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- [00:01]
Podcast Host (Sponsor Read - BetMGM)
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- [01:14]
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- [01:44]
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- [03:15]
Jake King (Host)
Welcome to the Basketball Hundred Podcast, a podcast based on the book written by many of us here at the Athletic. We're here to count down the top 100 players in NBA history and discuss and debate their place in history. I'm your host Jake King and with me today are Eric Karine and Jason Jones of the Athletic. In today's portion of the podcast, we're discussing and debating the 40th to 59th best players in NBA history as rated by us. Just before we get into it, I'll give you the list of all those names. 59. James Worthy 58. Bob McAdoo 57 Anthony Davis 56 Dwight Howard 55. Ray Allen 54. Dominique Wilkins 53. Luka Doncic 52. Kevin McHale 51 Paul Pierce 50. Gary Payton 49. Allen Iverson 48. Reggie Miller 47. Russell Westbrook 46. Clyde Frazier, 45. Willis Reed, 44. Clyde Drexler 43. George Gervin, 42. Elvin Hayes, 41 Joellen Bead and 40. Bob Koozie. I will start with you, Eric. Which player brought you the most joy or excitement when you initially read this list?
- [04:30]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
As somebody who you know, came of age in the late 90s, early 2000s, it was Gary Payton for me. I mean, my most formative Gary Payton memory doesn't even include Gary Payton. I used to have his shoes, the ones with the zipper, and then in a big tournament the zipper broke and I was just, oh, that's. I was, I was legitimately shook.
- [04:55]
Jake King (Host)
The zipper was utterly useless too.
- [04:59]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Real utility went, oh yeah, no utility whatsoever. But it looked awesome. Which is sort of, I was about to say, which is the opposite of Gary Payton, but I understand that that would have meant I was calling him ugly, which I did not mean to do. All I meant to say is Gary Payton had lots of utility. Maybe one of the best defensive guards, if not the best defensive guard of all time. Cool ass. Nickname the Glove. That's an old timer. One of the great trash talkers. You know, tons of stories about him and, you know, Pacific Northwest, Seattle. Uh, I was really into the, the Kemp and Peyton combination in Seattle. I, I really like.
- [05:42]
Jake King (Host)
Was it everybody that was one of the coolest teams ever.
- [05:45]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
I think that was one of the best NBA Jam. NBA Jam combos you could have too. Nobody fact checked to make sure that those two were both licensed for that game. Uh, but they had to be. Yeah, yeah, Gary. Gary Payton was awesome and, you know, one of my favorites growing up.
- [06:03]
Jake King (Host)
How about you, Jason?
- [06:05]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, see, once I remove my LA roots, because my first choice would be James Worthy, but outside of just growing up in la, it's Iverson. I always root for an underdog. I always root for some. The kind of the guy who was different. I was the kid growing up who liked Dennis Rodman just because he was different. And so Iverson, you know, to be.
- [06:27]
Jake King (Host)
To know.
- [06:28]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I know what they listed him at, what, six one or whatever they listed him at, whatever they listed him at. He was not that tall, nor did he weigh that much. And just the way he was able to, you know, be a dominant player at that size, it was just fun. Fun to kind of watch him rebel in so many different ways, whether it be not just, you know, on the court in his style. I mean, I can't imagine for a lot of guys it might have been the most fun to play with, you know, watching, you know, the smallest guy on the court have the ball all the time. But yeah, for me, it was Iverson. I just. Because he was an underdog. And I think he has arguably one of the most memorable finals games ever. That game one in 2001. I mean, if you, if you just went off of the highlights, you'd forget that was the only game they won. But I mean, him. Yeah, I mean, that was Ty Loop. Yeah, that.
- [07:20]
Jake King (Host)
Yeah, that, that five games finals. And Ty Lou left it with like just the low light a life.
- [07:27]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, he. Yeah, he left you. You just swore, you know, and it was crazy about that game was that if you look at it, the Lakers were not doing a bad job on him. I mean, they threw everything at him. They. They basically told Ty Lou to go in there and wrestle him. They threw Kobe at him. They threw everything at him. And the game he put on was just amazing.
- [07:49]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
I grew up in Toronto and you know, I had before that, before the finals that year, the semifinals, Eastern Conference semifinals was Raptors Sixers.
- [07:59]
Jake King (Host)
And that was the series Vince went to his graduation.
- [08:03]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, still in every Raptors documentary produced to this day. But in that series, Vince had one 50 point game and Iverson had two 50 point games. And it was. I think he had 52 and 54. I think it was game two and game five, those games. And then in game seven, they just were sending everything at him and I think he had 60 to fifth with Aaron McKee hitting every shot. I don't know how we've got to Aaron McKee so quickly in this podcast, but just one of the phenomenal top hundred list. Yeah, phenomenal star. I think he won sixth Nat of the year that year. Maybe his top 106th night of the year winners. But yeah, just an iconic player for sure. And that series in particular is something I'll always remember.
- [08:51]
Jake King (Host)
Just the, the raw nature of him. Like you always saw his emotions at every time, whether he was on behind a mic, whether he was on the court. It was just like you could see his internal workings at all times. And I thought that was a really cool thing about Allen Iverson. And they kind of surrounded him with guys that just worked, especially that 2001 year. Everybody else was just like low usage, defensive minded guys that didn't want the ball or didn't typically have the ball a lot on offense. And then Allen Iverson was just there to take every shot. And it worked. Didn't work to beat the Lakers, but it worked to beat the Lakers that one game. And. And one of the most iconic moments in finals history, if not super competitive Finals.
- [09:39]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah.
- [09:40]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Now I just want to knit. Go ahead.
- [09:42]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, yeah, we're that game one. I just said to myself, if he's going to average like 45 a game, Philly might have a shot. If he's going to really go 45, 50 every game. I just figured there was no, you know, there, there are limits to the human body and there was just no way he was going to probably be able to do that. And then, yeah, to the fact that Shaq is like treating Dikembe Mutombo like he's like a nobody in the. Yeah, the fact they got that game and people forget that Laker team hadn't lost a game in the playoffs and they had just destroyed Tim Duncan spurs like they destroyed them and Allen is the only guy that got a game from that team.
- [10:25]
Jake King (Host)
It really is incredible. They almost had a 16 or probably 150 at that time run through the playoffs. They were just so much better than everybody. But Alan. Alan. Man, he really was legendary. This list, like, obviously these aren't the very best players in NBA history. This might be the coolest group of players in. In the top hundred. Like Allen Iverson, just super cool. Clyde the Glide Drexler, as cool as it gets. George Gervin in his finger rolls, cool. Gary Payton, trash talking all the time cool. Like Dominique Wilkins, human highlight reel, just cool.
- [11:07]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
This is.
- [11:07]
Jake King (Host)
This is the. I would say this is the coolest group of players.
- [11:13]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
You don't even fall back on the Iceman. You see George Girvin, but you said George Girvin, but you didn't bring up the nickname the Iceman. And cool, like, it was right there for you. So a professional host might have had that one.
- [11:26]
Jake King (Host)
Jay, In. In researching for this podcast, I. I found that probably the coolest George Gervin story of them all. There was one game. Must have been during the peak of his powers. The. The Pacers ran a promotion that if they held Gervin under 30 points, everybody in the building would get free chicken. And he scored 25 points in the first half and started yelling at the crowd, no chicken. Just incredible. And then he ended up with 55 points in the game on the night that everyone in the crowd would have gotten chicken if they just held him under 30. That. That is not the lowest bar out there. Like, they were willing to give chicken out. And. And he took away everybody's chicken.
- [12:14]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
We should bring that back. Like the individual giveaway, like, just based on stopping a star player. I feel like that would.
- [12:23]
Jake King (Host)
That would.
- [12:23]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
We're always talking about how to make the regular season more interesting. It's like, keep Shane Gils Alexander off the line. The line for 10 times. You know, if you could hold up to nine or fewer free throws, everybody gets, I don't know, a slice of pizza or something.
- [12:38]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I wonder how the league's betting partners would feel about competition from the teams Over. Over that.
- [12:45]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Like, you know, hey, I'm sure it'd be fine. Everything's on the up and up. Everything's great. That'd be fine.
- [12:51]
Jake King (Host)
And it would. I would. I would guess it would juice people actually betting on those games because then you'd be betting on the over or under for Shade Gill just going to the line based on the promotion because he would want to be taking away the chicken from everybody. And, and at least if he was.
- [13:10]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
At least if he was George Gervin, he would. Yeah, if he's got that ice mat in him.
- [13:15]
Jake King (Host)
My. My personal player that I brought me the most joy or excitement when I read this list, is not my favorite player on this list at all, but Russell Westbrook, because I, I just feel like his career will spark great debate about where he deserves to be on this list. Should he be higher? Should it be lower? Were some of his stats a little empty? Did he deserve the one MVP that he has? And obviously he's, he's been incredible. The things that he's done in his career been ridiculous. The fact that he's still going and still part of rotations at his age, even after he's lost some of his next world athleticism. Like, I was happy to see Russell Westbrook on here because I think it'll be fun to kind of debate his place in the game. And I don't think it's easy to sort of quantify everything that is Russell Westbrook, probably similarly to Allen Iverson in that way.
- [14:16]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
I was about to bring those two up because they're two guys like these dominant guards who had the ball all the time and once they weren't quite that, they really struggled to find a role. And I mean, Russ sort of found a way back in with the Clippers and then the Nuggets this past year, but even then, like, there were moments where it's like, oh, this guy can't be out there. But when they were at. And especially Russ, just so physically dominant. It's like when he got a, when he got speed, when, when he got to full speed, that combination of speed and power was just impossible to stop. And it, it was breathtaking to watch.
- [15:04]
Jake King (Host)
It really was like. And, and it would be like just watching a whirlwind. And I, I think he described it best during, I think it was during the playoffs this year when he was kind of like, yeah, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna be me. Which means sometimes I'll have a turnover, sometimes I'll do something great, sometimes I'll get a dunk, sometimes I'll do this. And it's like, yeah, that's, that's Russell Westbrook. It's just, he's always going to be doing something. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's great, sometimes it's terrible. And it would all show up, like, in crunch time. Sometimes you couldn't even when he was at his best, like mvp, be like, can you really trust Russell Westbrook in crunch time of a game? Sometimes you could, sometimes you couldn't. But, like, at the end of the day, to average a 30 point triple double and win MVP, like, some of the things he's done are just ridiculous. And nobody else has the capacity to, to do that. Like it's, it's so hard to have a 30 point triple double average that for a full season, like even to get the opportunities to do that. Like there aren't many guys who could even consider that. So Russell Westbrook and Allen Iverson, like, to me those are very comparable guys where they're tough fits. They were tough fits on their teams. They probably sometimes took away from other guys, but also at their best, they were just utterly breathtaking and did stuff that nobody else could do, especially at their size. And obviously Russ wasn't as small as Allen Iverson, but still not the biggest guy in the world, but man, could he fly.
- [16:39]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
And the thing about both of those guys is that you have stars where people will question, does this guy want to take the last shot? Does he want the ball late? You never question that about either one of those guys. You know, it may go great, it may go horrible. But you knew, you, you knew Russ would take that shot if the shot was there. You know, he, there was never question. Right? You, you never questioned that Russ was going to go, was going to go for it. Same with Allen. You know, there was never a debate about. In the fourth quarter, does Allen Iverson want the ball? He wanted the ball. Go first, second, third, fourth over whenever.
- [17:14]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
I don't know, Jason. I, I still remember him giving it up to Aaron McKee and Jermaine Jones in game seven against the, against the Raptors. He's a willing passer. I kid for sure. Those guys, you know, just guys who owned it and wore it every day and you know, even if you got frustrated with them and the way they played, you couldn't hold their effort to account or anything like that. They were always given everything they had.
- [17:43]
Jake King (Host)
Unless it was practice. Well, I mean, then you could maybe hold the effort into account.
- [17:49]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Work.
- [17:50]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Work smarter. Not, not more.
- [17:53]
Jake King (Host)
Ex. All right, I'm going to start this next question with you, Eric. Who is too high on this list? Who would you want to move down some spots?
- [18:26]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Are we sure Reggie Miller should be this high?
- [18:29]
Jake King (Host)
I like that.
- [18:32]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
One of the greatest shooters of all time. Undoubtedly an okay defender for his position. Not somebody you'd be like, ah, this guy's going to lock you down tonight.
- [18:42]
Jake King (Host)
Five.
- [18:43]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Only five All Star births in what I think was 18 seasons. And he was never top 10 in MVP voting, not once. Great player, memorable player. Obviously, you know, we got to revisit Pacers dicks this the last two playoffs. And so his Role in some really big moments. A part of a lot of really good teams. Whether it was the teams that were just falling short for the Bulls. Those teams after that competed and made the championships the finals in 2000 and lost to the Lakers in the lake. The Shaq and Kobe Lakers first title. Really good player. I'm not sure he did quite enough on the court to be this high. That, that's, that's sort of how I, that, that's, that's the one that popped out for me.
- [19:34]
Jake King (Host)
I don't hate it. I don't hate it. He only made three all NBA teams, they were all third team. So he, he was never one of the like absolute best players in the league. But I do think it really helps his reputation that he had all the moments like, like he had the, the choke sign. He had. Like there were so many things you can point to. The eight points in nine seconds that Reggie just kind of left behind. Those teams also were very close to, to winning and winning against the Michael Jordan Chicago Bulls, which should not go unnoticed. I would have loved to see Reggie in today's game because obviously he was ahead of his time with his ability to shoot and shoot off movement and all that stuff, but probably would have been utilized a lot more if he had played, you know, 20 years later. And, and maybe then we're having a totally different conversation about Reggie Miller because he, because of the way that his, his unique skill, his movement shooting was, was utilized even back then. It was totally different than, than a lot of guys. He finished his career as the number one all time in three point makes. He's since been passed by, I think it's five players. So yeah, I'm kind of with you that he might be on this list. A little overrated. But I also want to give him credit for everything he did accomplish and also the fact that his style was like super easy to fit on a team. It was probably one of the reasons why the Pacers were able to have so many other threats on the team. Have such a deep and well rounded group. When you think about Rick Smith's the, the Davises, they had Mark Jackson, Travis Best, Austin Crozier popped up and had some, some big games for them. Like later in his career you got.
- [21:42]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Jalen Rose, Jermaine, Jermaine o' Neal at the tail end. He was on that Malice in the Palace. I think that was his, maybe his last year, if not the second last year. The Malice in the palace here.
- [21:54]
Jake King (Host)
Yeah.
- [21:56]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
So longevity for sure. A great player on a lot of really great teams. And that's what's so hard about all of this. Right? I know. I see somebody's notes in here for our next guy, and it's a good segue. It's like, do you want the long career with the steady plateau, sort of high points, but maybe no spikes? Or do you want somebody who was like, one of the best players in the world for three years, but other than that has been tough to count on? Should we say.
- [22:33]
Jake King (Host)
Jason? I think that's Jason.
- [22:35]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:36]
Jake King (Host)
Who was too high here, Jason.
- [22:39]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Oh, for me, it was. I kind of went back and forth, but it's Joel Embiid. I. I can't live.
- [22:44]
Jake King (Host)
Are you sure you went back and forth? Because you put five exclamation points.
- [22:49]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Because I almost said he was way.
- [22:51]
Jake King (Host)
Too high on the Google.
- [22:52]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I almost said Paul Pierce, but I had to remove my bias of my LA bias, you know? But it's just. I can't live in a world where Joel Embiid, the head of Allen Iverson, I'm like. And if we're going to take away from basketball, and this is almost even a bad. I'm trying to think of, like a music comp. It's like Joel Embiid is almost like. I can't even say Biggie, but it's like he's like. He's like that artist who had that one really great album, but then we never got to see what it would look like, how he would go back, how album number five would look. And for me, Embiid had one great year. Like, he had the MVP year. But he's also a guy who's missed a ton of time, outrageous amount of time. He's never got out the second round of the playoffs. I know it's a team game and all, but I felt like that, whether it be the Ben Simmons stuff that was there, Joel got a lot of passes for not showing up. You know, in some of those games, that Game seven they lost to Atlanta, he was. He was not very good either. He had some really bad moments late in that game. But having a. Having a Ben Simmons as a teammate covered for that, and a lot of people just didn't focus on it. But I just think to have, you know, to have the. Knowing what we know, even through this year, to have him ahead of Allen Iverson, to me, is just crazy.
- [24:17]
Jake King (Host)
And so I believe that this list was put together two years ago in preparation for the book that we wrote as a staff. And at the time, I think with some of the younger Guys especially, it was projecting forward. What are these guys? Where are they going to land if they continue? Not necessarily on their current projection, but if they have like a normal career arc. And right now I think the quest, the conversation about him is probably a little different because it's, it's harder to envision him continuing to reach that ceiling over the rest of his career just because of the, the amount of injuries he's dealt with. And maybe he can get, get by it and work through it and his body will hold up for the rest of the his career and he'll get past the second round, win a championship, play more MVP level ball. But you're right, right now it, as you look at it, it's like he was a shooting star and it wasn't just, I don't think it was just the one MVP year. And, and I do want to give him credit because he is the size of Shaq almost and, and he has like Kobe's game. Like, like he, he plays from like the elbows and he has all that. And it's just impossible to be that size and that gifted and that skilled and that good a shooter. And I feel like he's been robbed in some ways by his body. Like he missed the first two years of his career. But this, this list is not judging like what you could have been, what, what, how much your potential has been lost. It's, it's what you've done. And I'm with you. He's probably a little too high, but I think there's also still room for him if he, if he does get healthy again to, to make this ranking warranted and also maybe to climb even higher if he is able to put together fe I was able to reach the level he was at before again.
- [26:21]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
So a few thoughts, a few thoughts on my part. First of all, he is a guy whose numbers went down in the playoff. And sometimes that was injury related, sometimes not. And now you're playing the best player, the best teams, the best defenses. Logically your numbers should go down in the playoffs. But that became a trend even, you know, when he was relatively healthy. To speak to his availability. I thought it was hilarious that he and Elvin Hayes were right next to each other. I have to credit my, my colleague Michael Grange from sportsnet for this one because he. We were on a road trip that took the Raptors to Houston and of course Elvin Hayes played at the University of Houston and he was just going through Elvin Hayes basketball reference page. He started his career, elvin Hayes, with 14 seasons of playing at least 80 games and at least 37 minutes per game. I think the kids say built different. But even if you take. So let's compare them. You take away Embiid's first two seasons, which he missed because of injuries. Embiid has now played nine seasons. So Embiid has played 511 games regular season and playoff through nine seasons. An average of 56.7 games per year. Alvin Hayes played 785 games in his first nine seasons. Or the average, an average of 87.2 games per year. It's just funny how it worked out that, you know, a guy defined by his longevity and durability are right next to a guy who unfortunately might go down as somebody who's defined by unable, being unable to stay on the court.
- [28:11]
Jake King (Host)
Yeah, some of his stats were. I feel like he's kind of underappreciated and kind of overlooked when you look back at, at some of the all time greats. He averaged 28.4 points and 17.1 rebounds per game as a rookie.
- [28:34]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
He never came off the floor as a rookie. He made those per 36es.
- [28:39]
Jake King (Host)
He made 12 straight all star games. He brought the Washington Bullets to three finals in the 1970s. Won it in 1979, I believe. And that was oh, they lost the finals in 1979, won it in 1978. 1979 was the last time that franchise has won 50 games. Elvin Hayes won with a franchise that has never been able to get 50 wins otherwise. He also this, this is kind of a, not really a worthwhile detail in relation to his playing career, but kind of outrageous. He quit coaching a professional women's team after a single game. And in the statement from the team, the team said that he did so because of prior commitments. But a PR person later added, I don't know why he left. He didn't tell us anything. He didn't really give us a reason. So he just quit after one game. Got to appreciate that. But he, he's right now 4th all time in rebounds, 13th all time in points and, and he's someone that rarely gets discussed. I feel like among the all time greats.
- [30:03]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
So played in one of the biggest college, one of the greatest college games of all time.
- [30:08]
Jake King (Host)
Yep. Add that to his resume. I just feel like Elvin probably he's one of those guys that's sort of been lost to history and I don't think he, he should be.
- [30:20]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah. And I think when you talk about Embiid, I don't hold the injuries against him like in the sense I always tell folks, I don't think there's any player who tries to get hurt and just wants to be hurt. But I also look, I just look at the totality. You know, he has time to still do a lot. But you look at somebody like a Bill Walton. Bill Walton happened to come into a situation where he could win a championship early and then kind of reinvent himself down the road and you know, then on those Boston teams and coming, you know, becoming a elite level six man. So I mean, I think there's time, I don't know, given how much Embiid's going to make salary wise, if you want to turn him into a six man yet. But I think there's still time for him. But I think even two years ago I just would not have had him ahead of Allen Iverson. Two, even two years ago it would have, I would have had the, in my mind been like, okay, he's going to win like a couple of chips for me to have him ahead of Allen. That'll just, that's, you know, that maybe that's just my, my iris and bias, but that's just me.
- [31:24]
Jake King (Host)
All right, if we're sliding down Embiid and we're sliding down Reggie Miller, who's moving up on this list? Jason, let's start with you.
- [31:34]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Okay. Who's moving up as a salesperson?
- [31:38]
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- [34:07]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I think I'm, I'm, I'm moving Allen up. Obviously to me that's so yeah, I.
- [34:18]
Jake King (Host)
Think you're not moving up your guy, James Worthy.
- [34:21]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I'm thinking about it. You know, I'm thinking, because I'm thinking I, I, I, I, I right now would have McAdoo ahead of someone like Embiid. See I just think Embiid's overall just you know, too high. So I mean I'd move a few guys up and I'd drop him down quite a bit. I think Elvin Hayes, you know he's, he's, he's cool where he is but if he were in the Top no top 40, that wouldn't be crazy. You know. But I think probably the, the guys who stand, I think could definitely stand the slide down would be Embiid. I think Reggie Miller's too high. I think Reggie's like the hall of very good. You know, I don't, you know, I think he was a hell of a player but in totality, I mean some of it's the fact that you know he was never going to be a first team all NBA guard as he played during when Michael Jordan played and then that shifted into like the Kobe years. He was never going to get that. But I just never thought when I, whenever I thought of a top 10 player in the NBA. I would have never thought about Reggie. You said top 20. Yeah, but not top 10. That's why I think Reggie's a little high. I probably move up Clyde Fraser a little. And then I think some guys like, you know, I think guys like Luca and those guys will have their time the kind of work their way up. But I think McAdoo, you know, McAdoo, you look at some of Bob McAdoo's numbers, they were ridiculous. So I think I've talked to her about everybody else. But yeah, I think Matt, I would probably say McAdoo definitely gets moved up. Frazier gets moved up. No, Reggie gets, Iverson gets moved up. I think I'll stick with that one.
- [36:01]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
I think, you know, I, I again I could have the similar bias to you, Jason, but I think Gary Payton has a case to be higher as well. Like we, he had a run of consistency at the top level of the sport that I think we underrate for. Like I mentioned, like probably the best defensive guard of all time, at least modern day, you know, last 40 years. Let's say you won one defensive. I know Jay, you covered that memorable Marcus Smart defensive player of the year and probably had a chance to talk to Gary Payton or had reflections on Gary.
- [36:40]
Jake King (Host)
I was supposed to talk to Gary Payton about him and it never worked out. Let's just say that.
- [36:48]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, I mean maybe you just weren't ready for what he was going to say. But, but a defensive player of the year nine straight, first team all defense. Now, as we know, you know, I've been a voter on, on these awards. I think you guys probably have too. Sometimes all defense can be reputation votes, let's just say especially, you know, when we didn't have as many metrics, you know, 30 years ago, but legitimately the guy you did not want to see across you and then seven consecutive top 10 finishes in MVP voting. That's not, you know, should this guy, you know, should this guy be third team all NBA? This guy was the first team, second team all NBA for a long, long time. And I think he has a case to be, you know, closer to the top of this group than the middle of this group.
- [37:42]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
And if you ask some guys from Seattle if George Carl lets him guard Michael Jordan earlier, that's they might have a championship in 96.
- [37:53]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, I think the, the Bulls went up three. Nothing. Then the Sonics took two and then the Bulls one and six, if memory serves.
- [37:59]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I believe so. Yeah. I believe so, yeah. Yeah, it's, and it's weird Too. People have this idea that Gary Payton wasn't an offensive player at all. Somebody was telling that the other day like well, Gary Payton really couldn't score. Gary Payton had a few 20 plus point a game seasons. Yeah, yeah. And he did it and he was a two way player. He wasn't take, you know, he wasn't taking possessions off. He legit was going to guard the best guard.
- [38:25]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, personally I think Michael would have found a way in that series if they put, if they put Peyton on him. But I understand the sentiment as somebody who's been bitter about a few losses of his home team at the time. But yeah, I think his resume runs pretty deep and I could see a case and hopefully have made the case that he should be closer to 40 than he is right now, which is.
- [38:49]
Jake King (Host)
That maybe it's just yeah, the Boston guy in me, but I also, I, I don't know what to do with Bob Cousy on this list. I don't, I just don't. His, his legacy, his, his career is just very hard to frame in modern standards. He shot 37.5% from the field for his career, like just not great. And, and it was a different era. Guys were, had different efficiency back then. But I, I think he's one of the guys who if advanced statistics were well known back then, might have been valued a little differently than he was at the time. However, those who were around when Bob Cousy was around, he was first team all NBA 10 straight times, which means they consider him the best point guard in the league for an entire decade. He was at MVP one year. He won, I believe it was six championships. Was he a Bill Russell Merchant? Maybe There were a lot of guys who were Bill muscle, Bill Russell merchants. But he also was first team all NBA four times before Bill Russell arrived. An all star in each of his first. Well all of his seasons except for the one when he came out of retirement and played seven games with the Cincinnati Royals seven years after he retired. Who can forgot, who could forget about his time with the Cincinnati Royals. But it's a very, very interesting case because I think you could look at our list and he's at 40 and it's like this guy was unquestionably at the time the best point guard in the league for 10 straight years. A league MVP, won a ton of titles and we have him 40th. But at the same time like I, I could also see him dropping down this list a little bit. I, I really don't know what to.
- [40:57]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Do with Bobby I think like, time is such. I mean, it's such an interesting factor, obviously. And I think like from the beginning of the NBA till sort of 1960, 1965, that sort of one time period, and you have a bigger group, a bigger span that is more interchangeable. And then after Everybody starts shooting three pointers in, you know, the mid-2000 or the mid 2010s, even before that a bit, it again becomes very difficult to just look and contrast with box score statistics and. And even some advanced statistics, like just such a prize put on efficiency. And, you know, without having been there for Koozie, you know, none of us were obviously, you know, me and Jason got some gray in our beards, but we ain't that old.
- [41:52]
Jake King (Host)
I would if I could grow a beard, but I can't.
- [41:55]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah.
- [41:55]
Jake King (Host)
So salute to you guys. Congratulations.
- [41:58]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Know thyself, Jay. It's so hard to do, but, you know, I think at some point you got to take the word of some of the great chroniclers of the game we have in our past and, you know, a part of so many championship teams and a big. A damned big part.
- [42:15]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I think you got to consider just the impact the player had when they played. Because I'm in my mid, late 40s now, and I find myself explaining the younger people who don't understand, well, why a guy in the 90s or the 80s was such a big deal. They're like, well, look at this. He only. They'll say Larry Bird didn't shoot a lot of threes. And people say Larry Bird is one of the best three point shooters of all time. They're like, well, how come he didn't shoot 10 a game? I'm like, well, because no one shot 10 a game. In trying to put some context around it, so you do have to kind of sometimes just look at the impact. And I think even 20, 25 years ago, there's no debate about where Bob Cousy fits. But then as you get further away from his playing days, like you said, you look at the numbers like even beyond a guy like a. And he's not in his group like a guy like Miken. His numbers would look terrible for a big, you know, in 2025. But he was the. The best big in the. In the league, and it wasn't close. So I think, you know, I would feel bad. I wouldn't feel right moving Koozie down, you know, but it's. But, you know, the. Just because of the impact. Just because, I mean, the impact is clear that he had on the League when he played because he's not going to have the same numbers as anybody on the list. He's not going to have the numbers of Peyton or, or Russ or any of those guys. But you know, like I said, he was an all star before Bill Russell got there.
- [43:42]
Jake King (Host)
Yeah. And someone who kind of changed the point guard position, played with a flair and creativity that, that not a lot of guys had back then that probably nobody else had back then. So. But, but Koozie, he was interesting on this list. Another, another one who's interesting. Does Dwight Howard get enough credit? Let's start with you, Eric.
- [44:07]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Once you, when you said like best big of his arrow and you were talking about George, Mike and Jason, my mind went to Dwight Howard because you know, in that like declining Shaq era before and you know we, we sort of got a lot of power forward, stretch forwards coming in but like Dwight was the guy and then Shaq was like yelling at him to develop his post moves and, and he's such, I like even now I don't know whether he is under or overrated. I have no good feel for him because like legitimately one of the most impactful defenders of his era. Maybe even more than that. Like he, you know, again my Toronto bias coming in, he made Hito Turkoglu look passable so that the Raptors gave him a four year contract near the max.
- [45:02]
Jake King (Host)
Don't. No, no, no, we're not gonna shame he do now. This is not gonna be Hito Turkoglu slander. That dude was a 610 playmaker.
- [45:13]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Super, super skilled. The Turkish D. But, but, but it's like, well, if this guy was a defender in the best defense in the league for Orlando, obviously he can't be that bad defensively. He could. And that's because Dwight Howard was there to erase a lot of mistakes. And those Orlando teams, the one that made the finals and lost to the Lakers in 09, I believe, but they had a nice little run. And you know Dwight Howard, he probably should have had that MVP in the first LeBron the year that Derrick Rose won. I think Dwight Howard had a really good case to win mvp. And then we're looking at somebody at what do we have him at 56 here and a former MVP who's at 56, maybe he's a bit higher at the same time. Jack was right. Never developed any sort of post move, was like a rim runner, a glorified rim runner on offense, you know, fell into role playing status. And there's nothing wrong with that, but like you know, when that athleticism was stopped a little bit, he obviously lost a lot of his utility. So I don't know how to, like, square him up still. I know that's not a satisfying answer, but I can see compelling arguments on both sides.
- [46:37]
Jake King (Host)
I feel like he's appropriately ranked here. I think he was left off the top 75 entirely. Whose list was that? Was it the NBA's list?
- [46:48]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
The NBA's list.
- [46:50]
Jake King (Host)
And I can remember I was on the phone for a story with Dave Cowins and he wanted to ask me and talk about Dwight Howard and tell me that, like, the list got it wrong, that Dwight Howard should have been on that list. I was talking to him about something entirely different, and he's like, dwight Howard should have been on the top 75 list. I'm like, if you say it like, I, I, I agree with you. So I think he was disrespected by the list. But where we put him, I think he's more respected. And with, with him, a lot of it was like, in his prime, he was so much more athletic than any other big, like, it was not even close how, how much higher he could jump, how much better he could move. He was just an extremely gifted athlete, the rarest of the rare. But that didn't last forever. And then all the other stuff that he never developed kind of came back to matter a little bit more. And, and so his peak, as, as stunning as it was and as high as it was, didn't last long. And before you knew it, he was, you know, just on the Lakers, like, roughing up people. And he actually was pretty good for the Lakers that, when they won the title. But, but he, like, it's, I think a lot of people forget about Dwight Howard when, when he was at his best because he just wasn't there for a long time.
- [48:26]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
And I think people forget about Dwight as the back injury, the, the white that got traded to the Lakers was coming off that back surgery and he just never got back to being Orlando Dwight. And I think there was a struggle for Dwight to accept that for his career to go to be prolonged as a star. Think of what did Kobe say he'd be great if he was like our Tyson Chandler type. And Dwight wanted to, I'm going to get the ball. I'm going to do this. And I think that, I think that the injury was a big part of his athletic demise. And then so when he didn't have that freak athleticism, you know, it's not like he could rely on his, you know, 15 foot, you know, bank shot like a Duncan did or, you know, because defensively he still knew how to do everything. He just couldn't jump out the gym anymore. And he, he also just didn't have offensive, you know, when he could. You think about that 09 series against Cleveland. All he did was face up Big Z and run right by him. There was nothing Ilgal could do with him. And he just face him up, go right by him. And when he didn't have that, I think that that changed. Then you saw the, the fact that the other part that the game never developed and how that impacted his. His career, but the fact that he lasted as long as he did in the league was just the fact that I think defensively he still knew what to do. He was still strong. You know, I mean, some people still look at him as the blueprint of how to play Jokic physically. Just that you don't have guys who are that strong around who can do that.
- [49:56]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Demerits for bringing props to the dunk contest. I hold him as one of the, as one of the guys who's most responsible for. For the dog contest becoming just a prop fest. Yeah, I don't think that should weigh into the top 100 here, but I needed to say it. It is my truth.
- [50:20]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I think it does affect his perception, though, because you think about Dwight's career highlights. A lot of people go to the dunk contest and the Superman thing and then, well, Shaq was Superman first. You can't be Superman if Shaq was Superman. And I think there was just a lot of, you know, things like that. People think about that when it comes to Dwight, they don't think about the player that he was, especially defensively. I mean, his. At his peak. You know, you look at the guys who. You mentioned, Turkoglu, it wasn't like he had a. He didn't have a Scottie Pippen anywhere else on the floor with him.
- [50:55]
Jake King (Host)
You don't consider Rashad Lewis a Scottie Pippen?
- [50:58]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Not quite. You know, not quite.
- [51:00]
Jake King (Host)
You know, he didn't know Scottie Pippen to you.
- [51:03]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I mean, you look at the team that got to the finals, when you look back at it, it's like, you know, you got to give Dwight some, some props for the fact they got that far with that team.
- [51:13]
Jake King (Host)
And that year. Jameer Nelson was hurt in the playoffs. Right. For. For much of the playoffs.
- [51:19]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Ray for Alston time.
- [51:20]
Jake King (Host)
Ray for Alston was. Was their starting point guard. Yeah. And that was. I mean, they beat LeBron, they beat the Celtics I know Kevin Garnett was hurt, but that was still a proud Celtics team with a lot of really good players.
- [51:41]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
So, yeah, went over that went over LeBron's Cavs. I think that LeBron had a game winner in that series and it was like his best playoff moment for a long time in his career was in that series. And like the Magic actually just waxed them most mostly. But LeBron had an awesome moment. I, I think it was, I think that was odd.
- [52:04]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, it was, it was like that top over.
- [52:06]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
He know. Yeah. Yeah.
- [52:09]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Oh, he knows. Just getting just.
- [52:11]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, I had to have. He don't on for defense. He knew the assignment.
- [52:13]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Poor Heato. He didn't do anything to us today.
- [52:16]
Jake King (Host)
I had to. One, one last question before we get out of here. Where will Luka Doncic end up on this list in the future? Jason, let's start with you.
- [52:29]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
If he wins two or three championships in LA, he's easily top 15, if not higher. I think, I think the numbers are going to be there with him. I think the la, you know, if you grade on the LA curve, he's going to get a boost for being a Laker. I mean, if we're being honest, a lot of these guys get boosted based on where they accomplished it. If you do it as a Laker, as a Celtic, if people look at it a little differently. So I think he win, if he, he stays in la, he wins a couple of rings, he's easily going to be top 15 if he gets to that, that four ring era, that, that, that, you know, if he gets into that range, I think he'll, he'll be top 10 in knocking at guys like Larry, you know, Steph, those type of guys to see where he might fit in the top ten.
- [53:20]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Look at, look at you counting up to four rings for him already.
- [53:26]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I said, I said if, you know, I said if.
- [53:30]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
It's a difficult one, right, because like we're entering the world where you either had to be MVP or win a bunch of titles. Like, it's hard to get into a higher part of this conversation without that. And so far, Luca has none of those, like Met one finals run. Probably could have had a few playoff or a few. Or an MVP if he had been healthier, maybe. Although he had the misfortune to be. To have his best year so far be against, you know, peak Giannis and Peak Embiid and PK who are just sort of freaks at the big position. I think his, you know, assuming a baseline of health and, you know, Nico Harrison Traded him for a reason. So let's never assume, but assuming that like, I think the numbers are just going to like put him in the top 25 and I think, you know, you start to add those accolades on there. Even if it's like two MVPs and a title or, you know, something like that, he is getting into that top 15, top 10 conversation.
- [54:33]
Jake King (Host)
Yeah, he already has five first team all NBAs, which is already, especially at his age, like, he's in rare company with that. If, if he continues to pile those up and, and he's 31, 32 with 10 first team all NBAs, then you have to move him up into the top 30 or so. Just off that. To me, he's in a place where he can either decide I'm going to get myself in shape, I'm going to like really, really commit to this and ascend to the level of the like, true, like cream of the crop, all time greats. He could be on that list. But it, it all depends on whether he's able to. I don't want to sound like I'm Nico Harrison pilled here, but, but it all depends on, on how much he's, he's willing to put into his body, how much better he's willing to get as a defender. And if he commits to all that, wins championships, then at the end of the day, because of all he's accomplished at his age 26, he has a chance to put himself on a very, very short list of the best players of all time.
- [55:45]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
And he has the ball so much, he's going to push some of those, you know, those LeBron marks in terms of being top 10 and points. And he's, he'll, I think by time he's done playing, barring, you know, any type of significant injury, he'll be top, you know, top 10 scoring, top 10 assists. He's going to, his numbers are going to put him in a very rare and unique conversation. Yeah, he'll be up there. He might be. He'll be up there in triple doubles, you know. You know, and now that the Lakers have been sold, you know, they'll actually be able to afford things, I guess, like, you know, little amenities for him, maybe get him a nice chair in the locker room or whatever it is they need now, and he'll have no excuses.
- [56:30]
Jake King (Host)
I just want to apologize to Paul Pierce, Kevin McHale, Ray Allen and Dominique Wilkins and Anthony Davis. We did not talk about you enough on this podcast. We're sorry. You guys are great. You're fantastic. We didn't mean to ignore you to the extent that we did. You just weren't as compelling as those other guys.
- [56:49]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Jay, are you going to be able to show your face in Boston anymore? Like three songs.
- [56:52]
Jake King (Host)
I was like, I don't know about Bob Cousy and then kind of ignored all the other stuff.
- [56:56]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
You let that, you let that LA guy get on there and just talk about his LA people. You didn't have one good word for Paul Pierce.
- [57:03]
Jake King (Host)
Paul Pierce was a legend where, where I grew up and one of those guys who. He was never like one of the best players, like one of the five best players in the league, but could play like that on any given night or even in any given series. So salute to Paul Pierce. I once. This is. This is. I don't know whether I should be sharing this, but I once had a. Remember when all that stupid Internet talk was comparing Dwyane Wade to Paul Pierce and kind of crapping on Paul Pierce for not being as good as Dwyane Wade?
- [57:39]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah.
- [57:40]
Jake King (Host)
I had a Celtics assistant coach on the. Those teams have played the heat with Dwyane Wade in the playoffs and he's like, yeah, well, I can promise that their game plan was never to let Paul Pierce shoot. Like, basically we wanted Dwyane Wade to shoot and they, they could never do that with Paul Pierce.
- [58:02]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
So, yeah, Paul's a weird one because like you said, he's. He's kind of in that Reggie Miller esque zone of. He was never like the best player in the league or top five, top 10 player, but he was never like, you know, outside of the top 20. He was just, you know, and I think that that 08 chip, you know, probably would. Puts him ahead of some other guy than a lot of people's eyes. But yeah, Paul's one of those. He's tricky because, you know, you never said Paul Pierce is the best small forward in the NBA.
- [58:38]
Jake King (Host)
Why isn't he higher than Reggie Miller on this list though?
- [58:43]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
I don't know.
- [58:44]
Jake King (Host)
He has more all Star games, more all NBA teams. He was. He won a championship.
- [58:54]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Finals mvp.
- [58:55]
Jake King (Host)
Finals mvp. The longevity thing. He was. Wasn't the three point crown, but I think there's a real argument that he should be higher than Reggie Miller on this list.
- [59:03]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, he definitely should be higher than 90s bias. 90s bias.
- [59:07]
Jake King (Host)
I just had to earn my keep in Boston here.
- [59:10]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
You did well. You did really well. I'm back there. I just. I set you up. You delivered.
- [59:15]
Jake King (Host)
Thank you.
- [59:16]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
You can now show your face once more in Boston.
- [59:20]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
You want to add anything on. Yeah, add anything on. Kevin McHale and his. And his legacy or post game was.
- [59:26]
Jake King (Host)
Crazy legend for playing through a broken foot to the point that he couldn't walk right later in his life. Much better defender than most people realize. Salute to Kevin McHale.
- [59:41]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, ask Kurt Rambis about that. And are you allowed to even speak on Ray Allen? Or is that, or is that, you know, did he lose his Boston privileges the moment he went to Miami?
- [59:54]
Jake King (Host)
Not to me. I. Free agency is cool. Free agency is cool. And he also went and won a title and had one of the most memorable shots in finals history. So in retrospect, you cannot blame Ray for leaving.
- [60:08]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
The.
- [60:09]
Jake King (Host)
The writing was on the wall in Boston when he left. Like, those guys were getting too old. LeBron was coming up with the heat. And was it hard on the other guys in Boston? Yeah, sure. But, but Ray, and young Ray, Young Ray was also as cool as it gets. And I think young Ray kind of gets lost because of how he aged and became just simply a three point shooter. But that dude used to dunk on guys. He used to go buy guys. The Milwaukee Bucks of that era with, with him, the big dog, Vin Baker. Those were, those were some teams, man. I enjoyed those squads.
- [60:46]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, this group has a lot of players who you say, what if they played now? Like, what if Ray Allen played in an era where he would be told to shoot 12 threes a game and.
- [60:56]
Jake King (Host)
He also would have been pushed probably to become like a primary ball handler.
- [60:59]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it would have been. Yeah, A guy like him, a guy like Reggie, those guys would have been different, you know. You know, I don't know what a guy like James Worthy, you know, James Worthy would be like an anomaly. He's like a small four with a post game. Something that, you know, you don't see a whole lot of. You know, he wasn't a floor spacer.
- [61:19]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
My rule of thumb is generally the great players would have found a way their game with all the resources available to them. The AAU, the one on one skills training. When you're 12 years old, their games probably get pushed in a way that allows them to assimilate better. And they wouldn't look the same, but they would probably more often than not be still among the best.
- [61:48]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah, I think, I think James Worthy would have figured it out if they asked him. I don't think he was opposed to shooting, you know, outside the post. You know, I, I, yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's just, to me, it's a fun Discussion to have just. It kind of just, you know, would. Could Kevin McHale have been a stretch for. You know, it's. You know, would he have stopped at the three? You know, and we had, you know, Lambert was doing it back then, and he was kind of like a. You know, he was an anomaly, of course, in that era. But I always wonder just how some of these guys, you know, maybe Bob Cousy's efficiency would have been better in this era and they would stop throwing stuff like he played against Plumbers again at him.
- [62:28]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Yeah. Now Jay and Jason can both show their faces in Boston.
- [62:32]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
So I probably. I probably. I still can't. I still can't. You know, I've said bad things about the Patriots and, you know, so, yeah, they still. They still won't allow me, even though I have this sick thing where I have never liked the Patriots, but every Patriot I meet, I like. So it really ruins. It really ruins my sports hatred.
- [62:54]
Jake King (Host)
How many Patriots have you met? Are you just out here meeting Patriots.
- [62:57]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
Left and right now for what I do? Yeah, I mean. I mean, I had an interview with. I've met Gronk a couple of times, you know, you know, Julian Edelman, you know, Tom Brady bought a piece of the football team I grew up rooting for. And I know. I know some of Tom Brady's people, and they're like, you would really like Tom if you met. I'm like, no, I wouldn't.
- [63:16]
Jake King (Host)
You're like, introduce me.
- [63:17]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
They're like, yes, you would. You would really like Tom. I'm like, okay, well, okay. Yeah, yeah. Get me in a room with Tom Brady and I'll be the one to decide, you know, but, yeah, it's, you know. Well, I. But I gotta like Boston. Boston sent me Mookie Bets.
- [63:32]
Jake King (Host)
Come on, man. That's too fresh after the Raphael Devers trade, too. The wounds are deep right now in Boston.
- [63:42]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
I think that's a perfect place to end. That was a brilliant troll job to send us on our way.
- [63:48]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
And I've re established my villain status in Boston.
- [63:52]
Jake King (Host)
Well done, sir.
- [63:53]
Eric Karine (Athletic Analyst)
Bravo to both of you. Both of you have come full circle or where you need to be.
- [63:58]
Jason Jones (Athletic Analyst)
And he goes somewhere wondering why he even came up in this discussion.
- [64:05]
Jake King (Host)
That'll do it for this episode of the Basketball Hundred podcast. Stay tuned for the rest of the episodes. Debating the place of the stars in NBA history.
- [64:22]
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- [66:10]
Jake King (Host)
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- [66:15]
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