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- [00:01]
Corey Pronman
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- [00:18]
Chris Peters
Who knew ice cold drinks could be so fire six? All new drinks are here now at McDonald's.
- [00:28]
Scott Wheeler
Refreshers contain caffeine.
- [00:30]
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- [01:50]
Chris Peters
This is the athletic hockey show prospect series.
- [02:00]
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Foreign.
- [02:05]
Scott Wheeler
Hey everybody. Max Boltman here alongside Scott Wheeler for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. Corey Promen and Chris Peters going to join us a little bit later on as we talk today, Scott, about your top 100 NHL drafted prospects ranking. We did a version of this in the winter. You update it now, obviously after the draft. There's a whole lot of new prospects and no surprise that one of those prospects, Gavin McKenna is in the top tier. He's actually at number one on this list and it's a tier of four players. And I'm curious for you, I know you felt McKenna and Stenberg are a dead heat pretty much the whole cycle you have them 1, 2 on this list. It's interesting, there's a couple guys from last year's class as well here though. Porter, Marta, Michael, Misa, how close is it between that group of four at the very top of your list?
- [02:49]
It was like a four horse race. Like I felt like I could have swatted those guys into any order you'd like. If you go back to my winter I do this list twice a year. If you go back to my winter list, I had Michael Misa ahead of Porter Martone. So that has has flipped since then. I think Martone's play sort of down the stretch, less so in the playoffs, but down the stretch of the regular season when he arrived, I think sort of edged him over Misa. But I thought about Martone 1. I thought about Martone sort of wedged in between McKenna and Stenberg. I thought about Misa 1, that it felt like those were the four guys and then you get into the D from the last few drafts and some of the forwards from the. Some of the other forwards from the last few drafts. But it felt like Martone and Misa from a year ago and McKenna and Stenberg from this year. All four of them were, were really, really sort of tightly grouped and that those are the four best prospects in the sport right now for me.
- [03:47]
So you, you deal with this. And Corey does too with his because his, his even include kind of full time NHL players. I know you still kind of. Even though Misa did play quite a bit in the NHL this year, he kind of classified as a prospect.
- [03:57]
Yeah.
- [03:58]
How do you compare those vastly different situations here? Because obviously like Martone comes up late in the year, it's a college hockey year, he's really good late in the
- [04:05]
year versus like Misa was playing his best hockey at that point in the season too. Like Misa's home stretch was actually his strongest NHL section of the year as well.
- [04:13]
Corey Pronman
So.
- [04:14]
Scott Wheeler
And I think was what makes it interesting. So you're comparing a. Even those two situations are different enough. And then you get into McKenna and Stenberg who haven't debuted yet. And like when you, when you're looking at these things, how do you parse? I think with Misa specifically is the most interesting. Like a guy who had a. I don't know. I don't think it was a disappointing rookie year by any means. He's an 18 year old. But it wasn't loud in the way that Martone's, you know, memory, I guess is.
- [04:37]
And you also have to consider that Misa is the. Of those four, Misa is the only center. Right. Like Misa is the only natural center. He's the best skater of those four and yet I've got him fourth on the list. So it's, it's, it's a tricky process to sort of parse through that. I ultimately came back to the offense that I believe is going to be there for McKenna and Stenberg is Just a tick higher than the ultimate offense that I think is going to be there for Martone and Misa. Honestly, the Sharks played a little bit of a part in it. Like it will just be harder for Misa. I try not to spend too much time sort of considering a situation this is ultimately supposed to be almost exclusively about the players, but it is hard not to consider that Macwen Celebrini is there and that that's going to influence the type of player that, that Michael Misa is going to be able to come in the prime of his career. So those, all of those things were considered the two way. Like Misa is probably the most well rounded sort of off puck player of those four. So he's a center, he's the better skater, all of it. So that it really came down to the offense. Like I think that nudged McKenna, Nudge, Stenberg. I think frankly that Martone probably has a little bit more offense than Misa despite the fact that obviously Misa out produced him in at the junior level. I think at the NHL level that, that Martone we're going to see become a premier, premier sort of modern power forward in the league that the size element sort of plays into. It's a complicated process. I, I think it ultimately I came back with, with the two kids from this year, I came back to just the belief that they're. I think they're going to have a little bit more offense.
- [06:16]
Yeah, we're going to get into some of the kind of specific players with, with Corey and Chris as they join us later on. But I did as I was looking at kind of the shape of this list. Scott, like the center conversation I think is one of the most interesting ones to try to rack these guys up. And you have the number two center, you mentioned Mises, the number one center as Caleb Malhotra from this past year's draft class. And there's a big gap, a bigger than I expected gap between him and Caleb Denoyer. And I was surprised at Anton Frondell as you're speaking of guys, really strong finishes to this NHL season was you know, more toward the back half of the teens here.
- [06:48]
Yeah, that's just comes back to, to the sort of complete game that I think Mel Holtra has now Dwayne has that. But I think there's more offense in Caleb. I think what we saw this year distinguished Malhotra. They're both Caleb distinguished Malhotra from Day Noyer in that sense. I think he's got a little bit more pace. I think He's a little bit better skater. I think once he fills out he's going to be a little bit bigger. I just think the very similar player type, very similar play style. They're just often described by the people who've coached them and been around them in sort of the very very similar words for the two way habits, for the commitment off the puck, for the leadership, the charisma, the captaincy, all of those sort of little things that are very important when you add them up. I just think there's a bit of an offense divider and a bit of a Runway divider in what I think Caleb can, Caleb Malhotra can get to over the next couple of years. The other centers were close though. Like despite the n maybe there being a bit of a number gap between him and Vgo Bjork or him and and Anton Frendell. If you go back to my draft ranking him and Vgo Bjork were only two spots apart. Right. Like they were very very close for me and I, I still feel they're very, very very close and I could flip flop on that. Frontel, I've always been a, I mean we've talked about friend for years on the pod now I've always been a little softer on him. I think he's probably best suited to be a winger. Frankly, I'm not convinced. I know they view him as a center in Chicago and they think that Connor Bedard, Anton Frondell and Frank Nazar are their three centers. I'm not convinced that Nazar and Frontel are centers. I think one of those guys may end up on the wing. I like Frendell as a potential sort of wall guy. I'm not sure he has the pace or the feet to play in the middle of the ice and be the best version of himself. I like him sort of being off the puck a little bit more, freeing himself for his shot a little bit more. So that factored into the frontelier sort of calculus. And I also just I I he's never produced like Friendl has never produced at a truly, truly, truly high end level. Like I've got a ton of time for the kid. The kid's awesome the player, the one timer but I, I don't think he's going to be like a premium, premium point guy in the NHL and so that that held back Frondell when I was sort of figuring out where those centers fit relative to the the true sort of high end wingers like and then teach again like may may be a center Like Teege played center all the way up. Then he played a couple of years of, of, of the wing. And Teej is very, very high on my list. But he played center all of last year and in speaking with people with Utah for a feature I did on him recently, I think they think that he, he might be a center for them long term. So Teege is kind of a wild card in there as a potential guy down the middle who could really point.
- [09:30]
It's funny as you say that about the Chicago centers, Frontell and Nazar, because I look at it and I think like, man, I, I think that Connor Bedard has proven he can play center in the NHL, but I still think the best version version of him might be on the wing. You might want centers to be friendella Nar. So it's puzzle pieces.
- [09:44]
Even Cancerov, who we all expect will be a winger in the NHL and has been a winger for most of his career, Cancer off was a center, a first line center in the KHL last year. So.
- [09:54]
Well, as we talk about these young players from Chicago, they have the most prospects in this top 100. They have eight. And some, some teams that are going to be really, really happy to be in this conversation. Among them are some teams that frankly needed to be after how their recent seasons have gone. The Flames and the Predators both with seven. The Sharks and the Canucks both with six. The Sharks I think are the best. I mean they are the best system.
- [10:14]
Chris Peters
Right.
- [10:15]
Scott Wheeler
If you, if you weighted this by
- [10:16]
one, all of those are in the top 32. So the Blackhawks have eight spread across the list. The Sharks, all six of their guys that made the list are high on the list. And then you've got guys who just miss the, the Quinton Mustys and the Luca Cagnones and those sort of peripheral pieces that you're just hoping make it rather than you're sure they're going to make it. Like, like the other six names. And the other piece of the puzzle is that the goalie list is released separately and that my number two ranked goalie is Joshua Ravensbergen. Right. So they've got the, the goalie coming as well. There, There's a lot of high end, high end quality there. The Blackhawks and the Flames and the Preds might have one or two more in terms of quantity on this list. But the true, the cream of the crop belongs to, belongs to the Sharks.
- [11:01]
Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. And, but I think for the Flames and the Predators specifically to be on here, I think it, it matters a lot to be in this group now, it's not quite the high end. The Flames do have Zane Perek up there, but I think the way they get there too is like a guy like Matve Greedon who is really high on your list. Who I don't know that a year or two ago we would have been talking about in that company.
- [11:20]
Yeah, Greedon was one of the risers of last year for me. Just incredibly smart. Has that sort of unique, rare quality to slow it down and pick things apart. Sees things on and you could see last year with the Flames, he saw things on the ice that nobody else on that Flames team was seeing. And I think that really elevated him. Like he wasn't just a top six player for them at the by the end of the year. Matt Van Green was their best offensive player up front by the end of the year and their most valuable player on the power play by the end of the year. And that's not to say that he's going to be a point per game guy or that he's going to be that on a version of that team that contends for a Stanley cup, that he was a top end skill guy on a very, very weak team from a skill standpoint. But he's now a piece of the puzzle. Like grading now looks like in a similar way that Chernyshev isn't a peripheral guy like a Quinton musty Chernyshev has pushed himself into. Okay, maybe I'm not a core piece in the way that a Misa or a Stenberg or a Celebrity or a Will Smith are, but I'm an important piece around that and not at the edges of that. Like I'm going to play potentially with those players. I think that's what Greed and now sense to the Flames. He's not going to be a number one or number two or number three by the time they're hopefully contending, but that's what he is for now. And you, you, you can feel a lot more comfortable now that Green is going to be a fourth forward for you. Like a fourth premium guy in the top six for you who can make plays and play on your be one of the four forwards on your power play. Like that's the kind of player that Greed and I think has now demonstrated he's capable of becoming.
- [12:58]
And with Nashville, I mean they've collected a pretty good chunk of good prospects here.
- [13:02]
Chris Peters
Right.
- [13:02]
Scott Wheeler
It's a similar story where, you know, Wyatt Collins, the highest ranked guy, I believe in this system for you and the most recent first Round pick, a lot of skill. Obviously how much of their system, though, is going to depend on what Brady Martin can get to because they use a really high pick on him last year, obviously famously ahead of Porter Martone player. I, you know, I really like Brady Martin. I thought his draft year, especially the way he closed his draft year was really strong, but there was always that lingering thing of like, how much offense is he going to get to? And that this past year did not change those questions.
- [13:31]
No, this, it was a tough year for Brady, not just in terms of him not pointing and sort of popping like you'd expect him to, but just the shoulder and the way that it bothered him and the way that it limits his, his game. He's a player who needs to be running guys over and in the thick of everything and physical and chippy and competitive and he still is those. He's was those things last year and his high water mark before the shoulder flared up on him again, his high watermark was actually the world juniors where he was arguably Canada's most consistent forward before he got banged up again. But it just, we weren't able to see it over a full season and we were able by contrast, to see Porter Martone do what he did at Michigan State and then step right into the NHL. And I know for a fact that in, in through my reporting on for my mock draft and everything that year, it was between Porter Martone and Brady Martin for the Predators. Like, they were close to picking Porter Martone and ultimately they take Brady, they take the sender, and then he has a year that isn't reflective of a top five pick, in part due to the injuries, but I think in part because he's not going to be a premium skill guy. Like people talked about him as Sam Bennett and Mike Richards and all of these guys. Very, very good players. Heartbeats of a team. Can he be a number one center on a Cup contender? I think the answer is no. Like, that's just not what he is. There are people who think Brady Martin's a winger, right? Like there's, there's debate even about that. So, yeah, it's, it could. He's going to be a good player for them. I think he will find it hard relative to some of the players in that class that have performed well and are going to continue to get better. I think it will be hard for them to look back on taking him at fifth overall and consider it a win.
- [15:16]
All right, well, let's take a quick break right there. We're going to bring in Corey and Chris. They're going to have their own things to bring up with you here on
- [15:20]
Chris Peters
this top 100 list.
- [15:21]
Scott Wheeler
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- [16:33]
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- [17:05]
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how much of their personal information is being bought and sold every day. Data brokers are making billions of billions pulling details about you from public records and the Internet, then packaging and selling it, usually without your consent. That's how your information lands in the hands of scammers, spammers, even stalkers. It's why you get endless robocalls and why ads seem to follow you everywhere. That's where Aura comes in. Aura actively removes your data from broker sites and keeps it off. They also instantly alert you if your information shows up in a breach or on The Dark web. But Aura goes beyond data protection. With one app you get a vpn, antivirus, password manager, spam call protection, dark web monitoring and even up to $5 million in identity theft insurance. All backed by 24, 7 US based fraud support. Other companies might sell just credit monitoring or even just a vpn. Aura gives you all of it together at the same price competitors charge for just one service. Start your free trial today at aura.com safety. Protect yourself now at aura.com safety.
- [18:20]
Scott Wheeler
All right, we are back and joining us now the Athletics, Corey Promen and flow hockey's Chris Peters. And guys, you know the drill here. We usually do this on Corey's lists where list comes out and we have Chris and Scott pick, pick it apart. We're going to invert things little bit this way. So Corey, as you look at Scott's top 100 here, what are the, what's the first thing that I guess jumps out to you about? You know whether where guys are placed.
- [18:43]
Corey Pronman
The first thing that really stood out to me was where he had Dimitri Savage, 42 or 41 I believe. And that's still a good spot on the list. And I understand where there'd be some reservations on Simischev coming into the year. And you look at his junior scoring record, you look at his KHL scoring record, he, he, he was always like this athlete, the 6566 defenseman who can skate. But like there what you always questioned like where's the offense. But then he goes to the American League this year and I think he showed you why Utah took him fifth overall, sixth overall wherever he went because, and he showed, you know he was a top, top player in the American league as a 20 year old, produced, played all situations. So you know I look at him versus Malte Gustafsson who you have about five, six spots ahead. I look at him versus Sam Dickinson who you have like 20 to 25 spots ahead. Like what's like what's the rationale there?
- [19:37]
Scott Wheeler
I, I think it's the, I think it's still a question of the offense. Like despite the fact that he played on the power play in the AHL and pointed in the ahl, I don't think that's ever going to be a role that he plays in the NHL I expect. And I'm not sure that Malte Gustafson does either. Although I could see multi on like a PP2 and I think Sam Dickinson, same thing, probably a P2 guy. I just wonder what the offense is going to look like. Like I wonder if he's Just an excellent skating big, excellent defending, sort of 20, 25 point guy rather than that sort of 40, 45 point guy that I would have higher in the list, which is what I think, for example, that Dickinson is going to be.
- [20:17]
Corey Pronman
You think Dickinson is going to get to 45 points on a regular basis?
- [20:22]
Aura Advertisement
Yeah.
- [20:22]
Corey Pronman
Okay, so why the gap between him and Malte? Out of curiosity? It feels like they're, they're placed. It feels like they have almost identical skills.
- [20:29]
Scott Wheeler
They're close. Yeah, they're very, very close. In terms of the profile of a 6 foot 4 good skater. I think Malte at this age is harder and more physical and more competitive and just plays a firmer game than Simischev did at the same age. And I'm sort of baking in some Runway there for Maltese.
- [20:49]
Corey Pronman
Like I said, I just see a guy who was, I would argue he was one of the five to seven best defensemen in the American League last year as a 20 year old. Like I thought, like I, I understood the concerns coming into the year. I just thought it would have, I thought the year he had this year would have moved the needle a little bit more.
- [21:05]
Scott Wheeler
And he is higher. Like I, I, I, I'm doing my redraft. It'll come out the week after, sort of my final top 100 does, but I'm doing my 20, 23 redraft and ranking review and I've got him. I think I've got Simishev, 12th or 13th in that class. You've got the sort of true, true premium, eight or nine guys that have already sort of really established themselves as very good NHL players. And then there's a group of four or five guys that I think are in that next year. Like I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have taken him fifth overall, but he was closer to fifth. He's, I think he's closer to fifth overall than maybe I gave him credit for in his draft year when I had him as, as kind of a, a late first guy. So I have, I have moved my, over the last three years since he was picked. Like I have moved my. He went assessment of him up or sixth.
- [21:52]
Corey Pronman
Yes. Yeah, yeah. What it's worth, if I was doing a redraft, he'd be, which I will do as well in a month or two. He's, he's gonna be six on my redraft just as enough. Okay. So we just, we have a little bit of a distinction there.
- [22:03]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, yeah. So I, I had him like 11 to 11 to 13.
- [22:07]
How different is he from Simon Edmondson for you, because that's a guy whose production has been in the 25 to 30 range, but he's playing 22 minutes a night. Top pair minutes. I know Detroit' not a playoff team, but it's like a clear top four. And I think. I think solidly top pair projection there.
- [22:21]
Chris Peters
And I.
- [22:21]
Scott Wheeler
When I've watched so much of it, he looks quite similar to Edmondson.
- [22:25]
I think, again, more. Edmondson's more physical, more competitive, and I think he's more skilled. Like, I. I had Edmondson. I like. I think I had him at like three at my list at one point in his draft year, and he was sort of top six or seven on my list for the entirety of his draft year. Like, I was a big believer in his offense. I thought he had, like, legit hands, showcase legit hands in. In Sweden in his draft year. And I just wasn't there on Simishev at that same age. And I think since then, I would just say that we've. We've obviously seen it in Edmonton. He's also older, obviously different draft class, but I just think that the hardness. A little bit more hardness in Edmondson and a little bit of a higher skill grade for me. Like, I'm not. Despite the points that we saw in the last year, I'm not convinced. Convinced that there's, like, legit offense in Simischev.
- [23:14]
All right, Chris, so that was Corey's first guy that jumped out to him. When you saw this list for the first time, what was the first. What was the first name that looked out of place, one direction or the other for you?
- [23:22]
Chris Peters
Yeah, you know, it's. It's interesting because I don't like. I looked at Scott's list and I was like, you know, I. I tend to really get on Corey and get my. Get my backup, just. I think, because I enjoy it. I didn't. I didn't. I didn't have. I didn't have as many, like, passionate gripes, but one. One name that stood out to me, and I think it's probably because of his draft slot and, And. And I actually probably would have ended up being lower on this player than Scott was, and that's David Reinbacher. And, you know, that's a top five pick. I. I don't know what he is. I've watched him a lot in the ahl. I've seen a player that. That can do some things. I've seen a player that I always want to see more from. And, you know, Scott has them, like, in a. I think a reasonable range. But it's like, you know, when I look at, I see some of the guys behind him, whether it's one spot, Sam Renzel or even, you know, K Sean Hison, others that I think are probably going to end up having a better offensive profile overall than Reinbacher. And like, I, I just, I still don't know. And I think part of it's the injuries and like he hasn't had necessarily the smoothest development path, but as I watched him this past year, I saw a player that was better but not good enough. And, and the thing is, is that I, I wonder long term where he ultimately is going to fit as an NHL player. I mean, I think he will be an NHL player, but not anywhere close to the number five pick value. And I think Scott's rankings suggest that as well. But, you know, for a team that has been so good at the draft of late and getting their guy and, you know, this is one that I feel like is ultimately going to end up as a miss relative to the slot value. I just, you know, I'm more curious. Scott just in the. For, you know, where you think he's going.
- [25:17]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah.
- [25:18]
Chris Peters
Next. Because that's my thing is like, I feel like the upside is still marginal. Like you can, like, is it a purely upside bet or do we think that, you know, this is kind of the make or break season for him?
- [25:30]
Scott Wheeler
I think it's. I think we're in the almost the exact same spot on him, frankly. Like, I, I think we're aligned on him that, that range of, of the list, sort of the late 40s. And I've got him 48 into the early 50s. There's six or seven D in that group that all are in a run that I feel kind of this, like, I don't know what Axel Sanding Pelk is. I don't know what Sam Renzel is. I don't know what K Sha Na is. I don't know what Redeem Merka is. Those are all kind of guys that clump together for me as. Are they going to be good NHL players? Yes. Do any of those guys look like they're going to be core pieces? I don't think so. And maybe one of those guys breaks. Breaks right. And becomes that like I view Reinbacker the same way I did on drafting. He's another 20, 23 guy. So he's top of mind people for that redraft for the same reason. But he's in, he's in the late teens in my redraft. And I just, like, I just view him at this point as like, he's going to be a number four, number five guy, skates well, he's competitive, he defends hard, he's got enough poise on the puck, but he's not going to be a premium. Premium. He's not going to be. It's the same conversation Max and I had before you guys hopped on about Brady Martin. Like, he's just not going to be a go to top of the lineup, 25 minute a night guy. And maybe he is that. Like, maybe he'll be that kind of guy at the for a couple of years. Like maybe in his late 20s he becomes that and he's making six or seven million dollars and he's a really good player. But I think by and large he's Reinbacker. You kind of have to project him at this point as kind of a bubble, second pair, third pair guy. I don't know if Corey would maybe disagree with that, but I kind of view him as a four or five.
- [27:14]
Chris Peters
Yeah, no, yeah. So that I was actually going to ask Corey because I know you were, you were definitely higher on, on Reinbacher at the as a draft, I believe than, than at least I was. You know, where what, what you've made of his progression and just kind of what, what ultimately that projection looks like these days.
- [27:33]
Corey Pronman
I think a four is fair. I think not saying he had a great year, but I still think he had a good year.
- [27:38]
Chris Peters
Like, yeah, it
- [27:42]
Corey Pronman
was one of the best teams in the league. He played heavy all situations minutes. I know he didn't have like off the charts offense, but there was still offense there when he went to couple. He's kind of played with the national team recently. Like, I think, you know, he's done well enough. Like, I think they're still like, he's in skate, he can move a puck, he competes. Good skill. It's just not elite skill especially you know, it's just he's a little vanilla. Like there's nothing about his game that there's no one trait you hang your hat on. But he's a good player. I think he plays the NHL. I think he could play in the NHL this season, quite frankly. But it's. I think, yeah, it's looking at that draft and I think you're asking like, how does he compare to like Tommy Willander as opposed to how does he compare to like Ryan Leonard and Will Smith and, and Mitch Colin and those guys at the tippity top of the draft?
- [28:30]
Chris Peters
Yeah, one Other note, too, just on this. And I, you know, is more just as I was kind of going through. And as, you know, you get further down the list, the D class really thins out fast on this top 100, which, which struck me. You know, obviously we see so many of the guys that just went higher on the list, which makes a ton of sense to me based on what we saw. But, yeah, I mean, I think we're seeing a lot of those guys where, you know, some of those guys have, you know, matriculated that are their draft peers and matriculated to the NHL and aren't part of this. But then you look at kind of where we're at and it's like, wow, you know, there's. Yeah, it's, it's. It's. It's interesting to see just kind of the, the thinning of the herd and, and I can't really argue with it.
- [29:10]
Corey Pronman
Well, a lot of the premium. The premium athletes all go centering B. And they all go really early.
- [29:15]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah.
- [29:16]
Scott Wheeler
And there were 70 forwards and, and 30 D on the list. And in theory, it should be six and four. Right. Like, it should be 60, 40 rather than 70, 30 if you're just talking about a percentage of NHL players. And yet the guy, like, I think the final cut on D for me on the list was Oliver Bonk. Like, even the guys that, that are in my missed cuts list that I'll highlight in the piece, that I highlight in the piece, they're not like, they're not like, Oliver Bunk's not going to move the needle for, for the Flyers. Right. Like, he's just, he's a piece of the puzzle.
- [29:47]
Corey Pronman
I thought Thomas Lavoie could have made it on there. Like, I thought, like, he had a really good year, real good playoffs. That was one name that I thought probably deserved. Other than him, there was no other defenseman I saw that. I thought, like, oh, there's. I can't believe that guy didn't make it.
- [30:01]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [30:02]
Scott Wheeler
Corey, one of the conversations we had was about the center grouping. And one of the names who's in that cluster is James Hagens. He's pretty high in that cluster. He comes in as the number four center, number 13 player overall, but he's ahead of guys like Anton Frindell and Michael Hage, Caleb denoyer, Jake o'. Brien. I was curious, like, what did you think of the Hagan's placement in the overall kind of center mix here?
- [30:23]
Corey Pronman
I'm not surprised because we had this conversation, you know, this time last year. And you know, Scott had. Hagen's very high and so did Chris and I was a little bit lower and I wouldn't have taken him over, over Denoe. I still, I wouldn't take him now over Frondell. I wouldn't take him now over Jacob Bryant. But I understand like, you know, he had a good year. I don't know, they had a great year, particularly his international. His world juniors were just okay. His world championships was less than okay. But his, his Boston College games were, were excellent. So I understand where that comes from. But I would, I have some reservations. Like I think he's a really good skater. I think he's, he's been a little up and down offensively the last two years. Like, I think it's good offense, I don't think it's special small guy offense. I don't think his compete is special, especially for his size. So like, I prefer Denouye, I prefer Frondel, I prefer Oberon. I think there's more project, there's more to project there. But like I said, I mean we've had these debates before, so I'm not really surprised. Yeah.
- [31:24]
Scott Wheeler
All right, Chris, any other names for you here on this list that you want to hit before we move on?
- [31:29]
Chris Peters
Yeah, so one of the names that jumped out immediately and I know I started with Reinbacher, but I wanted to get to this one as well. And that Zane Parak, as high as he is, I have some deep concerns about his all around game. I think the offensive game is good. Good. I do also have some concerns about just kind of what we saw from him last season. You know, he's always pointing, which is, which is great, you know, like at the World Juniors and other things like that. But I also thought at the World Juniors, as much as he pointed up, there was a huge, he was a liability at that tournament. And then on top of that, you know, really didn't look prepared for the NHL. And I have some deep concerns about the developmental path for him going forward now. He would have been a player that was tailor made for the argument to get a guy into the AHL at his 19 year old season. And, and I think that that's ultimately where he should have been last year, which was not possible based on the rules at that point. So, you know, but, but the thing is, is that I don't see a player that I could rely on in enough situations to warrant him. Like, you know, if we're saying he's going to be among the top defensemen in this, you know, this next wave of players, I just don't think I would ever have enough trust in the player to, to, to play the heavy minutes, to play anything where, you know, I feel like we'd end up on the minus far too much with him on the ice. Now I do think that the offense and things we, we probably had some of these same arguments about some of the other, you know, the other highly offensive defensemen over the years. I also don't know that like he has dealt with adversity all that well in terms of like when games are hard, when he is played physically. You know, those are the things where I have some more concerns just about the makeup of the player to get forward. So I am prepared, Scott, for your impassioned defense of Zane Perek.
- [33:37]
Scott Wheeler
I think seeing him, if you're, if you're watching him in the league last year, it was too much for him. And yes, so, so I understand, I understand that. But we, he shouldn't have been in the league, which is a point that you already made. He should not have been in the league. I think at every level we've seen him play at previously, he has been a better defender than he has ever been given credit for. He was a excellent, excellent defender in the Memorial cup against the best forward lines in junior hockey. He was a, arguably the best defender across two different seasons in the ohl. He penalty. He was a go to penalty killer for that team. He played 30 minutes a night. He was never sheltered. There are things in the makeup, I think, that make you pause, especially how, how much he gets pushed off the puck. That is my wor in terms of his ability to defend at a high enough level to get out onto the ice enough to point. I think if he's out onto the ice, he's going to point in a way that none of the other players that are sort of in that cluster of D that I have at the top of my list will point. Whether that's Chase, Reed, Daxon, Rudolph, Albert, Smiths, Carson, Carl, all the players who are kind of in that, that cluster of D, once you get through the true, true top four guys that we talked about off the top of the show. I also think that had I put almost any other prospect at five or six or seven on the list, you can look at that player after the McKenna's and the Stenbergs and the Martones and go, I don't know whether I feel good about that kid at five or six or seven. Like, I don't know whether I feel good that chase Reed's at 5. I don't know whether I feel good that Caleb Malhotra is at 8. Like, I think there's a bit of a separation between the, the Porter Martons and. And the Ivar Stenbergs and the Gavin McKenna's and some of those other kids. And so I did have a putting players at sort of 5, 6, 7. And that's why that tier from 5 through to the 20s is as large as it is. It's normally not that large. Like, there's just a lot of players that I think are in that group. Could you put Chase Reed or Albert Smiths, my other sort of D that are right there. Carson Carls ahead of. Ahead of Zane Perek? Absolutely you could. Do they defend better than Zane Perek? Absolutely they do. I think part of it comes down to thinking that I think he's a better defender than people realize. I think he's got a good stick. I like his feet. I think he's going to be a passable defender and I think the offense is like borderline special. Like, I think he's going to be one of the big, big pointing defensemen in the league in the way. Not, maybe not in the way that Erik Carlson was. But there are some rhymes and reasons between that sort of lackadaisical, that sort of Eric Carlson, Evan Bouchard, the lackadaisical defender. Sometimes he's got one hand on his stick, sometimes he gets pushed off pucks. But he's a. I think he's a better defender and I felt that Evan Bouchard was a better defender through the early years of his career than people gave him credit for. And I think I feel the same way about Zane. Like, I think he's going to get there defensively. I don't think he's going to be a liability defensively. And then I think the offense is the realest offense of any of these deep prospects. And it might not even be close for me. Like, I think the offense is legit.
- [36:47]
Corey Pronman
Question, question. If the offense is so special, why do you have nine points this season?
- [36:52]
Scott Wheeler
Because he shouldn't. He was playing at a level that he wasn't ready for. He was playing at a level that he shouldn't have been at.
- [36:57]
Corey Pronman
But I. Even if he gets.
- [36:59]
Scott Wheeler
There's no other than Matthew Schaefer. Other than Matthew Schaefer and Lane Hudson, name literally one young defenseman who's had success at that age in the NHL in recent years.
- [37:08]
Corey Pronman
I didn't say have success. I said, like, show. I just. You're Talking about special offense. That's why like couldn't he just like run into some power play points at some point here kind of thing? Like that's, that, that's my concern is like I think. Yeah, I agree with you. If it goes well, he could be Bouchard. Like he think there, there's. He does have that kind of sense. The skill, the shot. I just worry like I don't know if the skating special enough. I don't know if the offense is so special that like this could be Boqvist too. If it really doesn't go well. Like there's like I think there's those risks. Whereas when I get to read, when I get to Rudolph and Carl's and Smiths, like I'm not. I think they could be really, really good NHL players if it goes well. And I'm not thinking like it could be a complete disaster if it doesn't go well either. So that's my reservation for getting involved for all those guys.
- [37:56]
Scott Wheeler
I think from like a game breaking standpoint, a playmaking standpoint that he's a, a way higher skill grade than, than a guy like. Yes, like even if it's Brand Clark
- [38:06]
though, like let's say br, that's kind of a middle ground one in that mold.
- [38:09]
Corey Pronman
Right.
- [38:09]
Scott Wheeler
I think he's getting, I think, I mean he was way more productive than Brant Clark in the ohl. Like he's, he's done, he has done other than last year. He has been that guy. Like he has been the pre. He has shown that he's the premiums, that he's the hundred point guy, that he's the, the game breaker offensively in a way that none of these other D have.
- [38:29]
Corey Pronman
No, he is, he's got great, great offense. I'm not disputing that he has offense ahead of a bunch of these other guys kind of thing. Just to me it's like is it special, special offense? Like is it the, you know, the Hudson level offense? Like I have a hard time getting myself there from what he showed this season. Quite frankly. He just didn't have. I think you can't just write off the whole season because he was supposed to be in ahl. He played. It was a, it went really badly.
- [38:54]
Scott Wheeler
I mean you also have to factor in that he was extremely productive in the AHL as a teenager. That he had 14 and 7 at the World juniors. Like there were. It wasn't a complete disaster of a season for him. The NHL was, was very, very hard.
- [39:09]
Corey Pronman
You know, he's a very good player. The Offense. The brain. The brains is like off the charts. Like it's like, it's just like to me like getting them over Carl's and Rudolph and Smiths and Reed. Like to me like there's. They. Those are also really good players with a lot of.
- [39:24]
Scott Wheeler
I do have reading but. Yeah.
- [39:25]
Chris Peters
Okay.
- [39:26]
Corey Pronman
Okay. Sorry. Sorry. But I guess. But the same point argue applies I think to those guys. I think they all have a lot of offense. Like Rudolph showed a crazy offense in the Western League this year. He's. But he's also 63 and isn't a major minus defensively for. As an example.
- [39:39]
Chris Peters
Corey.
- [39:40]
Scott Wheeler
I know when you do your version of this you include NHL player. So it's not apples to oranges but among the.
- [39:44]
Chris Peters
The kind of this player pool.
- [39:45]
Scott Wheeler
Like where do you think you'd ballpark him like in the early 20s or like where would you have teens.
- [39:52]
Corey Pronman
Let's just say. Scott not gonna like it.
- [39:56]
Scott Wheeler
No, I'm, I'm interested though.
- [39:59]
Corey Pronman
It'll be after 50.
- [40:01]
Scott Wheeler
Okay.
- [40:03]
With. Without NHL players. Okay. Okay. Okay.
- [40:07]
So on this version though, I think it's that. That probably translates to something more like 2020.
- [40:13]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And.
- [40:15]
Scott Wheeler
But I mean early 20s is the back half of that tier. Like early 20s is where I have like Sam, like Sam Dickinson was kind of in that range. Yeah.
- [40:25]
Corey Pronman
Like I hate to transition us to the next section already, but I like Hudson's projection. Cole Hudson's projection more than Perex. I feel like he's one. He played well versus NHL is in his brief stint this year. But I feel like he competes harder and there's a little bit more that will. I would have him over as an example.
- [40:45]
Chris Peters
Yeah, that's, that's, that's probably my, one of my overriding concerns when I said like, you know, dealing with adversity and different things. I think there are, there are some ways like it always felt like there was a way to get PAREC out of a game, whereas I didn't see that with some of these other games.
- [41:04]
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- [42:45]
Scott Wheeler
Corey, you had one more player that you wanted to raise with Scott. Before we go to a couple of the guys that are the non first rounders at the top of this list,
- [42:52]
Corey Pronman
Perot, which I don't think is a surprise from people who've heard us talk about this before, but I just like look at him. Ahead of Hage, ahead of Dinoe, ahead of Jake O', Brien, Cullen, McQueen, like these are all like premium, premium pro prospects. Guys who have, you know, major offense to go with like significant, you know, you know, tools and size, skating product, you know, overall production profiles. And they got like this slow 511 winger who had a really nice year playing on two bad teams in Hartford and the Rangers. And I like him a lot. He's a, he's a good player. But like these are like potential. Like The Noia and O' Brien are potential, McQueen are potential top six centers in the NHL. Like that's like, like I just can't get there. Like you have to think basically he's Lucas Raymond, right? Like that's basically what you have to think at this point to get him, to get him above those guys.
- [43:49]
Scott Wheeler
And I don't think you have to think that he's Lucas Raymond to get him ahead of Hage and, and Daneway. Like I just think you have to view him as a potential first line winger where those guys are potential second line players. Like I think that's and, and even if he is a second line player. I think they're close which is why they're close on the list. Gabe Pro is the all time single season points record holder at the NTDP. Still stands. He had a 60 point college season. He has pointed in the AHL. He made a ton of plays on that Rangers team. Towards the end of the season there were some ups and downs for him at the H. At the NHL level he was a driver on a terrible AHL team offensively and late in the year he was a driver. Say what you will about the team, he was still a driver on an NHL team. From a skill, playmaking, getting his line mates into good spots, putting pucks into good spots, execution, power play. Like I, I just think we've with with Gabe like I see no reason why he doesn't belong with Berkeley Catton and Michael Hage and Caleb De Noyer. With what he has accomplished over the course of the career with the way that he thinks his game thinks the game. I think Gabe is, is one of the smartest, most intelligent offensive players outside the nh. Like outside the NHL in terms of this group. It just in terms of the way that he thinks it offensively, the way he reads it. And I think the skill level is high, high end and I, I've never felt that the competitiveness and the skating were, were nearly the, the sort of marks against him that some have. Like he, I think, I think he skates fine. I think he works.
- [45:25]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think the skating is an issue. I think he competes very well for a small guy. I just kind of feel like you basically are like hoping he's Marcia. So now like it's like I don't know man.
- [45:35]
Chris Peters
I think I, I think he's going
- [45:37]
Scott Wheeler
to be like a 60, 70 point guy in the league.
- [45:40]
Chris Peters
I think he's going to be more than that. Ooh, I think he's going to be more than that. So let's go back in time if you will to 2013-14 with the, the Tampa Bay Lightning. Nikita Kucherov 18 points of 52 games. 18 points of 52 games. Gabe Perot arguably was a more impactful rookie than Nikita Kucherov was. And I think at the I don't think he's going to be Kucherov level points. I'm not to say that, I'm not saying that he is one of the most intelligent players on this list right here. I think he has among the best hockey sense offensively of any player here. The question is going to be and what Kucherov's benefit was was that he did have one of the elite teams that he walked into where it was Stamkos, it was Headman, it was, you know, other guys. Like that's not the advantage that, that, that Gabe Perot is going to have. But I think we at the top of his projection, I do think he can be a 100 point player in the league. I think he can play top line minutes and I think that this is, this is one where I, I was less convinced of that before this season. I, I, I, the games that I watched of him with the Rangers late in the year, I was like, okay, it's gonna work. It's not only gonna work, it's probably gonna work really well. The question is gonna be where, where do the, what's that?
- [47:08]
Corey Pronman
How's he doing for Marco Rossi? Same age.
- [47:11]
Scott Wheeler
I think he's way, way, way smarter. Like the, the offensive IQ is at a higher level.
- [47:17]
Chris Peters
Yeah. And the role, and the role is going to be different. I mean Rossi is not like, I mean he's, he's, he's a center for one. You know, like, I mean like there's, there's, there's a lot of things that he's going to have to do. But I, I think like I look back and I say if they can get some support. Because the thing that Gabe has always done well is make others better and also take advantage of the skills around him. Now he's had great players that he's been able to play with coming up through the ranks, namely Will Smith and Ryan Leonard. I've always thought that because of the physical talents and the more flashy talents that the players have had, he's been underrated. But I think the brain and the hockey sense of him is Kucherov level, which I think, I think closer to
- [48:05]
Corey Pronman
Michelle than you are off quite frankly.
- [48:07]
Chris Peters
Like, I think crazy. I think like, like that's bananas. Like, like watch a fricking game. Like, seriously. I mean like are like Michelle, come on, man. A guy that could not even get qualified this year. Give me a break.
- [48:22]
Corey Pronman
Amazing in the American League and he had that great throw in the NHL and then he had a wall. He's 511, he can't skate.
- [48:29]
Chris Peters
And that's what does not have the level of hockey sense of Gabe Pearl. Get the heck out of here.
- [48:33]
Scott Wheeler
And pre nh pre NHL. It' even, it's not even close.
- [48:37]
Corey Pronman
He lit up lika. Yeah, he was drafted. I don't know. I think you got, I think you
- [48:43]
Chris Peters
guys, this is a wide gap. I mean the name, I mean I
- [48:45]
Scott Wheeler
thrown around on both sides here.
- [48:47]
Chris Peters
Corey has always hated Gabe Perot. He's always, he's always hated him. He's never liked him. He's never liked him.
- [48:55]
Scott Wheeler
Chris, though, if, if you are saying that he's more than a 60 to 70 point player, like, do you think he's the best of those three? Smith, Leonard, Perot.
- [49:03]
Chris Peters
I think all of them are going to be like, I think, I think that was a. Ryan Leonard's a 40 goal scorer. I mean, the way the Sharks are going, well, Will Smith is going to be a 100 point player. Like, I mean, like these are, these are legit. That's the one. It's going to be the greatest line that, that, you know, probably one of the greatest lines in the history of the NTDP outside of probably Matthews, Tachuk and Roslovic. So, you know, like, that's, that's where, you know, I just think that there is an absolute chance that Gabe is going to be, you know, a top line, productive player.
- [49:38]
Scott Wheeler
All right, that really good stuff there. Last thing I want to hit before we go, Scott, is there's three players. Most of the guys at the top of this list, no surprise, are first round picks and in many cases high first round picks. There's three guys in the top two tiers, which comprises the top 28 spots on your list, that are not first rounders. One of them Corey already touched on, and Cole Hudson. And it's telling that the Guashi Capitals, by the way, have two of these guys because another one is Ilya Protus and Scott Ilya produces a guy that we've certainly talked about on this list or on this podcast, but a guy who is really, really high on this list, ahead of some much more household names. I just wanted to give you a little bit of a chance to talk about Protus and how he's put himself in this territory. His spot on this list is number 14. So ahead of Anton Frondell, ahead of Caleb Denal, ahead of Jake o', Brien, like guys who went really high in the draft. Ilya Produs is now in that company and in your list ahead of that company.
- [50:31]
I just think there are, you can count on one hand the number of players in the NHL that look like him, one of them being his brother. He has had two of the best seasons in the OHL and in the HL for a player his age in recent memory, and he's done it back to back his season in Windsor. I thought he was the, arguably the best player in that league. And his season in the AHL this year. He was, he was a dominant force at times, and not just a dominant force because of his size. Like, legit, legit, legit puck skill. I actually think from a. From a pure skill standpoint that Alexi, his older brother, does it more with his size, and Ilia does it more with hands and with small areas and with making plays that you just don't see big men that size make. I'm just fascinated by him. Like, I just think he's such a unique player and what he's done over the course of the last two seasons, I think put, like, if you're redrafting that class today, like, he might be a top 10 pick. Like, I think that's the kind of progression that we've seen with him. And it's. It's like you watch back through some of the goals that he scored, some of the plays that he's made. Like, he's not just a big guy who's in the right spots and making the odd play. Like, he makes legit, like, highlight quality plays and has at lower levels. We'll see what it looks like at the NHL. He pointed right away in the NHL last year, but it was a brief stint. And the way that they've added on the wing, I do think there's a bit of a, like, with Kyru and some of those guys now, I don't think he's necessarily going to play to start the year in the NHL and he's going to be in the NHL to start the year, but I think he might be in more of a bottom six role after they put him in an opportunity to start his NHL career in a top six role. But I think he's going to get there, like, within a year or two. I think you're going to see him in that kind of a role, and he's going to be a pretty unique player in the league. And to have both of them. Them be what they are and what they could be, I just think it's a really, really compelling sort of pair of. Of players for the. For that team.
- [52:27]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I, I'm fascinated by him. I, you know, just the progression, what we've seen. I, I agree with you, Scott. I had zero issue with where he ended up on the list. You look at the guys that have, you know, in the AHL that have played at his age, in terms of raw points in the last 20 years, he's second only behind J.J. paturkin. I think it's by two points. And then, you know, points per Game, it's a little bit different where he's just slightly under a point per game, but he's still top 10 in the last 20 years. You look at the names on that list. Willie Nylander, Miko Rant and David Pasnak, Phil Thomasino, Trevor Connelly this last year, Lucas Reichel, Constant Helenius, Alexander Holt. So there's a mixed bag there in terms of the players, but you look at the top of that list and, and then on top of it, he's, he's a monster of a human being, you know. So like it's like, okay, yeah, I see all those guys. That's great.
- [53:13]
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Wow.
- [53:13]
Chris Peters
Okay. This guy is six foot six. So you know, like it's, he's, he's a remarkable talent. I think watching him with Hershey and this was a down year for Hershey. Hershey kind of turned the team over to the young guys. It was him and Andrew Crystal and it was like, you know, a bunch of other players that, that, you know, normally that's a very veteran laden team. They didn't have the success as a team that they normally have. But he was a, he was the show. He was absolutely the show there. He did it in the playoffs, he did it in the regular season. I think he's, he's on a, on a remarkable track here. And what a great find for, for, for the caps. I mean, 75th overall out of the Des Moines Buccaneers goes to Windsor, destroys the ohl, then comes to the ahl. I was like, how's this going to work? Destroys the, you know, that, you know, relative destroys the AHL for a player of his age. So I'm really excited to see where he goes. I think, think I agree with Scott, like the transition to the NHL is going to probably be a little bit different in the role. And based on what Washington added this year, it kind of pushes him down the depth chart. But at the same time that's a guy that, you know, if he's continuing on this trajectory, I really don't know how, how much like the sky could be the limit for him on this, on this, you know, this potential. I'm fascinated by the player.
- [54:28]
Scott Wheeler
It is interesting that all these, this profile, whether it's produce, Jack Nesbitt, Ethan Belches like Bill Bowler just has a magnet for this kind of like, yeah, if you offense. So yeah, you're going to Windsor six, six with hands.
- [54:40]
Chris Peters
Yeah, it's like Vince McMahon era, you know, even green trees. Yeah, green tree like they, they had, they had a lot of trees last year. Yeah.
- [54:49]
Scott Wheeler
No kidding. All right. And then the last one that I want to talk about, Corey, you can go back to Cole Hudson too, Corey, if you want to, but I felt like you. You gave a pretty good overview earlier. But Roman Cancer off is another guy here, and I know that this is a guy who Chicago fans are really excited about what he could bring to their lineup up this year.
- [55:04]
Corey Pronman
Cancer of has done as a pro has been extremely impressive. He was one of the very best players on one of the very best teams in the KHL last season. You know, he skates really well. He's got a lot of offensive skill. I think people will look at his size on when they look up his stats and be like a 59 winger. Like, how does that translate? And the way he plays, I think is going to translate into significant NHL offense. This is a hard guy. This is a guy who gets to the neck that he wins a lot of battles. He's chippy, like, like.
- [55:33]
Scott Wheeler
And he, he had great skater.
- [55:35]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. Like, he has all the, he has all the aesthetics. But then like, the way he plays, it's not like he's not cap resolve, but like, that's what made Caprazov successful as a pro was his compete combined with his skill. And I think that Cancerov has the makings of a potential top six forward in the NHL.
- [55:53]
Chris Peters
How'd you guys feel about his postseason? Because that was a different, you know, that he, he. He was far less productive at that stage. And also, like, his points were kind of bunched. There were a lot of games where he wasn't, you know, wasn't as much of a factor. Is that. Is that a concern for either you guys?
- [56:10]
Scott Wheeler
Jarovsky too? Yeah, they all, all those kids, all the top rushing kids struggled in the playoffs this year.
- [56:18]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. And that's why I always think it's impressive when a guy does do well. The playoffs are. In the MHL playoffs, the gap between the best and the worst teams are so big in that league that when they get to the playoffs, it's close. And then when a guy like a Pugachev has like a good playoffs or Stern has a good playoffs, it's. Never mind Demidov too. It's always like much more impressive than the regular season.
- [56:35]
Scott Wheeler
For sure.
- [56:37]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [56:37]
Corey Pronman
I don't think it's a big issue just because one, he's just so young. Like, he's just. There's only a couple of years away from the draft and the level that he showed in the regular season is still. Like I said, I think you have reasonable debates about whether it's special offense, special small guy offense offense. But I I still think you can get to second line offense, maybe first line offense if it really goes well.
- [56:58]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I can buy that.
- [57:00]
Scott Wheeler
All right, let's wrap there. A lot of good stuff today. Really would encourage everyone to go read Scott's top 100 drafted NHL prospect story too. And there's more there too that we certainly could have gotten to today. But that is going to do it for us. Thanks for listening this episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect series. Remember, you can catch more of Chris over at Flow Hockey on his podcast podcast called Up. We'll talk to you soon.
- [57:24]
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