The David Frum Show
Episode: J. D. Vance’s Bargain With the Devil
Date: May 28, 2025
Host: David Frum
Guest: George Packer (Writer, The Atlantic)
Overview
This episode centers on the profile and political transformation of Vice President J.D. Vance, as explored in George Packer's recent Atlantic article, The Talented Mr. Vance. Frum and Packer dig into the moral and literary dimensions of Vance's choices, his shift from introspective critic to chief defender of MAGA populism, and what his rise reveals about contemporary American politics and the corrosion of democratic ideals. The first portion of the episode sees Frum deliver a blistering monologue on corruption in Donald Trump's administration, setting the tone for a searching discussion about character, ambition, and the costs of loyalty.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Memorial Day, American Values, and Trump-Era Corruption
[00:00–10:41]
- Reflection on Memorial Day: Frum frames the episode by honoring the sacrifices of American service members, contrasting this with his view of the Trump administration's "monstrous display of self-service."
- Trump's Meme Coin Scandal: Frum condemns President Trump’s sale of worthless meme coins for access, noting the involvement of foreign nationals and the opacity around purchasers.
- “They are just ways for people who want access to buy it and buy it directly from the president himself and his family and his companies.” (Frum, 03:10)
- Vietnamese Golf Course Deal: Details government bending laws for Trump's business interests, with explicit backing from the White House.
- Historical Comparisons: Frum argues Trump’s corruption dwarfs scandals such as Watergate and Teapot Dome—noting Nixon, Grant, and Harding were not personally enriched by their scandals.
- “What is happening with Donald Trump cannot be compared... It’s more like something from a post-Soviet republic… an orgy of extortion and corruption unlike anything ever seen before in this country.” (Frum, 06:55)
- Corruption as Extortion: Frum frames Trump’s conduct not as bribery (passive), but active extortion, with "billions of dollars from people who are seeking favor" via direct payment schemes.
- “This isn’t bribery. This is extortion… What we are seeing here is extortion on a kind of scale, again, unlike anything in American history.” (Frum, 08:08)
2. J.D. Vance: Character, Rise, and the Literary Analogy
[10:41–17:09]
- Vance’s Complex Backstory: Frum and Packer juxtapose Vance's complex personal journey (from poverty to Ivy League to MAGA) against Trump's simpler, predatory persona.
- “Great villains require more of a backstory… There’s something kind of Luciferian about J.D. Vance.” (Frum, 12:29)
- The ‘Lucifer’ Analogy: Frum posits that Vance’s betrayal is epic—he knowingly chose “wrong” for power.
- Packer nuances: “I am not certain that he knows that he chose wrong… I think he convinced himself… that what his people… needed was Trump’s policies.” (Packer, 14:30)
- The ‘Talented Mr. Ripley’ Reference: The piece’s title hints at Vance as a shape-shifter—but is he hollow, or does some reflective core remain?
- Packer: “I think maybe compared to the original, there’s more there... I would analogize him to Nixon.” (Packer, 18:16)
3. Whose America? Vance’s Conception of ‘His People’
[18:48–23:11]
- Exclusionary Vision: Vance sees himself as Vice President of “his people” (working-class whites), not all Americans—contrasting with Obama’s inclusive stance.
- “It was a little bit of a disturbing image to me. That’s America. So it’s soil. In fact, it’s blood and soil.” (Packer, 20:20)
- Instrumentality of ‘My People’: Packer alleges Vance uses class grievance and fabricates stories (e.g., about Haitian immigrants) because “anything can be justified in the name of the mistreated working class.”
- Elite Swap: Despite anti-elite rhetoric, Vance has “swapped one set of elites for another.” He now serves interests of tech billionaires (Thiel, Musk) and far-right media.
- “It’s a bit rich to say, yeah, we’re fighting on behalf of ‘my people’ against the elites.” (Packer, 22:41)
4. Vance’s Political Evolution and Policies
[23:11–29:25]
- Technocrat to Populist: Frum recalls Vance’s early intentions to devise practical solutions; claims he ultimately couldn’t offer real help—he is more interested in personal narrative and grievance.
- “He couldn’t write the other book. I think he actually didn’t have any ideas about what to do for Ohio and rural America.” (Frum, 24:51)
- The Nature of Vance’s Beliefs: Packer suggests Vance may genuinely believe in policies like tariffs, mass deportation, and “de-Baathification” of the civil service—even if these serve elites rather than working-class interests.
- “His rise coincides with our decline… In order to succeed… he had to become the figure that he is.” (Packer, 27:24)
- Performing Loyalty to Trump: Vance now professes unqualified fealty, forsaking past criticisms—even privately comparing Trump to “America’s Hitler” before his transformation.
5. Blood, Soil, and Family: A Narrowing American Story
[29:25–33:03]
- Vance’s ‘Blood and Soil’ Speech: Frum criticizes Vance for focusing on ancestral rootedness and ignoring the broader, pluralistic American experience—including his own children’s multicultural heritage.
- “Writing the newcomer out of the American story is un-American… There’s something… unfatherly about writing your children’s mother out of your children’s life story.” (Frum, 30:32)
- Treatment of Family Diversity: Packer notes that while Vance’s family honors both Catholic and Hindu traditions, his public vision remains narrowly exclusionary, omitting immigrants’ role in America.
6. Does Character Matter? The Functionalist View
[33:03–35:05]
- Judging Character vs. Actions: Frum raises the functionalist argument: perhaps it doesn’t matter who Vance “really is”—what matters are the authoritarian results and policies taking hold.
- The administration is systematically disempowering traditional Republicans and empowering the Vance/Musk/Carlson “predatory great power” vision: America untethered from ideals.
7. Vance’s Ideology and Implications for America
[35:05–41:33]
- Moral Justification for Hardline Policies: Packer notes Vance’s readiness to justify nearly any policy by invoking the cause of “his oppressed,” blending moral rhetoric, Catholicism, and class war into an exclusionary project.
- “Once you’ve decided that’s your mission, then there really isn’t much of a limit because you have a moral justification in your own mind.” (Packer, 36:03)
- Contrast with Trump: Vance lacks Trump’s “schlumperai” (slovenliness/chaos) and is instead a disciplined ideologue, making him potentially more dangerous and less easily distracted or restrained.
- “There’s no slovenliness with J.D. Vance. He is an ideologue… He may be more than a believer, and that his people serve as a justification for the ideologue.” (Frum, 38:28)
- Negativity-Driven Ideology: Packer sees Vance’s driving force as “malignant impulse to hurt, to punish”—defined more by enemies than by any positive vision.
8. Personal Reflections & Close
[41:33–end]
- Reflection on Colleague Relationships: Packer recounts the parallel journeys of himself and Frum—from campus rivalry (left v. right) to center-ground colleagues, commending Frum for his principled stands in a shifting party.
- “You have made a very… courageous journey in which you were alone… And you’ve made a new one, which is as a truth teller.” (Packer, 42:28)
- Coda on Zbigniew Brzezinski (Book Review): Frum closes with thoughts on Edward Luce’s new biography of Brzezinski, contrasting his faith in American ideals with Henry Kissinger’s pessimism.
- “Brzezinski… never stopped believing in the possibility of America. He believed that America could and would prevail against enemies internal and external. I think we need a little of that faith, too.” (Frum, 47:02)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- “Donald Trump’s corruption cannot be compared to anything in American history. It’s more like something from a post-Soviet republic or a postcolonial African state.” — David Frum [06:55]
- “I’m not certain that he knows that he chose wrong. I think he convinced himself… It’s very hard to live with yourself if you know you’ve chosen wrong, day after day.” — George Packer [14:30]
- “He has swapped one set of elites for another… It’s a bit rich to say, yeah, we’re fighting on behalf of my people against the elites.” — George Packer [22:41]
- “He couldn’t write the other book. I think he actually didn’t have any ideas about what to do for Ohio and rural America.” — David Frum [24:51]
- “His trajectory is… fascinating… At every step that he has risen, America has declined a little more. His rise coincides with our decline and in a way, is an emblem of our decline.” — George Packer [27:24]
- “Vance may be the most ideological person in one of the two top jobs… He is disciplined and intelligent and hardworking and actually has thought through who he hates and why.” — George Packer [39:15]
- “Writing the newcomer out of the American story is un-American… There’s something… unfatherly about writing your children’s mother out of your children’s life story.” — David Frum [30:32]
- “You have made a very… courageous journey in which you were alone… And you’ve made a new one, which is as a truth teller.” — George Packer [42:28]
- “Brzezinski… never stopped believing in the possibility of America. He believed that America could and would prevail against enemies internal and external. I think we need a little of that faith, too.” — David Frum [47:02]
Timestamps of Important Segments
- 00:00–10:41 — Frum’s monologue: Memorial Day, Trump corruption, meme coin scandal, historical comparisons
- 10:41–17:09 — Introduction of George Packer; Vance’s literary/mythic comparison; Lucifer and Ripley analogies
- 17:09–23:11 — Vance’s transformation: empathy, introspection, and shifting "elites"
- 23:11–29:25 — Vance’s evolution: from would-be technocrat to grievance populist; practical policy void
- 29:25–33:03 — Family, nativism, and the exclusionary narrative
- 33:03–35:05 — Character vs. function in politics; authoritarian rise
- 35:05–41:33 — Vance as ideologue; negativity as motivating force; contrast with Trump’s chaos
- 41:33–43:33 — Personal reflections on journalism, morality, and history
- 43:33–end — Book segment: Brzezinski vs. Kissinger, optimism for America's future
Conclusion
This episode offers an incisive, at times chilling, narrative about J.D. Vance’s ascent and what it signals for the future of American democracy. Through rigorous historical comparison, literary metaphor, and personal recollection, Frum and Packer probe the morality and motivations at the heart of power—and invite listeners to reckon with what is required to defend a pluralistic, hopeful American idea in an age of cynicism and self-dealing.