Dave Dufour (6:15)

What was your reaction to finding this? You know, we've spent the last week listening to people talk about smoking guns and burden of proof and all these things. I mean, this. If we're going to call something a smoking gun, this is about as close as you get.

Pablo Torre (6:31)

Yeah, it's rare to have documentation on every level that I just described. Literally. Documentation, bank statements for the month of December and then previous cash forecast, stock purchase agreement signatures, budgets. Um, it's rare to have that level of visibility on that level of. You may even call it smoke escaping a. Yeah, choose your metaphor. Right. What, what, what. What level of firearm this is? I don't know. I don't know. I think that's the debate, by the way, is like, is this a nuclear weapon? Is this. Whatever. Anyway, the point being that I think that when I think back to, like, just how to describe this, it felt like the thing that was too high a bar to clear that we wound up clearing with a level of clarity that you just don't get.

Dave Dufour (7:28)

Yeah, well, you normally don't circumvent the league rules with so much documentation. You know, I think we all think of this more of a grocery bag full of cash situation rather than, let's involve the lawyers and get this all on paper. Have you, have you heard any response from the newest report that you've put out from the Clippers or the NBA?

Pablo Torre (7:54)

So we, in the course of how we do our show, we gave the Clippers multiple rounds of interview requests. First, they knew generally what we were doing, and then secondly, in the second round, we gave them interview specifics about what we were going to publish. So they're aware. They were aware. They gave us a statement in regards to the first one, and that's quoted in the episode. It was a house of cards. Steve and many others got defrauded. The second round of details go out in which we say a lot of the things that you've just heard and more in this podcast summary, and they did not comment again, so take that for what it's worth. You know, there's an investigation ongoing. I don't expect them to go back and forth, back and forth with me. In fairness to them. In fairness to them, by the way, if you're the Clippers comms person and your job now is to listen to me as I like travel around the podcast ecosystem. Just know I have sympathy for you. This must be a nightmare. As a comms person who I am guessing was not in the loop just being generous here, I'm just guessing that they weren't in the loop on the intricacies of this because God knows, the stuff that I reported, I wasn't totally aware of when all of this was popping off initially. So look, there's just a lot going on. The response though, to your question, NBA hasn't reached out. The Clippers haven't heard since they got to listen to it. So we await and encourage any amount of commentary.

Dave Dufour (9:32)

I mean, you said in your, in your latest podcast, Adam Silver did not address the initial report at the board of governors meeting. The owners did have side conversations about it with Adam Silver and he talked to the media after the board of Governors and you know, they, he answered some questions and then he made a statement. I want to read it. The burden of proof is on the league. If we're going to discuss if we're going to discipline a team owner or a player as a matter of fundamental fairness, I would be reluctant to act as if there was only an appearance of impropriety. The public at times reaches conclusions that later on turn out to be false. What do you think about the way Adam Silver addressed and answered those questions?

Pablo Torre (10:18)

He has a hard job too, is my first thought. I think in front of him is a decision that's probably going to shape his tenure. And I'll just say that with a level of not like hubris, hopefully, but just like at this point. Finger in the wind, what kind of a story is this? I think this is complicated and it speaks to some of the key economic issues, not merely just like the scandal tabloid stuff. It is kind of a perfect storm of there is the tabloid scandal sort of like fascination. Lots of non NBA fans care about this, which metrically we have experienced, as I'm sure you guys have as well. It's kind of mind blowing in that regard, frankly, for cap circumvention and carbon offsets like that. That's that kind of story that's gotten this attention. But then I think it speaks to the economic proposition of like what does a commissioner even do here? You know, like it's I want to move beyond just like the ethical judge and jury part because it's not about moralizing to me at this point. This is about what do people do here. And so for me, my Understanding. And by the way, it's just one of these delicious sorts of like, side plot details that Steve Ballmer's on the audit committee for the NBA, which we also reported in the episode, which is his job is to manage transparency, communication from the financial perspective for the Board of governors. And so here is this guy talking to the room, the big room at the Board of Governors, I am told, and this is also the context for that. I say all that to say that when it comes to what a team spends and how it's capped, how it's regulated via second aprons and so forth, of course, you have the frustrations historically from small market teams, you have the frustrations from large market teams, you have the frustrations from teams that are owned by public companies. Effectively, you have the frustrations from teams that are run by people who are rule abiding. And I think there are probably some out there just to be generous again. So in that context, but also that cynicism, I think it's important for people to realize that what you spend has actually an effect on the most important economic aspect of the league. Like what are these teams valuated at? What do they spend to get that? Whatever, fill in the blank, billion dollar thing. So my point is, if a commissioner does not have this as sort of like number one almost nightmare scenario on top of the press stuff, on top of the subplot stuff around every. And by the way, there's so many other branches of this. But in terms of just like, what would the Board of Governors want to talk about? What they, what did they not talk about in the big room? I think a lot of it has to do with the economics of the league itself.

Dave Dufour (13:08)

When you consider that the timing of this coincided with the Clippers building the new arena and the importance of Kawhi being visible for that. And you know, the entire Paul George situation also tied into that. You know, I read a story by Bruce Arthur, who covers the Toronto Raptors, and he Talked about the 2019, the recruiting process of Kawhi. And listen, it, it's not exactly the same, but this stuff rhymes. And, and then when you consider that the Clippers had a history of doing this, you know, 2015 with DeAndre Jordan, as you, as you've laid out, you know, through citing all the other reporting, it feels as if the league, they're in this position where they're now backed against a wall. When you're talking to people around the league, you know, whether it's executives or team owners or whoever, does punishment come.

Pablo Torre (13:56)

Up when you guys are talking all the time. All the time. And look, it was funny in the episode we did, the second episode we did, which was an argument with Mark Cuban. He was team bomber. I was team shitting bricks. I think today as we talk, I feel pretty good about the size of the bricks, let alone their density, for the record. But I say that to say that Mark told me something in the episode, which I will use as a. Just a general descriptor for how some owners, and he's a minority owner, 27% of the Mavericks, of course, still former controller owner. He said, if this is true, if your reporting is true, then it's over. This is worth. It's worse than Joe Smith. It is worth a punishment in excess of what Joe Smith and the Glenn Taylor and the Kevin McHale and T. Wolf saga a quarter century ago was inflation adjusted. And I think that is, frankly, a thing I hear a lot now, if I'm hearing it personally. Keep in mind, you know, know, I'm probably hearing from some people who want to tell me that because I'm the guy reporting this stuff, which seems to demand some level of serious, unprecedented accountability. Accountability which I. I think is warranted based on just like the weighing of evidence and just the scope and all the things I was just referring to. I also think, though, that everybody's realistic, that this is Adam's decision. So to me, like we could, and we do in the episode, by the way, yeah. Here is the letter of the law as described. It is direct or circumstantial. Can it be rationally explained, which is a key phrase in the cba. This is collectively bargain language again. And yet everybody knows that the law I described is not actual law. It is the judgment of one man, with some input, of course, from his legal counsel and his outside law firm. And of course, he'll talk to every owner and he'll put his finger in the wind for PR and. And all that stuff. But make no mistake, this is a decision that will be Adam Silver's tenure defining decision to date. It's kind of interesting, right? The rhyming of it.

Dave Dufour (16:03)

Yeah.

Pablo Torre (16:04)

So I don't want to be so big picture here because I'm gas bagging so much with you. And thank you for the indulgence on this, Adam. The first thing he did, Dave, was what. What was his first tenure defining act when he came in as a. Donald.

Dave Dufour (16:21)

Donald Sterling. Right.

Pablo Torre (16:23)

Yes. So Adam takes over, and the bad guy, Donald Sterling, he is ousted. And Adam gets that credit and he brings in Steve Ballmer the good guy. Good guy replaces bad guy. This same franchise, now, the rhyming of it. The guy who came in, the richest owner in all the sports, by far. The guy who could buy the rest of the NBA, basically, and, you know.

Dave Dufour (16:47)

Pay all the salaries by the league.

Pablo Torre (16:49)

If he wanted, $250 billion if you wanted to. But. But that guy now ends up threatening his same tenure if he doesn't act in a way that I think meets his responsibilities as the commissioner of the league. And so the question, again, for Commissioner Silver, who I respect, who I think is smart and I think is reactive, let's put it that way. I think he's very reactive. I think David Stern was far more proactive. I think Adam is reactive. And we're living in an era, maybe, in which that is demanded because it's the Internet, blah, blah, blah, blah. We have to. I'm sympathetic to just, like, the pressure points on a commissioner, but his job is to figure out the answer to this. And so now we have this rhyme. Right? Same franchise, same good guy. Now how do you rule against him?

Dave Dufour (17:42)

Yeah.

Sam Amick (17:43)

And.

Dave Dufour (17:43)

And Adam Silver has to deal with much more PR fallout than David Stern ever did. I mean, it's just a different media environment as well. I mean, the fact that he has to answer questions every single day. If you were going to rank the evidence, what are the top three smoking guns? Let's say the things that. That point to you, that there's impropriety happening and. And that the Clippers are circumventing the salary cap.

Pablo Torre (18:08)

Yeah. So I'll frame this by saying, as I try to buy time to rank the three things, which is very hard because I've done now four hours of reporting in terms of just podcast episodes that are, like, shaved down to as much bone as we can. I should frame this by saying my view based on the evidence, and I think this is empirical and, frankly, indisputable and inarguable, is that at this point already. Right. I took seven months to do all of this stuff to get to this point. In terms of just, like, what's here and what does it mean? I believe that this is orders of magnitude, orders of magnitude different, more severe in terms of what punishment is required than the Timberwolves. So I say that for this reason. Right. Glenn Taylor has a side deal on paper for Joe Smith. It's off to the side, and that's kind of the scheme with Steve Ballmer. What we are reporting is that this is the third investigation in 10 years. 2015. There was a punishment. 2019, there's investigation, Cardinal sin. That's Adam's framing around this, but no evidence, so no punishment. And now we have an investigation in 2025 that speaks directly to 2019. Same characters, same premise. And now the league is reckoning with, ooh, this is not merely a one off out of nowhere, this is a third investigation. So I just begin with that and then you get to what's happening. And so frankly, the number one piece of documentary indicting evidence is the Dennis Wong story. And that's because to me, it's a level of clarity that we just have not seen before in terms of the paperwork. So I don't want to even rehash that. I think if you get that intuitively, I've talked about that at length, but that's just like, you know, nine days later at a time when he had never invested in the company before. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just don't, I, frankly, I, I welcome. And we reached out to Dennis Wong, to Dennis Wong's daughter who worked that aspiration, which is a meaningful detail as well as everybody else, didn't find or hear anything resembling an explanation. And I welcome that. Can someone please explain that to me is one thing, because maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think I am. So that's just the first thing. The second thing though, I mean to just go big picture is the fact that this deal was never announced by anyone. So I'm open to all of the. Ooh, there was a secret side deal brokered by Uncle Dennis directly with Aspiration in the Clippers. No one at the Clippers knew, even though, of course, Steve Ballmer tells Ramona Shelburn that he was the one who made the introduction. And there's documented email introduction in November of 2021. At that point, we're led to believe that whatever happened was Kawhi and the sponsor Aspiration, the fact that it was never announced, and the fact that, and I'll fold in as a B bullet point A and B, that he was paid a total value of $48 million to do nothing. And in exchange, timeline wise, Steve Ballmer had previously put in $50 million and no one ever knew publicly about any of this. The question I would have is why? And I just haven't heard a good explanation for why the sponsor, the sponsor aspiration would want no one outside to be aware that there was anything resembling a deal when they already had a deal with the Clippers. So anyway, I think that's the second one. Geez. I feel like that's two and three. I think I'll put as a bronze medalist. I think I. I think it's the fact that. And maybe it's just this and Kawhi actually did nothing, right? I don't know. I just throw that in there, too.

Dave Dufour (22:18)

He did nothing.

Pablo Torre (22:19)

He actually didn't do anything. So I'm open to. You can have a sponsorship deal with a team sponsor. That is normal. It is not normal for it to be $48 million, and it is especially not normal for it to be. To do nothing with the only out, by the way, in the contract, which, again, I understand, exists in normal deals, but the only out for the, you know, aspiration side to be if Kawhi doesn't play here anymore. So anyway, in some order, I begin with just that stuff. But the Dennis Wong thing, to me, once you realize who he is and how he is the only person Ballmer trusted to own a share of his team, I. I just don't see how you explain this in a way that doesn't directly indicate that this thing is actually vast. Vast and sophisticated and purposeful and designed actually to not get caught in the way that a 2019 sequel investigation might try. And I think they accomplished that if not for the fact that, you know, the company that they partnered with to deceive the NBA ended up also scamming Steve Ballmer and lots and lots of other people. I think that's the reason why we're.

Dave Dufour (23:36)

Talking today before I let you get out of here because I'm sure that you still have more to do on this story.

Pablo Torre (23:43)

What? I'm tired, though, Dave. Oh, man.

Dave Dufour (23:45)

Like, I'm expecting two more parts to this story.

Pablo Torre (23:48)

So I got it. I got to do some non. I got to. I got to remind people that this is an unsustainable pace that I got to see by daughter that there's non NBA stuff that I got to do on.

Dave Dufour (23:58)

We had the streaker story, by the way. By the way, fun.

Pablo Torre (24:02)

We had the greatest streaker of all time as an interview that was a Tuesday episode. Followed it up with this. And we just got to get back to some other stuff for a while. But I do think that of course I'm interested if anyone out there has anything to help me with. But I also want to be clear that to my point, it's just hard to do. And that's why when people say, how could they be so stupid? I don't think they were that stupid. I think they made a stupid key mistake. But the scheme as being revealed and orchestrated and engineered was chess. It was absolute chess in a way that allows people to spin for as long as they have.

Dave Dufour (24:45)

Yeah. I mean, the plausible deniability here is through the roof.

Pablo Torre (24:48)

And.

Dave Dufour (24:49)

And if the company never fails, none of this comes to light. I mean, I don't see a scenario where anyone finds out about this if it isn't for the failure of the company and then the preceding investigation. But I want to ask you, what sort of message. Message does it send to the league and to fans if this isn't enough evidence to hammer the Clippers and to actually meet out some punishment?

Pablo Torre (25:16)

Yeah. I think that I would just quote Adam's own words. Right. This is a cardinal sin. I grew up Catholic. I was an altar server. I'm told that cardinal sins are the worst ones, maybe the worst one. I am told also that integrity of the game is paramount. I am told that when it comes to what the NBA values as an economic concern, fair play, which you can see by the way, scandals over in Europe, right. What money is not being disclosed. How are people getting advantages that give them advantages over rule abiders? There's also just the premise of precedent. Right. Like, the reason I say this is orders of magnitude beyond, is that this, if it's not dealt with at the level of. Let's just call it the highest degree of severity. Right. I think you've basically said to everybody, here is the roadmap for how to treat the most cardinal rule of the NBA as a suggestion as opposed to what feels like a rule. And so I'm just trying to see it from their perspective. Like, as a fan, which is your question, get to that. Now, I would have incredible. Incredible. What's the word I want to use to be careful. I would have incredible, incredible frustration with believing that this game is actually on the up yomp. Yeah, I mean, like, I don't know how you avoid that. I don't know how you avoid that premise that how can you trust the product if at the highest levels, the cardinal sins are being governed in this way? I don't know. What do you. What do you think on that, Dave? Because I'm curious. I don't want to be the only. I'm not the judge and jury. I just am trying to put together what logically seems correct.

Dave Dufour (27:13)

Well, this. This also I will say that in our world, the way that it works right now, we watch the rich and powerful get away with so many things and this is small potatoes because it's a basketball league. But I think that I probably echo a lot of people when I say that I'd like to see the hammer dropped on some cheaters. And it's a little bit of comeuppance. It's, it's, you know, wrong time for Steve Ballmer and the Clippers maybe to, to have done this. But if you're going to have rules in place and they can just be ignored, why can't the Memphis Grizzlies play with six guys on the court? Why can't the Golden State warriors put a four point line? If the rules are arbitrary, you no longer have the sport. So what's the point?

Pablo Torre (27:56)

You know, and I think that the. You're right to put it in 2025. Right. So think about just the larger question of credibility that any sport faces, particularly the NBA, which has a concurrent. By the way, it is kind of surreal that simultaneous to this, the NBA also announces, we're talking Thursday, yesterday, Wednesday, NBA announces also we're investigating Malik Beasley for what he did in alleged gambling context. And that's another episode of the show that we did. Right. So what I'm saying is that there are multiple parallel, almost existential questions around what is this sport? And can you trust it as a sport to put your money on, as a sport to put your money in, as a sport to spend your frankly, like, time and energy caring about, you know, the, and by the way, I have sympathy, right. Like everybody, of course, what they want is a fair product that everybody can feel comfortable and gambling on, buying tickets for buying merch, for arguing about with the knowledge that in sports, and this is, I think, your larger sort of like big picture social observation in which sports does resemble a meritocracy. I love sports because it is ostensibly a place where people need to care about fair play. Now I am not, of course, so naive as to think that it is the arbiter of, of, of fairness. There are lots of scandals all the time that we investigate, sure. But the premise of do you care enough to punish it when it's presented in front of you feels like, and not to belabor this, it feels like a very hard question for Adam Silver on one level and a remarkably easy one on another. I think the question I always ask myself as maybe Donald Sterling and the people punishing him at that point did right when Silver said or effectively facilitated the sale of the team to Steve Ballmer. I think one question he probably had was which character am I in the documentary? Right? In X number of years, when the documentary is made about this time, who am I going to be. And I urge anybody who is considering this seriously to ask themselves that question. It's the question that I ask myself when I'm making episodes. What is this going to look like in the future as well as right now? And I think on that level, I'll be blunt. I don't think it's a very hard call. But that's personally just my point of view.

Dave Dufour (30:30)

I tend to agree with you. The evidence feels pretty overwhelming. And I think Adam Silver's legacy is 100% on the line. I mean, he's been a great commissioner for the owners, and I think it's time for him to be a better commissioner for the league. And the competitive nature of the league is at risk right now if, as you said, this is the blueprint for how to do it. If you want to do it off the books and they just happen to get caught. Pablo Torre found out. Go and listen. Go and subscribe on YouTube. Pablo Torre finds out. Pablo, again, amazing work. I'm hoping that we're going to see more of this story. I'm assuming the PTFO tip line is blowing up right now.

Pablo Torre (31:12)

It is open, but I am. I am sleepy, Dave. I'm so tired. I'm so tired. Yeah, I am open to whatever comes next, but I just, I hesitate to raise expectations beyond this. I would just like people to chew on this for a while. And in the meantime, I have lots of things to say about it if you're ever interested. So thanks for having me.

Dave Dufour (31:34)

Yeah. Guys, go and check them out. We'll be back after the break with more on Kawhi and the Clippers.

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Dave Dufour (33:14)

The Kawhi Leonard Los Angeles Clippers saga continues. It's the biggest story in sports. Here to talk about it, Sam Amick, our senior national reporter at the Athletic. Sam, the board of governors met yesterday. Did anything come out of it? Anything new?

Sam Amick (33:32)

Yeah, I mean, thanks for having me, Dave, as always. You know, tough act to follow with, with you having Pablo on in more ways than one. He's on a hell of a heater here. You know, to me, the bog was certainly, from a human standpoint, you know, just insightful, enlightening to get eyes on the guy who obviously runs the entire NBA and Adam Silver and to, you know, to kind of put your, your, your humanist hat on and study his body language and study his words and study his messaging as he stood up there in front of the reporters and faced questions about this situation for the first time. You and I were chatting a little bit ago off air a little bit about how, you know, I tried to give my perspective with a column that night after the press conference. And it's probably telling that, you know, like I, I tended to gravitate towards some of the things Adam said that that might have signaled a willingness to be tough in this situation. And then, you know, had a lot of folks, colleagues and readers who didn't agree and thought that he came off as, as pretty soft, which as we know, is, has been his, his kind of reputation over the years. That's, you know, that's the substance was to at least get a sense of how he is going to play this now, you know, to drill down on that a little bit. What to me, one of the central questions here that did get highlighted was how he saw the process and, you know, the burden of guilt as it relates to, for one, is it on the Clippers to prove that they're innocent or the league to prove they're guilty? He essentially said it's on the league. And, you know, he was asked about language in the collective bargaining agreement about circumstantial evidence being enough for the league to exact penalties, which that is the case. And when given a chance to essentially say, you know, that yes, circumstantial is enough and it's not a good look, he in fact, pushed it the other way and said that, you know, we need hard evidence and let's let the investigation roll out. So little did Adam know that hours later, of course, Pablo was going to drop even more information, that makes this mountain of evidence, you know, even larger, the optics even worse, and, and the hole even deeper for the Clippers at the moment.

Dave Dufour (35:56)

I mean, look, I watched the press conference. I thought a lot of it was PR speak for a guy who, I mean, what is he going to say? There's an investigation ongoing. I don't think that there's a lot he could say, but the stuff that stood out to me, and it's in your article over at the Athletic, he said, my powers are very broad. The full range of financial penalty penalties, draft pick seeds, suspensions. I have very broad powers in these situations. Essentially saying that the buck stops with him. Now, this is a different tone than we normally hear from Adam Silver. Like, usually, like you said, his. His reputation, at least publicly, is he's very player friendly. He's obviously been owner friendly when you consider how much, I mean, how many billions he's made for these team owners over the course of his tenure. But that, to me, stood out. My powers are very bright. Is that why you felt like he was having a harder tone?

Sam Amick (36:49)

Well, I did, because it seems like it would have been. I mean, first of all, to give quick context, Vinnie Goodwill of Yahoo. Sports, who is headed to ESPN congratulating, Happy for you, buddy, is Vinny asked the question and he. It was a two part question. And you could argue that Adam actually ducked the second part of it first because he didn't answer the question about his powers. When Vinny followed up with saying, can you highlight the scope of your powers? To me, it would have been pretty easy for Adam to say, we are early in the process, let's focus on the investigation rather than even putting some of that stuff into the ether. When it comes to acknowledging drastic penalties such as draft picks being seized, you know, and all the other examples that he gave. I will admit, from a rhetoric standpoint, I might have a low bar when it comes to Adam Silver. And that's not a criticism, but David Stern was obviously known as the guy who would pound his fist every day of the week. Adam is not. But it is, you know, objectively, it's a really interesting situation to watch, how he is going to move through this controversy because, as you know, you know, at the outset of his tenure, he's barely got the job, and the Donald Sterling saga unfolds. And that one was so different in so many ways. But. But Adam obviously came down incredibly hard in that one, you know, and so he does have that in him. Again, could not be a more different situation in terms of the. The grievances. But I just thought that it did mean something that. That he was willing to acknowledge some of the. The darker possibilities here for the Clippers.

Dave Dufour (38:30)

When you're talking to people around the league, you know, the last week, what are they saying about this? I mean, is there a lot of hand waving? And this sort of stuff happens all the time? I mean, this seems pretty egregious to me. If this happens all the time, it definitely doesn't happen to this magnitude. But, you know, is it dismissive, or are people actually expecting something to come of this?

Sam Amick (38:53)

Well, those are two different questions. I'll hit the first one. You know, what are people saying? The only people that have been dismissive about this, if I'm being frank, like they have skin in the game, you know, they're. They're either on the Clipper side or not. Dismissive is the wrong word. Who indicate that, you know, see it one way where. Where they're not at fault here. You know, it's those parties. It might be somebody tied to the player community who would rather not see, you know, this type of a controversy because it could have a domino effect if they were found to be guilty. In terms of objective people across the league, the vast majority, 100%, think this, this happened. And some others simply say, you know, just showing a more measured approach. I want to wait and see what the investigation confirms. But, you know, I talked to one pretty prominent agent yesterday and asked him the same question you asked me, because you're almost trying to multiply conversations when you talk to people. And he said, oh, I haven't talked to anybody who doesn't think this happened. And, you know, then you have the second part of your question, which is what they think of what might happen, and that's a moving target right now. You know, I haven't had a ton of conversations in relation to the information this morning. You know, and to keep with the whole smoking gun, you know, kind of framing of this, it's like there was already a fair amount of smoke. And now I know this is not how teams or parties get convicted, even in sports leagues. But there is. There's a. There's an insult to our intelligence threshold with some of this material. Now, it started with the no show endorsement deal where all of us were within our right to say, stop it. Like, just tell it. Why the hell would this company, you know, not only give a $28 million deal, but add $20 million in shares on top of that? And that amount just so happens to be so close to the amount that the owner invested. So $48 million compared to $50 million. That was phase one. Well, now with Pablo's latest reporting, now you're talking about, okay, you have a company that is absolutely drowning and headed towards bankruptcy, and everybody knows it, and you have a party and Kawhi Leonard and his uncle and his representative, Dennis Robertson, upset that they're not getting paid. There's no world in which their payment should be a priority at that point in time. The company is dying. Furthermore, it makes no sense that Dennis Wong would invest nearly $2 million at that time. A, it's a bad investment. If you want to make that argument. Like, that's just. There's. It makes no sense. B, it's not enough money to save the company. So you're not. You can't go down that track. And so to have that kind of investment come in such close proximity to when Kawhi gets paid a similar amount. Yeah, the small. I mean, I don't know what, again, the involved parties want us to do here. And I also don't know what it's going to take ultimately for the league to. To kind of finally break and say, yeah, we gotta, you know, we got a hammer in here. So.

Dave Dufour (42:02)

Well, and to reiterate it, circumstantial evidence is spelled out in the cba. And if, I mean, this is beyond that. I mean, there's. There's literally a paper trail. And as you even just pointed out, you're getting to the point where if nothing comes of it, or if it's, let's say, a light punishment, you know, a draft pick or two, and a fine. Well, now you're throwing it into the face of the fan who says, well, this league isn't operating, you know, on the up and up. How is this a level playing field if you can have the richest owner in professional sports circumventing the rules and the salary cap to pay players extra. This is. The entire purpose of the salary cap, is to create a level playing field amongst the teams.

Sam Amick (42:49)

It is. And it's also, man, the landscape among the owners in the league is. Is so nuanced and so, you know, so honestly Hard to navigate when you try to figure out what his peers want. Because competitively, you hear, you know, people say that, that just on balance, that these owners are all competitive, so they'd be fine if. If one of the ones that is pretty good at it got torn down. Now, that sounds malicious, but it's. It's sports, it's competition. It is what it is. Now, that's just a general observation, but then you have the philosophy that, you know, because of Ballmer's wealth and the prospect of the NBA possibly taking him on if, if he fought it and you wind up in court, and I think we've talked about this before, then through discovery, maybe you have fear from the other owners that some of their skeletons might get exposed, you know, because of the effort to take Bomber or the Clippers down or to punish them severely. You know, so you have a lot of, A lot of mixed motivations happening among the owners. And so I don't think there's a monolith or a consensus. And, you know, again, I think the personal dynamics matter here too, Dave, and they don't lead us to a conclusion, but they, they should be highlighted. Steve Ballmer is a beloved member of the board of governors from the standpoint of the league. You know, I reported yesterday that he remains even through this situation. He is the chairman of the league's audit committee for the board of Governors. There's a, That's a hell of an irony, by the way.

Dave Dufour (44:23)

Like, was he there in a hot dog costume yesterday?

Sam Amick (44:25)

Or, you know, like, I mean, one of the gatekeepers of, of the league's financial books at a time when they are digging into his financial books, is pretty rich, you know, and that's a position that he's had for the better part of a decade since Adam Silver took over. So, you know, I mentioned All Star Weekend. You know, he paid for that immaculate arena all with his own money. He is a guy who has been a wonderful steward for the Clippers and for the NBA. And so again, to go back to the, the, the unavoidable Donald Sterling comparison, you don't have allegations of racism or inappropriate treatment to human beings. You don't have allegations of, of, of, of, you know, being thrifty and not being willing to run a team in an A level kind of way. It's quite the opposite. So as far as the personal relationships here, you know, I'm sure Adam is frustrated that, that he has to cross this bridge, but that's what the job is. And as a quick additional comment, I talked to somebody yesterday about this, and again, I'm a sucker for just trying to understand the people involved. Adam would never speak on this, but, man, I got to imagine that he's just utterly exhausted by Kawhi Leonard creating so much work for him during the course of his tenure. Because if you take a moment to tie this into the load management era and all the questions that came Adam Silver's way and the league's way regarding the way that the Clippers handled load management, it's just like Kawhi has been a thorn in his side to some degree for so long now. And. And we'll see where it all goes.

Dave Dufour (46:09)

For a guy that doesn't really play a lot, he certainly requires a lot of attention. What's the worst that could happen here? I mean, just. And we're going to spitball, but what's the worst? I mean, do you. Do you feel like the NBA could force Ballmer to sell?

Sam Amick (46:25)

I have not had people bring that prospect up. Maybe because of the kind of built in Adam Silver skepticism. The second you asked the question, my first, you know, stream of consciousness thought was the voiding of the contract is. Is certainly within CBA rules. That is one of the options. You know, you could have severe suspensions for. I mean, it does. We'll see. Like, if they do anything, does it fall on Bomber? Does it fall on Dennis Wong? Does it fall on the front office? You know, those people are all in play. Player can also be punished as well. But, you know, again, that kind of not to connect. You know, this is a loose thread, but it kind of goes back to the board of governors moment and why I decided to highlight Adam's choice to. To even mention some of those possibilities because, you know, I thought he would take a step by step approach to it and try to keep people from even assuming that penalties were coming. When you talk about the possible penalties, and I think people start to. To think that, you know, that. That one, if not more of them are coming down the pike.

Dave Dufour (47:36)

Do you think this is going to get settled before we get to training camp?

Sam Amick (47:40)

No, not even close. No.

Dave Dufour (47:42)

You think we go into the season still. Still doing this investigation?

Pablo Torre (47:46)

Yeah.

Sam Amick (47:47)

I mean, honestly, Dave, apples to oranges, but the, the Robert Sarver investigation with the Suns took a year. Think about what you just asked me. Is there any chance they make them sell the team? Those stakes could not be higher. So if, like, do I think it'll take a year? Probably not a year, but I think it's going to certainly be months. And you know, this, this law firm that they hired, they do a lot of their work, but it's, you know, everybody I've talked to, it's extremely serious law firm that digs in in a major way. Like the way Adam described them was, you know, that they, they pulled out the big guns for this one. So I don't know the exact timeline. I, I did have some people suggest that it might get sped up by the fact that because the Clippers had already been investigated by the Department of Justice regarding, you know, the, the fraud case that led to, you know, a agreement to plead guilty on the part of Joe Sandberg. They, the Clippers, it's, they've already kind of like gotten their paperwork. Whatever their case is it, it has already been at the ready because they dealt with the federal, you know, with the feds. So maybe that speeds you up a little bit. But yeah, I think we're, we're in for a long haul here.

Dave Dufour (49:05)

Yeah, the story is not going to go anywhere. Sam Amicking, go and read him over at the Athletic. He's going to be on top of this. And obviously we got basketball coming up soon. Sam, I don't know if you remember we, we cover basketball for a living.

Sam Amick (49:19)

Not get there one of these days.

Dave Dufour (49:21)

Man, not court proceedings. We got 40 days.

Sam Amick (49:23)

It would be like this.

Dave Dufour (49:25)

I know. Well, we were, we were all saying, hey, it's been a boring summer and now here's the fall and it is definitely not boring. Guys, go and follow him. And if you, if you follow him on the app, you get a notification every single time a new story posts. Thanks to Pablo Torre for joining us and going in more depth on the second Dennis and go and check out Pablo Torre finds out that's going to do it for the show. Thank you guys for listening. And we'll be back with more team previews and probably a lot more KAWHI news.

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