The David Frum Show – Episode 4: "America’s Pro-Disease Movement"
Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: Alan Bernstein, Director of Global Public Health at Oxford University
Date: April 30, 2025
Episode Overview
In “America’s Pro-Disease Movement,” David Frum examines the politicization of science and public health in the United States amidst a new, deadly measles outbreak. He is joined by Alan Bernstein, an eminent biomedical scientist, to discuss the social, political, and institutional forces undermining America’s scientific capacity, the consequences for public well-being, and what is at stake as anti-vaccine sentiment and anti-science policies take hold at the highest levels of government. The conversation spans the historical importance of science in America, the roots and impact of anti-vax movements, targeted governmental attacks on scientific infrastructure, and the future competitiveness of U.S. science.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Measles Outbreak & the Rise of Anti-Vaccine Sentiment
- Frum details the alarming spread of measles across the U.S. in early 2025, directly linking this to decreased childhood vaccination rates, which in turn arises from rising misinformation, especially within certain political communities.
- “More than 800 cases have been diagnosed in 24 states. Three people are dead, two of them unvaccinated school-aged children, one of them an unvaccinated adult.” (02:24)
- He highlights major misconceptions being propagated—such as vaccines causing autism or being more dangerous than infection—despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and identifies a disturbing partisan divide in beliefs about vaccines.
- “One third of Republicans and a quarter of Independents say it is definitely or probably true that the MMR vaccines have been proven to cause autism, compared to 1 in 10 Democrats.” (04:11)
- Frum frames this as a tragic, politically induced crisis:
- “We see again here how the MAGA cult is becoming a death cult that consumes the lives of its believers.” (04:47)
2. The Politicization of Public Health & Science
- Frum draws parallels between current vaccine resistance and earlier anti-science and anti-government attitudes, noting that both radical “nature-worship” on the left and “malign government” conspiracy theories on the right have contributed to distrust in public health.
- “The anti-vax ideology comes from some strange places. ... If you believe that nature is kind and good and benign and only wickedness is human ... nature doesn’t want you to live and rejoice. Nature is utterly indifferent.” (08:25)
- “There are a lot of fraudsters out there. And they have more ways of reaching people than ever before.” (09:53)
- He calls for clarity and urgency in public health messaging and accountability for parents who choose not to vaccinate their children.
- “It is your duty as a parent to see that your child is vaccinated against preventable disease. And if your children are unvaccinated, you have failed in your duty as a parent.” (06:17)
3. Systematic Attacks on Scientific Institutions
- Bernstein provides historical context for America’s scientific success, tracing it to post-WWII investment and seeing the destruction of this infrastructure as unprecedented and self-destructive.
- “If you look at the growth of the American economy and the growth of American well-being ... anywhere between 20 to 40 to 50% … of growth in GDP … was due to science and innovation. Today, as we’re witnessing kind of the destruction of the institutions behind American science, it’s hard to believe that any administration would do this.” (13:15)
- The Trump administration’s policies—budget cuts, personnel reductions, immigration pressures, and interference in university and federal science programs—are discussed as multiple, simultaneous attacks on the pillars of U.S. scientific leadership.
- “It’s hard to overstate how serious this is.” (16:45)
- The chilling effect is palpable even at wealthy institutions like Stanford, foreshadowing a possible exodus of talent.
- Immigration crackdown: America’s tradition of attracting global talent is being reversed—
- “That pipeline of talent from abroad has probably shut down completely.” (20:56)
- Bernstein emphasizes other nations, especially in Europe and China, stand ready to reap the benefits of American scientific decline.
4. Infectious Disease & the Vaccine Backlash
- The guest situates the measles crisis within both a golden age for vaccine science and a strange era of public rejection of progress.
- “We are in a golden age in biomedical research ... It’s hard to estimate the number of lives that have been saved ... hundreds of millions ... Smallpox ... has been eradicated. ... A young physician today has never seen smallpox, has never seen polio, has never seen measles.” (21:36)
- Yet, government policy is shifting toward skepticism and unfounded "investigations" into proven vaccines, led by figures like Robert Kennedy Jr.
- The challenge: Negative side effects of vaccines, mostly mild, are more visible than the unseen lives saved; this cognitive bias is compounded by political rhetoric and media distortion.
5. The COVID Legacy, Science Communication, and Political Distortion
- Mistakes, humility, and malice: The COVID-19 pandemic response was imperfect, and scientists acknowledge poor communication and overconfidence. But Frum and Bernstein agree the capacity of the public to understand scientific uncertainty was underestimated, and political actors weaponized every change in guidance.
- “The great strength of science is that it’s not ideological … when scientists change their mind, ... that’s the strength of science, not the weakness.” (29:19)
- The right-wing narrative has made science itself a matter of identity and ideology, with lethal consequences.
6. The Recovery Question: Can U.S. Scientific Leadership Rebound?
- Frum asks: “How powerful is the ‘stop’ button for science? … If you press ‘start’ four years from now, how quickly does the ignition resume after the stop button has been pressed today?” (30:09)
- Bernstein highlights the fragility of institutional memory and warns that loss of talent and momentum could take a long time to repair, if ever:
- “Institutions take longer to recover than individuals. … Talent can move.” (30:30)
- International competitors are poised to benefit:
- “China is investing huge, huge amounts ... if one thinks about the standoffs between these two great superpowers ... the United States attacking one of its most powerful weapons in the current 21st-century war between countries, and the Chinese investing. Now, which one do you think is right?” (32:13)
7. The Trump Administration’s Defense – Is It Just "Anti-Wokeness"?
- Frum paraphrases the probable Trump narrative: “We're not waging a war on science ... we're waging a war on DEI ... on climate science ... on what we think is fraudulent.”
- Bernstein concedes universities aren’t perfect but defends academic freedom as essential to scientific progress:
- “The role of acquiring new knowledge is to challenge the status quo ... If you’re just going to reaffirm the status quo, you don’t need a university ... There needs to be an understanding on the basis of our political leaders that dissent ... can be uncomfortable. And that is the role of the universities.” (34:15)
8. What’s at Stake: Biomedical Breakthroughs and Human Hope
- Bernstein avoids utopian predictions but testifies to the real progress in cancer, mental illness, and vaccine research, warning that disrupting this pipeline would be tragic:
- “If you have chronic myelogenous leukemia, you’ll be treated with Gleevec ... these are all based on information that’s come out over the last dozen years … To cut that off would be just a shame. Just a shame.” (35:54)
- Frum, closing, mourns the moral and civic cost: those who offer “the most magnificent achievements of human civilization” are being demonized and undermined.
Memorable Quotes & Moments
-
On Vaccine Refusal and Parental Duty:
“And if your children are unvaccinated, you have failed in your duty as a parent.”
—David Frum (06:17) -
On Weaponized Ignorance:
“We see again here how the MAGA cult is becoming a death cult that consumes the lives of its believers.”
—David Frum (04:47) -
On Science Under Attack:
“It’s hard to overstate how serious this is.”
—Alan Bernstein (16:45) -
On Migration of Talent:
“That pipeline of talent from abroad has probably shut down completely.”
—Alan Bernstein (20:56) -
On Politics and Public Health:
“It’s remarkable that whether you wore a mask or not or took a vaccine or not ... depended on the political party you belong to ... No one would believe you.”
—Alan Bernstein (26:09) -
On Science as a Self-Correcting Process:
“If [scientists] said the same thing all the way through, they’d be priests, not scientists.”
—David Frum (28:39) -
On Institutional Recovery:
“Institutions take longer to recover than individuals ... Talent can move.”
—Alan Bernstein (30:41) -
On Academic Freedom:
“The great strength of universities ... is to challenge the status quo ... Political leaders have to allow for this freedom.”
—Alan Bernstein (34:15) -
On Biomedical Progress:
“If you have chronic myelogenous leukemia, you’ll be treated with Gleevec ... all based on information that’s come out over the last dozen years … To cut that off would be just a shame.”
—Alan Bernstein (35:54)
Important Timestamps
- Frum’s introduction and setup: 01:09–12:16
- Measles outbreak statistics / vaccine myths: 02:16–04:44
- Political divide on vaccines: 04:44–05:33
- Moral clarity and parental responsibility: 06:14–07:40
- Sources of anti-vax belief – nature/myth/government: 08:25–09:53
- Science and society: Why America’s investment mattered: 13:15–14:58
- Institutional breakdowns described: 15:03–17:44
- Stanford circles the wagons / universities under siege: 15:03–16:47
- Immigration and the loss of the talent pipeline: 18:33–20:56
- Direct link between government policy, outbreaks: 20:56–21:36
- Golden age of biomedicine contrasted with rejection: 21:36–24:15
- Public perception, risk, and vaccine “unseen” success: 24:15–25:32
- COVID response, political sorting, and “acceptable death”: 25:32–26:37
- Scientists’ communications failures, humility needed: 26:09–28:09
- Why scientific change signals trustworthiness, not confusion: 28:09–29:19
- Can science rebound? Talent exodus and future of innovation: 30:09–33:24
- Is this just about ‘wokeness’? Academic dissent as necessity: 33:24–35:39
- How close are cures for major diseases? Biomedical optimism: 35:39–38:52
Closing (Q&A / Moral Note)
- Frum answers listener questions about the codification of democratic norms, the risks to future U.S. elections, and how teachers can instill hope in civics education.
- “This is a moment where their country really needs them and it’s an honor and a privilege to be alive at a time when your country needs you.” (45:22)
Summary Takeaways
This episode is a powerful, unvarnished appraisal of how politicized misinformation and anti-science governance risk not only public health but also America’s hard-earned position as a scientific innovator. Frum and Bernstein blend history, policy, and human stories to illustrate what is being lost—not just to Americans, but to the world—if science continues to be treated as a political enemy rather than a collective inheritance. The message is urgent: reclaiming truth, respecting expertise, and defending scientific freedom are essential acts of civic duty in the 21st century.
For those new to the episode:
Expect a direct, fact-rich, and impassioned conversation—at once a warning, an education, and a call to action for anyone who cares about the survival of democracy through the continued vitality of science.