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- [00:00]
Corey Pronman
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Scott Wheeler
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- [00:31]
Farnoosh Tarabi
Hi, this is Farnoosh Tarabi from so Money with Farnoosh Tarabi and today I want to talk to you about Boost Mobile Quick Money Tip Stop paying a carrier Tax if your phone bill feels trapped in a pricey plan, this is your sign to unlock savings. Boost Mobile helps you reset your spending with the $25 Unlimited Forever plan. You can bring your own phone, pay $25 and get unlimited wireless forever. And that simple switch can unlock up to $600 in savings a year. That's money you could put to debt, investing or something that actually brings you joy. Those savings are based on average annual single line payment of AT&T Verizon and T Mobile customers, compared to 12 months on the Boost Mobile Unlimited plan as of January 2026. For full offer details, visit boostmobile.com hey,
- [01:21]
Adam Grant
this is Adam Grant, host of Ted's podcast Rethinking with Adam Grant. Have you heard of Bill? It's the intelligent finance platform that uses AI to help you avoid costly errors and and optimize cash flow. In fact, Bill reports that over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust them to manage, move and maximize money. Proven by over a trillion dollars in secure transactions. Eliminate the friction and start scaling with the proven choice. Visit bill.com proven to talk with an expert about automating your business finances and get a $250 gift card as the thank you. That's bill.com proven terms and conditions apply. See offer page for details. This is the athletic hockey show prospect series. Hey everybody, Max Boldman here alongside the Athletics Corner Corey Promman and Scott Wheeler and Flow Hockey's Chris Peters for another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show Prospect Series. We got a lot to get to today. Corey's got a new draft ranking out. We got some mailbag questions we want to get to. But first, guys, I want to spend this first segment just talking about the rookie class. And I think Corey, if we made this a Calder discussion, it would be a pretty short segment. It does feel like as good as Beckett Seneca has been lately, this is Matthew Schaefer's award to lose. So let's start there.
- [02:53]
Chris Peters
And.
- [02:54]
Adam Grant
And he's the player who. He's the first overall pick in the last draft and usually that guy comes into the year as at least a co favorite for the Calder. That wasn't the case for Schaefer. He's done this by really exceeding the timeline of his expectations more than we ever could have guessed.
- [03:08]
Corey Pronman
I remember in the preseason we were talking about, well, is he going to get the power play opportunity because they have Tony d' Angelo on this team. Is he going to be able to steal the ice time away from Tony d'? Angelo? And obviously that looks like a ridiculous take in hindsight given the level of offense, the level of impact that Schaefer has had. I agree with you think this is much of a debate in terms of who's going to win the Calder. I think it's sha shape. Even though I think goals and points wise he's close with Senica, like in terms of overall impact, especially as a defenseman. Like, I think he's like the runaway favorite at this point mostly could be egregious to vote for anybody else, to be perfectly honest.
- [03:45]
Chris Peters
Yeah, egregious. I mean, he also, you know, you look at the ice time, you look at the, the production, the age, the fact that he's doing this off of a season where he only played less than half of it, it's. It's still stunning to me to see how good he has been this quickly. And I mean, what a credit to the work that he put in to be this good. But I mean, 20 goals was not on my radar. I mean, he's got more points in the NHL than he ever did in the ohl. In his what? In his career. Right. So like, it's insane.
- [04:23]
Corey Pronman
Has it been like two years in a row now where we've had debates in like the spring of whether the predictor number one should go back and play another year and then they come to the NHL and they're just dominant, just right away.
- [04:32]
Chris Peters
Everybody
- [04:35]
Scott Wheeler
the. The goals piece of the puzzle. Like forget the how quickly he's done all this and the age and the games played last year, even in the prime of his career. I wasn't sure that a year ago this time I saw Matthew Schaefer as a defenseman who was going to score 20, 25 goals in an NHL season like that part of it is just. And maybe he won't. Maybe the next couple of years he'll have 15, 10 to 15 goals and, and that'll be the baseline. And maybe he won't do this every year, but the fact that he's done that is almost incomprehensible to me. And he's like, he's, he's changed that that entire like if you look at the east, them with Sorokin and the way that those guys are going, I know they're not a perfect team, but I wouldn't want to play them in a first round series. And I think a year ago if you had them as a first round matchup, forget them moving up in the lottery and getting Shaffer, even, even them as a first round matchup, nobody would have been scared of them. Right. Like nobody would have saw them as a threat. And now it suddenly feels like outside of Tampa they've got as good a chance as almost anybody in the east. Right?
- [05:39]
Corey Pronman
Carolina, Come on.
- [05:40]
Adam Grant
And Buffalo I think is, is better too. Now Buffalo looks really, really good. But, but that doesn't take away from shape.
- [05:46]
Scott Wheeler
Sorokin's the best goalie in those series is. And Matthew Schaefer might be the best player in, in either of those series with care whether it's Carolina or Buffalo. Rasmus Dahleen's playing at a pretty elite level right now, but like he's, he's just changed the outlook of, of that team instantaneously. Like it hasn't taken years for it to happen.
- [06:06]
Adam Grant
It is telling that the debate feels less of, you know, where is Schaefer going to finish in the Calder? I think we're all pretty sure he's finishing first and more can he sneak onto some Norris ballots?
- [06:15]
Chris Peters
Corey
- [06:19]
Corey Pronman
be a little rich for me at least, at least in terms of getting the one votes. But no, no, I'm talking about the
- [06:24]
Adam Grant
four or five spots.
- [06:25]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, I think that's reasonable. Yes, we'll see.
- [06:29]
Adam Grant
Still some hockey left to be played. The defensive underlying numbers still leave a little bit to desired as you would expect for an 18 year old defenseman. But when you see a rookie, he's the first rookie year old and I guess all 18 year olds are rookies to score 20 goals in the NHL. And that is pretty amazing in and of itself.
- [06:45]
Scott Wheeler
I don't think he would be on my ballot today. Like I, I think it, you, you look at Hughes, Makar, Warensky, Darlene, even what Evan Bouchard's done over the last 30 or 40 games here, I think I'd have a tough time getting him onto my ballot. But the fact that we're having the conversation.
- [07:01]
Corey Pronman
I think he's in the conversation, like I said. Does he for sure, top five? I don't know, but I think you would. I think him versus Bouchard would be a conversation for me.
- [07:09]
Adam Grant
I still might get Sanderson, Haskin, and
- [07:11]
Scott Wheeler
yeah, Siders in there. Yeah, yeah.
- [07:14]
Corey Pronman
Sanderson getting hurt might, which hurt his case a little bit. But. But, but, yeah, those are all the names.
- [07:19]
Adam Grant
But I think the point is, like, he's put himself at least at the fringes of the conversation, and that's pretty remarkable. Let's go to the next two guys. I think that would probably call 1B, 1C or maybe 2A, 2B, I guess more more accurately. And that's Beckett, Seneca and Ivan Demidov. And Scott, you and Harmon Dial did a earlier this week on the Calder race, and I think you each had it a different way. One of you had Dimitov as the two and Beckett, Seneca as the three, and the other had Seneca as the two and Dimitov as the three. So which. Which way did you go on that? I'm forgetting off the top of my head.
- [07:53]
Scott Wheeler
I leaned Demidov, but it's close. Demidov has had better defensive results. That was kind of the edge for me, is he's just been a more reliable player. And it feels to me like Demidov has really elevated that second line with Slafkovsky. Now, Slafkovsky, brilliant recently, but Demidov has elevated whatever line he's been on this year, and guys have played better around him. Seneca is more of a singular playmaker for himself in a lot of ways. The offensive production, though, does tilt a little bit in Beckett's favor. So I could see it being Beckett as the runner up this year.
- [08:28]
Adam Grant
Honestly, he is the leading rookie scorer right now. And Corey, that's one that kind of came out of nowhere. Like he has to be a guy. If we're talking about Schaefer exceeding expectations, Seneca might have outshot his expectations by even more to be in the number two, number three conversation.
- [08:45]
Corey Pronman
I agree with that. And I say that as someone who's been a big advocate of Seneca's game and his profile. You know, you look at his play in junior and there were stretches of inconsistency in his draft year, even his post draft year in the ohl. Some really, really good stretches, some really good playoff play with Oshawa, but, you know, he never really put together a full season of dominant play, kind of. And like, basically what he's done in the HL is here. He's not dominant but the way basically month after month he showed up and made a difference for these Anaheim Ducks and big been a significant part of their turnaround and turning them into a playoff team has been quite surprising for a teenager. You look at the profile, the tool's always been obvious. 64, can fly, high end skill, that power is always obvious. But whether he was going to be able to handle the physicality as a 19 year old was a minor question. I think he's, you know, passive, flying colors in that regard. Like you see he's able to drive the net, he's able to win battles, he's able to get to get to pucks easily. Like I mean he's been very impressive this season and looks like a guy who could obviously be a good player but potentially a true impact player given his very unique skill set.
- [09:53]
Scott Wheeler
I remember in the fall too, media and fans in Anaheim talking about how he'd had a bad camp too. Like he had two or three bad games in camp and they weren't even sure if they were going to put him on the opening night roster. And then they give him that sort of nine game sample as you'd expect them to out of the gate and he has not looked back.
- [10:12]
Adam Grant
Yeah, one more, we're going to open this up a little more broadly in a second, but one more player I want to give some, some direct specific time to Chris is Jesper Walsted and I don't know that he's going to end up having enough games played to be a like top three contender on Calder ballots. But by quality of play at the importance of position, he's a strong number four for me.
- [10:33]
Chris Peters
Yeah, he's definitely in the mix for me as well. And I think that you know, with, with Wallstead one of the, the more fascinating things is we were getting kind of concerned about if it was going to be going in the right direction for him based on his performances over the last couple of years in the ahl, it seemed to be heading in the wrong direction. Now granted he was playing on a team that was on the weaker side of, of the league and, and that can really, you know, do do bad things to your numbers. But as you look at, at what Wallstead has done this season, the numbers that he's put up, the, the, you know, the history that he's made in terms of, you know, the numbers of, of of shutouts and wins and all these other things that he's done. You know, I think that clearly Minnesota has, you know, their goalie of the future, the Goalie of the present kind of right now with the split, you know, splitting with Gustafson. But I do think that, you know, in terms of him being in the discussion, you know, overall impact, he's clearly a very important player for a team that's, you know, going to the playoffs is a legitimate contender. You know, it'll be interesting to see if and when Minnesota is going to need to lean on him in the playoffs at all. That won't have an impact on his ability to win the Calder, but it is, you know, just in terms of the next steps for him. That seems to be the thing that I'm. I'm most fascinated by. But, you know, thinking about we go back to that draft where it was Wallstead versus Cosa, you know, we've just had to be patient with both of them, it seems, because Cosa's having a tremendous year in the ahl still, you know, a step away from the NHL. Meanwhile, Wallstead is. Is proven as worth even more so at the NHL level than he did in the ahl.
- [12:11]
Adam Grant
Yeah. All right, let's go a little broader here then, Corey. And there's a whole group of prospects that we could talk about to round out the top four, five, six, seven names here. And there's some really good contenders, obviously. Alexander Nikishan in Carolina, the big defenseman, Ryan Leonard, a very hyped prospect, I think had a good year in Washington. Ben Kindle. Speaking of the guys who have kind of come out of nowhere, Oliver Kapanen in Montreal, Frazier Minton in Toronto. Ton of names here. Who has most or yeah, should have been Toronto now is Boston. Which of those names, Corey, has elevated their projection for you most with what they've shown as a rookie this year?
- [12:49]
Corey Pronman
I mean, it has to be Kendall. I would have done a spit take, you know, nine months ago if you told me he was going to be. I think he's like third or fourth and rookie goals, seventh and rookie points. I was just watching him last night when they were playing Carolina. Like, really impressive what he's done here as a teenager. And I think you could, you know, have really interesting debates about where he fits in that draft class. He went like 11 or 12th overalls when those guys in that top 10 haven't had great years. I think you can argue he's squarely in the mix to be one of the top seven, eight players from that draft class, maybe even a little higher, given how he's continued to play there for Pittsburgh. And he's playing important minutes and he could play up both Ends of the ice. I mean, he's clearly the guy that blow me away. Like, I didn't know if, I didn't know if Oliver Kaplan was going to score 20 goals this year. But I still think the projection is mostly the same. You know, high skill, high compete, heavy footed guy, probably a third line center. You know, long term, I think, you know, Minton, same thing. I think he's had a good year. I think he's really changed his projection significantly. I think it's Kindle that you're like, okay, whoa. Like Pittsburgh might really have something here.
- [13:57]
Scott Wheeler
Kapanen filling in as the 2C which Montreal needed desperately and doing an adequate job is, has been huge for them. But I, to Corey's point, long term, if they're a contender, he's. He's more of a 3C than a 2C. There.
- [14:12]
Corey Pronman
Is Hage a center? And if so, can he be the second line center?
- [14:17]
Scott Wheeler
I like him better at center. I think there, I know there's been a lot of talk about like that Jordan Cairo, winger of the future there. I, I think they, I think with his skating and the way that he's proven he can drive play this year, which was the big question with him, I think you at least have to try him at center. But I don't know whether he's the 2C of the future there either.
- [14:39]
Corey Pronman
I thought he at least looked the part. The world Juniors. I tend to agree with you. I've always thought his profile looked better on the wing, but given how he played with good players, the world juniors down the middle, I think if you're Montreal, you have to at least experiment with the idea. No,
- [14:55]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's probably why you drafted him. Drafted him there. I mean, like, yeah, it'll be, it'll be interesting to see. I think, you know, as we, as we look at it, you know, being able to be a center, obviously very important. I still don't think the defensive side of the game is anywhere close to 2C level for him. So, like, that's, that's the thing where it's like, you know, we'll see. I think he wants to be a center, so he's going to do what he's going to have to do. But I also think with, with Montreal, that's probably where, you know, if you're going to sign him at the end of this season, you know, you're going to have to probably get him into that center mix pretty quick because he'll, you know, he doesn't have to sign if he doesn't want, if he doesn't
- [15:33]
Corey Pronman
like what he's hearing, it may not work. I'm just saying if an ideal world of Kapanen is your three and if Hage can work down the middle and you got Suzuki haged Kapanen, that's a lot better looking group than if you have. If Hage can't make it work down the middle, yeah, 100 that.
- [15:49]
Scott Wheeler
That's an just a situation like if they're one or two points up on the playoffs or one or two points out of the playoffs when he signs. That is a very, very tricky situation to navigate. If you're the Montreal Canadiens like Ryan Leonard a year ago, Washington was, was not just in. Washington was one of the, one of the best teams in the league and they could afford it. You can't, you can't necessarily do that if there's a learning curve in Montreal.
- [16:16]
Corey Pronman
So didn't they bring Demidov in last spring and do the exact same thing?
- [16:20]
Adam Grant
Yes.
- [16:20]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, he barely. Yeah, he barely played though.
- [16:23]
Adam Grant
But it gives you the option, right? You can test drive it a little bit and see, see what you want to do. The other side of this conversation is there are some guys who I expected we might be talking about in that conversation who I don't think really. I mean, we could talk about Ryan Leonard too. I think he still had a good year. It's just not maybe a great year. But Artem Levshinov and Z Bouilliam are guys who I thought had outside chances to be in that top two, top three, depending on how their seasons went. Corey, I don't think they're even close to the mix here.
- [16:49]
Corey Pronman
No. And I think different reasons. I think with Boyam, you know, his defense was, was an issue, but definitely the pace of the game I think has been a lot faster for him than I thought it was going to be. I thought when I watched him in college, his skating and the pace at which he played always stood out. I have not seen that when I've watched him in the NHL this year. I still think he's good player. I think he's going to be a great long term NHL player. Still a very young player like Lev Chunov too. So I'm not down on either of them, but I think that's been more of an issue. And Lev Chunov definitely needs to find a way to I think calm his day, his game down a little bit and make a little bit better decisions at time with the puck and defensively. I think he can Be a little bit of a wild player at times. And frankly, with both of them, like, you could talk about their defense, but their game is offense. And neither of them have shown enough offense this year, you know, to be in that. That conversation. And, you know, with a guy like Nikishan, it's nice that he's chipping an offense. He's on the first power play now for a spell for Carolina. But you like that he's big and he can move and he's physical. That's not those guys. It's games. They need a score. Yeah. And yet they're really, really young players, like still top prospects guys I expect will be top four defenseman law for a long time. Run a power play for a long time. So not. Not down on these players in terms of not being really good NHL players. But they didn't, like you said, they didn't have great years, especially when Boyhum got traded. You're like, okay, he's gonna, yeah, Vancouver's not good, but he is gonna have a lot of opportunity here now. They can lean on him, give him all the minutes he wants on the power play and really hasn't done anything with it.
- [18:23]
Adam Grant
And, And Nikishan has outscored those guys. It's not just that he's like, not that type of player. He's just not. Not by a dramatic amount. But he's slightly ahead of both of them in scoring.
- [18:31]
Chris Peters
And how about this one? How about this one? Max McIshan has more shots on goal than Demov does. So, like, you know, like, that's. That, you know, that's.
- [18:39]
Corey Pronman
He's.
- [18:39]
Chris Peters
He's playing a more. And he's an older player. Like, you know, he's. He's got more pro experience and all those things. The one thing that I think is interesting about Levchinov is they pretty much handed them the NHL job this year. And I. They did that with Kevin Korchinski a couple years ago. Now, Levshinov played in the AHL last year. I think he needed to play more there. I don't think you look at some of the decisions that he's making. The reads that he's making different things. It's. It's not there. It's just not there. And I, I have concern about that because we've seen how this has worked out for Kevin Korchinski and that it hasn't. And then, you know, you've got a number two overall pick. So we're talking about two top 10 picks that you rush to the NHL amid a rebound or you know, this. This. You're starting to come out of this rebuild right where you're. This is supposed to be the rebound time, and I think that there's a lot of concern there. So, you know, if you look. If you look at those players, there's. There's going to be work that needs to be done, but you're not sending Artem Levshinov back to the AHL next year, so you're going to have to hope that he figures it out, because I. I mean, even just watching a game, the. I was trying to figure out exactly what he was doing. And. And this has always kind of been. This has kind of always been the thing with Artie. He's on his own program at times on the ice, and I love the player. I think there's a ton of potential. He's got this size, he's got this ability, but he is there. There is definitely some holes in his game that need to be plugged this offseason. Otherwise, we're going to be talking about the same things next year.
- [20:14]
Corey Pronman
Is he legit? Basically, like a 6:2, like, 6:3. Adam Bokevis, essentially, in how he plays. But that could be. That could be a really good thing of Adam. You know, that's a big difference in physic, in physical profile there. But that's both. Always kind of play with that wild attacking style, kind of. That's what I'm trying to get at.
- [20:31]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [20:32]
Scott Wheeler
He should have gone back for it. Forget rushing him to the NHL. He should have gone back for a second year of college.
- [20:37]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I think. I think it would have. I think that not.
- [20:42]
Scott Wheeler
Not a lot of guys going one and done. Even the top, top, top guys, as.
- [20:46]
Chris Peters
Yeah, I mean, I really. I really do think the guys like Makar and Hughes and Warrensky, for that matter, are, you know, the. That's the model.
- [20:56]
Scott Wheeler
Like, if Sanderson.
- [20:58]
Chris Peters
Where are they right now?
- [20:59]
Adam Grant
Years. Two years.
- [21:00]
Corey Pronman
It's always two years, two years ago, back then three.
- [21:05]
Scott Wheeler
I don't. I don't think McKenna going back is a bad idea at all.
- [21:09]
Chris Peters
I. I won't. I'm on the fence.
- [21:12]
Corey Pronman
Should he go back?
- [21:13]
Chris Peters
Should he go back? Probably. But, I mean, I'm on the. I'm on the fence with that one, but, like, really? Yeah, it's just. It'll be interesting because now we're going to see more young. You know, once this rule change goes through, we will probably see more young players in the AHL out of Junior as well. And you wonder, you know, would some of those guys actually be better served with the hybrid path by playing, you know, like a Porter Martone situation this year. I think Porter Martone is far better prepared and equipped to reach the NHL next season. And yeah, we'll see but that, that would also be one year situation. So who knows.
- [21:54]
Adam Grant
I want everyone to notice what Corey just did at the start of this show. He said two years in a row we've talked about the top guy and is he going to go back to school and that guy finished top two for the Calder. Corey just personally single handedly ensured that Gavin McKenna is finishing top two for the Calder Trophy next year and gave our streak three years. Let's take a quick break right there. We're going to talk about Gavin McKenna in the 2026 draft class.
- [22:17]
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- [23:58]
Farnoosh Tarabi
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- [24:49]
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- [25:31]
Adam Grant
All right, we are back. And Corey, you had a new draft ranking drop this week and for the fourth, I believe time fourth different time this year there's a new name atop your draft ranking. It's been Gavin McKenna, it's been Tynan Lawrence, it's been Keaton Verhoff and now at number one on your list is Chase Reed. This has to be as chaotic of a top of a draft as we've had in our time doing this show. Certainly.
- [25:53]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, that's fair. I think the power draft would have been the closest where I had I think Luke Hughes, Dylan Genther and I think I had Benier's one at one point before eventually settling on power. But this one would be close and I'm sure some readers are seeing this and wondering like if I've just like you're I've gotten a few messages from people in the league and saying you're doing this is clickbait or whatever. Like I'm sure some readers think the same thing but like this is the context for me is for me the gap between one which is the suit offender Chase read to eight on my list with is which is the Windsor winger Ethan Belches. For me the gap between those players in terms of talent is minuscule. Like I think it's nearly an eight way tie quite frankly. Now I don't think it's actually a tie but the gap between 1 and 8 for me like on my board is like the gap same as the gap between 9 and 16, which is very unusual. Like the 21 draft had some similarities in that regard, where you had like that group of nine players which was, you know, Power, Evanson, Clark, Genther, Eklund, McTavish, Veneers. I think I'm forgetting one name. But that, but that group was like kind of like a blend. Ken Johnson was like a blend of guys. And you could have been in any order. And then you had the 24 draft, which after Stella Brini you had like that 10 names there. You really could have put them in any order and they were all really close. That's kind of how I feel. This draft is like that top, like there's no number one for me that's exceptional. But like that top seven, top eight players, those are some really, really good prospects like Reed, Keaton, Verhoff, Albert, Smith, Carson, Carls, Daxson, Rudolph. Those are premium, premium defensemen. Stenberg and McKenna are exceptional wingers. These are all guys that when I do my U23 list in the summer, they're going to be extremely high and ahead of a lot of the guys who went really high in the last two drafts. They're not going to be ahead of the premium guys, the superstars, the Schaefers and, and Demidov and whatnot, the guys who are having impact in the NHL. But they're all exceptional prospects and it's why I really could see them go in any order. And of course you got the two really good centers there in Lawrence and Caleb Malhotra may not have a lead offense, but are really good two way players. I think it's a really, really strong top 10 overall. I just think the 12 isn't as exciting as it would be in past years. But that's led to the fluctuation. Like if Chris said, oh, I have Verhoff one, like, yeah, I can see that. Scott said, I have McKenna or Stenberg one. I'm like, yeah, yeah, I can see that. Hell, if you guys said I would take Smiths, I want to be like, it's a little of a unique take, but like, I don't think it's unreasonable. Like, I've talked to scouts who have Smiths and Carls in that one or two or three conversation. And I don't think it's crazy. That's just what this draft is this year.
- [28:49]
Adam Grant
The scouts who texted you about the clickbait, was it specifically about Reid or was it about the variants from guy to guy?
- [28:56]
Corey Pronman
More the guy to guy. Like, I think, I think everyone agree. I think the consensus in the league is it's between Reed and Verhoff right now for the top D spot.
- [29:04]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [29:04]
Adam Grant
And McKenna Scott has come on so strong. I mean, a month ago there's the situation with the arrest and I don't think any of us knew what was going to happen from there. But what has happened is Gavin McKenna has really popped off and he has really found his stride in college hockey.
- [29:21]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah. By the time that this airs, me and Sean will have. Gentili will have a story out on McKenna and sort of the, the follow up to all of this and the takeaway from me in reporting that story out a little bit and speaking to six or seven scouts about where they're at with McKenna. These are scouts that I'd already previously talked about McKenna with in the fall is that opinions have shifted on Gavin over the last little while. He's played his best hockey of the year. He's obviously the eight point day, the eight point night and the ten point weekend really buoyed that. But even outside of that, he's played six or seven of his best hockey games of the year over the last couple of months here. And that has helped. It has helped not just the people who already believed in Gavin in the offense, but I think more so the people who were frankly quite down in October, November, early December on Gavin in terms of where his game was at. And that was before the, the arrest and the charges. So it's. That that is, is definitely like there's some, some steam building there for him, but he's, he's got to play well now and, and that team has had some ups and downs and I think when Chris expressed some of his reservations about Gavin going back. I don't want to put words in crisp mouth, but I'm, I'm guessing that some of that has to do with just going back to the environment at Penn State and the way that they play and whether that's best for him. That team has some problems and he, him having a really strong sort of conference playoff run here and then potentially national tournament run after that could, could make, make all the difference in the world and really sort of build and sort of put a stamp on, on the way that this has gone.
- [31:05]
Corey Pronman
I'm not sensing as much reservation in the league about that anymore. Like, I think, I think like people might have the players a different order, but I feel like his play the last few months has silenced a lot of doubts and analogous about where he fits relative to re. Relative to Stenberg, relative to Verhoff, etc.
- [31:23]
Scott Wheeler
I Think people are still worried about just the detail and, and the off puck and here, I mean, the habits.
- [31:30]
Chris Peters
Here's, here's the. So his best stretch of the season and he's like, in that same stretch in the last 10 games, he's minus four. Like, you know, like he's putting up stupid level of points and they're still giving up a ton of goals. And you know, that's. That to me is, is there isn't. Yeah. The level of reservation has changed because everybody knows the dynamic skill can be a separating factor. That's what separates him from the rest of the group. And you know, Penn State is suddenly on the bubble for the national tournament. It is not a guarantee that they are getting in as, as that as an at large right now. And so that is another thing that, you know, now you're losing opportunity on top of that potentially. And Scott, I think you read me fairly well on, on that as well in terms of. I think whoever takes him will sign him regardless. So, you know, that's, that's the other, the other thing. Whether or not he should or whether or not he's ready is, Is kind of not a conversation. So, you know, I think it's really, it's really interesting. But yes, I mean, like, here's, here's the thing. Like, you know, to Corey's point, there isn't one player in that eight that excites me as number one. Not one. There are eight players that I like and probably more than that that I like quite a bit that will be impactful NHL players. I think we've been spoiled a little bit in certain years where we've had these tremendous talents at number one. And we have guys that could, you know, I think you're just as likely to get the best player from this draft after number one as you are at number one, which we can't say in a lot of years, even though it eventually tends to happen that way because the field is so large and probabilities being what they are, somebody's in there that could be a late bloomer or whatever. So I'm fascinated by the discussion. But again, like, I think if you're the team that's picking number one, you have a significant amount of work to do to get yourself to make the right decision here for your team. And there are going to be a lot of varying factors which I, you know, I'm, I'm frankly, I'm glad I'm not in that position, aside from the fact that I have to put somebody number one on my list eventually too.
- [33:43]
Scott Wheeler
I had a scout tell me the best place to pick in this draft is number two.
- [33:47]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [33:48]
Scott Wheeler
And I think that speaks to what you're. Yeah. To what you're getting at. But now in saying that I haven't, I haven't had the variance on my list that Corey has. Like I've had stenberg and mckenna1 2 on all five of my lists so far this, in this sort of draft cycle. So I just haven't been able to quite get there on the D. Like I think Smits and, and, and Reed and Verhoff all have enough quirks and flaws and areas of improvement in their own games that I just wouldn't to, to peters point wouldn't get excited about picking them. Number one. I, I think I would be a little bit more excited about getting one of the forwards just knowing that they are going to produce like, like those two kids are going to be productive top of the lineup, P1 NHL players. And I think those defensemen could all well become first pairing guys. But I'm not confident that any of them are going to be a true, true number one.
- [34:44]
Corey Pronman
I say this with the caveat that McKenna and Reed for me were 12 on my list and I think it's basically a dead tie for them in terms of how I evaluated the players. But with that being said, I can, I will. I know that when push comes to shove in these manager meetings late in the season and you have number one pick walking out of the draft at number one with a 511 wing, which is what Stenberg and McKenna are, that is going to be a really tough pill to swallow for a general manager who just lost whatever, 50, 60 games. And that's why I think one of those defensemen could eventually end up in the conversation. If they feel it's close, maybe they. Something you don't think is close. I think there are some people who agree with Scott that there's a separation there. Some, some don't. Some think it's Verhoffer, Reed or at or even above the level of McKenna Stenberg. So I think those, that's the conversation more going into draft season. I mean you're basically like going back to like, you know, you're hoping it's Patrick Kane but like that's the last of that kind of profile. Went one and really had a successful, you know, career and the other one probably is Jakopov quite honestly. So it's a, there's a level of risk in, in that profile like because Taylor hall is like 6:1. And Satkowski obviously was a big wing, but it's like it's walking out of there with a 511 wing with the number one pick. It's. That's gonna take some, some nuts from the, from the, from the management team to do that.
- [36:07]
Adam Grant
I think it is interesting, Corey, because we just talked about Artem Lev Shanov and his struggles transitioning into the NHL. I believe it was the same comp on Lev Shanov, Noah Dobson that you have on Chase Reed. I. I think Reed's probably a little better skater than both of those two guys, but that's a real factor too, here, I think.
- [36:24]
Corey Pronman
I mean, yeah, I mean, there's question. There's questions on all these kids. Like, that's, you know, I think there's questions on whether Reed will be a good enough defender. I think there's questions on whether Verhoe offense is going to be elite enough. I think there's questions on McKenna's physicality and his compete. I think there's questions on whether Stenberg is really a special small wing or he's just like a really. Like, he could. He's a. For a number one pick, he's very vanilla. Like, at least with Reed and Verhoff, they have like the physical tools. You know, what's the. What other outside of like, maybe the world juniors. What's like a time you've been watching in the SHL and he's like, done like what William Eklund does where, like, he pulls you out of your seat, you're like, holy hell, what a goal. He just scored like that. He hasn't had like, those moments this year where that's blown me away. Like, all these guys have flaws. Like, Valhotra is got to be one of the most vanilla guys to take in the top three, top four. But he could go that high. Like, he's like, that's. That's the draft this year. Really good players. But no, no doubter.
- [37:23]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [37:24]
Adam Grant
All right, let's talk about those centers there, because you mentioned one in Malhotra.
- [37:27]
Chris Peters
You want to say something, Scott?
- [37:29]
Scott Wheeler
No, I was just going to piggyback off of the. Like, I. We've talked about Artem Levshinov on the, on the show today. Recent top D, Artem Levshnov, Simon Nemech, Owen Power. There's a long. There's a long list for like, forget the 511 wingers that haven't panned out. There's a long list of unconvincing top of the draft defenseman in recent Memory as well. So I do think that if you're. If you're just uncomfortable with the winger just as a default position, you risk ending up with a. Like they should have. The Blackhawks almost took Demidov and they should have taken Demidov as we sit here today. Right. Like it's.
- [38:11]
Adam Grant
Or.
- [38:12]
Scott Wheeler
I don't know. I think there's danger of playing too much into the premium position of it all.
- [38:18]
Adam Grant
Yeah. All right, let's talk about the centers. Another premium position there. And I've. Corey kind of introduced it. Vanilla is a good word for it, I think, with Malhotra. I think it's a similar word for Tynan Lawrence. And Lawrence is an interesting one because when you had him number one on your list, Corey, he was at the ushl. And when you watch a game of his in the ushl, it's a different look than when you've watched a game of his so far at bu. Obviously the offense has been lower. I think everyone can look at the totals and see that. But he goes from. From at one point on your list being number one. Now he's at number nine. And let's just talk about Lawrence's season here and what hasn't shown up at BU and maybe what your reservations are and what you still really believe in about Lawrence.
- [38:57]
Corey Pronman
I mean, his decision to go to college. I didn't mind you at the time, but in hindsight, it's been just absolutely terrible. Like, I've talked to teams, teams with who were picking high in the draft, and he was squarely in their mix to be in the top three, top five conversation three months ago. And I just don't think that's a reality right now. And I think the biggest issue for him has been, I think one that the level has exposed his hockey sense a little bit, that he struggles to make decisions. He's really, really fast and has good hands, but he doesn't. He's so. He kind of like, he plays fast. He doesn't actually do anything with the puck when he gets. When he gets into the offensive zone. And then the other thing is, I think he struggled the physicality. He's losing a lot of battles, getting pushed to the outside a lot. He's struggling to get the high percentage chances. And that being said, I think he's still really young. He is a straight 17. I think he's a really young. I forget whether he's. June, July. Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I think he's going to come into next season and he's going to be really Good. Like I, I still think this is a great, great player. I think he's going to be an excellent college player probably for the next two college seasons, I would guess. And I think he's going to be a really good pro. But yes, that jump to college, you know, when you go up levels it always gives you new and more valuable information because our jobs is always about projecting these players. We're projecting them from, from, from lower levels to higher levels and obviously ultimately to the NHL. But every time you go you jump up a level you get better information because those are just better players and it's more reliable information. And this information has been. But just like with McKenna when he was struggling at the beginning of the season, you got to hold Lawrence and Verhoff to the same standard. Verhoff hasn't really been pointing a lot lately. Like you, it's bit of concern and I think it raises questions about how much offense this player ultimately has.
- [40:51]
Scott Wheeler
The irony in all this is that we might get to watch Caleb Malhotra and Tynan Lawrence after all this debate about the centers in this class. We might get to watch them on the same college hockey team next year.
- [41:02]
Corey Pronman
It'd be, I think it'd be great for them too because I think like this BU team this year has lacked that kind of presence that they needed. That really two way responsible presence. And Lawrence obviously came in halfway, but he's 17. I think those two can completely change the culture of that team next season.
- [41:19]
Chris Peters
Yeah. And you know, this is one of those rare instances where this didn't work for anyone. Not one. You know, the USHL loses the benefit of having one of the top players in the draft. The BU did not get any help when they desperately needed it. Lawrence's draft stock has plummeted. Like it's like it's basically this didn't work out for anyone. But I actually think this decision will end up paying off next year for all the reasons that Corey said. But again, you know, I always, I respected the decision to bet on yourself and say, hey, this is what like I, I feel like if I'm gonna, I have a chance to go number one, I can prove it here. But as Corey said, the information like Lawrence kind of did scouts a little bit of a favor, gave them more information to see and to look at. He still has a lot of the same talents and skills, but as Corey meant he is not processing the game fast enough, which is a lot harder to identify at the lower levels. You'll see plays here and there where you're like, oh, wow, that was really high level. That was next level, you know, and in some of those levels, some of those guys can't finish those plays. And in this, in this instance, it's. He's not at that level yet, so hopefully it pans out for him next year. But yeah, this is one of those where, you know, everybody thought, hey, this could be a real win, win for all of us. And it's actually not for anyone.
- [42:38]
Adam Grant
One more player I just want to ask you about here, Corey. You still have them pretty high on this list at number 12 with the new information that you have. Tynan Lawrence at BC versus, let's say, Viggo Bjork in the shl.
- [42:48]
Chris Peters
How do you.
- [42:49]
Adam Grant
I mean, I know college hockey and the shaming. Yeah. Oscar Hemming, another one in college hockey. Right. Like, those two guys have thrived better at similar levels or even potentially a higher level. If you talk about the shl, I know there's the size factor with Bjork, but you got. I think he's the only player on your list who's above average in every single tool here.
- [43:07]
Corey Pronman
Yeah, yeah, he's a great player. Had a phenomenal, you know, world junior great years in Sweden. He's five, nine. Like, I, I hate to say it's that simple, but it's that like, it's that simple. To me, like his, I have him compared to like Frank Nazar. I think he's like in that raw seed of Frank Nazar spectrum where I just think like, he's super, super talented, super competitive. He's great player. But I think you are worried a little bit about how that's going to translate into the NHL, into the highest levels of the NHL. When you're trying to win playoff games, can you lean on a 59 center? And unless their brain point, it's. There's not a lot of track record of that happening. But I think he's a great player and he deserve that conversation you mentioned having. The league loves Oscar Hemming. Like, I have him. I think at 18 or 19 on my list. That's way below where the league has him. He's going higher. I can't wrap my head around it. At least at Lawrence he has the two or three points. You're like, okay, is this, this is bad. But how he did the shield this year, but how he did the USHL year before, but how he did the link of Gretzky with Hemming, it's like, well, he played 10 games in junior in Finland last year where he was kind of good and then it's like he had a nice flink of the summer. But I don't see that he still only has one goal this year at college. And he's, you know, I still, I love the skating, the physicality, the skill he has. He's a great player. I just don't know if I see the high side offensively with him. Before we go though, I think one of the changes we to my list that we didn't mention is for me, the Prince Albert defenseman Dax and Rudolph has elevated himself. Yeah, he what? In my, from my personal opinion and talking with the league, when you mentioned Carl's Smiths. Rudolph. No, sorry. Carl Smith, Verhoff, Reed. Rudolph is in the conversation with those guys right now. Like I, I don't have him there and if I was doing a mock draft I wouldn't put him there. But if he went top five, I wouldn't fall out of my chair. Like I think he's having that good a year. He is a really impressive puck mover. 6263 right shot like he's having just like a dominant season right now on Prince Albert. He's emerged in the conversation with those other top names.
- [45:15]
Adam Grant
All right, let's take a quick break right there. We got a packed mailbag we're going to get to. We'll be right back. Over 90 of the top 100 US accounting firms trust Bill to simplify and secure bill pay. That's proven financial infrastructure built on over a trillion dollars of secure payments. Visit bill.com proven for a special offer,
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- [46:41]
Corey Pronman
Oh, could this vintage store be any Cuter, right?
- [46:44]
Farnoosh Tarabi
And the best part, they accept Discover.
- [46:46]
Corey Pronman
Accept Discover in a little place like this?
- [46:49]
Scott Wheeler
I don't think so, Jennifer.
- [46:51]
Corey Pronman
Oh yeah, huh? Discover is accepted where I like to shop.
- [46:54]
Scott Wheeler
Come on, baby, get with the times.
- [46:57]
Corey Pronman
Right. So we shouldn't get the parachute pants.
- [47:00]
Farnoosh Tarabi
These are making a comeback, I think.
- [47:04]
Corey Pronman
Discover is accepted at 99% of places
- [47:06]
Adam Grant
that take credit cards nationwide.
- [47:08]
Corey Pronman
Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
- [47:14]
Adam Grant
It's been a while since we did a mailbag, guys, and we got a nice collection of questions here. So Corey, we're going to start with this one from bc. He wants to know how good you think Albert Smits could be, who his comp is. And he says he always likes seeing players come out of different kinds of countries. Smith's obviously the Latvian.
- [47:31]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. And obviously he's had a very impressive year. He just transferred from Finland. He's playing with, with Munich now in the Del in Germany. You know, the profile I think is very safe. I hate to use that word, but it's just one that comes to mind with just his size, his mobility showing, offense, the pro level, already being an important player for Latvia at the Olympics. He plays hard. He's a solid all around player. I think if you're worried about him, the only thing you're worried about is just how he lead us. His, you know, his, his puck moving, his processing, you know. The comp I put in my article lately was Jacob Chickren, a recent prospect. I thought of. We haven't seen how he's panned out, but I've thought of Sam Dickinson and his profile a little bit. When we've been looking at Smith and thinking like, is there some analogy there? Thought of Keandre Miller, thought of Noah Hannifin. Those are the kind of, that's the kind of player type I think he is. Like, I don't know if you're ever going to get like 50, 60 points out of this player, but I think he's going to be a really, really good minute seating top four defenseman in the NHL.
- [48:42]
Adam Grant
Okay, next one is for Chris. What happened with Boston University this year and do their struggles affect your assessment of any of their various prospects? This ties in nicely with the Titans Lawrence conversation earlier. Chris.
- [48:53]
Chris Peters
Yeah, man, it's been a weird year at bu. The weirdest stat from this is that they have the 52nd ranked power play in college hockey this year. That to me is, is, is one of the primary culprits. Their special teams have not been good enough. 14.2% on a team that Has Cole Hudson, Cole Iserman, Sasha Bovair. You know, eventually Ty and Lawrence like all these different players. So they've, they've had these pretty, you know, all these different weapons. That has been a disaster for them. They also did not get the goaltending this year. Mikel Yagorov is an outstanding prospect. I think he's got a great future. He hasn't been good enough this year. He's got a.903 save percentage. You know, he was lights out over the second half of last season. Hasn't had great defense in front of him. I mean, they lost a lot from last year's team, too. So, like, this is going to happen. These teams are going to get these players. Some are going to be one and done. Some of the, you know, you're going to have to, you know, change things out. They lost a lot of scoring from last season's team as well, and they had to replace it. But you look at some of the guys, I would say that my, my opinion on some players has been impacted. You know, Cole Iserman has 16 goals this year. Not bad, 25 points. He has, you know, five power play goals. You know, that's a guy that you would see, you know. And Sasha Boyvier has had a disastrous season after transferring. He was a primary guy. He's going to, I heard, sign.
- [50:17]
Scott Wheeler
I heard he's been playing with a bad shoulder, so I think that's been. Yeah, part of it. But, yeah, that's three goals. Is three goals or whatever he has is still three goals.
- [50:26]
Chris Peters
He's a. Yeah. I mean, this is a guy that. That was a legitimate goal scorer in the ushl. He was one of the best freshmen in the country last year at North Dakota and almost scored 20. Yeah, I mean, he's. It's. It just has not worked out, you know. And then you look at kind of some of the guys that they've had to lean on. Sasha Boomadine, you know, he's not a guy.
- [50:46]
Scott Wheeler
No step there.
- [50:47]
Chris Peters
Yeah, there hasn't been a step. You know, they don't have a really talented decor outside of Cole Hudson at that point, you know, and. And Cole's numbers have been down too, you know, so, like, everybody's kind of down right now. So. Has my opinion changed? Not significantly, because I think that there is a bit of an environmental thing going on where they're just not a very good hockey club right now. I do think they'll be better next year, but it's going to be very interesting to see some of the decisions that are made like, you know, guys like Yzerman should be going back next year. You know, Bob Air is going to turn pro. Not sure that's the best path forward for him. You know, there's a lot of different things that they're going to have to be figured out by BU as they go and work through this.
- [51:30]
Corey Pronman
I think what we watched Cole Iserman and Cole Hudson play at the NTDP in their junior days, we saw that power play just be incredible with, with, with those two in James Hagens. But there's always a part of me that was watching those games and thinking, does everybody just not see this play coming? That Higgins is going to try and find the seam to Eiserman or that Hudson's going to, like, step up from the blue line and look for the seam to Eisenman as, like, we all saw it coming from a mile away. I'm like, this is. And I'm like, eventually they go to higher levels, the college game and at the world juniors, too. Like, I've probably seen that eyes that Hudson to Eisenman play. And I've watched them both play at least 15 to 20 times this year between the World Juniors and a BU. I've maybe seen that play work like three times where, like, they get that pass off because I feel like everybody has just. They've lacked a lot of creativity on that team. Like, there isn't like, a lot of guys who are making plays. And yeah, it's. It's been a very disappointing power play for them.
- [52:31]
Adam Grant
All right, next question. Scott is from Bob G. He wants to know your thoughts on Tommy Bl. And I'll just add a caveat that it has to be a thought other than he should be a high school football coach in Texas.
- [52:43]
Scott Wheeler
Well, that is his. That is his old man that he is Interesting. I think one of the. It's not a major story, but one of the sort of lowercase stories, if you will, of this draft class is that a year after no sub 6 defensemen were drafted at all, we've really. We started the year with three, and Tommy has kind of made it four. There are four in Ryan Lynn, Xavier Vilna of Axel Olufsen and Tommy Bly, who are very, very, very interesting. And Tommy in particular has just sort of taken over in Moncton this year like he has been. He might. Xavier Vilnius was the defenseman of the year in that league last year, and Tommy might be it this year. And he's been dynamic at times. Offensively, he's an excellent, excellent, excellent Skater like I've had people compare him to like Seamus Casey and, and Brian had someone compare him to Brian Rafalski. Like he's just that sort of smooth on top of the ice, effortless feet skater. And then the other piece of it, which I just heard actually about 48 hours ago, is that central scouting sort of re weighed and remeasured him this week and he was moved from 5 foot 10.75 to 511 and a half. So that, that matters. Like there is a diff. Whether we like it or not, there's a difference between 510 and 511. But he's just, he's. I wouldn't say he's dynamic. I wouldn't say he's super competitive. Competitive like he doesn't have, he doesn't break ankles like Villeneuve does or even Olufsen does Frankly at the J20 level in Sweden at times. But he's just a really smooth, smart, talented skater. And I think that that skating piece can carry guys a long way. So I think he's right in the mix to be a second or third round pick in this class. Like that's, that's the range that I think he's going to go in. And to have four guys that are kind of in that conversation now, one of them might sneak into the fourth or fifth round, whether it's Olson or Pl. But I think there's a chance that all those guys go sort of top 100 in this draft. So there it speaks to, to just the respect that those four players have garnered.
- [54:58]
Chris Peters
Yeah, he's, he is very, he's very fascinating to me as well. And this weekend he actually became his set the most record for most assists by a rookie defenseman in the queue, you know, and so that's kind of crazy as well. And you know, I think the record had stood for, you know, like 40 plus years, but, but still, like you look at the numbers, you look at all those different things. This is a guy that was coming out of Cushing Academy last year that really nobody had on the radar is really being a draft for them. And then he comes in and is suddenly this guy. So to Scott's point, like these, these incredible numbers are not likely, I don't think are likely to push him into the first, you know, the first round. I, you know, I think second, third round still very much the more probable thing. My question is for next, you know, the next year or the year after, like where, where is Michigan State going to fit all of these, these offensive defensemen? That they've got coming here because Bly is committed to Michigan State, Chase Reed is committed to Michigan State. There's a ton of other guys up at forward that are going to be there as well. So, you know, Adam Nightingale has a good problem to have over there, I suppose. But yeah, really impressed by Tommy Bly. And the skating component is a, is a real, a real separator for me as well in terms of how I view him as a prospect.
- [56:17]
Scott Wheeler
That's the one thing that Michigan State team is missing this year too is that blue line does not move the puck particularly well, doesn't have a natural puck mover. And now they've got two and maybe more coming. Right? That's it Changes the look of that back end starting next year pretty quickly.
- [56:34]
Chris Peters
Yeah. All right.
- [56:35]
Adam Grant
Corey, crash dummy wants to know what's changed in your assessment. I'm paraphrasing here. Of Artem Levshinov over the last two years.
- [56:44]
Corey Pronman
He didn't have great ears. Like I, I think he's. I saw the question that there was, it was a little bit more colorful than that in that like I had rated number two going into the draft and I loved him and I thought like this guy's got a chance to be a real impact star defenseman in the NHL and he still could be quite frankly. He's very, very toolsy. Like the length, the skating, the skill, he puck moving ability. He has, you know, he's got. Still got potential to be a 50, 60, 70 point defenseman who plays major minutes with size. Like that's a really unique profile. And you know he was great in the ushl, the draft minus one. He was outstanding in college hockey. In his draft year where he went second overall, he looked every bit like a second overall pick. Then he goes pro American League, real bumpy first year pro. You could argue about whether he turned pro too quick or not like we did earlier in the show, but you know that that's his start was really bumpy. Then this year starts to look a little bit better. Like, you know, Sam Renzo is not working on the power play. They put him up there. He's starting to go like it's working and then it's a long season. The NHL, 82 games and you know, he's kind of had his ups and downs a little bit and you know, we could say the same about Lawrence. You had Lawrence one what, what the hell you gave up on him. It's like, well that's not how that works. Like I, I don't have personal Vest investments in these guys. I don't care whether they are. They're good or bad. I have to call it like I see it. You get a new information, you change your opinion. NF Chase reached close to number one overall six months ago. But, but you get new information and you, you adjust and left shoot off hasn't been good enough. He's still really, really good. I think this is going to be a really good top four defenseman in the league. But I mean, you compare him to Demidov, you compare him to Senica. I doubt any Chicago fans, you know, you know, would argue with the fact that Seneca and, and Demidov are ahead of him right now. It's just the reality.
- [58:35]
Chris Peters
There might have been a few fans back then that. Well, not for Seneca, but definitely for Demidov that were thinking it then too.
- [58:42]
Corey Pronman
Seneca might be the best of all of them, though. When it's all I know, that's like, that's the.
- [58:46]
Chris Peters
Yeah, he could be good. Lesson everybody.
- [58:48]
Corey Pronman
I always find it funny. I, I find it funny that Chicago gets dumped on the most for passing on Davidov when at least they got a good player like Kaden Lindstrom. That pick has been such a disaster. Like, I'm surprised Columbus doesn't get more crap about that one than Chicago apparently does. Getting a God in the NHL.
- [59:09]
Scott Wheeler
Columbus, who had like six Russians on their roster at the time too.
- [59:14]
Chris Peters
Yeah, what could have been. Hey, they got that Russian go. That undersized Russian goalie. The, the next time around. So it's all good.
- [59:22]
Corey Pronman
Who's been like 30th in the NHL and saved two under goalies.
- [59:26]
Chris Peters
That's right.
- [59:27]
Scott Wheeler
I haven't.
- [59:28]
Chris Peters
Sorry, Columbus, sorry, this is not a good segment for you. Columbus suddenly out of nowhere, catching strays.
- [59:35]
Adam Grant
Corey, the thing that I'm clinging to with Dobson or with, with Levshanov, I should say, is, you know, like we talked about, I think there was some comps to Noah Dobson in his draft year. And if you look at how Dobson started his career, the Islanders really sheltered him. Like they didn't send to the AHL at all. They just didn't play him that much in the NHL. And Levchenov, they've taken a different tact and maybe that's like the big game changer here. But once Dobson was kind of, you know, he got brought along and he hit his stride. He was a pretty. At 22, he's like a 50 point player next year, 49 point player. Unfortunately, Levshinov's draft year is the year that Dobson popped off and was a 70 point player. And Dobson has since kind of come back right into that 40, 50 point range. I still feel like Artie Levshinov can live in the 40, 50 point range and maybe, yeah, he'll have some defensive warts, but that is still a really valuable player at that size. I. I still think in a year or two, that's very much in play for Levchinov.
- [60:26]
Corey Pronman
Absolutely. And I'm trying to hedge this as much as I can. I think he's a great prospect, a great young talent. Yeah, I. You're talking about a guy who's less than two years removed from being drafted. You think of all the great young defenseman in the league and where they were at that point. A lot of them weren't even in the NHL. A lot of them played two years in college or they're playing pro hockey or. Or they're in the American League or they're just starting in the NHL. I think just because we have a year and a half worth of data of him, it's easy to get, you know, to knock him down a little bit. But I still think he's a great prospect. I think there's the bar is whether he should have got two or not, whether he should have gone four or five or six or seven. I still think that's a great, great player. And I. And there's still a path for him to be better than one of those forwards. I think it's a harder path now than it was two years ago, but it's still very much in the mix.
- [61:18]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah.
- [61:19]
Adam Grant
All right, next one. Chris is from Sam Ccon.
- [61:23]
Scott Wheeler
He says.
- [61:23]
Adam Grant
I've noticed a lot of Europeans jumping into the college ranks. Do these colleges have active recruiting across the pond? It is an interesting. You know, we're talking so much about how the colleges have had to prep for the arrival of the CHL kids, but it's pretty relevant in the Europeans do. We've seen more and more Europeans coming in as well.
- [61:40]
Chris Peters
Yeah. And I mean, it's. Honestly, it's. It's been active for. For many years. You know, I still think that there's. There's a number of hurdles that have to be overcome to get the European players in when it comes to you getting eligibility, academics, all these different things. But now, as we've seen, you can find lots of different ways. I mean, like Artie Levshinov was. Was a great example of a player that no one was really. No one really thought that he was going to be like if they would find a way to get him to be eligible, just because we didn't really have a great basis of, like, what the whole education situation was when he was in Belarus. And there was a lot of different things, but a number of universities have robust, you know, admissions programs geared towards international students. UConn is a good example of that. They've had a number of European players over the years, and we'll continue to have that. UMass has been very aggressive. Ton of European players. Yeah, yeah, tons. Yeah. And there's a lot of fins have
- [62:35]
Scott Wheeler
come over as well, specifically.
- [62:37]
Chris Peters
Yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of different programs that have, you know, made that a big part of their recruiting process. The other thing that's happened, too, is a lot more Europeans are coming over to the ushl, and now we'll also be coming over to the. The CHL with that opportunity to potentially play college hockey. You know, like, guys like Vaclav Nestrosil, would he have gone, you know, he went to the USHL and then went to UMass. Adam Banach, USHL OHL. Now he just committed to Western Michigan. So, like, there's a lot of different things that are. That are happening, but I'll tell you that this has really been going on for a long time. And what'll be, you know, what's kind of been interesting is there haven't been a ton of cases where the European players have been the best players in the. In college hockey. So maybe that's, for some of them, might be viewed as a little bit of a barrier for going forward in that. But I think we're seeing now more and more those players are seeing that opportunity. They're seeing the chances, and I think their parents are also seeing the chances. Like Mikhail Yegorov, his whole goal from when he was 14 years old was to go to school, and then it turned out, oh, I'm actually 6 foot 6, and I might actually have a chance at an NHL career as well, you know, so, like, those are the kinds of things that happen, too. I just think you're seeing more awareness in Europe. You're seeing. The World Juniors has actually been one of the great selling points of college hockey to those programs. I remember the. The case of. Of years ago, UConn was able to get a Russian player because he's like, I want to play in the same league that Clayton Keller did. You know, like, that's. That's the kind of thing that. That. That happens now. They're seeing where those players are going, and they're. They're much more in tune with that path.
- [64:19]
Adam Grant
I just remember when, when Tom Vlander was drafted, Corey, it was like such a thing that like he was going to snub the SHL and go to college hockey. It does seem like even in that small window, I think that was like the 23 draft. Like it's gotten so much more common.
- [64:31]
Corey Pronman
And I think I was reading an article one of our college football people did the other day that the situation had all missed. And like their conclusion was talking to some of the sources. There's like, there's no more rules anymore in college football. I think the same thing is going on in college hockey right now. There are no rules, There are no exceptions. These, these colleges are talking to signed KHL players, are talking to signed SHL and LIGA players. They're talking to guys in the echo in the American League. If they want to come play college hockey, they will find a way to get them through the clearinghouse and get them onto. Onto college. I had people who were stunned that Oscar Heming somehow found his way into Boston College this year. This is a guy who, when he was at the Holy Cow, was not close to finishing high school, but somehow he finished high school in time to go to bc. I'm sure it was legitimate, but it's. But like, where there's a will, there's a way. And like these colleges absolutely are looking in Europe. They are talking to the, a lot of these top European names. Engaging interest. And I think you're going to see a number of them come over this summer.
- [65:36]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah, they were, they were all over them at the, like at U18 Worlds last year. Eric, Eric Nilsson and all those guys, guys like. Yeah, Pedersen thought about, like tons of those guys have thought about it over the last few years and three should note, three import slots now in, in the CHL instead of two. Right.
- [65:52]
Chris Peters
So exactly. That's a big factor. The, the only barrier to entry at this point, as we've, as we've discovered, the only barrier is having signed an NHL contract. So that is really, at this point, the only barrier. Will that be a barrier forever? I think it will be because that's AAA is like committed to that. But that's, that seems to be the only way that you can't get it because I know, you know, BC tried to do that with Carter George and wasn't able to even.
- [66:21]
Scott Wheeler
Even told like Tolvanen played games in the KHL and like. Yeah, it's.
- [66:27]
Chris Peters
Yeah, it's nuts. It's a new. It's. It's. Yeah, we're in a different era.
- [66:32]
Adam Grant
Scott S. Vines wants to know the projection on Bryce Pickford.
- [66:38]
Scott Wheeler
Oh, I think he's legit. I think we have to treat him based off of what he's accomplished as legit. I was speaking with Willie Desjardins from Medicine Hat about him earlier this week and they, I mean, those, those programs are always high on their guys, but they think he's legit. And Willie has coached some very good defensemen in the WHL over the years. What he's done is historic. So that's the, like, that's the baseline respect that I think he's owed. 43 goals. 43 goals and he's missed games. He could have, he could have scored 50 goals this year if he didn't miss games. He had goals. And I believe it was eight straight playoff games last year in the heart of the playoffs against the best teams in junior hockey in the whl. And he doesn't. Like, he's not cheating for it. Like, he's not this rover fourth forward. He just attacks when he gets looks off the point. Like he likes to attack past that first layer and then he's got a huge shot. But he's not like he's not this like out of control all over the ice, not playing defense type of defender. Like he's a physical super. He's kind of mean kid. Like, he's got a competitive streak, he's physical, he plays hard, he's six feet tall. So that's a part of the conversation that's going to follow him again, whether we like it or not. Those 5116ft guys, which is where he's at, or they have to continue to prove it at every level. But I see no reason why Montreal shouldn't treat him as one of their better D prospects at this stage and, and sort of give him every opportunity in the AHL to succeed and to run the power play in the ahl, and then you go from there. The, the goal totals, the shot. It's. It's pretty hard to deny at this point.
- [68:24]
Corey Pronman
Go back to the world juniors where he wasn't even invited to the winter camp. Would he make your starting sixth even for Team Canada? So let me just read the names to you. Reed, Reed, Parrick, Carrolls, Bronicke, Aitchison, Danford. That those were, those were the starting six in the, in their, in the minimal route for them.
- [68:50]
Scott Wheeler
I think he, he's got a reasonable case against Danford and Reed based off of what we saw as particularly from Reed at the tournament.
- [68:59]
Corey Pronman
He's Gotta probably read Danford defend better though, right? Like you're. You're bringing Pickford for his offense.
- [69:04]
Scott Wheeler
We'd had a tough time defending.
- [69:06]
Corey Pronman
No, no, I don't. Just the skating. The skating is just so good with Reed. I get what you're saying. I don't think it's unreasonable. Like, I guess that's my question with Pickford is like, is he more than a shot? I think his shot is exceptional. I don't know if the skating or like the hardness is going to be good enough for him to be like a really good NHL defender. So the question is how much of that offense can you bring with him to the next level? I think he's got a really good chance for it to happen. I just don't know if it's a. If it's a sure thing or not. That's why I'm asking at the higher level, the level beyond the whl, what would his impact have been? I don't know the answer to that question. He didn't play there. But that's. That's. Well, that's what I'm thinking about when it comes to Pickford.
- [69:41]
Scott Wheeler
It also feels like every offensive defenseman is going to have a bit of a tough time in one market in particular in the NHL for the next decade and he might be in the wrong market.
- [69:51]
Corey Pronman
Also something weird. The WHL this is going to come up. The context of Carl's. Of Rudolph Pickford is. Lynn is how many defense bet are just having monster years in the Western League. Right?
- [70:04]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah. The West.
- [70:05]
Chris Peters
I mean you could. West is the worst.
- [70:07]
Scott Wheeler
It's the worst it's been since I've been doing this job. The WHL this year.
- [70:12]
Chris Peters
I mean like that. That is. I've had this discussion with scouts as well about how, you know, like different things. Like you're going to look at all the NHLE models and everything else. If you're looking at all of those, just get ready for those to change because they are. They are off the. It's. It's not. It's really. It's. There's no historical comp, I think, for. For what's happening right now.
- [70:33]
Corey Pronman
Yeah. If anyone wants to bet with me that the Rook twins are going in. Both going in the first round. I'll take that bet all day kind of thing. Like it's just. That's just not happening.
- [70:40]
Scott Wheeler
No. Yeah, he did do it to his credit. He did it against Berkeley, Catton and all those guys last year as well.
- [70:48]
Chris Peters
Yep. For sure.
- [70:49]
Corey Pronman
He's a good prospect. I. I like if he was on my list last year. Like, I like the pick, I like the player. It's just a matter of, like, will it translate to being like, he can't be. He's not a penalty killer. He has to be an offense guy in the NHL with that, with. With his player type. And to your point, there's an issue there. Dobson's also a really good offensive guy, too, but that's. You can trade guys. That's not really a problem. It's just a matter of how it's going to translate to the American League next year. Is he going to be like a Joshua where, like, it looks really nice in Junior, but he doesn't translate super, super well. Or does it? Yeah, he's a better skater than wa. So maybe it does translate better.
- [71:23]
Chris Peters
That could be.
- [71:24]
Adam Grant
All right, let's close with this one. And how about this?
- [71:26]
Scott Wheeler
Rather than me throwing this to one
- [71:28]
Adam Grant
of you guys, I just want you all to answer it all at once here. JBS in space wants to know. I'm going to count to three after I ask this. Is there hope that the Flyers can fix David Yuricheck? Three, two, one.
- [71:40]
Chris Peters
No, no.
- [71:42]
Corey Pronman
Possibly. I think he's like, like, fix in what way? Like, I fixing. He's going to be like a. Three, four. Like. No, but fixing that, I think he can get to 500 NHL games and play competent, like, you know, 18, 19 minutes a night, kill some penalties, give you 10, 15 points a year. Like, I think he can do that, I think. But I know it's not the sexiest bar in the world, but I don't know, even know, like, you know, I think that's still a useful player.
- [72:11]
Adam Grant
Well, for what that trade was, that would be. That would make it worth it to have given up Bobby.
- [72:14]
Scott Wheeler
Yeah.
- [72:15]
Chris Peters
Yeah.
- [72:15]
Scott Wheeler
I think number. Number five, PP2, like, sheltered. Number five. PP2, five, six. I think that's what you're hoping for.
- [72:24]
Chris Peters
Yeah, it's so I. I think, yeah, I think that that's. That's at least feasible. Still, in terms of his age, he's only 22. I. You know, I.
- [72:32]
Scott Wheeler
You can hammer. You can still hammer it.
- [72:33]
Chris Peters
Like, you could still hammer the pot
- [72:35]
Corey Pronman
going on right now.
- [72:37]
Chris Peters
No, no, no.
- [72:38]
Scott Wheeler
It's the skating. He's. He's always going to have a tough time.
- [72:41]
Chris Peters
Fix. Fix him, fix him. You know, I mean, we're talking about a guy that was a, you know, a very high NHL draft pick. Yeah. So if you're recalibrating expectations, as we probably should have done in. In years 1, 2, 3, whatever, you know, like. Yeah, but like in terms of being a serviceable NHL defenseman, I'm still concerned about that based on what I've seen in the age.
- [73:07]
Corey Pronman
Just Scott's point from earlier. What a strange draft ends up being. You have those four defensemen going to the top 10. Your check. Nemech, Korchinski, Minchikov. Korchinski is barely holding on to NHL job. Nemet apparently is trying to get out of New Jersey Euro checks on his third team. Menshikov basically had to get a. They had to trade for a power play quarterback at the deadline because they. Yeah, you got like there's this. Whatever. The 25th defenseman in that draft, wherever he was picked, is now probably like the clear best guy. And it's what a. What a strange class ends up being. And I still like Nimitz a lot. Like, I think. I think he's a good player. I think that's just a weird situation where they have Dougie and they have Luke Hughes and we saw that situation coming from a mile away that there was going to be a complicated marriage here between that player and that organization. It's just been interesting to see a very recent draft and, and how it's aged at that position particularly.
- [73:58]
Chris Peters
No, no question.
- [73:59]
Scott Wheeler
I think it just speaks to how hard the league is. Like Dickinson per. Like go. Go down the list. Dickinson pere. They're all having. Everybody's. All of the young defensemen virtually in the league are having a tough go. Like I started by U23 at the bar with. With Dom at our little, our little party here in Toronto for, for the athletic staff earlier this week. Outside of Brandt Clark and Simon Edmondson, Brent Clark's actually having a really, really good year finally after it was a tough go for him. But outside of Brandt Clark and Simon Edmondson, like, and maybe Denton Matechuk, like, there's not. Everybody is having a, A difficult go if you're a young defenseman in the NHL.
- [74:39]
Corey Pronman
And Hudson.
- [74:41]
Scott Wheeler
And Hudson.
- [74:42]
Chris Peters
Yeah, he's.
- [74:43]
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- [74:44]
Chris Peters
He's pretty good. But yeah, like that. That. It. Yeah. This, that draft and your check was my number one D that year. I know, I know. Scott, you were high on Nemech and like that. It. Honestly, I did not see it coming. Like David Yuricheck. How about this one? David Yuricheck was at the world Juniors that, that, you know, couple. The one where Bedard went bananas. He was the best defenseman there. He was the best. He might have been one of the best players outside of Bedard. There. His D partner was David Spa. Check David Spachek was on the Czech Olympic team. David Yurichek wasn't even a consideration. And and not to say that David Spockcheck is like a super prospect because he's still bouncing between the NHL and the ahl, but this is how far he fell. And that's the thing where it's like in terms of fixing him, there is a long road ahead to get to that point.
- [75:34]
Corey Pronman
I think there's some part of that the player has found to be more difficult to work with, I think too, than some expect. Correct. Like it. Yeah, there's that. That's a little bit of that too.
- [75:44]
Chris Peters
Yeah. Yeah. Be paid. Like a lot of these guys just lack that patience. And he didn't think he should be in the ahl and he had a great AHL season in Cleveland and he was really good there. But that doesn't mean you're ready to take that next step. And I think a lot of players need to learn that quickly and take a little bit more control of their own development so that that doesn't happen to them.
- [76:02]
Adam Grant
All right. That is going to do it for us. Great stuff today, guys. You can catch more of Chris, of course, over at Flow Hockey and on his podcast called up. Obviously you can read all of Scott and Corey's stuff on TheAthletic.com I'll be back on Monday with Laz and Jesse. We'll talk to you you soon.
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