Are the Pistons contenders? + Under the radar numbers

Summary

The Athletic NBA Daily – Episode Summary

Date: November 10, 2025
Hosts: Dave DuFour, Zena Keita, Esfandiar Baraheni ("Ben")
Episode Theme:
Are the Pistons contenders? + Under the radar numbers

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the hosts dive into some of the NBA’s hottest early-season storylines, with a special focus on the surging Detroit Pistons and whether they’re on the cusp of true contention. The group also unpacks standout performances, key trends flying under the radar, and the impact of surprising roster moves as the new season gets underway. Other featured topics include the Rockets’ surprising chemistry, Tyrese Maxey drawing Allen Iverson comparisons, Wembanyama’s development with De’Aaron Fox, and deep dives into overlooked teams and players.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Detroit Pistons: One Piece Away from Contending?

• [02:55] Ben kicks off by praising the Pistons, suggesting they may be "one dude away from being the best team in the East." Cade Cunningham and Jalen Duren are highlighted for major development.
• Performance Spotlight:
  • Jalen Duren (Last 5 games): 24 PPG, 13 RPG, 2 APG, 1 BPG, 70% true shooting — “That’s just absurd by anybody’s standards.” (Dave DuFour, 03:52)
  • Highlighted for his finishing, alley-oop chemistry with Cade, and physical dominance.
• Team Profile:
  • Pistons have surrounded their core with robust defense; Isaiah Stewart noted as a key rim protector (when healthy) and shooter.
  • “They are mini Rockets…beating teams with their athleticism.” (Zena K, 05:24)
• What’s Missing?:
  • Discussion centers on the need for a versatile, creative shooting big—prototypes like Jaren Jackson Jr. or Evan Mobley, or a player like Pascal Siakam or Lauri Markkanen.
    • “If Jaren Jackson somehow was made…that fit is perfect.” (Dave DuFour, 05:14)
    • “Jalen Duren…now looks more like a pillar for Detroit.” (Zena K, 06:07)
• Youth Movement:
  • Hosts emphasize the Pistons’ young core; Duren and Cade still under 25.
    • “They’re so young and figuring this thing out...exceeding expectations.” (Dave DuFour, 08:12)
• Final Take: Pistons are legit and fun but still need that elite, versatile frontcourt piece to make a Finals push.

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2. Tyrese Maxey’s Rise and Allen Iverson Comparisons

• [09:57] Zena K references a viral social media comparison between Maxey’s and Iverson’s statistical outputs in their minutes-heavy, ball-dominant roles.
  • “Allen Iverson at 42 minutes. Tyrese Maxey just under at 41. 33 points. 33 and a half points per game for Tyrese Maxey. Allen Iverson 31.1...” (Zena K, 10:21)
  • Maxey: Higher FG% (47% vs. Iverson’s 42%), 3PT% (48% vs. 32%), RPG (5 vs. 4), APG (8.5 vs. 4.6), with only steals per game favoring AI.
  • “Tyrese…has taken this burden and completely made lemonade.” (Zena K, 11:48)
• Host Banter:
  • “He’s not passing the ball to Eric Snow and Aaron McKee.” (Ben, 11:50)
  • Maxey’s workload (41 MPG, most since 2010s)—and how well he’s handling it under Nick Nurse.

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3. Victor Wembanyama & The Importance of Guards

• [12:13] Discussion shifts to how De’Aaron Fox’s return helped Wemby bounce back after the worst stretch of his (short) career.
  • “Guards matter a lot…especially, it seems like, for Wemby.” (Ben, 12:40)
  • With a second creator, defenses can’t just double Wemby on every touch.
• Offensive Structure:
  • The interplay of paint touches and playmaking guards (Stephon Castle, Fox, and Dylan Harper) opens opportunities for the Spurs’ offense and for Wemby specifically.
    • “You get better spacing, you get clear reads…Wemby got coherent touches in the offense.” (Zena K, 14:29)
  • Fox’s measured pace post-injury helps with cohesion and intentional play.
    • “Fox wasn’t playing too fast…just organizing the offense and pushing the pace.” (Zena K, 15:22)
• Playoff Preview: No team regrets having too many ball-handlers—“This is the sort of reason why.” (Ben, 15:50)

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4. Houston Rockets: Unexpected Chemistry & Success

• [15:52] Rockets have surprised many; currently crash the offensive boards and shoot at an elite clip.
  • “Is it sustainable to snag 40% of your own misses and hit 43% of threes?” (Ben, 15:52)
  • Massive win vs. Bucks: 20 offensive rebounds and 38.5% from three.
• Offensive Engine:
  • Kevin Durant + Alperen Sengun pick-and-roll is “unstoppable.”
    • “If you switch that action, Kevin Durant is just going to feast…if you don’t switch, Sengun is on a 4-on-3 situation. This is where he lives offensively.” (Dave DuFour, 16:59)
  • Surrounding shooters/cutters (Amen Thompson, Jabari Smith Jr., Reed Sheppard) open up the floor.
  • The offense’s identity revolves around Sengun’s patience, touch, and reads:
    • “Rockets, despite not having a guard, feel tremendously in control of all of their games.” (Zena K, 19:29)
• Defying Trends: Bottom three in pace, but top-10 in offensive efficiency—playing slow, methodical, and effective ball.

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5. 2021 NBA Draft Class Ascending

• [20:00] Reflecting on multiple “breakouts” from players in the 2021 draft: Sengun, Cade, Josh Giddey, Evan Mobley, Scottie Barnes, Jonathan Kuminga.
  • “These guys are growing up right in front of us.” (Dave DuFour, 20:37)
• Teased: Full 2021 redraft coming soon.

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6. Under-the-Radar Numbers & Trends

a. Denver Nuggets’ Cam Johnson Struggles

• [25:50] Despite Denver’s hot start (7–2, #3 offense, #2 defense), summer acquisition Cam Johnson has faltered:
  • 8 PPG, 2 APG, 3 RPG, 37% FG, 23% 3PT
  • “Sometimes it looks like he’s forgotten how to play basketball.” (Ben, 26:52)
  • Theory: Overthinking/pressure to fit in with a contender; Jokic even noted, “He doesn’t want to mess it up.” (Zena K paraphrasing Jokic, 28:29)
  • Contrast: Michael Porter Jr. now thriving statistically on a bad team, while Johnson struggles in a high-stakes role.
  • “Your man likes you even if you take your makeup off at night.” (Zena K, 28:29 — memorable analogy)

b. Phoenix Suns Quietly Over-performing

• [30:38] Thought to be tanking, but Suns are 5–5, have beaten the Clippers twice, and own a top-10 halfcourt defense.
  • “They are genuinely locking in and locking down folks…Team USA version of defensive Devin Booker.” (Zena K, 31:01)
  • “The secret is Team Canada…this is the Dylan Brooks bump.” (Ben, 32:11)
  • Dylan Brooks, Grayson Allen, Royce O’Neale all credited with hustle/defensive intensity.
  • “Everybody raves about how good a teammate he [Dylan Brooks] is…he provides a baseline for you on defense.” (Dave DuFour, 32:40)

c. Clippers Struggling

• [33:33] After being billed as a contender, Clippers are off to a miserable start (3–6, four straight losses, bottom-tier defense and turnovers).
  • “They can’t defend anybody in transition right now…How do you solve an issue that is very, very rooted in your personnel?” (Dave DuFour, 34:53)
  • Zubac regression; entire defense late, sloppy, lacking last year’s Van Gundy identity.
  • “Now I’m asking, Jeff Van Gundy, how do you get that identity back?” (Zena K, 35:29)
  • “In the Western Conference, it gets late early.” (Ben, 35:59) — warning on how a poor start can doom a season.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “Jalen Duren was kind of like this project that now looks more like a pillar for Detroit.”
  – Zena Keita, [06:07]
• “Sometimes when you’re the hot girl at the club and you bag the baddest guy there, you feel like you gotta make sure your hair is extra done…that’s what’s happening [to Cam Johnson in Denver].”
  – Zena Keita, [28:29]
• “Tyrese…has taken this burden and completely made lemonade.”
  – Zena Keita, [11:48]
• “No team has ever been upset that it had too many ball handlers. When you get to the playoffs, this is the sort of reason why.”
  – Ben, [15:50]
• “I just think it’s like a great case of a good player being on a bad team and getting tons of opportunity and usage…”
  – Dave DuFour, [29:32]
• “They are mini Rockets…beating teams with their athleticism.”
  – Zena Keita, [05:24]
• “Everybody raves about how good a teammate he [Dylan Brooks] is…he provides a baseline for you on defense.”
  – Dave DuFour, [32:40]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:00 – 08:50] Pistons deep dive: Duren+Cade, potential trade targets, future outlook
• [09:57 – 12:03] Tyrese Maxey as “new Iverson” and MVP talk
• [12:13 – 15:50] Wembanyama’s slump and importance of elite guard play
• [15:52 – 20:00] Rockets cooking with Durant & Sengun, surprising team chemistry
• [20:00 – 20:46] 2021 draft class breakout check-in
• [25:50 – 30:16] Nuggets’ Cam Johnson experiment, MPJ comparison
• [30:16 – 33:33] Suns and Dylan Brooks effect (+ defensive motif)
• [33:33 – 35:59] Clippers’ woes, transition defense, identity loss

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Tone & Style

The episode is high-energy and conversational, filled with inside jokes, candid analysis, and playful analogies. The hosts balance statistical deep dives with accessible, engaging storytelling—often mixing pop culture or personal references.

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Summary Takeaways

• Pistons are surging—if they add a versatile frontcourt star, they may contend now; Duren and Cade look like franchise centerpieces.
• Tyrese Maxey is shouldering an Iverson-esque load—and thriving—under Nick Nurse, drawing serious All-NBA attention.
• Wemby’s ups and downs are directly tied to the caliber of guard play around him, proof that great bigs are tethered to the guard ecosystem.
• Rockets’ offense is thriving without a traditional PG, as Durant-Sengun become a unique, hybrid engine.
• 2021 draft is rapidly blossoming; expect more content soon.
• Denver and Cam Johnson: A smart player misfiring under expectations, with contrasts to MPJ's freedom on a bad team.
• Phoenix Suns: Playing cohesive defense despite tanking expectations, with Brooks and others injecting needed attitude.
• Clippers: A supposed contender already verging on crisis with defense, turnovers, and identity issues.

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For new listeners or those short on time, this breakdown captures the meat of each discussion and preserves the witty, sharp banter that defines The Athletic NBA Daily’s style.

Transcript

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[Zena K]

And.

[Ben]

And s. My biggest takeaway from watching this game is that the Pistons might be, like, one dude away from being the best team in the East. Kate Cunningham and Jalen Duran in year four and three, respectively, both seem like they're dudes. Like, they. I mean, Cade, we've talked about quite a bit here, but what Jalen Duran is doing here the last. Especially the last four or five games. Very interesting.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah. So over the last five games, Jalen Duran is averaging 24 points, 13 rebounds, two assists, and a block, and he's doing it on 70% true shooting. 70%. That's just absurd by anybody's standards, but it's just because he is catching and finishing everything. He and Cade were the best alley oop duo of the league last season.

[Zena K]

They.

[Dave Defore]

They have built on that this year. Their chemistry is potent. It's one of the most unstoppable plays in basketball. And they, like you said, they just look like they've taken another step in their careers. On top of the fact that the Pistons have surrounded them with a really good defensive team. Isaiah Stewart is. Is injured right now, but when he gets back, he was one of the best rim protectors in the league to start this season.

[Ben]

And shooting over 50% above the break.

[Zena K]

3 is deadly when Isaiah Stewart is popular.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, they've been awesome. So I agree with you. They are one player away. How do you find that one player? Now, given the. The gap in the Eastern Conference? There's an opening here, you know?

[Ben]

All right, Zeno, look, we. We kicked around the idea, like, there's not really a guy that just springs to mind that that necessarily fits. But, like, you know, there's a prototype. If they could find, like, if Jaren Jackson somehow was made, you see where.

[Dave Defore]

That fit is perfect.

[Ben]

Yeah, but when you, like when you watch. When you watch this Piston seam, though, Zena, like, you see it, like, they've got the athleticism. It's a little bit like the Rockets.

[Zena K]

They. They are mini rockets, and the Thing about it is, I think we thought this last year about Detroit in the way that one. They played defense, the. How athletic they were. I mean, sure, Asar Thompson. Amen Thompson. That might have also jogged our memories a little bit in terms of that connection. But there is, there is something to be said about just how Detroit is beating teams with their athleticism. And they also got some buckets especially, you know, obviously, Kate Cunningham. For me, it's interesting. As soon as you said, do they need a dude? I kind of look at. Like last year we looked at the Detroit Pistons as this project that was really exciting that it was doing better than we thought it would like. It would.

[Ben]

Right.

[Zena K]

At this point, the most, especially with the absences of a Jaden Ivy. Like, you were like, ah, K just needs a little bit more around him. But like, Asara's come. You know, he's on his way. Like, we're seeing some stuff. Okay. Tobias Harris is here. Tim Hardaway is here. Like, we're, we're seeing the, the picture here, but for me, it's Jalen. Jalen Duran was kind of like this, this project that now looks more like a pillar for Detroit. Like, he is imposing himself in whether it's, you know, blocking shots, put a seal on the rim. He is rolling with authority at the basket. He's so big, it just block an enforcer, a screener. Like, I really. I. I don't know. I don't. I definitely think that they need a shooting big that isn't a catch and shoot big. Like Isaiah Stewart is. Right. Someone that can create. Like, I love the Jiren Jackson approach there too.

[Ben]

SS is itching right now. He's itching, right? I can see he wants to say Lowry Markin so bad.

[Dave Defore]

Yes.

[Zena K]

Yeah, I get it though.

[Dave Defore]

Like, makes sense, though.

[Zena K]

Yeah, it does make sense some.

[Dave Defore]

I also wanted to call Jaylen Duran baby Dwight. That's.

[Ben]

That's the other thing I was watching the shoulders.

[Zena K]

Right.

[Ben]

That's.

[Zena K]

I mean, it. There's something to me. No, I mean, they're basketball players. Yes. They're tall, they're long, they're muscular.

[Dave Defore]

But he's.

[Zena K]

There's also like, he is a proper, like, big with the, the definition in his arms and his size and you. You can see how it absolutely impacts his power out on the floor in the paint. But yeah, I know as. I love this idea of putting him alongside a shooting big, but also someone that can create. So like Jaren Jackson, like the Evan Mobley type prototype, that, that definitely makes sense. But either way, they're on their way. It's. It's fun watching the Pistons.

[Dave Defore]

Can I just. I'll throw out something else also, just, just for the fun here. Jalen Duran also is like 22 in a week. He's still so young.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's insane.

[Dave Defore]

And that is the part that makes you excited. Like Ron Holland is still so young. Cade is still under 25, if I remember correctly. You know, obviously all these players for the Pistons are still so young and figuring this thing out. So the fact that they're like you said, Xena, exceeding these expectations, maybe you do go for it, right? Maybe you do go find that guy. Like the Pacers did it with Pascal Siakam. It doesn't have to be this huge.

[Ben]

Superstar level player, Pascal Siakam to this team.

[Dave Defore]

Right.

[Ben]

He would be awesome. That's what I mean. Like it doesn't take much. I mean, I, I've been kicking it. The idea that, wow, what if they had gotten Kevin Durant somehow? You know what I mean?

[Dave Defore]

Right.

[Ben]

That's a high level version of that. But, but Pascal Siakam and all NBA level player added to this team and all of a sudden I think this is like a real finals contender anyway. Great. They are, they are so much fun to watch. This game was so much fun. Tyrese Maxey has been ridiculous. He put up 33 in the loss. He's playing a lot. He's playing big minutes as he's averaging what, 41 minutes a game.

[Dave Defore]

41 minutes a game. It's the most any player is average for a very long time, I think like 10 plus years basically since a player has averaged 40 or more minutes a game. So Nick Nurse knows who his guy is and he is leaning on that. Nick Nurse, famously a guy who likes to play his guys heavy minutes.

[Ben]

So I'm not going to either way than anybody else on this. I. I think it's a good thing. Can he play four, right? Like, look, Jalen Brunson played a lot of minutes last year and we gave him nothing but credit. Tyrese Maxey can handle that workload, it seems like. I mean, he's scoring like crazy. Zena. He doesn't look tired at the end of games ever.

[Zena K]

No question for you guys. Did you guys see. I believe it was Clark is the account on X. Did you guys see that comparison season comparison between Tyrese Maxey and Allen Iverson?

[Dave Defore]

And Allen Iverson? Yes, I did.

[Ben]

Yeah. Don't do this to me.

[Zena K]

All right, Dave, let me break it.

[Dave Defore]

Down for you and the court and the Jersey is not helping right now because they've got the same Allen Iverson court.

[Zena K]

The wood on the interior of the three. Yes. Yes. Yes. Great call out. S. Great call out. Yes. Between the two. This is the 2000, 2001 season for Allen Iverson versus this season for Tyrese Maxey. Allen Iverson at 42 minutes. Tyrese Maxey just under at 41. 33 points. 33 and a half points per game for Tyrese Maxi. Allen Iverson 31.1. Maxi doing it from a 47. Almost 48% from the field. Allen Iverson was at 42.

[Dave Defore]

Yep.

[Zena K]

From the three point line. Maxi just under 48% from the three. Allen Iverson down at 32. Then this is where it gets really interesting. Rebounding guards. Tyrus Maxey is averaging five rebounds a game. Allen Iverson was just under four and he's having eight and a half assists. Maxius versus just 4.6 for Iverson. Now the only thing that Iverson was actually was the steals per game. Yeah, he had two and a half versus just the one from Tyrese. But I'm going to tell you right now, Tyrese getting the minutes that you're talking about Nick Nurse putting him in. Right. Putting the burden on his shoulders to carry this team while we're trying to figure out the minutes and the. The. The, you know, the game of Joel Embiid coming back into this mix, waiting on Paul George like he's taken this burden and completely made lemonade like he.

[Dave Defore]

Is MVP champion right now. That's.

[Ben]

That's how good he is. He's been amazing. I will say this though. He's not passing the ball to Eric Snow and Aaron McKee. All right. That so, you know, I will.

[Dave Defore]

Samuel Dalemberg can finish.

[Ben]

Yeah. This is. Yeah, yeah. He's got better shooters around him. Let's just say that AI was more like a boxer, more like Jalen Brunson than Tyrese Maxey. As far as the player, that's actually true. Okay. Hey, dear. And Fox, guys, he's back just in time for the Spurs. We watched Victor. Victor women Yama have probably the worst game of his career. And then a rough game to. To follow that. So two back to back rough games and then he bounced back when de' Aaron Fox was out there. Makes a lot of sense to me. Dylan Harper, you know, was out for those games that. That Wemby struggled with and. And s. Like guards matter so much in the NBA. Like we've been saying this a lot. Like when we talk about the Mavericks, when we Talk about the few times the Rockets have struggled. Guards matter a lot, but especially, it seems like, for Wimy, because instantly teams are able to just double him. Like, they're doubling on the pass when there's only one creator out there with him. But you add that second guy, and all of a sudden it puts him in a blender. Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

There were a few possessions against the Pelicans where they would run a pick and roll with Fox and Wemby, and then it would create a wide open shot for, like, Harrison Barnes or Devin Vassell, and it's just because you're weaponizing the rolling gravity of Wemby, who is always going to get that attention, and then the downhill gravity of a de' Aaron Fox. To your point about Harper, like, they've. They've kind of missed that punch of someone else getting a paint touch other than Wemby. And I think that's why Fox is so important. He also looks great against the Pelicans. Admittedly, not a. Not a great team to kind of like, measure perfect team to come back against. It's a good.

[Ben]

Come on. Or, excuse me, Jordan Poole guarding me. Come on. Please sign me up for that. Although CJ would be maybe better this year if you've seen him, but, yeah, please sign me up for that. I like Xena. I feel like the three of us could get a bucket against the Pelicans defense right now.

[Zena K]

Oh, now, listen, not too much on New Orleans. Okay. I just. I'm just gonna wait until I see the warriors play them. Okay. But I. I really. I love the fact as that you're talking about the paint touches, because what we've seen, I think, in these last few games with Wemby not playing as well as we saw him start the season, it started looking a little bit experimental. Their offense, there wasn't intentionality in terms of, like, trying to get into the paint outside of Dylan Harper. Really, that was really, like, doing it consistently.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Zena K]

And Wemby, obviously, and Wemby, and particularly thinking about the guards. Right. And so when you have those guards doing that, you get better spacing, you get clear reads. Like there's less force ambiguity to, like, what's going on. Ambiguity. There's less force shots, less grenades being taken overall. But it just felt like Wemby got a little bit more co. Like, just coherent touches in their offense, and it kind of put him right back into, like, that structural aspect of what he needed while still playing fast. And I did love to see that, you know, de' Aaron Fox wasn't playing too fast, sometimes you think you gotta come back and do too much and go back to immediately becoming a de' Aaron Fox. That's like, you know, swiper up this floor. But like you didn't need to do that. Like you are good to go with just organizing the offense and pushing the pace. And that was just, that was good to see.

[Ben]

It helps that all three of these guards, Stefan Castle, de' Aaron Fox and Dylan Harper, they're three level guys. They, they, they shoot three pointers at volume. They can hit the mid range and they can get to the basket. I mean, again, the spurs are set up and I know we've all kind of kicked out. Oh, they could move Fox. They could move Fox. No team has ever been upset that it had too many ball handlers. When you get to the playoffs, this is the sort of reason why there's.

[Zena K]

Some teams desperate right now for some.

[Ben]

No joke. Hey, you know who's not surprisingly desperate for a point guard? Houston Rockets. Okay, we're all eating a little bit of crow right now because they look good. Now, is it sustainable to snag 40% of your own misses and hit 43% of threes S? I mean, listen, well, look at 7%.

[Dave Defore]

Last year, you know, like it's almost there.

[Ben]

You know, they grabbed 20 offensive rebounds against the Bucks. They shot 38 and a half percent from three and they won the game. And that is a recipe for success. You, if you can get extra shots and they hit so many of these kick out open looks off the offensive rebounds that they don't actually shoot that many threes because they're just shooting at such a high percentage. They get such great looks and you know, this is a pretty good win for them. Reed shepherd looked good off the bench, but Kevin Durant and Alperin Shangoon are absolutely cooking right now. The chemistry's off the charts. S the Rockets look better than I expected at this point in the season.

[Dave Defore]

They have an unstoppable play and it's a really simple play. It's Kevin Durant running a pick and roll with Alper and Shangun and it's so hard to guard because if you switch that action, Kevin Durant is just going to feast against whoever it is. And if you don't feast, if you don't switch that action, then it's two to the ball and Kevin Durant is seven feet tall so he can make the pass to Sengun and then Sengun is on a four on three situation, right? He's making plays. He this is where he lives offensively. And so that's why they have an unstoppable play. They find Shangun at that point, can find cutters in an amendment Thompson or a shooter in Jabari Smith Jr. Or Reed shepherd, like you mentioned, who's done a really good job of, like, relocating out to openings in the perimeter. So, look, they. They look good offensively. And Dave, I hear you that the offensive rebounding is a big part of it. It absolutely is. But at the same time, if this machine is working without a point guard, you might not need one. You know, and it's funny because we just spent five minutes talking about how you need point guards. You need the guards. Need the guards.

[Ben]

Yeah, but they didn't have Kevin Durant. Yeah, they didn't have Albert Zena. Look, if you've got a big. That can handle the way that Shingoon. Do you guys see him Cook, Giannis?

[Zena K]

Yes.

[Ben]

Yeah, you got a big that can handle like that in space. You've got a guy who can move and. And can run this.

[Advertiser/Host]

The.

[Ben]

The pick and roll with Kevin Durant, like, as the ball handler. Come on. That's a cheat code. That's tough.

[Zena K]

Yeah, that's so tough. Defenses are in. It's just such a conundrum. Like, you're literally looking at your coach like, what the. What do you want me to do? Hands up, like, shoulder shrug. When you've got to contend with the two of them coming off and you're seeing them really play this so well, whether it's the pick and pop you're seeing, even Alper and Changun with the short roll reads like, this is what he's done. But now the other person involved in that isn't a Fred Van Vliet, it's Kevin Durant. Like, the. What I love most about their offense is that you're seeing their identity because they don't have a point guard come around. Basically, Shangoon and his patience and his touch and him deciding what he wants to do, whether he wants to take his defender one on one, whether he wants to back them down, take them, you know, straight on. And then they're also having Kevin Durant just kind of around just in case he needs a release valve or they need a late game close, you know, a late game or late shot clock finisher. They've got a Kevin Durant available to them. When you have those two things available to you, you don't have to do too much. And that's the thing. Like the Houston Rockets, despite not having a guard, they feel tremendously in control of all of their games. That's why it shocks me. They're putting up, you know, crazy numbers. Their top five, or I believe top 10 in offensive rating, but they're in the bottom three in terms of pace. They ain't got to. They don't got to speed up. They don't have to do anything. No one's forcing them to speed up. You've got Shangun just taking his time getting past people like Giannis when he wants to. It's kind of crazy.

[Ben]

I mean. Yeah.

[Dave Defore]

Can I, can I just say something real quick? We just spent the last 20 minutes talking about two players in Sengun and Cade Cunningham from the same draft class. 2021 draft class. And honestly, if you go and look at the 2021 class, all of these guys right now are figuring it out, are playing consistent basketball all the time and playing it at a high level. Josh Giddey is in that conversation. Evan Mobley is in that conversation. Scotty Barnes is in that conversation. There's, oh, man. Jonathan Kaminga, who is also figuring things out in a major way. These guys are like growing up right.

[Ben]

In front of us. So what you're telling me is Austin.

[Dave Defore]

Reaves, I believe, is in this class.

[Ben]

He went undrafted.

[Zena K]

He's undrafted, but he's still that year. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

So we're going to do a 2021 redraft here in the next couple of weeks, guys. Just look out for that content coming your way. Speaking of, we're going to take a quick break. Coming up after the break, we're going to talk about some under the radar things that have happened at the start of the season. Cam Johnson, not great.

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[Ben]

All right, guys, it's we, we watch a lot of basketball. We try to catch everything, but there's stuff that's surprising even to us because you just, there's too much stuff happening. I mean, we even felt like it was a slow weekend and we just spent, I don't know, 10 minutes talking about Jalen Duran's shoulders. So here's a few things that have been under the radar. You might have missed this because look, team like the Denver Nuggets, they've gotten off to a really nice start and they had high expectations, but they're seven and two. This is the number three offense in the N B A. The number two defense, which is shocking. And Nicola Jokic is averaging 25 points, 13 rebounds and 12 assists a game lost in that. Guys, their big addition this summer replacing Michael Porter Jr. Who was supposed to be the weak link in their starting lineup. Cam Johnson, not a good start to his Nuggets tenure. He's averaging eight points, two assists, three rebounds, shooting 37% from the field, 23% from three. And he's open guys. When I watch him out there sometimes it looks like he's forgotten how to play basketball. And it is weird because we know him as a guy who's been in the right spots his whole career. Smart player, makes shots. He is having a real hard time fitting in. The Nuggets are better with him off the court.

[Dave Defore]

Yeah, that's wild.

[Zena K]

I really think that this has come. It comes down to there was a lot of pressure on this trade. There was, there was so much like courting of Cam Johnson. So many people were interested in having a Cam Johnson join girl at the club, right? And sometimes when you're the hot girl at the club and you bag the baddest guy there, you feel like you got to make sure your hair is extra done every, you know, every time you go out, make sure your nails are done. You're going to bed with makeup on maybe, right? You're doing too much and you could tell that that's what's happening there. Even Jokic talked about it. Like he, I believe the quote was, he doesn't want to mess it up. And that's what you see. And that happens with players come to teams that clearly have something good going and they want to contribute in that way as well. They want to be positively added into the situation. He's. He's smart. He's figuring it out. He's assessing things right now. But it, it is going to take him a little bit more time to realize that. Guess what? Your man likes you. Even if you take your makeup off at night.

[Ben]

But never happened to do, you know who would never find himself in a position where he overthought it and he just thought too much and tried too hard.

[Dave Defore]

Oh, I know who you.

[Ben]

Michael Porter Jr. Michael Porter Jr. Would never. Maybe, maybe Michael Porter Jr. Was like hot and not smart enough to realize how important he was to the team.

[Dave Defore]

Now Maybe Michael Porter Jr. Should overthink some things though.

[Ben]

You know, shot selection, especially off the court, continue. But Michael Porter Jr. To like to contrast this, Michael Porter Jr. Is averaging 23 points a game, eight rebounds, three assists, which Michael Porter Jr. Doesn't really pass. I don't know where this is coming from.

[Dave Defore]

It's coming from the nets being bad, man. I, you know, I, I'm not standing for this.

[Ben]

We're still making shots, though.

[Dave Defore]

He is making shots. He is making shots.

[Ben]

Yeah, I.

[Dave Defore]

Look, I just think it's like great case of a good player being on a bad team and getting tons of opportunity and tons of usage and tons of responsibility, etc. On the other side, Cam, to your point, Xena is adjusting from being on a bad team that he got tons of freedom to figure out whatever he wanted to to. Now you play in this.

[Ben]

No expectations.

[Dave Defore]

There were no expectations. And now you play in the system where we need to win a championship this year because we have Nikola Jokic on our on team and this is the world you now live in. I think there's a different set of expectations. There's also a different set of, I don't know Freedom to be able to do whatever you want to do on the court, which is why Cam is struggling right now.

[Ben]

Guys, little under the radar. We had no expectations for the Phoenix Suns.

[Dave Defore]

No, not at all.

[Ben]

Team owner Matt is came out and said we're not judging the season on wins and losses. Right. We were coming up with a new metric for how well a team was going to do that did not include wins and losses. Well, GU what? They are 5 and 5 to start the season, which none of us expected. They beat the Clippers two times in a row, which Law Murray told us before the season started that the Clippers were the third best team in the West. They just beat him twice in a row. They've got a top 10 half court defense and I'm not sure how with the personnel that they've got. The Suns are fun. That's a good, fun story to start the year. Flying under the radar, guys.

[Zena K]

I know how they have structure to their defense. Like I feel like before there was just a lot of athleticism happening. Right. When you think about Oso Iguidaro and Ryan Dunn last year, like those were like the rookies that we were so excited about because they were just super athletic and it was just like throw them on whoever and they're gonna go figure it out. Like this year there is like intentionality around Devin Booker harassing a ball handler and being able to have the switches and there's communication. They're not over helping. There's true discipline in their defense, especially in transition. Remember that was a problem for them last year. Like they are this year. They're not trying to just like outrun everybody because they're super athletic. They are genuinely locking in and locking down folks. And it's fun. That's why. How many people were learning how to guard Wemby because of who? The Phoenix Suns. You know what I mean? Like they, they execute their defense and it's, it's allowing that to, you know, fuel their offense as well. It's fun. I like seeing Devin Booker, Team USA version of defense of Devin Booker while he's also killing it on offense.

[Ben]

Okay, you, you mentioned Team usa, but what if I'm telling you the secret is Team Canada. This is the Dylan Brooks bump. He does this everywhere. He does this everywhere. It's a little bit like Russell Westbrook. Like you hear these stories. He comes in, it is a different mindset. Everybody plays a little harder. They've got a chip on their shoulder and yes, he's going to do some wild or dumb or whatever. However you want to color the things. But he has a thing as like, he makes things happen.

[Dave Defore]

He is one of the best teammates from basically anybody I've talked to about Dylan Brooks. Like, everybody raves about how good of a teammate he is. On top of the fact that he provides a baseline for you on defense. You think about what he brought to the Houston Rockets alongside Fred Van Vliet. They immediately catapulted up those defensive ratings. I would imagine the Suns will do something similar. Just because he is going to guard every single night and he does not care about who's on the other side of the floor, he's going to pick up, he's going to add that intensity. You look at the sun starting lineup, they have one of the best defensive ratings among teams that so far, at least so far. This seating, they have one of the best defensive ratings. A lot of that is because of Dylan.

[Zena K]

He's gonna play Mark Williams. Let's. Let's give.

[Dave Defore]

Grayson Allen and Royce o' Neill, all those guys, to your point. Xena play really good.

[Ben]

Connect Dylan Brooks, he's gonna play. He's gonna play hard. And if he doesn't play, he's gonna wear some awful clothes. Guys under the radar because I don't feel like people were watching the Clippers, man, they stink. They are not good right now. Again, Law Murray told us they were gonna be the third best so far. They're three and six. Let me run down the numbers. They've lost four straight. They lost to the Suns twice in a row, which is hard to do. They lost to the Thunder, they lost to the Heat. Kawhi was out for a couple games. They missed James Harden, but they've got other guys. 29th in transition defense, 29th in overall defense, 18th and half court defense, 29th in turnovers. Evita Zubach, coming off a career year last year where I test and numbers wise, he looked like he was at his peak. Has not been the. He has not been able to hold that defense up. It has been a very bad start for the Clippers.

[Dave Defore]

I'm curious to see how they try and figure this out because it does feel a little bit. A little bit like a personnel issue because the ball handling that they tried to inject and Law has talked to us about this. He talked to me and David on Thursday about this.

[Ben]

He called the Suns, giving him trouble. He did, he did.

[Dave Defore]

And I think a part of that was one respecting the Sun's defense, but also worried about how Bradley Beal, how James Harden, how Chris Paul, all those Guys will be able to figure out the ball handling responsibilities, make this team viable offensively, because otherwise they're turning the ball over and it's getting them out in transition and they can't defend anybody in transition right now. And so that's like, how do you solve that? How, if you're Ty Lue, who in my opinion is one of the best coaches in the NBA, how do you solve an issue that is very, very rooted in your personnel? You know, when you.

[Zena K]

Last year we literally spent so much time praising Jeff Van Gundy for transforming this defense. And this year it feels like everything feels late for them. And that translates into where they stand in transition. Defense, defense in general. And then you match that with they're not defending and they're not valuing possessions. Being 29th in turnovers like that. Now I'm asking like Jeff Van Gundy, how do you get that identity? Which is what you're saying as like, how do you get that identity back?

[Ben]

100. He's gonna have to get his money back for all those T shirts that they bought in preseason. That's what I. That's what I'm thinking. So we're gonna be watching the Clippers because again, it gets late, early. The Western Conference especially. It's just hard to win a bunch of games in a row. And if you get a bad start, I mean, it's hard to get out of the cellar. That's gonna do it for the show, folks. We've got some special stuff coming up this week. The Athletic is gonna Release the top 25 players of the century. We're super excited about that. We're gonna get a special episode about that. We'll be probably be talking about that for the next week or so because I think that people are gonna be debating especially that takes. Yeah, there's gonna be some big time takes there. And especially I'm the only person that voted Steph Curry number one because I'm not a coward. But anyway, that's gonna do it for the show, folks. Thank you guys for listening. For Xena, Keda and Esperahenny, I'm Dave Defore and this is Ben, the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us.

[Zena K]

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[Zena K]

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