Nobody likes the 65-game rule

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Athletic NBA Daily
Episode: "Nobody Likes the 65-Game Rule"
Date: March 25, 2026
Hosts: Dave DuFour & Zena Keita
Guest: Carter Rodriguez (The Chase Down Podcast)

---

Episode Overview

This episode of The Athletic NBA Daily digs into the growing criticism of the NBA’s 65-game rule for postseason awards—a rule now at the center of contention among players, fans, and the NBA itself. Hosts Dave DuFour and Zena Keita examine recent statements from the NBA Players Association (NBPA) targeting both the league's anti-tanking efforts and the unintended negative impact of the 65-game threshold. Later, Carter Rodriguez joins to break down the Cleveland Cavaliers’ recent form, the James Harden experiment, and their playoff trajectory.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The NBPA’s Critique of Injury Management and the 65-Game Rule

Criticism of the Bucks’ Handling of Giannis Antetokounmpo

• [02:32] Dave introduces the NBPA’s unusually vocal stance, highlighting their statement condemning the Milwaukee Bucks for not playing a healthy Giannis.

  • NBPA statement: “The player participation policy was designed by the league to hold teams accountable and ensure that when an All-Star like Giannis is healthy and ready to play, he is on the court…ownership goes unchecked.”
  • Notable Quote:
    • Zena [03:57]: “That is the money maker right there. And honestly, doesn’t that sound oddly familiar to something that Nafisa Collier of the WNBA did just a summer ago…calling out leadership and calling out ownership?”

• The hosts connect this public stance to similar activism seen in the WNBA, suggesting the NBPA is taking a page from their counterparts in demanding more vocal accountability from ownership.

The Impact on Fan Experience and League Integrity

• [04:52] Dave and Zena emphasize the disconnect between player desires, team asset management, and the fan experience.

  • Dave: "If the team is the one that's stopping the guy from playing, what are we even doing here? How is this even a conversation?"

• [05:45] Zena points to the visibility of such decisions and questions: "It's becoming so obvious to the fan…You don't want people to tank, but you're sitting him out to protect an asset. What's the true essence of this rule here?"

Player-Participation Policy & Cade Cunningham’s Award Eligibility

• [06:48] The hosts spotlight Cade Cunningham as another casualty of the 65-game rule.

  • NBPA Statement: “Cade Cunningham’s potential ineligibility for postseason awards after a career defining season is a clear indictment of the 65 game rule and yet another example of why it must be abolished or reformed to create an exception for significant injuries.”

• They reference a Reddit post that retroactively applies the 65-game rule to past seasons, revealing its absurdity (e.g., Kawhi Leonard’s 2019 championship year wouldn’t qualify for All-NBA).

  • Zena [08:16]: “Think about some of the most unbelievable performances over the course of a season not being given the credit it’s due…It’s almost turning injury into punishment.”

  • Dave [09:13]: “The rule was supposed to be punishing basically taking a break, taking a rest. Punish the tankers too, right?”

• [10:04] Zena summarizes: “It’s really about giving credit where credit is due and not punishing these players just because of the timing of injuries and needing to get back to health.”

---

2. Cavaliers Check-In: The James Harden Experience & Playoff Outlook

Cleveland’s March Performance & Health Issues

• [12:55] Carter Rodriguez describes the Cavs’ four-game win streak as “muddling their way through March,” noting injury issues—especially Jared Allen’s extended absence.

• Carter: “Cavs Nation…[is] just not really going to know who this team is until we get to the playoffs.”

James Harden’s Fit in Cleveland

• [13:35] Carter, a self-proclaimed Darius Garland fan, is surprised by Harden’s seamless impact:

  • “This version of James Harden is better than the version of Darius Garland they had this year…His pick and roll chemistry with Jared [Allen] and now with Evan [Mobley]—I was kind of dubious…but with James, he's been phenomenal.”

  • Dave references the standout alley-oop in the latest victory and questions Mobley’s playoff readiness:

    • Dave [15:22]: “Is Evan Mobley…tough enough for playoff time? Does playing with Harden as a finisher help him?”

• Carter expresses concern that Mobley’s involvement fades as games progress despite high efficiency.

  • [16:27] Carter: “Even in this game, he goes 8 of 8 from the field…If Evan Mobley makes his first eight shots, he should probably get more than eight shots up.”

• Carter flags Mobley’s limited playoff usage, emphasizing the need for him to serve as a consistent release valve against blitzing defenses in the postseason.

Harden-Mitchell Pairing, Defensive Concerns, and Role Players

• [19:47] Carter contrasts the Harden-Mitchell and Mitchell-Garland duos:

  • Harden’s gravity makes things easier for Mitchell offensively; however, Harden’s lack of off-ball movement and defensive inattentiveness raises concerns, especially as last-year’s target (Garland) is now missing.

• Carter [21:36]: “If you’re asking me what I'm angsty about most though, it’s that both guards don’t really like guarding off ball.”

• [23:00-25:25] Who is the Cavs’ fifth guy?

  • Most likely Max Strus, but Carter would prefer Sam Merrill for his shooting, movement, and defensive reliability:
    • “It’s more about who’s not going to screw up [defensively]…and Sam Merrill has been the best shooter among the role players.”

Playoff Rotation, Initiation Issues, and Bench X-Factor

• [26:41] Carter raises the question of on-ball creation against playoff defenses if Dennis Schroder isn’t in the rotation—his shooting woes may render him a liability.

  • Dave [27:34]: “Once you get out of the first round…if you’re playing Boston, Detroit, I do think you have a hard time breaking those teams down…Who’s going to step up off the bench is really going to determine how far they get in the playoffs.”

  • Carter: “We have to be able to win minutes with Donovan playing as our backup point guard.”

Expectations & The Pressure of the Harden Trade

• [30:15] Carter reflects on success benchmarks after swinging for Harden:

  • “Anything less than the Eastern Conference finals would be really disappointing. But you’re in the Four seed and four seeds often don’t make the Eastern Conference finals.”

• Dave takes a harder line:

  • [31:11] “I’m of the opinion that it’s conference finals or bust. If they’re a second-round out…I think you’ve got to start to question Donovan Mitchell being around…And I think that’s a question you may have to address regardless once you get to the summer.”

• Carter admits the Harden trade has increased pressure:

  • [31:54] “That’s kind of out the window when you trade for James, like this team…you gotta tip your cap. It would be easy for a front office to say, we’re just going to remain competent. But the swing means expectations are higher.”

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Zena Keita [03:57]: “That is the money maker right there. And honestly, doesn’t that sound oddly familiar to something that Nafisa Collier of the WNBA did just a summer ago…calling out leadership and calling out ownership?”

Dave DuFour [04:52]: “If the team is the one that’s stopping the guy from playing, what are we even doing here? How is this even a conversation?”

NBPA statement (read by Dave) [06:48]: “Cade Cunningham’s potential ineligibility for postseason awards after a career defining season is a clear indictment of the 65 game rule and yet another example of why it must be abolished or reformed…”

Carter Rodriguez [13:35]: “This version of James Harden is better than the version of Darius Garland they had this year…He’s been phenomenal.”

Carter Rodriguez [19:47]: “Both guards don’t really like guarding off ball.”

Dave DuFour [31:11]: “I’m of the opinion that it’s conference finals or bust. If they’re a second-round out…I think you’ve got to start to question Donovan Mitchell being around…”

---

Important Timestamps

• [02:01] — Main content begins; introduction of the 65-game rule controversy.
• [03:48] — Quote from NBPA statement about ownership.
• [06:48] — NBPA’s criticism of Cade Cunningham’s ineligibility due to the 65-game rule.
• [08:16] — Discussion of retroactive application of the game rule to past All-NBA teams.
• [12:55] — Carter Rodriguez joins to discuss the Cavs.
• [13:35] — In-depth analysis of the James Harden trade and impact.
• [15:22] — Evan Mobley’s role and readiness for the playoffs.
• [19:47] — Harden-Mitchell pairing: strengths and defensive weaknesses.
• [23:00] — Debate about who should be the Cavs’ fifth playoff starter.
• [26:41] — Discussion of playoff rotation depth and bench scoring questions.
• [30:15] — Expectations for Cavs’ postseason given their current roster.

---

Conclusion

This episode offered a sharp, timely exploration of the problems and controversies around the NBA’s 65-game rule—a rule that’s increasingly at odds with fairness and player health, as exemplified by the cases of Giannis Antetokounmpo and Cade Cunningham. The hosts emphasized the discontent among players, fans, and media, advocating for a re-examination of policies that punish legitimate injury absences. In the second half, Carter Rodriguez’s insider perspective illuminated the Cavaliers’ post-trade transformation, rising expectations, and postseason uncertainties, especially regarding on-ball creation and defensive makeup. Both topics underscored how league policies and team management approaches are shaping the most important stretch of the NBA season.

Transcript

[A]

Prime One day deliveries fast. How fast we talking? We're talking tissues and hot tea fast. Feel better meds fast. Relieving your door fast. So you can. So you can actually breathe out of both nostrils fast. Like I just ordered and it's already here. Fast, fast. One day delivery to feel better sooner. It's on.

[B]

Prime. Ugh.

[C]

Could this vintage store be any cuter?

[D]

Right?

[B]

And the best part? They accept. Discover.

[C]

Accept Discover In a little place like this? I don't think so, Jennifer.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[C]

Huh?

[B]

Discovers Accepted. Where I like to shop. Come on, baby. Get with the times.

[E]

Right.

[C]

So we shouldn't get the parachute pants.

[B]

These are making a comeback, I think.

[E]

Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.

[F]

There's some harsh realities that we have to face with technology, and one of those is that teens spend an average of 9 hours a day on screens outside of school. That's basically a full time job just mindlessly scrolling. But there's some good news. There's a solution to this problem. A company called Gab has solved the problem by doing something no one else is doing. Their approach is tech and steps. Tech in Steps works by providing safer phones and watches for kids with no social media. Tailored to every age, offering the right device at the right time. From GPS tracking enabled watches for younger kids to phones with parent enabled apps for tweens and teens. Each device allows kids to more safely grow their independence. Bottom line, you don't want to have to give your kid a device that was made for an adult. Give them Gab, which keeps them socially connected. Without social media, I can't recommend Gab enough. And right now use our code to get the best deal on kids phones that will make parenting easier and give them more peace of mind. Visit gab.com mbadaily and use code NBA Daily for an exclusive offer. That's Gab. GA BB.

[E]

Good morning and welcome to the NBA Daily presented by Amazon prime for March 25th, 2026. I'm Dave Defor here with Zena Kada. Coming up, the NBA Players association has some beef with the league. We're going to get into that. Then Carter Rodriguez from the Chase down podcast is here to talk about the Cavs and the James Harden experience. Good morning, everybody. Hey, Xena, how are you?

[D]

I'm wonderful, Dave. It was nice. Easy night of basketball last night. Always nice.

[E]

Yeah, not too bad. We got the Cavs and Magic. Cavs look pretty good at the end of that game. Carter Rodriguez is Going to join me after the break to dig in on the Cavs and the James Harden experience. It's been a fun one for him. The NBA Players association had a lot to say, Xena, yesterday out of nowhere. We haven't really heard much from these guys. You know, there's, there's been scandals all year. There's been. And all sorts of things. You don't hear much from the NBA Players association but for some reason. Xena, we got two notes about the OR from the NBA Players association yesterday. Let's start with their criticism of the Bucks injury management of Giannis Anticompo. They stated the player participation policy was designed by the league to hold teams accountable and ensure that when an all star like Giannis is, is healthy and ready to play, he is on the court. Unfortunately, anti tanking policies are only as effective as their enforcement. And I'm just going to leave it there. The rest of it, you know, you can go read it. It's. It's over at the Athletic straight up. Xena, how do you feel about that? I think I'm kind of into this.

[D]

Dave, you left the one part. Can you go back and check the ownership quote? What did they say about ownership?

[E]

Oh, well, yeah, absolutely. The integrity of the game itself will continue to suffer as long as ownership goes unchecked.

[F]

Boom.

[D]

That is the money maker right there. And honestly, doesn't that sound oddly familiar to something that Nafisa Collier of the WNBA did just a summer ago calling out the leadership of the WNBA and guess who just got a CBA done.

[G]

Yeah.

[D]

In favor of what the players had been calling for for a very long time in terms of revenue sharing and salary cap. I feel like the brothers of the NBA and the particularly the NBPA were probably inspired by what their sisters did in the WNBPA and calling out leadership and calling out ownership and took a little bit, you know, take a page out of their book and realized let's clamor about some things, let's call some things out directly and see what we can do. So yeah, there's a lot of, a lot of applaud for women and the men were like hold on, hold on, hold on. We can make some noise too.

[E]

There's also, look, there's a lot of PR here because when, when players are shut down, they're the ones that it's their name that's on that. And I do think that when you have a situation here where the team and, and owner like the player disagree on what to do, like Giannis is not A shut it down guy. If he's healthy, he wants to play. And even in a lost cause, he still wants to play. And from the buck side they want to protect their asset that they're going to have to now for sure. They're going to be trading this summer, I'm assuming. And so I can understand exactly where they're coming from on this. But if you're a sports league and you've got one of the three or four best players in your league who saying, I would like to play for the people who are paying money to see me there it is, I think you've got a huge problem. If the team is the one that's stopping the guy from playing. What are we even doing here? How is this even a conversation, Xena?

[D]

And the fact that it's gotten so obvious because before you could kind of hide behind, you know, the notion that, oh, we're trying to protect him, but now it's because Giannis has said something. Now the MBPA has backed him up on it and they are directly calling out the anti tanking. Oh, you don't want people to tank, but you're sitting him out to protect an asset. What are we, what's the true essence of this rule here? It's becoming so obvious to the fan. And that's where the real problem is. Because as you mentioned, it's the fan that's paying the money. It's the fan you're trying to appease. If you want your league to be taken seriously and supported. I don't know what we're doing. And you know who also doesn't know what we're doing or what is supposed to happen? Doc Rivers. Because when Doc Rivers was asked about this, he was like, it's a good question. I don't know if the risk of potentially having Giannis Antokounmpo get hurt if he plays is worth the reward of potentially having him traded away and new pieces being added into the buck situation. So it seems like all around lots of people don't know other than the MBPA who thinks this is outrageous.

[E]

Yeah, I mean, listen, and to, to go further into the player participation policy, they also made a statement about Cade Cunningham and his injury. Cade Cunningham, he's played 61 games this season. He is going to fall short of the 65 game threshold to qualify for postseason awards. And, and here's what they had to say about that. Cade Cunningham's potential ineligibility for postseason awards after a career defining season is a clear indictment of the 65 game rule and yet another example of why it must be abolished or reformed to create an exception for significant injuries. And Xena someone on Reddit, I saw this, someone sent this to me. Someone on Reddit went Back to like 1988 and readjusted all the all NBA teams based on the 65 game rule. And it was pretty absurd to look at it laid out. But just think about this season and the the sort of seasons that are not going to be captured by the awards. And I think Cade Cunningham is sort of the exclamation point on what we've been talking about all season long. Nicola Jokic, Shay Gillis Alexander and Victor Womenyama are the top three in the running for MVP right now. And none of these guys can really afford to miss a game the rest of the season because of this. And that doesn't define the season. I mean it's an arbitrary number, 65 games. And this was never an issue when it came to awards. They made it up.

[D]

I'm really happy you brought up that Reddit post because it absolutely is worth checking out. I don't know if we can put it in the show notes or anything but for example Kawhi Leonard in that championship 2018, 2019 season would have technically not been all NBA. Like remember this rule was applied after the 22, 2023 season. So anything before that didn't technically have that limitation. But think about some of the most unbelievable performances over the course of a season not being given the credit it's due. And that's what Cade is about to experience because he technically doesn't fall under the end of season or season ending injury clause which basically gives you a little bit of an out. Is does that give the essence of the rule? Like the essence of the rule is we want you playing when you're available. And it's almost turning injury into punishment. And the rule was supposed to be punishing basically taking a break, taking a rest.

[E]

Punish the tankers too, right?

[D]

I mean and punish the tankers as well. And so when you're actually experiencing athletes really dealing with injuries, truly trying to rest and get better, now they're being punished and the entire resume that they've built up the for the year gets just goes away. Like we cannot deny that Kate has been MVP caliber this season at least NBA caliber, all NBA caliber. And so it's sad. I do not like this but I credit, I do give a lot of credit to the MVPA for speaking out on this. Specifically the Giannis thing. Interesting. It's questionable especially because some folks can say, oh, you just want him to play so he can get any sort of bonuses that might might be attached to playing a certain amount. You don't know.

[E]

I want him to play if he's got bonuses attached. I mean, I don't want him to play.

[G]

Period.

[D]

Exactly. Exactly. But when it comes to this conversation, it's really about giving credit where credit is due and not punishing these players just because of the timing of injuries and needing to get back to health.

[E]

Yeah, Zach Harper over the Balance has been on top of this too. If you guys don't subscribe to that it's great newsletter comes every day and Zach is one of the funniest and best basketball writers on the planet. So definitely do that. And I'll drop that Reddit link into our Discord. The Discord link will be in the show notes, so just make you jump through a few hoops. How about that guys? Stick around after the break. Carter Rodriguez is here and he had a lot to say about the Cavs and what he thinks about the postseason chances

[H]

Prime One day delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking game night delivered by tomorrow night fast so we can win fast. Cards fast. Puzzles fast. Team games at your door in a day fast. Doesn't matter what the game is, we will dominate fast. We're talking game over. You win fast. Fast One day delivery for the win. It's on.

[G]

Prime

[I]

it's that time of year again for texts. We all know the stress of the old way of filing. You send your documents off and then absolute radio silence. You're stuck refreshing your inbox and sending awkward just checking in texts, wondering if they've even started. But with TurboTax Expert full service, I know my TurboTax Expert takes taxes fully off my plate and updates me every step of the way so I don't have to worry. That way I can get back to the things that matter to me, like going on vacation in the spring or enjoying the NFL off season. So stop chasing updates. It's time to switch to the modern tax filing Solution with Intuit TurboTax. The best part? You can get Experts progress right on your phone while you go about your day. So go for a run or grab a coffee. You'll know your dedicated expert is handling it, looking for every last deduction to get you the best possible outcome and every dollar you deserve. File with confidence. Visit turbotax.com, only available with TurboTax Full Service Experts real time updates only in

[G]

iOS mobile app everyone deserves to be connected.

[J]

T Mobile and US Cellular are joining forces. Our networks are coming together bringing more T Mobile coverage all over the country. Switch to T Mobile and save up to 20% versus Verizon by getting built in benefits they leave out. Check the math@t mobile.com Switch and now T Mobile is available in a US cellular store near you. Bigger network the combination of T Mobile and US Cellular's network footprints will enhance the T Mobile network's coverage. Savings versus comparable Verizon plans plus the costs of options, benefits, plan features and taxes and fees vary. Savings with three plus lines include third free line free via monthly bill credits Credit stop if you cancel any lines. Qualifying credit required.

[E]

The Cavs were dominant to close out the game last night against the Magic. They pick up a win. 1:36, 1:31. Our buddy Carter Rodriguez from the Chase down podcast is here to join us. How you doing, man?

[G]

Doing good. You know the, the Cavaliers have won four in a row. Have they been the most, the most dominant and impressive? Uh, four in a row? Uh, no, they're, uh, they're kind of muddling their way through March, much like the rest of the league often tends to do, you know, dealing with some health issues here and there. Jared Allen, we thought he was going to miss maybe a game or two. It's looking like he's going to miss like eight or nine games and maybe more. We don't really have a return date there. You know, I think I, I think Cavs Nation is just kind of writ large, settling into the idea that we're just not really going to know who this team is until we get to the playoffs.

[E]

How's the James Harden experience been for you?

[G]

It's been way better than, than I expected, I think like, you know, when you're a very team focused, you know, a watcher of the game as I am, you kind of do get caught up in the narrative stuff. You get caught up in the foul drawing stuff and like, you know, I, I kind of broke my cardinal rule when kind of getting ready for the hardened experience, which is that I am predisposed to basketball genius. That's like my favorite thing to watch when someone is reading the game at a different rhythm than anyone else on the floor. And he certainly has checked that box. The attention he draws is just, you know, it's just more than what Darius does. Even, even, even though I'm a huge, huge Darius Garland fan and I, you know, you could, you could pick nits on whether this was a smart trade to make long term. But like the reality is this version of James Harden is better than the version of Darius Garland they had this year. And with a, with a healthy Darius Garland last year, they won 64 games and had one of the best offenses in the history of the sport. So, you know, he's. He's been phenomenal. The immediate pick and roll chemistry with Jared and now even with Evan pairing, I was kind of dubious of because Evan is not really, like, that's not really his bag. He's not a set, a good hard screen, rumble to the rim and flush it. He loves to. He loves to slip, he loves to face up. He likes to kind of take his time, pump fake, you know, work his way into something like, you know, I would say sometimes Evan's cursed with, with options and, and in. But with James, he's been phenomenal. I mean, he goes eight of eight in this game against the big, that

[E]

big alley oop in the game last night, which, you know, just stood out. I mean, even him flexing after. Yeah was a little bit like, hey, who's this guy? You know, I. One of my concerns about this Cavs team is come playoff time, is Evan Mobley, does he have enough juice, right? Like, is he tough enough for playoff time? And I wonder if maybe playing with Harden and just getting, you know, getting to be a finisher the way that he's getting a chance to right now, maybe. Maybe that gets him more prepared to be aggressive in the playoffs.

[G]

Yeah, I mean, maybe. I, you know, I think that remains one of the big things to keep an eye on because even even though he's been phenomenal in month of March, averaging 21 and 10 going into this game, up to 61, 62% from the field over the month, you still see the thing happen where the usage is really high to start the game, and then they kind of just forget about him, you know, and, and don't prioritize his touches, don't prioritize his field goal attempts. It's a little scary. I mean, even in this game, he goes 8 of 8 from the field. Like, yeah, if Evan Mobley makes his first eight shots, he should probably get more than eight shots up.

[E]

I agree with that.

[G]

I think my. Is probably the way I would frame it. And you know, one of my go to stats from last year's playoff run is he never exceeded 13 field goal attempts in a game. And I. And as teams, teams are going to throw resources at the guards defensively, they're going to put two on the ball, they're going to blitz, they're going to make their catches harder. And Evan needs to function as a consistent release valve. You know, I don't think he needs to be like Giannis or whatever they were trying to do at the beginning of the year where he's like, initiating against set defenses, but he does need to consistently burn defenses that switch or, or allow him to catch the ball in space.

[E]

And he just never needs to be that guy. Because now you have James Harden and Donovan Mitchell. And part of this is, you know, I think you, when you look at the way the game started last night, you start out James Harden, 16 points in the first quarter. It's easy for Mobley to score off that. But the second half was so Donovan Mitchell heavy. I mean, he winds up with 42. There's not a lot of room there for Evan Mobley to play off of Mitchell because Mitchell's really. He's trying to attack the basket. He's trying to get to that, that step back he's kind of creating on his own. And I wonder if this isn't something that they can play with while they're missing Jared Allen. And maybe you're going to split those Mobley minutes up even more in pairing with Harden.

[G]

Yeah, it's kind of hard because, like, I think to some extent you don't really want Jarrett with Donovan because Jared is so dependent on the catch once you're fully healthy and, you know, and Jarrett is, I mean, like just the perfect hand in glove fit with, with James, I mean, one of the best roll, pick and roll partners that James has ever had. And he's had a lot of really good ones. You know, that their games just immediately mesh so well. And one thing that Evan does provide is I think he provides a little offensive insulation for Donovan because he can do a little creation. He can be, you know, a high post hub and find cutters and. And running an inverted pick and roll with a shooter while Donovan's off ball. That stuff Jarrett can't really do, you know, it's just not really who he is. But, like, I still think the pairings at the end of the day are going to be James, Jarrett, Donovan, Evan. But with that said, when all. When three of those guys are on the floor at the same time, I think we are seeing like the benefit of getting a lot of these reps with James and Evan, because when Jarrett first went out, it was a little rocky. Like you. You saw reporting that like James and Evan were like breaking out separately to talk about their pick and roll chemistry and where Evan wants the ball and James where James needs to get him the ball and things like that and you're really seeing it pay dividends. So like while it's so hard to extrapolate anything from March basketball, especially when frankly like the Cavs effort and attention to detail hasn't been as high as you'd like in some of these games against weaker competition like you are at least getting those reps. Yeah.

[E]

What do you think about the Mitchell Harden pairing? I mean, you know, you compare it to Mitchell and Garland. Obviously Harden's bigger so they're harder to attack just, just because of his sheer size. But what do you think about these two and how do you think it looks come playoff time?

[G]

Well, I'll start on the offensive end. You know, I think James consistent ability to, to force two on the ball and, and be able to attack in isolation consistently. As good as Darius Garland is, again, I'm like the, the captain of the Darius Garland fan club. He is not ever graded out as an elite isolation player as a guy who can just get two on the ball just by existing. And James is able to do that. So I think he's been able to find Donovan a lot easier. Looks, he's able to get defenses in rotation like and while Donovan is not an elite playmaker like I just think his job gets so much easier when he's attacking a defense that's already in rotation both as a score and his reads are just easier. You know, like he, he made, he only had a few assists against the Magic. I thought he was, he made a few phenomenal passes. Yeah, that, that really because he, he's one of the guys like who doesn't always see the pass but when he does see it, he puts it on time, on target and with, with real pace. Yeah. So I, I, I think that is valuable. I have some questions about when the roles are reversed just because James is not a super active off ball player still. Yeah. You know, he is not a guy who's going to run off, you know, three flare screens around the outs on the weak side. Like he's mostly going to post up now. He gets, you know, you look at any gravity stats, he gets guarded the whole time. Right. So basically Donovan does get to go 4 on 4 for the most part. But I do have some questions about that when Donovan's kind of taking his turn as the initiator. But like at the end of the day like Donovan playing four on four should be generally good enough.

[E]

Yeah.

[G]

To, to have, you know, I don't really have a lot of questions with them on the floor together. Offensively, defensively, it's really interesting to me and something I'm, I'm fascinated to see as the stakes of the game raise. Dave, because what, what we saw last year with the Cavs is they switched a lot. They put Darius, they gave Darius the tough matchup and hid Donovan generally. And Darius generally outperformed, you know, what would be expected in those matchups. You know, you graded, graded out really well as an isolation defender, graded out well as an off ball defender. And I think what we're seeing right now is because James Harden, if he does one thing well, it's actually hold up. Okay. In isolation. Right. It's the off ball stuff that he falls asleep on. I think we're seeing Donovan get attacked a little more. You know, even, even when Sam Merrill's out there, who historically is the guy who, you know, you would see get attacked, like whoever he's guarding, like Donovan's man will come up and set a screen and get a switch. I think the onus on Donovan to stand up against switches in isolation defense, I think the onus is going to raise because Darius just isn't there to be that target anymore. I think if you're asking me what I'm angsty about most though, it's that both guards don't really like guarding off ball.

[E]

Yeah. Okay, so then who's the fifth guy for them then? Because someone has got a, like you're gonna have to have a wing or, or someone who can guard on the ball. You've got Mobley and Jared Allen back there. Obviously you're gonna have Harden and you're going to have Mitchell, who's gonna be the fifth guy.

[G]

So there's. I. Who's going to be. I think it's probably going to be Max. Max Truce, who's just came back from a Jones fracture. Who's, you know, I, I have some questions about his foot speed right now as he works his way into game shape. I'm already seeing some improvements. So, you know, he, he might make this a moot point. He's the, he's the best fit at the small forward position. Just because he doesn't make a lot of mistakes. He can hang, he can switch up, which is really, really valuable. That's one everyone's so focused about, like who's going to be the perimeter stopper for the cabs in these lineups. And it's like, well, guys, if they're switching 90% of their ball screens, like, that's probably not the Right. Way to think about it. It's more about who's not going to screw up, who's not going to fall asleep or who's not going to mishandle one of those switches and let someone slip into open space or, or you know, put two on the ball because oh wait, we are switching that. Like that's what you have to watch out for. And Sam or Max is the guy who like I think Kenny probably trusts the most. But if I were the coach of the Cleveland Cavaliers, I just think it's Sam. Yeah, Sam's Sam Merrill has been the, the best shooter of all the role players and I think his movement on offense really helps. Not just let them be the high pick and roll show with the, with the starters. I think there's this idea like, oh well, if you got James and, and Donovan out there with the two bigs, then you don't need anything at the small fort. And I'm like, you need chaos. You need not to be predictable and you need someone to create panic in ways that you're not expecting. I think he's the best panic inducer of any of the lights out this year and his in between game has been much better. And then last year he was a great off ball defender by all the metrics and a pretty mediocre on ball defender. He's by the metrics a pretty good on ball defender this year. So. And again, if you're switching anyway, I'm just not that worried about it. And at the end of the day I also trust him more than anyone to not screw up.

[E]

Right. Well.

[G]

And I just think Donovan and James

[E]

are going to screw up the playoff basketball that you've got that you've got to deal with. Like we're playing defense. It's who, who is the offense going to pick on it. It goes to who's your weakest link. And I, I think you're right. I think Donovan Mitchell is probably the guy that's going to get attacked. Number one. It's, it's a twofold attack. Right number, he's the weakest link, he's the smallest guy on the defense and then you're wearing him down for the offensive end. So I think that that's the thing that the Cavs have to solve for. What other problems are you concerned with once we get to the playoffs?

[G]

Oh man, you know, I thought you

[E]

were about to pull out a list.

[G]

You know, I'm a little worried about, you know, because I just don't know this team very well. Yeah, you know how they just completely changed who they are. So I have a lot of questions. Here's one for you and I'm curious what you think. I'm going to throw this one right back at you. Do you think they have enough on ball initiation? Because I think if you look at what a nine man rotation looks like for them, obviously you're going to have the top four guys. You're going to have Max, you're probably going to have Jalen Tyson, you're probably going to have Dean Wade and then it's like you have Keon Ellis.

[E]

You don't trust Dennis Schroeder come playoff time. I actually think, I think Dennis Schroeder come playoff time is going to be pretty valuable.

[J]

Yeah.

[G]

I just wonder if, I wonder if it, if it's worth giving up because one nice thing about this team is they're not that big outside of their two bigs. And you can really see that with Jared out. But one thing that's nice is everyone else except Donovan will be six five.

[I]

Right.

[G]

If you, if you don't have Dennis out there. So like do you, do you trade, do they need to trade out a Keon Ellis or a Jaylon Tyson out of your playoff rotation to add Dennis's on ball creation and deal with the loss of size and the loss of shooting? Because he is not shooting well.

[E]

Yeah.

[G]

At all this season. So I, I, I, do you think if Dennis isn't in that playoff rotation that they have enough on ball initiation against a set playoff defense?

[E]

I mean, I would be concerned once you get out of the first round for sure. I think that once you get to play some of these better teams, you know, if you wind up somehow and I don't, I don't think it can work out. So they play the Knicks really. But like the Knicks would be a team I wouldn't be too worried about. But man, Boston, that defense, Detroit's defense, I do think you have a hard time breaking those teams down off the dribble, especially the second units. I mean, look, Harden and Donovan Mitchell to me are known quantities. Harden is going to give you two or three great playoff games and two or three bad ones for every six. Right. That that's how it's going to go. And Mitchell has been a playoff riser since he got in the league. It's who's going to step up off the bench that I think is really going to determine how far they get in the playoffs. And that's such a, it's such a cliche thing to say but it's going to be one of these guys that find their way. If they're going to get to, let's say, the conference finals, it's because Dennis Schroeder was good, Keon Ellis was good. You know what I mean? One of these guys coming off the bench actually made some noise. This is, you know, we kind of know this just in the way that NBA playoff series work out, I think

[G]

I lean towards saying, hey, we have to be able to win minutes with Donovan playing as our backup point guard.

[E]

Yeah.

[G]

And, and I need Keon Ellis, I need Jalen Tyson to be playmakers in ways that my starting lineup doesn't really have. I need them to go be aggressive, you know, deflection creators and off ball shooters. And I need to be able to muster a 112, 113 offensive rating in the Donovan at the one minute. And like, frankly, that's been a challenge for them in the postseason. Like, like even on these games where Donovan goes, you know, nuclear and scores 50, 50 points, you look at the offensive rating, it's like 102 and like, so like, I think that's a big question of like, can they generate consistently good offensive outputting lineups across 48 minutes? Because as much focus as there's been on the defense with it with this team, you know, especially in the past couple years with that very small backcourt, and I think that there will still be questions about defense with James and Donovan as well. This team loses playoff games because they can't score. Right. Because they stop being able to generate consistent advantages and they stop being able to break their defense breaks before they're able to break the other team's defense, you know, the Miami series notwithstanding. And I think that will remain the number one question is like, can they just blow the doors off of a really good team like you need to do sometimes?

[E]

Yeah. What does it look like if we look back at this year and say that they had a successful season and postseason?

[G]

It's so tough because like, you know, the, the, the, the like the tough talker in me wants to say, hey, you traded a 26 year old for a 36 year old. You need to make the finals. But the, the more like rational, you know, balanced basketball viewer says you've played 36 total minutes with your top four guys and it's really hard to make the finals when you've changed the identity of your team mid season. So I, I would say anything less than the Eastern Conference finals would be really disappointing. But you're in the Four seed and four seeds often don't make the Eastern Conference finals. So like, I, I, I, I don't know, man. I, I'm a little lost on what feels fair. I, I'd love to throw the question back at you and hear what you think.

[E]

I mean, I, I'm of the opinion that it's conference finals or bust. I, I, if they're a second round out. I, I think you've got to start to question Donovan Mitchell being around, you know, beyond this season. I think you've got to answer some serious questions about Evan Mobley, and I think that that's a question that you may have to address. Regardless, once you get to the summer, is Evan Mobley tracking to, to be the guy that you think he is or think he, that he was supposed to be? And what does that mean for the next couple years? You know, like, they had such a great deadline that I do think that there's, it's actually put more pressure on them to win this year or next year than they had with Darius Garland. Because like you said, yeah, 26, you

[G]

talk yourself into like, we're going to, we, hey, it didn't work. We're cool being like a very good team that hangs around on the competency, you know, that's high on the competency scale and we needed something to break right. We didn't break right. But we're going to build the next era around Darius and Evan and we're going to maybe take a few steps back to take some steps forward in the future. Like, that's kind of out the window when you trade for, for James, like this team and like some say you gotta, you gotta tip your cap. Like, like it would be easy for a front office to say, we're just going to remain competent. Especially a Cavs front office where, like after LeBron left the second time and you have that nightmare first year. Like I remember saying on our podcast, like, I was like, I don't want to be the Sacramento Kings Eastern Conference edition, where we are just constant. Like, I was like, I will happily settle for being the grit and grind Grizzlies for five or six years with a team that every, that I love, that is competent, wins games, plays the right way, and is easy for me to root for, that I feel connected to. But like, front offices don't have the luxury of thinking like, you know, a fan in his mid-30s mostly wants his hobby to be fun.

[E]

Well, hey, look, if there was any year to make a swing for it, this was the one, right? Feels like you got at least a puncher's chance. Carter Rodriguez, guys go and check him out over on the Chase down podcast. Him and Justin Rowan, they, they have a fun time over there. They're good guys. Thanks to Carter. Thanks to Zena Keita. I'm Dave Dufour. This has been the NBA Daily. Thanks for waking up with us. Thanks for listening. Make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode if you enjoyed it. Drop a like leave a rating or let us know in the comments. Thank you guys for waking up with us.

[K]

That new thing yeah, we've got it. The Drop by GNC bringing you all the newness that matters. Hand picked by the pros who actually know what's up and what's proven to work. We keep you on top of the trends and dialed into what's next. Whether you're crushing it at the gym, leveling up your game, or thriving every day, the Drop by GNC is where the latest solutions in health and wellness land first nonstop innovation and fresh finds daily explore what's new and what's next on the Drop by gnc.

[B]

Thy ticket lady, Jennifer of Coolidge. Well, many thanks good sir. Here is my Discover card.

[C]

They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs?

[B]

Yeah, they do.

[C]

Here.

[B]

Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Getith with the times.

[D]

With the Times.

[C]

You're playing the loot.

[B]

Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?

[E]

Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.

[C]

When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.