The Atlantic Interview: Madeleine Albright

Podcast: The David Frum Show (hosted by Jeffrey Goldberg for The Atlantic)
Date: April 18, 2018
Guest: Madeleine Albright, former U.S. Secretary of State

Overview:

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Jeffrey Goldberg and Madeleine Albright, centered on Albright’s new book Fascism: A Warning. Drawing on Albright’s unique personal history as a refugee from Nazi- and Communist-occupied Europe and her experience as America’s first female Secretary of State, the discussion examines the meaning of fascism, its resurgence in contemporary politics, the challenges facing democracy, America’s changing role in world affairs, and the responsibility of citizens to defend democratic values.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Fascism (01:13–03:33)

Complexity and Elements:
Albright stresses that fascism is “not easy to define,” but centers on hyper-nationalism, tribalism, scapegoating, disregard for civil liberties, demonization of opponents, use of propaganda, encouragement of violence, centralized power, suppression of dissent, and undermining democratic institutions.
- Quote ([02:08]):
  “Fascism is... an identification with a tribe or hyper-nationalism ... where you already discriminate against those that are not part of the group and don’t care about their civil rights or liberties... And you never listen to anybody who disagrees with you.”
  — Madeleine Albright

2. Albright’s Personal Story & Encounters with Fascism (03:33–06:41)

Childhood as a Refugee:
Raised as a Catholic, later learned of Jewish heritage and family’s fate in the Holocaust—26 relatives murdered.
- Quote ([05:49]):
  “I was raised a Catholic, married an Episcopalian, and found out I was Jewish. So I have interfaith dialogues by myself.”
  — Madeleine Albright (humorously)
Scapegoating and National Betrayal:
Refers to Czechoslovakia’s abandonment during Munich and the need for a scapegoat as fascism’s core feature.

3. Are We Reliving the 1930s? Comparing Then and Now (06:41–09:46)

Historical Echoes:
Albright draws parallels between early fascism (Mussolini, Hitler) and current global trends: economic discontent, minority scapegoating, erosion of democracy, and leaders exploiting public anxieties.
- Quote ([08:24]):
  “What’s so interesting and so dangerous ... is that [fascism] does come bottom up because there are people who feel they’ve been discriminated against ... then there is a leader from above who takes advantage of that disquiet.”
  — Madeleine Albright
Democracy’s Fragility:
The optimism after the Cold War gave way to reality; democracy is difficult, slow, and prone to corruption and new forms of division.

4. Cyclical Threats & Role of Technology (12:13–14:01)

Moving Backward or Forward:
Goldberg challenges Albright’s optimism, referencing historical cycles and current pessimism.
- Optimist Who Worries:
  “I am an optimist who worries a lot. And I am worried about the fact ... there are conditions out there that ... provide the petri dish for something terrible to happen...” ([13:03])
  — Madeleine Albright
Activism as Antidote:
Albright urges action: “See something, say something, [and] do something.”

5. Risks of Fascism in America (14:01–18:29)

Preconditions Exist:
Albright identifies systemic disenfranchisement, technological displacement, lack of education, rise of scapegoating, polarization, and centrism’s decline as preconditions analogous to historical fascist rises.
- Quote ([14:21]):
  “I do see some of the divisions ... people feeling that they have been disenfranchised or have lost their jobs ... there is kind of this sense that ... they need somebody to blame... operating on the fear factor, which is another aspect...”
  — Madeleine Albright
On President Trump:
Refuses to label Trump a “fascist,” but calls him “the least democratic president of modern history,” with undemocratic and “fascistic tendencies”—notably, divisiveness, attacks on press/judiciary, disregard for norms.
- Quote ([16:44]):
  “He is not a fascist. I’m not calling him a fascist. I do think he’s the least democratic president of modern history.”
  — Madeleine Albright

Memorable Exchange:

Goldberg ([17:29]):
“What would he have to do for you to say, you know what, this guy’s a fascist? ... a red line?”
Albright ([17:45]):
“... the willingness, how much violence is involved ... willingness to do anything to stay in power ... subjugating all the various institutions ... not allowing any part of the institutional democratic issues to work and ... a bully with an army.”

6. Civic Duty & The Danger of Normalization (18:29–21:56)

Positive Action:
Albright’s “to do” list includes: public participation, defending free press, protecting judicial independence, and listening to opposing viewpoints—even humorously recounting her morning routine: “As I drive to work every morning, I do listen to right wing radio and I yell and give people the finger.” ([20:34])
On Potential Firing of Mueller/Rosenstein:
Such acts would signal “above the law” thinking, a core fascist symptom—should energize public protest and turnout.
- Quote ([21:56]):
  “One of the real signs ... is contempt for ... thinking that you’re above the law. ... that is something very much to worry about.”
  — Madeleine Albright

7. Why Did the Republican Immune System Fail? (23:07–25:36)

Lack of Pushback:
Albright laments the parties’ inability to stop Trump, and the lack of resistance from “decent Republicans”—with many simply retiring.
- Quote ([24:05]):
  “There is not a pushback by what I call decent Republicans ... they are seeing their party, the party of Abraham Lincoln, really destroyed.”
  — Madeleine Albright

8. On Meeting Trump and Assessing Character (25:36–27:10)

Never Met Trump:
Has no desire to: “I really would not [want to meet him] ... I have nothing to say to him.”
- On Capacity for Learning ([25:55]):
  “I do not, frankly. And that’s the sad part...”
Comparisons to Foreign Leaders:
Finds Trump unique: “I truly can’t think of anybody ... as undisciplined as Trump.” ([27:00])

Memorable Moment:

Albright ([28:24]):
“It’s the first time that I have been interrupted by a porn [on CNN].”
(referring to breaking news about a porn actress lawsuit)

9. American Indispensability & Leadership (29:31–33:49)

Albright’s Creed:
“When America is not present, terrible things happen, and when we somehow help, then better things happen.”
- “Indispensable” Explained:
  “There’s nothing about the word indispensable that says alone. It means that we need to be engaged ... in partnership with others.” ([29:31])
Isolationism & War Weariness:
The legacy of Iraq, Afghanistan, and politicians’ inability to explain the link between global engagement and domestic well-being have contributed to public fatigue.
- Quote ([31:52]):
  “Americans are the most generous people in the world with the shortest attention span...”
Trump’s Appeals:
Trump taps into real feelings of being unappreciated, but weaponizes them dangerously through nativism and scapegoating.

10. Syria, Russia, and Trump’s Foreign Policy (33:49–39:22)

On Syria:
Albright supports a response to chemical weapons but criticizes the lack of strategy and the ineffective, chaotic decision-making under Trump ([34:32]).
US Diplomatic Signals:
Damage from Trump undercutting diplomats and sending mixed messages, particularly regarding Russia ([35:24]–[36:30]).
On Trump–Putin Dynamic:
Albright speculates that Trump’s refusal to criticize or confront Putin may relate to insecurity about his own legitimacy, and warns of Russia’s sophisticated information warfare.
- Quote ([38:33]):
  “Putin is capable. He has really militarized information and is using asymmetrical warfare now...”
  — Madeleine Albright
- Quote ([38:50]):
  “This has to do with undermining democracy, which is why I’ve said the things I did about not having democratic instincts.”
  — Madeleine Albright

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Her Interfaith Upbringing ([05:49]):
“I was raised a Catholic, married an Episcopalian, and found out I was Jewish. So I have interfaith dialogues by myself.”
On Democratic Responsibility ([20:34]):
“Run for office, support those who are. ... We have to learn to listen to people we disagree with. ... I listen to right wing radio and I yell and give people the finger.”
On What Makes a Fascist Leader ([17:45]):
“...the willingness ... to do anything to stay in power and really much more ... subjugating all the various institutions...”
On Meeting Donald Trump ([25:44]):
“I really would not [want to meet him] ... I have nothing to say to him.”
On Trump’s Instincts ([16:44]):
“He is not a fascist. I’m not calling him a fascist. I do think he’s the least democratic president of modern history.”
On Uniqueness of Trump ([27:00]):
“I truly can’t think of anybody ... as undisciplined as Trump. I think that is his major issue.”

Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------|----------------| | Defining Fascism | 01:13–03:33 | | Childhood Memoir/Family Fate | 03:33–06:41 | | Parallels to 1930s/Conditions | 06:41–09:46 | | Optimism, Cycles, Tech | 12:13–14:01 | | US Pre-Fascist Tendencies | 14:01–18:29 | | Trump’s Classification | 16:37–17:29 | | Civic Duty & Normalization | 18:29–21:56 | | GOP’s Failure | 23:07–25:36 | | Trump: No Interest in Meeting | 25:36–27:10 | | US Role in the World | 29:31–33:49 | | Syria & Foreign Policy | 33:49–36:30 | | Putin–Trump Relationship | 37:10–39:22 |

Tone & Language

Albright’s voice is measured, informed, self-deprecating, and leavened with humor—even as she discusses grave topics. Goldberg gently presses her for clarity and provocation but maintains a serious, respectful dialogue.

Summary Takeaways

Albright warns that democracy should not be taken for granted and fascism adapts, rising from public discontent when given opportunity by opportunistic leaders.
While Trump is not labeled a fascist, his words and actions embody key undemocratic and “fascistic” tendencies.
The most important antidote is sustained civic engagement, resisting normalization of undemocratic behavior, and reasserting personal and collective moral agency.
America’s retreat from global leadership weakens democracy everywhere—domestically and internationally.
Citizens “who care actually have to do positive things”—votes, activism, and advocacy remain the bulwark against a slide into authoritarianism.

A must-listen for defenders of democracy, students of history, and anyone concerned about the current state and future of American and world politics.

The Atlantic Interview: Madeleine Albright

Podcast: The David Frum Show (hosted by Jeffrey Goldberg for The Atlantic)
Date: April 18, 2018
Guest: Madeleine Albright, former U.S. Secretary of State

Overview:

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Fascism (01:13–03:33)

Complexity and Elements:
Albright stresses that fascism is “not easy to define,” but centers on hyper-nationalism, tribalism, scapegoating, disregard for civil liberties, demonization of opponents, use of propaganda, encouragement of violence, centralized power, suppression of dissent, and undermining democratic institutions.
- Quote ([02:08]):
  “Fascism is... an identification with a tribe or hyper-nationalism ... where you already discriminate against those that are not part of the group and don’t care about their civil rights or liberties... And you never listen to anybody who disagrees with you.”
  — Madeleine Albright

2. Albright’s Personal Story & Encounters with Fascism (03:33–06:41)

Childhood as a Refugee:
Raised as a Catholic, later learned of Jewish heritage and family’s fate in the Holocaust—26 relatives murdered.
- Quote ([05:49]):
  “I was raised a Catholic, married an Episcopalian, and found out I was Jewish. So I have interfaith dialogues by myself.”
  — Madeleine Albright (humorously)
Scapegoating and National Betrayal:
Refers to Czechoslovakia’s abandonment during Munich and the need for a scapegoat as fascism’s core feature.

3. Are We Reliving the 1930s? Comparing Then and Now (06:41–09:46)

Historical Echoes:
Albright draws parallels between early fascism (Mussolini, Hitler) and current global trends: economic discontent, minority scapegoating, erosion of democracy, and leaders exploiting public anxieties.
- Quote ([08:24]):
  “What’s so interesting and so dangerous ... is that [fascism] does come bottom up because there are people who feel they’ve been discriminated against ... then there is a leader from above who takes advantage of that disquiet.”
  — Madeleine Albright
Democracy’s Fragility:
The optimism after the Cold War gave way to reality; democracy is difficult, slow, and prone to corruption and new forms of division.

4. Cyclical Threats & Role of Technology (12:13–14:01)

Moving Backward or Forward:
Goldberg challenges Albright’s optimism, referencing historical cycles and current pessimism.
- Optimist Who Worries:
  “I am an optimist who worries a lot. And I am worried about the fact ... there are conditions out there that ... provide the petri dish for something terrible to happen...” ([13:03])
  — Madeleine Albright
Activism as Antidote:
Albright urges action: “See something, say something, [and] do something.”

5. Risks of Fascism in America (14:01–18:29)

Preconditions Exist:
Albright identifies systemic disenfranchisement, technological displacement, lack of education, rise of scapegoating, polarization, and centrism’s decline as preconditions analogous to historical fascist rises.
- Quote ([14:21]):
  “I do see some of the divisions ... people feeling that they have been disenfranchised or have lost their jobs ... there is kind of this sense that ... they need somebody to blame... operating on the fear factor, which is another aspect...”
  — Madeleine Albright
On President Trump:
Refuses to label Trump a “fascist,” but calls him “the least democratic president of modern history,” with undemocratic and “fascistic tendencies”—notably, divisiveness, attacks on press/judiciary, disregard for norms.
- Quote ([16:44]):
  “He is not a fascist. I’m not calling him a fascist. I do think he’s the least democratic president of modern history.”
  — Madeleine Albright

Memorable Exchange:

Goldberg ([17:29]):
“What would he have to do for you to say, you know what, this guy’s a fascist? ... a red line?”
Albright ([17:45]):
“... the willingness, how much violence is involved ... willingness to do anything to stay in power ... subjugating all the various institutions ... not allowing any part of the institutional democratic issues to work and ... a bully with an army.”

6. Civic Duty & The Danger of Normalization (18:29–21:56)

Positive Action:
Albright’s “to do” list includes: public participation, defending free press, protecting judicial independence, and listening to opposing viewpoints—even humorously recounting her morning routine: “As I drive to work every morning, I do listen to right wing radio and I yell and give people the finger.” ([20:34])
On Potential Firing of Mueller/Rosenstein:
Such acts would signal “above the law” thinking, a core fascist symptom—should energize public protest and turnout.
- Quote ([21:56]):
  “One of the real signs ... is contempt for ... thinking that you’re above the law. ... that is something very much to worry about.”
  — Madeleine Albright

7. Why Did the Republican Immune System Fail? (23:07–25:36)

Lack of Pushback:
Albright laments the parties’ inability to stop Trump, and the lack of resistance from “decent Republicans”—with many simply retiring.
- Quote ([24:05]):
  “There is not a pushback by what I call decent Republicans ... they are seeing their party, the party of Abraham Lincoln, really destroyed.”
  — Madeleine Albright

8. On Meeting Trump and Assessing Character (25:36–27:10)

Never Met Trump:
Has no desire to: “I really would not [want to meet him] ... I have nothing to say to him.”
- On Capacity for Learning ([25:55]):
  “I do not, frankly. And that’s the sad part...”
Comparisons to Foreign Leaders:
Finds Trump unique: “I truly can’t think of anybody ... as undisciplined as Trump.” ([27:00])

Memorable Moment:

Albright ([28:24]):
“It’s the first time that I have been interrupted by a porn [on CNN].”
(referring to breaking news about a porn actress lawsuit)

9. American Indispensability & Leadership (29:31–33:49)

Albright’s Creed:
“When America is not present, terrible things happen, and when we somehow help, then better things happen.”
- “Indispensable” Explained:
  “There’s nothing about the word indispensable that says alone. It means that we need to be engaged ... in partnership with others.” ([29:31])
Isolationism & War Weariness:
The legacy of Iraq, Afghanistan, and politicians’ inability to explain the link between global engagement and domestic well-being have contributed to public fatigue.
- Quote ([31:52]):
  “Americans are the most generous people in the world with the shortest attention span...”
Trump’s Appeals:
Trump taps into real feelings of being unappreciated, but weaponizes them dangerously through nativism and scapegoating.

10. Syria, Russia, and Trump’s Foreign Policy (33:49–39:22)

On Syria:
Albright supports a response to chemical weapons but criticizes the lack of strategy and the ineffective, chaotic decision-making under Trump ([34:32]).
US Diplomatic Signals:
Damage from Trump undercutting diplomats and sending mixed messages, particularly regarding Russia ([35:24]–[36:30]).
On Trump–Putin Dynamic:
Albright speculates that Trump’s refusal to criticize or confront Putin may relate to insecurity about his own legitimacy, and warns of Russia’s sophisticated information warfare.
- Quote ([38:33]):
  “Putin is capable. He has really militarized information and is using asymmetrical warfare now...”
  — Madeleine Albright
- Quote ([38:50]):
  “This has to do with undermining democracy, which is why I’ve said the things I did about not having democratic instincts.”
  — Madeleine Albright

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Her Interfaith Upbringing ([05:49]):
“I was raised a Catholic, married an Episcopalian, and found out I was Jewish. So I have interfaith dialogues by myself.”
On Democratic Responsibility ([20:34]):
“Run for office, support those who are. ... We have to learn to listen to people we disagree with. ... I listen to right wing radio and I yell and give people the finger.”
On What Makes a Fascist Leader ([17:45]):
“...the willingness ... to do anything to stay in power and really much more ... subjugating all the various institutions...”
On Meeting Donald Trump ([25:44]):
“I really would not [want to meet him] ... I have nothing to say to him.”
On Trump’s Instincts ([16:44]):
“He is not a fascist. I’m not calling him a fascist. I do think he’s the least democratic president of modern history.”
On Uniqueness of Trump ([27:00]):
“I truly can’t think of anybody ... as undisciplined as Trump. I think that is his major issue.”

Timestamps for Major Segments

Tone & Language

Summary Takeaways

Albright warns that democracy should not be taken for granted and fascism adapts, rising from public discontent when given opportunity by opportunistic leaders.
While Trump is not labeled a fascist, his words and actions embody key undemocratic and “fascistic” tendencies.
The most important antidote is sustained civic engagement, resisting normalization of undemocratic behavior, and reasserting personal and collective moral agency.
America’s retreat from global leadership weakens democracy everywhere—domestically and internationally.
Citizens “who care actually have to do positive things”—votes, activism, and advocacy remain the bulwark against a slide into authoritarianism.

The Atlantic Interview: Madeleine Albright

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Summary

The Atlantic Interview: Madeleine Albright

Overview:

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Fascism (01:13–03:33)

2. Albright’s Personal Story & Encounters with Fascism (03:33–06:41)

3. Are We Reliving the 1930s? Comparing Then and Now (06:41–09:46)

4. Cyclical Threats & Role of Technology (12:13–14:01)

5. Risks of Fascism in America (14:01–18:29)

Memorable Exchange:

6. Civic Duty & The Danger of Normalization (18:29–21:56)

7. Why Did the Republican Immune System Fail? (23:07–25:36)

8. On Meeting Trump and Assessing Character (25:36–27:10)

Memorable Moment:

9. American Indispensability & Leadership (29:31–33:49)

10. Syria, Russia, and Trump’s Foreign Policy (33:49–39:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Major Segments

Tone & Language

Summary Takeaways

A must-listen for defenders of democracy, students of history, and anyone concerned about the current state and future of American and world politics.

Summary

The Atlantic Interview: Madeleine Albright

Overview:

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Fascism (01:13–03:33)

2. Albright’s Personal Story & Encounters with Fascism (03:33–06:41)

3. Are We Reliving the 1930s? Comparing Then and Now (06:41–09:46)

4. Cyclical Threats & Role of Technology (12:13–14:01)

5. Risks of Fascism in America (14:01–18:29)

Memorable Exchange:

6. Civic Duty & The Danger of Normalization (18:29–21:56)

7. Why Did the Republican Immune System Fail? (23:07–25:36)

8. On Meeting Trump and Assessing Character (25:36–27:10)

Memorable Moment:

9. American Indispensability & Leadership (29:31–33:49)

10. Syria, Russia, and Trump’s Foreign Policy (33:49–39:22)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Timestamps for Major Segments

Tone & Language

Summary Takeaways

A must-listen for defenders of democracy, students of history, and anyone concerned about the current state and future of American and world politics.