Podcast Summary: The Atlantic Interview with Caitlin Dickerson

Podcast Title: The Atlantic Interview
Host: Jeffrey Goldberg, Editor-in-Chief of The Atlantic
Guest: Caitlin Dickerson, Staff Writer at The Atlantic
Episode Release Date: August 22, 2022
Episode Focus: Caitlin Dickerson's investigative piece, An American Catastrophe, exploring the Trump administration's policy of separating migrant children from their families.

1. Introduction to Caitlin Dickerson and Her Work

Jeffrey Goldberg opens the conversation by delving into Caitlin Dickerson's journey into immigration reporting. Caitlin shares her background, highlighting her early career and personal connection to immigrant communities.

Caitlin Dickerson (01:51): "I actually fell into immigration reporting because immigration happened to be something that I knew a lot about when I started out as a journalist."

Caitlin explains that her upbringing in Merced, California—a region with a significant immigrant population—combined with her academic studies, naturally led her to focus on immigration stories. Her tenure at NPR as a production assistant and later at The New York Times positioned her to cover the intensifying immigration issues during the 2016 election cycle.

2. The Genesis of the Family Separation Policy

The discussion transitions to the emergence of the family separation policy under the Trump administration. Caitlin outlines how this policy marked an unprecedented shift in U.S. immigration enforcement.

Caitlin Dickerson (04:47): "Separating children from their parents as an immigration policy, it hasn't happened before. It was the harshest application any of us have seen of this basic concept of prevention by deterrence."

Caitlin emphasizes that while previous administrations had implemented strict immigration measures, the scale and secrecy of family separations under Trump were unparalleled. Historically, the U.S. had instances of child removal for reasons unrelated to immigration, but never on the scale witnessed during this period.

3. Bureaucratic Origins and Implementation

Jeffrey probes the origins of the family separation policy, challenging the notion that it solely stemmed from figures like Stephen Miller.

Jeffrey Goldberg (06:33): "It took a lot more than Stephen Miller and Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions to forcefully separate thousands of kids from their parents."

Caitlin elaborates that the idea originated within the border enforcement apparatus, particularly from Tom Homan, then-head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). Initially proposed in 2014 during the Obama administration to address rising border crossings, the concept was shelved but resurfaced aggressively under Trump.

Caitlin Dickerson (06:33): "Tom Homan... first proposed separating families as an escalation of prevention by deterrence."

The policy gained momentum as Trump publicly prioritized border security, prompting officials like Kevin McAleen of Customs and Border Protection (CBP) to resurrect the proposal. Stephen Miller played a pivotal role in pushing the policy forward, seeking approval despite significant logistical and ethical concerns.

4. Theoretical Foundations vs. Practical Realities

Theoretical underpinnings of the policy centered on deterrence—discouraging illegal border crossings by imposing harsh consequences. However, Caitlin argues that the theory faltered against the stark realities faced by migrants.

Caitlin Dickerson (10:54): "A lot of reason to believe it's not a good theory."

She points out that empirical evidence and firsthand accounts reveal that the policy did not deter migration as intended. Instead, it exacerbated the suffering of families fleeing violence and poverty.

Caitlin Dickerson (14:02): "A lot of times a combination of deep, deep poverty and a daily fear of death and a daily encounters with violence."

Caitlin recounts her experiences reporting in Guatemala, where families faced extreme violence and poverty, driving their desperate attempts to migrate to the U.S. The trauma and peril of their journey starkly contrasted the administration's deterrence objectives.

5. Internal Opposition and Bureaucratic Challenges

The conversation highlights the internal conflicts and opposition within the U.S. government to the family separation policy. Notably, figures like Kirstjen Nielsen (Homeland Security Secretary) and John Kelly (White House Chief of Staff) expressed reservations.

Caitlin Dickerson (17:34): "They had been cut out of the conversation. So when family separations are first proposed... they say, absolutely not."

John Kelly, adhering to his military background and chain-of-command principles, focused on logistical challenges, arguing that implementing such a policy was unfeasible without congressional support.

Caitlin Dickerson (18:33): "He focused purely on the logistics. It's not possible. We just can't do it."

Despite these objections, Stephen Miller's relentless advocacy and proximity to President Trump insulated the policy from substantial opposition, allowing it to proceed despite significant ethical and administrative concerns.

6. The Role of Stephen Miller

Stephen Miller emerges as the ideological architect behind the family separation policy, driven by a singular focus on stringent immigration control.

Caitlin Dickerson (25:18): "He was calling people incessantly to press for his policies... a singular focus for him."

Miller's tactics involved exerting pressure across various levels of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), often bypassing traditional bureaucratic channels and protocols. His aggressive lobbying ensured that even moderate officials were coerced into compliance or silenced.

Caitlin Dickerson (27:21): "He was so close to the president and he was so protected because of this narrative... Miller was insulated from any kind of accountability."

7. Human Impact and Ethical Considerations

The policy's devastating impact on families is a central theme. Caitlin shares anecdotes illustrating the harrowing experiences of separated children and their parents.

Caitlin Dickerson (14:02): "A family of four per day. Very, very little nutrients. Access to school is almost non-existent."

The emotional and psychological toll on children, coupled with the logistical chaos of reuniting families years later, underscores the policy's failure to consider human welfare.

8. Post-Administration Efforts and Reunification

Transitioning to the Biden administration, Caitlin discusses the establishment of the Task Force for Family Reunification aimed at addressing the remnants of the family separation policy.

Caitlin Dickerson (33:04): "Almost all of the children who were separated have been released from federal custody... between 700 and 1,000... have not been officially reunited with their parents."

While significant progress has been made in reuniting families, Caitlin highlights ongoing challenges, including poor record-keeping and complex individual circumstances that hinder reunification efforts.

9. Reflections on Bureaucratic Understanding and Responsibility

Caitlin expresses astonishment at the lack of understanding among officials regarding immigration enforcement mechanisms, emphasizing systemic failures within the bureaucracy.

Caitlin Dickerson (35:38): "I was shocked that to this day, many people involved in the decision making just still don't understand how immigration enforcement works."

She suggests that the politically sensitive nature of immigration has deterred talented individuals from engaging deeply with the issue, leaving a narrow group with extreme views to shape policy.

10. Conclusion and Call to Action

Jeffrey Goldberg wraps up the interview by commending Caitlin's investigative work and urging listeners to read her comprehensive piece.

Jeffrey Goldberg (37:33): "This is not forensics here. This is about ideas that are still floating around in society and in certain circles in and out of government. So please read it."

He emphasizes the ongoing relevance of the issue and the importance of public awareness in preventing similar policies in the future.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Caitlin Dickerson (01:51): "I actually fell into immigration reporting because immigration happened to be something that I knew a lot about when I started out as a journalist."

• Caitlin Dickerson (04:47): "Separating children from their parents as an immigration policy, it hasn't happened before."

• Caitlin Dickerson (10:54): "A lot of reason to believe it's not a good theory."

• Caitlin Dickerson (14:02): "A lot of times a combination of deep, deep poverty and a daily fear of death and a daily encounters with violence."

• Caitlin Dickerson (17:34): "They had been cut out of the conversation. So when family separations are first proposed... they say, absolutely not."

• Caitlin Dickerson (25:18): "He was calling people incessantly to press for his policies... a singular focus for him."

• Caitlin Dickerson (35:38): "I was shocked that to this day, many people involved in the decision making just still don't understand how immigration enforcement works."

Final Thoughts

Caitlin Dickerson's An American Catastrophe unravels the intricate and often troubling dynamics within U.S. immigration enforcement that led to the family separation policy. Through meticulous investigation and poignant interviews, the piece sheds light on bureaucratic failures, ideological extremism, and the profound human cost of such policies. The conversation with Jeffrey Goldberg underscores the critical need for informed public discourse and accountability to prevent history from repeating its darkest chapters.

For a deeper understanding and comprehensive insights, listeners are encouraged to read Caitlin Dickerson's full article on The Atlantic.