Podcast Summary: The Atlantic Interview: Michele Norris
Podcast: The David Frum Show (The Atlantic)
Air Date: April 11, 2018
Guests: Michele Norris (journalist, founder of the Race Card Project)
Host: Jeffrey Goldberg
Overview
In this episode, Jeffrey Goldberg sits down with Peabody Award-winning journalist Michele Norris to discuss her recent work examining whiteness and the dynamics of race in contemporary America, focusing in particular on themes she raised in her National Geographic feature. Norris draws on years of listening to diverse Americans through the Race Card Project to shed light on the fears and anxieties driving conversations about race, with special attention to changing demographics, the roots of privilege, and economic and cultural dislocation. The conversation is candid, nuanced, and explores both the historical and emotional realities behind today’s fraught racial discourse.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Shifting the Focus of Racial Discourse to Include White Americans
[02:05–04:43]
- Norris explains the impetus for her National Geographic piece, which explores “white America” and the increasing focus on whiteness as a racial identity.
- She observes a shift: conversations about race are now more inclusive of white Americans, whereas previously they centered almost exclusively on people of color.
- “Whiteness is something that is being placed under a microscope … White America had almost like a bystander status.” — Michele Norris [03:05]
2. The “You Will Not Replace Us” Anxiety
[04:43–07:24]
- Reflecting on the 2017 Charlottesville rally, Norris discusses the emergence of overt white nationalist sentiment and the broader, more private anxieties among white Americans about demographic change.
- “The core sentiment in that statement is something that people in private spaces actually talk about. It’s a deep anxiety.” — Michele Norris [06:46]
- These anxieties find expression in various sectors (sports, politics, economics) amid rapid demographic and social changes.
3. Stories from the Race Card Project
[07:29–10:08]
- Norris shares stories from her Race Card Project, highlighting how white Americans (including those from formerly marginalized European immigrant groups) grapple with shifting privilege.
- She recounts one six-word story: “I now understand the WASPs.” The storyteller described losing the “easy pass” long associated with whiteness, acknowledging both discomfort and the necessity of change.
4. Hazleton, Pennsylvania: A Microcosm of Change
[13:13–16:59]
- Norris recounts her reporting from Hazleton, a town demographically transformed by Latino immigration after economic decline.
- Sixteen years ago, Hazleton was ~97% white; now it’s ~44% white—rapid, vertigo-inducing change for longstanding residents.
- Many factory jobs disappeared, and Latino workers were recruited to fill new roles, revitalizing the town even as cultural and economic tensions simmered.
5. The Latino Threat Narrative and Cultural Dislocation
[17:14–22:01]
- Some whites in Hazleton express fears rooted in actual experiences (e.g., crime) but also a broader “Latino threat narrative,” often fueled by rumor rather than fact.
- Norris remarks on tradition and the discomfort caused by changed community rituals, foods, and cultural cues.
- “You have traditions that you hold onto that you enjoy, and those traditions change … And that doesn’t always feel good.” — Michele Norris [19:09]
6. Understanding vs. Sympathy; The Roots of Bias
[20:07–22:01]
- Norris positions herself as a neutral listener, more invested in understanding the drivers of bias than sympathizing with it.
- She likens examining bias to diagnosing a disease: understanding the roots is the first step toward addressing it.
- “You have to understand the dark forces and the social diseases that take root in the body politic … It means that you look something in the eye that you might personally disdain.” — Michele Norris [21:02]
7. Economic Anxiety, Technology, and Being Left Behind
[22:01–24:00]
- It’s not just race; economic fragility and technology-related anxiety also drive resistance to change.
- Goldberg points out that the feeling of being left behind, now common among some whites, has long been experienced by minorities.
8. Privilege, Fairness, and Material Loss
[11:38–13:11]
- Norris notes that while people may intellectually understand the value of fairness, emotionally many struggle with the loss of privilege it entails.
- “I think they’d rather have privilege because … And before people jump down his throat, I actually give him credit for being honest. … He’s putting something on the table that … people perhaps express in the quiet of their home or at the kitchen table.” — Michele Norris [12:09]
9. Persistent Inequity and Misconceptions About Upward Mobility
[24:04–27:14]
- Norris discusses research showing persistent downward mobility among African Americans, even when born into affluence, in contrast to common white anxieties about being “left behind.”
- She references work by Derek Hamilton, Sandy Darity, and Ta-Nehisi Coates, illustrating how structural barriers limit true equality and economic mobility for minorities.
10. Trumpism, Selective Racism, and the Limits of Curiosity
[27:14–29:01]
- Goldberg and Norris talk about the complicated interplay between racism, economic anxiety, and support for Trump, highlighting the phenomenon of people supporting candidates with racist rhetoric without seeing themselves as racist.
- Norris stresses the need to go beyond curiosity to education, diagnosis, and collective engagement for real change.
11. The Need for Historical Understanding
[29:01–36:12]
- Norris argues that truly addressing racial inequality requires a deeper public understanding of American history.
- She highlights misconceptions about slavery, the GI Bill, FHA loans, and the roots of wealth inequality.
- “If you don’t understand that, perhaps you don’t understand why you have certain advantages and why privileges are accrued to one class or another … This is something that happened through socialization over a long period of time.” — Michele Norris [31:01]
- She asserts that public policy, historical decisions, and “social engineering” determined current disparities.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the evolution of racial conversations:
“The notion now that whiteness is something that is being placed under a microscope … White Americans are … being examined.” — Michele Norris [03:18] -
On the Charlottesville rally:
“For a lot of people, they will remember that weekend in the summer as the moment where white nationalism came out of the shadows … they were not hiding at all … it was a social media moment for many of them.” — Michele Norris [05:07] -
On changing definitions of privilege:
“If you really want a world where equality is not just talked about but practiced, it means that he may not be on easy street … and yet he understands that’s necessary.” — Michele Norris [09:45] -
On the persistence of racial headwinds:
“Something is pushing down on them. … Even African American males who were born to relative affluence have a much greater propensity toward moving downward economically.” — Michele Norris [25:37] -
On historical ignorance:
“They think of slavery as ancient history, as in not three generations ago, four generations ago, 1865 made everything flat, that it was a long time ago, and that at the end of slavery, that it was the end of the problem.” — Michele Norris [33:08]
Timestamps for Important Segments
- Opening — Introduction & Purpose: [00:20–01:28]
- Shift to Including White Americans in Race Talks: [02:05–04:43]
- Charlottesville & White Anxiety: [04:43–07:24]
- Stories from the Race Card Project: [07:29–10:08]
- Hazleton, PA Case Study: [13:13–16:59]
- Latino Threat Narrative & Cultural Change: [17:14–19:09]
- Bias, Sympathy, and Diagnosis: [20:07–22:01]
- Economic Anxiety/Left Behind: [22:01–24:00]
- Privilege & Loss: [11:38–13:11]
- Downward Mobility Among African Americans: [24:04–27:14]
- Trumpism/Selective Acceptance of Racism: [27:14–29:01]
- Need for Historical Understanding: [29:01–36:12]
Tone & Language
Michele Norris is reflective, clear-eyed, and careful not to generalize, emphasizing nuance in both experience and interpretation. Goldberg injects a slightly wry, probing tone, pushing for clarity but allowing Norris space to explain and complicate the narrative. Throughout, the conversation remains respectful but unsparing, employing plain language to address both discomfort and hope.
Conclusion:
This episode is a thought-provoking, grounded look at how race, privilege, and anxiety are playing out in 21st-century America. Norris’s on-the-ground insights and her skill in drawing out human stories offer listeners new ways to think about the nation’s racial landscape and the vital importance of understanding our history to create a more equitable future.