good players, just great or great players. Like, I don't think they're for sure top point per game players. I think that's what they project as. But I think, you know, if reed is a 50 point or a, you know, defenseman who can run a power play and plays 22 minutes a night, would you rather that or an 80 point winger?
- [09:30]
Scott Wheeler
The, the 80 point winger. My thing is that you're counting on all your count, even if it's, even if that feels close. You're counting on all three of those guys becoming that like all three of those guys need to become 50 point guys.
- [09:42]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. Would you rather have had Aaron Ekblad's career or would you rather have had
- [09:47]
Scott Wheeler
Panarin's career Panarins without even thinking twice?
- [09:55]
Max Bultman
It's interesting because Panarin has the individual accolades, Ekblad has the two Stanley Cups and it's, it's team awards. But Eckblad did play huge, huge roles for the Panthers.
- [10:05]
Scott Wheeler
Ekblad was what, in terms of usage on that team, the. Their number three defenseman.
- [10:10]
Max Bultman
I can pull his minutes up if you give me a second here. After forceling and in the, in the two playoff runs, Ekblad averaged 22, 33 and 24. So if there was two guys ahead of him that would shock me.
- [10:23]
Corey Pronman
Jones would have been ahead of him in this.
- [10:24]
Chris Peters
Jones was for sure. Yeah. I had a 24.
- [10:28]
Corey Pronman
Well, yeah. And Jones is who I have as Reed's comp right now, for what it's worth.
- [10:34]
Max Bultman
Jones was ahead of him. Jones was 25, 30. Ekblab was 24 last year and Forsling was 2317.
- [10:41]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, but that I think that's like, and it comes down to the McKenna, like Stenberg debate too. Right? Like, I think Stenberg's comp is Gensel And I think McKenna's the comp is Panarin. Who would you rather have had in their career? Gensel or Panarin?
- [10:57]
Max Bultman
I think there you're probably leaning Panarin.
- [11:01]
Scott Wheeler
It's close.
- [11:04]
Corey Pronman
Stanley Cups. You can make the same argument.
- [11:06]
Max Bultman
You can make the same argument. But, and granted, you can do this for, for Eckblad too.
- [11:10]
Corey Pronman
I mean, over again and, and over Genel in this conversation in that, in that way too kind of thing. But I, I think I, I think it's, I think where the, the distinction is is not that I think that's, I disagree with Scott. I guess I think you could make very reasonable arguments to take Panera's career over Eck BL's career for just a significant differential in Offense and the power play impact and the star st. You know, and this in the, you know, top 10 scoring in some times. But I think the distinction is how close it is. Is it close enough to warrant a discussion? I feel like. I don't want to be putting words in your mouth, Scott. It feels like you don't think it's close enough to warrant a discussion.
- [11:50]
Scott Wheeler
I think it warrants a discussion. I just think you, there's real risk that you've, that you've put too much emphasis into the positional side of it if Gavin and Stenberg both hit. Because I think odds are that all three of those defensemen aren't all going to hit. If you're really confident in those three. But it doesn't even sound like you're confident in like really confident in those 3D.
- [12:16]
Corey Pronman
No, but I, I mean I think they're, they're high, high end defense prospects.
- [12:20]
Chris Peters
I think is, is the question though, like, is the risk tied to the expectation of what McKenna is in the public's eye?
- [12:29]
Corey Pronman
I don't know what that means by that.
- [12:31]
Chris Peters
So, so like in terms of the pressure to select the player that has been the most talked about, like, you know, in terms of like when Montreal didn't take Shane, right. It was viewed as, oh, they're, they're, they're taking a risk here with the bigger winger because they're not taking the guy that everybody thought was going to be the number one guy. And so my, like, like that's the thing is like the risk. When you do the risk assessment. Because I know that even in NHL cert, you know, like in the, when they're having these discussions, they are talking about the public perception. They are talking about like, what happens if we screw this up. And we were, we were trying to be outsmart everybody and we actually didn't.
- [13:16]
Corey Pronman
Well, I'm not putting myself in John Chaika's shoes and the management of the Toronto Maple Leafs. I'm just telling you guys what I think the groupings are in terms of talent for this draft. What Toronto wants to do with the, with in their position is.
- [13:27]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [13:28]
Corey Pronman
Is, is their decision.
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Chris Peters
Well, my question was more directed at Scott though, in terms of, of like the risk assessment. Like, do you feel like there's less risk in McKenna?
- [13:38]
Scott Wheeler
I don't think you have to calculate the public perception into that risk necessarily. Like, I don't. I haven't considered that in my list ultimately. I mean, I've been very, very critical of Gavin and his flaws and the playoff, the puck and the detail and the laziness and all of that is still very much conversation with Gavin but he has still like I think we've, I think we've gotten to the point and Gavin and Shane Wright are, are not even close as prospects for me but I think, but I think we've gotten to the point where we've picked Gavin apart to pieces and lost sight of what this kid has accomplished in the WHL in college hockey. Even Corey going back to his those two Hockey Canada events. Well the third Hockey Canada event before that he was better than Porter Martone as an underager at U Worlds and led the team metal and scored a hat trick in the gold a natural hatrick in the third period of the gold medal game. Like I, I, we have to remember all of this with Gavin and I think it's become, it's super popular amongst scouts, amongst agents, amongst people around college hockey that I've talked to to really beat up on this kid and some of it is warranted but Gavin is still a premier premier talent. Like I don't think this from a skill standpoint. This is a player that actually comes with all that much risk. I think the risk is in how much of a negative he's going to be defensively. That's what you calculate into it. I'm less worried about Gavin in terms of the offense, the power. Like that's, I think that ship has sailed. He has produced in line with players who and you can see it in the playmaking, the vision, the skill level, the touch on the puck. The way he thinks it like that is there are premium, premium tools there still even if you hate the off
- [15:31]
Corey Pronman
puck game, you say he's not close to Shane Wright. Is that not like a little revisionist? Like didn't you have right one on your list? Do you think there was like that big a distinction from the two at the same point?
- [15:42]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, I had, I had right cooley nemet12123 on my list. I also don't think he's any of those players are cool. Like I, I think he's a way better prospect than Slafkovsky was a better prospect than Cooley was a better prospect than Wright was a better prospect than Nemetch. I missed on Shane Wright at one like that's, I missed on that.
- [16:05]
Corey Pronman
But is he way better, way better than Cooley? Like that's, that's a, that's a, that's a. I think Cooley's become a one hell of a hockey.
- [16:12]
Max Bultman
He's saying at the time of the draft.
- [16:13]
Corey Pronman
He's saying at the time of the draft. Okay.
- [16:15]
Chris Peters
Okay.
- [16:15]
Scott Wheeler
Yes.
- [16:16]
Corey Pronman
Yeah.
- [16:16]
Max Bultman
I, I think what, like just to kind of put a bow on this. I think what, what it comes out from what I'm hearing, Corey, is to me it sounds like you're hesitance kind of comes down to when you have these in most cases, like kind of big body defensemen who feel like you have a pretty high floor. It's kind of a downside argument. Right. Like I know you've used the name Druanne as a downside risk comparable for, for McKenna and if it's Druanne or kind of your average. Right. Or.
- [16:42]
Corey Pronman
Well that's.
- [16:43]
Max Bultman
It's dreamed.
- [16:44]
Scott Wheeler
It's not even close. It is not even close. Neil Yakopov and Gavin McKenna, let's say
- [16:50]
Max Bultman
Drew in but like, like drew in or just kind of your aver top four right shot.
- [16:54]
Chris Peters
I mean Duran was the best player.
- [16:57]
Max Bultman
That's right. So let's use that one. If it's Drew an or kind of your average top four right shot D, what's the value discrepancy there? That seems like the most compelling argument against McKenna to me.
- [17:08]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. And I also think even in the best case, like I think if McKenna is like an 80, 90 point wing as or Stenberg's like this 70, 80 point hard to play against wing and Smith becomes Cider, like I think that's,
- [17:22]
Max Bultman
that's extreme upside for. At that point you're taking upside for Smiths and not ups. I guess you gotta take an upside for me.
- [17:29]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. But I don't know like, is it that outrageous? You look at what Smiths has done this year, look at what Cider did in his draft year. Like it's, there's a lot of analogies you can make. I think Smith's is not as physical. He's a little smaller, might have a little bit more offense at the same age than Cider did. But I think like that's like, I feel like if you can get like a 50, 45 point defenseman who plays heavy minutes, like I feel like that's a massive piece and I feel like if you were in the Maple Leafs position and this is going to come up Malhotra. I actually get more people in the league who say they think Malhotra is going could go one than they do any of these defensemen. For what it's worth, I think there's excessive interest in this player and there's a lot of people who are advocating for him at the top. But like the argument will come down to in the off season, what would Toronto have a harder time finding? Would they have a harder time finding a guy that Malhotra or like a guy likes like Chase Reed or Smith, or they have a harder time finding someone like Ivor Stenberg? And I think, you know, you're, you know, I guess your opinion of Darren Radish and Rasmus Anderson may vary, but I would, I would probably argue you looked at last off season where Marner and Elias hit free agency, where Panarin just got traded. I feel like people would argue that's the easier piece to find. But it all comes down to how close it is. And I keep saying this over and over again. People probably think I'm just beating, beating a dead horse here. But if you don't think it's close, take the winger. No issues. I have wingers ahead of centers ahead. You know, like eventually you have, you get. It gets to a point where you got to take the better player. But as I said in the intro to the column, I think it's basically a five way tie between the five players I have and then those six, seven players I have are nearly. It makes it a near seven way tie, honestly for me.
- [19:12]
Scott Wheeler
So I felt it was a four way tie in the right draft though. And at the end of the day, right was still 1 on my list. And you have to.
- [19:18]
Corey Pronman
Yep.
- [19:18]
Scott Wheeler
Like you have to live with.
- [19:19]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I'm living.
- [19:21]
Scott Wheeler
Nobody remembers that. I thought that Logan Cooley and Shane Wright were neck and neck or that Simon.
- [19:27]
Max Bultman
No, but I, I think what Corey's saying is like, don't take this to mean he's so down on McKenna and Stenberg. He's saying it's one big group and if, if. Yeah, if you don't have it as one big group, you obviously take the guys you have above that group. I think that's, that's what, that's the point. Yeah.
- [19:39]
Chris Peters
You know, you know what I've been hearing this whole time, we don't have a number one pick in this draft, which I said in January. And I think that that is, I think that is what a great year, Toronto fans, to have a number one pick. Because, because quite frankly, like, I think a lot of these guys are very good prospects. They're all very good prospects. There is not a single one in this whole group, including McKenna, that I feel great about. You know, and that's, and that's, and that's a hard place to be when you are picking one because I think there are guys that you can talk yourselves, that you talk yourself into enough and you're going to feel fine. But this, this class is. The challenge of this class is that there is mud everywhere. There is absolute mud in. That decreases the clarity of where these guys are going to end up.
- [20:27]
Corey Pronman
Would anybody here go back to the 23 draft and take any of these players at this current point to Fantilli or Leo Carlton at the same point in their draft seasons?
- [20:39]
Max Bultman
No,
- [20:42]
Chris Peters
I don't think so.
- [20:44]
Max Bultman
Produced virtually identically, if not better than McKenna and is like a six two powerful center.
- [20:50]
Chris Peters
Yeah. Yeah.
- [20:51]
Corey Pronman
He produced Scott struck. I can, I can see Scott's face. He's struggling with this question right now.
- [20:55]
Scott Wheeler
I. I'd probably have them in the same tier. I'm not sure how I would have them slotted, but I would probably have Stenberg and McKenna at least in the same tier as those two kids.
- [21:04]
Max Bultman
As Carlson too.
- [21:05]
Scott Wheeler
As Carlson at the time of the draft and Fantilly at the time of the draft.
- [21:08]
Chris Peters
Yeah, the time of the draft was different.
- [21:10]
Scott Wheeler
Stenberg also had. I know, obviously I wrote this in my mailbag that you'd still take Carlson over Stenberg a couple of weeks ago because of the size and the skating and the position. Stenberg had a more. Had a better draft year at the World Juniors and with the senior men's team. Based off what we've seen so far and in the SHL then than wheel
- [21:29]
Max Bultman
different level of hockey. I mean, Stenberg's skill computer are outstanding. Carlson's like a different level of hockey sense. Fair to say.
- [21:35]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah. And he's six three and yeah.
- [21:36]
Chris Peters
Place seven.
- [21:37]
Max Bultman
But all that.
- [21:38]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, I think just, just the, just by starting from the place of. If you think it's close, take the D. I do think that people talk themselves into taking D is. Is sort of the point I was trying to make. Like it's the same reason you rank already Web Shunov ahead of Ivan Demidov and then three years later, it's no longer close. Right. So that's. I guess that's. That's where I started this conversation. That's the point I'm trying to hammer home.
- [22:02]
Max Bultman
Let's put a pin in the D because we're going to come back to that next segment. We're going to do a whole dive on the D in this class. One more name. Corey. I just. I want to get on your new rankings and your new mock draft is Ethan Belches, a guy who earlier this year we were talking about toward the very top of this draft in your latest ranking he's at number 13. That's lower than, I mean I know he didn't play late in the year because of the injury, but that's lower than I expected to see him.
- [22:24]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, and he had kind of an up and down season more towards second half before he got hurt. He was big, he was being productive and being a really important part of Windsor winning a lot of games. He had some tough stretches there. Didn't have a great holy Congress in the summer. Didn't have a great CHL NTDP series in November. I think there were some concerns on, I mean there's always been a little bit of concerns on his pace, but I still thought you, you still saw a really skilled, big, powerful, physical winger. I think as the season went on, I think there were some questions on just how high end is the skill here now. I think in six months ago people thought yeah, there's a little bit of warts here but man, like he's got a lot of skill and he's so big and like it's still a premium, premium piece. I think that's going to be what people are going to wrestle with is a good, you know, is a good skill. Is it top six skill. I think that's, you know, I, I, I think when you not to be lazy but because he played on the same OHL team but I think it's gonna, you can compare him to like the pro to Ilya producer Alexei Protus. Ilya pros played on Windsor. Not, not Alexei but and probably say that he's not as skilled as Ilya but he probably has a little bit more jam in his game and that's still a pretty good prospect. Is it an elite prospect? Probably not, but that's kind of where I think he fits. The other thing I think that hurts him is a little bit is you have these other players like Gleb Pukachev in Russia and particularly Oscar Hemming in college who have kind of emerged as these big physical power wingers over the course of the season. And I think for teams that will prioritize those traits, I think it gives them some more choices in that range of the draft as well.
- [24:14]
Max Bultman
I think what surprised me is like it's, it's now getting to the area where it's like where Brandsign and Carter Bear went and you know, certainly those are good prospects. But I think Belches has more offense and more size than both. Maybe not, maybe not more offenses Bear,
- [24:29]
Corey Pronman
but yeah, not, not as good a skater as them though. I think his skating is going to be an issue for some people.
- [24:34]
Max Bultman
Yeah, that's fair.
- [24:35]
Scott Wheeler
Do you think? I do think Bears skating is a
- [24:37]
Chris Peters
bit of an issue, too, but, yeah, and he's, he's. He's a guy, though, like, Belcherts is one of those guys where I could easily see. See a team snapping him up earlier than, you know, the teens or, you know, like. Yeah, in that. In that 10 to 15 range, you know, closer to 10. But, yeah, but he's, He's, He's a tough. He was a tough eval this year, too, because I think last year we saw some more of that aggression and just more of that nastiness. And this year I felt like he played with less of that and played almost more into the skill game, and I felt like he lost his identity a little bit as a player. Like, he was not a factor in that NTDP challenge at all. And that was a game where you say there's going to be some snarl, there's going to be some nastiness. He's going to thrive in that environment. And, yeah, both he and Rubrek could barely get on the ice in that game. Two big guys. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's. He's an interesting one for this class, for sure.
- [25:35]
Corey Pronman
To Chris's point, I have still talked to teams that have him in the 6 to 10 range. I don't think that. I think that was, like, a unanimous opinion four months ago. I don't think it's unanimous anymore, but I still think that he's being discussed in that area.
- [25:47]
Max Bultman
All right, let's take a quick break right there. We're going to come back. We're going to talk about the D class this year in the first round. Be right back.
- [25:55]
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- [26:02]
Chris Peters
No contracts, no hikes, and you keep your phone.
- [26:04]
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- [26:12]
Chris Peters
lost, and kickoff's coming up.
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Max Bultman
Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree at this here road. Nah, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out.
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Max Bultman
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- [27:10]
Corey Pronman
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- [27:39]
Corey Pronman
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- [27:45]
Max Bultman
all right, we are back and we're going to talk about the what I think is the strength of this class, Corey, and that's that's the D crop all cycle. I feel like we've talked about this as a cluster of five guys at the top between Keaton Verhoff, Chase Reed, Albert, Smith, Dax and Rudolph and Carson Carls. I see where you've mocked Malte Gustafson and ranked multi Gustafson this week though. Is this now becoming a cluster of six names at the top?
- [28:09]
Corey Pronman
Yes, I think after his performance at the U18 Worlds where I think you could argue he was the best defenseman there. I think in the game against Canada he was clearly better than Keaton Werhoff in that game. I think he is now in that conversation. I think for a lot of people they see now a 6.4mobile two way defenseman. The offense this season in Sweden wasn't great. He played on some bad teams. I think both his SHL team and his J20 team were both sent to the relegation round. You can argue whether he should have helped those teams more or whatever. But, but, but that's a legit argument. But when he what he showed at the U18s, I think swayed a lot of people and swayed me that I think. I don't think this is a power play guy in the NHL, but I think you look at this guy and you compare him whether it is to someone like, you know something of other Swedish defensemen. Be someone like Simon Edmondson at the same Age or, you know, you know, you know, some Philip Broberg maybe. Like, I don't think he's. There's some distinctions there between them, but like, he's not quite as fast as Brober. He's not quite as skilled or as big as Edmondson, But I think 6 to 10, 6 to 12, I think he's going to fit into that area. Just the, the athleticism he has, the minutes he showed he could play the, that he could make a play with the puck. I think he definitely is now in that conversation if you want that flavor of defenseman.
- [29:34]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I agree with that. Like, you know, he's. He's a guy that really popped in that tournament and I think have. It's one of those times where the under 18s where you get to see a couple of guys in the same. On the same ice surface together and you see the differences. And I agree, like, he was better than Verhoff in that game. And you know, the thing that I'll say, like, I still think that he would be at the, the very back end of that, you know, that group for me. But, but at the same time, the fact that he's probably moved ahead of the guys like the Belched and others of that are moving down the board as a result, you know, I think there's, there's every reason to believe that, that he could, you know, sneak up there and, you know, could he potentially go ahead of Viggo Bjork is. There are things like, you know, those kinds of things. I could see that happening. I think there's, you know, the size, the mobility. You know, the thing that stood out to me at the under 18s is he played. I thought he played most like a man compared to his peers and, and there was a real almost swagger to how he was playing level. And I didn't see that from a lot of, you know, the other top, top end guys from that. In that tournament.
- [30:47]
Corey Pronman
By the end of the tournament there, like, he was on the ice every second shift. Like, you go to the Polinka where Axel Olafson was actually their leader in ice time. On that team that went to the gold medal game, Elofson was their number seven. Yeah, he played eight minutes in the gold medal game. And they just kept rolling. They just kept rolling. Gustafson and Mans Goodmanson pretty much every second shift, like key they. There was the utmost trust in him where it felt like the rest of that blue line did not have anywhere close to that level of trust.
- [31:18]
Max Bultman
Corey said something interesting, Scott, about how you know Gus, he's not gonna be like the power play guy. It kind of makes me think so. Let's kind of for people who are checking into the draft now it's draft season. Let's kind of typecast that the profiles of these top 6D here. So every team might be looking for a different thing in the defenseman they're targeting at the top of the draft who fits in what bucket Scott Reed is.
- [31:38]
Scott Wheeler
Reed is the premium offensive guy despite the fact that his production never got to that like Ryan Ellis, Zane Parek level in the ohl. Reed is the premium offensive skating big shot move moves the puck transporter. That's, that's Reed's game. The defending for Reed has actually come a long way and I've spoken to a lot of people around the OHL about that. He earned a lot of respect this year and he was second amongst his conference and defensive defenders in the OHL coaches poll. Surprised some people. Smiths, I think you're just expecting him to be a sort of all situations type Carl. Same thing. All situations type Carl's has the hardness, the skating, the competitiveness also has the shot. Rudolph I think will be more despite the fact that he's playing huge minutes in the, in the whl I think will be more of an offensive lean guy than a sort of true shutdown guy doesn't have maybe that, that, that hardness that, that a Smiths or Carl's can have. Gustafson's a two way type. I don't again I think the Broberg is more apt than the Edmonton. Like Edmondson broke some ankles in his in his draft year in the SHL that season and made some, some like high level skill plays. I haven't quite seen that from, from Malte.
- [32:58]
Corey Pronman
I'll spend skin not shl yes in
- [33:01]
Scott Wheeler
Al Svenskin but he, he, he's, he's the two way, the two way profile. Like I don't think he's going to be a premium, premium guy on whatever team he ends up but he's, he's the sort of top four projection.
- [33:16]
Max Bultman
Corey, any disagreements with kind of those buckets or distinctions?
- [33:19]
Scott Wheeler
I didn't mention Verhoff. Yeah, I, I, I still don't know where what box Verhoff fits into if I'm being completely honest.
- [33:28]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think like Verhoff and Smiths are like the athlete bucket where like they just have so many tools. The, the size, the skating, the skill.
- [33:37]
Scott Wheeler
Corey and I have a big, big gap on the skating with Bearhoff. I do not see him as an athletic skater at all.
- [33:43]
Corey Pronman
Interesting. Okay. Yeah. That's kind of how I view the buckets there. Like, I think him and Smiths just have like the tools. Like they're just so toolsy and talented and you know, great body of work. I think there's, they are not like I think with Carl's you could hang your hat on. He's the toughest to play against among this group. With Reed and Rudolph you can hang your head on like they might be have like high, high end skill. I think other than their shots. I don't know if Verhoff and Smith have like high, high end traits, but I think the collection of traits are really impressive and it's, it's a fascinating debate because I think throughout the season I can talk to a bunch of people in the league and have, who have a different person at one. I think I have talked to pretty much everybody at some point, at least one scout and usually multiple that I've had Smith, Rudolph, Fairhoff, Carls or Reed as their best defenseman in this draft. I have talked to teams that have had Carl's, Reed, Smiths and Verhoff at some point in the season at number one overall on their list at some point this season. Like, it's a really fascinating conversation. Which gets to our previous segment which is this is kind of a bucket and when it's a bucket, how you break ties and how you delineate could make for things that might seem strange to some but not strange to others. So I think it'll be, you know, I think you're going to see teams come out of the meetings and they're going to have, they might have things in a sniffly different order than how we have things. Just because I think it's a, a, it's a tight group. Just, you know, but you know, that's, that's the draft.
- [35:25]
Max Bultman
Well, that's interesting to me when I hear that, when I hear that there's been four different guys. Is it four different guys you said have been ranked number one by at least some team at some point in this class?
- [35:33]
Corey Pronman
Yes.
- [35:34]
Max Bultman
So like when I hear that I think, okay, so are there four number one potential number one defensemen in this class? Like that would be a little bit anomalous. It has happened before, but it would be a little anomalous.
- [35:45]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, but you know, so go back to the power draft. Is power number one defenseman right now?
- [35:50]
Max Bultman
I wouldn't say so.
- [35:51]
Corey Pronman
Is Evanson number one defenseman?
- [35:53]
Max Bultman
No, he's a two.
- [35:55]
Corey Pronman
Is Benier's Number one center?
- [35:58]
Max Bultman
No, probably Fringy, but more of a two.
- [35:59]
Chris Peters
Not. Nah, not on a good team.
- [36:01]
Corey Pronman
Is Luke Hughes Number one defenseman?
- [36:03]
Max Bultman
No.
- [36:03]
Scott Wheeler
No.
- [36:05]
Corey Pronman
Mace McTavish Number one center?
- [36:06]
Max Bultman
No, I get your point here. I see where you're going.
- [36:11]
Corey Pronman
Is Brant Clark anywhere close to number one defenseman?
- [36:13]
Max Bultman
No, I get your point. I mean, I guess I'm thinking back and there are drafts. Excellent year 18 draft. And you, you get Darlene Hughes, Dobson, Bouchard. Like you're making the case that you have four number one defensemen in a draft, even though Dobson isn't the number one. Dion, Montreal. He's. I think he's that level, even if it's a little Fringy. Like, I, I guess that's what I'm asking.
- [36:33]
Chris Peters
Is it.
- [36:33]
Max Bultman
Are we at that level of class or are we talking about more of the Owen power draft?
- [36:37]
Corey Pronman
It might. It's probably somewhere between like, I think you still like a lot of these players. Like, I would like I have Reed, Smiths and Verhoff projected as top pair defensemen, you know, and I have Carl's kind of on the fringe there. So I think if you look at just the odds of how. Think of what expected outcomes are, you would think probably one of those guys are gonna underwhelm significantly. One of those guys probably comes number one and like the other two probably become like 22 to, you know, 21 minutes night guys who help a team but are not like, you know, like stars or whatever. So like, I think that's, I think the fair expectations. So probably somewhere between those two drafts,
- [37:17]
Max Bultman
there's a couple players that we were talking about early in the year that I expected to really dominate our debate come this time of year, and that was Ryan Lynn and Xavier Villeneuve. Lynn, I think we're still going to be talking plenty about. I mean, Scott, I know has him. Do you, do you have him above Gustafson, Scott?
- [37:32]
Scott Wheeler
I do.
- [37:33]
Max Bultman
Right. So. So Scott would have him closer to that top cluster, but Villeneuve, Corey has kind of fallen out of the conversation here.
- [37:40]
Chris Peters
Where.
- [37:40]
Max Bultman
Where did Villeneuve slip out of this and where are you at with. With Lynn at this point?
- [37:46]
Corey Pronman
I. I mean, you guys remember me talking to you about him nine months ago. I was like a villain of super fan coming into this season. This was such a hard evaluation for me and such a. I was so reluctant to get him to where I ended on him because I wanted to love him. Like, because he's, I would say after McKenna and Stenberg, he's probably the most purely offensively talented player in this class. Does that offend anybody here?
- [38:11]
Scott Wheeler
Not at all.
- [38:12]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, like, his skating, his skill, his offensive hockey sense. Like, he's like. Like, I see people online comparing him to Lane Hudson and I'm like, yeah, that doesn't. Like, I see where you're going with that. Like, the way he dances on the blue line and makes and like, I don't think he sees the ice like Lane does. I don't think he can hit the scene passes and like. Like, he does a little bit more individualistic, but I understand that. It's like, I think to me, it comes down to the defending and the compete. Like, he's got some significant defensive issues. Like, he really struggles to make stops at the QMJ gel level. He really doesn't ever. I think that when we saw that the CHL NTDP series, that's like one of the first times I've actually seen him play the body all season. Like, in the queue. He just doesn't do that. Like, there's, like. I think there's going to be, like, some major concerns on how he projects at NHL level. But what I was thinking about with Villanova and Lynn and maybe even Villanova and Tommy Blyle to an extent was, you know, coming out of their draft seasons, we thought we saw Seamus Casey and Lane Hudson on the ntdp. Yeah. And I don't know where you guys ended with them, but I think I had Lane like in the 20s and Casey, like around the 30s or the 40s kind of thing. But it's like, kind of like, well, one of these two are probably going to play. I don't know which one. Obviously didn't know that one was going to become a superstar. But, like. But, you know, you thought, like, there's some risks here and that's probably how it's going to be. A villain of Blyle in Moncton. I probably think, like, one of those two are going to play. You could lump in Lane with them. And I think Lynn's the likeliest to plays. I think he defends the hardest and like, he's got. There's more to his game. That's kind of how I feel like with Villanov, like, if he just played a little harder, man, I. He'd be like, top 20 on my list. Like, but like, his compete, his physicality, especially as, like, it's a scrawny 511 defenseman. Like, it's a significant concern for me.
- [40:00]
Scott Wheeler
I have had people use Seamus. Like, I've had people in the queue use Seamus Casey for Tommy Blythe. In terms of just a parallel, I was actually surprised when you had Blyle as a below average skating because skater. Because when I was flipping through.
- [40:14]
Chris Peters
Are you serious?
- [40:15]
Scott Wheeler
Because I think Bly is a phenomenal skater.
- [40:19]
Corey Pronman
Well, that was a typo. That's not how I feel.
- [40:21]
Chris Peters
So I was like, that's like the hallmark of his game.
- [40:24]
Corey Pronman
Thank you for pointing that out to me on this podcast kind of thing. So.
- [40:27]
Scott Wheeler
Oh, sorry.
- [40:32]
Chris Peters
Oh, well, yeah, that's. So that's. Yeah, that'll need to be. It'll be. Need to be fixed. But the, the thing about the other thing I'll say about Villanuev too is like I actually thought earlier in the year he played more aggressive. I thought that there was more jam and that would, that that showed up a little bit more in that CHL NTP series. So that was a, that was definitely a big, a big one for, you know, where he, where he showed a little bit more snarl compared to what you would normally see for him do. But yes, I would agree. Like he, he, he missed a chunk of the season with injury comes back and you know, it was very up and down. I mean like that, that whole Blaineville team was up and down and they had had a lot of injury issues over the course of the season.
- [41:20]
Corey Pronman
I thought he was gonna have a hundred points this season.
- [41:22]
Chris Peters
I did too.
- [41:23]
Corey Pronman
I thought he, I thought he was going to tear up that league and he just didn't like, he had a good year, but he basically like it was, it was below expectations.
- [41:31]
Chris Peters
Yeah. And the thing is, is when you take a step back from the high expectations that you set, you know, it's like the same. We'll have, you know, I don't know if we'll ever get around to it, but like, Ryan Robrecht is a guy who. It's hard to produce less in your draft year than you normally would and have positive results long term. So I think that that's the other thing that's, that's tough. But Bly is a really interesting one because he had the season that I like to me that I was expecting Villeneuve to have and was far better for the larger chunk of the season. And on top of that has been amazing in the playoffs.
- [42:12]
Corey Pronman
I can't believe he's going back to the queue next year. Like, he's like, is he? Well, that he apparently is. But like, I don't know. Like, I feel like there's got to be a better way. There's got to be a better place for him to play like then, yeah, there again like after how good he was. But maybe it's the only available. Maybe he has 60 points next year, which we're all like tearing him apart.
- [42:37]
Max Bultman
All right, two more names that I want to get to in this class. Corey, I'm gonna give you Adam Goalier and then Scott, why don't you take William Hawkinson. Corey, you go first. With goalier
- [42:47]
Corey Pronman
officially named the best defenseman the U18s. Although I wonder if there was a little home country bias there. But he was really good there. Like, you know, six one, right shot, skates well, moves the puck well, competes well. You know, this is a guy now who's, you know, was played, was a world junior player for slovakia, was good vs men in Slovakia this past season. Just checks a lot of boxes. Like he's a little boring in some ways, but like Oliver Bonk was a little boring too in some ways. And I think there's some. You can maybe connect the dots a little bit there in terms of how they are as pro prospects. Just like steady, dependable, two way, not really physical. But he works and I think coaches will trust him and I think there's a spot for him in the NHL. Even though I don't know if he's going to be like this massive offensive producer. I just think there's every time I watch him, he plays well. Is he a star? No, but he's a good player and I think he's going to be have a career in the NHL.
- [43:43]
Max Bultman
Scott, how about Hawkinson?
- [43:44]
Scott Wheeler
Hawkinson's an interesting one because he's six four and 200 plus pounds and he's played a lot of pro hockey at an early age. He's a late birthday in this draft class, which helps in terms of making that jump to the pro level a little bit earlier and that that size piece of the puzzle that he already has, it was a tough go for him. He started the year sort of splitting time between the SHL and the J20 and then he finished the year in Al Svenskin before coming back to the SHL for the playoffs. In the Al Svenskin portion of that that season, there were some tough nights. The production sort of came a little bit more, which I think people were hoping to see. But there were some tough nights defensively and he just didn't look himself and didn't play well. His stock has trended down in the second half, I think heading into the world juniors where he also didn't play a prominent role for Sweden heading into the world Juniors. He was viewed as the first round pick in this draft class and I think that's now not necessarily a sure thing. I think he still probably goes there because of the size, but big kid moves fairly well. The competitiveness and the physicality are a little bit more inconsistent than scouts would like it to be. Like he has high PIM totals and you look at his profile and you think, oh, this kid's probably mean. And I don't think that's really what he is. That's not a huge part of his identity. But he's competitive enough, he's physical enough, he's solid defensively. I don't think there's going to be a lot of offense there, but he projects to play in the league with his athletic profile.
- [45:11]
Corey Pronman
His offensive profile is interesting. I agree with you. I don't think he's like super smart. I don't think he's a puck play guy. But if you look at his underage numbers, he did point in the J20 level and when he went down there for a few, few games this year, he pointed as well. So I think there's, there's inconsistencies in his game. But it's a really intriguing profile and track record. And if you look at like making Sweden's world junior team, that wasn't a bad word. Junior team, they won gold medal. Like you look at the track record of defensemen who make that team, like they're all like top 15 picks. Like it's like there's like schmucks don't make that team as a draft eligible. So like it's, so it's. I'll be really fascinated to see how his career goes.
- [45:53]
Max Bultman
Any names that I didn't bring up, Chris to Scott and Corey there that you feel belong in the first round of this class or did we kind of, I mean we, we. I think we'll include Lyle and Villeneuve that we talked about them. But in any other name.
- [46:02]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah, no, I, I don't. Nobody that really stands out, you know, specifically to me that we didn't bring up. But yeah, I mean I think that this, this, this only further proves that. I think that the, there's. The strength of the classes is on the blue line. There's a lot. The thing that I think is great about this class is the variety that you can get out of it. You know, the different players, the different kinds of guys that can kind of fit into a bunch of different things. Which is to say I also don't think that we see like, like there's not a lot of excitement among the forwards as you get further and further down the board. So I think that, you know, we'll probably see a pretty steady chunk of defensemen go in the first round and we probably covered, you know, the most likely guys and, you know, could anybody else sneak in there? I'm not, you know, I'm sure there could be a one or two.
- [46:51]
Scott Wheeler
I do think as notable, we didn't mention Juho Pipperainen, who, coming out of Helenco last summer was viewed as like a lock first rounder. And Corey mentioned a couple of he could still go in the first round, but Corey mentioned a couple of the Diaz vanilla and I'm not sure there is a more vanilla player in this class than you hope Piperinen, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.
- [47:09]
Chris Peters
But.
- [47:11]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I know, I know Scott squirm when I mentioned Jakubov earlier, but in the Akapov draft, we had a winger go one, and then I think eight of the 10 top 10 picks in that defense in that class were defensemen. Just as an FYI. Be careful, Corey.
- [47:24]
Max Bultman
People are gonna start thinking, you think McKenna is Yakapova. You're gonna.
- [47:27]
Corey Pronman
You're gonna get it.
- [47:28]
Max Bultman
I'm actually starting that.
- [47:29]
Chris Peters
I'm starting that.
- [47:30]
Corey Pronman
No, but I will say I would challenge Scott's.
- [47:34]
Scott Wheeler
It's also one of the worst drafts in NHL history.
- [47:37]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. Yeah. I thought when I saw Yakapov that year, I thought he was like a monster. Like, he was so dominant in Sarnia those two years he was there. Like he. There was no way he was going to miss. And then obviously, you know, you know, he missed. It happens.
- [47:52]
Chris Peters
Yeah, he missed this pretty big. Yeah, there's a lot of. There's a whole lot of missing in that class.
- [47:58]
Max Bultman
All right, let's take a break right there. We're going to come back. We haven't done a mailbag, I feel like, in months, so we've got a few in there and be excited to get your thoughts. I'll be right back. Still waiting in line again. That's time you will never get back. Save time and money with stamps dot com. Over 4 million businesses have skipped the line with stamps dot com. Join them to save up to 90% off carrier rates from your computer or phone right now. Print postage for certified mail, registered mail and packages in seconds. Then schedule a pickup right from your your home or office for a limited time. Go to stamps.com and use code podcast
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Chris Peters
for a free welcome gift.
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Max Bultman
Taxes and fees apply.
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Corey Pronman
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Chris Peters
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Corey Pronman
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Corey Pronman
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Chris Peters
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Max Bultman
All right, we are back and we've got a mailbag round of mailbag questions here. Scott, we're going to start with this one from Liam Gutman. Will teams be targeting both ruck twins in this draft? And this, this was parts for me. Is there anyone that could actually pull that off? It seems like they're both kind of going to go late first, maybe a team that has some bonus picks.
- [50:09]
Scott Wheeler
I think one of them almost certainly goes second. I think there's a chance both go second. I've I've got a feature coming out on on the rucks at the Athletic in the next couple of weeks here and I have talked to them and some people around them about this. They have not been shy to tell teams that it is really what they want. Like they haven't. There's, there's something to modesty in these interviews, but they the way they thought about it was we're not going to lie and pretend like us going to a different organization is what we want. If it goes that way, they will go their separate ways. And these aren't kids who are going to put up a stink or try to force their way back together or that kind of a thing. But I think it's going to be a Big part of the combine process for them. They're going to be pretty upfront with teams that they want to make it happen. I know that college teams are all over them and that they're likely going to do visits here now that, now that Medicine Hat's out of the WHL playoffs. So they're going to continue going the college route together. I know that they haven't closed the book on Medicine Hat either. Return to Medicine Hat is very much potentially in the cards for them. Medicine Hat still actually has some really good young players that they could potentially reload around next year. But it's, it's. I think it's, I think there's a real chance that it happens and that a team makes it happen for them. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad move by that team or that team trying to pick through. If whichever team considers that, I don't think it's necessarily. We are, we're doing these kids a favor. Like there are plenty of teams. The Vancouver Canucks have the 30 have a late first round pick and the 33rd overall pick. Like there are. When I was looking at my mock draft, I think there's four or five teams with a late first and an early second. Like it's very popular, possible that someone makes that happen for them. So I, I really don't think it's out of the question that they end up together.
- [52:00]
Max Bultman
All right, next one is from Carl Melock. I'm actually going to take this one. How should Detroit handle its goalie prospect situation? Someone has to get moved, right? That's certainly the way that people in, in the game think this is headed. I think specifically with Sebastian Kosa who has not played in any of their four postseason games thus far. Michael Postava coming, I don't want to say out of nowhere he won the Czech League championship last year. But for an undrafted player that was signed to have now fully taken over the net, he's got great numbers. He was like 40 minutes of of game time this regular season from being eligible for and thus winning the safe percentage and goals against titles he's emerged like. I do have some questions, Chris. I know you've probably been watching this series because of the flow hockey ties here. Like Postava has been excellent in the series. I do still wonder like he's, he's on the smaller side. He's a great athlete and it's working for him right now. My only question is like is this a guy who is at the level of Koza or Augustine to be Kind of having that conversation or is that. Are we overreacting to sample here?
- [52:58]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I feel. I feel it's partially a little bit of an overreaction to sample, but I think you also have to see, you know, we. We can see. We have eyes, you know, like he is playing outstanding. I think that there's definitely a correlation to success in the AHL in. And you know, that translating, you know, I think we've seen guys, obviously, you know, different size profiles and other things like that, like Devin Cooley, who's, you know, excelled RDC laws last year, you know, for Abbotsford. He's had up and down in the. Up and down results in the NHL. But, you know, I think that what. What is striking to me is, you know, Cosa has been the good soldier for.
- [53:41]
Corey Pronman
Yes.
- [53:42]
Chris Peters
All this time, and they come down to the biggest time of. And he loses his job. I mean, that's. It's curtains. I mean, that's it. Like, I don't know how you come back from that. I don't know how you as an organization, you know, come back from that as. As all that investment in that development and, and your only hope now, you know, I mean, like, Coso was an AHL all star this year.
- [54:07]
Max Bultman
Last two years, consecutive AHL all star.
- [54:10]
Chris Peters
Yeah. I mean, you know, and the thing is, is that you have to continue, like, if you can get better. This is pro hockey. If you can get better, you get better. And, and Postava has been the guy that's been better and he gives them a chance to win the Calder Cup. They're. They're, you know, probably now the favorite to win the Calder cup given their. Their status as the team with the best record remaining and, and how they've played throughout the year. So they're in a real pickle here. I would say, like, in terms of pure upside, I still view Augustine and Cosa as the better upside goalies. But now you've. I think any whatever plan there was with Cosa now is over. I mean, I think that's just what it is.
- [54:54]
Max Bultman
I. I tend to agree. My only question is like, so I, I view like the optim. If you're an optimist on Postava, I think you're hoping that he's Alex Lyon or Jet Grieves and those are like good NHL goals. Is that enough to kind of give up on the first round pick on one hand. On the other hand, do you really have a choice after everything that's happened and they got to get better? You have all these goalie prospects like Trading one is probably the best path to getting better.
- [55:14]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, he's going to hit waivers this next fall, too.
- [55:16]
Max Bultman
He has to be on someone's NHL roster next year.
- [55:19]
Chris Peters
Yes, exactly. So, you know, and I think. I think, you know, unfortunately, it seems like the Detroit Red Wings just developed a player for somebody else, and I do think they're going to have to move on. I think he's going to have to move on. I think, you know, the succession plan. I think you give Augustine almost the entire year and the A next year, you get. You get him on. He's your guy. You know, I think, like, I. I thought he was their guy two years ago. You know, it's just the way that it is. And it's unfortunate, you know, like, because, like, I. I give Sebastian all the credit in the world. ECHL to ahl biding his time, waiting, waiting, waiting, getting better, doing all the things he had to do. But again, it's. It's that nature of pro hockey. If there is someone better, we will take someone better. And that's what's happened right now.
- [56:12]
Max Bultman
All right, next one's for Corey. Jeff Greibel wants to know when teams consistently find players who outperform their draft position. He's referencing Dallas, Tampa, Carolina. How much of that do you attribute to great scouting and how much do you attribute to development, environment, and kind of the fit? Like, are there teams that are just better at maximizing talent, or are these teams better at finding talent?
- [56:32]
Corey Pronman
Can I pick door number three?
- [56:33]
Max Bultman
Yes.
- [56:34]
Corey Pronman
I think they're just the luckiest teams. Like, there. There is. No, there is. I have never seen an organization show repeatable skill in this area. You know, I love Dallas's drafts. I mean, obviously I was, you know, love Wyatt Johnston, love you. Love Jason Robertson and Rupe Hints like, last. Their farm system's terrible right now. Like, there's nothing there at the moment. I don't know. Like, sure about that? Like, what else is. What. What. What is there that you love so much?
- [57:03]
Chris Peters
I mean, I don't think there are stars there, but I think there's a lot of NHL players there.
- [57:07]
Corey Pronman
A lot of NHL players.
- [57:09]
Chris Peters
A lot of NHL in. In Dallas's system.
- [57:11]
Scott Wheeler
I don't see it.
- [57:12]
Chris Peters
Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, like, and it's also. It's also. They've also been one of the best teams in terms of signing undrafted free agents lately and developing them at the AHL level.
- [57:22]
Corey Pronman
Like, I actually do think I. I didn't think her quality was ever going to be close to what he was, so I Mean, that's, that's, that's fair.
- [57:27]
Chris Peters
I mean, like, that's like there's another Herzkovian now. You know, there's a number of guys that I think will matriculate to their NHL roster from the Texas Stars this year. But. Yeah, but I mean, like, I agree, like, I think, like, in general, you're going to have stretches where you've, You've had good stretches of drafting. But I do think there are some teams that have better development setups than others. I think Dallas is one of them.
- [57:53]
Corey Pronman
But he has, like, some of the best draft classes all time. You have like, the Dallas 2017 draft, and you go out to the Montreal draft where they got suban, Pacioretty and McDonough all in the same draft, and that was like one of the greatest draft classes of all time. And then for pretty much ten years after that, they couldn't find anything in the draft.
- [58:11]
Chris Peters
Right.
- [58:11]
Corey Pronman
Like, their first round was just completely awful after that. So I think it's. I think despite how we argue, I'm a Carrolls guy, I'm a Smith's guy, I'm a McKenna guy, whatever kind of thing. None of us are geniuses. We all kind of know who the good players are. We have them all roughly in the same order, minus some minor deviations. Nobody's smarter than anybody else. This is, this is. This is. This is not some sort of advanced science. It's watching hockey players.
- [58:36]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [58:37]
Max Bultman
One thing, to Corey's point, like, so you got Montreal is one of the teams mentioned. They've had some real fines there. The biggest, of course, is Lane Hudson. Right. But if Montreal really knew Lane Hudson was going to be this. They're not taking Philip Mashar and Owen back ahead of him. Right. Like that. That's part of that, for sure.
- [58:51]
Corey Pronman
They took Bashar in the first round first.
- [58:53]
Max Bultman
That, I mean.
- [58:54]
Chris Peters
Yeah. And he was small, too.
- [58:56]
Corey Pronman
One of the worst over there.
- [58:57]
Scott Wheeler
One of the worst picks of that draft, in hindsight.
- [59:00]
Chris Peters
Yeah. And, yeah, it's just. No, it's. It's funny, but to Corey's point, like, if there was anybody that was smarter than anybody else to be the richest person in the NHL, like, like, like clearly, repeatedly smarter. There are some really great scouts. There are some really great player development people there, you know, there. There are people that are definitely above average, but I don't think that there's tons of separation when you're doing predictions, essentially.
- [59:25]
Corey Pronman
Yeah.
- [59:26]
Max Bultman
All right, Chris, this one's for you. It's from Aries. Is. How would you rate Albert Smith's decision making or hockey iq. We hear about his tool speed, athleticism, but I wonder if the hockey IQ is present as well in a way that can translate to him getting better. What's his ceiling?
- [59:39]
Chris Peters
Yeah, so I, I think he's, I think he has, has it in the, in the basic sense of he knows what plays to make, when to make them and I think he executes them adequately. Like, I wouldn't say it's like a standout tool for him, but he is absolutely a player that play. I think he has a mature decision making and processing, you know, kind of skill in that he kind of takes a lot. He doesn't overdo it. I don't think there's any creativity there like in terms of, you know, is he, is he going to make these, you know, outstanding plays and reads that are going to take you, you know, surprise you? I don't think that that's it. I don't think that he's overtly predictable or anything like that either. But you know, I, I just think that there's, it's adequate at, at worst, you know, like, I think that's like. But the thing is this is a guy that has played at the Olympics, he's gonna play at the world Championships, he's played in, in high level playoffs. Like, I think he thinks the game like a pro already and you know, more it's just going to be adjusting each time he goes to a different place, adjusting to the pace, adjusting to the pressure, those things. And I don't really have much concern about him processing the game at an NHL speed. So to me it's not a standout trait, it's not a detrimental trait, it's just, you know, at worst adequate. So you know, I think the, when you combine that with the athleticism that he has showcased, I think that's a good enough thing, you know, good enough for him to be a higher, a higher end, you know, defenseman, a guy that could be a top four playing a lot of minutes in a lot of different roles. I think, you know, he does everything pretty much at a pro level.
- [61:26]
Max Bultman
I will close with this one. Corey from Neil, Bill Raymond. He says for months we've talked about how underwhelming this NTDP team was. That's true, we have talked about that. Now all of a sudden Corey has two in his top 12, that's Wyatt Cullen and Casey Mutron. He says what's changed in their projection, especially Mutron. And you had Mutron going 21 in your last mock. But you have him, I think ranked what, 12 on your latest ranking?
- [61:45]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think the international tournaments were good, like the February tournament. The NTDP played well. I thought Neutron and Colin both looked very good in February. They both looked very good in April. I think with Cullen, obviously we're talking about the significant physical growth, just one of the youngest players of the draft, how much he's grown as a player, the dynamic traits there. With Neutron, I see a guy who's, you know, plays all situations, top power play on that team, kills, penalties, captain, highly physical, six three skates. Well, I think the offense and the production there is a question, I think it's a question for a lot of people. If I look at the body of work there, strong underage numbers. Maybe the U18 team is an underage, a guy who still was, I think, one of the leading scorers on an underwhelming, mind you, NTDP team this year. I think there's just a lot to like and I think there's a, like I look at him versus Oscar Hemming, I don't see a massive, massive difference in how they play in the, in the toolkits.
- [62:40]
Scott Wheeler
He'll be, he'll be a good one for our debates later because I, I, I, I see a big gap between Neutron and Hemming and I actually think Neutron and Ryder Cali, who I think is in like the 40s on Corey's list, are, are closer for me than I would have Mutrin with the Hemming types.
- [62:59]
Max Bultman
Well, I will look forward to, to hearing that debate as we go on. That is going to do it for us today. Thanks. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect series. Remember, you can catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast called Up Be back with you soon.
- [63:16]
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