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- [00:00]
Chris Murphy
This podcast is brought to you by T. Rowe Price. Join me as I chat with Chris Murphy, their head of ETF Specialists, to unpack what ETFs are, how they work, and how T. Rowe Price is helping investors make more informed decisions. So as a pure investment tool, as an ETF versus let's just say a mutual fund, what are the advantages and disadvantages between those two?
- [00:22]
The ETF structure itself allows for the costs to really be materially lower and so on average, an ETF is going to be a lot less expensive. Expensive from an expense ratio perspective.
- [00:33]
Let's talk about the philosophy that differentiates T. Rowe Price from other organizations that are in the ETF space. What's that secret sauce that you guys have?
- [00:41]
It comes back to kind of the core principles of our firm, which is curiosity around what can we do to find an edge or where can we innovate?
- [00:49]
Listen in to discover how T. Rowe Price's active ETFs can help you add an edge to outperform the index. Learn more at tprrice.com/explore ETFs tired of.
- [01:01]
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- [02:51]
Chris Murphy
This is the athletic hockey show.
- [03:00]
Shayna Goldman
Foreign.
- [03:06]
Haley Salvian
Welcome to another episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. It's Haley Salvian and Shayna Goldman here with you. That's right. We have kicked Sean Gentile to the curb. Finally, he's gone. Shayna maybe filling in accidentally unbeknownst to her. Anyway, what's up, dude? Thanks for doing this.
- [03:26]
Shayna Goldman
Hey, yeah, we've traded up in sgs, so we had to keep. We had to keep it, you know, even with that.
- [03:32]
Haley Salvian
Yeah, it's perfect. Shayna was supposed to be a guest and then Sean said, you know what? I'm not available today anymore. So this is actually better. I, I agree.
- [03:41]
Shayna Goldman
We've.
- [03:41]
Haley Salvian
We've traded up in the SG category. A bit of news to start the show here, Shayna from yesterday. This happened just after the Wednesday show. I'm gonna give Sean, Sean and Frank the benefit of the doubt. Tyler Sagan is likely going to be out for the remainder of the Dallas Stars season because of an ACL injury. There aren't full tests done or a full diagnosis of the injury, but the Stars head coach said it's not. He's going to miss some time and it's likely the entire year. 17 points in 26 games so far for Tyler Sagan. Played in his 1000th NHL game back in October. It's difficult to see him have another injury like this after he was limited to 20 games last season because of hip surgery. Then he returned for the playoffs. He's having a good season. The Stars look good. Just another hit here for Tyler Sagan and maybe for the Dallas Stars. How do you think this is going to impact this group, Shayna?
- [04:45]
Shayna Goldman
I mean, they're lucky. They're literally one of the deepest forward groups in the league and that's going to help them. But you look at them right now without saying, without Duchenne, it's like, okay, so they're a little more of a two line team than I think we anticipate. And what works is like they have two drivers on each line, right? Like it's Ransom and Wyatt Johnson. So you could just throw a guy there right now it's Sam Steele and it'll be okay. And the same with like Hinton Robertson. You can throw Ben there and everything's still balanced out, but you don't want it that you don't have that depth up and down the lineup. Especially when, like you're in the Central Division. You're on a collision course for most likely the ABs in round two. And obviously the Stars had the edge last year. But you know that third line is going to be important. So like while they'll probably be fine because everyone else is really mid, this could be a problem down the line.
- [05:32]
Haley Salvian
Yeah, the, the Central Division outside of the Stars and the ABS isn't looking the greatest. I mean I say that after the Minnesota Wild. They're 8. 02. They're pretty hot right now. The Utah Mammoth just had a big last night. But if we're looking at legitimate Stanley cup contenders, it's the two of them kind of alone at the top. What do you think Matt Du Shane's potential return? He's nearing a return. He's day to day at this point. What do you think that's going to add to the Stars lineup?
- [06:05]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah, I think that's key for them. Curious, like does he play the wing in the top six somewhere? Does he try to like drive the third line? But I feel like when you look at the star success last year, that second line was a huge part of. It was Marchman, Duchenne and Sagan and I think Duchenne was the most important player on it. So to get him back is going to be a huge plus. It'll help the power play. It'll help it. Even strength. It. It just makes the Stars a little more versatile too. If you have more players that can play center, that's always a good thing. And it feels like you aren't locked into the same couple of combinations. So good thing there but you know, hasn't really played. So it's been a while and when players are older, I feel like you always have to worry about like the rust building up a little bit more. So I think the other guys will give him breathing room because he's never going to be expected to be the guy in Dallas and that's fine. He's not that at this point in his career. But you know, more depth doesn't. It's never a bad thing.
- [06:57]
Haley Salvian
Yeah. I think what made Sagan and Ben specifically interesting in the playoffs last year as I remember watching and being like where they're at in the lineup and how they're playing, like this is fine, like the numbers didn't scream off the page for Tyler Sagan. He had four goals, eight points in 18 games in the playoffs last year. And I was like that's, that's fine. Wyatt Johnson's doing his thing and you've got top of the lineup players doing their thing. You're still winning. I feel like Sagan and Ben specifically just kind of. That is exactly. What you would want from like a middle six duo of, you know, quote unquote old guys when we're talking about the 30 year olds. And that is what is maybe disappointing is you're gonna lose a bit of that in Tyler Sagan in the regular season and down the stretch of the postseason. Because I thought he was like pretty valuable to the stars last year, even though he's not, you know, the guy that stirs the drink anymore. But he's kind of aged into like decent old dude status. Yeah, we're talking about 33 year old. So, you know, it's fine. Chill, Haley.
- [08:09]
Shayna Goldman
Totally fine. It's totally fine. No, I feel like that it applies more like with Jay Ben, and then you compare the contracts and I know, like, it's hard to always look at players and then say, well, they're about because the contracts were signed so long ago, but it works because the stars have so many other, I don't want to say team friendly, but like cost effective deals that you're like, okay, no big deal. So it all kind of bounces out. Anyway. Ben is the one that's going to interest me a lot down the stretch because his postseason last year, I thought he was playing way too tough of minutes for like what he brings to the lineup and he wasn't delivering enough on the third line. But I feel like this season, the fact that he's playing top six again and he's just the complimentary part of that line, like, he's not the guy at all. He's literally the number three. I wonder if that gets his offense going a little bit more now because he's been scoring more and he looks good and effective in his role. Like, will that set him up for more success in the long run? Could that kind of make up for things? Because I don't think he produced enough. I think Sagan's the one that it's like if you're picking between their veterans, their season.
- [09:17]
Haley Salvian
Every day, right? Yeah, the, the grizzled old veterans. They went from like Joe Pavelski, who was like old dude without cup, classically non derogatory to like, here's these 33 and 36 year olds that we're now talking about maybe just speaks to how young they are or just how long Jamie, Ben and Tyler Sagan have been around. I just feel like we've been talking about those guys for such a long time. And then you're like, oh, we're like the same age.
- [09:47]
Shayna Goldman
And the Ben contract felt like it was literally forever, like it ended last season finally. And you're like, okay, yeah, yeah.
- [09:55]
Haley Salvian
So we'll await a little bit more news on Tyler Sagan, but it does look like he's going to be out for the year. And in terms of Matt Duchenne, Glenn Gallitzon said yesterday it's still day to day for him, quote, but if he can stack a few good days upon each other, then I think it's going to be sooner than later. So a little bit of news there maybe to come on the Dallas Stars. Something that just popped up here, Shayna. As we were getting ready to come on the show, the Tampa Bay Lightning of signed defender Ryan McDonough to a three year, $12.3 million extension. That's an AAV of $4.1 million for another 36 year old veteran. You're a fan of McDonough, right? Like, what do you make of this deal? You like it?
- [10:37]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah. Like do. I mean, listen, the contract's not going to age perfectly. Literally nothing is. But it doesn't matter for Tampa, when you think about their window, it's the same thing with the Yanni Gord contract. They're going longer term to help bring down the av, which is what you need to do in a cap world. But he's still effective. Like he's still one of the better shutdown defensemen. I feel like he didn't always get credit like in his prime. It wasn't until he went to Tampa Bay that I feel like he got the recognition he deserves because he was part of, you know, two Stanley cup winning teams. But he still takes on these huge minutes. I feel like his return to Tampa Bay was massive for them. It like revitalized Chernak, who I think struggled a lot without him. It made Victor Headman's life a lot easier, got the top four going and that's what you need. Like he's not your typical what you think of shutdown defenseman, but it's what it is in today's game. Right? Like The Slavins and McDonoughs of the world do it differently without being super, super, super physical. So it's fine. I feel like it just is an important part of their team. They know what their team looks like without him and it wasn't good when he was in Nashville. Right.
- [11:39]
Haley Salvian
The Tampa Bay Lightning are number one in the Atlantic, the East and really the whole league. You had a story come out looking at the vibe check and like what we learned in November and the it's really tight around the league, particularly in The Eastern Conference. The Tampa Bay Lightning are first in the Atlantic Division. They're third in the Eastern Conference, but like, they're. The Philadelphia Flyers are one point below them, The Devils are one point below, and the Pittsburgh Penguins are still in and around it. There's teams that we may be expected.
- [12:16]
To be like, rebuilding or struggling. Not so much talking about the Devils, but people had completely written off the Penguins. Flyers are still in their retool. So it's been an interesting year in the NHL. Just past the quarter mark. I'm curious what you think about the Lightning specifically, because I think we went into the year saying, I don't remember if you picked them to win the Stanley cup this year. I think we did though, when we were doing previews. So this was a team that we went into the year thinking, like, they're.
- [12:48]
Shayna Goldman
Going to be great.
- [12:50]
Haley Salvian
They're up there. They're not really separating themselves the way that a Colorado Avalanche are. The abs are just a totally different beast. What have you made about Tampa at the quartermark or as we get into December?
- [13:04]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah, they had such a bad start, which is why they're not separated like I feel like they should be. And it's my bias because I picked them to win. I thought they were going to last year.
- [13:17]
But I think that they're. They're figuring out ways to win with so many injuries and that's definitely encouraging. Like JJ Moser stepped up for Headman in a huge way on the back end. I think Basiles, he looks better. Brandon Hagel has been outstanding and that helped because Braden Point had a slower start to the year and also missed time. So it's a bunch of things clicking and it's just. I feel like John Cooper doesn't get enough credit for how he's managed this group with players having to step up in big roles and so many players coming in from Syracuse when like, this isn't a team that has some star studded pipeline. This is a team that traded a million picks and prospects to be where they are now and they still make it work. Like, it's a credit to the scouting and development, but it's also a credit to Cooper in the systems for being able to like keep everything going. I just think it's the power play is the one thing I'm still looking at going that should be better. And obviously you have like Darren Radish playing the point on the power play, not Victor Headman right now. And yeah, point miss time too. But that's the one element that I'm like, if you get that going, I think that they're going to really level up, like relative to the rest of the east.
- [14:26]
Haley Salvian
The standings are so clustered. Shayna, do you see a fix for that? Like do you want to see the NHL go into the PWHL 3 to 1? Do we just want to sit here and be like, there'll be some separation. It's only December 4th, but like it's more clustered than really it ever has been. And I suggest everyone should go and read Shayna's story that came out the other day. Just looking at this data that you have here, the visual to see just how tight it is in the middle. And then there's the one dot like way up high. I assume that's the abs, which it's so funny to see it.
- [15:04]
Visually like that. But what do you make of this? And is the fix just three to one point system? Gary, come on. It works in the pw. We love it in the pw. Just do it.
- [15:15]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah, like last year the standings were clustered at, I think it was what, November 30th in that viz there.
- [15:21]
Haley Salvian
Yeah, but.
- [15:22]
Shayna Goldman
And they have.
- [15:23]
Haley Salvian
It wasn't quite the like outlier like Colorado, I guess.
- [15:27]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah, but it wasn't as tight. So still like you still have the outlier this year and everyone else is that closely knit. It's like 11 points separating third place from 29th in the league. Right. That's not a lot at all.
- [15:38]
Haley Salvian
Every day I look and the Penguins are either first in the league or last. You know, it's.
- [15:43]
Shayna Goldman
It's just so odd, everything about it. So are you still going to have tightly contested standings in a 3, 2, 1? Sure, because there's a lot of three point games. We're seeing overtimes up on the rise, like way more than seasons passed right now. And like there's little things you can do about it. But I think the big winner here is the three to one point system. Like yes, we love it on the PWL, but also, you know, a regulation win that's in 60 minutes of five on five. Typically hockey like that right there should be worth more than three on three, which I love three and three. I loved four on four, two, but it's not true hockey. Right. And same with the shootout. It shouldn't count for the same. But it's also worth more than losing games in overtime. Like there's just a way to like adequately reward play and not just see, I don't know, I just think the loser points like weighing everything down so much and the standings don't change dramatically. They change a bit. Right. Like, Winnipeg benefits from it over a team like, I don't know, Seattle. Yeah, but it's not. It's not that dramatic that you're like, oh, this will change everything. It'll just, I think, have a better depiction of who's actually good. Right.
- [16:49]
Haley Salvian
There's been a lot of three point games at this point in the season already this year, so I feel like we're seeing a lot of that this year. Specifically.
- [17:00]
Like, I was looking through your story to, like, the Ducks look like a real threat. Rebuilding teams like the Sharks and the Blackhawks are in the mix. Kraken in the West. And to your point, Shayna, maybe those teams aren't quite as high or maybe they're higher, maybe they're lower. If there is a three, two, one point system, I just think it makes so much sense to, like, it just makes too much sense. Like, why isn't it like that? That's just always my general thought when the PWHL did, I was like, yeah, right, yeah, regulation win is more valuable. You get three points if you lose an OT or shootout. Here's two. Or if you win an OT or shoot out. Here's to. It just makes too much sense for me to understand why the NHL hasn't wanted to go to that. And maybe it's just that they don't like change. I get it. Me neither.
- [17:52]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah, that's the NHL way of they don't like change. But, like, the change would be good and it would make games more interesting. Right? Like if you're playing a division rival, which is something the NHL loves to promote. Like, hey, everybody, look, the Canes and Capitals are playing each other and they're former playoff rivals and they could meet in round two and all of that crap you could promote. Okay, so say the game is tied with 57 minutes to go and they're tight in the standings. That extra point is going to be more meaningful. So maybe we see teams try a little harder in the last few minutes of games because you have to approach it differently, knowing you could get three points versus it's all the same if you go to overtime. And like, do you remember a couple of years ago in the Wild were in overtime against the Nashville Predators and they pulled their goaltender in overtime and it was like if they lost that game, they were getting no points because they willingly pulled the goalie and it was like a rule. None of us knew. It was something so ballsy. And it's like they did it for that game. Was massive for them.
- [18:49]
Haley Salvian
They really wanted to win.
- [18:51]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah. They needed the points to, like, be in the playoff picture. Like, that is so important. So it's like, why not? Why not see what teams would do to get weird? Like, maybe we'll see goalie polls earlier. Maybe we'll see teams go more 5, 4 forwards, 1 D at even strength to try to tie up, to try to type a game of pull ahead. Points mean more.
- [19:09]
Haley Salvian
Yeah. And maybe we would see a little bit of a change in terms of approach. Like, I know with three on three, it's a lot of puck possession, but, like, you do see a lot of teams just like, all right, let's circle back and then we'll go and enter the zone.
- [19:25]
Shayna Goldman
Oop.
- [19:25]
Haley Salvian
It's not there. Let's circle back and just keep the puck. Like, that's still gonna stay. Because obviously, puck possession's important, and three on three can be, like, these wild swings of momentum. I get it. But maybe we would see a little bit of a different approach in terms of the attack or the defense or the general vibe. And I think to your original point, too, it's one thing to have a. The point system the way the NHL has it now with, like, five on five, like, regular overtime. Like, the PWHL doesn't do three on three ot, but three on three is completely different, and you're still giving the same amount of points. I don't know. I'm with you, Shayna. Every time. It's one of those things where every time it's brought up, I feel very passionate about it, and then, you know, my brain cell just floats away, and I'm like, whatever. They're never gonna do it.
- [20:18]
Shayna Goldman
No, probably. I never thought we'd get three on three, and now we're here that I'm like, okay, that's true. But then again, I also think we've seen some other swings to, like, not change the pace of games, but it's. It's not, like, directly correlated. But I'm sure that there's some influence here. Like, they. There was, like, an uptick in penalty calling in the last 10 minutes of regulation of games, and that was helping, like, just by consequence, helping, like, limit the number of overtimes. Like, there's things you can do and tweaks you can make that way. But is that really the move, or could you just fix a problem that has existed for some time? I don't know.
- [20:56]
Haley Salvian
Right. Yeah. I think it's interesting and looking at the way that you changed the standings to, like, I mentioned the Ducks. Like, they're still number one in the Pacific and the regular standings, but if you give them all their OT wins, they have six overtime wins. They would have seven more points in the standings. The Vegas Golden Knights would have more as well by nature of their regulation wins. But that's something that I don't know. Just seeing the ways in which the standings and the points and the separation between some teams changes is. Is super interesting. I recommend everyone take a look. The Ottawa Senators kind of dropped off a bit here too.
- [21:37]
Shayna Goldman
And the Oilers. Yeah, because they.
- [21:39]
Haley Salvian
Yeah, they haven't regulations, five OT losses.
- [21:43]
Shayna Goldman
And they have only six regulations, six regulation wins, which, yikes, that's the same as the Canucks.
- [21:51]
Haley Salvian
We should talk more about regulation wins. At the end of the day, it matters.
- [21:57]
Shayna Goldman
I'm gonna track this all season, though. I'm gonna keep track of it and see how much it changes too. Just like to see if it actually matters. Like as the months go on.
- [22:04]
Haley Salvian
Yeah, love that. Perfect. Okay, let's take a quick break. When we come back, I think we should like do a deep dive into the pwhl. We kicked Shawn off. This is a women's hockey podcast now. That's coming up next on the Athletic Hockey Show.
- [22:22]
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- [23:46]
Chris Murphy
This podcast is brought to you by T. Rowe Price. Join me as I chat with Chris Murphy their head of ETF specialists to unpack what ETFs are, how they work, and how T. Rowe Price is helping investors make more informed decisions. So as a pure investment tool, as an ETF versus, let's just say a mutual fund, what are the advantages and disadvantages between those two?
- [24:08]
The ETF structure itself allows for the cost to really be materially lower. And so on average, an ETF is going to be a lot less expensive from an expense ratio perspective.
- [24:19]
Let's talk about the philosophy that differentiates differentiates T. Rowe Price from other organizations that are in the ETF space. What's that secret sauce that you guys have?
- [24:27]
It comes back to kind of the core principles of our firm, which is curiosity around what can we do to find an edge or where can we innovate?
- [24:35]
Listen in to discover how T. Rowe Price's active ETFs can help you add an edge to outperform the index. Learn more@tieroprice.com Explore ETFs guys, thanks for.
- [24:47]
Haley Salvian
Helping me carry my Christmas tree.
- [24:48]
Chris Murphy
Zoe. This thing weighs a ton.
- [24:50]
Shayna Goldman
Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man.
- [24:52]
Haley Salvian
Santa, Santa, did you come?
- [24:54]
Chris Murphy
He's talking to you, Bridges.
- [24:55]
Haley Salvian
I'm not. Of course he did.
- [24:57]
Shayna Goldman
Right Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list.
- [25:01]
Chris Murphy
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Shayna Goldman
I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister and.
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Haley Salvian
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Shayna Goldman
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Haley Salvian
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Shayna Goldman
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Haley Salvian
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Shayna Goldman
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Haley Salvian
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Chris Murphy
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Shayna Goldman
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- [25:50]
Haley Salvian
All right, we are back. The PWHL is a few weeks into its third season. Now they stood up two expansion teams in Seattle and Vancouver. Shayna seems like two to four teams could be coming next season. Some big news to watch for the pwhl. But first, like a little check in on the expansion teams. Both of them were in action on Wednesday. Seattle Torrent. So this is a new thing is having to fight the snooze for women's hockey.
- [26:17]
Shayna Goldman
Now.
- [26:19]
Haley Salvian
The end of the Seattle torrent game against the New York sirens last night was wild. Were a lot of people sleeping? Maybe it was late, I was fighting it too. But two late goals by Alex Carpenter and Hillary Knight, two primary assists from Hannah Bilka. They were on the power play the entire time. Or excuse me, one of the primary assists was Hillary Knight. The second was Hannah Bilka. But that kind of u S. Olympic power play trio coming together on the power play. In the final two minutes of this.
- [26:50]
Shayna Goldman
Game.
- [26:52]
Haley Salvian
Christina Calton Kova for the sirens was ejected given a game misconduct for a major hit from behind. Seattle goes on the power play. They're down one nothing. They score twice from, as I said, the US Olympic trio that are on the power play. This, the team is just stacked. Kind of not a great offensive game for them obviously until that point. But that's the kind of star power that the Seattle Torrent have that you can just have Carpenter, Knight and Bilka. Oh, and by the way, Julia Gosling, who could be on the Canadian Olympic team coming together for a last minute win. So that was exciting. On the Vancouver end of things, another tough loss for the golden eyes. They haven't won since their 43 OT win on their opening day the season against the Seattle Torrent. A two nothing loss to the Boston fleet. Two shots in the first period. It's. It's tough out here for a team that on paper has the most offense in the pwhl. Shayna, do you have any, any tips for the golden eyes?
- [28:00]
Shayna Goldman
I'm flying to Vancouver, I'm sitting in the stands and I'm going to scream shoot. Just the entire time would be the most obnoxious fan in the world because like their game against New York, I was, listen, I didn't expect New York to be good this year. Like I had no illusions. They lost key players including Carpenter and Schroeder. And I was like this is probably going to be bad. And I was shocked that not only how bad Vancouver looked relative to them and even Seattle up to that power play. Like the sirens were way better at 5 on 5 the entire game. But like I cannot believe how few shots Vancouver has generated. And the game against Boston, it's the same thing. Like they have half of the fleets shot total I think in the third period and like, at least they got their chances towards the end a little bit more. But like, it's, it's. It's like we have to remember, like, okay, yes, the rules help them build these really good teams. But also it's the same thing in any league. Like, you're putting together a team from scratch of players who, sure, a couple of them might have experience. Like you said, like, this is the USA power play playing together. You're going to have multiple players from Montreal on one team now. It's just like the result of it, but it's still a new team, new environment, new coaches, new systems, and you're building it from scratch. So there's an adjustment period. But like, please, Vancouver, shoot the puck just a little bit more.
- [29:19]
Haley Salvian
Yeah, I think we're seeing a lot of these growing pains for, for both of these teams, brand new rosters. It's an expedited training camp. You don't really get a preseason with the full team. Like, I don't even think. I actually think that all the teams are almost being like too cheeky with their preseason lines. It's like no one wanted to show their hand. So like all their lines and deep pairs were jumbled. Even though I think some organizations had what they're like, opening day top line would look like, they just weren't rolling them out because they didn't want people to know what they were doing was just like, why don't you just like work on things to be ready for the season? You have two to three games to be able to do it. I understand you want to give people opportunity higher up in the lineup to try to crack this roster, but there, it's just, it's such a quick.
- [30:09]
Run up to the season that I think you're seeing with brand new teams that it's going to take them some time in real time, in games that matter to. To figure it all out.
- [30:21]
Vancouver the only team without a regulation win this season. Now, as we were talking about the three to one point system.
- [30:29]
You know, I think we've seen the teams that were ripped apart actually faring pretty well this season. I think there were a lot of concerns about the Boston Fleet. They lose Hillary Knight and I still have questions of like, who's going to score goals for the Fleet, but they also have Aaron Frankel, so scoring two goals has been enough for them over the course of the season. They're 3, 0. That hasn't been an issue. They're the only team that hasn't lost a game yet this season. So the Boston fleet looks fine. People were worried about the Minnesota Frost losing Sophie, Jake, Sinclair, Thompson.
- [31:07]
They'Ve been fine. They've scored nine goals this season, you know, second most in the league. So it's going to be interesting to see now how this works once we go through this again. Shayna so to the news here. It's not breaking news because Amy Shear did allude to this during Ottawa City Council meetings back in October when she was talking about lands down 2.0. I feel like we could do like a whole deep dive pot on that. So I don't think we can dive into that right now. But she did mention this publicly several weeks ago that the league is expanding and growing and that they could grow by two to four more teams by next season. She doubled down on this and made it even like firmer in an interview with CNBC like a week or so ago now that she would bet, if she was a betting woman she would say that they are going to be adding four expansion teams next season. I have talked about this on like a couple podcasts or on our CBC show. So I'm curious your thought Shayna, because like my overriding thought has been do I necessarily agree that the PWL should be getting to 12 teams so quickly? No. I personally don't see the rush, but I'm not a business person. Like I don't know what stuff they have, I don't know what's going on under the hood. I don't see a rush. But if we believe Amy Shear and we take the Executive Vice president of Business operations at her word that the goal is to get to 12 teams, that's their magic number. I would rather just see the PWHL rip the band aid off, do it all at once. There is a lot of talent coming in the draft this year out of college. This year it's going to be an incredibly deep like first round on its own with several players who could have gone first overall on different seasons. Abby Murphy, Caroline Harvey, Layla Edwards, Kirsten Sims, even Lacey Eden's great. Like there's so much talent coming. I think there'll be a wave of talent coming from Europe once the Olympics are over. A lot of European players or international players haven't wanted to make the jump or change their training plans in the lead up to Milan 2026. That might change. So there's going to be an influx of talent. I think it'll be fine. But more than anything I just don't want to see two back to back years of adding two teams and having Two more expansion drafts just. It's going to be a crapshoot if they add four, but, like, just do it and get it over with. That's my thought. Where are you at, Shayna?
- [33:42]
Shayna Goldman
Okay. I'm a little opposite, because, like, I agree. I'm not worried about talent. Yeah, like, the talent. There's a ton of talent coming in. I think there's enough talent for four more teams. You had players leaving the PWHL to go back to Europe this year, too. Like, which is very normal. And I think a good thing for the league, too. It shows, like, there's more hockey out there. There's more options for players. That's never a bad thing. I just worry about the business side of it. And, like, yes, if they're saying they could do for. It's like, I trust you, but I'm also like, but should you. Should you jump to that, or does the slower rollout of two year, you know, two teams and then another two teams kind of help you expand the excitement a little bit more and keep easing everybody into it and also just help keep things on, like, sturdier ground? Because sometimes things that get too big too soon, you know, like, the. The faster you rise, the faster you fall. I don't know. It's some sort of saying, I'm really bad at those. So I'm just going to, you know.
- [34:37]
Haley Salvian
You know, But I'm like, I don't know. I can't help you. I'm not.
- [34:40]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah, like, it's close enough.
- [34:43]
Haley Salvian
Smarter person will be like, oh, yeah. This saying. I'm like, I don't know.
- [34:46]
Shayna Goldman
I don't know. I don'. No, that's. There was, like, a Jeopardy. Category of these recently, and I was, like, zeroing out. That's just. It's not. Not for me. But, yeah, like, I just worry, like, if you do things too quickly, it's like, there's so much chaos that you don't want to see. Like, cracks start forming that you can't fix because everything's happening at once. And then women's hockey looks unstable again. And it's like, haven't we done this enough? And then I also look at it, like, get the Ottawa situation figured out, maybe work on New York a little bit. Because I still not thrilled with that. I feel like. I feel like that'll just be the conversation. I think it's like, just slowly unroll.
- [35:25]
Haley Salvian
I think that's a great point. And I know we've seen the wnba, for example. They expanded really, really fast back when the league Started and had to relocate teams. They had to fold teams. They had to go down to, you know, a fewer number. Now we're seeing a big boom and expansion in the wnba, but that's like, decades later, right? So I think we've seen the harm that can come from expanding too quickly. So I think that's a great point by you, Shane. And I also do wonder. And as much as I think, like, just rip the band aid off, like, if you're gonna do it anyways, just do it in one go. For the fans, for the players, for the stability. More of the people who are gonna be like, can you imagine having to move to Seattle and then going to Detroit and then a year later going to Chicago? Like, that sucks. Like, I know that's the life of a professional athlete, but let's also be real here. These players aren't making that much money. There are still a lot of people making league minimum making, you know, what is in many of these cities not considered to be a livable wage. I know there's incentives that build this up, but, like, that's a lot to ask of people who are, you know, some of who are making $40,000 a year, $50,000 a year. So I would like to see them do what's best for the players and keep that in mind. And I think the league will. They've always said we're a player's first league. They were. This league was born from a player movement. So I do think they will keep that in mind. But I guess to stick on the devil's advocate side for you, Shane, and parsing it out is maybe doing two this year allows you to consider two teams that might not be on the table right now in the future, if that makes sense. Like, everyone's talking about Detroit. Detroit makes a lot of sense. Where are you playing? Where are you practicing? Like, that is going to be an issue when we're looking at the Detroit market. Little Caesars arena is booked and busy, and they're about to get a WNBA team playing there as well. So that's my concern with Detroit. But, like, maybe is there infrastructure coming with the wnba? I believe they're starting to make a practice facility for that team. Is that something that can be shared? Is that something that can have ice? I mean, I feel like they're probably going to build that just to have a basketball court. But, like, does going to two different cities now and then going to Detroit a year or two from now allow you to work on some infrastructure, find a place to play, to Make Detroit more realistic.
- [38:07]
Or Pittsburgh or D.C. like, those are some of the questions or, like, the benefits or the pros I would see of, like, going two and two if you had to pick right now. Shayna, are you like, I don't care. Let them play on a Tuesday night in Detroit, or are you looking at different teams? Like, what are your top two or four expansion markets for the pwhl?
- [38:28]
Shayna Goldman
I do like Detroit a lot, and I think if they decide Detroit now, I think that'll help. Like, say they are building that practice facility for the W. Like, it's like, okay now before it's built and you have to strip things down, like, change the plans. I wonder if that would be, like, a better solution. But I think that they would be exciting. I think they make sense. They're like this, like, midpoint. They're the Midwest. It's like, okay. And it's a big, really passionate hockey market. I think that would be a good thing. We see how Minnesota is, and I feel like they'd be similar. I like the idea of Denver, too, because, again, you have teams out west, so you need that travel to be eased a little bit. So it's not Vancouver just going to New York all the time. But I just feel like they've had a lot of success with their takeover tours, too. That. That could be really exciting.
- [39:15]
Haley Salvian
Yeah, they broke Detroit's US Record, and then Detroit broke it right back. But Denver showed well, and I think players really enjoyed it. I think Denver's this great option for people. I know it's not the same because it's in the US but there are people who've said, like, Calgary or Edmonton, like, Calgary is awesome. The Inferno, legendary. Like, if the PWHL expanded to Calgary, I know they haven't wanted to do this, but just. Just go back to the Inferno. Just do it. Like, please.
- [39:48]
I would love to see that. However, with the Saddle Dome being, you know, crumbly and old and being demolished soon, I don't think you can go to Calgary until new arenas there. Denver is kind of the American alternative option. It's. I mean, that's how it was always explained to me at least, is Denver is like, Calgary American version. So maybe that could be. We're just like, what are sayings? What's geography?
- [40:16]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah, no, that one actually, it checks out. That one totally checks out. Because it's like, you're not going to. It's not like, okay, because you're in Seattle. You have to go to California.
- [40:24]
Haley Salvian
Like, yes.
- [40:25]
Shayna Goldman
Okay, you're close to the Teams all the way out West. You're close to Minnesota. There could be rivalries there. I like that.
- [40:31]
Haley Salvian
And it's just beautiful. Nice mountains. If you like that kind of outdoor vibe. That's nice. So I'm a fan of Denver. Let me give you one option. This is the most important thing in my life right now. Chicago expansion. And you ensure, you collude, you cheat, you get Abby Murphy there, I'm in.
- [40:59]
Shayna Goldman
I like the idea of Chicago, too. Again, that's super passionate. Fans. Like, that's a city that is big enough to have two baseball teams. I feel like that's always, like, so telling for me. Like, New York's able to have multiple teams that you're like, okay, that could work, right? Like, Blackhawks fans are super passionate, too. You're going to a place where hockey just makes a ton of sense. It just works. And then I also love the idea of, like, two Chicago teams coming up the ranks together in hockey. And it could be this, like, really cool moment for them because it's like a new era for the Blackhawks. And obviously, like, the men's and women's teams in all the cities aren't, like, perfectly linked, but it's. It's fun. I think there's something exciting about it because it's this, like, historic team and franchise, but it's like this new wave of fans coming in because of players like Connor Bedard. So you bring in a women's star, and it's like, Bedard and whoever it may be, say it's Layla Edwards. You're like, go, oh, yeah. There you go. You just have it that it's like, look at the two of them coming up the ranks in just this new moment for Chicago hockey. Like, that would be.
- [42:04]
Haley Salvian
Yeah, yeah. It would be super cool. I mean, Layla Edwards or Caroline Harvey or whomever from the first round, have your pick would be a great building block, but Abby Murphy is from the south side, Chicago, and they just. The league needs to cheat to figure it out. Make up the rules. I know you can do it. I won't ask questions. You know, this is the one time where I'm like, wow, what are the odds that's so crazy that you have the fourth overall pick for Chicago? I believe you. I believe that the dice rolled that way. It's going to be interesting to see. The PWHL is going to Chicago this month. They will be playing at All State arena, which is where we would assume a PWHL team would probably need to be based. Again, kind of like Little Caesars United center is booked and busy. There is not just one tenant in there. We know it's important for the PWHL to have not just good infrastructure, but, like, available ice times for practice and for games. And a PWHL team would be like, the fourth priority in Chicago behind the Blackhawks and hoops and events. So Allstate Arena. We'll see how that goes. It's not in the downtown Courtsmore suburbs. It's in Rosemont, Illinois. So once the takeover tours there, I think we'll get a pretty good look at if something like that could work. Or is this going to be a Boston Lowell situation that people are going to be mad about? So a couple of interesting touch points to come, but I think if I were to pick my four, I'm gonna go Chicago, I'm gonna go Detroit.
- [43:37]
Probably Denver, and then a Canadian city. Like, maybe it's controversial of me to go three and one and then a Canadian city would either be like a Halifax or an Edmonton.
- [43:50]
Shayna Goldman
I like that. Yep, that makes sense.
- [43:52]
Haley Salvian
And I actually kind of like the idea of Halifax more than Edmonton. Respectfully.
- [43:56]
Shayna Goldman
I think Edmonton you do eventually with Calgary, when they're ready. Like, I feel like I agree. Them two coming in together, start the R Battle of Alberta, like, go off. And also if you're hitting the Midwest touchdowns already, basically you're going Chicago, Detroit, Denver. Like, I feel like you're covering ground pretty well, so you. You can afford to go back east. That it would be totally fine. And Halifax would be fun. And it would be a little bit different here because they would be the only PW team without an NHL team there. Right?
- [44:27]
Haley Salvian
Yeah. And I think it would just be like the Halifax moose head there. So junior hockey, and they draw particularly well. So I feel like they could be like the preeminent pro team, at least when we're talking about hockey in the area.
- [44:44]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah. And that could help you in different markets, too. You could learn how that works. To see, like, could Quebec eventually be an option? Should maybe you ever consider go going to Wisconsin and seeing, like, how you would handle things with college hockey being so prominent there. Like. Like, it's a different vibe. But why not? Like, you don't only have to go to the 32 cities at the NHL is in already.
- [45:05]
Haley Salvian
Yeah. My personal thought has always been, like, when people bring up Madison, I'm like, let the badgers cook there. Leave them alone.
- [45:13]
Shayna Goldman
I. I'm torn on that one because part of me is like, that would be so cool. I feel like the players would love it. But I could be totally wrong. Like, that's just me being like, I.
- [45:20]
Haley Salvian
Think it would just be a bunch of badgers going there.
- [45:24]
Shayna Goldman
Wouldn't be the worst thing, but, like.
- [45:25]
Haley Salvian
No, they'd be incredibly good. Yeah. If we had Max. Super cute.
- [45:31]
Shayna Goldman
I've never been. But if we had to pick a different US city that doesn't have an NHL team, if it's like, okay, that's not the one to start with, then, like, maybe Portland's the move. Ooh, that'd be different. And I feel like NWSL is successful there. And you're right by Seattle and Vancouver, which for all things footy has, like, a great little rivalry. Like, I kind of like that.
- [45:54]
Haley Salvian
Yeah, I was going to say, too. For Halifax, there is a bit of proof of concept of women's sport already. The Northern Super League, the Canadian pro soccer league that launched last year, they were third in average attendance behind Vancouver and Toronto. So while Halifax maybe looks like a small Canadian market type thing, that's actually been a city and a market that has shown the desire to support women's sports, and that is for the Northern Super League. And I can only imagine it'd be even greater for a hockey team in that market and in this country. Okay, that's our expansion, I guess. I feel like we agree on everything. Detroit, Chicago, Halifax, Denver. I'd go on that road trip.
- [46:38]
Shayna Goldman
Works for me. I think it'd be fun. I'm in. I'm gonna go sit in all the stands and yell, shoot at all the new teams.
- [46:43]
Haley Salvian
Shoot the pod. Yeah.
- [46:45]
Shayna Goldman
You're the most annoying fan in the world.
- [46:47]
Haley Salvian
Yeah. It's crazy. Dom has been working on a PWHL model, and I actually think we should blame Dom. I think he jinxed Vancouver because he was like, wow, this looks like the best team on the planet and they haven't won since, so.
- [46:59]
Shayna Goldman
Yep. And the cards look so nice with the Golden Eyes logo. Like, he sent me that. I'm like, damn, the Vancouver card's my favorite. Well, they're broken Dom's faults.
- [47:08]
Haley Salvian
It's Dom's fault. We kicked Sean off the show and we're blaming Dom for all our troubles. This is the best energy.
- [47:15]
Shayna Goldman
Great.
- [47:15]
Haley Salvian
Okay, let's take one more break, then we're out of here. We'll be right back on the Athletic Hockey Show.
- [47:24]
Chris Murphy
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Haley Salvian
For people@servicenow.com.
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Hannah Berner are those the cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying? Paige desorbo they are Tommy John and yes, I'm stocking up because they make the best holiday gifts. So generous. Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when.
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Shayna Goldman
It comes to me.
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Haley Salvian
So I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest underwear, and best fitting loungewear. So nothing for your bestie?
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Shayna Goldman
Of course I'm getting my dad, Tommy John. And you.
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Haley Salvian
Of course.
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Shayna Goldman
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Haley Salvian
Exactly.
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Shayna Goldman
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All right, welcome back to the Athletic Hockey Show. Very quickly here before Shayna and I get out of here, two of Canada's. Oh, I'm sorry, Shayna, you're American. It's fine. This is Mike. This is the Canada corner. Unfortunately for you, two of Canada's greatest hockey players are being inducted into the IHF hall of Fame. Just came out Wednesday night. That is Cassie Campbell, Pascal and Patrice Bergeron. They're among seven inductees into the hall of Fames class of 2026. Cassie Campbell obviously won two Olympic gold medals as captain of Team Canada. Seven gold at women's world championships, 10 different tournament appearances from 94 to 2006. It's kind of crazy that she hasn't been inducted into anything like this. She has been retired for, like, she has been on Hockey Night in Canada for. Or just on broadcast, excuse me, I should say on Sportsnet or espn for decades now. So this was long, long overdue for Cassie Campbell. Pascal. Patrice Bergeron, of course, won Olympic gold with Team Canada 2010, 2014 World Junior Championship, Boston Bruins captain. So two Canada greats getting in.
- [51:06]
Shayna Goldman
Yeah.
- [51:06]
Haley Salvian
Thoughts on Canadian excellence.
- [51:10]
Shayna Goldman
Two Canadian icons that I'm so glad are retired and never playing again. No, you think? I feel like you think of both of them, though, and it's like, oh, that's. That is like a great era. Like, Cassie Campbell has been so involved in all levels of hockey for so long. It. It really is mind boggling that it took this long. And Patrice Bergeron, like, he's the gold standard for two way play at all levels, internationally, leadership, all of the good things and more. Like, name the selkie after him because he won it a million times. And like, sometimes it was like, everyone's lazy because we don't want to measure defense, but it's also like, no, he's that good. So. Yeah. But very good choices.
- [51:52]
Haley Salvian
A couple more inductees here and we should say like, Hockey hall of Fame next for Cassie Campbell. I feel like I've been hitting that table in the builder category specifically, but also as a player. There's a backlog. Like, she could go in in both, but I think Danielle Savageau getting in as a builder finally after all these years probably opens the door for more women to be recognized for what they've done done to grow the game specifically for. For women's sports. So Cassie Campbell Pascal, the Hockey hall of Fame is next for you. Couple other inductees, Florence Schelling, legendary goaltender Thomas Vanik, Nicholas Cronwall, and builder Ralph Krueger. So that's your 2026 IHF hall of Fame class. Congrats to everyone.
- [52:39]
Shayna Goldman
Congrats, congrats. They all. They've all earned it. But no, I'm. She should be in as a builder. We need more women in as builders. Yeah. Like, we need more women in the hall of Fame, period.
- [52:51]
Haley Salvian
We need more women just there.
- [52:54]
Shayna Goldman
Yep. Perfect. No notes.
- [52:57]
Haley Salvian
Thanks, everyone, for listening to this. Episode of the Athletic Hockey Show. That's all I'm that's all we've got to say. Thanks Shayna for pinch hitting here. Sean will unfortunately be back next week. Prospect boys have the next show on Friday. Thanks everyone for listening.
- [53:17]
Chris Murphy
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