The David Frum Show

Episode: My Friend, Bill Buckley

Date: November 26, 2025
Host: David Frum
Guest: Sam Tanenhaus

Overview

This episode honors the 100th birthday of William F. Buckley, Jr.—founder of modern American conservatism—focusing on his legacy, influence, and personal impact on both society and the show's participants. David Frum is joined by Sam Tanenhaus, acclaimed biographer of Buckley, for an intimate discussion, delving deep beyond the public persona, exploring the nuances of Buckley's character, evolution, and the transformation of conservatism in America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Legacy and Failure of "The Department of Government Efficiency" (DOGE) (00:11–11:50)

• Frum briefly opens on the expiry of DOGE, a Trump-era "department" meant to cut government spending, now seen as a fiasco:
  • "DOGE was never really a department of Government. It had a kind of extralegal existence. It was a creature of the president." (01:00)
• Reasons for its failure:
  • Arrogance and Lack of Understanding: Leaders like Elon Musk treated complex governance as a coding problem, with little subject-matter expertise.
  • Misdiagnosis: Targeted fraud/inefficiency, ignoring reality that most spending goes to entitlement programs and defense.
  • Illegality: Attempted to revoke Congress-approved and president-signed spending — overstepping legal rights.
• Enduring Damage:
  • Harm to scientific, biomedical, and climate research capabilities.
  • Weakened U.S. international voice (Voice of America, foreign aid).
  • Ongoing difficulty restoring the IRS and SEC's abilities, post-cuts—benefiting the very wealthy: "It is much easier to cheat on your taxes. It's much easier to defraud your investors... post-DOGE than it was before." (09:56)

2. Remembering Bill Buckley: The Man and his Movement (11:58–49:29)

Setting the Stage: Buckley's Funeral and the Limbaugh Transition

(12:00–14:51)

• Frum recalls Buckley's 2008 funeral. Rush Limbaugh, though Buckley's media heir, was denied the role of chief eulogist—marking a symbolic shift in the conservative movement.
  • "There was kind of an incident where Rush Limbaugh had lobbied very hard to be the chief eulogist and had been turned down. I found something symbolic." (12:52)
• Tanenhaus situates this as signaling conservatism’s move from Buckley’s intellectual model to a more combative, populist media style.

Personal Anecdotes: National Review and Faith

(14:51–20:34)

• The story of Buckley's search for a new National Review editor (1990s). Both Frum and David Brooks considered, but Buckley preferred a "believing Christian" with American roots—cultural fit over talent.
  • Notable Quote:

    "The next editor of the magazine should be a believing Christian and also he shouldn't come from Canada." (17:11, Buckley as quoted by Tanenhaus)

• Frum's response: He understood and respected Buckley’s belief that National Review was, at its core, a Christian (specifically Catholic) enterprise.

Conservatism, Change, and Intellectual Evolution

(20:34–29:56)

• Reflection on Buckley’s relationship to anti-Semitism and racism: early National Review’s problematic articles, including criticism of Israel's Eichmann abduction/trial. Both acknowledge Buckley and the publication’s evolution on these issues, particularly post-1967.
  • Notable Quote:

    "When I got to know Bill Buckley, my parents were quite horrified... National Review was the place you publish that argument. No one else... would." (22:22, Frum)

  • Buckley's post-1967 shift, admiration for Israel, and recognition of anti-Semitism’s toxicity are highlighted.

The Literary World and Public Intellectualism

(25:29–31:06)

• Buckley as a product of America’s mid-20th century literary culture—when writers and thinkers like Capote, Mailer, and Baldwin were cultural icons.
  • "He was a literary figure... from the days when TV thought we don’t just put on some goon." (25:29, Frum)
• Shift noted: Modernity moved from aspirational, text-based standards to “de-emulationism,” with cultural aspiration declining.

Race, Moralism, and Historical Judgment

(31:06–32:21)

• Frum and Tanenhaus confront modern perspectives on Buckley’s (and his family’s) racism, suggesting that while by today’s standards he was certainly racist, historical context and human complexity should be considered.

The Question of Greatness

(32:21–37:04)

• Tanenhaus found Buckley more complicated than expected, possibly “tormented” and less introspective than contemporaries.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Was Bill Buckley a great man or not? Did you ever arrive at a settled conclusion..." (32:21, Frum)

  • Anecdotes emphasize Buckley’s kindness, support for young writers, and his talent-scouting.

Buckley’s Generosity and Personal Kindness

(41:23–47:59)

• Frum credits Buckley’s generosity as a lasting influence:
  • "The influence… is not really an intellectual influence at all… If he could do it… I sort of owe it to him to be, in that way, more like him." (41:23, Frum)
• Buckley’s charm, modesty, and need for company detailed, along with Pat Buckley’s wit.
• Final meetings with Buckley—his graciousness even in physical decline.

Buckley’s Importance: More Than Just The Work

(47:59–49:29)

• Frum makes the case that Buckley’s major importance was profoundly personal—his “model of how to live”
  • Notable Quote:

    "His influence, his importance was profoundly personal. He was a model of how to live, of the kind of person to be." (47:59, Frum)

• Tanenhaus agrees, describing Buckley as "a man of feeling, really more than intellect."
• Frum heartily recommends Tanenhaus’s biography as lively, engaging, and comprehensive.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On DOGE:
  "Doge failed for three main reasons. The first was it was run by arrogant people who did not take the trouble to understand what they were doing." (02:15, Frum)
• On the transformation of conservatism:
  "Bill Buckley's relationship with Rush Limbaugh...captures where the movement became something different...Bill...was very much a sponsor of Rush Limbaugh...he's good at going after the other side..." (13:21, Tanenhaus)
• On Christian identity for National Review:
  "Bill Buckley wrote...George Will agreed with me that the next editor...should be a believing Christian and also he shouldn't come from Canada." (17:11, Tanenhaus quoting Buckley)
• On the changing literary landscape:
  "People today make ironic references to songs and movies, but they don’t really make them to books and certainly not to major books..." (27:54, Frum)
• On personal impact:
  "His influence...is not really an intellectual influence at all...He was a giving person. He was a kindly person who always thought well of others." (41:23, Frum)
• On kindness and greatness:
  "Bill was a movement builder, and that's where you see the connection between the personal life and the public life." (41:23, Tanenhaus)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• DOGE segment & government critique: 00:11–11:50
• Buckley's funeral & Rush Limbaugh: 12:00–14:51
• Personal stories, editorship, and faith: 14:51–20:34
• Buckley, anti-Semitism, and Israel: 20:34–25:29
• Buckley as literary/intellectual icon: 25:29–29:56
• Race, moralism, and cancel culture: 31:06–32:21
• Greatness, personality, and legacy: 32:21–49:29

Tone and Language

The discussion is deeply personal yet historically informed, blending affection and intellectual candor. Frum and Tanenhaus speak thoughtfully, with a sense of shared experience and critical loyalty to their subject.

Conclusion

• The episode delivers an intimate, highly reflective portrait of Buckley, balancing acknowledgment of his flaws and transformations with a recognition of his generosity and lasting impact—both public and private.
• The final verdict situates Buckley as a personally influential, generous, and complicated man, whose contributions to conservatism and American culture were profound but not unproblematic.

Recommended Further Engagement

• Read Sam Tanenhaus’s biography of William F. Buckley, Jr. for a comprehensive view.
• Listen to the Andrew Sullivan podcast for a more factual, biographical entry point.
• Reflect on Buckley’s role through the lens of shifting American intellectual and political cultures.