The David Frum Show

Episode: “The End of the American Empire”

Date: November 19, 2025
Host: David Frum (The Atlantic)
Guest: Margaret MacMillan (Historian, Oxford University)

Overview

In this episode, host David Frum explores whether the United States is seeing the “end of the American Empire”—not in terms of military decline, but the unraveling of the American idea and its international norms. With historian Margaret MacMillan, Frum examines how America’s approach to international relations has shifted from ideal-driven leadership to transactional power and what that means for allies, adversaries, democracy, and the legacy the U.S. leaves behind.

Key Topics and Insights

I. Prelude: Gifts for the Emperor and What They Mean (01:11 – 15:34)

• Frum draws a parallel between ancient and modern power by recounting a 5th-century Roman mission to Attila the Hun and recent stories of foreign governments lavishing gifts on President Trump.

  • “There was gold, there was silver, there were spices...all on their way to the ...barbarian chief.” (Frum, 02:10)
  • The Swiss gave Trump a personalized gold bar and other lavish gifts, apparently in exchange for lowered tariffs. Frum questions, “Does Switzerland respect the United States more after buying Donald Trump’s favor with a gold brick, or does it respect it less?” (Frum, 05:16)

• Frum discusses constitutional emoluments and their circumvention via presidential libraries, referencing a functional jet from Qatar, flowing personal wealth, and legal loopholes.

  • “The library has become a loophole. And it’s to the library that... the jumbo jet... is supposedly going to go... But... Trump will be able... to fly around in it...” (Frum, 07:05)

• Broader implications:

  • American leadership once depended on ideals and was “bigger than wealth or power” (Frum, 09:52); now, transactional relationships and disregard for constitutional norms dominate.
  • Frum suggests the U.S. now risks becoming little more than another extractive empire:

    “The mark of a civilization is that it does leave something behind... That’s what we thought the United States was, not some extractive regime like Attila’s.” (Frum, 14:06)

II. Changing U.S. Foreign Policy and International Order (16:35 – 51:42)

A. The Legacy of U.S. Leadership and Its Retraction

• Questioning the "end of empire":

  • Frum to MacMillan: Is U.S. withdrawal (from leadership and rules) undermining the international order, echoing past failures when America retreated (e.g., the interwar period)? (Frum, 17:13)

• MacMillan argues:

  • International order is only as good as its “most powerful nations,” and the U.S.’s post-WWII involvement was key.

    “If you want to build an international organization and an international order, then you’ve got to get the good powers in.” (MacMillan, 18:19)

  • When the U.S. drops its commitment—to rules, allies, and international law—others (like Russia) follow.

    “We now see United States... which really doesn’t seem to care about any of that... makes its own rules, breaks whatever norms and rules and ignores whatever values it doesn’t like.” (MacMillan, 19:57)

B. America’s New Approach to the Hemisphere and the World

• Venezuela and Gunboat Diplomacy Repeat:

  • The U.S., with talk of possible intervention in Venezuela, lacks Congressional or regional backing—acting “like a pirate state” (Frum, 19:22).
  • MacMillan: American action is “creating pushback” and reawakening “anti-Americanism” in Latin America.

    “Sending the gunboats... it’s back to the pre World War I period...” (MacMillan, 29:13)

• Greenland and Canada: Transactional, Not Strategic

  • Discussion of administration pressuring Greenland and alienating Canada.
  • Frum connects this to a broader psychological “retreat under pressure,” masked by bluster.

    “...It doesn’t have to make sense, it just has to make the people running the policy feel empowered and dominant... Trumpism is a psychological coping mechanism for feelings of weakness...” (Frum, 23:52)

• Zones of Influence are Dangerous

  • MacMillan: The return of “zones of influence” is “a formula for instability,” as they always provoke unwanted outside meddling and resistance from those inside the zone.
  • “The idea that you can have these neat little boxes and just ignore the rest of the world... is unrealistic.” (MacMillan, 25:01)

C. Abandonment of Multilateralism and Predictability

• Tariffs as Political Weapons

  • MacMillan and Frum discuss how postwar U.S. leadership was anchored in stable, predictable relationships and multilateral systems; under Trump, tariffs are tools of personal or political grievance.

    “The use of tariffs to force political change or... just to punish someone you don’t like...” (MacMillan, 33:48)

• Moral and Predictable Leadership is Gone

  • MacMillan: Postwar U.S. had a unique power because it was admired, seen as living up to its ideals, correcting its mistakes, and attracting allies “by invitation.”

    “The United States built an empire by invitation... which gave it tremendous power, far more than the Soviet Union ever had.” (MacMillan, 34:56)

  • Now: “...it makes the United States feel more like a semi developed country that the moods of the president matter [so much]...” (Frum, 34:07)

III. Is America an Empire—and What Ends an Empire? (43:44 – 51:42)

• Is the United States an Empire?

  • MacMillan: Yes, in many respects—has “behaved like an empire,” especially in the Caribbean and Mexico.

    “I would say the United States has been an empire and in many ways still behaves like an empire. Not that Americans would probably agree with.” (MacMillan, 44:17)

• How do empires end?

  • When those inside stop believing it’s worth the price.

    “When the peoples who are in the empire no longer want to be part of it and they leave or they rebel.” (MacMillan, 45:32)

• Frum expands:

  • U.S. global power was always based on mutual benefit and “invitation.” As the U.S. withdraws, allies become anxious, adversaries emboldened.

    “The lattice work of agreements on which American power was based... seem to be dissolving, and... presence... is in retreat and it’s moving fast.” (Frum, 46:50)

• A world learning to live without the American guarantee:

  • Frum: “Some people will be sad. The allies in continental Europe will be sad. Canadians will certainly be sad. Some... in South America will be relieved... But [many] ...just have to make our new deal with the new arrangement. That’s the eternity of politics.” (Frum, 49:32)
  • MacMillan: The alternative might not be kinder—China and Russia’s record on minorities and autonomy is poor.

IV. European Security and the Post-American World (51:34 – 52:32)

• Security vacuum for Europe:

  • New acts of sabotage in Poland (51:42) symbolize the risk:

    “We may discover that post-American world is not just a topic for think tanks... it may be our reality, and it may be a lot less pleasant than the world it replaced.” (Frum, 52:29)

• Memorable farewell:

  • “Thank you. I’m not sure we’ve cheered ourselves up, but it’s been a pleasure to talk to you.” (MacMillan, 52:32)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Does Switzerland respect the United States more after buying Donald Trump’s favor with a gold brick, or does it respect it less?”
  — David Frum (05:16)

• “We now see United States under this present administration, which... really doesn’t seem to care about any of that, that makes its own rules, breaks whatever norms and rules and ignores whatever values it doesn’t like.”
  — Margaret MacMillan (19:57)

• “It’s back to the pre–World War I period... where the Americans thought they could bring in Latin America under control by sending in the military. And it didn’t work then and I don’t think it will work now.”
  — Margaret MacMillan (29:13)

• “The United States built an empire by invitation... which gave it tremendous power, far more than the Soviet Union ever had.”
  — Margaret MacMillan (34:56)

• “...the United States has behaved like an empire in the Caribbean. It’s behaved like an empire in Mexico... so I would say the United States has been an empire and in many ways still behaves like an empire.”
  — Margaret MacMillan (44:17)

• “When the peoples who are in the empire no longer want to be part of it and they leave or they rebel.”
  — Margaret MacMillan (45:32)

• “We may discover that post-American world is not just a topic for think tanks and seminars. It may be our reality, and it may be a lot less pleasant than the world it replaced.”
  — David Frum (52:29)

Episode Flow: Major Segments & Timestamps

• Opening Parable: Rome, Attila, and America (01:11 – 09:52)
• Emoluments, Gifts, and Decline of Legal Norms (09:52 – 15:34)
• Conversation with Margaret MacMillan: International Order, America’s Role (16:35 – 43:30)
• Debating “American Empire” and Its Unraveling (43:44 – 51:42)
• European Security, New Realities, Closing Thoughts (51:34 – 52:36)

Conclusion

Frum and MacMillan paint a sobering portrait of what America’s retreat from principle, predictability, and partnership means for the world. As transactionalism replaces ideals and the U.S. discards its “empire by invitation” for something more self-serving, both historian and host wonder whether America will leave anything behind but "a memento of shame and disgrace"—and whether anyone will step into the breach for democracy, legality, or hope.