Podcast Summary: The Atlantic Interview – Yossi Klein Halevi

Podcast: The David Frum Show (The Atlantic)
Episode Title: The Atlantic Interview: Yossi Klein Halevi
Date: May 2, 2018
Host: Jeffrey Goldberg (Editor-in-Chief, The Atlantic)
Guest: Yossi Klein Halevi (Israeli author and journalist)

Brief Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Jeffrey Goldberg and Yossi Klein Halevi, whose new book, Letters to My Palestinian Neighbor, seeks to bridge understanding between Israelis and Palestinians. The discussion explores the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the emotional and moral realities for Israelis, the impact of the separation wall, the challenges of two competing narratives of indigeneity, and the varied perspectives within both Israeli and American Jewry. Halevi also reflects on the implications of regional security dynamics, particularly the Iran deal, and addresses the necessity—and limitations—of mutual narrative recognition.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Yossi Klein Halevi’s Mission: Bridging Narratives

• Dual Commitments: Halevi explains that his writing merges two lifelong commitments: articulating the Israeli narrative and fostering outreach to the Muslim world.

  "The quality, maybe even the fate, of Jewish life around the world in the 21st century will be largely determined by our relationship with 1.7 billion Muslims." (03:38)

Living on Jerusalem’s Edge: The Separation Barrier

• Personal Geography: Halevi lives in French Hill, the last row of houses in Jerusalem, overlooking Palestinian villages divided by the physical separation barrier. He describes its impact:

  "What happens when you live with that kind of horrific intrusion, that that physical barrier, is that your eye really learns not to see." (04:51)

• Moral Dilemma of the Wall:

  "I'm horrified by the wall that keeps my children safe... it's left this scar, a permanent scar that's a reminder of our failure, of the failure of both sides to try to heal this wound." (05:28, 06:03)

• Pre-Wall Openness vs. Security Reality: Before the wall, there was more movement and a "sense of expansiveness" between communities, but the trauma of the Second Intifada made the wall essential in Halevi's view. (06:14-07:57)

Competing Tragedies: Indigeneity, National Narratives, and Settlements

• Root of Conflict: The foundational tragedy is the mutual denial of each side's indigeneity. Uprooting settlements alone would not solve the underlying conflict:

  "If we were to uproot every settlement tomorrow and pull back to the 67 lines, it would not change the nature of the conflict." (08:40)

• Dual ‘Right of Return’:

  "The settler movement is the Jewish equivalent of the Palestinian demand for the right of return... there are really two rights of return because there are two indigenous peoples that are competing over the same little land." (12:01)

• The Necessity and Danger of ‘Romantic History’: Both societies’ maximalist claims are emotionally understandable but politically perilous:

  "Romantic history is very dangerous when it's welded to power." (12:01)

Complexities of Withdrawal and Wariness of Unilateralism

• Gaza Disengagement: Halevi stands by supporting the Gaza pullout, recounting his trauma as a soldier during the First Intifada and what occupation entails; yet he recognizes the cost.

  "The only way you can suppress a popular uprising is through a series of petty humiliations. You create a system of control... something has to change." (09:20, 10:14)

• Unilateral Withdrawal: Considers it a last-resort option, recognizing the dangers of Hamas taking over territory, but acknowledges the moral burden of continued occupation.

  "If five or ten years from now there's still no chance for an agreement...then I see a unilateral withdrawal as our last desperate pullback option." (14:53)

What American Jews Miss – Left and Right Perspectives

• On the Right: Many American right-wing Jews do not accept Palestinian peoplehood as real:

  "There really is a Palestinian people. And I discovered the reality and the power of Palestinian identity by getting a rock thrown at my head... They are ready to do what I was ready to do as a teenage Jewish militant defender of the Jews." (15:08, 15:41)

• On the Left: Parts of the Jewish left, in Halevi's view, engage in "emotional Holocaust denial"—focusing only on the lesson of not being brutal, without internalizing the necessity of Jewish self-defense:

  "If you're a post Holocaust Jewish, and the only takeaway you have from the Holocaust is that we have to be nice to other people, there's something missing." (18:39, 18:54)

• One-dimensionality of Political Camps:

  "If you don't have both of those sensibilities, then you are a one-dimensional Jew. And the right and the left, to my mind really belong to the same camp...of the simple Jews, the simplistic Jews." (26:17, 26:57)

Iran, Regional Threats, and Strategic Alliances

• On the Iran Deal: Halevi argues that skeptics’ warnings are coming true, with Iran empowering proxy forces and controlling territory in the region:

  "Iran today effectively controls four Arab countries... The concession of the trade off for Iran postponing its nuclear ambitions was the empowerment of Iran as the regional Muslim conventional power." (20:51)

• Consequence: New Alliances:

  "...the unintended consequence of this deal...is that it has created a Sunni Israeli alliance against the deal." (22:34)

• Immediate vs. Long-Term Danger: The Iran deal may have frozen nuclear development short-term, but Halevi is skeptical about its sufficiency:

  "Those facilities are frozen, but they're frozen on the nuclear threshold. So the fact that they're frozen from a strategic point of view is irrelevant." (24:08)

Credibility and Morality in Policy

• On Palestinian Front: Advocates for more Israeli flexibility on issues where core security is not at stake, to bolster moral and political legitimacy—especially regarding African asylum seekers. (24:42, 26:17)
• Two Biblical Imperatives:

  "Jewish history speaks...with two commanding voices...remember you were strangers in the land of Egypt...don't be brutal. Second: remember what the tribe of Amalek did to you...don't be naive." (17:19, 18:25)

The Power and Limits of Narrative Engagement

• Dialogue with Palestinians: Halevi is realistic yet hopeful; his book is already receiving varied responses from Palestinians.

  "I'm a writer, that's all. I'm not a politician. All I can do is write. And so I'm writing to my Palestinian neighbor and trying to explain who I am." (28:02)

• Attempt at Narrative Healing: The book is translated into Arabic for free download to encourage direct engagement. (28:36)
• Addressing Fellow Israelis: Encourages Israeli society not to forget the danger of becoming permanent occupiers alongside the danger of existential threats. (28:38)

Is There Any Solution Other Than Two States?

• Creative Proposals: Recognizes new ideas such as a confederation—“two states, one homeland”—but sees practical limitations. (31:09)
• Two-State Solution as Default: While not sacred, the two-state framework remains, in his view, the only realistic alternative to permanent conflict:

  "Partition, which is the unloved solution to my mind, still has no alternative." (32:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the wall and the moral conflict:

  "I'm horrified by the wall that keeps my children safe." – Yossi Klein Halevi (05:28)

• On Palestinian and Israeli indigeneity:

  "There are really two rights of return because there are two indigenous peoples that are competing over the same little land." – Yossi Klein Halevi (12:01)

• On American Jewish perceptions:

  "The right has convinced themselves that the Palestinians don't actually exist, and the left has convinced themselves that the Palestinians are entirely benign as a political movement." – Jeffrey Goldberg (19:31)

• On the lessons of Jewish history:

  "If you don't have both of those sensibilities, then you are a one-dimensional Jew." – Yossi Klein Halevi (26:57)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Introduction & Purpose of the Book – 02:56
• Living beside the Wall, Moral Dilemma – 03:54–07:57
• Settlements, Indigeneity, and ‘Romantic History’ – 08:39–13:36
• Unilateral Withdrawal: Left vs. Right Mornings – 13:44–14:53
• What the American Jewish Right Gets Wrong – 15:08–16:40
• What the Jewish Left Gets Wrong, Holocaust Lessons – 17:19–19:10
• Iran Deal & Changing Middle East Alliances – 19:59–22:46
• Israel’s Moral Standing & Policy (African Asylum Seekers) – 24:42–26:17
• Dialogue with Palestinian Neighbors, Narrative Healing – 27:30–31:03
• Confederations vs. Two-State Solution – 31:03–32:30

Tone and Language

The conversation is candid, nuanced, and reflective—blending personal anecdotes, historical analysis, and moral wrestling. Both speakers probe controversial issues with seriousness and humor, maintaining a collegial, searching tone:

"You can have your own podcast where you yell at yourself." – Jeffrey Goldberg (13:52)

Conclusion

This rich, wide-ranging interview provides listeners with a layered understanding of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as seen by one of Israel’s most thoughtful voices. It's an invaluable resource for anyone seeking to grasp the emotional, historical, and political complexity of the situation—both within Israel and across the diaspora.