Dave Dufour (2:43)

Why. Why isn't Phoenix a bigger free agent destination? I mean, Bradley Beal definitely wanted to be there. Right. Like, I mean, makes sense to me. You would think that with the proximity to Vegas and L. A, that would be a pretty high ticket.

Doug Holler (2:57)

Yeah. You know, I've asked around, I've talked to people, and it is still maybe not to the extent that it once was, back during the d' Antoni days when Steve Nash was, you know, running things. Everybody wanted to come here, come to Phoenix, live the good life, have Scottsdale. And by the way, your numbers are going to jump because of Steve Nash. It's not quite the same way anymore, I don't think, but I still think it's a popular destination for free agents. Know, if you have the money to bring them in.

Dave Dufour (3:24)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, this was a summer of change for the Suns, and I think probably needed. When you go 30 and 56 and you've got Kevin Durant on. Excuse me, 30. 30 and 56. 36 and 46, and you've got Kevin Durant on the roster, that is a bad sign. What do you think the. The most impactful change is going to be from last year to this one? I mean, obviously the absence of. Of Kevin Durant, but what do you think about the pieces that they added?

Doug Holler (3:55)

Yeah, and obviously that's been a big topic. Did they get. Did they cash in enough? Did they bring. Get back what they needed to get back for Kevin Durant? You know, the Bradley Beal situation is completely different. I think they did fairly well in the Kevin Durant trade. You know, given his age, the fact that everyone in the league knew the Suns had to move him. The biggest thing for me is they had no choice. They had to reset. So the, the most interesting thing is the branding, the messaging that we're. That we're hearing from the Suns. You know, for the last couple years, it's been all about championships. You know, not even championship championship with an S, plural now. It's more. It's. It's been a pretty significant shift. It's. We're going to put a team out there that you can be proud of. We're gonna hustle, we're gonna play with grit. We're gonna play together, we're gonna defend. And, you know, I think it's.

Dave Dufour (4:52)

We're not measuring success in wins and losses, Doug.

Doug Holler (4:54)

Not anymore. We're not. Not anymore. So I'm really interested, if you ask me, what am I most interested about with this team? It's how long does that play out? I think the first couple of weeks, based on what fans saw last year, they're going to, they're going to like seeing Dylan Brooks get into people and they're going to like to see Ryan Dunn get on the floor for loose balls. How long does that take you though? I mean, if you're, if you're eight games under.500 at Christmas, does that still carry a fan base through the season? I don't. I don'. Know the answer to that. That's what I'm most interested to find out.

Dave Dufour (5:25)

I think Dylan Brooks is actually the biggest addition for this team and I think if they had had Dylan Brooks last year, there's no way they missed the playoffs. I think a player like that, as much as we make fun of, you know, some of his antics and, and he certainly does can seem like he annoys opposing players, but he plays a lot. He shoots when he's open. He actually not a bad shooter. He has, you know, he's streaky here and there, but the, the grittiness that he plays with. There's a little bit of like, he's an. And sometimes teams need an. Like he's a, he's a guy that if Cleveland had him, they don't fall apart in the playoffs last year. I think that having that kind of guy on your team makes a big difference. I mean, we look at the change in attitude of the Rockets. I mean a lot of that's Eme Odoka, but there's a reason why they wanted Dylan Brooks out there. Memphis has missed him since he left. I, I think that, that, you know, Jaylen Green's going to get a lot of, of press and you're probably going to write a bunch of stories about him. He's going to have a 40 point game at some point this season, but Dylan Brooks is going to be the guy that makes or breaks their year, in my opinion, you know.

Doug Holler (6:29)

No, yeah, no question. And there's two things to that. One, Phoenix hasn't had many guys like that Jay Crowder to some extent. I mean you could go all the way back to Raja Bell, but for the most part someone who really is just an agitator who irritates. They haven't really had that guy. And when they, when they traded for him, I reached out to. It was six or seven former NBA assistant coaches who have had Dylan on their staff or on their teams. It was overwhelming. All seven of them said, you're going to love this guy. Phoenix is going to love this guy. Because what people don't see, all they see are the antics. That's, that's what is on pops up on social media and highlights. What they don't see is a guy that lists the level of competition at practice. A guy who comes in hours the day before a game and studies tendencies of the guy he's going to guard. And, and you know, Jordan Ott, their, their first year head coach has already talked about that. Just how, you know, Dylan has at practice, he brings it edge, you know, even just when they're just, you know, running five on five, that it's already kind of becoming contagious and kind of setting the tone.

Dave Dufour (7:34)

Who do you think on this team is ready to take a leap? It's actually a surprisingly young team. You know, when you think about what the last few seasons have looked like, I mean, it's Devin Booker. He. He's got, I know he's been in the league 10 years. Is he the oldest guy on the team? I don't know that off the top of my head, but he'.

Doug Holler (7:51)

Oldest. Royce o' Neal is the oldest.

Dave Dufour (7:53)

Okay, Royce is. Royce o' Neal is old.

Doug Holler (7:55)

You're not mistaken. Devin has the most experience. I mean, he joined the league when he was 18. So Devin, you know, he's, he's the guy that has been around and, you know, and I just wrote something about how for the first time, you know, he's the undisputed leader of the team. You know, if you look at their successful years, it was Chris Paul, you know, the last couple years, they really didn't have one. So he, he needs to raise his voice and take charge more. And, you know, Devin's going to go out and get his 25 to 26 points per game. He's going to average six or seven assists. But, you know, it was interesting last year. Some things that, that some of us noticed here in town is, you know, when he was out there with Kevin Durant, Bradley Beal, he did his thing. But when Devin played with the second team, he was more the Devin Booker that we saw during the 2021 Finals run. The aggressive, like, you know, going on there, he's always been, he's confident, but he just like, he just played with a different energy, a different attitude with the reserves than he did with Kevin. It was almost like he was too respectful of Kevin Durant at time.

Dave Dufour (8:54)

Too deferential.

Doug Holler (8:55)

Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. So I think that's really, you know, I want to see how he handles this. I want to see how he you know, I'm still like, everybody. I'm still not sure, like, how does a backcourt work with Jaylen Green, two guards who work best with the ball in their hands? You know, Jalen's kind of a downhill guy where Devin is a little bit more versatile. But how does that work? I don't know. I don't know if they know, but that's something I really want to see. And just how Devin responds to having this be his team and being. Being back, going back to being the underdog again.

Dave Dufour (9:24)

You have any inclination on. On head coach Jordan Ott and the offense that he wants to get into? I mean, I know, you know, look, we've seen a little bit of preseason here so far, but I don't know that we can take anything away. But from talking to him or from asking around, like, looking into him, like, what are your expectations from him as a coach?

Doug Holler (9:43)

He's an interesting guy. Like I did with Dylan when, When Jordan got the job, I. I went back. He comes from a small town in Pennsylvania. Just a couple thousand people. Kind of a cliche, but a town where everyone knows each other. Not everybody, but most of the people I talked to said the Suns are going to be better this year than they were last year. Then they didn't. They didn't, like, say what that meant. They didn't say, but they would say they're going to be better because of Jordan. Somebody told me, they said, when Jordan walks into the room, you're not going to notice him right away. He doesn't have the booming voice, the booming presence where you're going to go like, oh, look, you know, Bob Knight just walked into the room. Nothing like that. But if you make your way around the room and talk to him, by the time you leave, you're going to figure out that he's the smartest guy who arrived. He's the smartest guy here. And I definitely see that there was a. When the rookies were announced, common mileage watcher Fleming. You know, afterwards, everybody's just kind of lingering. They had, like, a camp for kids, and, you know, I'm just standing there watching the camp a little bit, and it took me a while to realize Jordan Knott was standing right next to me. If you go to practice, at the end of practice, they let us in for, like, the final 15 minutes. You know, you scan the court, you always look to see, is Devin Booker here? Where's he at? You stand. You scan the core. You're, you're, you're. Your gaze, your attention. Doesn't stop on Jordan. It goes right over him like. Whereas with Mike Gutenholtz, you're like, oh, there's Bud. You go, you don't notice him because he just doesn't have that presence. But you can tell he's very analytical minded. He's very thorough in what he does. From what I can tell, he pretty much lives at the facility. First one there in the morning, last one to leave. And a guy that I think is really probably ready for his first NBA coaching career or to start his head coaching career, what type of offense he's going to run. I, I haven't seen enough to be able to pinpoint that yet. I do have questions about whether, you know, they, you know, at the four, do they have someone who can space the court? I mean, there are certain things like that that I have questions about. So I'm not sure about that. But I do know that he's going to, he's the right guy for what they need right now as far as the style they want to play.

Dave Dufour (11:55)

And then defensively, any, any thoughts there? I mean, it's the NBA, so you can only do so much. Right. Like most teams kind of do similar things, but, you know, again, it's fresh blood.

Doug Holler (12:07)

Yeah. They played one preseason game and I saw more guys get on the floor than I've ever seen over the last couple years. There seem to be more talk, communication. If you go into practice and just see just a little bit, or even I guess I should say the videos that they post to practice, the communication is, is different than what I've seen, which has been something that Devin Booker has always complained about in the past, that they don't communicate much defensively. I mean, they were 27th in the league last year in defensive rating. I think just Dylan Brooks is a good starting point. Ryan Dunn, their second year forward, is really a guy that kind of brings energy on that end and I think has great potential. You know, Dylan Brooks said after one practice that, you know, there's another villain on the team, but no one's, no one's realized yet. He wouldn't tell us who it was, but I think probably Ryan Dunn is a good guess. So they should be better. Not to mention they have better rim protection with Mark Williams with Malawat coming in. So those are two things. A few things that I think they should be better defensively from the get go from than they were last year.

Dave Dufour (13:10)

At least more active. You know, that's my biggest thing when I was watching them last year is just like it Just felt like there were too many possessions where the defense just wouldn't. Wouldn't move, wouldn't move fast enough, couldn't move. You know, there was a myriad of things, and now at least they have some athletes that, you know, and. And hopefully the young guys can get some consistent run. Which, you know, again, this is this team moving into a completely different place than it was last season. And, you know, like Ryan Dunn, you know, the. The inconsistency of his role last year I thought was confusing, baffling because.

Doug Holler (13:45)

Right.

Dave Dufour (13:45)

Like, he has so much talent. So I just think from. From a. At least from just seeing who's on the roster already, we're going to know more in the first month of this season than we found out all of last year. That's my expectation.

Doug Holler (13:58)

Yeah. And then, I mean, last year you looked at it, you had three guys making, you know, $50 million who are basically out there for one reason, to score. You know, Kevin Grant had some decent defensive moments. He's. That. He's been that way for most of his career. Devin is a willing defender, you know, Brad, it depended on his health status. But, you know, for the most part, these weren't guys that were going out there every night with the mindset that I'm going to stop my opponent, you know, and then you had Grayson Allen, you know, it just. It just wasn't a team built to stop people on that end. And, you know, I know, you know, talking to people who have been around, Mike Booneholzer said that's going to be the biggest surprise, is how he gets those guys to buy in defensively. It just. It never happened.

Dave Dufour (14:40)

Yeah. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll be right back to talk about expectations and who might get traded from this team.

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Dave Dufour (17:37)

Okay so this season, as we've kind of laid out, the expectations are being lowered, right? We, we are judging them not as a basketball team, but maybe as a basketball project. What, what are the expectations, you know, that you have going into this season? Then the, the west didn't get any easier. In a lot of ways it might have gotten more difficult. Luca looks like he's going to be an MVP candidate if we're just judging him by his body. So it's not even like your division got easier. You know, what is a good season look like for the Suns?

Doug Holler (18:15)

I, I would think, you know, someone, we went around the room, there was a bunch of us in a room and we went by through and asked for expectations. I, I, I said 40 wins. You know, they were 36 and 46 last year. So I do think there's a chance for them to be better if you, if you walk in, you know, the limited time, I mean the me is not in there. We just get a little bit of time. But when the, when the doors open, we're allowed in there in this preseason, it does, the move does seem lighter. I mean it does seem lighter. You see guys laughing a little bit more. There's a togetherness that doesn't seem like was there last year. And maybe I think that was from the weight of the expectations that was there from day one. And again a lot of that could be pre season. Let's see if that what happens when they lose five or six in a row. Right. But you know, I do think there's a little bit of addition by subtraction here. You know, Brad Beal situation was just, you know, it was constant. Is he available? The questions, you know, the chemistry, all that I think helps everybody out. And I, I do think just the attention to detail on the defensive end should win them a couple more games. So I, I would start, I would say 40 is the ceiling, but that, that would probably be my where I would project at this point.

Dave Dufour (19:30)

Is there any potential to upgrade this roster anywhere? Like do they have anyone on the team that is a good contract that, that they could move and maybe make some upgrades?

Doug Holler (19:41)

Well, I mean when they made their off season moves, they, they traded, you know, for Mark Williams, who I think we haven't talked about him. I think he's the key to their season. And I should have said that when I said 40 wins. You bring in a center who when he's healthy, weighed by 44 games last year, you know, averaged I think a double double close to that. When he's on the court, he's been okay. He's been pretty good. He just hasn't been on the court. I mean if you look over his three years he's played, I think less than 50% of his games because of various injuries. And they're being very deliberate with him. They've kept him out of the preseason game. He hadn't played five on five until recently. If he can play, you know, 60 or 65 games, I think, you know, that Helps them. That helps them. He can be their third best player. So I think that's a big thing. So when they, when they traded for him, when they drafted Common Mile Watch, you know, everyone said, well, Nick Richards, who they traded for last year, would be an obvious trade candidate. I would think that would probably remains the same. I thought Grayson Allen would have been a trade candidate over the off season. But, you know, to be honest, you've heard nothing but praise for, for Grayson Allen from Jordan. I, I mean, everyone, every coach that comes in here seems to love him. Royce o' Neill, maybe. So, you know, those would be the guys that come to mind immediately. But you know, just probably not. They're in a better position financially than they've been obviously the last couple years. So.

Dave Dufour (21:06)

Yeah, I mean, what was it? 408 million last year for 36 win team. Yeah, the math doesn't work on that.

Doug Holler (21:14)

The biggest flop. Yeah. I mean, you can make an argument it's one of the biggest flops in NBA history. I mean, it just, it was, it was so miserable walking into the arena those last couple weeks when they were just fighting for the play in. You could tell their heart wasn't into it. I mean, it just seemed like nobody wanted to be there. Like, let's just get this over with and move on. Kevin knew he was leaving. It was, it was miserable for everyone involved.

Dave Dufour (21:37)

I mean, do you feel like they missed an opportunity not getting him moved at the deadline last year?

Doug Holler (21:42)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, for. Without question. Well, one, they mishandled it. I mean, they did it right. They. They kind of did it without his input and knowledge, which he didn't. He didn't really. He did not like at all. And then afterwards, I mean, people have asked me like, you know, when did it really, you know, just kind of deflate. That's when it was. I mean, they were, they weren't going to do much anyway. And I. But I think they would have made the, at least the play in tournament until the trade deadline. And then after that, Kevin still went out there and did his thing. But you know, his. Kevin's. Kevin. But you. He knew what was going to happen. The team knew what was going to happen. The fact that, you know, they, they tried to, you know, make a trade and bring in Jimmy Butler. That didn't happen after the trade deadline. Things just went south after that.

Dave Dufour (22:28)

Yeah. And then, I mean, you have the Beal saga that works itself out after the season, which was also a distraction all year long. So two distractions gone. New coach New players. And you, you think the ceiling is 40 wins. What's the most realistic season?

Doug Holler (22:47)

Well, I would say probably more mid-30s would be, would be realistic. You know, and you mentioned new. I mean, we're talking about a new front office too, with Brian Gregory, a GM who has spent his entire career, most of his career in college, that's been restructured. You know, so it's not just like minimal change. This has been an organizational shift. You know, Matt Ishbia, the owner, is, said that he wishes he would have done this earlier and, you know, but where the, where the team was, you know, he felt like it was worth taking a shot at Kevin Durant. And, you know, Matt is a guy that's not patient, but Matt is a guy also who, if something's not working, he is willing to hit reset and start over. But now we'll see where the patience comes in again. You know, can, can he let this play out? They sound like they have a lot of draft capital to build that way. So, you know, the improvement is going to have to be development and on the court and maximizing what they have. You know, and that's, that's the interesting part about this team. You know, there's questions about, you know, can Mark Williams stay healthy? Can Devin Booker bring out the best in Jalen Green? Can Ryan Dunn become more than, you know, a defensive guy? Can he be a dependable guy who can hit the three point shot? So those are the things where they're really going to have to make strides to have to reach, you know, 40 wins or even flirt with that play in tournament spots.

Dave Dufour (24:13)

Any concerns about Devin Booker and whether he wants to be there or not? He's been great, I would say, like he is. You've never heard anything that makes it seem like he would put any pressure on him.

Doug Holler (24:29)

I get brush back every time I write that he's one of the more popular players in team history. Fans hit me back on that in the comment sections of stories and all that. He is one of the most or most popular players in franchise history. People love Devin Booker here. He was drafted here when he was 18. He grew up here. He has a hallway in Flagstaff during the off season, so he spends time up there. I was just texting with someone from Flagstaff a couple days ago about, you know, Devin over the off season, invited the entire team up there and I wanted to get some details about what they did while they're up there. And, you know, he said Flagstaff loves Devin, you know, and that's three hours from here. So he has roots here. But you know how it is. Everybody comes. It's the same with, with Dame in Portland. You know, everybody comes to a point where they start thinking about their legacy and, you know, the clock and, you know, Devin's still young. He's not even 30. But you know, they want to win a championship and it'll be interesting to see if they go through this year. If they're, you know, another 35 win season next year, things don't look all that great. When does he realize, like, okay, I might have to go elsewhere to do this. I don't have enough time to build it back to where we need to be competitive at that level.

Dave Dufour (25:45)

I don't know.

Podcast Host (25:46)

I.

Dave Dufour (25:46)

Look, I hope he never does. I hope he stays a son for.

Doug Holler (25:50)

The rest of his career to have guys like that.

Dave Dufour (25:52)

Yeah, we don't get it anymore. And it does matter, you know, I mean, there's more Giannis stuff coming out now as the season's kicking off and you know, I hate it. I hate it. I want to see Devin Booker just stay in Phoenix. Doug Holler, go and read him at the Athletic. He's going to be covering the Suns for us all year long. Thank you so much for popping in and we'll talk to you a bunch this season because I do think while the Suns, I don't expect them to be good, I think that they are going to be much more fun to watch this year than they were last year last year. Just not the easiest team to watch. All right, everybody go and like, like and subscribe. Wherever you watch this on YouTube, you know, give us a rating, five rating and review on itunes, Google overcast, wherever you listen to podcasts. We'll be back later on this week with more team previews. Thanks for listening.

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Nice.

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