Loading summary
Transcript211 lines
- [00:01]
A
When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters, but when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.
- [00:31]
B
Hi, this is Ben Mandelker and Ronnie Karam, host of the Watch what Crappens
- [00:35]
C
Podcast here to tell you that the
- [00:37]
B
HBO original comedy series the Comeback is
- [00:40]
D
back for its final season on the Official Comeback Podcast.
- [00:44]
B
Join host Evan Ross Katz along with
- [00:46]
D
Lisa Kudrow and Michael Patrick King to
- [00:48]
B
unpack each episode, hear about the show's origins, real life parallels, and why it still resonates with fans after more than two decades.
- [00:55]
D
Stream the Comeback on HBO MA and watch the Comeback podcast on HBO Max. Or listen wherever you get your podcasts.
- [01:02]
B
A password manager should be the first security purchase you make for your team. Why? Because compromised passwords are the number one way bad actors attack companies, and small businesses are their favorite targets. But unlike a lot of security challenges, passwords actually have a pretty simple solution. 1Password lets you manage all your business's credentials so you can feel confident that your data stays secure and as your company grows. Find out more@1Password.com special offer and start securing every login. This is the athletic hockey show prospect series. Hey everybody, Max Boltman here alongside the Athletics, Corey Promen and Scott Wheeler and Flo Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. We got a fun show on tap today. Scott's got a new 2026 draft list out. We're going to talk about that a little bit later on, but first we're going to turn back the clock a little bit. And it's been nine years since the 2017 NHL Draft. It was one of the more interesting NHL drafts in recent memory, Corey because there wasn't a slam dunk number one overall pick. And I think that makes it a really fun one to revisit for a couple reasons. One, to see how that's all played out. But two is just a little bit of a case study in how, you know, these things are are always snapshots in time. You guys always talk about that. And this one in particular, the way it's evolved. I think the way that we look at the 2017 class, particularly at the top of it is different now than it was two years ago, let alone four years ago, let alone nine years ago. And so I think that makes it a very interesting sample. At the time, the whole discussion was Nico versus Nolan.
- [02:55]
D
That.
- [02:55]
B
That one's not really the conversation anymore.
- [02:59]
C
No, and it's been interesting. I think you've seen over the last decade a lot of leaks from teams to reporters about how they perceive the draft and how they loved Miro Haskin and they loved Kel Makar and up until a couple of years ago, how much they loved Elias Pettersen. You never hear from the teams that had Nico Heir at one, which of which there were plenty, or the ones who had NOLAN Patrick at 1, which at least I know there was a. There was a couple. But yeah, that draft has evolved in a couple of ways. But back then it was definitely Nico versus Nolan and that was a legitimate debate. I think there were definitely people. Neston, Pederson, I knew. I mean, I know there were scouts and teams that had he up there and had Maar up there, but those were minority opinions. It was definitely between those two centers. They were prolific CHL centers with. With. With a rich history of success. He sure was tremendous that year's world juniors. He was tremendous in the queue that year. Nolan Patrick had had three great years in the Western League, although he was injured at times. And there were some questions on his game too. Still, I mean, it was a legitimate debate, but obviously that's not how things have played out since then.
- [04:18]
B
It's interesting too, because I completely understand why that was the debate at the time. Right. Everyone's looking for the franchise center. You had two guys who kind of looked like what we envisioned that as this has turned out to be an unbelievable center class in hindsight. When you look at the names in it, he sure has panned out to be a very good center. Maybe more of like a high end, number two, low end, number one. Elias Pedersen. He's been 100 point player. You could say what you want about where he's been the last couple of years. He's still at all day a top six forward. He's been a 100 point center in the NHL. Robert Thomas, number one center in the NHL. And Nick Suzuki. Scott might be the best of the bunch at this point.
- [04:56]
A
Yeah, the defenseman kind of defined that class in hindsight. But if you were to rank the forwards from that class, I think Nick Suzuki. Nick Suzuki on March 18, 2026 as we record this has as compelling a case as any of those guys. Martin HS who you didn't mention in that group.
- [05:16]
B
More of a winger.
- [05:16]
D
More of a.
- [05:17]
A
More of a winger. But has had a. A heck of a couple of years and I think nature probably has a case to be right there with Suzuki with the way that he's played in Colorado, but it's still probably Suzuki with the two way impact with the position, with what he means to the Montreal Canadiens who are now a playoff team. Again, he's probably the. Like you're taking him over. He. Sure, I think. And. And probably over Nate Chess too. Those. Those feel like the. The three big boys at forward in that group.
- [05:48]
C
Although Pederson's still leading the draft and scoring right now. Yep.
- [05:52]
B
He is not this season, but in the overall like total points. I think it's 497 is what Patterson's at at the time of this recording. And right behind him is McCarthy. We will get to the defenseman here, but just sticking on the center or on the center and the forwards here. Corey. It was an interesting class because some of these names that we talked about, Suzuki, Thomas, those guys were not picked in the top 10. These and even Naches was a little bit later. And Robert Thomas. Yeah, exactly. Thomas, Suzuki. We were talking more about names like Gabe Velardi at the top, about Michael Rasmussen at the top, and that's shifted it. There's a complicated assessment to be done, Corey, about what to take away from this and that'll kind of lead in when we get to the 2026 draft segment, some of these takeaways. But when you kind of reflect back on that. Do you have a. I know every year you do the what I got wrong less. Is there an overriding lesson here?
- [06:42]
C
Well, Velardi is his own unique case because he's actually become quite a good NHL player. Not a great NHL player, but he's become a very, you know, useful piece in the National Hockey League. It took a very long time, though. I mean his injury situation was so complicated back then. And you know, he was the name that kept coming up when people were talking about Kaden Lindstrom in the 2024 draft and then Roger McQueen in the 2025 draft. When you have these complicated back and. And hip injuries, that those are things that can really drag out for years. I. I know when back then the assessment of Vardi when he went 11th overall to the Kings was that this is, this is a problematic injury. But I remember at the time because I've been doing this for a long time. I'm getting a little bit old I, I, I remember talking to scouts back then. The assessment was from, from a lot of their doctors was this is going to be one, maybe two rough years here, but we can get him back. He's going to be fine. He's going to be playing hockey regularly. In two years that was not the case. It was a lot of ups and downs and stops and starts and, and is, is his career over? You know, hypothesizing and obviously he comes back and is good but just not for the team that drafted him.
- [08:02]
A
That's still, still something that he's dealing with too. Like my understanding is Velardi in terms of stretching and preparing his back and like it's, it's a career long thing that he's just managing now.
- [08:14]
C
If you look at least in the top 15, the names that probably didn't pan out. Cal Foot, although obviously complicated. Other issues with Cal Foot, you know, Leah Anderson at 7, Cody Glass at 6 and to a degree, Middlestad at 8. Although he's still playing, he's a good player. A lot of guys there, heavy feet. A lot of guys there who really struggled with the pace of the NHL. But you can't use that as like a definitive rule because I don't think Suzuki is the fastest player in the world. But he's got, you know, tremendous stick and brain and competitiveness. But that'd be probably one of the, the most common traits there, Max. You know, you've probably covered Rasmussen's career, you know, a lot and I know there was a lot of debate at nine of yeah, he's big, yeah, he skates okay. But like he was a point, a game player in the Western League. Was this the biggest upside swing, yada yada. And it's fair because obviously net just goes ahead of him. You know, Suzuki, even you could have a conversation him versus Tippet. I think you still might, you could take Raspberry over tip it though. But I mean there's a lot of guys in those 10, 12 picks that went right after Rasmussen that outside of those couple that became prolific players that he probably ends up being better than though, right?
- [09:32]
B
Yeah, it's always an interesting one for me to discuss with fans because it's a pick that I think to this day frustrates Red Wings fans. They see the success of Suzuki, of Thomas, of nature. I think there was a lot of love for nature and a lot of love for Gabe Velardi who played in Windsor and so was very close to Detroit and a lot of interest in him. So he's always kind of had kind of carried the burden of having been the ninth pick who went ahead of those guys. But I'm interested in it because you look at him and we sort these by points. Right? And I wouldn't say scoring has been a defining feature of Michael Rasmussen's game in his NHL career. He's still top 20 in this class in scoring and that's while being, you know, a defensive center, a penalty killer. I don't know where he goes in a redraft here, but it's probably somewhere around there 20 to 25. There's some goalies, some defensemen who you take ahead of him that are lower on the scoring list. But you know, it's funny like I was looking at he's same same number of points as A two loose to Rhine. And I think the way we talk about A two loose Derinen is, is much more glowing and there's a reason for that loose. Torrinen's been on winning teams. I think he skates better than Rasmussen. I'd take him over him but it is interesting every time I go back to this class to look at like, you know, Red Wings fans frustration on one hand and the reality of it that this is kind of what the, you know, he probably should have gone 10 to 15 picks later. But it's not like he was a, you know, Leah Anderson situation here.
- [10:48]
C
Lewista Ryan is one of the more interesting players from that draft because he was a draft plus one that year that this was his second draft eligible year. If you look back at his stats, it wasn't glowing numbers he put up in LIGA even in that second draft season but he kind of like took off right towards the end of the year. He was the definition of a late riser. I remember like talking to head scouts who like in the month of March and April so you know, peak CHL playoff season U18s, there's a lot going on and they were popping over to Europe to go watch this kid. So he was a really fascinating case of just pure athleticism and a guy whose offense kind of developed late.
- [11:29]
B
Totally. And you talked about the heavy feet. I think that's kind of a theme too when I look at some of the wingers here and some of them started out as centers and the reason that they are not wingers is because of the feet and that's you know, geeky and Velardi, but Jason Robertson, not the fastest guy but he's going to end up as one of the highest scoring players in this class. Has a chance by the end of it all to be the highest scoring player in this class. He's only about 20. Jake Bath, another great example there. Right. So I don't know if there's a takeaway here, but it is interesting to contrast that versus some of the more like shifty wingers that were in this class. Your Kyler Yamamoto, your Ely Tolvanens, and see kind of who rose to, to the top of this. Chris?
- [12:05]
D
Yeah, I mean, yeah, Robertson was one of those guys. I, you know, and I think there's, there's other, it wasn't, you know, just the feet that put them outside of the first round here, but in the end I think that was a defining factor. But you know, I think Robertson in particular is one of the great lessons in the, in the, the equalizing factor of hockey sense and the ability to understand how to create offense and how to use time and space to your advantage and other things like that. But yeah, I mean, I think for a lot of these guys, you know, some of them also, it wasn't necessarily the straightest, their quickest path to the NHL and in order for them to, to, you know, to be a factor needed, you know, all of their junior eligibility, maybe some time in the ahl, different things like that. And then you have guys like geeky who have just, it's been a much later kind of explosion towards the end. And so they're, you know, with players that have the skill level, you know, as, as a, as one of their defining traits, in addition to being a little bit on the bigger side. I think there are a lot of things that you can look at to, you know, put a, put together a picture of what an NHL player looks like. And I think the 2017 class in particular is a great lesson in the, you know, the varying ways that you can reach and reach the league and have an impact in the league. It's a really compelling class in that way. Lots of guys that were first round picks that are, you know, kind of bottom of the lineup guys or tweeners, and then you have some of these mid round guys like Batherson and, and Robertson. But again, I think sometimes in cases like Batherson and Robertson in particular, sometimes you just have to allow yourself to believe that what they're doing at the level they're at is impressive. You know, like, it's like, oh, he, yeah, he's got all these points. But will that translate? In certain, you know, and not all cases it is, but when you look at the size profile, the, you know, the mitigating factors whether it be their hockey sense or their you know, their physicality or something of that nature. You know the, the players with some size and some skill have a great, a pretty long Runway and it might not be right away but you know those are guys that I think are great examples of the power of patience and also you know, hockey sense can get take you a long way.
- [14:25]
C
Robertson and Bathurst I think are a little different for me too. Like Robertson was a prolific junior scorer. Like the entire time he was in the OHL he was what do you have like 80, 90 points in his draft year. He had a strong underage profile too. Like there was always. There was no doubt on his skill. His brain is just. Is the brain and stick leaked enough given his problematic skating stride. He kind of is gangly on unathletic skating stride to make it. Obviously the answer was yes and with an emphatic yes actually given how good he's been in the NHL. Bton on the other hand was like Lewis Ren and a late bloomer. Scott might know this detail better than me, but I believe he had a significant growth spurt right around the time of. That's his draft plus one year like it. This was not a. I think he was like 5:10 or 5:11 when he came into the, when he came into the queue and obviously now he's like close to 6:3. So that one was just like identifying some traits, some intriguing skill developing body by Ottawa in the mid rounds and and then obviously Bathon became that year after his draft he was one of the mower like dominant Q players. I could remember.
- [15:31]
A
He. Yeah he, I think he was like 5 11, 6ft and is listed in his draft here by NHL Central Scouting. I'd have to go back and, and check and he was still very productive in his draft year in the queue. But that that step he took post draft was, was something else. Like that was. Okay we've got a diff different cat here.
- [15:51]
B
Now you're never going to like solve how to draft based on just looking back at one class. But it's interesting because we're talking about some of this profile and you might think okay so always draft like the skilled highly productive scorer. Like even if they're a little slow footed. But then you have Liam Greentree, Colby Barlow, Arthur Kaliev. Like there's other counter examples to kind of this similar profile of the prolific scorers here. And I wonder like is there a trait that jumps out that's like yeah, but those guys had elite sense or more compete or something like that. Corey.
- [16:22]
C
Well, Tovanen is one from that year who everyone loved. Like, he was a world junior player at 17. He had a tremendous international track record. Didn't have a great year in the USHL that year, but he had been very good as underage. Like, that was the skill guy that everybody loved. And then even in his draft, plus one year, he goes with the khl, he rips it up. He's obviously, he's in the NHL now. He is an NHL player, but his size, skating profile was very problematic, and he was never really. I think when you have that issue, you want to have the high compete because that's what Suzuki is like. He. He's not the biggest or the fastest, but he's a warrior. Like, I was watching the game of his the other night, and the way he could win battles for a guy his size is just so impressive. Like, that was probably to. To's issue. So, I mean, it's. It's always a balancing act, right? Like, you go back to that draft and, you know, a small guy with prolific feet would have been Branstrom. Like, holy hell can Eric Branstrom skate? But he still couldn't defend at the pro. At the pro level, like, he wasn't hard enough. He wasn't competitive enough. When you're that size or you're big and you're slow, you got to have some other trait there to really hang your head on.
- [17:34]
D
Yeah.
- [17:35]
A
You didn't even mention Oliver Wahlstrom, Kiefer Bellows there. Max off the top.
- [17:39]
B
Like, absolutely.
- [17:40]
A
It's a very long.
- [17:41]
C
Not this draft.
- [17:42]
B
But no, he's saying, like, recent guys who were prolific scorers, and maybe you would. You would go, okay, you got to trust the trust. What's there. Like, those guys busted, too.
- [17:53]
C
The toolsiest guy in this draft, who I believe, why he didn't make it, but God damn, I thought he was gonna make it was vessel linen. I'm not sure if you guys remember watching vessel linen when he was a teenager. Like, that guy was so talented, like, six, four. He could fly. He had good skill. He could rip a puck. Like. Like, he was just, like. Just lazy. Like, average hockey sense. But, like, so, like, it makes you kind of think of rubric a little bit, like, from guys this year, like a Lyndon Lakovic. Like, that profile a little bit. But he was so, so talented. So much fun to watch. At the junior level. He played pro all year between Sweden and Finland in his draft year. But. But he. At the junior level, he looked like a. Like a. Like A like not a can't miss guy, but a guy who had a really good chance to make it.
- [18:42]
B
Yeah.
- [18:42]
D
And yeah, he couldn't even do it in the, at the AHL level when he got over here.
- [18:47]
A
Owen Tippett too. Like I, I know a few people around Owen and watched him a lot in, in Mississauga back then and like just the athleticism, the ability to shoot it, the skating. And yet for a long time Owen had no clue how to play hockey. And it, it just took him, took him a long, long, long time to figure it out between the ears. And Tippetts have now signed what almost $8 million player with the Flyers.
- [19:11]
B
But yeah, he's figured it out. You know, he was a top 10 pick. It took a while to come around. I still don't know if it's top 10 what you're looking for, but he's 40 to 50 point guy. Like that's a, that's a useful top half of the first round.
- [19:21]
D
He was, he was in the, they. They gave him the, the early tryout too in the NHL right after his draft like, like and then, and then he didn't get that for a couple of years. It's like, oh, what happened there? You know. So yeah, it was interesting. Yeah.
- [19:35]
C
Clem Cost is another one who. Really toolsy. He struggled in his draft year. You know, play limited minutes in the khl, but six four, heavy skilled Russian winger. It's tough with guys like that because like there was, there was a lot of like talk at the time about like is he F2 over physically developed? The usual tropes about Russians, about how old is he really, etc. Etc. But and which obviously you could never verify any troops to it. But I remember watching him when he was a junior player, especially as an underage player and like you thought like this guy has all the tools. I remember even like St. Louis was like the draft table. They were bragging about him like they couldn't believe they got him at 31. Yada yada. Not the only thing time you've seen teams do that, but that was one that I couldn't believe he couldn't add a little bit more offense. Same thing with B and R. Win the American League. It was a struggle right away. Like he couldn't score in North America at the level that I thought he was going to be able to score. That is. Which was at least like a reasonable middle six winger.
- [20:39]
A
I'll never forget Coston on the, at the draft that year they had the top six or seven guys from NHL Central from both of NHL Central Scouting's list in a room sort of backstage at the draft. And Costin was one of those 12 or 13 players that they sat there and then they got to walk on stage as their names were picked and then suddenly everybody in the room is gone because they've already been selected and Coston's just sitting there until pick 31. And in hindsight, probably sitting for good
- [21:08]
C
reason, which at the time was the last pick of the first round.
- [21:12]
D
Yep,
- [21:19]
A
With its two juicy beef patties,
- [21:21]
C
three slices of melted cheese and tangy Big Arch sauce.
- [21:25]
D
The Big Arch is what happens when
- [21:27]
C
you start making a McDonald's burger and never stop. The Big Arch the most McDonald's McDonald's
- [21:32]
B
burger yet for a limited time. If you work in university maintenance, Grainger considers you an MVP because your playbook ensures your arena is always ready for tip off. And Grainger is your trusted partner, offering the products you need all in one place, from H VAC and plumbing supplies to lighting and more. And all delivered with plenty of time left on the clock. So your team always gets the win. Call 1-800-GRAINGER visit grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [22:05]
A
The future moves fast.
- [22:07]
C
Ave Points Shift Happens Podcast is your
- [22:10]
A
edge where leaders unpack AI, data marketing, modern work, and the mindset shifts that
- [22:15]
C
turn change into advantage. Hear what top innovators are trying next and how to make it work.
- [22:21]
A
Visit AVPT Co Shift today.
- [22:38]
B
Corey, A little bit ago you mentioned Eric Branstrom and that's a good that's where I want to start kind of as we pivot to the D here, because from 14 to 18 in this class there was a run of five straight defensemen. And I I think I'm clear to say that none of them hit cal Foot at 14, Eric Branstrom 15, Yuso Valamaki 16, Timothy Lilligrin at 17 and Erhovac A9 and at 18. To go over five like that in a run of defenseman normally would mean oh, this D class bombed, but it is saved by Cal McCarr and Miro Haskin and going well 4 and 3 respectively. And I think there's a very real case they would go one and two in a redraft of this.
- [23:18]
C
Corey yes, and I think there's a lot of people, especially with Makar. There's always kind of been the debate since then is why didn't he go one? Because he's so good and he's become such a dominant force in the NHL, obviously Hayeskin has two, but Makar is Stanley cup winner, elite offense, kind of the anchor there for Team Canada there at the Olympics. You know, he's just a very special player. And you go back to that draft, like we've mentioned at the top, that you had these two really good centers, you know, very toolsy, great CHL careers. Do you realize the balls it would have taken to take a late birth date 511 defenseman in the AJHL ahead of those guys? And I know teams were thinking that. I know New Jersey was thinking about it. They didn't end up doing it, but they did a lot of research on Makar that year with the first overall pick. They. That was a serious debate in that room. But to pass on a guy who you felt really confident was going to be a top six center in the NHL, a really good top six center, you know, McCarr, there was questions on how it's going to translate. There was questions how it was going to translate even in the year after his draft. He wasn't even the top scoring defenseman at UMass from his draft. In that draft plus one year it was Mario Ferraro outscored him that first year. That obviously the second year he goes goes off ridiculous. College year goes the NHL, you know, the rest is history. But there was some significant risks in that projection. Despite the great feat, the great skill, the great hockey sense, you know, the AHL is very far removed from the chl, never mind from in NHL. So those were the risks there. I think with Hanin, I think he was kind of viewed more as like a defense version of he sheer, just really well rounded, probably a better skater. But I think the chance to get a guy you thought had a chance to be a first line center won the day there. But I think that was more of a conversation, at least in terms of risks. I don't know. Might you guys think I'm misremembering anything there? Because I feel like I think everyone's everybody. I think Central had Makar, what, like seventh in North America or something that year? Yeah, it was like it was all
- [25:33]
D
over the map with Kale.
- [25:34]
C
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's easy to say now and easy to say, oh yeah, I loved him. I remember watching with the world Junior Challenge, he was incredible and he was like, he was dominant at that junior event and dominant in the. In Brooks. But I mean, can you imagine like in this draft, like we're talking about McKenna and Stenberg and if I told you there's this guy in the bchl, who I adore. He's so talented. Let's take him over. McKenna. Like, you guys would, like, laugh at me. Like, you know, it would.
- [26:02]
D
Yeah. And even then, like, then it was like the AJ was still like, you know, they had, they would have players. They would have, they would have guys that you would draft, but very rarely were they in the first round. And I, you know, I think we, we kind of saw some of that this year where like, Ty and Lawrence was like, I probably need to go to BU if I'm going to have any chance at being the number one pick. Because people are, you know, whatever. They may not take a USHL player first overall. And you know, that, that's the thing is, like, if, if McCarr was in a different league, maybe we are having a different discussion, but that was a big part of it. And in Corey, I remember even, like, talking to you before, because this was actually the year that I did not cover the 2017 draft. I was out of hockey at this point for my one year out of it. And I remember the conversation we had. I was like, I. Because you mocked him there at the end, didn't you, at number one.
- [26:53]
C
Yeah, that's, that's not where I had him rated. But I, I.
- [26:57]
D
Right.
- [26:57]
C
I heard New Jersey was doing homework there, and I was wrong ultimately on that front. But.
- [27:02]
D
Right.
- [27:02]
C
I thought he was going. I thought he was going to go first overall. Yes.
- [27:05]
D
Yeah. I mean, and that was so, like. Yeah, so like. And that was a legitimate thing. And that was certainly something that I was hearing, too, is like all of a sudden like, you know, there, there's, there's a lot of teams. And the debate came back to league strength. Different things like, how do you project that out? And, you know, ultimately, you know, it. If they would have done it, they would, you know, would have a generational defenseman. But, you know, it's. It's really like you thinking back to that and to Corey's point, the jump from the AJ to NCAA for Cale Makar was not managed very well in the first year. He was. I was going back and looking at some of my other things, and it really wasn't until his sophomore season where it looked like, oh, my God, this is a different human here, you know, and so, and, and think about how little he was utilized at the World Juniors that year, too, where barely touched the end. Yes, he was a power play guy, like a specialist, the seven.
- [27:54]
C
He was a second power play guy. He had to sit behind Kale Clegg, who was Right, that's right.
- [27:59]
D
And, and he ended up still, I think what he had a point per game in the tournament as well.
- [28:03]
C
And so like, very good.
- [28:04]
D
Yeah, it's just like, you know, there, there are some people that are just different and it's real. Like I, I feel like it's hard to allow yourself to believe it in certain settings. And I feel like that's really what ended up happening with Cale McCarr is that the fact that he went fourth from the AJ is still a really impressive thing. And then, you know. Yeah, that one will. That, that is always going to be one of the most fascinating things that in the current landscape it'll never happen again. So we don't have to worry about
- [28:34]
B
that, I guess with Haskin and it's interesting because I feel like he's having one of the best seasons of his career this year. And yet I've never heard less about Miroheskinen than I am right now.
- [28:45]
A
I think the problem with that is that on top of what Cale and Quinn have become in the league, you've also now got Warrensky and Lane Hudson and these other guys who've just really, really elevated. And it almost feels like what Miro is, has become, he's been way better. There was even talk last year of maybe he's being replaced as the number one defenseman on his team. Like he has been way better than Thomas Harley this year. So I think part of it is just time and there's new shiny toys. Like with what Lane's doing, with what Zach, with what we're inski's done the last couple of years, with what Siders doing this year, there have just been other players that have risen to that, that sort of level. And lo and behold, the Dallas Stars are one of the best teams in the league and Miro Heiskin is still one of the best defensemen in the league.
- [29:33]
B
You know, a couple months ago I pitched to Dom and Shayna. I was like, this is the year of the two, the true two way defenseman between Cider Sanderson and Haskin. And I was like, all three of those guys are going to end up, I think in the top five. And, and just as the years gone on, Quinn got out of Vancouver and recaptured the magic in Minnesota. Warensky is somehow at or outshining the level that he did last year, which was outstanding. And then Lane Hudson is, is right there as well.
- [29:57]
A
To your point, Evan Bouchard has like 200 points.
- [30:00]
B
That's right, exactly. So, so somehow these, these every year and it's, it drives me a little bit crazy because I do think that that that player type is so coveted in the NHL and it just gets lost over and over again.
- [30:14]
C
Well, some of those two way guys are better than some of those other guys. That's just a reality.
- [30:17]
B
I agree. I'm just saying that they get lost in the conversation, you know.
- [30:20]
D
Right.
- [30:20]
C
You, you mean that the, the voters just sort by points.
- [30:24]
B
You will not get me to say that on the record.
- [30:27]
C
That's okay.
- [30:30]
B
All right. Any other thoughts on this class before we get to 2026? I mean the, the goalie class here. Jake Ottinger is kind of the shining star in that regard. UKA Pekalukanin shut out last night or Tuesday night in Vegas. Anyone else here that stands out that you want to talk about?
- [30:46]
C
I mean there's so many things you can go on. We had even mentioned like Luligrin, like that there was such a hype train for that guy going into his draft and ultimately he runs into issues. Average hockey sense I think like really doomed him there towards the end. But like that was one. You know, we didn't even mention the guy in the top year too. And like Leah's Anderson. Yeah, like, yeah, that's got, that's just, you know, probably, you know, probably the most disastrous pick from that draft was Anderson. And like they thought he was going
- [31:18]
D
to be a captain.
- [31:19]
C
Yeah, I know. And like remember, go back to that time, he was a world junior player that year. Probably played better than Pedersen did at the world Juniors that year. Patterson didn't play well at all at that tournament. And I think he even got invited. Did he play world championships? I think he got invited to like pre tournament games with the world championship team. I figured yeah, yeah. And like he got like. But there was always like, yeah, he's 5 11. Yeah, he's not that fast. Like yeah, he's not super skilled. But everyone who loves like he's a warrior, he's Mike Richards. Like this is, this is what this guy is going to be. And then but like, yeah, like, well, you're picking top 10. Like as competitive as a guy is, like it's. You've gotta like have at least some sort of like high end traits to hang, you know, to, to, to be hopeful about. Like he's gotta be able to skate, he's gotta be able to score. He's gotta at least have some sort of athletic projection there. Like that's. I always struggled with that one. Like I got a lot wrong that year. That was One I just never fully understood the hype for.
- [32:25]
D
Yeah, now in, now in Switzerland. Now playing professionally in Switzerland after two of his most successful AHL seasons after not panning out as an NHL player. So just. Yeah, that. That one is. And you know he was such a central part of Sweden's. You know they went on that run the following year in 2018 where he was the captain, you know, all those, all those different things and man it just. It never. I mean like he was in that. The other thing too. So he, he started the season. Didn't he start the season with. For London and then he moved to the AHL and then the Rangers like oh, we got to get him in like he played. He played games that following year, you know, in the NHL. So it's just. It's. It's very strange. He had two of his 17 points that year, by the way. 17 points in 110 NHL games for the seventh of world pick.
- [33:17]
B
This was the Vegas expansion draft and it is amazing to me how badly this should have gone by. What happened with their. With their three picks in the top 15. They take Cody Glass at 6, Suzuki at 13, but then trade him for Max Pacioretti and then they trade Eric Branstrom to recover from having that been your first draft. You have this amazing opportunity with three top 15 picks to start your franchise on. You nail one of them but trade the one you nail and. And to somehow recover from that, you know like Willy Wonka esque fashion is magic.
- [33:53]
C
Well I, I do remember when they traded Br. That was the Mark Stone trade.
- [33:57]
D
Yep.
- [33:58]
C
Good, good, good player to get back. Kind of been important for them the last, you know, last little while. I remember like Pierre Dorian then the senator general manager like talking about just the glowing review of Eric Branstrom. He's like well we traded Mark Stone but we. The reason we did we got. Because we got. Can't believe I just got Eric Branstrom. That was it was he like he was effusive in his praise of that player and obviously just complete disaster after that.
- [34:23]
A
He was start of the. The 511 puck moving D man in the first round. That doesn't work out trend that followed for eight or nine years.
- [34:33]
B
Basically focus the next year.
- [34:35]
C
Unlike. Unlike some of those guys like Vesa Lane and Lila Grin and Coston Branson came over. He was really good right away like that first year in Chicago. He was excellent in the American League, I think he was. We came over at 19, I think but he like he was really, really good. You're like oh, it's gonna work, it's going to translate and then he gets the NHL. And that's, you know, not really a novel take. The NHL is a little bit better than the American League and he just, just couldn't defend and the offense was just never really truly elite enough to compensate.
- [35:10]
D
Yeah. And you know what I do think going, looking back at the Vegas thing real quick, like how good of a lesson was that for them to just be like draft picks are commodities.
- [35:19]
B
They are not the future.
- [35:21]
D
Like, like it's like, hey, if we. And the thing is, is that, you know, teams constantly overvalue their prospects. They constantly do it and will hold on to them for too long and you know, basically, you know, Vegas will have no qualms about it because it did eventually lead to a Stanley cup, you know, and, and with, especially with Mark Stone being a central figure and all those different things like that's, that works, you know. But yeah, that could have been, that could have been a complete disaster. You also wonder what is, what do they look like with Nick Suzuki at the center of everything. But then you probably don't have Jack Eichel at that point. You know, all these different things, there's, there's lots of what ifs that you could play in there. But in the end, you know, this is a team that has basically made their every single year. You could pretty much guarantee if like, you know, hey, Trevor Connolly I think has lasted longer than any first round draft pick that they've had. So kudos to him.
- [36:15]
A
Ironically enough, they also ended up with Nick Hagg from this draft class who they didn't pick.
- [36:19]
B
There you go.
- [36:20]
D
Yeah.
- [36:22]
C
At some point you feel like the, you know it's going to come due for them.
- [36:26]
B
Right.
- [36:26]
C
Like this is a pretty old team in like, I mean I wasn't about Pittsburgh last year, but obviously Sidney Crosby and Eric Carlson seem to have, you know, be truly special players. Seem to extended the window there a little bit. But I think with Vegas, when, when it comes due for them, it's going to hurt.
- [36:46]
B
The thing is though, like Vegas is going to their ability to recruit as both a no tax state and a destination in a place with this reputation. Eventually yes, they're going to need some young players. I do still think as many players as become available on the trade deadline, Vegas is going to be in the top two or three on their list. So yes, you probably won't have the assets to chase after them in trades forever, but to the extent that there even is free agency going forward, they're always Going to be a player in that, too. Can we do a quick like. I want to see how you guys would draft the top 10. If we. If we can.
- [37:15]
D
We.
- [37:16]
B
Are we unanimous? Corey, do you want to. Do you want to just go in a square here? You want to pick number one and we'll just see how this would shake out in a top 10.
- [37:23]
C
All right, first overall pick. I will. I will fall on that grenade and take Kale Makar.
- [37:29]
A
Scott, I think it's Miro. 2.
- [37:33]
B
Chris,
- [37:36]
D
why is this. Shouldn't be. I don't like it. I don't like.
- [37:40]
B
You want me to go third? I can go third.
- [37:41]
D
No. Okay. Yeah, you go third, and then I'll take.
- [37:43]
B
I think it's. I think Nick Suzuki has a very real case. To go three.
- [37:46]
D
Yeah, Yeah, I think. Right. I think you're right. Nick Suzuki, because I didn't want to take him three. I'll take him for Jason Robertson.
- [37:55]
B
Okay, Corey,
- [37:59]
C
this is where things get tough here, because I think he sure is now in the conversation. Pedersen's in the conversation. Thomas is in the conversation here. Yeah. Netches is the better talent, but I'll take. He.
- [38:18]
A
Sure.
- [38:18]
C
I think. Okay, Scott, I'll go.
- [38:23]
A
I'll go Nechus over Rob Thomas, and
- [38:27]
B
I would say Thomas at 7 then.
- [38:30]
A
Yeah.
- [38:31]
D
By process of elimination, Chris has had
- [38:34]
A
the only two hard picks here, I think has Petters.
- [38:37]
C
Did Patterson get pictured?
- [38:38]
B
He just did. At number eight.
- [38:40]
D
Just. He just did Pedersen.
- [38:42]
A
Okay.
- [38:42]
B
All right, so nine.
- [38:43]
C
Corey Oddinger. Yeah.
- [38:47]
A
Okay.
- [38:48]
B
And then a ten, Scott, if you want to round it out.
- [38:51]
A
I don't know, man. Like, is it. Is it Bathurson?
- [38:59]
D
Good.
- [38:59]
C
Depends how much you like me. Do you do. I don't really love Swayman, but I guess he could be considered in the argument.
- [39:05]
A
Yeah. Yeah, it's probably.
- [39:07]
C
I would take. I. I would probably. I don't know.
- [39:10]
B
I think if any of those goalies that have gone in that 10 to 15 range in recent years became Swayman, their teams would be very happy.
- [39:16]
A
Swayman's. Swayman's one of Vesna.
- [39:18]
C
It's.
- [39:18]
A
It's. It's probably Swayman.
- [39:21]
C
On a per game basis, it's probably Josh Norris, but obviously there's a major asterisk there, I think.
- [39:27]
B
I think Buffalo would love to trade Josh Norris for Jeremy Swayman if they could do it right.
- [39:31]
C
So, yeah, like I said, I think Josh Norris, when he's healthy, is an outstanding hockey player there. But it's. Yeah, it's been a rough go of that late. The last.
- [39:40]
D
Too big event?
- [39:41]
C
Pretty much.
- [39:41]
D
Yeah.
- [39:42]
C
Pretty much his whole career.
- [39:43]
B
Not bad for a class that, that had all that chaos at the top back in 2017. Turned out they had no, no, no. Number one overall pick to maybe like three or four number one overall. Big worthy players in that class. Let's take a quick break right there. We'll circle back and we'll talk about the 2026 class and maybe if there's anything we can take from 2017 as we head along it.
- [40:07]
C
We're lost and kickoff's coming up. I don't want to miss the lineup.
- [40:11]
A
I'm going to ask that man for directions.
- [40:14]
D
Hi there.
- [40:14]
B
We're trying to get to the stadium. Well, you're going to take a left at the old oak tree at this here road. Nah, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out. How is their signal out here? T Mobile and US Cellular are coming together so the network out here is huge. We get the same great signal as the city, saving a boatload with benefits. And there's a five year price guarantee too. Okay, here's the turn.
- [40:37]
A
Actually, can you pull up the way to a T Mobile store?
- [40:40]
B
America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out. Plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available at US Cellular stores in Hermiston. Best mobile network based on analysis by Ooklo's B test intelligence data. Second half of 2025 bigger network. The combination of T Mobile's and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. See t mobile.com for details.
- [41:05]
A
When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system,
- [41:11]
B
they matter even more.
- [41:12]
A
Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.
- [41:36]
B
Guys, it's no use putting it off. The best time for an underwear refresh is now.
- [41:42]
D
Tommy John underwear is designed for a
- [41:44]
B
perfect fit that stays put all day. There's zero chafe thanks to four times more stretch than competing brands. And their innovative horizontal quick draw fly is a game changer. With over 30 million pairs sold, there are thousands of men out there more comfortable than you don't settle for less. Go to tommyjohn.com today for 25% off your first order with code comfort. That's tommyjohn.comfort. tommy John Comfort. Perfected. All right, we are back. And, and Scott, you had a 20, 26 draft list come out this week and I wonder with everything we just talked about, kind of looking back at the 17 class, is there anything that you think really applies in how you're analyzing or expect to be analyzing this year's draft class? There's, you know, there's always certain debates that are kind of universal here.
- [42:32]
A
Yeah, I, I think the two universal debates that come to mind in the conversation we just had is the smaller group of D where we've talked a lot about last year. No sub 6 foot D. Cam Reed's the only 6 foot D taken in the first round. This group has a number of those guys all of a sudden. And frankly, next year's draft, I just started sort of putting the finishing touches on my first list for next year's draft which will be out next week. And it's, it looks similar. Like the top D in next year's class led by Landon Dupont are kind of fit into that, that sort of size category. And then Corey and I have had some interesting conversations about the sort of late first, second round, 80, 90 point CHL wing types that are in that 511 range and where they fit in this class. We almost, we couldn't quite settle on a number, but we almost settled on a number for whether one of Mathis Preston, Igor Shield, of Thomas Cherenko and Nikita Klepov. Whether one of those guys sort of goes in the first round or where those guys fit. Once the big names, once the true premium guys are off the board, I think that's going to be a conversation that we're having on draft day and coming out of draft day and into next year. Some of those guys are going to put up big numbers in junior hockey next year. There's a chance that Klepov goes to Michigan State next year and has a good year on a good team. And so that conversation is always interesting for me because you get through the, the six to six one centers with skill, you get through the premium D and then what happens with that sort of second tier. And we had Yamamoto in 2017 and Tolvanen in 2017 that we just talked about and then Branstrom on the d side in 2017 that we chatted about. That for me is, is an interesting sort of second layer to the Draft conversation this year because those players are like, we've had some highs with Nikita Klepov. He's one of the leading. He might actually lead the ohl depending on how this weekend goes. He might lead the OHL in scoring this year. Preston's been banged up, but Preston's had some real highs with Hockey Canada.
- [44:37]
C
That.
- [44:38]
A
That conversation around those kids, I think, is an interesting layer once you get through the chase reads and the true sort of big boys.
- [44:46]
C
I believe the exact words wasn't a conversation. I believe we. You had a wager, which I offered, and you declined top 32.
- [44:54]
A
It was. Corey insisted on top 30, and I offered top 32. That one of those guys goes top 32. And Corio.
- [45:03]
C
Yeah. But I think now. Well, I think cluboff's probably going top 32, so I think that that was. This wager was back in November, so
- [45:10]
A
I should have taken the bet is what you're saying.
- [45:12]
C
Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think it was a mistake. I don't know if she loves maybe. I think Preston's a big baby. Where do you have him on your list right now?
- [45:20]
A
I have Preston right at the back end, like, 30, 29, 30, 27.
- [45:28]
D
I'm looking.
- [45:29]
C
I. I have him, like, way later than that. Like, I think he was just.
- [45:32]
A
He's not going in the first place.
- [45:34]
C
Yeah, I think he was off. He was really bad this year. He's been. Compared to what?
- [45:38]
A
He's been good in Vancouver and Spokane was tough. Like, Spokane was a tough situation for him.
- [45:45]
C
I think he's really talented. The feet, the skill are tremendous, but he's just. There's. There's a lot of hope in his game.
- [45:52]
A
I think he'll be at U18s and have a nice U18s as well.
- [45:56]
D
Yeah.
- [45:57]
B
On the small defenseman point, Scott, a guy that you've loved this whole draft cycle is Ryan Lynn. And I wonder, like, as we talk about some of the guys of that profile who didn't pan out, what do you see in Lynn that makes you confident enough that he is different from those guys to rank him as highly as you do?
- [46:13]
A
I. I just think the combination of the smarts and the competitiveness. Some of those guys had the smarts. None of them really had the competitiveness. He's got the offense, he's got the statistical track record, the pedigree, all of that. But it's. It's how hard he plays, how hard he competes, how smart he is on both sides of it, the way that he defends. We've talked about that a lot already on the show, but that for me is what sort of distinguishes him from Your your late first or early second round D that size. Like I I just think he's one of the very best players in this age group right now. Now, that doesn't mean he will be one of the very best NHL players, but I think because of how intelligent he is on both sides of it and because of how hard he plays, I have more confidence that he will remain sort of as one of the better players in this class. And I think he's also another he's like he's going to go to U18s but and they're going to play him 25 minutes a night on that blue line for Canada and I think that will also help his case after playing on a pretty poor Vancouver team this year.
- [47:18]
B
A couple players on your list that we haven't spent a ton of time on yet this draft cycle and I'm sure we will as it gets closer. But now's as good a time as any is, you know, with so much focus on Ivar Stenberg and on Viggo Bjork out of Sweden. But Marcus Nord Mark and Elton Hermansen are also lottery pick range guys for you and I don't think we've talked about him maybe more than a minute or two so far.
- [47:39]
A
Yeah, Corey talked last week on the show about his sort of top eight group. I've got a top 12 group and then right behind that top 12 group is Nordmark and Hermanson. Nordmark is as talented a winger as there is in this class after the Big two. Like extremely, extremely talented. Has had some real highs at five or six different events now with with the Swedish national team. Five nations go back all the way back to U17s in Sarnia a year ago. Has the numbers haven't quite popped domestically like they have internationally with Nordmark, but just very, very high end skill package. And then Herman S got the pro track record also a very skilled player. A little bit bigger, a little bit stronger than Nordmark. Maybe not quite as dynamic with the puck but can score and Hermansen has the track record of having done it at a pro level in hockey. El Spence in this year and been a really strong contributor for them. I think he scored almost 15 goals for them at that level this year. 13 or 14 goals if I'm not mistaken. Those two guys. I'll be interested to see where they go on draft day. I had a conversation with an amateur scout last week when I was doing a poll for our McKenna piece. And I got talking with him about some of the other wingers and he posed that same question to me of like, where do you think Nordmark and Hermanson go? Because I like them a lot and they're very, very talented. But if those guys are tricky to sort of slot and I think they're probably going to both end up sort of in the middle of the first round somewhere. Maybe one of them in the early twenties. But they're, they are, they're like once you get past the premium guys, they're among the only players that you can look at and say, okay, this kid has top 6 potential power play potential that, those kind of tools.
- [49:22]
B
Well then the one last thing I want to get you with Scott is there is a name on this list that first of all I, I hope I get correctly. Seamus Ignativicious. And he's from Lithuania. And I know that our listeners really love when guys pop up from unexpected places here. So tell me a little bit about Seamus Ignatovicious. Please.
- [49:41]
A
Talk about an unexpected place, right? Like this isn't even a kid from Bell. Like this isn't already. Lev shun off. This isn't some of the Latvians that have come through in recent years. This is a kid from Lithuania. They just, they aren't just like a second or third tier hockey playing country. They're a fourth or fifth tier hockey playing country. Has played a lot of hockey in Switzerland, obviously is now playing pro in the NL with Genev Servette over there and has been a good player, like a regular contributing player for them. He's big, he's strong, he skates well, he's very, very competitive. He's heavy. I don't think there's like he. I've seen him make some skill plays this year when I've watched him on Instat. I don't think he's like a skill guy, but he's got quick hands and he's got a decent release. And another guy who scored some goals at a good, very good pro level in the NL this year, but yeah, just where he comes from makes it as interesting as anything because he's, he's a unicorn in a lot of ways. And maybe we had that a little bit with Brand, Seg Nygaard and Solberg. But even Norway seems to be producing kids. Maybe not for the NHL draft, but there are a lot of top scorers in the J20 level, for example, who are from Norway now and they're feeding players into this. The Swedish junior ranks at a Decent clip. And, and Lithuania obviously is not that.
- [51:03]
C
And they're a world championship team too. Like, I know they're not like a top 10 country, but they, you know, top 15 hockey country. Norway is like, Is Lithuania even in the B pool for the men's world championship? I don't, I think, I think they are. I think they're in the, I think, I think they are. I'm not, I couldn't tell you 100 off top of my head, it kind
- [51:21]
A
of reminds of, of Liam like God bless him, but Liam Kirk, who.
- [51:28]
D
Yeah, from England and yeah, he was interesting but I think like Ignatovicious was a guy that is a good scouts. Yeah. Scouts were definitely going.
- [51:37]
A
Yes.
- [51:37]
D
Making special trips to see.
- [51:39]
C
They are in the B pool for. Just so our Lithuanian listeners aren't. Aren't.
- [51:43]
D
Yeah, but the B pool, like that's, that's a pretty, it's still there. They haven't been up in the senior division for, for some time. And yeah, I mean like, it's, it's a really interesting. I personally always find it interesting to see where players are kind of coming from in different, you know, guys that kind of beat the odds and are special. But yeah, I mean like, scouts were definitely taking special trips to go see him in Switzerland. I'm sure you had to twist their arm to go over to Switzerland. But either way, like, it's really, you know, when you see players like this and especially in a year like this where we're, you know, we're really scraping around for prospects, I feel like when we get in outside of this, this first round, I think when you start looking at depth, there's always going to be guys that pop. But you know, when you have this, a player with this athletic profile that's playing aggressively as he is in pro and with some maturity in his game, I think that that's, that's always going to, going to resonate. So, you know, hey, yeah, I, I, I, There are definitely, you know, I talked to teams a while back that, that were talking about him as a potential, you know, late first, early second round draft pick, which is probably where he ends up. And so yeah, if you're, if you're a Lithuanian hockey player by way of Texas by birth, I believe. But you know, those are, it's a pretty special thing. So he's definitely one of those players. I'm going to be intrigued to see ultimately what happens with them.
- [53:05]
B
Yeah. A name and a story to learn as we start getting closer to the 2026 NHL Draft. That is going to do it for us today. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect series. You can of course catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey on his podcast called up and more of Scott and Corey stuff on this draft class and many more on the athletic.com we'll talk to you soon.
- [53:31]
C
We're lost and kickoff's coming up. I don't want to miss the lineup.
- [53:35]
A
I'm gonna ask that man for directions.
- [53:37]
D
Hi there.
- [53:38]
B
We're trying to get to the stadium. Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree at this here road. Nah, I'm just kidding. Let me get my phone out. How is there signal out here? T Mobile and US Cellular are coming together so the network out here is huge. We get the same great signal as the city, saving a boatload with benefits. And there's a five year price guarantee too. Okay, here's the turn.
- [54:01]
A
Actually, can you pull up the way to a T Mobile store?
- [54:04]
B
America's best network just got bigger. Switch to T Mobile today and get built in benefits the other guys leave out plus our five year price guarantee. And now T Mobile is available at U S Cellular stores in Hermiston. Best Mobile Network Based on analysis by Uclo B test intelligence data second half of 2020 bigger network the combination of T Mobile's and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage price guarantee on talk text and data exclusions like taxes and fees apply. CT mobile.com for details.
- [54:29]
A
Where's your playlist taking you?
- [54:32]
B
Down the highway to the mountains or just into daydream mode while you're stuck in Traffic? With over 4,000 hotels worldwide, Best Western
- [54:41]
A
is there to help you make the
- [54:42]
D
most of your getaway, wherever that is.
- [54:45]
A
Because. Because the only thing better than a great playlist is a great trip.
- [54:51]
B
Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western, book direct and save@bestwestern.com there's one
- [55:00]
A
place for the newest drops in wellness
- [55:02]
B
and performance and the biggest sale of the year. It's the drop by gnc, curating the best of what's new, handpicked by the
- [55:09]
A
pros who know what works.
- [55:11]
B
And right now, get it all.
- [55:12]
A
Buy one, get one 50% off during the semiannual LiveWell sale. From crushing workouts to leveling up to nutrition and everything in between.
- [55:21]
B
Get the best deals on the latest innovations. All the newness is all on sale right now during the LiveWell sale on
- [55:27]
A
the drop by GNC.