The David Frum Show — "Bring Back High-Stakes School Testing"
Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: Margaret Spellings (former U.S. Secretary of Education, Bipartisan Policy Center President & CEO)
Date: October 8, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode addresses the sharp decline in U.S. student achievement, exploring the causes and solutions with a focus on standardized testing. David Frum and Margaret Spellings debate whether America should revive high-stakes accountability measures to restore educational progress and defend democratic values dependent on a well-informed citizenry. The conversation traces the trajectory from the success of the No Child Left Behind era, through policy changes and COVID disruptions, to the current educational crisis. The episode concludes with actionable advice for parents and voters amid contentious political debates on education.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Decline in U.S. Student Achievement

• Trends Over Two Decades ([11:02]–[14:08])
  • Early 2000s: Steady improvement in reading and math, especially under No Child Left Behind (NCLB).
  • Since ~2012–2014: Stagnation and recent decline, pre-dating COVID-19.
  • COVID greatly worsened the situation but was not the primary cause of decline.
• Margaret Spellings:

  "We stopped paying attention to what I call the fine print of school accountability... states really walked back on the muscle of accountability, the muscle of assessment, transparency, and consequences for failure." ([11:45])

Policy Shifts & Consequences

• 2015 Law Change ([12:56]–[14:08])
  • Rewrite of NCLB loosened federal requirements.
  • States lowered standards, manipulated passing grades, and excluded groups to inflate results.
• Loss of Accountability’s Impact:

  "All the various pieces and parts of an accountability system started to get walked back, and then... we started to see the effects of that—drifting and flattening and then declining student achievement." ([13:15])

COVID’s Educational Impact

• What Changed During the Pandemic? ([14:29]–[15:31])
  • Unprepared shift to online learning, prolonged school absences, increased role for parents.
  • Massive federal funding for recovery, little result.
• Wasted Opportunity:

  "The net effect... bags and bags of free money... buckets, virtually no return on those dollars. So reduced accountability, bad inputs, kids not in school, educators not maximizing technology, disengagement, mental health, all of that stew... lots of money that was wasted." ([15:47])

Lessons from Success Stories

• Mississippi (and Alabama/Louisiana) as Models ([16:41]–[18:38])
  • Adopted research-based, phonics-centered reading programs with "fidelity."
  • Strong leadership and dogged implementation key to improvement.
• On why ‘red states’ may move faster:

  "Some of the red states have been more eager and more able to implement some of these things more quickly, often because they don't have the vigorous union influence..." ([18:38])

Testing, Accountability, and Their Critics

• Why Educators Resist Testing ([20:41]–[21:45])
  • Resistance rooted in adult accountability.
  • Myth of testing ‘narrowing’ curriculum—other subjects like art/music lost for other reasons.
• Spellings on Accountability’s Importance:

  "We just have to stay laser focused on especially these basic skills of reading and math." ([20:45])

Socioeconomic Justifications & Migration

• Testing vs. Poverty Argument ([19:22]–[20:20])
  • "We often think poverty is the thing that's holding us back. Well, education is the thing that catapults us further..." ([19:22])
  • Disruption from economic crises and migration affects schools, but accountability still key.
• Lowered Standards:

  "We've lowered our expectations for every kid... I'm not sure people believe [every child should get what they need in public schools] anymore, and our strategy now is get a voucher, get the hell out." ([23:02])

Vouchers, Choice, and Federal Role

• Vouchers Need Accountability ([24:38]–[25:28])
  • Vouchers should not excuse students from testing.
  • Charters have accountability—so should all recipients of public funds.
• Federal Department of Education's Value: ([30:00]–[31:13])
  • Leader in access and opportunity, Pell grants.
  • Civil rights imperative: "kept us honest" especially in states with powerful unions.
• On removing accountability:

  "[There's] a march towards eliminating the things that diagnose a problem that people fully know and understand we have." ([29:02])

Professional School Testing and Broader Trends

• Testing Under Threat Beyond K12 ([25:28]–[27:54])
  • Pushes to remove MCAT, LSAT, bar exam, and standardized admissions testing.
  • Standardized testing as a fairer alternative vs. faculty whim or in-group word-of-mouth.
• Alternatives to Testing:

  "If you think standardized testing does [exclude], wait till you hear how people say, 'well, you can just tell he's a good doctor. Just look at him. He looks like a doctor.'" ([27:03])

The 'Fun' Factor in Teaching

• Does testing make teaching less fun? ([31:13]–[33:08])
  • Spellings: Sequential, research-based instruction may be less "fun" than improvisational teaching but is more effective.
  • "Spray and pray" methods are unreliable in outcomes.
• Technology’s Double-Edged Sword:
  • Cautious optimism about tech as a tool, but hurt by misuse (e.g., phones in class).
  • Decline in reading competencies baked in by years of weak standards and COVID.

Political & Cultural Implications

• Connection Between Education and Democracy ([40:07]–[41:12])
  • Education and democracy are "the same idea."
  • If you devalue education, you also devalue citizenship.
• Individual vs. Collective Outcomes:

  "Your underperforming child who is falling short of his or her potential is also my problem. And anybody can have a special needs child." ([43:30])

  • Social consequences loom if generations are "written off."

Advice for Parents and Voters

• What Should Voters Ask Education Candidates? ([41:12]–[43:30])
  • Know your local data on achievement and resource use.
  • Hold officials accountable not for slogans, but for results and bipartisan cooperation.
  • Ask about recovery from COVID, use of federal funds, graduation rates, progress for all groups.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Margaret Spellings:

  "When we were paying attention to the achievement gaps, when we were measuring what we said were our priorities... we were getting results. And then we took our foot off the gas." ([11:45])

• On education as an equalizer:

  "Education is the thing that catapults us further... if we're waiting for poverty to be resolved before we attend to education, that won't happen." ([19:22])

• On resistance to testing:

  "It leads to accountability for grownups. None of us like that particularly... we can't use that as an excuse to shirk from the work." ([20:45])

• On curriculum narrowing:

  "It's not against the law to improve student achievement or to include extracurricular activities... You could even maybe reduce football." ([21:39])

• On technology and reading loss:

  "Kids can't read well enough. Why is that? We took our foot off the gas and we're paying the price for, you know, 10 years ago." ([33:39])

• On writing off a generation:

  "They're 50, 60, 70, 80 years from now, there are going to be Americans whose lives were wrecked because they were on the cusp of the decision, 'should I finish high school or should I leave in grade 10?' And they're going to be with us for a long time..." ([34:23])

• On the purpose of education and democracy:

  "If you don't educate, you don't have citizens. And a society that is disvaluing citizenship is a society that's disvaluing education." ([40:07])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction, context, and opening reflections on sycophancy: [01:11]–[10:06]
• The rise and fall of U.S. student achievement: [11:02]–[14:08]
• Policy changes and decline analysis: [12:56]–[16:41]
• COVID’s impact and the failure of the recovery: [14:29]–[16:41]
• Success stories in specific states: [16:41]–[18:38]
• Critiques of testing and accountability: [20:41]–[21:45]
• Professional school exams and losing confidence in standardized tests: [25:28]–[28:22]
• The challenge and purpose of teaching: [31:13]–[33:08]
• Technology, reading loss, and cohort effects: [33:08]–[34:23]
• Long-term damage of educational lapses: [34:23]–[35:21]
• Education, public goods, and the fate of democracy: [40:07]–[41:12]
• Practical advice for parents, voters, and communities: [41:12]–[43:30]

Tone & Style

The conversation is frank, data-driven, occasionally wry (especially regarding political and cultural critiques), and ultimately urgent. Spellings is direct and persistent in her focus on accountability, research, and fidelity of implementation, while Frum weaves the educational crisis into broader anxieties about citizenship and democracy.

Bottom Line Takeaways

• The decline in U.S. educational achievement is rooted in policy inertia, weakened accountability, and was severely accelerated by COVID—long before which the system was already faltering.
• High-stakes testing and rigorous, research-based teaching are essential for reversing this decline.
• The crisis is not just technical or pedagogical but reflects—and compounds—broader democratic and civic challenges.
• Parents and voters are urged to demand transparency, sustained recovery, and bipartisan leadership from school, district, and national leaders.

This summary provides a detailed roadmap for listeners seeking to understand the U.S. educational crisis, the arguments for resuming strong accountability via testing, and the stakes for American democracy.