The David Frum Show – Bonus Episode: How Is Trump Planning to ‘Run’ Venezuela?

Air Date: January 3, 2026
Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: Anne Applebaum (journalist and expert on Venezuela and democracy)

Episode Overview

In this urgent bonus episode, David Frum discusses the shocking overnight U.S. apprehension of Venezuelan dictator Nicolás Maduro with journalist Anne Applebaum. The pair dissect what this unprecedented, unilateral action signals about Trump’s intentions for Venezuela and for U.S. foreign policy more broadly. The conversation analyzes the collapse of democratic processes in Venezuela, the domestic political purposes behind Trump’s intervention, fears over the return of 19th-century spheres of influence, and the potentially disastrous consequences for American democracy at home and alliances abroad.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Context: U.S. Arrests Maduro, Trump Says “We’ll Run Venezuela”

• Frum sets the stage: U.S. Armed Forces apprehended Nicolás Maduro and his wife to stand trial in the U.S. for drug trafficking and other charges ([00:11]).
• Shocking for its lack of international support, legal legitimacy, or Congressional authorization.
• Trump’s press conference hints at militarism and imperial control; “America is going to run Venezuela” remains vague, raising more questions than answers ([01:11]).

Notable Quote:

“America is going to run Venezuela. What that can mean… not clear to me how we would run Venezuela.” – Anne Applebaum ([01:11])

The 2024 Venezuelan Election and the Opposition’s Struggle

• Maduro regime’s deeply unpopular, blocked Nobel Peace Prize winner Maria Corina Machado from running.
• Edmundo González, a former diplomat, won the vote, but the regime violently suppressed his victory ([01:11]).
• Venezuelans meticulously collected and preserved tallies to prove opposition victory, but regime refused transfer of power.
• Mass exodus: millions have fled, many to the U.S., where they are now maligned and mistreated.

Trump’s Motivations: Domestic Politics Above All

• Trump’s narrative is about U.S. glory, not democracy or Venezuelan wellbeing.
• The action taken “entirely alone, without any regional support… any international legitimacy, without action of Congress” ([02:54]).
• Immigration rhetoric: vilification of Venezuelan refugees, (e.g., “Venezuela had sent its criminals… emptied out its insane asylums”—a baseless claim) ([04:02]).

Notable Quote:

“The smearing of Venezuelans has been one of the ugliest things that this regime has done… All of the narrative… has been about the glory of the United States, the reconquest of the Western Hemisphere.” – Anne Applebaum ([04:02])

Lack of Transparency, Strategy, and Coalition-Building

• Frum and Applebaum are sharply critical of the lack of justification, planning, or outreach (even to Congress or allies).
• “Is it an invasion? Is it a military event?… The failure to justify it to the American people, the failure to sell it, the failure to explain it…” ([07:03]).

Notable Quote:

“It’s a kind of breakthrough moment… to do so without any justification, without any explanation, without any support in Congress or any attempt to get it… it’s all very strange.” – Anne Applebaum ([07:03])

Spheres of Influence: Return to 19th Century Great Power Politics

• Frum suspects a de facto deal: U.S. will dominate the Western Hemisphere if Russia is granted Ukraine and China its sphere ([09:51]).
• Applebaum warns: this divides the world into spheres, exposes former U.S. allies, and “makes violence more common” ([11:00]).
• This is a dramatic break from the principle that the U.S. stands for universal human freedoms and democracy for all—not just for U.S. advantage.

Notable Quote:

“It really creates the prospect for a reordered world, one in which violence becomes much more common and the use of military power by big countries against smaller ones becomes normalized.” – Anne Applebaum ([11:00])

“It’s a doctrine of American weakness and retreat.” – David Frum ([13:44])

The Domestic Price: Retreat from Democracy at Home

• History lesson: U.S. sorely needed to live its professed values abroad in order to fight fascism and communism at home (references to Kennedy’s Civil Rights speech) ([16:41]).
• If America abandons idealism abroad, it invites a return to “an older way of running the country and older ideas about race and hierarchy” at home ([18:01]).

Notable Quote:

“To win the Cold War, [the U.S.] became a more perfect democracy at home. If… gives up on that, the way is set to unravel all those changes that happened… between the 1930s and the 1960s.” – David Frum ([16:41])

Trump, Putin, Oil, and the Shadow of Dirty Deals

• Discussion of Trump’s admiration for Putin, long-standing Russia ties, and the unaccounted-for motivations in the Venezuela gambit ([19:13]).
• Speculation that Maduro’s handover could be part of a backroom arrangement—possibly even with Russian or Chinese input ([19:22]).
• U.S. hypocrisy: recent pardon of the former president of Honduras, also convicted of drug trafficking, raises questions about consistency ([23:37]).

What Should U.S. Democrats Do?

• Frum warns that opposition to Trumpian interventionism must not lapse into “it’s none of our business” isolationism ([20:18]).
• Applebaum agrees: U.S. always has influence, whether it wants to or not. Even non-action shapes outcomes ([21:47]).
• Emphasize need for collective, multilateral, and democratic approaches—not imperialism, but not passivity either.

Notable Quote:

“We live by ourselves… in a bubble and we don’t influence anybody else is also wrong.” – Anne Applebaum ([21:47])

The Ripple Effects: Cuba and Beyond

• Secretary of State Marco Rubio brings Cuba into the conversation—hopes the fall of Maduro will spark change in Cuba, but Applebaum is skeptical about the “domino theory” ([27:10]).
• “Seems very unlikely that President Trump cares one way or the other about Cuba.” – Anne Applebaum ([28:48])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• U.S. Captures Maduro & Trump’s Vague Plans: [00:11]–[02:54]
• 2024 Venezuelan Elections and Repression: [01:11]–[02:54]
• Trump’s Domestic Political Motivation & Anti-Immigrant Rhetoric: [02:54]–[04:02]
• Critique of Unilateralism & Lack of Strategy: [07:03]–[09:51]
• Spheres of Influence and Global Order: [09:51]–[14:39]
• Historical Lessons: Foreign Policy and Domestic Democracy: [16:41]–[19:13]
• Trump’s Ties to Putin and Questions about Dirty Deals: [19:13]–[24:31]
• Debate Over Proper Democratic Response: [20:18]–[23:37]
• Cuba Connection and Rubio’s Domino Hope: [27:10]–[28:48]

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “America is going to run Venezuela. What that can mean… not clear to me.” – Anne Applebaum ([01:11])
• “The smearing of Venezuelans has been one of the ugliest things that this regime has done.” – Anne Applebaum ([04:02])
• “It’s a kind of breakthrough moment… all very strange.” – Anne Applebaum ([07:03])
• “It really creates the prospect for a reordered world, one in which violence becomes much more common.” – Anne Applebaum ([11:00])
• “It’s a doctrine of American weakness and retreat.” – David Frum ([13:44])
• “To win the Cold War, [the U.S.] became a more perfect democracy at home…” – David Frum ([16:41])
• “We live by ourselves… in a bubble and we don’t influence anybody else is also wrong.” – Anne Applebaum ([21:47])
• “Seems very unlikely that President Trump cares one way or the other about Cuba.” – Anne Applebaum ([28:48])

Tone and Style

The conversation is sober, urgent, and deeply analytical, blending historical perspective and contemporary critique. Both speakers balance grave concern for global democratic norms with a realism about political motivations and the dangerous precedent of Trump’s newest foreign policy move.

Summary for Non-Listeners

David Frum and Anne Applebaum break down the latest U.S. intervention in Venezuela, exploring Trump’s ambiguous “running” of the country, the dangers of 19th-century-style “spheres of influence,” and the corrosive impact on American values at home and abroad. They warn against both imperial overreach and isolationism, stressing the importance of U.S. credibility, alliances, and moral leadership. Throughout, they remind listeners that defending democracy requires clarity of purpose, honesty with allies, and faith in universal human rights.