B (7:44)

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A (8:39)

Lord Andrew Roberts Baron Roberts of Belgravia is one of Britain's foremost historians and men of letters. He is known internationally for his 2009 book the Storm of War, which received the British Army Military Book of the year award for 2010. Also among his roughly two dozen books are the Evolution of Warfare, co authored with General David Petraeus, and the Aiken Memorandum, a political thriller. Roberts chaired the 7 October Parliamentary Commission whose report draws on forensic evidence, survivor testimonies and open source footage to document the crimes committed by Hamas and its allies during the sneak attack on Israel of October 7, 2023. In November 22, Roberts was elevated to the House of Lords. My own personal favorite among his many books is his biography of the great high Victorian statesman Lord Salisbury, underrated among Britain's wittiest prime ministers, attributed to him as a remark when a supporter suggested that maybe he considered changing a few things in Britain, Salisbury is supposed to have replied, change, change. Aren't things bad enough already? But we are here today because of Andrew's work on Churchill, of whom he wrote an outstanding one volume life. In 2018. At a time of online attempted rehabilitation of the Third Reich, Nazism and Adolf Hitler, Lord Roberts is the man we need most urgently to hear from. Andrew, thank you so much for joining me today.

C (9:58)

Thank you very much indeed for having me on, David, and thanks very much also for those very kind words.

A (10:03)

Let's start with something you have both observed and participated in, which is this crazed online rehabilitation in the American and English social media world of the or the attempt to do an online rehabilitation of the legacy of Adolf Hitler and the Third Reich. What is going on with these crazy talkers and blood and podcasters?

C (10:25)

Well, they're attempting to attack Winston Churchill because he was epicentral in defeating Adolf Hitler. Of course, anti Semitism plays an absolutely central role to this as well. And they essentially argue. And it's. No, it's not a new thing. This is something that goes back second world war revisionism goes back to the 1960s, earlier that really the world was on the wrong side when it tried to stop Hitler from destroying communism after the Operation Barbarossa in June 1941. And Churchill made a strategic error in not supporting Hitler and opposing Stalin. That's, I think, where it stems from. But of course, it's got massive modern connotations with regard to the United States and where the United States is in the world today.

A (11:20)

How is it that somebody decides, you know what? I'm trying to differentiate myself from a sea of online voices. I could talk about a lot of things, I could have a lot of opinions. I could go into sports podcasting for goodness sakes. But no, my distinctive value added proposition is going to be the defense of Hitler, antisemitism and the Third Reich. And by the way, it seems to work when you look at America's top podcasters in the political sphere at least. It is amazing how many of them find the rehabilitation of Nazi ideology their ticket to success.

C (11:52)

I think it's the very shock value, isn't it? We always used to call radio shock jocks because they try to sell, say, the most outrageous thing possible. Therefore, drawing attention to oneself. And that is the nature of the Internet, is that the more shocking you are, the more likely you are to appeal to the lowest form of human nature? I suppose so. It's built into the algorithm of the Internet, in a sense. But also I think that as well as wanting to shock and be perverse and so on, there's also a very even darker side to all of this, which, as I say, is anti Semitism. And I think it has contributed enormously to the present rise of anti Semitism in the world.

A (12:35)

Which do you think is cause and which is effect? Do you start as an anti Semite and then want to rehabilitate the Third Reich, or do you start by wanting to rehabilitate the Third Reich? Because you look at a lot of old picture postcards and imaginary scenes for an old and leaning Riefenstahl movies and think, well, that's an accurate depiction of reality. They must have had a point about the Jews. Which goes first, this cultish attraction to the Third Reich or the anti Semitism driving the cultish attraction?

C (13:01)

I think they go absolutely hand in hand. I think they're in lockstep, both of them. And of course, they then do lead you on to a whole load of other views about the world that are essentially anti democratic, anti Western, anti civilization, anti Christianity, anti culture, as well as the. This primary motivating force of antisemitism and a desire to shock.

A (13:27)

So you're led from Third Reichism to pro assadism, to apologies for Hezbollah and Hamas to defense of Iran to, I mean, one crazy thing after another.

C (13:36)

And Putin, of course, as well, because you admire Putin enormously because he invades countries and is a strong man. And I'm afraid there could be overlaps. We've seen that there are overlaps in all this manosphere incel thing as well, that you think it's macho to invade countries and blow up buildings and send tanks over borders and so on. So that also something that Hitler did and Putin is doing, and you want to try and make an apology for that too.

A (14:04)

All right, so let me draw on your historian's hat or your historian's expertise for a moment, because there may be some basic facts about this that people don't know. So let's start with this. Who won and who lost the Second World War?

C (14:16)

The Germans, Italians and Japanese most definitely lost. The Russians, Americans, British and British Commonwealth won.

A (14:28)

So if you have an impression that the Nazis had the most formidable war machine in the history of the world and most effective society organized for war, you do bump into this problem.

C (14:39)

They did lose, and they were also defeated by the other people that you think of as slavish Untermensch. You know, the, the Russians are people who you despise. You don't despise the British because they're Aryans and so on. So it, it bumps into your racial theories in at every stage. I mean, not least, of course, because ultimately the Japanese are not Aryan peoples, but they're your allies against various countries, like, I don't know, Denmark, who are Aryan people. So it just doesn't make any kind of sense on. On its own, even according to its own really weird and screwed up ideology,

A (15:20)

the toll that Hitler's regime took on the Germans. One of the reasons that Hitler and Nazism are so discredited is because the Germans have led the way in saying, you know what? This was not good for us either. If we had stayed on the path of democracy and peace, all the prosperity we had in the 1950s, we could have had in the 1940s.

C (15:38)

Well, that's right. And also, of course, the Fuhrer did declare war on Germany at the end in the very last days in 1945, he wanted to destroy the reservoirs and the railways and basically make Germany completely ungovernable, regardless of how many Germans starved in the process. So as well as declaring war on all of those Untermensch countries and Britain, as you say, as a result of Britain having continue to fight, he also finally declared war on his own country.

A (16:07)

Right. Just as he left orders to blow up Paris and destroy that. Orders that were mercifully ignored by the German commander in chief in the Paris vicinity. He left. Blow up every waterworks, blow up every power plant. Make sure that if Germany does lose the war, the German people then die of starvation. And that was Hitler's idea, not something that the United States and Britain did to them. The Americans and British fed the Germans after the war.

C (16:29)

That's right, yes. Von Choltitz is who you're talking about, who didn't let Paris burn. And of course it was also the junior commanders that refused to carry out the Fuhrer's final wishes with regard to basically turning Germany back into an agrarian starving economy.

A (16:48)

Right, let's talk a little bit about the attempt to overturn the reputation of Winston Churchill. As you and I speak, Winston Churchill is still on the British five pound note, but there's a project of the British government to take him off. I forget what the. Some kind of bird I think they want to replace him with.

C (17:05)

Yeah, it's not just Churchill. They're taking off all of the famous people, you know, all of the writers and the people we're proud of, and they're going to be. They're going to be swapped for various fauna. It's a birds and dogs and things like that. I think there's going to be a public consultation and it's already. The British people typically are taking it as a huge joke and. And they're putting forward completely absurd animals that are going to do. If it's done on a vote, then all hell's going to break loose, frankly.

A (17:41)

So. But it's. This is symbolic of a larger trend which is even within Britain and certainly outside Britain, an attempt to make sure Churchill a villain of world history rather than the great hero of the 20th century.

C (17:52)

That's right. And we saw this, of course, most. It has been going on, as I like to always point out, this has been going along on a long time. David Irving tried it back in the 70s and 80s in a sense. Obviously Goebbels himself demonized Churchill. There have been lots of books attacking Churchill quite recently we've had three or Four in a row.

A (18:16)

Let me put a pause there because not everyone will recognize the name David Irving, who's a huge hero to many of the other people on the Internet far right. So tell us about the career of David Irving and why he's so central in fabricating these myths of Third Reich rehabilitation and Winston Churchill defamation.

C (18:33)

Well, David Irving is a neo Nazi historian. He, because of his extreme right wing views, was able to contact a lot of the widows of leading Nazis back in the 70s and 80s and therefore was able to get quite a lot of information, including new information. So he posed as an historian, but unfortunately he was somebody who didn't believe in the Holocaust, for example. And there was a huge libel action against him that was taken out by a very brave writer called Deborah Lipstick that who won against him.

A (19:11)

There are so many things to say here, but it was because neo Nazis will often say he was sued for his views. It was David Irving who initiated the libel action against Deborah Lipstadt, not the other way around.

C (19:20)

Sorry, you're quite right for calling him a, for calling him a Holocaust denial.

A (19:24)

Wasn't it she, he sued her. It was he who tried to suppress her speech, not she who tried to suppress his speech. That's, I think that's a very important thing to ram home. And in Britain where it is so easy to win a libel action, he lost.

C (19:38)

And yes, I attended court, actually, I watched it. It was better than any West End show. It was absolutely fascinating, historian after historian getting up and talking about the evidence that proved that there was a Holocaust. And also of course, that David owing and being had denied it. But therefore this does make him into a hero of the extreme right.

A (20:01)

I want to say one more thing about him. He's also crucial in elaborating the myth of the Dresden bombing. Dresden is a very beautiful city in eastern Germany now thankfully substantially rebuilt. It was also an important railway node. It was the last unbombed city in the Reich and it was, it was hit by the Western Allies in the last days of World War II and 20,000 people were killed. And this is a, obviously a major disaster, but not as big as the Hamburg bombing or the terrible bombings of Tokyo. For reasons that are kind of obscure to me, the Nazis in their last days decided to make a propaganda issue of this. And Irving became the person who took the 20,000 to 30,000 authentic casualties and created a much bigger magnification of the number through falsification of archives and other things. But so you will know the story,

C (20:48)

I mean, he claimed that 200,000 people or more than 200,000 people had died, which actually was next to impossible demographically. There were perfectly good reasons to bomb Dresden, good strategic reasons, plus we were asked to by the Soviets. But it was the fact that the Gauleiter there had basically pocketed the money he was given to build massive air raid shelters that led to larger than expected collected deaths. But Irving was the man behind the modern creation of the myth. Goebbels started the myth originally, but Irving backed it up. It's therefore the sort of understandable why he should become the godfather of the, of the modern revisionists. You know, he's their hero. The modern revisionists, on the other hand, have far, far, I mean, they've gone far further than even David Irving. Primarily of course, because of the Internet. Irving was working before the Internet. But whereas when Tucker Carlson interviewed Daryl Cooper, for example, who said that Winston Churchill was the greatest villain of the Second World War, 33 million people downloaded that show. So he was able there at the modern revisionists were able to reach a far wider audience than ever. David Irving was.

A (22:14)

Tell us who Daryl Cooper is.

C (22:16)

Well, I, I tried to find out when I heard about these moronic remarks of his and the answer is that he's somebody who, who Tucker Carlson calls the most consequential American historian writing today. But he's never written a history book. This fellow, he has a, he goes on podcast a lot and make sort of long form podcasts which don't have any intellectual respectability whatsoever, which no academic has taken of any, of any serious note has taken. I mean, I can offhand, you know, tell you a few dozen historians who've got American historians who've got a genuine right to be considered more seriously than Mr. Cooper.

A (23:00)

One of the things that makes you a historian rather than a just a journalist like me is the historian gets the quotes from the place they came from. So if the quote comes from a state paper, they consult the state paper. If it comes from a memoir, they consult the memoir. They go to the original thing. The journalist says, well, I trust if this thing from the state paper is reproduced in the work of Andrew Roberts. I trust Andrew Roberts. And so I get my quote from the Andrew Roberts book. But there's always the possibility, even with an Andrew Roberts book, of a mistake.

C (23:30)

Oh yeah.

A (23:30)

And so, and so the, the difference in an historian is the historian goes to the source, the journalist goes to the secondary source. And my impression from listening to Cooper is he partly because he doesn't have the languages which historians are supposed to do. He goes to the secondary source, and it's often a neo Nazi secondary source. And there are various kind of verbal clues that this Churchill quote he discovered, not from reading the Churchill speech, not from reading Hansard, but via some much more sinister secondary detour.

C (23:57)

And actually, the laziness of it is also pretty reprehensible because nowadays, if you go on to the International Churchill Society website or if you consult the Churchill documents at Churchill Archive Center, a lot of which are online, it doesn't actually take that much. It's not that difficult to get the correct quote. I've got upstairs the 20 volumes of Churchill's documents. Now, not everybody's going to have those, but they are available online, so it's not that hard to do. But, but you're right, he doesn't, he doesn't bother to do that.

A (24:32)

But there's also something about Internet culture that makes us vulnerable to this. So when David Irving, his primary means of comment, communicating with the world was, was through books. And because he wanted to be taken seriously as an historian, he complied with the formal architecture of an historical work, which is footnotes and links and footnotes and quotes. So you would say, you make your argument that Hitler was completely innocent of the Holocaust, that he didn't know about it, you cite a bunch of sources, and people can then read. The people who are encountering your work, they read it, they have the book open, they see the footnote, and they can then wander down the hall, if they're in a library, to the shelf and pull the thing you cite off the shelf and see, did you quote it correctly? And as John Lukac did in the Hitler of History point out, oh, you introduced a series of very malicious mistakes into your reading. But the preferred form of modern Neo Nazism is verbal or verbal and visual. That is, there's no text there, they speak, and their favorite form is not to say, let's not have a historical controversy in writing, but let's debate in form. So if I tell a lie and the person I'm talking to is not as nimble, not as well informed, the lie sales passed in a way that it can't do in true historical debate, which is done in writing with footnotes.

C (25:47)

Precisely. Right. And it's, and it's all part of their modus operandi, and they have to do it that way because, of course, if they did it the other way, we'd be able to catch them out all the time. So it's much, much easier to lie verbally than, than on the page. If you want that lie to survive longer than the amount of time it takes for somebody to check you.

A (26:09)

Can you take us through what you think are one or two of the most common lies about Churchill and Churchill in relationship to the Second World War?

C (26:16)

Oh, golly. Well, there are dozens of them. I don't know. I wonder whether it's best to do it chronologically or just. He's supposed to have been involved in secret peace negotiations with Mussolini and apparently the proof of that is wrapped up in a box at the bottom of Lake Como. He is, of course, supposed to have deliberately made the Bengal famine worse than it actually was already, for which there's no proof whatsoever. He's supposed to have let Coventry be destroyed even though he knew that Coventry was going to be attacked in order to preserve the secrecy of the ultra decrypts. Oh, gosh, there are, there are, there are so many. I mean, all the way through his life, by the way he's supposed to have sunk the Lusitania as well, is another one.

A (27:15)

But he's also. Isn't the central lie that he was supposed to be in the thrall of Jewish bankers. That's. That's the big thing that the Jews invented Churchill in order to make war on white Western civilization.

C (27:25)

Yeah.

A (27:25)

And Churchill, because he was, for a man in his time, strikingly not anti Semitic, although not purely so, but strikingly non anti Semitic for a man of his time and class. That therefore he's some kind of tool of the Jews in their war on the West. On the white West.

C (27:40)

Yes. I mean, this again has been around for a very long time. Oscar Wilde's lover, Bosie, Lord Douglas Hamilton was a believer in this theory and he. And Churchill actually sued him where he said that Churchill had underplayed the Battle of Jutland for. For some financial reason that the Jews were behind. The Jews are blamed for. For as you say, creating Churchill or if not creating him, then at least buying him in the 1930s. Now, he did have rich Jewish friends who occasionally did bail him out. So that's the way that they tie in this sort of, you know, Protocols of the Elders of Zion kind of conspiracy theory. But there's no example.

A (28:24)

He also had rich, not rich, non Jewish friends who bailed him out because one of the. One of the requirements of being a church. Old friend.

C (28:32)

Yeah, yeah. No, Churchill. Churchill was broke his entire life, basically. He didn't get into the black until he was in his 70s.

A (28:40)

Once you introduced me to. You introduced me to a wonderful book about Churchill's finances. What was it called no More Champagne.

C (28:45)

That's right, yeah. David Lowe, very good book. Yeah.

A (28:48)

He would periodically write letters to his wife instructing her on domestic economy. And the first thing is we're going to eliminate champagne at lunch. That's. That's how we're really.

C (28:56)

That's right. And actually I asked Mary, his daughter Winston and Clementine, Churchill's daughter, Mary Simes, and she said that that lasted about three days.

A (29:09)

His stance was cigars were expensive, Cuban cigars. Cigars were only to be served at the discretion of Churchill. The box wasn't to be opened for guests to help themselves.

C (29:17)

Yeah, that's right, exactly. I don't suppose that lasted terribly long either. But the thing was that he was always broke. But he also, quite rightly, I think his attitude was not really to. To try and save spending money because that never worked, but to just work harder and to. And that's the reason that we have 800 articles and 37 books, you know, comprise writing 51 volumes. And he. And he wrote more than Shakespeare and Dickens combined. You know, it's because he had to, because he was. He was broke. And as you say, non Jewish friends bailed him out as well. But there's no example of any Jew ever asking him for anything at all as a result of bailing him out. And some people, like Sir A. Bailey, I think Sir Henry Strakosh gave him money in their wills. So there's clearly nothing that they were after as a result, because the money didn't actually get given to Churchill until they died.

A (30:14)

Well, because the impression one has has of him is he was not just a deeply admirable man, but also a highly personally lovable man. And so people who were his friends who were good with money and knew that he was horrible at it, would say, this is something I can do in testimony to my. Not only my admiration for him, but my love for him.

C (30:31)

That's right. And Bernie Baruch being another great example of that. The New York banker who basically allowed. If Churchill's stocks and shares went up, then Churchill kept the money, and if they went down, then Bernie Baruch would cover the difference. But again, there was no quid pro quo for this, apart from friendship, admiration, love the man. So of course the anti Semites immediately pounce on. On this aspect of Churchill's character to try to insinuate that he was in the pocket of the Jews and so on. And therefore he took the British. According to this theory, he took the British Empire into war in order to destroy the man who was attempting to destroy the Jews, I. E. Adolf Hitler. This completely ignores the fact of course that he was out of office throughout the 1930s. One of the things that Daryl Cooper accuses Churchill of having done was to have made the Second World War worse after the, after Hitler's invasion of Poland. But he wasn't actually in the government until Hitler had invaded Poland. He didn't get into the government until after the invasion and then he doesn't become prime minister of course until the Nazis had already invaded Holland and Belgium and Luxembourg. So just on chronological grounds, none of these accusations really add up logically just in terms solely of rational argument.

A (32:04)

One of the differences between real history. There are many differences between real history and this kind of Internet history. But real historians are always very attuned to which event happened first. And one of the basic rules of history is an event that happened after an earlier event cannot have caused the earlier event because it came second in time. And time flows only one way.

C (32:26)

Yes, exactly. And you get this of course, with everything to do with Russia. With Hitler's invasion of Russia in June 1941, it comes a year and a bit after Hitler's invasion of France and one leads on, on to the other. And to try to therefore accuse Churchill of trying to save communism in 1941 as a result of anything that happens, it, it's very, very clear that the reason that he made peace, made an alliance with Russia, Soviet Russia, even though he hated communism was because the, the Russians were fighting Hitler and he recognized that it Hitler to be defeated.

A (33:11)

That's a very important point. Just to stress here the most famous of Churchill speeches that we shall fight them on the beaches, we shall never surrender. At the time those were given, Britain's allies were Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, Greece. That's about it. And the Soviet Union was Hitler's most important ally. And at the time of the fall of France, Hitler drove into France with Soviet provided fuel and the German tanks were made out of materials that many of which came from the Soviet Union. And so this is both a Soviet lie and now a Russian lie and an. And a not neo Nazi lie to say that, to forget this key fact when, when Hitler, when Churchill came to power after and fought the battle of France and lost Hitler and the Soviet Union were allies, not enemies.

C (33:56)

Yeah. And the Communist party in Britain opposed the war until 22 June 1941. So you have communist trade unionists in British factories causing trouble even during the battle of Britain.

A (34:10)

Communists in the United States too. Let me take you into the present Day, because you are a rare historian who is not only active in contemporary discussions, but was called upon by your own parliament to write the definitive report on the Hamas atrocities after October 7. I won't take you into that field right now because of respect for time. But drawing on the expertise you acquired through there, I want you to help us understand a debate that is going on, which is many of the people who advocate these crackpot theories of history were, until a minute ago, big supporters of President Trump. And not to accuse Donald Trump, who seems pretty hazy on most of history. I don't know that he would have a side on any of these disputes. Maybe New York nightclubs in the 1970s. He's kind of an expert on that. But there is, there seems to be this split in the MAGA world between the voting bloc and the members of Congress who are mostly aligned with President Trump and supporting his actions against Iran, and then the MAGA influencers online who are increasingly radically opposed to it. Do you have. Can you explain to us how this, how this conflict is working and what it means?

C (35:22)

I suppose, in a sense, of course, the MAGA opponents of Iran do have the point that they were sold a putt by Trump, who did promise no forever wars, no interventions and so on, especially not in the Middle east after what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. So one can understand how some of them feel lied to and let down. But the isolationist wing, who are the people who feel that, again, have a very long history. The phrase America first was first used by Charles Lindbergh and the anti interventionists who wanted America not to go to war against Nazi Germany. So here again, you have very strong historical echoes. And, and so people who consider themselves to be on the sort of ultra right of the MAGA movement, in a sense, do feel sort of betrayed and, and let down.

A (36:25)

Well, I, I don't know that we want to call them isolationists, because the ultra right wing of the MAGA movement was very keen for a war against Denmark to seize Greenland. They were interested in fighting Panama to take back the Panama Canal. And they raised no objections to Donald Trump's repeated talk of annexing Canada, some kind of 51st state, although he never intended to give Canada any senators. So it wouldn't be a state, it would be kind of an occupied territory. So the MAG was very comfortable with violent action in the western hemisphere of a highly imperialist kind against people who are traditional American friends, like, like Denmark. Americans have been present, and you'll know better than me, but have been present. There's been An American military presence in Greenland with the consent of the Danish government since before the United States entered the Second World War, all during the Second World War and all during the Cold War. And the Danes would have gladly welcomed a larger American presence today if the Americans would have been willing to send it. So there was no objection, but there was this Imperial and MAGA had not a problem with that imperialist agenda. It is conflict with anti Western forces, whether it's Putin or the Iranians. That's what makes them upset.

C (37:30)

Yes, that's right. I mean in a sense also historically, of course, with regard to Southern America, to Venezuela and Panama, et cetera, that does tie in with the Monroe Doctrine. That goes back to 1823. So you know, that isn't a, a radical change from what, oh, I don't know Teddy Roosevelt would have been comfortable with. However, as you say, the time that the Maga, the ultra Maga people get very upset is when the west goes to war against people who scream death to America as, and tries to get the nuclear bomb. That, that it is an interesting aspect. We have the same thing here in, in England of course.

A (38:16)

Let's, let's wrap this up here with going back to the historical matter and would you give us a refresher of what the world would have looked like if in those crucial days when the British had to make the decision whether to follow Churchill's lead, whether to refuse the peace that Hitler offered after the fall of France. What would that world if we had taken the advice of the Pat Buchanans and the Tucker Carlson's and Britain had surrendered in the summer of 1940, what would the world look like today?

C (38:44)

Hitler wasn't asking for an all out surrender of Britain. He was asking for Britain to stay neutral in the future, in the future of the war. So we wouldn't have had the blitz, of course, we'd have probably been able to have hung on to the bits of the empire that he wasn't interested in and he would have been able to have attacked Russia with all of his armed forces, including 100% of the Luftwaffe rather than just 70% of it because he needed to keep 30% of it back to protect Germany, German cities against British bombing and also to protect France of course from an invasion. So there would have been a very different attitude I think in the United States. I can't see the United States getting involved and also terribly difficult for them to have worked out how they could have engaged with the Germans anyway in North Africa perhaps, but that's hardly any sort of Quick route through to Berlin. So you could have easily found, I mean it was touch and go in Russia. Of course, in the October of 1941, Stalin had his own personal train made ready to take him back beyond the Urals. The battle of Stalingrad could have gone either way as well. And of course the Germans did subject Leningrad to a grueling thousand day siege. So had the Germans won in Russia and pushed the Soviets back beyond the Urals, he would have been, Hitler would have been master of Europe from the Urals all the way through to Brest. And it would have been a catastrophe of course as it was 50% of Europe's Jews died in the Holocaust. 100% undoubtedly would have died under those circumstances while Hitler was also working to try and create a bomb which it would have been very difficult, I think for the United States to have made entirely on its own and funded if they weren't even involved in the war at all. Because nothing would have brought them in to fight against Germany, especially if they'd been attacked at Pearl harbor and Britain wasn't in the war. So there's a world in which Hitler could have, could have certainly survived the, the mid-1940s, maybe created a nuclear bomb and totally dominated the whole of Europe which would have left America ultimately very isolated.

A (41:16)

Yeah. And remember the Germans were ahead in rocket technology. So that's. The Americans have gotten the nuclear weapon first, but the delivery system the Germans would probably have got first, certainly.

C (41:26)

Yes, absolutely. There was no, you didn't have an American version of Wernher von Braun in the first part of the 1940s. So. Yeah, I mean Churchill's decision to fight on in 1940 is absolutely central to the survival of Western civilization. Which is in a way, which is why he's so unpopular with the revisionists because they would much prefer to see a world in which Hitler was dominating the world, did have the bomb, did wipe out the Jews and had his, their own, his own form of sort of Weltmacht, which is very, very different from the kind of Western civilization that we see today.

A (42:13)

The person who saw this all most clearly at the time was President Roosevelt who gave speeches about it which we, we don't read anymore because they seem so irrelevant until recently or seems so much a part of history. But Roosevelt warned in the summer of 40, 1940, after the fall of France that if we go down this path, if the Tucker Carlson's of this world had got their retrospective wish and the British government had made a kind of peace with Hitler and let him invade the Soviet Union and annihilate all the Jews of Europe, that the United States would never have been a free country again. It would have lived on half a planet. It would have sheltered in the smaller of the two hemispheres, and it would have had to live forever on a war footing, a full. Not a Cold War footing, but on a full war footing against this technologically advanced nuclear power with rockets on the Eurasian continent. That's what this was all about in 1940. And the development and peace that the world enjoyed after 1945 was a product of American power and British endurance. And had the British made the choice that is being recommended to them by all these fool loudmouth bloggers, their own childhoods would have been overhung by terror and fascism and, and tragedy. And they would not have enjoyed the life that we have so. The security that we have so taken for granted that we can entertain all these foolish, nonsensical, childish, ignorant opinions on the Internet. That was created because of the peace and security and wealth that the Western world enjoy because of Churchill's endurance and courage in that summer.

C (43:39)

I think you've put the. The full level of irony right up there. Yes, that's exactly. That's exactly right, David.

A (43:47)

Andrew, I understand. Can I ask you one last personal question? You understand you've just finished working on something. Can you share a little bit about what it is?

C (43:53)

Yes, Napoleon and His Marshals. It's a book about the relationship between the emperor and his 26 marshals. It's going to be coming out in America in November.

A (44:03)

And you have written the great rehabilitation of Napoleon in another biography. As someone who the Hitler Napoleon comparison breaks down because Napoleon was. Although he was a warlord, he did do a lot of good things too.

C (44:17)

Yeah, there's no comparison. There's no comparison. One of them is a. Is the Enlightenment on horseback and the other is the absolute opposition to the Enlightenment. No, that's going well. And then after that I'm going to write a biography of Benjamin Disraeli. So I've got until the year 2030 nicely cut out for me.

A (44:39)

You are a marvel, Andrew. Thank you so much for talking to me today.

C (44:42)

Thank you, David. I've much enjoyed it.

A (44:44)

Bye bye.

D (44:52)

John Stamos here in partnership with Cologuard. And I've got to say, so you're 45 or older and at average risk, so what? That doesn't mean your life comes to a halt. No way. You can still do all the fun things you've been doing, but it's time to take your health a little more seriously. Colon cancer screening needs to be on your docket, and it's as simple as the cologuard test. Don't worry, you got this.

A (45:17)

Thanks so much to Andrew Roberts for joining me today on the David Frum Show. My book this week is a novel by Gore Vidal published in 1973. I first read this book as a teenager. I return to it this past week because of some thoughts left behind by my discussion last week of the novel the Director by Daniel Kellman. That novel ponders the problem of a great artist, or someone we're invited to believe is a great artist, tangled in the moral compromises of making art under the conditions of the Third Reich. And we're asked to consider whether there is anything that can justify that kind of moral compromise. And the director comes to his own very ironic and understated conclusion about whether or not compromise and moral compromise justifies great art in the end, whether great art can be produced under conditions of moral compromise. I turned to Burr and Gore Vidal because it was a book I enjoyed very much as a teenager, and I enjoyed it because it was a pretty nasty piece of work, actually written by a pretty nasty man. Gore Vidal. Burr tells the story of the American Revolution's founding generation through the eyes of Aaron Burr, who even today remains kind of a villain of American history. And in 1973, building up to the bicentennial at a time when Americans, America's heroes, were taken much more at face value than they are today, Burr was the great outsider, a man hated both by Thomas Jefferson and by Alexander Hamilton. So he had to be bad. Gore Vidal took on Burr and used him to write a debunking novel about all the founding generation. The novel is set at the end of Burr's life in the 1830s, but we are constantly called back to the period of the Revolution and the Constitution. We're shown through Burr's eyes a George Washington who is stupid, vain, militarily incompetent, sexually dysfunctional and mercenary in his marriage. A man who, by the way, because Vidal can spare no form of mockery. We are introduced to George Washington as a man who walks with an ungainly waddle. Thomas Jefferson, the great hero of the Declaration of Independence, is shown as hypocritical, cowardly, manipulative, a schemer of every kind. And Alexander Hamilton gets slightly better pressed than the other two, but he is shown as someone who is brilliant but self seeking, arrogant, snobbish, contemptuous of others and profoundly two faced. Burr himself is a man Certainly with faults. We see that he, in late life marries for money and then steals from his wife. But we're invited to see him as, despite these foibles, amusing, entertaining, and his cynicism about everything and his lack of moral scruple is actually, we're invited to see this as a kind of higher wisdom. There is no irony about this. Gore Vidal does not introduce us to Burr as an unreliable narrator. In fact, there's another narrator of the book, a younger man who sees Burr with some distance. But we're invited to take Burr's view as the novelist view and therefore as our view. Now, Gore Vidal, I think his reputation is fading somewhat these days, but he was. I knew him a little bit in his lifetime. He was a thoroughly unpleasant person. You can see it in his interviews. He was spiteful and envious in his own right. I think he's best remembered now for a saying of his. He later tried to explain this away as a joke, but it reflected the authentic man. He is said to have said every. Or he takes credit for the line, every time a friend succeeds, I die a little. That's the man. And it is his own nastiness that fills the novel with its amusingness. That the novel is amusing because Burr is nasty. His story is told by a nasty person. And we're given a point of view that very much appealed to the adolescent smart aleck who wants to see history as it really was and. And not through some gauze of legend. So what we have here is, I think, not a great work of art, but a successful work of art that owes its success entirely to the unpleasantness and spitefulness of the novelist's character. Bad character produced pretty good art. So is our problem solved? I'm not so sure, because as I reread this book now, as a much older man, I thought, what would a truly great artist have done with this material? He would have allowed us to see through and past Burr in a way that, say, Shakespeare allows us to see through and past Richard iii, or the way that John Milton allows us to see through and past his Lucifer, who gets all the best lines in Paradise Lost, and to understand that while we can enjoy the spiteful cynicism of an Aaron Burr as a narrator, that the great work of art would have allowed us to see that Burr was fundamentally right, wrong, and that the people whom he's traducing, mocking, maligning, they are, in fact, despite of their undoubted human foibles, which Burr can see, in which history has kind of alighted that they were great people in their own way, because great people are not perfect people. And the presence of imperfection, an ungainly waddle in the walk of the founder of the country, does not make him any less the founder of the country and does not make his heroic and self abnegating acts any less heroic and self abnegating. That the spiteful man sees only as far as the spiteful man can. And that can produce a work of art that is successful, but maybe not ultimately great. I don't know that that is a final answer to the question of the relationship between art and morality. I want to go back to Dan. I think we can think more hardly or accurately more powerfully about this through the prism of a novel like the Director, which I think is a more successful novel than Burr, a more powerful and maybe more enduring novel than Burr, but Burr as entertaining. If you haven't read it, it's worth a read. If you want to have a kind of mean view of the founding generation, it's a lot of fun. Just understand always that this is a limited work by a limited narrator in the hands of a limited artist. And so maybe the answer is actually the two. Art and morality may have more to do with one another than Gore Vidal ever imagined as he wrestled with his own limits, both as a man and as a as an artist. That's it for the David Frum show this week. Thank you so much for listening and for watching. As ever, if you're reminded to support the work of this podcast, the best way to do it is by subscribing to the Atlantic and supporting the work of all of my colleagues at the Atlantic. Thanks for watching and listening. See you next week. Bye bye. This episode of the David Frum show was produced by Nathaniel Frum and edited by Andrea Valdes. It was engineered by Dave Grine. Our theme is by Andrew Edwards. Claudine Abayad is the Executive producer of Atlantic Audio and Andrea Baldez is our Managing Editor.

D (52:21)

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B (52:38)

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