The Atlantic Interview: Ta-Nehisi Coates

Podcast: The David Frum Show (The Atlantic)
Date: March 15, 2018
Host: Jeffrey Goldberg
Guest: Ta-Nehisi Coates

Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging conversation recorded live at South by Southwest 2018, Atlantic Editor-in-Chief Jeffrey Goldberg sits down with author, journalist, and comics writer Ta-Nehisi Coates. The discussion explores the complexities of race, democracy, representation, journalism, activism, and culture in America today, drawing from Coates’ recent work as a national correspondent, his comic book writing (notably Black Panther and Captain America), and his reflections on President Barack Obama, President Donald Trump, and the shifting landscape of public discourse. Coates brings a candid, often humorous and self-reflective tone, challenging assumptions about America’s progress, the media’s role, the meaning of symbolism, and his own place in ongoing debates.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Comic Book Writing and American Ideals

([01:00]–[03:39])

• Coates’ Entry Into Comic Writing: He describes growing up in West Baltimore where Malcolm X was revered, and his initial aversion to Captain America as a symbol of flag-waving nationalism.
  • “Malcolm X—we didn’t have Jesus, but Malcolm X was like Jesus.” – Coates (01:06)
• Approaching Captain America: Coates compares Captain America to Barack Obama—someone who earnestly believes in America’s ideals.
  • “He is someone who believes in the ideal of America. Like, really, really believes it's possible.” – Coates (01:36)
• On Writing Outside His Own Beliefs: He sees writing both comics and journalism as an exercise in empathy, seeking to inhabit different perspectives honestly.
  • “The task is to figure out how someone could come to arrive at that, you know, sort of point of view, even as it’s so different from your very.” – Coates (01:55)

2. The Phenomenon of Black Panther

([04:05]–[07:14])

• Why Black Panther Succeeded: Coates credits both director Ryan Coogler’s talent and the film’s exploration of relationships within the Black diaspora.
  • “He’s made three very different movies, all of them really, really, really well done.” – Coates (04:25)
  • The film’s international Black cast and diasporic themes were unprecedented.
• Political & Cultural Context: Black Panther’s success reflects a need for positivity and representation, especially against a backdrop of presidential rhetoric disparaging Black and brown communities.
  • “It’s not a mistake that when you have, like, say, a president who refers to Haiti as a shithole...that when you have a film like that, that says what it says about black people...folks glamour that.” – Coates (05:43)
  • Anecdote: A Harlem audience member leaving the premiere says, “So this is what white people feel like every day.” – Coates (06:26)

3. Media, Objectivity, and Coverage of Trump

([07:14]–[09:34])

• On Mainstream Media’s Performance: Coates feels surprisingly optimistic about the media’s current coverage, seeing less hesitation in calling out racism and misinformation.
  • “I am oddly optimistic...Folks are doing a really, really good job.” – Coates (07:36–08:03)
• Problematic Profiles of Trump Supporters: Coates criticizes repeated journalistic forays into “Trump country” that presume voters were naive or regretful.
  • “Because the premise is like, that these folks did not know what they were doing, and they did.” – Coates (08:26)
  • “No respect for their racism at all.” – Coates (08:49)
  • Race was central to Trump’s appeal, and reporters are often surprised to hear this openly admitted.

4. The Journalist vs. the Activist

([10:54]–[13:07])

• On Fact-Checking and Political Identity: Coates draws a clear distinction between activism and journalism, insisting on fairness and factual integrity even when sharing sympathies with causes like Black Lives Matter.
  • “I'm a writer. My opinions and my politics are very, very clear. One can be in sympathy with the aims of activists...But the job of the activist is to get people to do something.” – Coates (11:17–12:18)
• Cornel West Controversy: West has criticized Coates for not being progressive or activist enough; Coates responds that his strength is depth in topics he’s truly informed on, not breadth or performative unity.
  • “There's no intellectual fight like a sectarian fight...who agree on 95%, who viciously denounce each other on that 5%.” – Coates (15:34)

5. Obama, Symbolism, and Political Reaction

([16:41]–[23:36])

• On Being ‘Tough Enough’ on Obama: Coates reflects on the challenge of balancing pride and joy in Obama’s achievement with criticism of his policies, especially regarding race and colorblindness.
  • “You know, I criticized him, you know, all the way through for it.” – Coates (18:24)
• The Power and Risk of Symbolism: Coates argues that symbols matter; Obama’s presidency, for better or worse, carried profound symbolic weight.
  • “Maybe that symbol's really, really important. Maybe we underrate…” – Coates (19:38)
• Trump as Reaction: Trump’s rise is a direct response to the existential shock of a Black president, not a result of Obama’s specific actions.
  • “Trump could not have become President without the response to Barack Obama.” – Coates (22:07)
  • “Consistently during those eight years, anywhere from half to a narrow majority of the Republican Party believed that the president...was illegitimate because he was not born in this country.” – Coates (22:57)

6. Is Progress Real? Chaos vs. Justice

([23:36]–[25:38])

• On the Arc of History: Coates doubts that there is an inevitable moral arc toward justice; he sees history as cyclical, with backlashes and entrenched forces like white supremacy persisting in new forms.
  • “You've written that there might be an arc, but it bends toward chaos.” – Goldberg (23:47)
  • “It's naive to think that this force that has been so powerful in American history and politics is just gonna age out.” – Coates (24:19)

7. Journalism’s Limits & the Challenge of Persuasion

([25:38]–[30:27])

• Can Facts Change Minds? Coates doubts that journalists can persuade the “hardcore” Trump base to accept observable reality.
  • “I don't feel like it's my job.” – Coates (26:38)
  • “It’s long been the way for black journalists and black writers to soften their words so that white people will hear them. And to me, that just takes all the fun out of writing.” – Coates (27:50)
• On Writing Honestly for Himself: He purposely writes with unvarnished anger and authenticity rather than didactic “Racism 101” for white audiences.
  • “Anger gets a bad rap. Anger is a very, very human emotion that can be good for something, you know. And I try to write with all of that force and all of that tenacity and, you know, all of that heart, you know, that I have.” – Coates (29:14)

8. Audience Questions & Memorable Moments

(Key segments [30:27]–[46:11])

• On Interviewing Trump: Coates sees no mystery or complexity to Trump’s views, finding them bluntly self-evident.
  • “There is nothing about Donald Trump that strikes me as reflective.” – Coates (32:13)
• Ideal Superhero for His Son: There isn’t a single model—his own hero was Spider-Man, “Great power, great responsibility.” – Coates (33:32)
• What Would Move Privileged People to Change? Only when their interests are directly at stake, as with Black soldiers in the Civil War or Cold War-era civil rights.
  • “Racism is a luxury. As long as you can afford it, you’re going to afford it. It’s in those moments when you can’t afford it…” – Coates (35:28)
  • “A complete loss of whiteness and its suite of privileges...massive redistribution of wealth...But the money is just the beginning…” – Coates (36:26)
• Differences in Writing to a Daughter: Coates refuses to speculate; his book’s voice was rooted in lived experience with his son.
  • “That’s bullshit...Because I wrote Between the World and Me out of a specific experience I had with Somari Coates. And that’s what I know…” – Coates (39:13)
• On Leaving Twitter: Coates says he will “never” return, explaining that the medium is unhealthy for deep, careful thinkers and writers.
  • “Part of maturity is understanding what is good for you and what is not good for you.” – Coates (41:12)

9. Writing Comics vs. Nonfiction

([44:58]–[46:11])

• Research is Critical: Creating for Marvel is a process in continuity and research, analogous to nonfiction writing for rigorous publications.
  • “You actually have to do all this historical research...and you have to base whatever you’re writing...on what happened before.” – Coates (45:19)

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• “He is someone who believes in the ideal of America. Like, really, really believes it's possible.” – Ta-Nehisi Coates (01:36)
• “It's not hard to say something good about America. I love America. Great food, great culture, cool people. You know, just cause I don't like the politics doesn't mean I don't like the country.” – Coates (02:34)
• “The very fraught, very beautiful, and very tense relationship between black people across the diaspora...There is so much room for mythology and storytelling in that relationship.” – Coates (04:34)
• “If Barack Obama was president, that film still would have been successful…I do feel like there was a need right now, specifically in the larger country.” – Coates (06:07)
• “I am oddly optimistic…I think media's actually performing pretty well right now.” – Coates (07:36)
• “Because the premise is like, that these folks did not know what they were doing, and they did.” – Coates (08:26)
• “No respect for their racism at all.” – Coates (08:49)
• “I'm a journalist. I'm a writer...my job is different...you have to have a kind of loyalty to facts.” – Coates (11:17)
• “There’s no intellectual fight like a sectarian fight...who agree on 95%, who viciously denounce each other on that 5%.” – Coates (15:34)
• “Maybe that symbol's really, really important. Maybe we underrate…” – Coates (19:38)
• “Trump could not have become President without the response to Barack Obama.” – Coates (22:07)
• “It's naive to think that this force that has been so powerful in American history and politics is just gonna age out.” – Coates (24:19)
• “I don't feel like it's my job.” (to persuade Trump supporters with facts) – Coates (26:38)
• “Anger gets a bad rap...And I try to write with all of that force and all of that tenacity and, you know, all of that heart.” – Coates (29:14)
• “There is nothing about Donald Trump that strikes me as reflective.” – Coates (32:13)
• “Racism is a luxury. As long as you can afford it, you’re going to afford it.” – Coates (35:28)
• “A complete loss of whiteness and its suite of privileges...but the money is just the beginning of it.” – Coates (36:26)
• "Part of maturity is understanding what is good for you and what is not good for you. And I don't think [Twitter] was good for me." – Coates (41:12)

Memorable Moments and Tone

• Humor and Candor: Coates jokes about being “really okay” when strangers greet him with “Wakanda Forever” and calls “Great food, cool people” the new American motto.
• Self-Reflection: He openly discusses discomfort with labels like “public intellectual,” acknowledges gaps in his own expertise, and stresses the importance of humility in public debate.
• Philosophical Depth: The episode features a thoughtful discussion about the weight of symbolism, historical cycles, and the real costs of social transformation.
• Directness: Coates does not shy away from naming and critiquing racism, addressing his critics, and challenging the very premise of some audience questions.
• Reluctance on ‘Hope’: Throughout, Coates resists traditional narratives of progress or inevitability, instead grounding his analysis in history and hard-fought skepticism.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00] Writing Captain America and the nature of American ideals
• [04:05] Black Panther’s cultural significance
• [07:36] Coates on media objectivity and coverage of Trump
• [10:54] On activism versus journalism
• [13:07] The Cornel West controversy and the limits of “public intellectual” discourse
• [16:41] Critiques of Obama and the power of symbolism
• [22:07] Trump as reaction, not product, of the Obama presidency
• [24:15] Are we in temporary regression or the norm?
• [26:38] Limits of journalism in persuading the resistant
• [29:14] Writing for oneself, not for “Racism 101” explanations
• [32:13] Why Coates has no curiosity about interviewing Trump
• [35:28] What would move the privileged to change?
• [36:26] Real costs of equality would require “loss of whiteness and its suite of privileges”
• [39:13] Why he couldn’t have written "Between the World and Me" to a daughter
• [41:12] Why Coates left Twitter
• [45:19] Research and continuity in comics vs. nonfiction

Conclusion

Through humor, deep insight, and hard-won skepticism, Ta-Nehisi Coates offers a clear-eyed assessment of race, democracy, and media in America. The conversation traverses comics, history, activism, and culture with candid reflections, forceful critiques, and some laughter, making for an engaging episode that challenges listeners to reassess progress, symbolism, and their own roles in the story of the American idea.